Leonard Bernstein, musical genius, 'pinko faggot' dies at age 72
John_Fereira
Jeff indicates that the inclusion of the fact that Bernstein was
gay is warrented because of the role model image that it would portray.
I disagree. It would seem to me that drawing attention to that fact
that he was gay wood look like "Leonard Bernstein was a great American
Composer even though he was gay". I don't see any reason that a
persons sexual orientation should detract nor enhance a persons ability
as a composer. Bernstein was a brilliant composer period.
--
John Fereira
john%hp-...@hplabs.hp.com or jo...@hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com
"Is that *all* you ever think about"?
Prof. Bradley Clymer
>
>RE: 10% of the population is gay.
>
>That's what I've heard too, but have always wondered where the figure came
>from. Also, people have told me that around 15% of university students
>are gay.
I've conducted my own (exhaustive :-) study. It's higher...
Honestly, I have a feeling that among college age males at least, there
are ALOT who are curious and interested and perhaps may act under the
cover of feigning drunkness that will never do anything again after they
graduate at marry. If you include these, it may be up around 20-30%.
Of course there are also the ones like me that thought it was just
a phase I was going through like experimenting with recreational
substances... but the phase never ended. Maybe that's why I still
think of myself being the age I was when I started coming out --
I don't want the phase to be over :-)
bradley
--
`It's a poor sort of memory that only |Internet: cly...@jete.eng.ohio-state.edu
works backwards,' the Queen remarked. |uucp(not reliable):
- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland |...osu-cis!jete.eng.ohio-state.edu!clymer
Frank Maloney
>
[deletions]
>Why? I simply cannot understand why it's so important that everyone
>should realize that Leonard Bernstein was gay. (Actually bisexual --
>he went into severe depression when his wife died in 1978, and he
>had three children.)
>
Why can't you put yourself in the position of those of us
who are still interested in finding role models, men and
women we can point to and say s/he is like me? Are you so
evolved in your own liberation that you've forgotten what
many of the rest of us feel? Or is it lack of imagination?
Bernstein's sexuality is important not for its gossip value,
but for the inspiration it offers to some of his admirers
and because it is part of his life and for the biographer
and the students of biography the information is part of
constructing an understanding of who Bernstein was.
>When I read the news of his death in Monday's newspaper, I had a hard
>time not crying. This man who had brought so much wonderful music
>to my life -- dead! Even now I can hardly believe it. I feel strongly
>for all those who loved him -- his children as well as any male lovers
>he may have had.
>
Myself, I was pissed as hell. The ass smoked himself to
death. Selfish, self-deluding bastard. Fucking waste.
--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
Disclaimer: Microsoft doesn't even know I have 3 middle names.
"He said, 'Vell, Zaphod's just zis this guy, you know?'"
Chapter 12, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
Frederic Maffray
You're "grumpily" upset at the mere mention that Bernstein
was gay or bisexual? Are you equally pissy when someone
mentions that Einstein was Jewish?
Morons.
---
Frederic Maffray, CNRS, LSD, IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
S7 b++ g l y- z/! n++ o x a u v* j++ "I'll dream about Canada."
Eric Holeman
writes:
>Why? I simply cannot understand why it's so important that everyone
>should realize that Leonard Bernstein was gay. (Actually bisexual --
>he went into severe depression when his wife died in 1978, and he
>had three children.)
Because if no mention of it is made, it's assumed that he was straight.
That's not the truth, and when you don't tell the truth, it's called
LYING.
And lying, as your mother hopefully taught you, is wrong.
>Did his sexual activity change one bit his musical genius?
No. Did you expect it might? (Think on that one for a bit.)
>Should I
>ask myself about all other people whom I admire, "I wonder if he [or she]
>is gay"?
Yes, definitely. I'm sure the list would surprise you.
>I just don't care!
I hear the sound of a nose being held. "So what if he's black? I just
don't care!" "Should I ask myself about all other people whom I admire,
'I wonder if he's Jewish?' I just don't care!"
Why is it, Edward, that you don't care to know if someone's gay?
>Frankly, I thought that this was what the gay rights supporters (of which
>I consider myself one, by the way) wanted -- to have everybody judged
>by their merits, and not by their sexual orientation. That's certainly
>the gist of the laws they want passed.
Laws, schmaws. Your laws don't do me a damn bit of good until I can
walk down the street without worrying that someone might be following
me with a baseball bat. They won't help me if I still have to worry
that I might be fired because my employer doesn't like queer folks.
None of which, I'm convinced, will change until being lesbian or gay
ceases to be treated as a dirty little secret that polite company
stays hushed about.
That, luv, is why it's important to know that Bernstein was queer.
Asmodeus
>But Eric Holeman's response really got on my nerves.
It was meant to; Eric is no more obligated to suffer fools gladly
than anyone else on this planet.
>I think Bernstein's sexual orientation is not particularly relevant. You
>may disagree, of course.
Bernstein himself would have disagreed; he was hardly a closet
case who fell back on the popular excuse of "privacy." And that
he would disagree renders yours entirely meaningless.
Like your life.
--
"You have provided no evidence that blacks are as intelligent as whites
on average, but you claim they are, so I would conclude that you are
prejudiced against white people." -- Peter M. Ullman
Edward Suranyi
>It was meant to; Eric is no more obligated to suffer fools gladly
>than anyone else on this planet.
[...]
>Bernstein himself would have disagreed; he was hardly a closet
>case who fell back on the popular excuse of "privacy." And that
>he would disagree renders yours entirely meaningless.
>Like your life.
Hold on here! If I have insulted or offended anybody by anything I have
said, I humbly apologize. Whatever I said, I certainly don't think I
deserved to be insulted like this. I think I've found the source of
our disagreement -- and believe me, it's actually quite a minor
disagreement. You see, the first poster was upset that Bernstein's
homosexuality wasn't mentioned at all the the articles he saw. In
the newspapers *I* saw, it *was* mentioned, generally in the same
paragraph that discussed his heterosexual life (wife, children). So
I thought the poster was upset because they didn't say *more* about
his homosexual life. I thought this was being a little nit-picky. I
certainly have no objection to his sex life being discussed. It just
didn't seem to me to be of primary importance. But it's not something
I have a strong feeling about. I just thought some of the posters were
getting a little carried away.
Incidentally, some people said that the papers should have said why
he refused a medal a few years ago. (He was protesting the government's
refusal to fund something related to AIDS; I'm afraid I forgot the
details.) Well again, many papers *did* mention this. Even such
a tiny local one as the _Tri-Valley Herald_ included it in the short
article they got from AP.
So you see, I don't think his sex life ought to be excluded from articles
about him. I was just surprised that that was the only thing people
were posting about when he died.
So for God's sake, why all the vitriol directed against me? I swear, I
have no ill feelings for anyone.
Ed Suranyi
e...@das.llnl.gov
Lazlo Nibble
> Jeff indicates that the inclusion of the fact that Bernstein was
> gay is warrented because of the role model image that it would portray.
> I disagree.
Too bad. The fact that the American media avoids mentioning the
existance of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people at every opportunity is
a crime. The fact that Bernstein was bi and proud should be reported
for a lot of reasons, not the least of which being that it was
important to HIM.
> It would seem to me that drawing attention to that fact that he was gay
> wood look like "Leonard Bernstein was a great American Composer even
> though he was gay".
It would certainly look that way to homophobes and idiots. It would
not look that way to anyone with an ounce of sense or humanity.
> I don't see any reason that a persons sexual orientation should detract
> nor enhance a persons ability as a composer.
Nobody is arguing that it does. What is being argued is the fact that
the gay-oriented side of his life was no less a part of him than the
straight-oriented side was, so if you're going to report in his
obituary that he had a wife and kids you DAMN well better not ignore
the fact that he also had male lovers . . . otherwise you are giving
credence to the myth that homosexuality is an "isolated aberration".
That myth is damaging the lives of far too many people by making them
feel like they're the only ones in the world who feel attracted to
people of their own gender. It's The Big Lie -- "Everybody's Straight"
-- and whether it's perpetuated through out-and-out untruth or just
through omission of pertinent facts it's *still* a lie.
You can give as many reasons as you like why Bernstein's bisexuality
"shouldn't" be mentioned. That doesn't change the fact that *he*
thought it *should*.
> "Is that *all* you ever think about"?
There's a lot more to being gay, bi, or lesbian than who you fuck, John.
Lazlo (la...@hydra.unm.edu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hat-up, youthful maniacs, and prepare for full-gooze bozo!
Eric Holeman
> I am thinking about this, Jeff. You have a point, a pretty good one in
>fact. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are taking the classic collectivist's
Oh goody...a Randroid!
>cop-out. Leonard's genius and his sexual orientation are not necessarily
>synonymous. Leonard's talent and his race are not necessarily synonymous.
>Leonard's ability and his taste for brussels sprouts are not necessarily
>synonymous.
Duh.
> Mr. Bernstein's achievements were his own and the homosexual community
>would be doing him a grave disservice if it were to demand equal recognition
>on his grave.
I doubt it will bother him any, but in case it should, exactly where do
you suggest we demand it?
>On the other hand, if LB specified that any eulogizing
>should emphasize his sexual preference, then the media is at fault.
Since he didn't make a big point of hiding anything while he was
alive, I suspect he wouldn't want to start now.
> Homosexuals in America would be far better served by emphasizing the
>moral and philosophical advantages of individualism and the rights of
>human individuals to choose their own sexual partners.
Thanks oodles. By the way, does your state have any sodomy laws?
If so, I trust you'll call your state rep. tomorrow and tell him
to get them repealed.
Owen Rowley
Dauber.
> > If the media
> >proclaims that Bernstein is a heterosexual, or even just implies that he is
> >heterosexual, it takes a potential role model away from the homosexual
> >community.
> >Think about it.
> I am thinking about this, Jeff. You have a point, a pretty good one in
> fact. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are taking the classic collectivist's
> cop-out. Leonard's genius and his sexual orientation are not necessarily
> synonymous. Leonard's talent and his race are not necessarily synonymous.
> Leonard's ability and his taste for brussels sprouts are not necessarily
> synonymous.
Well whether Bernstein was equally talented in the sexual arena as in
his music will have to be determined by someone with experience of both!
However it is well known that the *arts* have been traditionally
well stocked with homosexual people. Is there some causality that confers
artistic talent with a propensity to want sex with your own gender?
i doubt it!.. However i have speculated that artists are *creative* people,
and that perhaps we fail to understand that creativity does not have to stop
when you put down the medium of your art!
Perhaps artisticly minded people are creative with lots of areas of their
lives?. Perhaps the spark that goads them to experiment with color or sound,
also leads them to experiment with their other emotional outlets.
these speculations are really just mental exercises for us and i enjoy them,
I hope you do too.
But the point thats gotten lost in all of this disscussion, is that mass media
ignores us and our ways, and that this overt cover up of our existence and our
value, and our contributions, furthers the miss-understanding that we are
bad people with no value and nothing to contribute. Our invisibility is
really a ghetto ( concentration camp ?) . Yes the world out there can be
cruel, and it's damn annoying to have to fight for things that your neighbor
gets by default. ( take Lindsay's fight for a poster on an office door..
shhhheeeeesh... BTW good work Lindsay.. youve earned your fag-scout merit
badge of courage! wear it proudly)
After the oppression has become institutionalised the invisibility changes
from its overt causative form to a covert protective form. But its a sham.
A catch-22. The only way out of the game is to play a new game, thats whats
happening now with the new activist organisations.
The cusp period of this kind of change is always stressfull to those
who've become comfortable with their place in the game.
> Mr. Bernstein's achievements were his own and the homosexual community
> would be doing him a grave disservice if it were to demand equal recognition
> on his grave. On the other hand, if LB specified that any eulogizing
> should emphasize his sexual preference, then the media is at fault.
balderdash. LB was out, he made public statements of his homosexuality.
the mass media sanitised his lifestyle by not reporting it, or
under-reporting it.. that was a grave disservice.
> Homosexuals in America would be far better served by emphasizing the
> moral and philosophical advantages of individualism and the rights of
> human individuals to choose their own sexual partners.
I agree, and when a public figure attempts to communicate that message, it
conveniently winds up in the trash bin instead of in the *story*.
LUX .. owen
Rob Boldbear
>fact. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are taking the classic collectivist's
>cop-out. Leonard's genius and his sexual orientation are not necessarily
>synonymous. Leonard's talent and his race are not necessarily synonymous.
>Leonard's ability and his taste for brussels sprouts are not necessarily
>synonymous.
While "logical" people would see these facets of LB about as separate as
they are, gay and lebian children and young adults would benefit by
having known that LB was gay. Indirectly from the message that gay is
bad, many kids grow up thinking they can't be happy, productive and
successful adults if they are homosexual. Consequently they repress
their homosexuality or don't try to be happy, productive or successful
as they approach adulthood. Seriously, I have heard from a fwe gay
people things like, "I didn't think I could be gay and be a doctor, so I
didn't try to go to college." Milder versions of the same misconception
abound on an unconscious level.
In a posting I made only to soc.motss two weeks ago, is apropos:
When I was young (so young that I can't recall when it happened) I
remember that whenever there were televised concerts conducted by
Leonard Bernstein, our family would gather around the old b&w tv and
watch. We regarded him as a hero; I recall my parents mentioning him
being a Jew, something that we felt proud of.
I can't imagine how different my life would have been **if only** my
parents might have said with admiration, "Bernstein is gay and lives
with another man as his partner in life." If only!
> Homosexuals in America would be far better served by emphasizing the
>moral and philosophical advantages of individualism and the rights of
>human individuals to choose their own sexual partners.
You're confusing the use of famous gay people as role models for the
young and the closeted with arguments for gay civil rights and
liberation. I don't think any gay and lesbian organization is seriously
arguing for, say, including sexual orientation in civil rights
legislation on the basis that people like LB are gay. That's kinda
orthogonal to discussing the social value of famous openly gay and
lesbian people.
--
Rob Bernardo Mt. Diablo Software Solutions _ /
email: r...@mtdiablo.Concord.CA.US phone: (415) 827-4301 <_/><
S0/8 b-/+ g- l y- z- n o a-- u+ v-- j- P6 B2 f+ t- dvcv sv w- m+ r+ p /
"If religious institutions are going to suck on the public teat, they shouldn't talk while their mouths are full." - Jack Carroll
brou...@sask.usask.ca
> pri...@pawl.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>
>>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
>>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
>>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
> .
> .
> .
>
>
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
> conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
>
> A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
> of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
> Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
> a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
> pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
>
> This is a great loss to the world of classical music, and those who
> enjoyed Bernstein's music are saddended by his passing.
>
> Enough said.
>
>
>
> - Max
Not enough said! If the fact that he was gay/bisexual is not mentioned,
almost everyone assumes "he was straight". If the world is ever going to
realize that there ARE gay people out there who have important jobs and are
well respected by millions, then it is important that this be said.
Now enough said.
-- Darrell Broughton (306) 244-4782 Saskatoon SK CANADA -- not yet a .sig
Ron Buckmire
Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
TODAY has mentoined his sexual orientation by including the comment he
made about himself years ago when he called himself a 'pinko faggot', and
said that it was true. Of course the NY TIMES has the story on page1, but no
mention of Bernstein's orentation as far as I can tell. Bernstein himself was
not closeted, he did many AIDS fundraisers and was 'active' in the "community".
It just sort of annoys me that he will be considered 'heterosexual by default',
so that by not mentioning it, the media promulgates the myth that there are no
gay people. CNN is running the story in the first minute of every half-hour [
along with Gorbachev winning the Nobel Peace Prize, big surprise!] but they do
not mention it either... Just thought you'd like to know...
--
Ron Buckmire
Association To Save Madonna From Nuclear War [New York Chapter]
11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180
..uunet!rpi.edu!prince||pri...@rpitsmts.bitnet||pri...@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
Jack Hamilton
three-quarters of a page in the first section, and another article and
picture in the "Datebook" section.
The first section article said that he was "known for his emotional
embraces of both sexes". Otherwise they didn't mention anything. The
Examiner, the afternoon paper, will probably have more (for one thing,
they're a better paper, and for another thing, they're not as prudish).
My favorite reference to him, which I've mentioned here before, is in one
of the "Phil Andros" stories, where the hero meets a rising young american
conductor/composer, and they proceed to do various things which would
definitely not be printable in either paper. It would be interesting to
know whether the story has any basis in fact.
--
Jack Hamilton j...@netcom.uucp or netcom!j...@apple.com
William R. Herndon
>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
.
.
.
So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
This is a great loss to the world of classical music, and those who
enjoyed Bernstein's music are saddended by his passing.
Enough said.
- Max
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R. Herndon
Secure Computing Technology Corp. The opinions expressed are
mine, ALL MINE! HEH, HEH,
her...@sctc.com HEH, HEH!!!
(612) 482-7431
Mark A. Tapia
>
>
>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
>disease (emphysema, I think).
>mention of Bernstein's orentation as far as I can tell.
>
B15) mentions his orientation: (quoted without permission)
A discordant note sounded in 1989 when he refused to accept a medal
from the Bush Administration, appraently as a protest against what
he regarded as censorship of an aids exhibit by the National Endowment for
the Arts. Like many other artists and public figures, he contributed his
services at concerts to benefit the fight against aids.
Mr. Bernstein's private life, long the subject of rumors in the musical
world, became an open book in 1987 when his homosexuality was brought
to wide public attention by Joan Peyser's "Bernstein: A Biography."
...........
Yes, the cause of death was a heart attack caused by progressive lung failure,
the result of emphysema, pulmonary infections and a pleural tumor.
Debbie Jue
>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
The San Jose Mercury News ( Knight Ridder service) mentions that he might
be considered bisexual.. they go on to say that he adored his wife and was
very close to his children and family...
>--
>Ron Buckmire
>Association To Save Madonna From Nuclear War [New York Chapter]
>11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180
>..uunet!rpi.edu!prince||pri...@rpitsmts.bitnet||pri...@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
debbie jue
--
Deborah A. Jue Diasonics, Inc. (408) 432-9000 ext. 1307
uucp: {3comvax|cygnet}!diasonx!debbie
arpa:"diasonx!debbie"@vax.dsd.3com.com
"Only my fiendish little fingers know what they're up to..."
David R Preston
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
< conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
<
< A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
< of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
< Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
< a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
< pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
Yes, but I think he would have wanted them to mention that part of his life,
especially as a self-proclaimed "pinko faggot", and as someone who refused
a presidential medal as a protest. When I heard that he had cancelled all
of his performances except an upcoming AIDS benefit, I was hopeful that he
was planning on using his celebrity status as an AIDS and gay rights
activist ("Hello, I'm Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, and I'm queer,
so get over it" - "This has been a public service advertisement brought to
you by Queer Nation and the Ad Council"). Being retired would have given
him a little more leeway in being outspoken....
-david
pre...@lll-crg.llnl.gov
B4 f+ t- k+ s-/+ r P8/3 S6 b+/- g- l-/+ y- z/! n o+/++ x a+ u v-- j++
D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
Rev. J. B. Bell
>
>>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
>>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
>>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
> .
> .
> .
>
>
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
> conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
>
> A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
> of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
Ah, but that's the *point*, you see. A person in this heterosexist
world all too often *cannot* distinguish themself independently of
their sexual orientation. The common belief is that if you're gay,
lesbian, or bisexual (as in Bernstein's case), there's something
"wrong" with you, and this is a stain on any of your achievements.
> Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
> a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
> pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
>
> This is a great loss to the world of classical music, and those who
> enjoyed Bernstein's music are saddended by his passing.
>
> Enough said.
>
Not hardly enough. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.
I agree that Bernstein, or anyone who excels at what they do, should
be recognized for what they did. However, being in a sexual minority
is not just like being heterosexual. It makes a very profound
difference in one's life, and the papers' inadequate coverage of his
*real* life in the obit's, was, well, inadequate. I don't hear you
bitching about the obit. mentioning that he had a wife and children--
so if they include that, why not also mention, in as reasonable a
fashion, that he had male lovers too? To omit something which was *as
significant* to him as his wife is just plain bad reporting.
It also serves as a counter to the attitude I mentioned above. For me
personally as a bisexual, and to many others I am sure, it is very
encouraging. It says that I can be something which my society
constantly tells me is vile, nasty, sinful, unnatural, etc., etc., and
*still* achieve greatness.
> - Max
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>William R. Herndon
>Secure Computing Technology Corp. The opinions expressed are
> mine, ALL MINE! HEH, HEH,
>her...@sctc.com HEH, HEH!!!
>(612) 482-7431
I could say more, but do you see what I am getting at?
--Rev. J. B. Bell
Lori Barfield
>It just sort of annoys me that he will be considered 'heterosexual by default',
>so that by not mentioning it, the media promulgates the myth that there are no
Did they mention whether or not he was Jewish? Vegetarian?
Anti-vivisectionist? I'm sure these groups would also like
more air play.
[Just random examples; I've no clue what his leanings were.]
...lori
Tim Scott
>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
>TODAY has mentoined his sexual orientation by including the comment he
>made about himself years ago when he called himself a 'pinko faggot', and
>said that it was true. Of course the NY TIMES has the story on page1, but no
>mention of Bernstein's orentation as far as I can tell. Bernstein himself was
>not closeted, he did many AIDS fundraisers and was 'active' in the "community".
>
>It just sort of annoys me that he will be considered 'heterosexual by default',
>so that by not mentioning it, the media promulgates the myth that there are no
>gay people. CNN is running the story in the first minute of every half-hour [
>along with Gorbachev winning the Nobel Peace Prize, big surprise!] but they do
>not mention it either... Just thought you'd like to know...
>
Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
Pal, it sort of annoys ME that the only thing that appears to interest
you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
Grumpily,
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tim P Scott . . sending from: Spectragraphics Corp.
9707 Waples St., San Diego CA 92121 [USA]+619-587-6834
Try: sc...@spectra.com or ...{ucsd!}nosc!spectra!scott
Steve Dyer
>Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
No it's not. Take a bow, jerk.
--
Steve Dyer
dy...@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
dy...@arktouros.mit.edu, dy...@hstbme.mit.edu
Steve Dyer
>Did they mention whether or not he was Jewish?
I can't imagine a more moronic comment.
> Vegetarian?
>Anti-vivisectionist? I'm sure these groups would also like more air play.
What planet are you on anyway?
>[Just random examples; I've no clue what his leanings were.]
No you obviously haven't. That he was gay was not a particular secret.
Nick Nussbaum
William Herndon writes, about the mention of Bernstein being gay:
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
> conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
> A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
> of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
> Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
> a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
> pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
Bernstein was a great musician, independent of his religious or sexual
orientation. He was also a great musician incorporating his religious
sexual and emotional natures. You can interpret "Kaddish Symphony" as
an abstract set of sounds, but it informs interpretation to know the
jewish cultural references. In a similar fashion, it is at least as
interesting to know his sexual orientation as his nationality in
appreciating his work. To often this information about
sexuality is obliterated by censors if the person is gay, on the grounds
that it's irrelevant or a nasty secret. Art can be
interpreted in many ways, some of which reflect the context of it's creation.
Nick Nussbaum PO 68 - MIT Branch
n...@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu Cambridge, MA 02139
C J Silverio
sc...@spectra.com (Tim Scott) writes:
|In article <#%Z%6T&@rpi.edu> pri...@pawl.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
|>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
|>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
|>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual).
|Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
You might win it, but Ron Buckmire sure won't.
The point is this: here was a man who accomplished a
lot who happened to be gay. He was a great man, and he
was gay, and no amount of sputtering from revisionist
homophobes can change either fact. People need to get
that message from the media.
---
cj%modern...@sgi.com C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you
shine on it, the more it will contract." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Rob Boldbear
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
> conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
So is that the *only* thing obituaries should mention about him?
> A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
> of their sexual orientation.
Absolutely true. But that's not the point. Obituaries are not supposed
to mention only one thing about the deceased's life. Additionally, of
all of Bernstein's obits that I have read or heard that *did* mention
about his social life covered up his sexual orientation. That's
tantamount to rewriting history. And furthermore it does a grave
disservice to young gay people who would greatly benefit from knowing
that a great person was gay. (It would be even better if the great
person was *openly* gay, but that's another posting.)
--
Rob Bernardo Mt. Diablo Software Solutions _ /
email: r...@mtdiablo.Concord.CA.US phone: (415) 827-4301 <_/><
S0/8 b-/+ g- l y- z- n o a-- u+ v-- j- P6 B3 f+ t- dvcv sv w- m+ r+ p /
"There is no right 'not to be offended'." -Bob Culmer
Smegabucks
>In article <11...@hacgate.UUCP> lo...@hacgate.UUCP (Lori Barfield) writes:
>>Did they mention whether or not he was Jewish?
>
>I can't imagine a more moronic comment.
I have refrained from getting into this discussion, but Mr. Dyer,
you've really fucked up on this one. (I usually quite enjoy your
postings, too.) The media is notoriously selective. "All the news
that's fit to print" is too often equivalent to "all the news we feel
like printing or wouldn't offend too many of our advertisers." Wake
up and smell the coffee. Just because his name was "Bernstein" doesn't
make him Jewish, anyway.
>> Vegetarian?
>>Anti-vivisectionist? I'm sure these groups would also like more air play.
>
>What planet are you on anyway?
Uncalled for rudeness!
>>[Just random examples; I've no clue what his leanings were.]
>
>No you obviously haven't. That he was gay was not a particular secret.
Yes, but plenty of people probably were ignorant of it, and the fact
that the media conspired to keep it that way doesn't surprise me in
the least. Lori had a pretty valid point - any news media must be
selective, and omitting details to make something more palatable is
nothing new. I'm glad she noticed it. You seem to be too riled to
think rationally about it. Why is that?
+---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+
| | |\ | j...@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, |
| \|on |/rukman | -Fight The Power- | and you need everything we make. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Ron Rizzo
inquires:
> Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
A big difference, especially in Bernstein's case. It had a major effect
on his career and marriage. Read Joan Peyser's biography.
Regards,
Ron
"Pappageno was an android."
Jeff Dauber
>>It just sort of annoys me that he will be considered 'heterosexual by default',
>>so that by not mentioning it, the media promulgates the myth that there are no
>>gay people. CNN is running the story in the first minute of every half-hour [
>>along with Gorbachev winning the Nobel Peace Prize, big surprise!] but they do
>>not mention it either... Just thought you'd like to know...
>>
>>Ron Buckmire
>
>Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
>
>Pal, it sort of annoys ME that the only thing that appears to interest
>you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
>Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
This is the standard heterosexual response to a homosexuals desire for role
models. If it becomes obvious to the majority of Americans that 10% of the
population are homosexual, maybe people will stop attacking us for no
reason. To top it off, when you are a young homosexual, trying to come to
terms with your sexuality, it is nice to know that there are people in the
"real" world who are respected who are also homosexuals. If the media
proclaims that Bernstein is a heterosexual, or even just implies that he is
heterosexual, it takes a potential role model away from the homosexual
community.
Think about it.
Jeff
-FWA
William R. Herndon
>This is the standard heterosexual response to a homosexuals desire for role
>models. If it becomes obvious to the majority of Americans that 10% of the
>population are homosexual, maybe people will stop attacking us for no
>reason. To top it off, when you are a young homosexual, trying to come to
>terms with your sexuality, it is nice to know that there are people in the
>"real" world who are respected who are also homosexuals. If the media
>proclaims that Bernstein is a heterosexual, or even just implies that he is
>heterosexual, it takes a potential role model away from the homosexual
>community.
>Think about it.
Every single person who has responded to the original posting on this
topic knows of Bernstein's homosexuality, and I think that we are safe
in assuming that potential homosexual readers are capable of deciding
for themselves whether he is a good role model for them to emulate.
They do not need the press to ram it down their throats. Others who
might require to the press to spell it out for them, are not likely to
even know who Leonard Bernstein was, and are therefore incapable of
identifying with him anyway.
Failure of the press to state that Bernstein was a homosexual does not
and cannot imply that he is a heterosexual. Quite the contrary, it
implies absolutely nothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R. Herndon her...@sctc.com
"We are all slaves to routine."
- Calvin
Edward Suranyi
>---
>sc...@spectra.com (Tim Scott) writes:
>|Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
> You might win it, but Ron Buckmire sure won't.
I don't know. I kind of agree with Tim Scott's point, although
I wouldn't have put it like he did.
> The point is this: here was a man who accomplished a
> lot who happened to be gay. He was a great man, and he
> was gay, and no amount of sputtering from revisionist
> homophobes can change either fact. People need to get
> that message from the media.
Why? I simply cannot understand why it's so important that everyone
should realize that Leonard Bernstein was gay. (Actually bisexual --
he went into severe depression when his wife died in 1978, and he
had three children.)
When I read the news of his death in Monday's newspaper, I had a hard
time not crying. This man who had brought so much wonderful music
to my life -- dead! Even now I can hardly believe it. I feel strongly
for all those who loved him -- his children as well as any male lovers
he may have had.
I never thought about his private life before his death -- why should I?
Did his sexual activity change one bit his musical genius? Should I
ask myself about all other people whom I admire, "I wonder if he [or she]
is gay"? I just don't care!
Frankly, I thought that this was what the gay rights supporters (of which
I consider myself one, by the way) wanted -- to have everybody judged
by their merits, and not by their sexual orientation. That's certainly
the gist of the laws they want passed.
Incidentally, several people gave the impression here that newspapers
ignored Bernstein's bisexuality entirely in their obituaries. That
isn't true. All the major newspapers mentioned it. They didn't
spend much space on it, true. But neither did they spend much space
on his heterosexual life, except to say that he left three children.
By far most of the space, justifiably, was spent describing his
career.
Ed Suranyi
e...@das.llnl.gov
Jess Anderson
> Failure of the press to state that Bernstein was a homosexual does not
> and cannot imply that he is a heterosexual. Quite the contrary, it
> implies absolutely nothing.
In *our* world, it implies a considerable number of things,
despite your apparent insensitivity to the fact.
> "We are all slaves to routine."
Study this item from your own .sig and wake up.
--
Jess Anderson Madison Academic Computing Center University of Wisconsin
Work: Rm. 3130, 1210 West Dayton St., Madison WI 53706, Ph. 608/262-5888
Home: 2838 Stevens St., 53705, 608/238-4833 Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Internet: ande...@macc.wisc.edu UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
Ron Buckmire
>In article <#%Z%6T&@rpi.edu> pri...@pawl.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>>
[my posting on the death of Leonard Bernstein and the media's refusal to
mention his true sexual orientation by bolstering the perception that there
are no famous homosexuals deleted]
>Well, here's the winner of the stupidest posting of the week award.
Why is it stupid? Well, at least I won an award, I guess "you really like
me, you really really do!" :-)
>Pal, it sort of annoys ME that the only thing that appears to interest
>you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
>Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
The reason it makes a DIFFERENCE, *PAL*, is that by fostering the notion
that homosexuality was a marginal part of his life, the media makes the
point thta homosexuals are marginal parts of society and do not deserve
the same respect or protection as heterosexuals. This results in extreme
discrimination against people everywhere because of their sexual orientation
which is manifested in horrific crimes against homosexuals that do not get
reported, or if reported do not get dealt with in the asme manner if the
victim KILLED, MAIMED or ASSAULTED were straight. That's what the difference
is!
Ron Buckmire
> topic knows of Bernstein's homosexuality, and I think that we are safe
> in assuming that potential homosexual readers are capable of deciding
> for themselves whether he is a good role model for them to emulate.
> They do not need the press to ram it down their throats. Others who
> might require to the press to spell it out for them, are not likely to
> even know who Leonard Bernstein was, and are therefore incapable of
> identifying with him anyway.
down the fact that Bernstein is dead. The people watching will get the
mesage that a great musical genius died, and that he was gay, that should
make them think, because the media never tells them about gay people!
> Failure of the press to state that Bernstein was a homosexual does not
> and cannot imply that he is a heterosexual. Quite the contrary, it
> implies absolutely nothing.
This is a stunning statement! They mention that he had a wife and kids and
it doesn't imply he was heterosexual? Do you really believe what you are
writing? I'm trying to make the point that we must not give in to the
media revisionism of 'heterosexual by default'.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>William R. Herndon her...@sctc.com
> "We are all slaves to routine."
> - Calvin
Ron Buckmire
>Frankly, I thought that this was what the gay rights supporters (of which
>I consider myself one, by the way) wanted -- to have everybody judged
>by their merits, and not by their sexual orientation. That's certainly
>the gist of the laws they want passed.
Yes, this is true. But those laws have only been passed in TWO out of FIFTY
states! [bonus points if YOU know which two] Until the time that the laws
are passed in all the states there IS discrimination and a person's sexual
orientation is important. It is IMPORTANT to show people that gay people DO
exist in numbers in this country, and that they can achieve great things
and that discrimination against them is as evil as discrimination on the
basis of sex,race or religion!
>Incidentally, several people gave the impression here that newspapers
>ignored Bernstein's bisexuality entirely in their obituaries. That
>isn't true. All the major newspapers mentioned it. They didn't
>spend much space on it, true. But neither did they spend much space
>on his heterosexual life, except to say that he left three children.
>By far most of the space, justifiably, was spent describing his
>career.
Not true! What does 'all the major newspapers' mean? It was not mentioned
AT ALL in the Boston Globe I read. I got the information initially from CNN
and it was their mention of his former wife and grieving children that
caused me to write the posting in the first place. All they had to say, was
something like "although bisexual, Mr. Bernstein was married and had 3 kids".
Or they could have mentioned why he had refused the Presidential Medal Of
Honor last year. SOMETHING!
Laurie Mann
> It just sort of annoys me that he will be considered 'heterosexual by default',
> so that by not mentioning it, the media promulgates the myth that there are no
> gay people. CNN is running the story in the first minute of every half-hour [
> along with Gorbachev winning the Nobel Peace Prize, big surprise!] but they do
> not mention it either... Just thought you'd like to know...
Well, he was a "practicing hetero" for most of his life, was married,
and had some children. I don't think the New York Times makes a point
of mentioning people's sexual orientation. I think Bernstein's sexuality
was briefly mentioned in a 60 Minutes interview a few years ago.
*** Laurie Mann ** lm...@jjmhome.UUCP ** lm...@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com ***
*** Work like hell *** Tell everyone everything you know ***
*** Close a deal with a handshake ** Have fun ** Doc Edgerton 1903-1990 ***
Mike Rizzi
> topic knows of Bernstein's homosexuality,
um...perhaps, just maybe, some of us that didn't
respond to the original posting (like myself)
were NOT aware of Berstein's orientation.
I have had a little education, no thanks to the
press, BTW.
> They do not need the press to ram it down their throats.
What about folks who don't read this newsgroup?
> Others who might require the press to spell it out for them,
> are not likely to even know who Leonard Bernstein was, and are
> therefore incapable of identifying with him anyway.
^^^^^^^^^
whoa...is it?...YES, it's...it's...it's a quantum leap in reasoning!
mike
--
"Rock and Roll is phony and false, and it's sung, written, and played
for the most part by cretinous goons." - Frank Sinatra, 1957
========================= ...!apple!mas1!rizzi ==========================
Jeff Kain
>on his career and marriage. Read Joan Peyser's biography.
No, don't read it. It is a sensationalist piece of crap. While it
does have a few interesting stories, you can learn a lot more about
Leonard Bernstein in a lot of other places.
"We create a leader by locating one in the crowd who is standing up. [...] We
designate this victim as a 'stand-up guy' by the simple expedient of
sitting down around him."
-Arturo Binewski
Asmodeus
>Think about it.
You're clapping for Tinkerbell, Jeff.
--
"You have provided no evidence that blacks are as intelligent as whites
on average, but you claim they are, so I would conclude that you are
prejudiced against white people." -- Peter M. Ullman
Asmodeus
>No, don't read it. It is a sensationalist piece of crap. While it
>does have a few interesting stories, you can learn a lot more about
>Leonard Bernstein in a lot of other places.
Yes, indeed. He came here every year to give studio classes
(here being not Boston, but IU-Bloomington) and one could learn a
great deal about him by talking to him.
About every night at the local gay bar.
Laurie Mann
> Bernstein was a great musician, independent of his religious or sexual
> orientation. He was also a great musician incorporating his religious
> sexual and emotional natures. You can interpret "Kaddish Symphony" as
> an abstract set of sounds, but it informs interpretation to know the
> jewish cultural references. In a similar fashion, it is at least as
> interesting to know his sexual orientation as his nationality in
> appreciating his work. To often this information about
> sexuality is obliterated by censors if the person is gay, on the grounds
> that it's irrelevant or a nasty secret. Art can be
> interpreted in many ways, some of which reflect the context of it's creation.
I think Bernstein will go down as one of the only serious American
composers. His range as a composer alone was astonishing. The music for
West Side Story is some of the finest for an American musical. I sang his
"Chichester Psalms" when I was in high school. It's an amazing work,
completely different from anything else of his, and it has some of the most
unique orchestrations I've ever heard.
Unlike most other conductors/composers of his generation, on thing I
loved about Bernstein was his approachability. Unlike, say Van Karian
or Stokowski (probably spelled wrong), Bernstein always gave me the
impression of someone you could go out and have a beer with.
Back to the issue of "role models" for a minute----he was a terrific role
model, for almost any one, for almost any reason (well, not for non-smokers,
but WTH).
Steve Dyer
>Well, he was a "practicing hetero" for most of his life, was married,
>and had some children. I don't think the New York Times makes a point
>of mentioning people's sexual orientation. I think Bernstein's sexuality
>was briefly mentioned in a 60 Minutes interview a few years ago.
He was a practicing fucking homo for most of his life. too.
Rob Boldbear
>you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
Don't be silly. It was the only thing his *posting* was about, but I
doubt it was the only thing he saw of interest in Bernstein.
>Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
Under what rock have you been hiding?
1. Being gay is more than just the matter of the gender of
people one has sex with.
a. Being gay, for most people, has to do with one's
romantic life and home life, as does heterosexuality
for heterosexuals. While sex lives are generally
not considered relevant in obituaries, romantic life
and home life generally are. In fact the heterosexual
aspects of Bernstein's romantic and home life were
often mentioned in recent obituaries.
b. Society makes it a larger matter simply because
society pretends that gay people don't exist,
shouldn't exist, or are heterosexual by default.
2. Because of point 1b, a famous person's being gay is an
important political and social fact about the person.
3. Because of point 1b, a famous person's being gay is
important to people who are gay and to people who
care about the welfare of gay people in our society.
After you've read this a few times, do us a favor and crawl back under
your rock.
R o d Johnson
>I think Bernstein will go down as one of the only serious American
>composers.
Whaaaaat!?
Laurie, no offense, but this betrays a certain ignorance of American
music. What about Charles Ives, to name probably THE great American
composer? Or Elliot Carter, Milton Babbitt, John Cage, Aaron (yech)
Copeland, Roger Sessions, Virgil Thompson, Terry Riley, Morton
Feldman, George Crumb, LaMonte Young, Steve Reich, the ubiquitous
Philip Glass, the egregious George Gershwin, Charles Wuorinen? Not to
mention guys like Duke Ellington or Charles Seeger, who, no matter
what you think of the genre of music they worked in, certainly made
their mark as "serious composers". The US is not a musical wasteland,
especially not during the last few decades, when Bernstein was merely
one composer among many, albeit a popular one.
--
Rod Johnson * rjoh...@vela.acs.oakland.edu * (313) 650 2315
"Next week: ROME FALLS" -- Guy Debord
William R. Herndon
>In article <1990Oct17.1...@sctc.com> her...@sctc.com (William R. Herndon) writes:
>> Failure of the press to state that Bernstein was a homosexual does not
>> and cannot imply that he is a heterosexual. Quite the contrary, it
>> implies absolutely nothing.
>In *our* world, it implies a considerable number of things,
>despite your apparent insensitivity to the fact.
I don't know about this. When I meet a person for the first time, I
don't make any assumptions about their sexual orientation. Do you?
- Max
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R. Herndon
Secure Computing Technology Corp. The opinions expressed are
mine, ALL MINE! HEH, HEH,
her...@sctc.com HEH, HEH!!!
(612) 482-7431
Keith Heckert
* yawn *
thank you very little,
"Annoyed"
r l reid
>I never thought about his private life before his death -- why should I?
>Did his sexual activity change one bit his musical genius? Should I
>ask myself about all other people whom I admire, "I wonder if he [or she]
>is gay"? I just don't care!
Of course, *you* have no obligation to care. But some of us do.
And remember, we are talking about
his obituary here, not his music - his music was certainly a major
part of his life, but so were the people he loved - both belong
in an obit, along with where he was born and his hobbies
and his favorite charities.
Finally, what effect might this have had on his music? I don't know.
But I do know a number of perfomers and composers whose work
really blossomed only after they came out - the freedom to express
their sexuality carried over into a freedom of musical
expression.
Ro
Paul Sop
RE: 10% of the population is gay.
That's what I've heard too, but have always wondered where the figure came
from. Also, people have told me that around 15% of university students
are gay.
While this figure inspires me to do statistical calculations on the probability
of a gay dude sitting around me in one of my lectures, I'd still like to know
how it came about :-)
It would be good to know the age of the surveys/reports/whatever too. There
are some old statistical reports that gave quotes of around 1 in 20, which
I think is a pretty bogus result (or are the number of homoxexuals increasing?)
Later
John_Fereira
>In article <11...@hacgate.UUCP> lo...@hacgate.UUCP (Lori Barfield) writes:
>>Did they mention whether or not he was Jewish?
>
>I can't imagine a more moronic comment.
>
has a valid point that by not mentioning Bernstiens sexual orientation
the "default" would seem to be heterosexual. I disagree with the
necessity of "displaying" that he was gay though. His religous beliefs
are just as unimportant.
>> Vegetarian?
>>Anti-vivisectionist? I'm sure these groups would also like more air play.
>
>What planet are you on anyway?
>
If you have an opinion on the issue, state it. Don't resort to name
calling as it adds nothing to the discussion.
--
John Fereira
john%hp-...@hplabs.hp.com or jo...@hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com
"Is that *all* you ever think about"?
Edward Suranyi
>e...@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi) writes:
>>Incidentally, several people gave the impression here that newspapers
>>ignored Bernstein's bisexuality entirely in their obituaries. That
>>isn't true. All the major newspapers mentioned it.
>Not true! What does 'all the major newspapers' mean? It was not mentioned
>AT ALL in the Boston Globe I read.
It was mentioned in the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and the
San Francisco Chronicle. I believe it was also mentioned in the San
Francisco Examiner and the San Jose Mercury News. I admit that I
didn't see the Boston Globe. Nor did I see any of the TV news
reports.
Ed Suranyi
e...@das.llnl.gov
Paula J Freedman
>>you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
>>Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
>
>This is the standard heterosexual response to a homosexuals desire for role
>models. If it becomes obvious to the majority of Americans that 10% of the
>population are homosexual, maybe people will stop attacking us for no
jeff -- leonard bernstein (is/was) a role model. i think so, and i never
wondered about his sexual orientation. after hearing this "news" today for
the first time, my opinion is not swayed for better or worse. There is a
tendency on this board to make judgements based on criteria outside of the
actual music. it's rather hypocritical to say that this is o.k. as long as the
artist in question is homo- or bisexual. do you like his music? before or
after you found out that he was bisexual?
furthermore, do not assume that everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is
heterosexual and/or homophobic.
Jeff Dauber
>>>Pal, it sort of annoys ME that the only thing that appears to interest
>>>you about this great artist is what gender of people he had sex with.
>>>Jesus Christ-- What the f**k difference does it make??
>>
>>This is the standard heterosexual response to a homosexuals desire for role
>>models. If it becomes obvious to the majority of Americans that 10% of the
>>population are homosexual, maybe people will stop attacking us for no
>>reason...
>
>jeff -- leonard bernstein (is/was) a role model. i think so, and i never
>wondered about his sexual orientation. after hearing this "news" today for
>the first time, my opinion is not swayed for better or worse. There is a
>tendency on this board to make judgements based on criteria outside of the
>actual music. it's rather hypocritical to say that this is o.k. as long as the
>artist in question is homo- or bisexual. do you like his music? before or
>after you found out that he was bisexual?
I am not judging his music at all. Bernstein was a brilliant man. If
people associate the fact that there are homosexuals in the real world is
important. It is important to young homosexuals because it gives them
someone to look up to who is a homosexual. It gives people who have no
contact with homosexuals a famous and respected person who they can
respect who is a homosexual.
What I am saying has nothing to do with his music (why am I posting this
here? this is where it started). What I am trying to say is that by
denying that Bernstein was a homosexual, you do a great disservice to the
homosexual community.
>furthermore, do not assume that everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is
>heterosexual and/or homophobic.
I don't know how you got this assumption from what I said. I did not
accuse anyone of homophobia or for that matter of being a heterosexual.
What I did say is that there are homophobes in existence, there are also
heterosexuals in existence.
By using the "heterosexual by default" method of discussing people, you
take away from the homosexual community.
Jeff
-FWA
Prvt USA
On Tuesday, October 16, 1990 at 6:13:44 AM UTC-7, William R. Herndon wrote:
> pri...@pawl.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
> >Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
> >disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
> >obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual). So far, only USA
> .
> .
> .
>
> So what!? Leonard Bernstein was not "The greatest gay American
> conductor". He was the greatest American conductor. Period!
> A person should be able to distinguish his/herself independantly
> of their sexual orientation. The important point is that Leonard
> Bernstein, a man acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest conductors,
> a composer, and a man who had a unique and very special way of inter-
> pretenting the works of composers such as Mahler and Coleland, has died.
> This is a great loss to the world of classical music, and those who
> enjoyed Bernstein's music are saddended by his passing.
> Enough said.
Edward Walter
> ---
> sc...@spectra.com (Tim Scott) writes:
> |>Over the weekend Leonard Bernstein, famous conductor, died of some lung
> |>disease (emphysema, I think). It should be interesting to see what the
> |>obituaries say. Leonard Bernstein was gay(or bisexual).
> lot who happened to be gay. He was a great man, and he
> was gay, and no amount of sputtering from revisionist
> homophobes can change either fact. People need to get
> that message from the media.
> cj%modern...@sgi.com C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
> "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you
> shine on it, the more it will contract." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.