Genesis' "ahhh" machine
Andy Tefft
all the rap-bashing, mtv-bashing, etc. that is going on around here
nowadays.
Whatever happened to Genesis's "ahh" machine? The synth that sounds
like a chorus of people singing "ahhhhh.... ahhhhh..." and is most
prevalent on Selling England by the Pound, Trick of the Tail (most
notably at the end of the album), and Wind & Wuthering (esp. in
"Afterglow").
Was that a dedicated keyboard or a program on the synth (did they
have programmable synths in 1976?)?
Did Marillion buy the "ahh" machine? Did anyone else borrow it?
I'm kind of interested in hearing other uses of this wonderful
instrument.
At first, I thought it was a chorus of children singing "ahhh" but
the sound was just too perfect. At any rate, it has to be the
most innovative use of an instrument in popular music since
the flute.
In fact, I'd kind of like to learn to play the "ahhh" machine.
I wonder if there's one for sale anywhere?
Valentino Herrera
>Whatever happened to Genesis's "ahh" machine? The synth that sounds
>like a chorus of people singing "ahhhhh.... ahhhhh..." and is most
>prevalent on Selling England by the Pound, Trick of the Tail (most
>notably at the end of the album), and Wind & Wuthering (esp. in
>"Afterglow").
I believe you're referring to the Mellotron. A keyboard instrument
that uses tape loops to recreate sounds. It used to be used by
70's progreesive rock bands (King Crimson, Genesis, Moody Blues,
etc.) but has decreased drastically in popularity since more
programmable, lightweight and adaptable synthesizers came into
existance. There was a time when the only sythesizers around
were the Mellotron, the Mini-Moog and the ARP Odyssey. The
Mellotron, like the Hammond Organ, is a big, heavy thing to
lug around.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Valentino Herrera Tegra/Varityper tegra!her...@ulowell.edu |
| "And the meek shall inherit s**t" |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Sandra Galejs
> I just thought I'd post something slightly frivolous in contrast to
> all the rap-bashing, mtv-bashing, etc. that is going on around here
> nowadays.
>
> Whatever happened to Genesis's "ahh" machine? The synth that sounds
> like a chorus of people singing "ahhhhh.... ahhhhh..." and is most
> prevalent on Selling England by the Pound, Trick of the Tail (most
> notably at the end of the album), and Wind & Wuthering (esp. in
> "Afterglow").
Could you be thinking of the Mellotron? It was a progressive-rock
instrument, common in the pre-digital-synth days, which actually used
prerecorded tapes to get that chorus-of-angels effect: first-era King Crimson
used a ton of Mellotron.
Any real musicians out there who can confirm or deny this? Or explain
in more detail how a Mellotron works?
space is the place,
Sandra Galejs (gal...@cg-atla.agfa.com)
Scott Amspoker
>like a chorus of people singing "ahhhhh.... ahhhhh..." and is most
>prevalent on Selling England by the Pound, Trick of the Tail (most
>notably at the end of the album), and Wind & Wuthering (esp. in
>"Afterglow").
I agree. It is certainly one the classic sounds of the art rock era.
The instrument you are hearing is called a "Mellotron". It was
used a lot in the late 60s through the 70s (originally made
popular by the Moody Blues). It was a keyboard instrument in
which each key, when pressed, activated a tape recording. The
tape for each key had about an 8-second recording of a real instrument
playing that particular note. When the key is released, a spring
quickly returned the tape back to the beginning. (If you listen
carefully, you can sometimes hear the keyboardist hit the end
of the tape and have to release the keys and press them again).
A typical Mellotron (as used by Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, and
many others) had a set of tapes that provided 3 different "sounds"
which could be independantly turned on and off. Many sounds were
available but certainly the two most popular were the human choir
and strings (Genesis used the Mellotron strings quite a bit
also). (side note: the "ahhh" sound you hear on Afterglow sounds
more like Phil Collins that it does the Mellotron).
Mellotrons provided a valuable musical resource for many progressive
bands because the synthesizers of the day simply could not produce
a convincing human choir and only partially convincing strings.
However, as you might imagine, they were a mechanical nightmare
and prone to breaking down a lot. Also, they could not be
played very fast so they were used mainly for sustained chords.
There were some attempts over the years to build an electronic
keyboard substitute for the most popular Mellotron sounds. The
most successful was probably Roland's VP330 (1981) which produced
a surprisingly good choir sound although not as nice as the standard
Mellotron choir. At least it provided a practical alternative for
bands on the road.
Today, musicians use digital samplers which are fundamentally
nothing more than "digital Mellotrons". Most strings and choir
sounds you hear today are samples of the real thing rather than
synthesized. (The closest thing I've heard to the classical
Genisis "ahhh" sound is on the Kurzweil sample players).
Hope this answers your question.
--
Scott Amspoker
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM
(505) 345-5232
unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
Mark Dadgar
[edit]
>I agree. It is certainly one the classic sounds of the art rock era.
>The instrument you are hearing is called a "Mellotron". It was
>used a lot in the late 60s through the 70s (originally made
>popular by the Moody Blues). It was a keyboard instrument in
>which each key, when pressed, activated a tape recording. The
>tape for each key had about an 8-second recording of a real instrument
>playing that particular note. When the key is released, a spring
>quickly returned the tape back to the beginning. (If you listen
>carefully, you can sometimes hear the keyboardist hit the end
>of the tape and have to release the keys and press them again).
[edit]
>Mellotrons provided a valuable musical resource for many progressive
>bands because the synthesizers of the day simply could not produce
>a convincing human choir and only partially convincing strings.
>However, as you might imagine, they were a mechanical nightmare
>and prone to breaking down a lot. Also, they could not be
>played very fast so they were used mainly for sustained chords.
I heard an interesting story once about a Mellotron and the Moody
Blues (mentioned in above quoted article, but I deleted that
paragraph by mistake). It seems that the Blues were all set to
go on one night, but one of the roadies accidentally knocked a can
of Coke over and it poured down into the machinery. Naturally, the
Coke headed straight for the tapes and proceeded to gum them all to
Hell. The concert started 2.5 hours late that night while they
cleaned out the insides of the machine.
"Things go better with Coke"
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Dadgar | 6600...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu | Bill & Opus -'92 |
+---------------------------------------------+------------------|
| Well, I hit the streets back in '81, |
| I found a heart in a gutter and a poet's crown |
| I felt barbed-wire kisses and icicle tears, |
| Where have we been for all of these years? |
| - Marillion, 1985 |
+--------------Would UCSB write anything this good?--------------+
Valentino Herrera
>Some other "classic" progressive rock sounds:
>Rickenbacker bass: unmistakable "clanky" sound; favoured by Chris Squire
>of Yes, Geddy Lee of Rush, Pete Trewavas of Marillion and others.
Like Paul McCartney...
>Hammond organ: B-3 or C-3. If you modify these so that the drawbars don't
>drop in volume when the percussion is used, you get the famous "heavy" organ
>sound. The classic sound is with all white drawbars and percussion, or with
>the occasional black one (usually one of the higher ones) to make a somewhat
>more dissonant sound. This organ sound, played through a REAL Leslie speaker,
>gives an amazing sound! Even though it has been around for years, Keith
>Emerson, Jan Hammer, Eddie Jobson and others have done remarkable
>things with it.
Jon Lord's playing has practically become synonymous with the
Hammond....
>Also note that one of Steve Howe's distinctive guitar sounds involves
>running it through a Leslie
Taking a cue from George Harrison, I'm sure...
>...unfortunately, drawbar organs and Leslie speakers aren't made any more
But they're not difficult to get your hands on a used one - most
modern keyboard players tend not to use them because they're heavy as
hell to lug around. Ah, there's nothing like the sound of a REAL Hammond
Organ...
>Roto-Tom drums: Small, tunable drums. They have a distinctive, tight sound.
>Bill Bruford uses them, as does Neil Peart.
I think Carl Palmer was one of the first drummers to use them, as well
as drum synthesizers (triggered by contacts, pads or the heads
themselves)
Patrick Jost
A Mellotron was a 3 1/2 octave keyboard instrument (other configurations
were made, but this was the "standard"). It used tape loops to produce
sound-real recordings of choirs, strings, horns or whatever. The action
was pretty strange, so it was impossible to play it quickly. However,
since the tapes looped every 8 seconds or so, you couldn't sustain
indefinitely, either.
I don't know if they still make them. Instead of using tape, any
sampler does the same thing...
If you're interested in musical instrument trivia, the Mellotron inspired
at least two other instruments. The first was the Birotron, which was
financed (in part?) by Rick Wakeman and developed by Dave Biro. It used
8-track tapes and was supposedly better than a Mellotron. I don't know
whatever happened to it.
The other was the Vako Orchestron. This seemed to work somewhat like a CD
player, using optical disks. Patrick Moraz used this on his solo albums
and Yes' "Relayer". If you ever read Keyboard magazine, you'll see discussions
on getting parts, disks and so on for the Orchestron, as Vako either quit
making them or went out of business.
With respect to the Mellotron, nothing quite sounds like it. It is/was
an interesting instrument, to be sure! I'm surprised someone hasn't
sampled a Mellotron...I've played with a killer bass sound sample from
a Minimoog to be able to play it polyphonically, so one could use a sample
of a Mellotron to overcome that instrument's limitations!
Some other "classic" progressive rock sounds:
Rickenbacker bass: unmistakable "clanky" sound; favoured by Chris Squire
of Yes, Geddy Lee of Rush, Pete Trewavas of Marillion and others. A key
component of this sound is the use of Roto-Sound "Swing Bass" strings. Other
players (e.g. John Entwistle, John Wetton) use these strings on different
basses to get some amazing sounds as well.
Hammond organ: B-3 or C-3. If you modify these so that the drawbars don't
drop in volume when the percussion is used, you get the famous "heavy" organ
sound. The classic sound is with all white drawbars and percussion, or with
the occasional black one (usually one of the higher ones) to make a somewhat
more dissonant sound. This organ sound, played through a REAL Leslie speaker,
gives an amazing sound! Even though it has been around for years, Keith
Emerson, Jan Hammer, Eddie Jobson and others have done remarkable
things with it. Also note that one of Steve Howe's distinctive guitar
sounds involves running it through a Leslie...unfortunately, drawbar
organs and Leslie speakers aren't made any more...
Roto-Tom drums: Small, tunable drums. They have a distinctive, tight sound.
Bill Bruford uses them, as does Neil Peart.
Enough trivia for now...
Patrick "Vigil in a Wilderness of Mirrors" Jost
--
|
Patrick Jost (PJester) | "The thief of Baghdad hides in Islington now"
|
jo...@coyote.trw.com | -Marillion (Fish)
Andy Tefft
on the Mellotron. Makes sense! And I was just about to look up
info on the Mellotron after reading about it in the sampling debate.
There's been a lot of mention that these beasts were rather
temperamental, and there was a lot of wow and flutter, etc.
I think the afficionados of music featuring mellotrons kind
of think of this as a characteristic of the music, rather than
a defect. There's a lot of complaint (not here that I've noticed)
about electronic (meaning digital) music being too "perfect."
The reason that organs and wind instruments and even percussion are
so hard to duplicate electronically is the small variations
you hear but don't notice when the real instrument is being played.
Then when you hear a sequencer the rhythm is too perfect, and
the electronic trumpet's vibrato is too regular, and the organ's
attacks are all too even, and it just doesn't sound the same.
The mellotron, beast that it was, didn't suffer from these "shortcomings."
So part of my original question still stands - does any band
today still use a mellotron at all, just for effect? When Genesis
goes on tour do they still include "ahh" sounds, produced by mellotron
or otherwise? When they went on tour in the late 70's?
This kind of reminds me of the liner notes of Boston's "Third Stage"
album which mentions them using something with a bad tube to get
a characteristic sound.
Patrick Jost
>In article <271131...@wilbur.coyote.trw.com> jo...@alice.coyote.trw.com (Patrick Jost) writes:
>>
>>If you're interested in musical instrument trivia, the Mellotron inspired
>>at least two other instruments. The first was the Birotron, which was
>>The other was the Vako Orchestron. This seemed to work somewhat like a CD
>
>robert fripp is a guitarist, and not to my knowledge a keyboard player, so
> a little further off the track:
>fripp appears on (at least) one of peter gabriel's albums ('peter gabriel'
> what else?) and is credited with 'frippertronics'.
>i have also seen at least one of fripp's albums which says it is
> a frippertronics album.
>what i've heard sounds nice, but what is it?
>
Frippertronics is a combination of tape loops and effects used to produce
Fripp's classic droning electric guitar sound. Years ago, the sadly defunct
firm Electro-Harmonix produced a cheap, but useful 16-second delay unit
that they called (jokingly) "Fripp in a Box" because you could use it
to make many of the same sounds.
Fripp's been known to do solo Frippertronics concerts, and he's always
found clever uses for the sound on albums. I don't think it is used
with the league of crafty guitarists, but it will be back!
Oh yes...the way that you edited my musical instrument posting was confusing!
If all you wanted to do was post a Frippertronics question, why didn't
you do it?!
PJ
DJ Death Metal
>There's been a lot of mention that these beasts were rather
>temperamental, and there was a lot of wow and flutter, etc.
I think you could probably do a reasonable simulation of wow and
flutter if you programmed your LFO properly... (maybe make it
mod-wheel dependent so you could control it, or better yet, make it
poly-aftertouch dependent.) In other words, you could probably
simulate a lot of the mellotron "quirks" if you were sufficiently
motivated.
>So part of my original question still stands - does any band
>today still use a mellotron at all, just for effect? When Genesis
>goes on tour do they still include "ahh" sounds, produced by mellotron
>or otherwise? When they went on tour in the late 70's?
XTC used it on all their albums from "Mummer" onward. You can hear
the strings on "Deliver Us From The Elements" (Mummer), the chorus on
"All You Pretty Girls" (Big Express) to name two off the top of my
head. They used the american version, the Chamberlin, on
"Skylarking." I'm not sure if it is on "Oranges and Lemons" (their
most recent). It is plastered all over the Dukes Of Stratosphear
stuff, naturally enough (that's XTC in retro-60's mode, in case you
don't know.)
+---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+
| | |\ | j...@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, |
| \|on |/rukman | -Fight The Power- | and you need everything we make. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
H.W. Neff
>at least two other instruments. The first was the Birotron, which was
>The other was the Vako Orchestron. This seemed to work somewhat like a CD
robert fripp is a guitarist, and not to my knowledge a keyboard player, so
a little further off the track:
fripp appears on (at least) one of peter gabriel's albums ('peter gabriel'
what else?) and is credited with 'frippertronics'.
i have also seen at least one of fripp's albums which says it is
a frippertronics album.
what i've heard sounds nice, but what is it?
/----------------\ NB: as you can see there is only one
ttfn, | ( (o) (o) ) | of me in this space.
bear. | ( __ ) | this is my personal view.
h.w.neff | ( \/ ) |
be...@tcs.com | ( ---- ) | bear /-/^/\/=/-/-
\----------------/
o/__________________________________________________________________________
o\ detach here before...
Scott Amspoker
>on the Mellotron.
>So part of my original question still stands - does any band
>today still use a mellotron at all, just for effect? When Genesis
>goes on tour do they still include "ahh" sounds, produced by mellotron
>or otherwise? When they went on tour in the late 70's?
That last I heard of a Mellotron being used in recent years is on
an album by Zebra. When Genesis did their "3 Sides Live" tour
they used a Roland VP330 for the Mellotron parts (strings/choir).
I don't know what they currently use. I would hazard a guess that
they use any of the numerous samplers and sample players that have
decent choir sounds available. Also, note that most of their
music in recent years does not use these sounds so they probably
wouldn't be missed at a concert (although I'd miss it).
I remember reading an article about Yes on tour. They mentioned
something about using a sampler to reproduce the old Mellotron
parts from "Close to the Edge" and some of their other early albums.
Dan Parmenter
role as an early instance of "sampling", would anyone care to enlighten
rec.music.misc assembled about the even more obscure instrument known
as The Optigon? From what I've been able to gather, they were originally
designed as toys, and then caught on among certain bands as well.
I'm told that the basic technology was based on optical soundtrack technology,
and involved the use of a loop or a disc with an optical sound encoded
on it. The Optigon read the soundtrack and played it back. What I'm unsure
of is whether there were multiple optical tracks, whther they were loops or
discs and how many could be used at a time. I believe that they were
frequently used in the same situations that might have otherwise called
for the Mellotron. On the last Richard Thompson album there's a credit
for "Stereo Optigon programming", so somebody's still using them.
- Dan
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Elvis was seated on the toilet, actually reading a religious book...when
suddenly a terrible pain gripped him by his stomach and seized his heart with a
strangler's grip. 'Oh no, dear dear God,' he thought. He couldn't move. He
couldn't get up. He had to get up. He must get up...That terrible pain, like
swords of fire, jabbing, slitting, cutting into his stomach, and especially his
liver - it was impossible to bear...Suddenly the thought flashed through him:
this must be like what Jesus suffered."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Hammond
>Whatever happened to Genesis's "ahh" machine? The synth that sounds
>like a chorus of people singing "ahhhhh.... ahhhhh..." and is most
>prevalent on Selling England by the Pound, Trick of the Tail (most
>notably at the end of the album), and Wind & Wuthering (esp. in
>"Afterglow").
>
>Was that a dedicated keyboard or a program on the synth (did they
>have programmable synths in 1976?)?
>
>Did Marillion buy the "ahh" machine? Did anyone else borrow it?
>I'm kind of interested in hearing other uses of this wonderful
>instrument.
I believe you're referring to the mellotron here. I don't know what happened
to the one that belonged to Genesis...
It was a keyboard that was popular in the early 70's which used pre-recorded
tapes of voices, strings, flutes, etc to produce the sound. Check out other
early Genesis albums such as Foxtrot (In particular, "Watcher of the Skies")
for more. Also, any of Rick Wakeman's work with Yes, as well as his older
solo work (esp. Six Wives of Henry VIII) is chock full of mellotron. The
first place I remember hearing one was in King Crimson's "Court of the
Crimson King".
Other examples are the Moving Waves album by Focus, as well as Led Zeppelin's
"The Rain Song" from Houses of the Holy. I believe Pink Floyd used it a little
on some of their old stuff too, in particular, some of the studio material on
Ummugumma as well as "See Saw" from Saucerful of Secrets. Also, check out
really old Moody Blues as well, I'm not too familar with them, though.
(Jeez, I'm starting to sound like some kind of K-Tel "sounds of the 70's"
record commercial...)
Doug
Scott Amspoker
>Now that we've gotten interested in discussing the Mellotron, and its
>role as an early instance of "sampling", would anyone care to enlighten
>rec.music.misc assembled about the even more obscure instrument known
>as The Optigon? From what I've been able to gather, they were originally
>designed as toys, and then caught on among certain bands as well.
I remember the Optigon being sold in places like Sears and Pennys. It
looked like a cheesy little organ and had a slot into which you would
insert sound disks. The sound disks were thin, flexible plastic about
the size of an LP. They had concentric "optical tracks" on them which
resembled the sound track from a 16mm movie film. I assume that each
track provided the sound for one note on the keyboard. If I recall,
there was no attempt to make the tracks loop seamlessly as the disc
spun.
I remember in an interview with Devo that they used an Optigon.
They said if you put the discs in upside down, the keyboard made
an interesting sucking sound.
Nate Stelton
>I remember in an interview with Devo that they used an Optigon.
>They said if you put the discs in upside down, the keyboard made
>an interesting sucking sound.
Don't forget its patch-layering capability as well. You could shove two (or
three if you tried real hard) disks in at once, for that nice, thick, lush
sound!
etan
Loren Petrich
>In article <90282.102...@psuvm.psu.edu> ART...@psuvm.psu.edu (Andy Tefft) writes:
>>There's been a lot of mention that these beasts were rather
>>temperamental, and there was a lot of wow and flutter, etc.
>
>I think you could probably do a reasonable simulation of wow and
>flutter if you programmed your LFO properly... (maybe make it
>mod-wheel dependent so you could control it, or better yet, make it
>poly-aftertouch dependent.) In other words, you could probably
>simulate a lot of the mellotron "quirks" if you were sufficiently
>motivated.
That task should be easiest on a synth architecture that
allows for several envelopes and modulation. The Yamaha DX
architecture, and its successor the SY77/TG77 has LOTS of modulation
possibilities.
I'm not terribly familiar with other synth architectures, such
as the Roland LA series or the Ensoniq VFX; but any with several
possible modulation sources should be good.
As to the question of touring with a Mellotron; I don't know
why anyone would want to do _that_ these days. Mellotrons are not made
anymore, and bouncing one around a lot could be bad for one. I guess
it's better to let one stay at home, as one would let a piano stay
home, and go on the road with lots of Mellotron samples. Think of it.
A digital sample of an analog sample. That's what the Mellotron is --
an analog playback sampler.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster: lo...@sunlight.llnl.gov
Since this nodename is not widely known, you may have to try:
alan.p...@bt.com
They couldnt repeat this live so Banks played it on a Mellotron using the stand Choir tape set and it sounds totally different.
Listen to the album version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA_uWtbXnh8
then listen to the live version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqRav8j3UZI
