Live music in your hometown (long)
Greg Skinner
scenes. The survey was prompted by some discussions I was having with
some people about why the LA live music scene is doing so poorly. The
general impression I got from the survey responses is that in other
parts of the country, there is a commitment among the local residents
to support live music, despite economic conditions, crime, other forms
of entertainment, etc.
The survey questions were:
* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
supporters of live music?
* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
your hometown?
and the responses were:
From: Stephen Schmidt <wh...@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <1993111903...@wisdom.Stanford.EDU>
In article <1993Nov19.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> you write:
>I have a few short questions for those of you who are involved in
>your local live performance scene:
My local scene can be defined three ways: Palo Alto area, San Jose
area, San Francisco area. I'll try to answer for all three...
Live music is not too bad in Palo Alto, given that we're mostly a
bedroom and university community. It's not what you'd expect in a
big city, but then we're only 20 minutes drive from...
San Jose's music community stinks. Lots of modern dance, a _small_
amount of blues, and that's about it. Name bands don't even bother
to play there. The most famous San Jose musician is Hammer, if that
gives you some idea ;) Fortunately, Palo Alto is only 40 minutes from..
San Francisco. Greatest city for live music in the world, especially
when you consider that Oakland/Berkeley just over the bridge. Primus
sucks!
Palo Alto isn't that supportive but it's not too bad. Having the
university helps, students provide most of the support that there
is.
San Francisco is just a mecca for musicians, which is why it thrives,
has been ever since Haight-Ashbury was the center of the musical
universe ;)
San Jose is just a totally dead town. There is no entertainment of
any kind, really, except the bars. Actually that's not entirely true,
there is some Hispanic community with traditional Hispanic music and
other entertainment. Mostly however, San Jose is just dead in all ways.
Not much at all in any of the three areas; the economy has been very
good here all the time I've been here (nine years). Silicon Valley
you know...
From: icsr...@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Michael Waldron)
Message-Id: <931119053...@gemini.oscs.montana.edu>
I live in the big city/rural town of Bozeman, MT. Music is thriving
hellaciously here. Probably the biggest reason is that this is a college
town, so the bars are not just places to sit down and drink, but rock
& rolling, country pickin', blues wailin' places to party.
I frequently refer to Bozeman as Little Seattle, because of the
number of bands (we must have 30+ here, and the population is only 40k or
so during the school year, and 30k during the summer) and also because of
the weather. :-)
I don't know if the economy stimulates this industry or not, but
the economy is *BOOMING* big-time. Bozeman's growth has been described as
"explosive" by the national news media, and is expected to quadruple in size
over the next ten years.
The local populace definitely supports live music in the area. I
recently worked a dance where a band monikered "Father Midnight" played, and
the place was packed to the rafters.
Hope this helps, and as usual. . .
Keep the faith.
From: Ken Kaliszewski <kka...@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com>
Message-Id: <1993111906...@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Absolutely! The Denver music scene is really gathering some speed.
Particurly ORIGINAL music.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
I suppose...
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
N/A - other than I HATE all of those other mediums as much as I hated
disco. Why would anyone want to go hear a bunch of drunks singing
"Handyman" or such nonsense with karoake?
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
I think it may have something to do with it. Colorado is a boom town
right now...
Ken
From: Len Moskowitz <mosk...@panix.com>
Message-Id: <1993111915...@panix.com>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Yes. Incredibly so.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
Partly. Also because this is one of the centers of the recording,
television, and movie industries. And a huge city.
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
What's a DJ? :^)
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Everything is thriving. More clubs and more music from World-class
bands than you could possibly listen to. Every night of the week.
Every style of music.
By the way, don't you want to know where this is? NYC, of course!
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
From: Russ Evans <e_g...@unixb.nerc-murchison.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <6233.93...@subnode.uk.ac.nerc-murchison.unixb>
Edinburgh, Scotland. Live music isn't doing too badly, but it could
be better. I think it's more to do with the willingness of local
musicians to work for very little, than with support from local folks.
Half of the audiences are themselves musicians, most of the time ...
In many parts of the UK karaoke and DJ's are encroaching on the gigs
available for live music, but things aren't too bad in Edinburgh --
neither of them are exactly popular!
I think the Edinburgh Festival is a big problem for the local music
scene. It imports audiences for a three-week bash, and leaves the place
deserted the rest of the time. The locals are willing to come out, to
some extent, for the Festival, but not for "non-Festival" gigs.
Russ
Message-Id: <931119151...@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>
From: 19-Nov-1993 1017 <ro...@tecrus.enet.dec.com>
I live in Northboro, MA, a suburb of Worcester, MA about thirty five miles from
Boston. Boston has a thriving scene, Worcester has a weak scene, the town I
live in has exactly one place that live music is played, mostly amateur/hack
rock bands. One possible bright spot is a very successful folk music club the
next town over in Westboro, MA.
The main problem seems to be the idea that live music is entertainment. Most
music is really an inducement to get people to go to bars to meet romantic
partners. Boston has a decent "art" scene, supporting folk, jazz and classical
music in addition to the bars.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Not much. In the twelve years I've been in MA, things have stayed about the
same. Of more impact may be that with Worcester being close enough to Boston,
people can always drive in to the "big city" to make up for the lack of musical
option locally.
Brian Rost @tecrus.enet.dec.com
From: "deborah lynn gillaspie" <dl...@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-Id: <931119163...@midway.uchicago.edu>
Greg,
It's funny you should ask right now. The last three weeks, the Chicago
Trib "Friday" and Sunday Arts sections have had articles about the jazz
scene here. We're experiencing a renaissance of sorts. This used to be a
BIG jazz town, as I'm sure you're aware, but there was kind of a slump
for awhile. Now, all of a sudden it seems, there are new jazz places
opening up, and big band music is popular again. Local groups seem to
be filling the gap left by the demise of the big touring bands. We still
get a lot of headliners in the small jazz ensemble idiom, but local
bands seem to be doing well, too. You can find local jazz almost any
night of the week (Monday seems to be the day off here.) Blues clubs
have pretty much been around and doing ok all along. There's a fair
amount of "world music" around in various venues. I can't really comment
on the rock scene, it's not my thing. But there are groups playing on
the North Side; Joe Kaplan from the percussion list would know more
about that scene.
I noticed a fair number of local CDs when I ws up at Tower Records
last week; that's a good sign, in my opinion. We've got some terrific
local people who are even touring on the national level; e.g., Willie
Pickins is on tour with Elvin Jones right now, they're headed for a
gig in Japan. Larry Gray (bass) has just brought out a CD that has
been well reviewed. And Paul Wertico lives here...
Hope this helps,
--Debbie
From: dhar...@pcocd2.intel.com (Dave Hardman - MD34)
Message-Id: <9311191635.AA15404@frc710>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Only Heavy Metal music seams to thrive on the live scene.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
I think most metal bands are made up of high school and young musicians.
These musicians are willing to play for pennies.
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
I think part of the problem is that here in Sacramento, anyone who is
really good has moved to LA or San Francisco. The opportunity to hear
live music made by competent musicians (other than heavy metal) is limited.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Not sure.
Message-Id: <931119170...@ashby.cs.ucla.edu>
From: John Shepherd <w...@ice.stx.com>
In article <1993Nov19.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, you write:
> I have a few short questions for those of you who are involved in
> your local live performance scene:
For me that would be the Washington, DC and surrounding areas
(Northern Virginia, and most of Maryland, including Baltimore).
> * Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Well, I believe compared to other parts of the country, we're thriving.
The last couple years, I think have slowed slightly, but it seems to be
picking up speed again.
> * If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
That's a big part of it. Why? DC's got a music history in several genres; Jazz (Duke Ellington), Country/Bluegrass/Rural (Jimmy Dean, Roy Clark,
Patsy Cline), Rap/GoGo (believed by some to have originated in DC), rock
(Joan Jett), punk (Dischord Records), and the list goes on. People don't
want to see that history forgotten. In fact, theres a non-profit
organization called the "Washington Area Music Association" (WAMA) that
exist with the purpose of promoting DC as a successful music business
center for all forms of music. They hold annual award ceremonies
("Wammies") and hold charity performances and put out compilation CDs
of Washington music. They also provide a means of networking with other
people in the business.
> * If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
I don't think any of the above had any detrimental effect on the
music scene here. If anything, MTV inspired people to dust off their old
guitars and get their buddies together to form bands.
> * To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
The economy has caused a few live music clubs to fold in the past. I
don't know of many that have switched to other entertainment to stay open.
I think those that did found it less lucrative then live music.
Fortunately the last year has seen the opening of a few new live music
venues, so things are actually looking up.
From: Marc Sabatella <ma...@epheh.sde.hp.com>
Message-Id: <931119175...@epheh.sde.hp.com>
In newsgroup rec.music.bluenote you wrote:
> I have a few short questions for those of you who are involved in
> your local live performance scene:
Uh-oh, so are you looking to move now :-) What's up?
> * Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
It's actually doing pretty well, especially if you consider the entire region
(like, say, a 60 mile radius) so youmcan include Greeley, Boulder, and Denver.
There is a "frontier" mentality here, with each town entirely self-contained
and generally separated by 10-20 miles or so of open space, and I think this
is actually conducive to live music - each town has its own clubs, etc.
> * If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
I guess so, what else could it be? It seems kind of split, though - this is
definitely a "suburban" feeling town, although we're not a suburb of anything.
There are many families, and people with kids here don't tend to go out much.
But this is also a college town, and a yuppie/DINC town (HP is largely
responsible for that); also many people come here to experience Colorado, and
that tends to attract a lot of people into folk and/or country who support the
music.
> * If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
There is thankfully almost no karaoke in Ft. Collins. I suppose there are a
couple of DJ-oriented dance clubs, but I never go to those or think about them
anyhow. A lot of people head into the mountains over the weekend; that is
probably the biggest competition for entertainment.
> * To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
There is an "Old Town" section of Fort Collins that, when I first moved here,
was largely deserted. It had recently been renovated, and was gaining in
popularity as sort of a tourist attraction, but there wasn't all that much to
do there. Now, it is clearly the cultural center of town. I suppose this is
related to Colorado's emergence from the recession over the last few years.
Fort Collins is reported (by its own Chamber of Commerce) to have one of the
highest ratios of restaurants : citizens, and I think, in general, that scales
also to "places with live music". Bars, restaurants, and coffeehouses all
feature live music from 2-6 nights a week, with emphasis on folk/rock and
blues, but also an above average dose of country and jazz and original rock.
There is relatively little in the punk/underground/alternative scene, although
there is plenty in Boulder.
From: Jay Kadis <j...@ccrma.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <931119184...@ccrma.Stanford.EDU>
> * Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
In a way, yes. There is no shortage of bands willing to play for little or nothing and plenty
of clubs presenting live music in some form or other. (San Francisco Bay Area...)
> * If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
I'm not sure why things keep going. It's pretty hard to get a large turnout for most of our
gigs. I think many bands coerce, cajole, or bribe their family, fans, etc. into coming.
> * If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
Yeah, to some extent. There's also the ageing of the population to blame, I think.
> * To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
>
Interestingly, I haven't been able to attribute any specific change in the live music scene
to economic conditions...alcohol still sells!
> Please reply via email. I will summarize.
>
> Greg Skinner
> g...@ficus.cs.ucla.edu
Jay Kadis
j...@ccrma.stanford.edu
From: ochi...@desperado.etdesg.trw.com (Craig F. Ochikubo 103639 x47870 R10/2342d)
Message-Id: <931119194...@desperado.etdesg.trw.com>
I play in some outside and avant garde type groups here in Los Angeles
(I noticed this is a UCLA address). For the size of LA, there is really
a very small number of events, although the scene is sustaining. Not,
on its own, people who play improvised music (jazz, outside, etc.,) seem
to make a living doing something else, and play more creatively on their
own. The folks I can think of are Vinny Golia, Michael Vlatkovich, Nels
Cline, Alex Cline, Fowler Bros., are some of the names of people with
groups that are regular groups.
Some of the venues that support this sort of thing are: LA Harbor College
in San Pedro, the Aligator Lounge in Santa Monica, LA County Museum of Art,
hmmmm ... that about it, for places that support this sort of music on
a regular basis.
Craig Ochikubo
ochi...@desperado.etdesg.trw.com
From: m...@mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter)
Message-Id: <931119212...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
No, not at all.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
Yes, to a great extent, because of economic considerations. Also, though,
live music is generally played in bars, and they are under fire. Police hassle
people leaving bars, whether they show intoxication effects or not; the "witch-
hunt" that people like MADD have propogated lends weight to this. Plus, the
federal government has blackmailed (literally!) all states to raise the drinking
age to 21 from 18, which cuts out a huge percentage of the college crowd. The
entertainment scene in general is changing; I'm not sure live music is going to
have any sizeable place in it...
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Sorry - I sort of answered this before, but "yes". That's WHY things like
DJs, karaoke, etc. have become more popular.
---Michael...
From: denni...@canrem.com (Dennis Ciul)
Message-Id: <60.326631.1...@canrem.com>
GU>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Yes, live music is doing well here in Toronto, Ontario.
GU>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
GU> supporters of live music?
Yes. Some stuff makes money or at least pulls patrons for bar, club
& concert promoters; some stuff needs (and gets, at least so far)
govt & private support, but there's LOTS of live music here, and
good, knowledgable audiences.
GU>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
GU> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
Not so I could notice it. Last wedding I was at had live music
(a string quartet). I know of a bookstore opening that had a
harpsichordist.
GU>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
GU> your hometown?
Some of the "serious" (def "music that needs to be subsidized")
outfits are having to cut back concert schedules. Mainstream
"classical" ones are tending program more conservative,
"crowd-pleasing" pieces (please, no more Puccini!, not Swan Lake
*again*! stop, stop, it's another Beethoven's symphony).
The "new music" outfits are not able to commission as much new
stuff, so we are hearing "old" new music (some as much as 10 yrs
old!), but I don't mind, as much of this stuff has never been
recorded, and I am happy for the chance to hear it a second time. I
really can't tell about the
GU>Please reply via email. I will summarize.
If you want to see more of the sort of things going on here, I
can send you copies of "NOW" and "eye", our weekly entertainment
magazines. E-mail snail-mail address to me if interested. I
recommend it, I can't begin to give you an idea of all the live
music going down here in one little note.
Regards,
Dawn Lyons Toronto, Ontario
From: men...@indial1.io.com (Loyd Blankenship)
Message-Id: <1993112108...@indial1.io.com>
In article <1993Nov19.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> you wrote:
: I have a few short questions for those of you who are involved in
: your local live performance scene:
: * Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Well, I'm from Austin. Hell yeah. :-)
: * If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
: supporters of live music?
The Austin Chamber of Commerce actually sells "Live Music Capital of the World"
bumper stickers. Most people around here to see live music on a semi-regular
basis. More would go if stuff started earlier.
: * To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
: your hometown?
Going to see local bands is still cheaper than a movie/dinner date. I don't
think economics hit too hard. Besides, after the oil bust of the 80s, current
economic problems seem like a whimper to Texans. :-)
From: Michael Deninger <deni...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Message-Id: <1993112119...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
No.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
Yes. Dance clubs are everywhere.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Maybe a little for classic rock type bands that play the one or two bars
that have bands and a blue-collar clientele.
I live in a college town. So if the band isn't some greasy-haired
alternative band, only older people give a damn about them.
Muff Armpit Studios VII
Message-Id: <931122000...@freenet.carleton.ca>
From: ak...@freenet.carleton.ca (James Hale)
In general, Ottawa is a pretty active music scene for a city of
only about 400,000 (900,000 metropolitan, but that covers a
wide area, including many rural regions). For jazz and blues
specifically, it tends to go in bursts. We have an annual
10-day jazz festival that is a bonanza for music, and a national
cultural festival that brings in performers from Africa and
Europe as well as Canada. The National Library also has an
ongoing jazz series that concentrates on Canadian performers
like Renee Rosnes and John Stetch (both of whom live in NYC).
The club scene hasn't been very active for several years, but
a new club, Woody's, has just started a very active jazz
series that is bringing in musicians from across Canada.
There are also occasional concerts featuring the likes of
Bill Frisell or Wynton Marsalis. Being the federal seat of
government helps a lot, since there is a lot of grant money
for shows of a "cultural" nature, and fortunately the
government tends to view jazz in this light. All this is
very good for me, since I'm the jazz columnist for the
local daily newspaper. Hope this helps.
From: CROBE...@mta.ca
Message-Id: <9311212006...@mta.ca>
- Live music is surviving but not thriving
- Bar band type music as well as the odd art music performance is
the norm. Very little original stuff is supported. People want to hear what
they already know.
- Even if the economy was better, this norm would be same.
From: m...@gvgdsd.gvg.tek.com (Michael R. Kesti)
Message-Id: <931122000...@gvgdsd.gvg.tek.com>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
My home, the Nevada City/Grass Valley area of Northern California's
Nevada County (about 50 miles north of Sacramento) has a VERY active
live music scene.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
In many respects, yes, but the community is very oriented towards
art of all kinds, which is a big factor.
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
DJ's get no club work here, they get only the private party/wedding
reception business. Karaoke has some presence, but has not really
caught on (thank Bog!). MTV is, beside being a wasteland, not really
a factor in the live music scene.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Not greatly. The scene is just as active now as it was, say 10 years
ago when the economy was a bit better. I attribute this primarily to
the community's art orientation, largely.
From: p9...@thn.htu.se (Magnus Enorson)
Message-Id: <p92m...@thn.htu.se>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Not by means of actual public gigs, but there's a vast number of bands
practicing like crazy, although not many that are very good.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
First and foremost by DJ's which is a shame because if they didn't rule the
scene the bands around would be a lot better.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Totally, because who would book a live band when they know nobody will
show up and pay for watching it.
Magnus Enorson
p9...@thn.htu.se
University/College of trollhattan
SWEDEN
From: ar...@banshee.camb.inmet.com (Arthur Kenyon)
Message-Id: <931122133...@banshee.camb.inmet.com>
Live music is almost dead in my hometown (Lowell, MA, pop. ~100K). 10 years
ago Lowell had at least a dozen bars that supported live entertainment, and
there were at least a dozen more in its suburbs. Most of these places had
live entertainment Thursday-Saturday and often on Sunday night as well (open
mike, etc.) Today, I'd estimate there are about 6 in the entire area, and many
of these places only book bands on one weekend night (and have Karaoke and DJs
on the other nights).
As I see it the following are the causes (in the order of influence):
1. Exponential increase in the enforcement of and penalties for DWI offences.
I'll not debate the relative merits of the issue, but this is the major
factor (IMO, based on talking to people who used to go out regularly, and
now are pretty much too scared to go out and have a few beers at a bar.)
These laws took the casual fans (the ones who would go out a few times a
month to see bands) out of the loop. While these people didn't go out a
lot, there were a lot of them, so they added up to a lot of patrons over
the month.
2. MA raised the drinking age from 18 to 21. This coupled with #1 probably
eliminated at least 75% of the "bar crowd" in the places I used to play.
Lowell is a "college town" and the live music scene used to be packed with
college-age kids (the college even had concerts a few times a month). Once
this audience was legislated out of existence, I think half the bars in
town either closed or stopped booking live entertainment.
This audience is the flip side to those in #1. The number of people is
much smaller here, however, these people go out every week (often on
both Friday and Saturday (and the (rich) die-hards go out Thursday and
Sunday as well.))
3. The basically bad economy. Despite the common belief that this is a major
factor, I think it rates far below #s 1 and 2. We had recessions in the
early 80's and the clubs were doing just fine. Clubs only started to fail
on a large scale when Dukakis declared war on drunk driving (enacting,
among other things, the legislation that resulted in #'s 1 and 2).
I'm no scientist; these are just observations made since I was 18 (I'm 32
now) while playing and watching the bar scene for the past 14 years.
Arte Kenyon
From: p...@lachman.com (Paul Young)
Message-Id: <931122171...@ra.i88.isc.com>
|> * Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
Well - I live in the Chicago area, and the answer has to be YES.
|> * If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
|> supporters of live music?
It is clearly a big part of the lifestyle around here - going to see
local bands any day of the week for $1 to $8 cover charge.
|> * If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
|> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
It seems that the DJ thing is moving in on the wedding/party market, although
most wedding bands I know are busy every weekend throughout the year.
Karaoke is present, but not very widespread.
The original music market is very big. There is also a big market here
for "tribute" bands - Rush, Zeppelin, Genesis, the Dead, etc. There's even
an REO tribute band here!
|> * To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
|> your hometown?
It doesn't. It is seasonal in that the summer has a LOT more opportunities
to play, but there is never a lack of an audience or of places to play.
Cheers!
From: Patrick_Wa...@xerox.com
Message-Id: <93Nov22.095319pst.14544(1)@alpha.xerox.com>
Ok, I'll bite.
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
No, it's in its worse state in years.
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
Perhaps, but I believe it has more to do with apathy than anything. I think
more people are staying home for many reasons including, apathy (it's easy to
sit in front of the tube), money (it's expensive to go out), fear (it's
dangerous to go out), and ignorance (if they haven't heard of the band, they
don't want to make an effort to find out if they are any good.)
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Significantly. It's expensive to go out these days, and money is tight all
over. I know it's affected me. I don't go out nearly as much as I used to.
Just my opinion....
~Pat
From: ge...@sgl.ists.ca (Georg Feil)
Message-Id: <931123205...@sgl.ists.ca>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
(Toronto, Canada) Yes.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
Yes, but more support would be nice. Canada has a fairly small overall music
market so more vigorous individual support is important.
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
This one is hard because the Canadian "recession" has been going on so long,
I forget what it used to be like. There are probably fewer people at the clubs,
and certainly less money to be made by bands (usually just a fraction of the
door, you're lucky to walk home with $20 each after splitting the take).
Georg.
From: pn...@world.std.com (Peter Nuwayser)
Message-Id: <1993112602...@world.std.com>
In article <1993Nov19.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> you write:
>I have a few short questions for those of you who are involved in
>your local live performance scene:
>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
YES. I live in Boston. There are zillions of bands here. However, there
is definitely a movement happening here... eurohaus is very slowly taking
time and people away from local live shows.
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
I would say yes... there is a huge student population here that is mostly
in support of mainstream and alternative rock, rap/hiphop, and blues.
The natives tend more toward mainstream AOR and blues and hiphop (in that
order).
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
If you live in Boston you have a ton of choices... live music (rock, house,
classical, jazz, funk, folk, country... I think there are even a couple of
zydeco bands) and dance clubs... and many places also feature karaoke (it
stuck here in a big way).
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Simple. There is a surplus of bands here and only so many places to play...
therefore club operators have their pick of who plays and who doesn't, and
they can cram six bands into one evening, make every band pay the house
sound guy, charge only $5 for admission (mostly students here...),
and get away with compensating the bands with beer. In a nutshell, it
generally doesn't pay to be a musician around here unless you plan on
leaving and you have a solid plan to do so.
Thanks for asking!
From: kt...@cac.washington.edu
Message-Id: <931129184...@redx.cac.washington.edu>
I live in Seattle. Live music is thriving due to the 'grunge boom' that
continues to evolve and inspire a lot of musicans around here (and,
apparently, from other places as well).
Unfortunately for me, I don't play grunge/alternative rock. So the kind of
musical snobbery that goes along with the climate that's currently active
in this town doesn't leave room for folks (like me) who want to play
more funk-oriented popular songs (our band doesn't even have a GUITAR).
There is a hint, however, that things may be evening out. Not so much
because the alternative scene is dying out but because bands like ours are
carving out a niche for people to come out and see something that has a
backbeat (these folks have been staying at home for the last couple
of years).
With a bit of luck, I'll know a lot more in a couple of months when I
expect that we'll be working a lot more. Get back to me then if you're
still interested.
Greg House
Very interesting reading. Thank you for putting that together, Greg.
I found it interesting how the responses seem to be almost completely at
one end of the spectrum or the other. People either felt the live music
scene in their area was really boomin or a total bust.
Wish I'd sent you my response, I'd intended to, but it got lost in my
other stuff to do.
I live in Colorado Springs, CO and the music scene here is poor and getting
worse. Almost all the clubs that host rock bands around here hire the ones
that play moldy old "classic rock" covers, and it seems like almost all these
bands have the same basic set list (and half of the regular ones have some
of the same BAND MEMBERS!). There are also a few opportunities for country
cover bands.
The two clubs that hosted alternative bands for the last few years have both
announced that they will no longer have live music on weekends after the
start of the year. The bands will be relegated to Tuesday-Thursday nights
(when almost nobody can actually come out and see 'em, it won't be long
before they stop bothering then too). There is one fairly new place that's
hosting a lot of bands, but it's set up as all-ages and I've heard a lot of
people complain that it's not as much fun with the young kids around.
I don't think it's economics as much as a general trend of audiences toward
drinking less, smoking less (and not liking being in smoky places), and not
staying out as late. I'm not sure what the solution is, other then to
observe that there must be a way to reach that growing section of the music
loving market that doesn't care to hang out in bars all night.
I also think that club owners have probably contributed to the problem by
hiring mostly musicians that cater to the lowest common denominator in
their audience, and have over time, groomed their clientelle so that only
the people that like the real common material come around on a regular basis.
However, it's not *just* the club owners, witness the huge number of "classic
rock" stations out there today. Funny, when I was growing up, I don't
remember a lot of stations that played only material that was 10-30 years
old...but now they're all over the dial.
I noticed that most of the people in the survey that responded that the
music scene was doing well in their areas were either from 1) college
towns, or 2) major metro areas. Those seem like special cases, since
in the college town there's a lot more young audience that's interested
in music and doesn't have a lot of other commitments on their time. In
the populous area, there's just a lot bigger audience base to work with.
Any ideas on how to improve the market for interesting live music in an
area where it's not doing so well?
GregH.
Greg House
A small warning to anyone that tries to followup to
this post. The newsgroups line contains "misc.test",
which gets you a bunch of email from sites that
receive your posting...real annoying.
And I thought the intent of putting in the results
of such a survey was to generate discussion, but it
would appear not.
GregH
Richard W. Greenwalt
g...@ficus.cs.ucla.edu writes:
>The survey questions were:
>
>* Do you feel live music is thriving in your hometown?
>
>* If so, is it because the citizens of your hometown are active
> supporters of live music?
>
>* If not, is it because live music is being replaced by other
> forms of entertainment (DJs, karaoke, MTV, etc)?
The expense of hiring a good band for a bar is high.
The expense of running a band is high (travel, rent, time, etc.)
>
>* To what extent have economic conditions affected live music in
> your hometown?
Dave Tutelman
>
> ... [ stuff deleted about how the live music scene in Colorado is NOT
> current rock and alernative bands ] ...
>I don't think it's economics as much as a general trend of audiences toward
>drinking less, smoking less (and not liking being in smoky places), and not
>staying out as late. I'm not sure what the solution is, other then to
>observe that there must be a way to reach that growing section of the music
>loving market that doesn't care to hang out in bars all night.
>
>I also think that club owners have probably contributed to the problem by
>hiring mostly musicians that cater to the lowest common denominator in
>their audience, and have over time, groomed their clientelle so that only
>the people that like the real common material come around on a regular basis.
>However, it's not *just* the club owners, witness the huge number of "classic
>rock" stations out there today. Funny, when I was growing up, I don't
>remember a lot of stations that played only material that was 10-30 years
>old...but now they're all over the dial.
That's VERY simple economics. Ever hear of the baby boom?
We're talking about a demographic segment that:
- Contains a LOT of people...
- ... who have good-paying jobs and money.
Radio advertisers (and, for that matter, club owners) really resonate to
those demographics. And we're talking about people who were teenagers
20-30 years ago and young adults 10-20 years ago. So what would YOU play
if you wanted to get their attention (and their money)?
>I noticed that most of the people in the survey that responded that the
>music scene was doing well in their areas were either from 1) college
>towns, or 2) major metro areas. Those seem like special cases, since
>in the college town there's a lot more young audience that's interested
>in music and doesn't have a lot of other commitments on their time. In
>the populous area, there's just a lot bigger audience base to work with.
You got it! Economics and demographics again. In a college town, the
demographics are skewed (there's a BIG population with money, whose age
is within a couple of years of 20). In a major metro area, there's
enough people of each group to go around -- and really fierce competition
for the mainstream, so a lot of stations/clubs look for a niche.
>Any ideas on how to improve the market for interesting live music in an
>area where it's not doing so well?
Well, if you believe the above, get a few thousand of your closest friends
who share your taste to crowd the few places that cater to your taste.
If you can't get economics and demographics to work FOR you, you are
bound to lose the fight.
Hope this helps, but I'm afraid it will only make you more depressed
about it.
Dave
Matthew H. Fields
Dave Tutelman <da...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> wrote:
>That's VERY simple economics. Ever hear of the baby boom?
>We're talking about a demographic segment that:
> - Contains a LOT of people...
> - ... who have good-paying jobs and money.
I'm obviously off the curve...
>
>Radio advertisers (and, for that matter, club owners) really resonate to
>those demographics. And we're talking about people who were teenagers
>20-30 years ago and young adults 10-20 years ago. So what would YOU play
>if you wanted to get their attention (and their money)?
I'd play my klangiest serial stuff, like my recent trio, in repertoire...same
8 or 9 pieces every night, add a couple new ones and drop a couple old ones
and revive a couple really old ones from time to time. And maybe I could be
talked into having 21-year-old aerobics instructors dance in skimpy clothing
as part of the act, too.
>You got it! Economics and demographics again. In a college town, the
>demographics are skewed (there's a BIG population with money,
Gosh, I just keep getting run off the edge of the curve.
>Well, if you believe the above, get a few thousand of your closest friends
--> <-- well, no, I guess I just really believe in the concept of
closest friends, which precludes the number creeping above 6.
>who share your taste to crowd the few places that cater to your taste.
>If you can't get economics and demographics to work FOR you, you are
>bound to lose the fight.
What about advertising, marketing, graphics, hard-sell, tv?
Steve Manes
: About a month or so ago, I posted a short survey on local live music
: scenes.
I missed this. Well, as another New Yorker, here's my opinion. Len
Moskowitz, also a NYC area musician, posted this in response to the question
about whether the NYC live music scene was thriving:
: Yes. Incredibly so.
: Partly. Also because this is one of the centers of the recording,
: television, and movie industries. And a huge city.
: Everything is thriving. More clubs and more music from World-class
: bands than you could possibly listen to. Every night of the week.
: Every style of music.
It depends on how you define your borders. I don't know much about the NYC
suburbs so my comments concern Manhattan and the immediate suburbs (Brooklyn
Heights, Hoboken, etc.). It also depends on how you define "local live
music scene". While I really appreciate living in a town that gives me the
option of seeing a reformed Toto at the Edison Ballroom or Randy Brecker at
the Bottom Line or Eddie Palmieri at SOB's or Peter Gabriel at the Garden in
the same weekend, these acts aren't representive of NY's local live music.
They are just as representative of LA's or London's or any other big city's
music scenes as NYC's. Since this newsgroup is about music makers rather
than music fans, I presume the question to address how friendly the local
scene is to local musicians. In this respect, I have to disagree with Len's
glowing impressions of the health of NYC's music scene. This comes from
someone who's spent twenty years as a professional, full-time, Local 802
card-carrying player here watching the scene slowly decay into what it's
become, and also from someone who's now a restaurant owner and beginning
to seen things from the other side as well.
NYC local music isn't found in the big venues but in a slowly diminishing
number of small, economically-challenged music clubs like The Bitter End,
Continental, Dan Lynch, McGoverns, CBGBs, The Grand and Ludlow St. Cafe. Or
in horribly depressing swillhouses like Kenny's Castaways, the Underground
and Rock 'n Roll Cafe. Although the former set of clubs are generally good
places to listen to local music and are therefore prized gigs by musicians,
they all share one thing in common: you're extremely lucky to just break
even on your expenses playing in any of these places. Although there is no
shortage of bands willing to pay-to-play in these clubs, the general quality
of the music is pretty much what you would expect under the circumstances.
You will find an occasional local gem like Joy Askew doing a one-nighter
somewhere but it's really quite rare.
Although I don't have a lot of experience outside NYC, I've got friends in
Washington, DC who play local clubs almost exclusively and earn pretty good
livings from it. And, frankly, the overall quality of local music I hear in
DC is better than NYC... certainly not because DC musicians are better.
It's just very difficult to rehearse and keep a band together in NYC under
the economic circumstances, especially when there are so few places to play,
even for free.
Realizing that I may have opened a can of worms here, I have to state my
opinion that NYC's music scene is anything but thriving... it's on life
support. When I first came to NY, I was able to support myself playing any
number of local clubs, each player making $50-60/night. But the clubs
started disappearing under skyrocketing rents, the appeal of discos and
dance clubs and (last but definitely not least) enforcement of NYC's fascist
Cabaret Law. The clubs which remained found that they could offer customers
*two* bands a night for the same cost (of course, the bands themselves made
half as much). Most of the Manhattan rock clubs have gone that route now.
In fact, in a large number of these clubs, bands are limited to one
set/each, making it worth no one's time, including an audience who might
have liked to hear your second set.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Steve Manes .sig under construction ma...@magpie.com *
* New York, NY watch your step =o&>o *
Len Moskowitz
>It depends on how you define your borders. I don't know much about the NYC
>suburbs so my comments concern Manhattan and the immediate suburbs (Brooklyn
>Heights, Hoboken, etc.). It also depends on how you define "local live
>music scene". While I really appreciate living in a town that gives me the
>option of seeing a reformed Toto at the Edison Ballroom or Randy Brecker at
>the Bottom Line or Eddie Palmieri at SOB's or Peter Gabriel at the Garden in
>the same weekend, these acts aren't representive of NY's local live music.
>They are just as representative of LA's or London's or any other big city's
>music scenes as NYC's.
Yup. Except lots of these acts call NYC home so they're here most of
the time.
>NYC local music isn't found in the big venues but in a slowly diminishing
>number of small, economically-challenged music clubs like The Bitter End,
>Continental, Dan Lynch, McGoverns, CBGBs, The Grand and Ludlow St. Cafe. Or
>in horribly depressing swillhouses like Kenny's Castaways, the Underground
>and Rock 'n Roll Cafe. Although the former set of clubs are generally good
>places to listen to local music and are therefore prized gigs by musicians,
>they all share one thing in common: you're extremely lucky to just break
>even on your expenses playing in any of these places. Although there is no
>shortage of bands willing to pay-to-play in these clubs, the general quality
>of the music is pretty much what you would expect under the circumstances.
>You will find an occasional local gem like Joy Askew doing a one-nighter
>somewhere but it's really quite rare.
When I get to see Lou Marini and David Spinoza play Zanzibar's, or
Robert Ross at Manny's, or Popa Chubby down at Boo-Boo's in Hoboken, or
Lou Soloff backed by Mark Egan at Sweet Basil's, or Bill Mays and Ray
Drummond at the Vanguard, or Ron Carter at Sweetwater's, or Black 47 at
that sleezy Irish bar, or Hiram Bullock, or Les Paul at Fat Tuesdays I'm
getting to see NY musicians. Walk up and down Hoboken's Washington
Street on Saturday night and you'll see a dozen or more clubs featuring
local bands. And the places are packed. There's The Turning Point in
Piermont presenting blues and folk national acts mixed with locals
(they're just a bit north of the GW Bridge on the Jersey side), and
Trumpets (for jazz) in Montclair, 20 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel. I
haven't even touched on the black or Latin scene.
Check out the NJ bands that make a living in the clubs. Bands like
Neighborhood Blues Band, Who Brought The Dog, The Nerds, and at least a
dozen others. They're playing three or more nights a week, from the
Jersey/PA border, out to Queens and Brooklyn and Long Island. Mostly
covers but they're booked solid. Granted, the city has gotten
unfriendly to club owners and local bands but the North and Central
Jersey scene is flourishing. Long Island seems pretty dead.
>Although I don't have a lot of experience outside NYC, I've got friends in
>Washington, DC who play local clubs almost exclusively and earn pretty good
>livings from it. And, frankly, the overall quality of local music I hear in
>DC is better than NYC... certainly not because DC musicians are better.
>It's just very difficult to rehearse and keep a band together in NYC under
>the economic circumstances, especially when there are so few places to play,
>even for free.
I like the DC scene. Lots going on there, but I'd say that NY/NJ equals
or betters it.
Be willing to step just outside NYC and you'll find lots of places for
local bands to play. Open up an Aquarian (the local music paper) or the
Village Voice and you'll see dozens of venues.
>Realizing that I may have opened a can of worms here, I have to state my
>opinion that NYC's music scene is anything but thriving... it's on life
>support.
As you noted, we have to differentiate between the venues that host
national acts and those that host the locals. I'd say the local bands
are doing best on the left side of the Hudson while more of the big
names can be found on the right. Except for Jazz which is bigger for
local bands in NYC.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Steve Manes
: When I get to see Lou Marini and David Spinoza play Zanzibar's, or
: Robert Ross at Manny's, or Popa Chubby down at Boo-Boo's in Hoboken, or
: Lou Soloff backed by Mark Egan at Sweet Basil's, or Bill Mays and Ray
: Drummond at the Vanguard, or Ron Carter at Sweetwater's, or Black 47 at
: that sleezy Irish bar, or Hiram Bullock, or Les Paul at Fat Tuesdays I'm
: getting to see NY musicians.
Actually, most of them don't live in NYC. Half those you named have homes
upstate in Westchester, Rockland and Dutchess Counties. But that's not
really the point. These guys are internationally-established players who
play in clubs that feature such name talent, and are paid accordingly. Yes,
it's great that they're here to listen to but they're no more indicative of
the health of the >local< NY music scene than are Madonna or Billy Joel...
also local talents made good.
: Walk up and down Hoboken's Washington
: Street on Saturday night and you'll see a dozen or more clubs featuring
: local bands. And the places are packed. There's The Turning Point in
: Piermont presenting blues and folk national acts mixed with locals
: (they're just a bit north of the GW Bridge on the Jersey side), and
: Trumpets (for jazz) in Montclair, 20 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel. I
: haven't even touched on the black or Latin scene.
Probably because you don't live in the city you're overlooking a salient
fact of life for NYC musicians: most of us don't own vehicles. The cost of
garaging, insuring and maintaining a car in NYC is a luxury way beyond the
means of most musicians so the clubs you mentioned might as well be located
in Fairbanks.
Back in the good ol' days you didn't need a car to work in the city. There
were enough clubs supporting local music within geographical NYC that all
you needed was a Checker cab (which have also disappeared... sigh). It's
the loss of these clubs that I was referring to.
Len Moskowitz
>Len Moskowitz (mosk...@panix.com) wrote:
>: When I get to see Lou Marini and David Spinoza play Zanzibar's, or
>: Robert Ross at Manny's, or Popa Chubby down at Boo-Boo's in Hoboken, or
>: Lou Soloff backed by Mark Egan at Sweet Basil's, or Bill Mays and Ray
>: Drummond at the Vanguard, or Ron Carter at Sweetwater's, or Black 47 at
>: that sleezy Irish bar, or Hiram Bullock, or Les Paul at Fat Tuesdays I'm
>: getting to see NY musicians.
>
>Actually, most of them don't live in NYC. Half those you named have homes
>upstate in Westchester, Rockland and Dutchess Counties.
But that's part of the NY metro area. If you're saying that musicians
who live in Manhattan are at a disadvantage, I'd agree. As you say,
without a car, less established Manhattan-based musicians are at the
mercy of the declining Manhattan club scene. But the metro area is more
than just Manhattan.
>But that's not
>really the point. These guys are internationally-established players who
>play in clubs that feature such name talent, and are paid accordingly.
When I caught Marini at Zanzibar, the band (The 'Nuff Brothers) was
playing out for fun. Lawrence Feldman (alto sax) said they'd be lucky
if they grossed $40 each. Hey, it was a nine piece band (including Alan
Rubin and David Spinoza) on a Sunday night! I think they might have
been filling in for Hiram Bullock. Aren't these guys NY studio players?
Can't get much more local than that, no?
I caught Soloff and Marini up at the Turning Point on what looked like a
pickup job. The band leader and the rhythm section looked like a
steady, but pretty second rate, no-name band. They picked up the horn
section for the night. What a horn section! Again, they couldn't have
been playing for the money.
Where else could you go to see these world-class musicians playing
pickup dates?
>...Yes,
>it's great that they're here to listen to but they're no more indicative of
>the health of the >local< NY music scene than are Madonna or Billy Joel...
>also local talents made good.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just not limiting my comments to
Manhattan. And as you say, there's a difference whether we're
discussing the club go-er's perspective or the local unknown musician's.
>Probably because you don't live in the city you're overlooking a salient
>fact of life for NYC musicians: most of us don't own vehicles. The cost of
>garaging, insuring and maintaining a car in NYC is a luxury way beyond the
>means of most musicians so the clubs you mentioned might as well be located
>in Fairbanks.
I guess that's lucky for those of us who live outside Manhattan! Maybe
if you want to play in a healthier club scene, you should consider
moving across the Hudson?
>Back in the good ol' days you didn't need a car to work in the city. There
>were enough clubs supporting local music within geographical NYC that all
>you needed was a Checker cab (which have also disappeared... sigh). It's
>the loss of these clubs that I was referring to.
It is indeed unfortunate but there's lots more to the NY local music
scene than just Manhattan.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Greg Skinner
>Len Moskowitz (mosk...@panix.com) wrote:
>: Walk up and down Hoboken's Washington
>: Street on Saturday night and you'll see a dozen or more clubs featuring
>: local bands. And the places are packed. There's The Turning Point in
>: Piermont presenting blues and folk national acts mixed with locals
>: (they're just a bit north of the GW Bridge on the Jersey side), and
>: Trumpets (for jazz) in Montclair, 20 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel. I
>: haven't even touched on the black or Latin scene.
>Probably because you don't live in the city you're overlooking a salient
>fact of life for NYC musicians: most of us don't own vehicles. The cost of
>garaging, insuring and maintaining a car in NYC is a luxury way beyond the
>means of most musicians so the clubs you mentioned might as well be located
>in Fairbanks.
Would it be possible to take public transportation? As far as I know,
there are bus lines, PATH trains, NJ Transit, etc. that go to these
places. It would be a problem if these don't run 24 hours, or if the
people had very large instruments. I suppose for those circumstances
it would be necessary to take a cab.
--gregbo
NICHOLAS FARINACCI
Well, this being a percussion discussion list, don't you think carrying
your drums on public transporation would be just a small bit of a hassle?
Maybe you can get by with a small set, but if you happen to have an
elaborate drum setup, I doubt if you would want to take public
transportation. Then there is also the idea of making sure you have
transportation home. I don't live in NYC, so I don't know much about how
their transportation works, but if public transportation doesn't run all
nite, you would have to cut your session short to catch the last train, or
bus.
Nick
===============================================|
Nick Farinacci | |
RMS Technologies | |
Nasa Lewis Research Center | |
yyn...@lims01.lerc | |
===============================================|
Greg Skinner
>Well, this being a percussion discussion list, don't you think carrying
>your drums on public transporation would be just a small bit of a hassle?
Note: I did write in my previous post:
>>It would be a problem if these don't run 24 hours, or if the
>>people had very large instruments. I suppose for those circumstances
>>it would be necessary to take a cab.
Obviously, it would be very difficult if not impossible to tote a full
drum kit around NYC via bus, subway, etc. I was offering it as an
alternative for people whose instruments can fit fairly easily on
public transportation.
For example, I grew up in NYC. I never played professionally there,
but I did lug a baritone sax (in case) around the NYC buses and
subways when I needed to. The case is somewhat bulky, large, and
heavy; not the sort of thing one wants to drag around the city with
them. Other public transportation passengers don't like stepping
around it (or you) either.
Steve Manes
: Steve Manes <ma...@magpie.com> wrote:
: >Len Moskowitz (mosk...@panix.com) wrote:
: But that's part of the NY metro area. If you're saying that musicians
: who live in Manhattan are at a disadvantage, I'd agree. As you say,
: without a car, less established Manhattan-based musicians are at the
: mercy of the declining Manhattan club scene. But the metro area is more
: than just Manhattan.
The metro area is indeed part of NYC, but I've also said (several times)
that I'm not talking about the suburbs but geographic, urban NYC. I know
enough about both to know that they are completely different scenes with
completely different audiences. Urban NYC audiences won't pay urban NYC
nightclub prices to hear cover bands playing the same stuff they can hear in
the Passaic Suds 'n Spuds, and suburban club owners are unlikely to welcome
(for instance) an all-instrumental band that plays nothing but weird,
obscure surf music (Jan. 15 at McGovern's in Soho, BTW).
: When I caught Marini at Zanzibar, the band (The 'Nuff Brothers) was
: playing out for fun. Lawrence Feldman (alto sax) said they'd be lucky
: if they grossed $40 each.
Exactly, but you call that a healthy music scene? It's *great* seeing these
people play live but the issue, again, is the health of the local playing
scene as it applies to working musicians, not to audiences. The keyword
here is "working", as in "surviving economically".
: I caught Soloff and Marini up at the Turning Point on what looked like a
: pickup job. The band leader and the rhythm section looked like a
: steady, but pretty second rate, no-name band. They picked up the horn
: section for the night. What a horn section! Again, they couldn't have
: been playing for the money.
They probably were but not for much. When you can get double-scale session
players to do a gig for chump change, where does that put unknown local
musicians who have to rely on income from such gigs to pay the rent?
: >Probably because you don't live in the city you're overlooking a salient
: >fact of life for NYC musicians: most of us don't own vehicles. The cost of
: >garaging, insuring and maintaining a car in NYC is a luxury way beyond the
: >means of most musicians so the clubs you mentioned might as well be located
: >in Fairbanks.
: I guess that's lucky for those of us who live outside Manhattan! Maybe
: if you want to play in a healthier club scene, you should consider
: moving across the Hudson?
Well, your description of the Turning Point gig above doesn't make me want
to relocate to Piermont. At the risk of sounding elitist, musicians who
choose to subject themselves to the abuse and merciless expense of life in
NYC don't do so to play the suburban bar scene. There is still some viable,
local, live music in the city, but it's a steadily disappearing commodity.
What remains of it can still be rewarding as a musical experience, if not
economically. The problem is that there are fewer clubs offering live music
and fewer still where an artist or band can even break even on the night.
Len Moskowitz
>The metro area is indeed part of NYC, but I've also said (several times)
>that I'm not talking about the suburbs but geographic, urban NYC.
Hoboken is literally just across the river from Soho and Tribeca and
supports a club scene that's what NYC should be. It's as urban as parts
of NYC.
>...I know
>enough about both to know that they are completely different scenes with
>completely different audiences. Urban NYC audiences won't pay urban NYC
>nightclub prices to hear cover bands playing the same stuff they can hear in
>the Passaic Suds 'n Spuds, and suburban club owners are unlikely to welcome
>(for instance) an all-instrumental band that plays nothing but weird,
>obscure surf music (Jan. 15 at McGovern's in Soho, BTW).
There is no one club scene on the West side of the Hudson. There are
clubs that cater to cover bands and there are at least as many that
cater to bands that only do originals, in a wide range of styles (some
maybe even weird surf music!). The crowd that pays $17.50 or $20 a head
to hear Roomful of Blues, Maria Muldaur, Tribal Tech, Luther Guitar Jr.
Johnson, or Dave Mason at the Turning Point (Piermont) is the same
crowd that pays $15 to hear Little Mike and the Tornadoes, or less for
some local unknown band like The Robert Ross Blues Band or The City
Boys.
The crowd that goes to Maxwell's in Hoboken is the same crowd that goes
to S.O.B.'s, The Village Gate, or Paddy Reilly's. The crowd that goes
to Boo-Boo's is much the same crowd you'll see at CBGB's. It's small
area.
I'll try to make that gig. You have me interested!
>: When I caught Marini at Zanzibar, the band (The 'Nuff Brothers) was
>: playing out for fun. Lawrence Feldman (alto sax) said they'd be lucky
>: if they grossed $40 each.
>
>Exactly, but you call that a healthy music scene? It's *great* seeing these
>people play live but the issue, again, is the health of the local playing
>scene as it applies to working musicians, not to audiences. The keyword
>here is "working", as in "surviving economically".
Well, the only advertising for that last minute gig was word of mouth
and the phone calls Marini made to the folks on his mailing list. I
don't doubt that if there were decent advertising the place would have
been packed to the rafters and they could've charged $20 a head. The
band would've come out of it with a couple of hundred each for the night.
Not enough to live on for the week byt hardly "chump change."
But I agree that most local NYC bands have a hard time making a living
from music. I, for example, have a day job -- I decided long ago that
there was no way I could live by myself, much less support a family, on
music income. To do so meant that I'd have to do wedding/bar mitzvah
work and that wasn't my cup of tea. So I became an engineer (:^)!
But then again, live music in NYC is a glut commodity -- there's so much
good music that its hard to get an audience to listen to unknown bands,
unless they play in places that cater to new music. And there's a
limited audience for that.
>...At the risk of sounding elitist, musicians who
>choose to subject themselves to the abuse and merciless expense of life in
>NYC don't do so to play the suburban bar scene. There is still some viable,
>local, live music in the city, but it's a steadily disappearing commodity.
>What remains of it can still be rewarding as a musical experience, if not
>economically. The problem is that there are fewer clubs offering live music
>and fewer still where an artist or band can even break even on the
>night.
There are lots of live music clubs, just not too many that feature
unknown local bands. I can open the newspaper any night of the week and
find twenty or more clubs with live music. No shortage there.
Seriously, you're selling yourself short if you ignore the music scene
just across the river. Don't get the idea that across the river is "The
'Burbs." Hoboken is just as urban as Brooklyn Heights, maybe more so.
Hardly a tree in sight. Makes a NYC-er feel right at home <grin>!
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
gan...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com
>fact of life for NYC musicians: most of us don't own vehicles. The cost of
>garaging, insuring and maintaining a car in NYC is a luxury way beyond the
>means of most musicians so the clubs you mentioned might as well be located
>in Fairbanks.
When I lived in Hoboken, I took the PATH trains in and out of New York City
and frequently found that I had easier access to many NYC clubs than
friends of minw who lived in the city. Overnight service is less frequent
than rush hour, but it does cross the river. Musicians from NYC have
done the same (ride the PATH) to get to gigs in Hoboken.
>Back in the good ol' days you didn't need a car to work in the city. There
>were enough clubs supporting local music within geographical NYC that all
>you needed was a Checker cab (which have also disappeared... sigh). It's
>the loss of these clubs that I was referring to.
You still don't need a car to work in Hoboken. But it certainly isn't
just a matter of hopping into a cab. And, the amount of equipment you
have to carry makes a big difference. A piano player going to a club that
had a piano available or a singer/songwriter who just had to lug a
guitar could do it pretty easily. A band with a full drum kit and
a dozen keyboards couldn't.
o
--- --- Lance F. Larsen
| //
| // l...@quartet.att.com
o |// o att!quartet!lfl
|/ attmail!llarsen
|
--- 908-949-4156 (Holmdel)
o
Steve Manes
: Steve Manes <ma...@magpie.com> wrote:
: >The metro area is indeed part of NYC, but I've also said (several times)
: >that I'm not talking about the suburbs but geographic, urban NYC.
: Hoboken is literally just across the river from Soho and Tribeca and
: supports a club scene that's what NYC should be. It's as urban as parts
: of NYC.
Dude, you're arguing about the rivers, which have been traditional barriers
to vehicle-less NYC musicians for as long as there have been NYC musicians.
I can take a cab with my stuff to play a club Soho or Tribeca and I won't
have any problems finding one to take me back at 3am. A cab to Hoboken via
the Holland or Lincoln Tunnels would cost me at least $25 (TLC regs say you
pay twice the meter once you leave Manhattan, plus return tunnel tolls) just
to get there.
: But then again, live music in NYC is a glut commodity -- there's so much
: good music that its hard to get an audience to listen to unknown bands,
: unless they play in places that cater to new music. And there's a
: limited audience for that.
There's a big audience for unknown, NY music. Back when music clubs like
Mikell's, Seventh Avenue South, SIN, Trax, JPs, Saint Adrian's, Delta 88 and
others featured nothing but local talent, they were packed. They all either
went under due to high rents or developed such bad reputations screwing
musicians that they couldn't get decent acts to play anymore. Two more good
clubs will probably go under this year on account of skyrocketing rents.
The Bitter End and Art D'Lugoff's Village Gate are both fighting eviction
attempts now.
: Seriously, you're selling yourself short if you ignore the music scene
: just across the river. Don't get the idea that across the river is "The
: 'Burbs." Hoboken is just as urban as Brooklyn Heights, maybe more so.
: Hardly a tree in sight. Makes a NYC-er feel right at home <grin>!
I love Hoboken and I love Brooklyn Heights. But, as I've said several
times, they might as well be in upstate NY for all their accessibility to
most NYC musicians who don't have vehicles. I own a restaurant in Brooklyn
Heights and it's like pulling teeth just trying to get Manhattan friends to
drop in for a free meal WITHOUT their instruments. Even though we're a
short, pretty walk to all trains and are the first subway stop after leaving
Manhattan, there's a psychological wall that's always surrounded Manhattan.
Did you ever see the NY Magazine cover of the map of the United States as
drawn from the perspective of a Manhattan resident? In it, Jersey City is
right next to Chicago.
Steve Manes
: When I lived in Hoboken, I took the PATH trains in and out of New York City
: and frequently found that I had easier access to many NYC clubs than
: friends of minw who lived in the city. Overnight service is less frequent
: than rush hour, but it does cross the river. Musicians from NYC have
: done the same (ride the PATH) to get to gigs in Hoboken.
Overnight service is nonexistent on half the PATH lines (only the Newark and
Hoboken lines run in the evening). It's really impractical trying to haul
an amp, bass and gig bag via PATH anyway. I got grief from a cop just
trying to bring a bicycle on the train this summer.
Frank Brickle
> gan...@cbnewsj.cb.att.com wrote:
> : When I lived in Hoboken, I took the PATH trains in and out of New York City
> : and frequently found that I had easier access to many NYC clubs than
> : friends of minw who lived in the city. Overnight service is less frequent
> : than rush hour, but it does cross the river. Musicians from NYC have
> : done the same (ride the PATH) to get to gigs in Hoboken.
>
> Overnight service is nonexistent on half the PATH lines (only the Newark and
> Hoboken lines run in the evening). It's really impractical trying to haul
> an amp, bass and gig bag via PATH anyway. I got grief from a cop just
> trying to bring a bicycle on the train this summer.
>
Sitting in the 8th St. station at 2 AM for 30 or 40 minutes watching the
mice run along the third rail is kind of amusing for the first couple of
dozen times you do it, especially if you're going home after a concert
where a piece of your own has been butchered, but it starts to get stale
after that.