SCMS Not a problem for music makers.
Scott Fisher
hassles for copying your masters.
First RECORD YOUR MASTERS AT 48 KHz, SCMS is not implimented at this
sample rate, thus causes no problem.
Before you get excited, There is NO problem DIGITALLY converting 48 KHz
to 44.1 KHZ. The result will be INDISTINGUISHABLE from the same material
originally recorded at 44.1 KHz. All the horror stories you may have heard
are based on assumptions of WIERD conversion techniques that no one uses.
AND you only need to convert to 44.1 KHz if and when you are going to press
your CDs. So to you, there is and will be NO PROBLEM in working with a
48 KHz master anyway.
The CD mastering place may or may not charge you to convert between the
two sample rates. Phone up and check out. If they do charge it should
not be much in comparison to the cost of the CDs you are having pressed.
If it is then go somewhere else. Once again shop around.
The other alternative is to buy a Pro deck. Then you can make as many copies
as you like. However this brings me to a point that has been bugging me.
Even if you do something as bizzare as mastering at 44.1 KHz on an SCMS deck,
you can make as many DIGITAL copies from your original master as you like.
Make 4 copies. What's the problem? Think about it, how many backup copies
do you have of your analog masters? How many backup copies do you have of
your computer software?
Think about this, when you come to DIGITALLY copy your DAT tape
you will need at least two decks. If you really get stuck with a
protected copy of your 44.1 KHz master, what's the problem with borrowing/
hiring a Pro Deck? You are going to need to get another deck from somewhere.
As I said, if you did this at 48 KHz in the first place you would not be in
this mess.
If you do the conversion to 44.1 KHz via an analog step, ie...
44.1 Khz recording from the analog outputs of a deck playing a 48 Khz master.
The resultant 44.1 KHz recording will sound just as good as if you had started
out at 44.1 KHz. I think once a few more of you have experience with DAT
you will see what I mean. Try a 10 generation analog bounce between DAT
machine and check it against the original.
Finally, SCMS is only a problem to people without pro decks who want to make
DIGITAL copies of a DAT tape a friend has recorded off a CD that friend
originally copied off someone else. I think that was the purpose of SCMS, and
it seems to work.
Regards Scott..........STOP WORRYING AND GET INTO DAT!!
Scott Amspoker
>I keep seeing all sorts of garbage about the SCMS causing
>hassles for copying your masters.
>
>
>Finally, SCMS is only a problem to people without pro decks who want to make
>DIGITAL copies of a DAT tape a friend has recorded off a CD that friend
>originally copied off someone else. I think that was the purpose of SCMS, and
>it seems to work.
Hmmm. If what you say is true then SCMS is really kind of a red herring.
If someone wanted to do some serious pirating all they have to do is
make one analog transfer of a CD at 48K. Then they can make all the
direct digital copies they want. A "small" user wanting
to make a copy of a friend's DAT tape can simply do an analog copy
which you say will sound just as good (and I agree). Of course,
buying a DAT tape to avoid the cost of a CD seems rather foolish at
the present.
--
Scott Amspoker | Touch the peripheral convex of every
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | kind, then various kinds of blaming
(505) 345-5232 | sound can be sent forth.
unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott | - Instructions for a little box that
| blurts out obscenities.
John Friedman
> I keep seeing all sorts of garbage about the SCMS causing
> hassles for copying your masters.
>
> First RECORD YOUR MASTERS AT 48 KHz, SCMS is not implimented at this
> sample rate, thus causes no problem.
Where did you get this information from???
I own a Panasonic SV-3700 Pro DAT unit, so I have no first hand experience
with commericial units. I have lots of friends who have commercial
units, however, and they say that SCMS IS implemented at 48kHz!!!
> Before you get excited, There is NO problem DIGITALLY converting 48 KHz
> to 44.1 KHZ.
Your statement is VERY misleading. It is a VERY challenging problem
"DIGITALLY converting 48 KHz to 44.1 KHZ"!!!
^^^^^^^^^
If you don't mind a stage of 48kHz D/A to 44.1kHz A/D, then there's no
problem. This IS NOT a purely DIGITAL conversion!!! Its a digtal-to-
analog and analog-to-digital pair of conversions!!!
> The result will be INDISTINGUISHABLE from the same material originally
> recorded at 44.1 KHz.
I would tend to agree with you, although I've never done any such testing
myself. MIX Magazine did some tests with multiple D/A to A/D generations.
They found that it took upwards of 20 such generations before there was
noticable degradation through blind listener tests. Their tests used
very consistent, high quality and well tuned machines, however.
> All the horror stories you may have heard are based on assumptions of
> WIERD conversion techniques that no one uses.
What conversion techniques are you speaking of?
> AND you only need to convert to 44.1 KHz if and when you are going to
> press your CDs. So to you, there is and will be NO PROBLEM in working
> with a 48 KHz master anyway.
Again, where did you get this information about 48kHz SCMS operation?
> The CD mastering place may or may not charge you to convert between the
> two sample rates. Phone up and check out. If they do charge it should
> not be much in comparison to the cost of the CDs you are having pressed.
> If it is then go somewhere else. Once again shop around.
If they are simple doing a 48kHz D/A to 44.1kHz A/D and charging you for
it, then they are jerks!
> The other alternative is to buy a Pro deck.
:-)
> Then you can make as many copies as you like. However this brings me
> to a point that has been bugging me. Even if you do something as
> bizzare as mastering at 44.1 KHz on an SCMS deck, you can make as
> many DIGITAL copies from your original master as you like.
True.
> Make 4 copies. What's the problem? Think about it, how many backup
> copies do you have of your analog masters?
Digital media tend to map into the "back-up" mentality much more than
analog medi, since the copy is a good as the original.
> How many backup copies do you have of your computer software?
Plenty for the software that I never have problems with - none for the
disks that get eaten!
> Think about this, when you come to DIGITALLY copy your DAT tape
> you will need at least two decks. If you really get stuck with a
> protected copy of your 44.1 KHz master, what's the problem with borrowing/
> hiring a Pro Deck? You are going to need to get another deck from somewhere.
This is the approach I'm taking - one pro unit, one commercial unit.
> As I said, if you did this at 48 KHz in the first place you would not be in
> this mess.
See above.
> If you do the conversion to 44.1 KHz via an analog step, ie...
> 44.1 Khz recording from the analog outputs of a deck playing a 48 Khz
> master. The resultant 44.1 KHz recording will sound just as good as if
> you had started out at 44.1 KHz.
Again, I tend to agree with you on this.
> I think once a few more of you have experience with DAT you will see what
> I mean. Try a 10 generation analog bounce between DAT machine and check
> it against the original.
The MIX Mag tests prove it, in relatively ideal conditions.
> Finally, SCMS is only a problem to people without pro decks who want to
> make DIGITAL copies of a DAT tape a friend has recorded off a CD that
> friend originally copied off someone else. I think that was the purpose
> of SCMS, and it seems to work.
I agree. Unfortunately, I do a lot of trading of non-CD original source
material, so SCMS is a real DRAG, even at 48kHz!!!
> Regards Scott..........STOP WORRYING AND GET INTO DAT!!
Ditto!
John F. Whitehead
>I keep seeing all sorts of garbage about the SCMS causing
>hassles for copying your masters.
But you've added some of your own...
>First RECORD YOUR MASTERS AT 48 KHz, SCMS is not implimented at this
>sample rate, thus causes no problem.
This is not true. SCMS is implemented at both 44.1 and 48 KHz.
>The CD mastering place may or may not charge you to convert between the
>two sample rates. Phone up and check out. If they do charge it should
>not be much in comparison to the cost of the CDs you are having pressed.
Most places charge around $200 for the conversion.
>The other alternative is to buy a Pro deck. Then you can make as many copies
>as you like. However this brings me to a point that has been bugging me.
>Even if you do something as bizzare as mastering at 44.1 KHz on an SCMS deck,
Not bizarre when the final version is going to be 44.1 KHz. Saves you time,
money, and a generation of degradation (which, as you mention, probably is
not going to be very noticeable).
>If you do the conversion to 44.1 KHz via an analog step, ie...
>44.1 Khz recording from the analog outputs of a deck playing a 48 Khz master.
>The resultant 44.1 KHz recording will sound just as good as if you had started
>out at 44.1 KHz. I think once a few more of you have experience with DAT
>you will see what I mean. Try a 10 generation analog bounce between DAT
>machine and check it against the original.
*Almost* as good. Mix magazine did such a test, and they noticed some
phase problems after 20 analog copies. The denser the music the less
noticeable the degradation.
>Finally, SCMS is only a problem to people without pro decks who want to make
>DIGITAL copies of a DAT tape a friend has recorded off a CD that friend
>originally copied off someone else.
Not true; it affects copies of any derivation.
>I think that was the purpose of SCMS, and it seems to work.
That probably was the original purpose, but it doesn't work because the
way in which it has been implemented in reality is that it
blocks you from making digital copies of *any* digital copies, whether
the original source was a CD or your microphone. When the source is
unknown it assumes that it should be uncopyable.
John Whitehead Internet: j...@neuro.duke.edu
Department of Neurobiology j...@well.sf.ca.us
Duke University Medical Center Bitnet: white002@dukemc
Durham, North Carolina