Trouble with a Schilke 13 A4A
ThtreGrrl
upper registers so I borrowed one from the music store to try out. I've been
practicing with it for 3 days now and I can barely reach above middle C. Is
anyone familiar and able to offer some pointers on playing with it? I'm
wondering if there's something special "mechanics" wise that I need to be
doing. The mouthpiece I normally use is a Yamaha 14B4. Maybe there's a better
mouthpiece than the 13A4A that I should try out.
Thank you if you can help!!
carl Dershem
It may be too narrow for you. I'd recommend a 14A4 or 14A4a for you, as they're
closer in rim size to what you're used to, but enough shallower to give some added
feedback/support.
But air's a better tool than brass.
David Griffin
progression. It is VERY shallow, much shallower than the Yamaha 14B you are
playing. It is even shallower than the Schilke 14A4a. The Schilke "artist"
mouthpieces don't fall in the "gaps" of sizes as you would expect. Try the Yamaha
14A4a. It's slightly deeper and smaller in diameter than the Schilke 14A4a with not
quite as tight a backbore. Despite Yamaha copying the Schilke numbering system,
they really aren't the same. But the Yamaha's are closer to each other in sizes. In
other words, switching from the Yamaha 14B4 to the Yamaha 14A4a is a little less
drastic move than to a Schilke 14A4a and quite a bit less drastic than to a Schilke
13A4a.
David
Stanton
you must ABSOLUTLEY forget about the numbers game. If you're happy with
your playing, you should not be changing your mechanics to accomodate the
equipment, but find the equipment that makes your job easier. If it doesn't
do that, its simply not for you.
A mouthpiece such as the 13a4a will not give you more range, but may help
you play at the high extreme of your range for a longer time. Often this is
at the sacrifice of your sound. Chances are, you'd be better off with a
mouthpiece of the same rim diameter, with a bit shallower cup and whatever
backbore suits your mechanics. There are 1000's or even millions of possible
combinations.
Chalk your experience with the 13a4a as a failed experiment and good
learning experience.
Good luck,
Stanton
----------
In article <20000108152000...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, thtr...@aol.com
Christopher Barry
>upper registers so I borrowed one from the music store to try out. I've been
>practicing with it for 3 days now and I can barely reach above middle C.
If I'm not mistaken the last "a" in Shilke 13A4a signifies a tighter
backbore. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the reason you're having
trouble playing above "middle" C, as you mention, must be this tighter
bore.
If a tighter bore is so restrictive for your playing that it limits
your range, that suggests that your embouchure's aperture (say that
10x fast) is (anyone?) ...tends to be more open than some? or,
..more closed than some?
I'm not quite embarrassed to say I don't know which of the above is
true, open or closed, but you get the point... the mouthpiece's throat
and backbore have to complement your embouchure. Same issues come up
when you pick a picc. mouthpiece.
I highly recommend you talk with Phyllis Stork... and try & buy a
Stork! Very knowledgable, customized service.
http://plainfield.bypass.com/~stork/index.html
Parfing
opinions about mouthpieces, so please be nice :-) )
If the Shilke is not working out for you, just go back to the Yamaha 14B4. What
works for some people may be terrible for others.
If you are looking for a new mouthpiece, however, here are some pointers I took
from a Woodwind and Brasswind catalog:
Large Cup Diameter: large volume, less cracked tones
Small Cup Diameter: requires little strength, limits tone
Deep Cup: improves tone
Shallow Cup: HIGH NOTES! (I think they're harder to play)
Rounded Rim: helps people w/ crooked teeth
Wide Rim: increases endurance, less flexibility
Narrow Rim: wide range of pitch
Sharp Innter Rim Edge: metalic tone, reliable attacks
-David
"God makes some people trumpet players; others are less fortunate."
Turbotrump
offer some things for you to consider.
A little backgound would help, but I'll take a cut at this, making some
assumptions and asking for some more info here and there.
Where do you you normally position the mpc on your chops? i.e. 2/3 top & 1/3
bottom, 1/2 & 1/2, 1/3 top & 2/3 bottom, etc.?
When playing on the 13A4a, do your lips (top, bottom, or both) feel like they
are "bottoming out"? Does it feel like the lips are contacting the cup thereby
reducing freedom of lip vibration?
Going from a Yamaha 14B4 to the Schilke 13A4a should not be a very radical
difference and certainly should not reduce your upper range.
The only thing I can think of, which I encountered a long time ago switching
from a Schilke 24 to a Schilke 14A4, was that I was letting too much of the
lips go into the cup. With a shallow cup, I find that I have to conciously
think "keep the lips flat, don't let them go "into" the cup beyond the rim".
One other thing is to really think hard about NOT using more mpc pressure via
the left arm or "octave key" right hand pinky.
I can just picture the following: "Wow, I got this neato hi-note mpc, I'm gonna
scream now.... subconciously jamming the poor lips harder and harder against
the teeth with just the opposite effect, reduced range :(
Relax, keep the air flow high, and think about a tight embouchure doing the
work, not the magic mpc.
Hope this helps, or at least your response to the questions will generate some
feedback from the others.
Larry Woods
thtregrrl writes:
I've heard other trumpet players recommend the Schilke 13 A4A to play in the
upper registers so I borrowed one from the music store to try out. I've been
DHoff56012
>you must ABSOLUTLEY forget about the numbers game. If you're happy with
>your playing, you should not be changing your mechanics to accomodate the
>equipment, but find the equipment that makes your job easier. If it doesn't
>do that, its simply not for you.
>
>A mouthpiece such as the 13a4a will not give you more range, but may help
>you play at the high extreme of your range for a longer time. Often this is
>at the sacrifice of your sound. Chances are, you'd be better off with a
>mouthpiece of the same rim diameter, with a bit shallower cup and whatever
>backbore suits your mechanics. There are 1000's or even millions of possible
>combinations.
>
>Chalk your experience with the 13a4a as a failed experiment and good
>learning experience.
>
>Good luck,
>Stanton
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I just had to add that. Very good advice, Stanton.
David
Trayne102
>A mouthpiece such as the 13a4a will not give you more range, but may help
>you play at the high extreme of your range for a longer time. Often this is
>at the sacrifice of your sound. Chances are, you'd be better off with a
>mouthpiece of the same rim diameter, with a bit shallower cup and whatever
>backbore suits your mechanics.
Stanton,
With all due respects, and a bit of devil's advocate, I find your response to
be a bit too much on the "fire and brimstone" side. The original poster wrote:"
The mouthpiece I normally use is a Yamaha 14B4. Maybe there's a better
mouthpiece than the 13A4A that I should try out."
Stanton, aren't you the original poster of the "How many mouthpieces do you
own?" thread? Bottom line is that most all of us at one time or another have
experimented with a new mouthpiece in order to find that one mouthpiece that
might make the upper range so much easier that it infact added a few new notes.
The original poster said that he normally uses a Yamaha 14B4. The Schilke
13A4a, and the Yamaha 14B4 have the exact same rim diameter! The only
difference is that the Schilke MP is somewhat shallower, and the backbore is a
tad narrower. Didn't you suggest to the original poster to try a mouthpiece
with the same rim diameter but with a shallower cup? Well, he followed your
suggestion before you even suggested it.
My suggestion is a bit different. If the original poster played fine on the
Yamaha 14B4, but is having major league problems with the Schilke 13A4a, and
can't play above a 3rd space c, then something is wrong with his approach to
the mouthpiece. Perhaps he is spreading his lips? Since the edge of the rim
varies from mouthpiece tp mouthpiece perhaps he is unknowingly changing his
mouthpiece placement? I would suggest that this poster seek a qualified
teacher with his problem, and see what this teacher feels is the underlying
cause for the problem. Furthermore, I always hear that bigger is better, and
smaller is bad. I tend to disagree with this diatribe. I can play on any
size piece, but I find smaller diameters feel (fit)better on my small width
mouth, and that intonation is far better on a smaller piece than a larger one.
As far as sound quality is concerned - if your playing with a closed lip
aperature, and the cup isn't too shallow, you should produce a decent sound.
The only difference I have experienced is Brightness versus Darkness of sound.
Again, this post was not written to denigrate anyone, but solely written to
express my own personal opinion
Sincerely,
Wayne
PS -BTW, rim conture affects endurance, not the rim diameteror the depth of the
cup.
Dave Smythe
> The original poster said that he normally uses a Yamaha 14B4. The Schilke
> 13A4a, and the Yamaha 14B4 have the exact same rim diameter!
Not according to the Schilke mouthpiece chart:
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Schilke%20Mouthpieces.html
The 13A4A is a .660 rim and the 14B4 is a .670+
> The only
> difference is that the Schilke MP is somewhat shallower, and the backbore is a
> tad narrower.
Didn't Stanton point out that it was an "artist model?" Here's the
comment from the above page on that:
"A note about Artist Models: These mouthpieces were developed by
Schilke for particular players. In some cases, these mouthpieces were
thought to be sufficiently attractive that they were added to the
catalog as a stock item. They are, however, first a custom mouthpiece
for a particular player, and not necessarily made in response to a
recipe and assembled of the various parts. Rather there may be some
individual touches that may betray some of Schilke's superior
consistency. For example, one would assume that the 14A4a is merely a
slightly wider version of the Schilke 13A4a, but that cup depth, bore
backbore and rim would all be the same. Not so: the cup contour of the
13A4a is very different from the 14A4a. The 14A4a is a gentle bowl
shaped cup, the cup on the 13A4a drops quickly straight down from the
rim and there meets a shallow V shaped bottom cup; very different from
a 14A4a. There are other similar examples. The point is that the
Artists Model may disrupt your attempt to logically evaluate
mouthpieces because the predictability of the Schilke system is
fractured. Good luck anyway."
> I would suggest that this poster seek a qualified
> teacher with his problem, and see what this teacher feels is the underlying
> cause for the problem.
Always good advice.
D
--
===============================================================================
dsm...@cs.stanford.edu
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~dsmythe/home.html
bugleboy
I had a problem when the cup got the shallower because my lips touched
the inner wall.
You may want to see if your lips are touching the inner wall when you
can not make sounds. Our lips will be swolen when we play. Chances of
this problem will increase.
Even though the paper spec said the same diameter, it is not the same
because all manufacturers do not use the same standards.
I noticed when the cup diameter got smaller, I tended to miss notes and
heard my tonguing becoming inaccurate.
If this is your symptom, your Schilke may be small for you.
As I discribed, in my case, the big issues were the cup shape (I can't
take a shallower cup) and diameter (I cannot take a smaller one). The
cup size and diameters are the important parameters for me.
Throat and backbore affect my tone quality. However, they did not
affect my ability to make high notes. I can make high notes with Bach
1B.
I hope this helps.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Stanton
Actually it didn't come out the way I intended.
In my own experience though, I happen to like the 12a4a very much but sound
like garbage on the 13a4a. I also like the Monette B6L, or a Reeves 42m
custom. But when I use these mouthpieces, the sound I'm trying to achieve
is much different than when I'm playing my Mt Vernon 1 1/2C (copy). However,
my range is no different on any of the mouthpieces. I guess I was
questioning why the original poster wanted to change at all.
Thanks for pointing out the deficiencies in my statements. I'll try to be
clearer next time.
Stanton
In article <20000109155947...@ng-fl1.aol.com>, tray...@aol.com
Kelly McDowell
on a 13a4a and can hardly play on a 14a4a. Find something that seems to
work on your chops and then just keep practicing.
Kelly McDowell
WAYNE P BRENNER
Jim Donaldson pointed out that the Yamaha mouthpieces are one size smaller
than their Shilke counterparts.
So, they should be nearly exact, with any tiny difference due to 'Artist
mode' customizations.
Shilke makes the same mouthpiece without the tight backbore, something to
try out if one is in stock at the local music store. As many of you know,
it is the 13A4. I kind of liked that one, but it doesn't work with my
receiver so I never really got to see how it would work for me. It should
have a similar resistance to the Yamaha 14B.
There are alot of biting remarks around the group for experimenting with
mouthpieces. On another thread, someone was flamed for being curious which
Shilke size would compare to the size mouthpiece of another brand that the
poster was already playing. If the poster was pretty sure that a certain
diameter cup was good for him, but maybe was curious about comfort, or
different feel that other backbores may provide, why suggest that he should
forever be in the dark about such possibilities? Because real trumpet
players aren't supposed to be concerned? Because real trumpet players
practice so diligently that they don't need to know what equipment could be
available to them? Maybe their beginning band teacher, whose main
instrument is cello, told the student that he should be using a Bach 7C. So
the student should not try anything else later in life if he can't quantify
why his current equipment might not be the best for him?
I am currently trying a few different options. Already I have had some
surprises with what works for me, even after thinking that I was playing on
the best thing for me. I will be careful not to mention anything else, at
least until I am finished checking out a couple things that have me curious.
It has been pointed out that mouthpiece mania is to be avoided, and for good
reasons. However, I personally like to stay away from the other extreme
also.
Wayne Brenner
Anaheim CA
Dave Smythe <dsm...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:38791168...@cs.stanford.edu...
> Trayne102 wrote:
> > The original poster said that he normally uses a Yamaha 14B4. The
Schilke
> > 13A4a, and the Yamaha 14B4 have the exact same rim diameter!
>
> Not according to the Schilke mouthpiece chart:
>
> http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Schilke%20Mouthpieces.html
>
> The 13A4A is a .660 rim and the 14B4 is a .670+
>
> > The only
> > difference is that the Schilke MP is somewhat shallower, and the
backbore is a
> > tad narrower.
>
> Didn't Stanton point out that it was an "artist model?" Here's the
> comment from the above page on that:
> dsm...@cs.stanford.edu
> http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~dsmythe/home.html
mellon
WAYNE P BRENNER <WAYNE....@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:85p5tu$3n92$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com...
Toshi Clark
"WAYNE P BRENNER" <WAYNE....@prodigy.net> wrote:
> There are alot of biting remarks around the group for experimenting
> with mouthpieces. On another thread, someone was flamed for being
> curious which Shilke [sic] size would compare to the size mouthpiece
> of another brand that the poster was already playing. If the poster
> was pretty sure that a certain diameter cup was good for him, but
> maybe was curious about comfort, or different feel that other
> backbores may provide, why suggest that he should forever be in the
> dark about such possibilities? Because real trumpet players aren't
> supposed to be concerned? Because real trumpet players practice so
> diligently that they don't need to know what equipment could be
> available to them?
Good points, especially that about the Schilke-Bach comparison. Although
I don't play Schilke pieces any more, I used to because of their
comfortable rims, more specifically the Schilke 14's comfortable rim.
For any Bach 3C player wishing for a bit more comfort and warmth, I
recommend trying a Schilke 14, which is of similar diameter.
--
Toshi Clark
<mailto:spiky_dog@my-deja.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jim Donaldson
>on a 13a4a and can hardly play on a 14a4a.
This is not really surprising. They are really very different, especially the
cups.
Jim Donaldson
Denver Colorado
JFDon...@aol.com
The Schilke Loyalist
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke
Lonnie Edwards
I had purchased for the Shilke mpc, I knew nothing about the Schilke
mouthpiece, just that I wasn't to happy with the MF). As stated
earlier in another post....somewhere....the rim is very comfortable and
I really like it.....and the Schilke did make it a little easier to
play higher. A range which I can really put some sound out with that
mpc is around low C up to F above high C, so I am pretty satisfied
wikth the mpc....but.....around the high F the sound does seem to thin
out a bit....I want a more full robust sound (easier said than done
right)? I haven't experimented with mouthpieces at all (I have a Bach
3C, 7C, and the Schilke) but am wondering if the problem could be
improved with a larger backbore on another mpc? Or maybe the problem
is embochure and air (Although I have never been accused of not putting
enough air thru a horn). I would like to try another mouthpiece, but I
don't wnat to go thru the hassle of finding all the comparison charts
and such. Thought I would throw out a line and see what you guys have
to say about it hmm?
bugleboy
she should not have a range problem regardless of rim diameter and cup
size. Throat and backbore affect tone quality and timbre. But they
should not cause performance problems.
Somebody has said, "There is no miracle MP. We got develop our own
chops." I feel his chops are not fully developed.
We can talk about the mechanics of MPs. However, such discussion is
usless without good chops.
Certainly Schilke is not for him. The solution is to avoid Schilke
13A4a and to develop chops with Yamaha MP. Or keep trying other MPs
which best suit him.
carl Dershem
> I play on a 13a4a/Bach 187/Getzen Eterna combination (I traded a MF mpc
> I had purchased for the Shilke mpc, I knew nothing about the Schilke
> mouthpiece, just that I wasn't to happy with the MF). As stated
> earlier in another post....somewhere....the rim is very comfortable and
> I really like it.....and the Schilke did make it a little easier to
> play higher. A range which I can really put some sound out with that
> mpc is around low C up to F above high C, so I am pretty satisfied
> wikth the mpc....but.....around the high F the sound does seem to thin
> out a bit....I want a more full robust sound (easier said than done
> right)? I haven't experimented with mouthpieces at all (I have a Bach
> 3C, 7C, and the Schilke) but am wondering if the problem could be
> improved with a larger backbore on another mpc? Or maybe the problem
> is embochure and air (Although I have never been accused of not putting
> enough air thru a horn). I would like to try another mouthpiece, but I
> don't wnat to go thru the hassle of finding all the comparison charts
> and such. Thought I would throw out a line and see what you guys have
> to say about it hmm?
> >
Instead of a larger backbore on another mouthpiece, I'd suggest another 13a4A,
bored out to a 13a4. The difference can be startling!
cd
Daveblues
>13a4A,
>bored out to a 13a4. The difference can be startling!
>
>
I've played on a 13A4 (no A) for years and I like it a lot. Open enough to be
easy blowing in the bottom range, but also gives me a bit of help above high C.
Try it.
Dave
Lonnie Edwards
with the 13A4a is from low F# to F above high C. Again, that's a range
that I can play music in. I can "hit" G and A above high C. Given a
month or two of dedicated practice I could easily include the G and A
in my range. Does that sound like an embouchure problem? That's not
an MF range, but I am pretty happy with it. I think I know where you
are coming from, in the fact that you may think that I am trying to
"squeeze" out the note and thinning out the sound, but I don't think
that is the problem. I am getting plenty of air thru the mpc, I just
thought that the bore size restricted the volume somewhat. Anyway....
bugleboy
I'm sorry for the confusion. I am referring to ThtreGrrl, the original
poster. ThtreGrrl wrote:
".....other trumpet players recommend the Schilke 13 A4A to play in the
upper registers........I've been practicing with it for 3 days now and
I can barely reach above middle C...... The mouthpiece I normally use
is a Yamaha 14B4....."
It does appear to me opening throat would not be a solution to
ThtreGrrl's problem. Nothing is wrong with Yamaha 14B4. Making 3
octaves from low F# is very possible with Yamaha 14B. I am very
inclined to say ThtreGrrl's chops are not developed yet. ThtreGrrl
needs a good teacher for chop development chops instead of switching
MPs. Nothing is wrong with Schilke 13A4A.
I hope we are still discussing on the original subject. If not, I acted
like a fool.
Lonnie Edwards
why I thought you were talking about me) and I had digressed from the
first post, instead asking for some advice of my own.