impossible question: the most versatile trumpet?
Michael Willard
I play a Bach 37, a standard silver plate, ml bore, with a 3c
mouthpiece. I have posted before about wanting a darker sound, but have
concluded my Bach is junk. It's a pain to fight with in the upper register,
though the tone is great for lead, it doesn't slot well. My range is decent
and goes to a G6 or higher(middle C=C4), and out of the choice of Bach's
that exist my friend believes I have a nice one, but it has a some problems
I am not fond of. I regret the day I got talked into buying one.
I am in college now and play lead for the Jazz Ensemble, Marching band,
Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Brass Ensemble, and Brass Quintet. I need horn
that is great for all of these as well as solo work, pit orchestra's,
accompaniment to choir's etc. I have played a lot of low brass, and easily
play blastisimo without losing intonation or tone, and I think I need a
large bore horn that I can fill out. I also want one that doesn't vibrate
like a gong.
I know that horn selection is largely based on preference, necessity,
and of course finances, but I want to find the most versatile trumpet I can.
So, I need opinions on what characteristics such a horn should have, or what
model this horn may be. I understand that the Flip Oakes Wild thing plays
nicely, and based on what I looked up so far it is a favorite among many,
but I wouldn't know personally.
My plan is to learn what I can through asking others who play to the
extant I do, and who have tried their fair share of horns. After hearing
opinions, I am going to go on a few runs to music stores so I can try some
horns out. I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
styles apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor college
student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn and I have
gotten used to playing in all these situations.
I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. A good deal
of convincing will need to be done for a Yamaha as well. And I am aware of
the affect Mouthpiece selection has on any choice(give me some credit).
Here's a list of top manufacturers I am aware of. Tell me of any other good
manufacturers, and tell me what would be your dream horn. I don't expect to
have the money to buy some of these horns, but still want opinions, please.
I am particularly interested in flip oakes, edwards, taylor, and
evolution.
Kanstul:
flip oakes wild thing
edwards
Generation X Bb(any opinions on vented valves?)
Generation II Bb
taylor
leblanc:
Evolution
benge
calicchio
blackburn
monette
stomvi
lawler
Simon Richards
but I did notice that you left Schilke out of your list.
--
Simon Richards
http://freespace.virgin.net/sd.richards
http://www.durnovaria-silver-band.org.uk
WWise72606
I play a Bach 37 >>
Easy answer-The horn in the hands of the most versatile trumpet player.
Wilmer
That horn in that pretty case makes not one sound.
Mark Bradley
> I don't have any advice to offer you (I play a Bach Bb and a Yamaha Eb/D)
> but I did notice that you left Schilke out of your list.
And Kanstul's own horns, along with the Stamm Bessons (made by
Kanstul)... not just the Wild Thing, which is something of an
independent entity. Also, don't discount the Conn Vintage One-- they
should be among the easiest to try out because UMI instruments are
sold in local music stores just about everywhere in the U.S.
Dr. Trumpet
Let me start by saying there is no perfect horn for any situation, only the
perfect player. I select a trumpet because it plays the way I want to sound the
easiest. If I pick a horn designed for lead trumpet playing, and then cuss at
it when I stuggle to play classical style music with a different tonal concept
than the horn was designed for (hence, fighting the horn), then I am the one at
fault, and not the horn.
> Ok, big question here. One I will probably want to discuss thoroughly.
> I play a Bach 37, a standard silver plate, ml bore, with a 3c
> mouthpiece. I have posted before about wanting a darker sound, but have
> concluded my Bach is junk. It's a pain to fight with in the upper register,
> though the tone is great for lead, it doesn't slot well. My range is decent
> and goes to a G6 or higher(middle C=C4), and out of the choice of Bach's
> that exist my friend believes I have a nice one, but it has a some problems
> I am not fond of. I regret the day I got talked into buying one.
Why? The Bach 37 is the de facto standard for trumpet. Whether or not it works
for you now, it worked well enough to get you into college and into the below
mentioned ensembles. Don't totally discount it just because it isn't the best
horn for you now. At one time, it may have been!
> I am in college now and play lead for the Jazz Ensemble, Marching band,
> Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Brass Ensemble, and Brass Quintet. I need horn
> that is great for all of these as well as solo work, pit orchestra's,
> accompaniment to choir's etc.
You need a clear concept for each, not a horn for each. A versatile concept is
far more important than anything else. I play a Bach 37 gold plated for all you
mention, and adjust my mouthpiece selection for the style and tone I need,
selecting the mouthpiece that helps me to most easily create the tone and
response I want for each particular style of music.
> I have played a lot of low brass, and easily
> play blastisimo without losing intonation or tone, and I think I need a
> large bore horn that I can fill out. I also want one that doesn't vibrate
> like a gong.
Better to develop control of the embouchure and the air stream. You will learn
more and be a better player for it. Why in the world would anyone want a
trumpet that doesn't create an open, resonant tone quality?
> I know that horn selection is largely based on preference, necessity,
> and of course finances, but I want to find the most versatile trumpet I can.
> So, I need opinions on what characteristics such a horn should have, or what
> model this horn may be. I understand that the Flip Oakes Wild thing plays
> nicely, and based on what I looked up so far it is a favorite among many,
> but I wouldn't know personally.
And, at a little over $2000, it is an expensive "maybe". Fortunately, Flip did
and maybe still does offer a full guarentee, and I know that Blackburn and
Monette do as well. Those would help, but Flip's horn is the least expensive of
the three mentioned.
> My plan is to learn what I can through asking others who play to the
> extant I do, and who have tried their fair share of horns. After hearing
> opinions, I am going to go on a few runs to music stores so I can try some
> horns out.
Most music stores will not carry most of the instruments you mention below.
> I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
> styles apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor college
> student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn and I have
> gotten used to playing in all these situations.
Nice but unrealistic. If you wish to play baroque music, a good picc is
required. If you want to do combo jazz, a flugel is an excellent second horn.
The least necesasary instrument you list is a C trumpet.
> I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. A good deal
> of convincing will need to be done for a Yamaha as well. And I am aware of
> the affect Mouthpiece selection has on any choice(give me some credit).
Then you should know that the mouthpiece can often alter the instrument far more
than the instrument itself. I would be willing to bet that you have ignore, or
at least minimized, the effect of the mouthpiece in an effort to find a better
instrument, which is fine. However, many other variables exist beside the horn.
> Here's a list of top manufacturers I am aware of. Tell me of any other good
> manufacturers, and tell me what would be your dream horn. I don't expect to
> have the money to buy some of these horns, but still want opinions, please.
> I am particularly interested in flip oakes, edwards, taylor, and
> evolution.
>
> Kanstul:
> flip oakes wild thing
Special order only.
> edwards
Most say no.
> Generation X Bb(any opinions on vented valves?)
> Generation II Bb
> taylor
Monette copies, but good ones.
> leblanc:
> Evolution
find a local dealer who has one.
> benge
Conn Vintage One would be a far better choice, although finding one to play
seems to be a bit of a problem....they don't stay in stores long!
> calicchio
See leblanc. I've only seen them in very limited quantities at the Mars stores,
and almost nowhere else. Great trumpets....if you can get them.
> blackburn
Custom made.....2 year wait last time I talked with Cliff.
> monette
Custom made. 12-14 months wait on the web site; difference is that David has 6
guys working for him, while Cliff has himself, Bunny and Tina.
> stomvi
Not impressed with the ones I've played, but worth a look in the interest of
total coverage. Frank Pulcini sounded great on his at ITG 2000 in NYW with the
Epsilon Brass.
> lawler
Again, a custom horn, made to order, with a wait.
Your list is heavily ladden with very limited production instruments, or custom
models that require an order, a substantial wait, and a lot of money.
Looking into a good Kanstul signature series might be a great idea, as well as
looking into the Vintage One from Conn. Maybe even a B & S, which while Bach
copies, frequently get rave reviews here. The selection is limited, especially
when on considers the advances in music technology. Seems as though Bachs run
as the king has driven a number of other manufacturers to create horns that
simply are not good, while others are custom makers for players who have the
capital and the desire to have a a truly custom instrument.
Money may end up being the limiting factor. Rarely is quality cheap.
AL
franklin
I know exactly how you feel. I played on an old ML Bach 37 in high
school/college that I just hated. This year, after playing on large
bore schilkes for the past several years, I decided to try a new
trumpet. I went to Chuck Levin's and tried several horns including:
Kanstul 1500, Kanstul 1500A, Yamaha Xeno, Kanstul WB, Schilke S32. Of
all those, the only one I liked was the Kanstul 1500. I was pretty
sure I was going to get it and I asked the salesman(Roger Keiper) if
there were any other horns he could recommend. He suggested a Bach and
I immediately got defensive telling him how crappy I thought bachs
were and how much I hated my Bach37. He asked me if I wanted something
versatile and I say yes. So he goes and picks out a Bach LR180S-37 and
had me try it. I can't tell you how shocked I was. I immediately fell
in love with this horn. The reverse leadpipe, lightweight body and
regular weight bell is a great design. It responds great and sounds
even better. I quickly sold my Schilke X3Lb on Ebay and one week later
I bought that bach. Still in love with it...
Franklin
"Michael Willard" <wil...@cannet.com> wrote in message
David Griffin
valve alignment and mouthpiece "gap".
David
Michael Willard wrote in message <9sfr4k$4io$1...@plonk.apk.net>...
WWise72606
> I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. >>
Adolph Herseth and the Chicago Symphony section.
William Vacchiano and most of the NY Philharmonic section,Prager played a
Besson Bb.
The Philadelphia Orchestra section except for S. Rosenfeld, F. Kaderabek.
Most of the symphonic players in this world, you know, the guys who get PAID
for the sounds they produce, play that unspeakable horn.
All those horns are flukes.
Or could it be the players?
Wilmer
Greg Evans
> All those horns are flukes.
> Or could it be the players?
If the players have flukes, how do they work the valves??
jazz...@hotmail.com
WWise72606
> I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. >> >>
Did I mention that almost every Broadway Show has a few of those unmentionable
horns in the trumpet section.
Les Miz, Phantom, Music Man and many other shows.
What do those guys know.
The Vangaurd Band use those horns.
SNL use those horns.
But.............................It is the player that makes the music, not the
horn.
Wilmer
Greg Evans
> > If the players have flukes, how do they work the valves??
>
> They get help from the fluke section, of course.
*groan*!
bach37
Unless you have some serious cash to throw around, you should just keep the
37 and spend your money on a C trumpet, or a pic.
-Scott
Michael Droste
construction, valves, intonation, tone quality and overall aspects of
the R32.
Construction
The horn is very well constructed and will last over the long haul.
The left thumb U hook and right third valve loop are slightly
oversized in width and really make the horn comfortable to hold.
Through trial and error, I have found that large bore horns are not
for me. I like the resistance of the smaller bore horns and want the
horn to help play in the upper register. The Calicchio R32 has the
smaller specialized Studio 2 Lead pipe that makes playing in the upper
register, very easy, with no strain. The five inch R3 bell produces
great projection from minimal player effort. Through its construction
and the increase of copper in the horn, it has a very consistent feel
as one plays from the lower octave through the upper octaves, very
smooth.
Valves
The R32 valves are FANTASTIC! They are extremely fast. Due to the flat
oversized finger buttons, I can actually play faster. The valves slot
well, yet also allow for flexibility in jazz situations.
Intonation
The horn slots well in a very smooth fashion. It allows for
flexibility, but also locks in the pitch easily. The intonation is
excellent and has not been an issue.
Tone Quality
Because of the higher copper content, this horn gravitates towards a
beautiful warm rich tone.
The R32 projects well and is extremely smooth and pleasing to the ear.
It is very versatile for many musical styles. The sound blends well
with other instruments: piano, organ and brass players.
Conclusion:
The Calicchio R32 has all the features you have always wanted. It
seems as though everyone's wish list came together to make this one.
It is a very flexible horn with a warm rich sound that you will enjoy
playing for many years. This horn incredibly makes tonguing, range,
double tonguing, endurance, and flexibility easier. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND
IT! I haven't played a nicer horn.
-Best
Michael Droste
TrumpetStudio.com
Keith Sladen
To go off at a tangent - who are the group's nominations for most
versatile trumpet player? I would call it a close thing between Doc
and Kenny Baker.
Michael Willard
"David Griffin" <gri...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:9D9C0549AC63165F.17A33EDF...@lp.airnews.net...
> I know you don't want to hear it, but slotting problems can be a function
of
> valve alignment and mouthpiece "gap".
>
> David
Likely due to the poor, and out of date craftmanship of the Bach, David. I
understand these problems, but I don't think it's right for me to buy a horn
that needs professional attention to the valve alignment, or to a design
flaw causing mouthpiece Gap.
Michael Willard
the intent to my question unlike some of these others.
"Michael Droste" <drg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e0bf8f68.01110...@posting.google.com...
Michael Willard
"Simon Richards" <s.ric...@physics.org> wrote in message
news:9sg3mc$tpt$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Michael Willard
"WWise72606" <wwise...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011109074836...@mb-cv.aol.com...
WWise72606
How would you to have to explain the origins of Wilmer along with the Wise
part.
Otherwise.
Wilmer
Michael Willard
"Dr. Trumpet" <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dr_trpt-spamfree-AF...@news.iquest.net...
> Michael,
>
> Let me start by saying there is no perfect horn for any situation, only
the
> perfect player.
Funny, are there any perfect players out there, I'd like to meet one. Each
has their strengths and weaknesses. Is your name really "Dr. trumpet"( I
get offended by people with egos) Thank you for taking me for an idiot.
It did not get me into college I was given it because *I* earned a
scholarship playing.
I started on a rented blessing, bought a rip off used callihcio that fell
apart and spent highschool on a school owned holton collegiate horn which
had seen its better days. I auditioned to my college on a borrowed bach that
I had never played.
My back is only 2 and a half years old. I works well for me, but with
the overpowering breath support I do have from marching tuba for through
high school, playing lead trombone, participating in marching bands for
eight years, etc. I want something free blowing. Made with good
craftmanship.
>
> > I am in college now and play lead for the Jazz Ensemble, Marching
band,
> > Concert Band, Wind Ensemble, Brass Ensemble, and Brass Quintet. I need
horn
> > that is great for all of these as well as solo work, pit orchestra's,
> > accompaniment to choir's etc.
>
> You need a clear concept for each, not a horn for each.
Why am I saying I need one versatile instrument?
A versatile concept is far more important than anything else.
Yes, exactly what I am working towards developing through my deep
involvement in performing so many different styles.
> I play a Bach 37 gold plated for all you
> mention, and adjust my mouthpiece selection for the style and tone I need,
> selecting the mouthpiece that helps me to most easily create the tone and
> response I want for each particular style of music.
Look a valuable comment, yet there's still a hint of "you don't have a clue,
Michael".
> > I have played a lot of low brass, and easily
> > play blastisimo without losing intonation or tone, and I think I need a
> > large bore horn that I can fill out. I also want one that doesn't
vibrate
> > like a gong.
> Better to develop control of the embouchure and the air stream. You will
learn
> more and be a better player for it. Why in the world would anyone want a
> trumpet that doesn't create an open, resonant tone quality?
The Gong sound mentioned is that of excessive vibrations from the valves
that resonate like a Gong, and rattles that sometimes occurr when playing
certain pitches.
> > I know that horn selection is largely based on preference,
necessity,
> > and of course finances, but I want to find the most versatile trumpet I
can.
> > So, I need opinions on what characteristics such a horn should have, or
what
> > model this horn may be. I understand that the Flip Oakes Wild thing
plays
> > nicely, and based on what I looked up so far it is a favorite among
many,
> > but I wouldn't know personally.
> And, at a little over $2000, it is an expensive "maybe". Fortunately,
Flip did
> and maybe still does offer a full guarentee, and I know that Blackburn and
> Monette do as well. Those would help, but Flip's horn is the least
expensive of
> the three mentioned.
ok
> > My plan is to learn what I can through asking others who play to the
> > extant I do, and who have tried their fair share of horns. After hearing
> > opinions, I am going to go on a few runs to music stores so I can try
some
> > horns out.
> Most music stores will not carry most of the instruments you mention
below.
Am I not aware of this? Is this directed towards my question?
They do show up at conferences. And I am sure it is not impossible to find a
place to try one out. And I am not limiting considerations to this list, it
was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that I found
on the web.
> > I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
> > styles *apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor
college
> > student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn and I
have
> > gotten used to playing in all these situations.
>
> Nice but unrealistic. If you wish to play baroque music, a good picc is
> required. If you want to do combo jazz, a flugel is an excellent second
horn.
> The least necesasary instrument you list is a C trumpet.
You misunderstand that I was submiting that I know the need for the other
types of horns, notice: " apart from"
> > I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. A good
deal
> > of convincing will need to be done for a Yamaha as well. And I am aware
of
> > the affect Mouthpiece selection has on any choice(give me some credit).
> Then you should know that the mouthpiece can often alter the instrument
far more
> than the instrument itself. I would be willing to bet that you have
ignore, or
> at least minimized, the effect of the mouthpiece in an effort to find a
better
> instrument, which is fine. However, many other variables exist beside the
horn.
Did I come off this stupid?
> > Here's a list of top manufacturers I am aware of. Tell me of any other
good
> > manufacturers, and tell me what would be your dream horn. I don't expect
to
> > have the money to buy some of these horns, but still want opinions,
please.
> > I am particularly interested in flip oakes, edwards, taylor, and
> > evolution.
> >
> > Kanstul:
> > flip oakes wild thing
>
> Special order only.
yeah.
>
> > edwards
>
> Most say no.
No about what?
>
> > Generation X Bb(any opinions on vented valves?)
> > Generation II Bb
> > taylor
>
> Monette copies, but good ones.
still not telling me much
>
> > leblanc:
> > Evolution
>
> find a local dealer who has one.
I have played one both ev I and II, thank you.
>
> > benge
>
> Conn Vintage One would be a far better choice, although finding one to
play
> seems to be a bit of a problem....they don't stay in stores long!
> > calicchio
>
> See leblanc. I've only seen them in very limited quantities at the Mars
stores,
> and almost nowhere else. Great trumpets....if you can get them
I know a dealer.
>
> > blackburn
>
> Custom made.....2 year wait last time I talked with Cliff.
>
> > monette
>
> Custom made. 12-14 months wait on the web site; difference is that David
has 6
> guys working for him, while Cliff has himself, Bunny and Tina.
>
> > stomvi
>
> Not impressed with the ones I've played, but worth a look in the interest
of
> total coverage. Frank Pulcini sounded great on his at ITG 2000 in NYW
with the
> Epsilon Brass.
>
> > lawler
>
> Again, a custom horn, made to order, with a wait.
>
> Your list is heavily ladden with very limited production instruments, or
custom
> models that require an order, a substantial wait, and a lot of money.
Again... qoute from above: "I am not limiting considerations to this list,
it was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that I
found on the web."
I was hoping I could be enlighted with the names of other Manufacturers as
well.
> Looking into a good Kanstul signature series might be a great idea, as
well as
> looking into the Vintage One from Conn. Maybe even a B & S, which while
Bach
> copies, frequently get rave reviews here. The selection is limited,
especially
> when on considers the advances in music technology. Seems as though Bachs
run
> as the king has driven a number of other manufacturers to create horns
that
> simply are not good, while others are custom makers for players who have
the
> capital and the desire to have a a truly custom instrument.
>
Finally, A Comment I can Appreciate, thank you.
Sorry about my demeanor, giving the doctor some of his own medicine and
all. Some of these comments were the ones I was hoping for. I am hurt that I
wasn't taken seriously or given much credit, though.
Michael Willard
<< How wise (*moan*) >>
No offense, but I was expecting these types of comments, and I was not
looking forward to, or asking for that type of response. I understand the
horn is a standard professional model. My remark was in offense to the fact
your remark assumes that I am not aware that it takes a versatile player to
have a versatile trumpet. I don't want to get into any arguments with Bach
Loyalists. But, I also don't see value in idolizing that model as the only
way to go. I agree it is a great horn, and maybe I'll stick to it. I
certainly have gotten a lot out of mine, but I am not satisfied with it,
and have played better.
WWise72606
No offense, but I was expecting these types of comments, and I was not
looking forward to, or asking for that type of response. I understand the
horn is a standard professional model >>
No offense taken.
The best horn I ever played was a Besson that was put together by Smith,of
Smith-Watkins fame.
It was a protype.
Wilmer
Ed Grant
anybody catch the James Last special on PBS the last few months? I think it
was recorded in Seattle. Watkins stood up front and blew the place down. I
thought he was going to have a stroke. Now THAT looked like a fun gig for
the whole orchestra! (if non-stop, international gigging could ever be said
to be "fun").
Nobody has ever talked much about him in this n.g. Wonder why not?
"WWise72606" <wwise...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011109195447...@mb-cv.aol.com...
Michael Fitzgerald
>Speaking of Derek Watkins (OK...nobody was except Wilmer's mention)...
>
I was just yesterday listening to him on the Jazz Gala 1976 album (led
by Peter Herbolzheimer). Odd coincidence.
Mike
Eric Bolvin
Go try one, if you don't like it, come back and flame me into oblivion.
--
Eric Bolvin
Trumpet, arranger, composer, keyboards
SF Bay Area
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/8357
http://www.mp3.com/EricBolvin
408.236.2009
"Michael Willard" <wil...@cannet.com> wrote in message
news:9sfr4k$4io$1...@plonk.apk.net...
SiegTrmpt
>Go try one, if you don't like it, come back and flame me into oblivion.
>
Industry standard is the ML Bach 37 and is the one all others are compared to.
Instruments similar to the Bach 37 have a home in all musical settings. Not too
big or too small. The right sound for all types of music. Bill
Michael Willard
think I will certainly check it out. I don't intend to flame you if I don't
like it. I wasn't very receptive to the condescending tone some earlier
messages used, and appreciate your opinion
"Eric Bolvin" <ebj...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9si7dl$ph5$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
SiegTrmpt
>> register,
>> > though the tone is great for lead, it doesn't slot well.
Bach designed a wider pitch range into them to aid in flexibility. That's the
way they are supposed to be. Too much slotting is not necessarily a positive
trait in trumpets. I guess it's a matter of preference
WWise72606
anybody catch the James Last special on PBS the last few months? I think it
was recorded in Seattle. Watkins stood up front and blew the place down. >>
He was playing lead with Tom Jones in the 70's when I met him.
Good cat to play with, and a lot of fun to hang with!
Wilmer
David Griffin
to answer your question. Just because you wanted to hear that you should
trash your Bach and didn't get that answer, doesn't make a response
condescending. I think you over reacted when you didn't get your way.
Is it the name "Michael" (as in Schmidtt and Bookman) that makes one so
testy?
Michael Willard
"SiegTrmpt" <sieg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011109230634...@mb-mn.aol.com...
Do you mean that excess of slotting makes flexiblity more difficulty to
achieve?
I can see how that may be true.
The matter of prefference would probably be whether the player desired
slotting over flexibility. I would have to try out a horn that slotted well,
or ask someone who has to see whether it hurts or helps.
I'll have to find out.
I know that a larger diameter and sharper rim edge on the mouthpiece can
help flexibility as well, but a compromise must be met. Too sharp of a rim
and too big of a mouthpiece doesn't lend to extended hours of playing time.
This could hurt during concerts considerably. I am still in the process of
building face for larger mouthpieces. Not having private instruction till
college, I only played 7c's, when I got my bach I got it with a 5c, and then
bought the 3c that I have been on for about two years. I use it for
everything right now.
I have a bach 1-1/2c I can play comfortably, and think I will work it up
before I try to settle into one I recently bought for kicks, a CKB 1BW. WOW.
For the bit I can play it, it is great. Very responsive, and gets great tone
out of my bach.
Dr. Trumpet
wrote:
> I'm sorry for sounding so irritated in this response
>
> "Dr. Trumpet" <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:dr_trpt-spamfree-AF...@news.iquest.net...
> > Michael,
> >
> > Let me start by saying there is no perfect horn for any situation, only
> the
> > perfect player.
>
> Funny, are there any perfect players out there, I'd like to meet one. Each
> has their strengths and weaknesses. Is your name really "Dr. trumpet"( I
> get offended by people with egos) Thank you for taking me for an idiot.
You do have a problem, don't you? Nothing could be further from the truth, but
.......
Get offended with this: my name is Al Lilly. I can use any name I want, and am
fairly well known here. That you are offended is of little interest to me. I
was trying to help. Live and learn, eh?
>
> > Why? The Bach 37 is the de facto standard for trumpet. Whether or not it
> works
> > for you now, it worked well enough to get you into college and into the
> below
> > mentioned ensembles. Don't totally discount it just because it isn't the
> best
> > horn for you now. At one time, it may have been!
>
> It did not get me into college I was given it because *I* earned a
> scholarship playing.
Playing a trumpet, not a kazoo. Boy, you do have a chip on your shoulder.
> I started on a rented blessing, bought a rip off used callihcio that fell
> apart and spent highschool on a school owned holton collegiate horn which
> had seen its better days. I auditioned to my college on a borrowed bach that
> I had never played.
> My back is only 2 and a half years old. I works well for me, but with
> the overpowering breath support I do have from marching tuba for through
> high school, playing lead trombone, participating in marching bands for
> eight years, etc. I want something free blowing. Made with good
> craftmanship.
Then the Bach you own may not be the one. But, there are other Bachs out there
with those characteristics. 43 bell, XL bore, great trumpet. Large bore, 72
bell is also a great, open horn. The 37 is a middle of the road trumpet, not the
most open or the more free blowing.
>
>
> > I play a Bach 37 gold plated for all you
> > mention, and adjust my mouthpiece selection for the style and tone I need,
> > selecting the mouthpiece that helps me to most easily create the tone and
> > response I want for each particular style of music.
>
> Look a valuable comment, yet there's still a hint of "you don't have a clue,
> Michael".
Only if you read it there.....I didn't put it in there.
>
>
> The Gong sound mentioned is that of excessive vibrations from the valves
> that resonate like a Gong, and rattles that sometimes occurr when playing
> certain pitches.
Got it.....my misinterpretation of what you were saying. A horn that rattles
like you mention is a bad instrument, indeed!
>
>
> > > My plan is to learn what I can through asking others who play to the
> > > extant I do, and who have tried their fair share of horns. After hearing
> > > opinions, I am going to go on a few runs to music stores so I can try
> some
> > > horns out.
>
> > Most music stores will not carry most of the instruments you mention
> below.
>
> Am I not aware of this? Is this directed towards my question?
You stated you were going to "go on a few runs to music stores" to try these
horns. Where I live, there isn't a Blackburn within 100 miles, there are
probably less than 10 Monettes, no Wild Things, one Calicchio (new one) and most
of the others are not around here. And, before you claim I am in the sticks, I
live near Bloomington, IN.
> They do show up at conferences. And I am sure it is not impossible to find a
> place to try one out. And I am not limiting considerations to this list, it
> was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that I found
> on the web.
Maybe. ITG this summer is in Manchester, England. The National Trumpet
Conference is in March in Washington, DC. The Jazz conference is out west, I
think California, in January. Close to any of them?
>
> > > I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
> > > styles *apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor
> college
> > > student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn and I
> have
> > > gotten used to playing in all these situations.
> >
> > Nice but unrealistic. If you wish to play baroque music, a good picc is
> > required. If you want to do combo jazz, a flugel is an excellent second
> horn.
> > The least necesasary instrument you list is a C trumpet.
>
> You misunderstand that I was submiting that I know the need for the other
> types of horns, notice: " apart from"
Hmm, unclear to me.......I'm still not sure what your point is, but ......hey,
I'm still only trying to help.
>
> > > I don't want to hear the word Bach in any reply's, please. A good
> deal
> > > of convincing will need to be done for a Yamaha as well. And I am aware
> of
> > > the affect Mouthpiece selection has on any choice(give me some credit).
>
> > Then you should know that the mouthpiece can often alter the instrument
> far more
> > than the instrument itself. I would be willing to bet that you have
> ignore, or
> > at least minimized, the effect of the mouthpiece in an effort to find a
> better
> > instrument, which is fine. However, many other variables exist beside the
> horn.
>
> Did I come off this stupid?
You narrowed the problem solely to the horn, to my read. If that was my read,
and I got that as well from other replies, then yes, you did. Attack me for
your lack of clarity.....wow?
>
> > > Here's a list of top manufacturers I am aware of. Tell me of any other
> good
> > > manufacturers, and tell me what would be your dream horn. I don't expect
> to
> > > have the money to buy some of these horns, but still want opinions,
> please.
> > > I am particularly interested in flip oakes, edwards, taylor, and
> > > evolution.
> > >
> > > Kanstul:
> > > flip oakes wild thing
> >
> > Special order only.
>
> yeah.
>
> >
> > > edwards
> >
> > Most say no.
>
> No about what?
Fit, finish, sound. I have a friend who was sold on one for about two weeks.
She played it everywhere except in orchestra, and once she got there to play it,
realized it was not the horn. Lacked projection, made her work way too hard.
>
> >
> > > Generation X Bb(any opinions on vented valves?)
> > > Generation II Bb
> > > taylor
> >
> > Monette copies, but good ones.
>
> still not telling me much
Well, every horn does play different. If you have never played a Taylor, they
are open and heavy. Move a lot of air, make it move fast, and the Taylor
responds. The Monettes almost play themselves-ease of approach, really easy
tone production, big sound.
>
> >
> > > leblanc:
> > > Evolution
> >
> > find a local dealer who has one.
>
> I have played one both ev I and II, thank you.
At a local dealer? Where are you? There are none in Indiana with both here.
>
> >
> > > benge
> >
> > Conn Vintage One would be a far better choice, although finding one to
> play
> > seems to be a bit of a problem....they don't stay in stores long!
>
>
>
> > > calicchio
> >
> > See leblanc. I've only seen them in very limited quantities at the Mars
> stores,
> > and almost nowhere else. Great trumpets....if you can get them
>
> I know a dealer.
Then be sure to play the more open of the two, as there is a new model that is
based on a Bach 37. Chris recently changed many of the model numbers and
discontinued a number of models. Check them carefully. They are well made, but
played very tight (the models designed for orchestral/concert work). Not the
Calicchio I expected. The older lead models are more open and mght meet your
needs better. All are fine instruments.
>
> >
> > > blackburn
> >
> > Custom made.....2 year wait last time I talked with Cliff.
> >
> > > monette
> >
> > Custom made. 12-14 months wait on the web site; difference is that David
> has 6
> > guys working for him, while Cliff has himself, Bunny and Tina.
> >
> > > stomvi
> >
> > Not impressed with the ones I've played, but worth a look in the interest
> of
> > total coverage. Frank Pulcini sounded great on his at ITG 2000 in NYW
> with the
> > Epsilon Brass.
> >
> > > lawler
> >
> > Again, a custom horn, made to order, with a wait.
> >
> > Your list is heavily ladden with very limited production instruments, or
> custom
> > models that require an order, a substantial wait, and a lot of money.
>
> Again... qoute from above: "I am not limiting considerations to this list,
> it was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that I
> found on the web."
> I was hoping I could be enlighted with the names of other Manufacturers as
> well.
I believe I address this in the next paragraph with a couple solid suggestions.
>
> > Looking into a good Kanstul signature series might be a great idea, as
> well as
> > looking into the Vintage One from Conn. Maybe even a B & S, which while
> Bach
> > copies, frequently get rave reviews here. The selection is limited,
> especially
> > when on considers the advances in music technology. Seems as though Bachs
> run
> > as the king has driven a number of other manufacturers to create horns
> that
> > simply are not good, while others are custom makers for players who have
> the
> > capital and the desire to have a a truly custom instrument.
> >
>
> Finally, A Comment I can Appreciate, thank you.
> Sorry about my demeanor, giving the doctor some of his own medicine and
> all. Some of these comments were the ones I was hoping for. I am hurt that I
> wasn't taken seriously or given much credit, though.
I think your reply was weighted to much by giving the doctor his own medicine.
Unfortunately, you have alienated me and in the process made yourself look bad
by making unclear requests, then compounding them with insults.
>
> > Money may end up being the limiting factor. Rarely is quality cheap.
Perhaps you would be better served to do the leg work, play them all, and make
your own choice.
And, remember e-mail is a context-less medium. You add the context, not me.
I was trying to help. Sorry I tried.
Al Lilly
Calendar Editor
ITG
(My views are mine, and NOT ITG's).
Michael Willard
Still, My bach is newer than the nice bachs many people swear by, and many
people have been sharing their same opinion of the poor craftmanship used in
the recent production of bachs with me. I have seen old and new bachs, mine
is not the old quality bach, and I am not satisfied with it. I thought that
this problem would be understood, and that some alternative can be found.
Yes I over-reacted, sorry.
I am still interested in a horn other than a bach despite the case made
for it. I know the case, and had my bach been made better I may not be
complaining because I know how a decent bach can play.
This conn vintage one seems to be a safe alternative. but I may check
out the Connstellation as well, seeing as how it has a larger bore and
reversed lead - some things I think would suit me.
"David Griffin" <gri...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:E792EC093687012F.795D812C...@lp.airnews.net...
Dr. Trumpet
wrote:
> Thanks Eric, The Conn Vintage has been mentioned by a number of people and I
> think I will certainly check it out. I don't intend to flame you if I don't
> like it. I wasn't very receptive to the condescending tone some earlier
> messages used, and appreciate your opinion
Tone you implied, that I did not. Your mistake.
No one has mentioned any more information than I did, but you take their answers
with consideration, and flamed mine.....
Who has the condescending tone?
WoW!
AL
S Hager Jr.
It seems to me you might be asking the wrong folks the questions & a
custom horn builder is who you should be talking to. If you call Flip
Oakes - Dave Monette - Lawler & give them your posting they will build
you a horn. You are definite in what you want & that is what custom is
all about - isn't it? How much money do you have to spend on a horn? If
it is less than $5000 then Monette is out of the question for a new one
anyway & that is for the lightweight models. I own a Wild Thing & I love
it & it is everything that you describe wanting but since I'm not
playing in all the venues & bands that you are - your post suggest any
additional comments,thoughts & opinions from a guy like me wouldn't be
appreciated so I'll stop writing. BTW: A little less attitude will get
you a better response from rmmt!
Spencer Hager Jr.
Jim Donaldson
>> flip oakes wild thing
>> edwards
>> Generation II Bb
>> taylor
>> leblanc:
>> Evolution
>> benge
>> calicchio
>> blackburn
>> monette
>> stomvi
>> lawler
I guess my curiousity finally got to me. No Schilkes on even the try list? Many
who find the Wild Thing a bit much find the larger bore Schilkes (X3, X4, S22)
to be just the ticket, and you'll not find a better made instrument for the
money.
People who grow frustrated with Bachs often find Schilke the solution.
Jim Donaldson
Denver Colorado
JFDon...@aol.com
The Schilke Loyalist
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke
Michael Willard
Please note that I appologized at that beggining of my original message for
it sounding so irritated. I also realized the nature of responses such a
question might get, and I was not looking forward to them. I realive now,
that I should have just asked people what they the thought the best all
around horn is, in terms of styles, and playability in different settings.
My response to yours was meant to be have the same attitude as this
thread:(there was less content to comment on though.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<< Ok, big question here. One I will probably want to discuss thoroughly.
I play a Bach 37 >>
Easy answer-The horn in the hands of the most versatile trumpet player.
Wilmer
That horn in that pretty case makes not one sound.
...........................................
<< << How wise (*moan*) >>
............................................
How would you to have to explain the origins of Wilmer along with the Wise
part.
Otherwise.
Wilmer
.............................................
No offense, but I was expecting these types of comments, and I was not
looking forward to, or asking for that type of response. I understand the
horn is a standard professional model. My remark was in offense to the fact
your remark assumes that I am not aware that it takes a versatile player to
have a versatile trumpet. I don't want to get into any arguments with Bach
Loyalists. But, I also don't see value in idolizing that model as the only
way to go. I agree it is a great horn, and maybe I'll stick to it. I
certainly have gotten a lot out of mine, but I am not satisfied with it,
and have played better.
...............................................................
No offense taken.
The best horn I ever played was a Besson that was put together by Smith,of
Smith-Watkins fame.
It was a protype.
Wilmer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thread.( note the apology for my over reaction.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't read any condescending tone from any of the posts which tried
to answer your question. Just because you wanted to hear that you should
trash your Bach and didn't get that answer, doesn't make a response
condescending. I think you over reacted when you didn't get your way.
Is it the name "Michael" (as in Schmidtt and Bookman) that makes one so
testy?
Davis Griffin
I expected people to respond negative to the Idea of trashing my bach.
Still, My bach is newer than the nice bachs many people swear by, and many
people have been sharing their same opinion of the poor craftmanship used in
the recent production of bachs with me. I have seen old and new bachs, mine
is not the old quality bach, and I am not satisfied with it. I thought that
this problem would be understood, and that some alternative can be found.
*Yes I over-reacted, sorry.*
I am still interested in a horn other than a bach despite the case made
for it. I know the case, and had my bach been made better I may not be
complaining because I know how a decent bach can play.
This conn vintage one seems to be a safe alternative. but I may check
out the Connstellation as well, seeing as how it has a larger bore and
reversed lead - some things I think might suit me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I particularly appreciate simple responses of Franklin, Michael Droste,
SiegTrpt, Rhocken, Mark Bradley, Spencer Hager Jr.,Eric Bolvin, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
In article <9si87p$8sb$1...@plonk.apk.net>, "Michael Willard"
<wil...@cannet.com>
wrote:
> Thanks Eric, The Conn Vintage has been mentioned by a number of people and
I
> think I will certainly check it out. I don't intend to flame you if I
don't
> like it. I wasn't very receptive to the condescending tone some earlier
> messages used, and appreciate your opinion
Tone you implied, that I did not. Your mistake.
No one has mentioned any more information than I did, but you take their
answers
with consideration, and flamed mine.....
Who has the condescending tone?
WoW!
AL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Your response has not gone without consideration. We obviously both have
different opinons of who has the condescending tone. Again note the first
line of my original response
> > I'm sorry for sounding so irritated in this response
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"SiegTrmpt" <sieg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011109230634...@mb-mn.aol.com...
> >my Bach is junk. It's a pain to fight with in the upper
> >> register,
> >> > though the tone is great for lead, it doesn't slot well.
> Bach designed a wider pitch range into them to aid in flexibility. That's
the
> way they are supposed to be. Too much slotting is not necessarily a
positive
> trait in trumpets. I guess it's a matter of preference
Do you mean that excess of slotting makes flexiblity more difficulty to
achieve?
I can see how that may be true.
The matter of prefference would probably be whether the player desired
slotting over flexibility. I would have to try out a horn that slotted well,
or ask someone who has to see whether it hurts or helps.
I'll have to find out.
I know that a larger diameter and sharper rim edge on the mouthpiece can
help flexibility as well, but a compromise must be met. Too sharp of a rim
and too big of a mouthpiece doesn't lend to extended hours of playing time.
This could hurt during concerts considerably. I am still in the process of
building face for larger mouthpieces. Not having private instruction till
college, I only played 7c's, when I got my bach I got it with a 5c, and then
bought the 3c that I have been on for about two years. I use it for
everything right now.
I have a bach 1-1/2c I can play comfortably, and think I will work it up
before I try to settle into one I recently bought for kicks, a CKB 1BW. WOW.
For the bit I can play it, it is great. Very responsive, and gets great tone
out of my bach.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This type of oppinion is another I value.
------------------------------------------------------
> > I'm sorry for sounding so irritated in this response
> > > Let me start by saying there is no perfect horn for any situation,
only the perfect player.
Forgive me if I do not agree with this
<< Each has their strengths and weaknesses.>>
Is your name really "Dr. trumpet"
> Get offended with this: my name is Al Lilly. I can use any name I want,
and am
> fairly well known here. That you are offended is of little interest to
me. I
> was trying to help. Live and learn, eh?
.................................................
My name is Michael, not mr.trumpet.
....................................................
> > > Why? The Bach 37 is the de facto standard for trumpet. Whether or
not it
> > works
> > > for you now, it worked well enough to get you into college and into
the
> > below
> > > mentioned ensembles. Don't totally discount it just because it isn't
the
> > best
> > > horn for you now. At one time, it may have been!
> >
> > It did not get me into college I was given it because *I* earned a
> > scholarship playing.
>
> Playing a trumpet, not a kazoo. ((((( <<--- what was that about ?????)))))
Boy, you do have a chip on your shoulder.
> > I started on a rented blessing, bought a rip off used callihcio that
fell
> > apart and spent highschool on a school owned holton collegiate horn
which
> > had seen its better days. I auditioned to my college on a borrowed bach
that
> > I had never played.
> > My back is only 2 and a half years old. I works well for me, but
with
> > the overpowering breath support I do have from marching tuba for through
> > high school, playing lead trombone, participating in marching bands for
> > eight years, etc. I want something free blowing. Made with good
> > craftmanship.
> Then the Bach you own may not be the one. But, there are other Bachs out
there
> with those characteristics. 43 bell, XL bore, great trumpet. Large bore,
72
> bell is also a great, open horn. The 37 is a middle of the road trumpet,
not the
> most open or the more free blowing.
............................................................
Yes there are other models of bach that may work if I can find one that is
made well. You will have to accept that my response here has nothing to do
with you personally. I am personally disapointed with Bach manufacturing,
and I don't want to deal with then anymore unless I am really won over. Most
artist will agree that they learn what they can from others and improv upon
that to create something better, and I know that there are manufactures who
have done the like whether they could be called "copies" or not.
............................................................
> > > I play a Bach 37 gold plated for all you
> > > mention,
............................................
That sounded condescending.
............................................
and adjust my mouthpiece selection for the style and tone I need,
> > > selecting the mouthpiece that helps me to most easily create the tone
and
> > > response I want for each particular style of music.
> >
> > Look a valuable comment, yet there's still a hint of "you don't have a
clue,
> > Michael".
>
> Only if you read it there.....I didn't put it in there.
.........................................
I don't play a gold plate Bach. I didn't put that comment their either.
..........................................
> > The Gong sound mentioned is that of excessive vibrations from the valves
> > that resonate like a Gong, and rattles that sometimes occurr when
playing
> > certain pitches.
> Got it.....my misinterpretation of what you were saying. A horn that
rattles
> like you mention is a bad instrument, indeed!
............................................................................
.....
> > > > My plan is to learn what I can through asking others who play to
the
> > > > extant I do, and who have tried their fair share of horns. After
hearing
> > > > opinions, I am going to go on a few runs to music stores so I can
try
> > some
> > > > horns out.
> >
> > > Most music stores will not carry most of the instruments you mention
> > below.
> >
> > Am I not aware of this? Is this directed towards my question?
......................................................................
yes, I am sorry for this attitude, as stated before.
......................................................................
> You stated you were going to "go on a few runs to music stores" to try
these
> horns. Where I live, there isn't a Blackburn within 100 miles, there are
> probably less than 10 Monettes, no Wild Things, one Calicchio (new one)
and most
> of the others are not around here. And, before you claim I am in the
sticks, I
> live near Bloomington, IN.
>
> > They do show up at conferences. And I am sure it is not impossible to
find a
> > place to try one out. And I am not limiting considerations to this list,
it
> > was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that I
found
> > on the web.
>
> Maybe. ITG this summer is in Manchester, England. The National Trumpet
> Conference is in March in Washington, DC. The Jazz conference is out
west, I
> think California, in January. Close to any of them?
.................................
Good until the "Close to any of them?" comment. Why is that necessary.
..................................................
> > > > I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
> > > > styles *apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor
> > college
> > > > student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn
and I
> > have
> > > > gotten used to playing in all these situations.
> > > Nice but unrealistic. If you wish to play baroque music, a good picc
is
> > > required. If you want to do combo jazz, a flugel is an excellent
second
> > horn.
> > > The least necesasary instrument you list is a C trumpet.
> > You misunderstand that I was submiting that I know the need for the
other
> > types of horns, notice: " apart from"
>
> Hmm, unclear to me.......I'm still not sure what your point is, but
......hey,
> I'm still only trying to help.
.....................................
I can't figure out why you were confused here. I submitted that I am aware
of the need for flugel, c trumpet, pic, etc. But it seemed that you
misunderstood that wasn't by the "Nice but unrealistic" comment.
...........................................................
...............................................
Please note this quote from above,"And I am aware of the affect Mouthpiece
selection has on any choice(give me some credit)."
............................................................................
....
..................................
At a conference in D.C.
..................................
............................................................................
.....
Here, again I am sorry if I was offended by the comment about the content of
my list, but I stated clearly above in my original post, and noted again
below that I was aware of this.
.....................
> > Again... qoute from above: "I am not limiting considerations to this
list,
> > it was just a starter list put together from browsing endorsements that
I
> > found on the web."
> > I was hoping I could be enlighted with the names of other Manufacturers
as
> > well.
.........................................
> I believe I address this in the next paragraph with a couple solid
suggestions.
Yes, note my appreciation at the end of your next paragraph.
.........................................
> >
> > > Looking into a good Kanstul signature series might be a great idea, as
> > well as
> > > looking into the Vintage One from Conn. Maybe even a B & S, which
while
> > Bach
> > > copies, frequently get rave reviews here. The selection is limited,
> > especially
> > > when on considers the advances in music technology. Seems as though
Bachs
> > run
> > > as the king has driven a number of other manufacturers to create horns
> > that
> > > simply are not good, while others are custom makers for players who
have
> > the
> > > capital and the desire to have a a truly custom instrument.
> > >
> >
> > *Finally, A Comment I can Appreciate, thank you.*
>
> > Sorry about my demeanor, giving the doctor some of his own medicine
and
> > all. Some of these comments were the ones I was hoping for. I am hurt
that I
> > wasn't taken seriously or given much credit, though.
............................................................................
....
> I think your reply was weighted to much by giving the doctor his own
medicine.
> Unfortunately, you have alienated me and in the process made yourself look
bad
> by making unclear requests, then compounding them with insults.
.................................................................
Please read the Subject line "impossible question"
.................................................................
> >
> > > Money may end up being the limiting factor. Rarely is quality cheap.
>
> Perhaps you would be better served to do the leg work, play them all, and
make
> your own choice.
>
> And, remember e-mail is a context-less medium. You add the context, not
me.
>
> I was trying to help. Sorry I tried.
....................................................................
Again.... Sorry for "flaming". when I posted this message I did not want to
be treated like I did not know what I am talking about, and I did take
offense by your response because it made me feel you were making assumptions
to my knowledge. I thought my post would come across as being a request for
input about an instrument that would be most valuable to a performer in the
greatest variety of playing environments. I included extra info, that I
thought would make it more clear what I meant, and included a list of
manufacturers that had been recomended.
Noting what instruments I have played on, you may have realized that I
intend to get the most I can out of any horn and I am starting the process
of a very careful selction of a new instrument, because I don't intend to
buy another one for a long time. I can't afford to buy two decent horns
because they only work wells in certain settings. I don't even like the Idea
of having two trumpets for different reasons
I do intend to get the most reasonable/valuable option, and realize the
expense. I also plan to take my time deciding because I know I can get more
out of what I have. Still, i have decided that I need a different horn, and
need help selecting a new one. Please accept at least that.
Michael
....................................................................
Michael Willard
you.
I will look the models up.
Dr. Trumpet
wrote:
> > Maybe. ITG this summer is in Manchester, England. The National Trumpet
> > Conference is in March in Washington, DC. The Jazz conference is out
> west, I
> > think California, in January. Close to any of them?
> .................................
>
> Good until the "Close to any of them?" comment. Why is that necessary.
Serious question. IF you are close, then there is an excellent opportunity to
try them with minimal travel. Rayburn's has an excellent display at NTC, and IT
is loaded with great displays. Blackburn is always at both. The Jazz Educators
also have an excellent display. It was NOT meant to be rude.
>
> ..................................................
> > > > > I don't like the idea of having different horns for different
> > > > > styles *apart from a flugel, a picolo, c trumpet, etc. Being a poor
> > > college
> > > > > student/musician I don't have the money. The Bach is my only horn
> and I
> > > have
> > > > > gotten used to playing in all these situations.
> > > > Nice but unrealistic. If you wish to play baroque music, a good picc
> is
> > > > required. If you want to do combo jazz, a flugel is an excellent
> second
> > > horn.
> > > > The least necesasary instrument you list is a C trumpet.
> > > You misunderstand that I was submiting that I know the need for the
> other
> > > types of horns, notice: " apart from"
> >
> > Hmm, unclear to me.......I'm still not sure what your point is, but
> ......hey,
> > I'm still only trying to help.
> .....................................
>
> I can't figure out why you were confused here. I submitted that I am aware
> of the need for flugel, c trumpet, pic, etc. But it seemed that you
> misunderstood that wasn't by the "Nice but unrealistic" comment.
Or it wasn't clear. Either way, I think I follow now. You know you need other
horns, but the Bb is what you can afford right now, correct?
No hard feelings here, not a one. I attribute it to the medium (e-mail) and
realize that is real life, none of this would happen in person!
AL
DHoff56012
>the
>easiest.
To me, this is the whole enchilada.
You have to have your sound, your concept, and then you look for the horn that
will produce that sound with the least adjustment. It could be any horn, and
it's going to be different for each player.
When I was on the road, my roommate and I used to go to music stores and play
trumpets. We are very different players, with different sounds and different
things we need in a trumpet. But the amazing thing is within a couple of
minutes of playing an unfamiliar horn, I sounded like me and he sounded like
him. To me this proves that if you have a strong concept of sound, you can
product that on any instrument, within reason. That's where the ease of
getting your sound comes in. The horn that allows you to do this the most
efficiently is the best horn for you. There is no way anyone can say "Bachs
are the best" or any other brand.
In that way Wilmer was right in the first response to your question, that it
isn't the horn at all. And Al was right in his response that I quoted at the
beginning of this post.
Hmmmm, interesting... Wilmer is a great player, and he says this. Al is a
frequent poster on this list, and his posts are always intelligent and
thoughtful and precise. And helpful. Seems like you could learn a little
something from some folks that have been around for a while, and instead of
referring to them as "egotists",maybe you could just realize that they KNOW
stuff. It happens after you've been playing a trumpet for a few years, you
know..
Dave Lee
> I attribute it to the medium (e-mail) and
>realize that if real life, none of this would happen in person!
This is a little off topic, but this is an observation of mine too. ( and I
know we're not alone) I have been involved in a couple little wars in my time
on usenet ( mostly on groups other than this one), and I firmly believe many
were the cause of misunderstanding, due to the medium. A statement made with
innocent intent takes on a malevolent charecter when read the wrong way. I know
I've certainly reacted to some posts inapproprately because of it, and some of
my posts have caused others to do the same.
Now I TRY to just take a deep breath and shake my head, but just yesterday I
was again tangled up in an exchange. Oh well, such is usenet I guess.
DISCLAIMER: The above really has nothing to do with the thread, I have no
opinion on any content of this thread. This statement is merely my thoughts on
the medium and misunderstandings wherever they occur.......
DHoff56012
>messages used, and appreciate your opinion
Michael, you are a kid with an attitude. If you had any idea of the resources
you have here, you wouldn't be alienating the best folks on the list. I have
not seen the "condescending tone" that you refer to, all I have seen is an
effort to help you. I don't think you can be helped at this point. I think
you are just going to have to make a lot of mistakes. So good luck, you'll
need it. (was that condescending enough for you?)
SiegTrmpt
>>perfect player. I select a trumpet because it plays the way I want to sound
>>the
>>easiest.
>
>To me, this is the whole enchilada.
>
Yes sir! Instruments don't make muscial phrases or play with a nice sound. They
help or, at the very least don't hurt, but we do the music.
SiegTrmpt
>
>> I attribute it to the medium (e-mail) and
>>realize that if real life, none of this would happen in person!
>This is a little off topic, but this is an observation of mine too.
I agree that we can read in negative or positive tone to messages that are just
simple comments. A good example are friends that call each other *&$%&#@$ (no
particular meaning intended) in a friendly way. If you read the transcript
you'd think they hated each other.
SiegTrmpt
>the
>> way they are supposed to be. Too much slotting is not necessarily a
>positive
>> trait in trumpets. I guess it's a matter of preference
>Do you mean that excess of slotting makes flexiblity more difficulty to
>achieve?
I'm not a designer or an engineer but I'm reading into several articles Vincent
Bach wrote on trumpet design. Once he found the ideal tubing lengths for the
valve tubes he added a little length so the player would have flexiblility and
be able to adjust the pitch to what is being played at the time. We're not
always at A- 440 throughout a piece at any given time. I suspect some
instruments that "slot well" may lose some of the pitch flexibility and end up
being stuck in the same pitch groove when the rest of the group has changed.
Comments from others? Bill
Michael Willard
do agree with the rest. I am glad to have received the tremendous amount of
input from this news group that I have, and let many know. The simplest
correct answer to my question is Al's " I select a trumpet because it plays
the way I want to sound the easiest." My question is still geared towards a
trumpet that will suit me best, and I am asking for help on this difficult
problem. I included information on my ability and some of my problems to see
if someone might be able to point me towards something.
I am glad they have.
I was not aware of The Conn Vintage One, and left out the Idea of
checking out certain schilke's go as well. I am still curious about a
leblanc ev, and other horns mentioned.
I am trying to operate on the assumption that people will share their
experiences and preferences with me.
Finally, don't get me wrong, but I am trying very hard to be as
versatile as I can by experience playing, performing, and by studying
different styles. I could be doing the same stuff with the horn I used in
high school except the school owned it and, the valves had problem. That
does not change my displeasure with my Bach.
If you'll notice Dave Lee and SiegTrpt's recent post, I hope you can
understand I was mistaken by reading a negative tone in Al's post and
overreacted.
"DHoff56012" <dhoff...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011110141818...@mb-md.aol.com...
> >Let me start by saying there is no perfect horn for any situation, only
the
> >perfect player. >
Michael Willard
Here. I will paste it:
I still stand by my statement as there being no "perfect player", but I
do agree with the rest. I am glad to have received the tremendous amount of
input from this news group that I have, and let many know. The simplest
correct answer to my question is Al's " I select a trumpet because it plays
the way I want to sound the easiest." My question is still geared towards a
trumpet that will suit me best, and I am asking for help on this difficult
problem. I included information on my ability and some of my problems to see
if someone might be able to point me towards something.
I am glad they have.
I was not aware of The Conn Vintage One, and left out the Idea of
checking out certain schilke's go as well. I am still curious about a
leblanc ev, and other horns mentioned.
I am trying to operate on the assumption that people will share their
experiences and preferences with me.
Finally, don't get me wrong, but I am trying very hard to be as
versatile as I can by experience playing, performing, and by studying
different styles. I could be doing the same stuff with the horn I used in
high school except the school owned it and, the valves had problem. That
does not change my displeasure with my Bach.
If you'll notice Dave Lee and SiegTrpt's recent post, I hope you can
understand I was mistaken by reading a negative tone in Al's post and
overreacted.
> Michael, you are a kid with an attitude. If you had any idea of the
resources
> you have here, you wouldn't be alienating the best folks on the list. I
have
> not seen the "condescending tone" that you refer to, all I have seen is an
> effort to help you. I don't think you can be helped at this point. I
think
> you are just going to have to make a lot of mistakes.
> So good luck, you'll
> need it. (was that condescending enough for you?)
>
> David
> http://www.mp3.com/davidhoffman
Yes, I realize I have a problem with this. I tend to force myself to find
out about things on my own the hard way. And it makes things more difficult.
Sometimes I am glad I do, other times I am not. I haven't found out in this
situation yet. I don't like to hear some one tell me that I shouldn't be
trying so hard, though. I Al's response I was offended by how bleak he made
getting the opportunity to try horns out, and how bleak he referred to the
chance of affording and or getting one.
I had a similar situation with a professor who told me that I "cannot"
double major by getting a B.A. in music, and a B.S. in music education. The
way I am I had to prove to her I could do it. But, it is my decision whether
I want to. Why hold someone back like that anyway? I guess I fight more when
that happens.
Don't shoot me for not being a gifted communicator. I know I have
this problem. And even my communcations and composition grades reflect that
in my report cards. I have not had many good examples to learn from
regarding this trait. Still, I know personally that I am trying hard, and I
have progressed. Dragging out these questions so I feel I have enough
understanding, has helped me.
William Graham
e-mail, you can consider your answer for a little while
before you post it. Even with e-mail, I get into trouble by
answering some posts too quickly. It's a good idea to let
your answer stew for an hour or so (or a day or so) before
you send it off into cyberspace....Once gone, it can never
be recalled.....
SiegTrmpt <sieg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011110151527...@mb-cs.aol.com...
William Graham
pitch, you're pretty well stuck with a piano. - A little
off subject, but someone in this thread mentioned something
called "vented valves". I don't know what these are. Can
anyone explain this to me?
SiegTrmpt <sieg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011110152607...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Michael Willard
Vented valves. I don't know the details, but they may be on the web site. If
i recall correctly, they had to do with getting the valves to move faster.
I believe Conn advertises some type of technology it uses on its valves
as well. MVW or something.
"William Graham" <we...@home.com> wrote in message
news:NniH7.11736$XJ4.8...@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com...
DHoff56012
>this problem. And even my communcations and composition grades reflect that
>in my report cards. I have not had many good examples to learn from
>regarding this trait. Still, I know personally that I am trying hard, and I
>have progressed. Dragging out these questions so I feel I have enough
>understanding, has helped me.
>
Fair enough. Thanks for having the guts to admit a deficiency. We all have
them. Mine are numerous.
Michael Willard
"Vented valves are an option on all valve sets. Vented pistons create an
effortless approach to using the first and third valve slides. When pistons
are vented, the first and third slides move freely whether the pistons are
in the up or down position. Vented valves seal as normally as standard
valves and possess the same playing characteristics as a standard valve set.
Vented valves must be requested at the time the order is placed."
and a qoute about the MVW-Modular Valve Weight
"patented Modular Valve Weight (MVW) System provides flexibilty in
response."
I'm still looking for more on the MVW.........
"Michael Willard" <wil...@cannet.com> wrote in message
news:9skcou$8s6$1...@plonk.apk.net...
Michael Willard
"SiegTrmpt" <sieg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011110152607...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Michael Manthey
!00% correct: 1) That you are going to sound like you regardless of
which trumpet you pick up, & 2) the "perfect horn" if there is such a
thing ( better term would be "best compromise" ) is the one that is
easiest for you to get your desired results on.
I, just in the last few days, had a chance to play on two of the Conn
V1's. Great horns. A versatile instrument and no problems with
intonation, note slotting, & it was consistent in all registers &
volumes.
I'd also recommend trying the Scodwell trumpet ( hand made by Tony
Scodwell in Las Vegas ) I believe Rayburn music in Boston handles them.
I have two of them & highly recommend it as a great, easy playing, good
all around trumpet. --- To put this into perspective, I've had 3 Bachs,
2 Schilkes, and a very good Calicchio. I've sold all my other horns
over time, and now have only the Scodwells.
It might be well worth your while, to take a trip to a well stocked
music store, and take a person with you, who's ears you trust. Spend a
day or two playing everything you can get your hands on. Then take your
favorite pick back to your playing situation. See if it works for you
there too, away from the store.
Good luck
~iii<0
Jim Donaldson
>
>"patented Modular Valve Weight (MVW) System provides
>flexibilty in response."
>
>I'm still looking for more on the MVW.....
UMI has this bottom valve cap design where you can add a series of small
weights to get the heavy valve cap effect you like the best. Unlike the Curry
CCCaps or Milashius heavy caps, where it is all or nothing.
Not exactly sliced bread, but an interesting thought.
Michael Willard
Brasswind store sometime soon. I didn't want to waste a lot of time there
seeing as how I live a good distance away.
This also gave me the Idea for an easier question to post. "who knows of any
really well stocked music stores?"
"Michael Manthey" <slip...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:519-3BE...@storefull-168.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
William Graham
> her is a copy&paste from the site
>
> "Vented valves are an option on all valve sets. Vented
pistons create an
> effortless approach to using the first and third valve
slides. When pistons
> are vented, the first and third slides move freely whether
the pistons are
This says a lot about what they must do. If the slides move
freely when the valves are in the up position, then the
slides must be vented to the outside air, or there must be
an opening from the slide to the bottom of the piston when
the valves aren't being operated. The only advantage I can
think of to this is that you could begin moving the slide
into the correct position for best pitch before you actually
play the note. This might make your ability to valve the
horn a little faster, and therefore play a little faster. I
can sort of visualize how they probably do it, but I would
like to see one of them, and will, as soon as I get the
chance....
David Griffin
the valve. I have a Bach C with the third valve vented. Allows the use
of the slide without depressing the valve. I guess a crude example would
be if one had a hole in the inner ear that allowed air to pass through
easily. Could take off and land in an airplane without pressure changes.
:-)
But it really works on a trumpet. No problems unless there is no slide
stop. When the trumpet is put on a stand, there is no air pressure to
hold it in.
David
Michael Willard
> Or it wasn't clear. Either way, I think I follow now. You know you need
other
> horns, but the Bb is what you can afford right now, correct?
Yes, that's pretty much what I meant.
Dr. Trumpet
wrote:
> I Al's response I was offended by how bleak he made
> getting the opportunity to try horns out, and how bleak he referred to the
> chance of affording and or getting one.
Finding them, yes. I have trouble finding good trumpet to find. Affording them
was your statement. If one states that he cannot afford several horns, and
wants one that works well, I read that he is on a budget, and recommending a
$6500 Monette trumpet is a waste of time. Looking at your statement like that,
to me it is crystal clear that someone on a budget might not appreciate
recommendations for horns that cost thousands of dollars beyond what they
reasonably can spend. Sorry for assuming that they might be out of your budget,
but it you don't want money discussed, don't bring it up in your posts.
>
> I had a similar situation with a professor who told me that I "cannot"
> double major by getting a B.A. in music, and a B.S. in music education. The
> way I am I had to prove to her I could do it. But, it is my decision whether
> I want to. Why hold someone back like that anyway? I guess I fight more when
> that happens.
No one here has held you back, except you. You chose to read into things
statements that aren't there. You chose to post what you did, then become
offended when people replied to it. The first day I joined a newsgroup (not
this one), someone sent a note to me that said, "Remember, no one asked you
here, no one cares if you are here, and no one will be sorry if you leave.
Consider that when you post here." I was furious, devasted, and wanted to fire
off a flame right then. But, the I realized he was right. Now, consider also
that most of the parties in this NG, including me, do not subscribe to the
above, unless of course you push us to that point.
Your continued citations of things in my note that made you feel offended
clearly were not read that way by the rest of the group, as no one here has
posted in support. And, as I told you, it was not the case. You have put the
negative context into it. You can chose to let it die, or you can continue to
rehash it and lose any help I would offer.
Advice in a free forum is worth what you pay for it.
AL
FUNG Kai Man Kenneth
have seen several. They drill a small hole on the valve that meet the
slide when the valve is up. This way you can extend the slide whenever
you want, easier movement all the time and no "pop". However, for our
instrument, it may mean that the slides can move easier by itself and
they can take a free dive onto the ground after you have lost the
retainer nuts....
John Kool
the bottom of the piston and another on top of the valve. On most trumpets
you cannot see the hole in the top because it is in the spring compartment.
this means less air is displaced when the valve moves up and down.
Most horns do not have "vented" valves. Ever have a super fast 3rd valve
slide and tight compression. Pull the slide out a little ways without
depressing the corresponding valve and the valve will "suck it back into
place". or worse....when aimlessly fingering your valves while at the
typical "concert attention" position, with your bell on your thigh and the
mouthpiece pointing at the sky, your 3rd valve slide will fall when you
depress the valve....but not if the valve is in the up position.
Vented valves have a small hole drilled in the side of the piston so that
when the valve slide is moved without moving the valve, there is no
compression or suction. Air is moved from the slide tube through the hole
in the side of the valve through the holes in the top and bottom of the
valve. This means you can more easily position the 3rd valve slide before
you need it. If you do so, you will also not get the "pop" of air rushing
to fill the slide once the valve is depressed.
The Modular Valve Weight system is a series of weighted bottom valve caps.
Others here have noticed that their horn vibrates in their hands, at least
on certain notes. These heavy caps mess with the way the horn vibrates in
your hands, either increasing or diminishing it, depending on the placement
of the weights. Many people feel this affects projection/slotting/ease of
blow. I used to pooh-pooh the idea until I played around with it. It
certainly does affect the feel, but like so many modifications, I doubt it
is something your audience will notice. Still, if it makes you feel better
about your playing, it has value.
Pops
You said you went to several sites and saw endorsements for their
instruments. So you more than likely saw mine. If not here it is
http://www.BbTrumpet.com/articles/67.html This is for the Wild Thing.
I do however want to make a few other comments.
Wilmer is well know for saying that it is the player not the horn. (I'm
not picking on you. ) This is TRUE if the horn is in decent playing
order.
I get to play a great many horns and I do run across some problems.
There are music stores that will attempt to sell ANYTHING. I was
recently at a Mars store that had a new pro horn on the wall. I asked to
play it and after 1 note started pulling slides to look at the valve
alignment. One valve was almost 1/4 of an inch off. I showed this to the
store manager who said. Oh and then put it back on the wall for some
poor sucker to buy 'as is'.
I also see this a lot with mail order horns. Yes you get to send them
back but they WILL finally find someone who will unknowingly buy it.
I've handed student model horns to some of these people to play during
their lessons and suddenly they played much better. Sometimes their
entire reason for flying in to see me was fixed. (Their horn sucked.)
I know that some models are 40% less in mailorder but you have to check
it out before you buy it.
Next with custom horns you sometimes have to get them adjusted. My
Calicchio (made by Dom 25+ years ago) had to be sent back. I wanted it
to blow more open. He adjusted it and I was happy.
You asked us for our opinion but really that is not very useful. We
don't know what kind of blow you like and you don't know if the person
giving an opinion likes a tight or open blow.
There are great horns that I HATE but I can see that they are very well
made and someone might love them.
There is even one that I can't evaluate because you HAVE to play their
mouthpiece and they don't make a mouthpiece I like yet. So to be fair
about that horn I would need to invest some time and money into letting
them make a custom mpc similar to my Curry and then I could play his
horns.
So the bottom line is you can ask us what we like. Well my favorite is
the Wild Thing. I could get any horn I want and I've been offered free
horns to switch. But I want to play Flips' Wild Thing.
You really have to hunt different makes down and play them. That is the
only way you will know what is best for you.
Information about my trumpet & embouchure books.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com
Best wishes
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
Michael Willard
Yes, I did see your endorsement both on Flip's sight, and on your web
site. I have realized I should have asked what people like to play on the
most and why, rather than looking for a single most versatile model.
When buying my Bach, the dealer tried to pass a specific one with a
defect off to me twice, unfortunately there were some defects on the horn I
did buy that I didn't know to look for at the time. I also hadn't known alot
about the making of a horn. I have learned a lot since.
I guess I am looking for advice on the easiest way to get a horn that I
am happy with because I am aware of how much effort and expense people put
into finding one. So, I was hoping that this newsgroup would save me a lot
of time and effort. I do plan on hunting carefully, too.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to get a horn that needs professional
tweaking
like custom mpcs to fix mouthpiece gap, or attention to valve alignment,
brace
placement, etc. I am realizing that even with a custom horn this will
probably
be necessary, though.
Thank you for your comments. They were reinforcing about the certain
variabilty
in finding the right horn. I am still interested in checking out a Wild
Thing.
Thanks,
Michael
S Hager Jr.
This is one of 'THE' characteristic that I have grown to love in my Wild
Thing - having a little more room on the horn to move around on. The
horn slots so tight & yet there is also a trough that surrounds each
slot that allows me to slide the note wherever I want. When you read
about how the Wild Thing takes a little time to get used to that is one
of the characteristics that are different than any other horn that I've
played that needs adjusting to. When I do a gliss it just takes the
slightest imput & off on the slide I go & when I want the slide to stop
on a note bang it is in the slot tight & hard. Drops right in with
almost no effort! I'm not sure if the design variable you describe below
is being employed to yield this characteristic but I sure know what you
are talking about when you get into flexiblity & pitch width! Give me
another 10 years & I'm sure I will really be able to put this attribute
in my Wild Thing to good use!!!!! No kidding - I'm serious! It is an
awesome thing when the horn is out of your way as far as using as some
kind of excuse for sounding bad & the only reason you can say that
something you have played sounds bad is because "I screwed up" - no horn
excuse.
Spencer