HEAVY vs LIGHT
Gary
light weight?
Gary
The clock is running .......
DHoff56012
>light weight?
Ok, I will go out on a limb and maybe get a discussion going here. In my
opinion (for what it's worth) is that weight of a trumpet makes little
difference, except the extra fatigue involved it hauling it to the gig.
The reason I say this is that I have several horns of all different weights,
and the sound and the response seem to be more dependent on bore size, quality
of design, mouthpiece combination, lead pipes, bell size, valve alignments,
just a lot of factors.
The lightest horn I have (a 1940 Bach Strad) responds the best for me, an has
the best sound, possibly because of it's large bore and the fact that Bach made
great horns back then. And it's very light, maybe as light as one of the
lightweight Shilkes or Yamahas. Go figure.
Same thing goes for extra mass mouthpieces, heavy valve caps and anything else
you can think of. I'm sure there are those of you who disagree. But how can
we really tell. There are so many other factors involved. Even if we compared
2 horns that were exactly the same except for mass, there are no way 2 horns
are going to be exactly the same anyway. I've gone into a store and played 4
or 5 trumpets of the same model, manufactured very close to each other, and
each one has played quite differently.
Anyway, what do the rest of you trumpetheads thing on this?
Jim Donaldson
with some heavy weight valve caps on my Schilke B1. The effect was immediate
and undeniable. The sound had more of a core and the pitches slotted more
rigidly, however, the response was dulled (like driving with snow tires on the
open road), the sound lost its brilliancy, and articulation took more effort.
The experiment was short lived as I valued the things I lost more than the
things I gained.
I have been pleased with somewhat heavier Monette mouthpieces, especially the
tonal quality and projection, but for me they require some additional effort in
articulation, which is particularly noticeable when fatigue starts to show. But
I can live with it given the other things I value.
I've also tried Bach Megatone mouthpieces and hated them. They look rather like
Monettes superficially, but played nothing like them. The sound was harsh and
strident, the intonation was goofy, and it took a lot of effort to get notes
started. Maybe I just had a bad one....
Some folks find that one heavy valve cap on the third valve represents a good
compromise, a bit of the advantage with only enough of the disadvantages that
one can stand it.
It is a funny business, but real enough.
Jim Donaldson
Denver Colorado
JFDon...@aol.com
The Schilke Loyalist
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke
SKEW999
sound, although they don't effect it as much as the leadpipe or bore does.
A Lt bell/horn will seem brighter and more lively. A heavy bell/horn will seem
darker and thicker, and have more core to the sound.
This is the reason why almost all lead players play Lt or standard weight
bell/horns and NOT heavy bell/horns.
As for + and -'s, Lt horns usually are easier to play in the upper register,
cut better, take less energy and air to play, and u often see that your
endurance is better.
Darker horns can handle louder volumes and won't "crack," if u want a darker
sound it can easily achieved to a degree by buying a Heavy horn, and they often
sound fuller in the extreme LOWER register.
You can get some more info on specific Bach models by going to my page.
Later
Joe
The Bach Loyalist
www.thebachloyalist.freeservers.com
Dr. Trumpet
jfdon...@aol.comnospam (Jim Donaldson) wrote:
> Added mass has its effect and most folks can perceive it. I once
> experimented
> with some heavy weight valve caps on my Schilke B1. The effect was
> immediate
> and undeniable. The sound had more of a core and the pitches slotted more
> rigidly, however, the response was dulled (like driving with snow tires on
> the
> open road), the sound lost its brilliancy, and articulation took more
> effort.
> The experiment was short lived as I valued the things I lost more than the
> things I gained.
>
Jim's findings are those of David Monette and many, many others. The mass of
the bottom cap must relate to the weight and mass of the entire trumpet.
Monette puts different weight and size caps on his horns, dependent upon the
weight of the horn and the braces. I have some CCaps for a Bach trumpet, but
they are too heavy for the Bach trumpet. Placing them on another, heavier Bach
made little difference. The mass of the CCap is simply too much for the horn,
especially for me. Yamaha and Schilke horns that I have owned or do own seem to
respond best to minimal weightings. The Yamaha heavy wall horns respond best to
a weight in the third valve only. Schilkes play best the way they were made, or
with the standard caps spaced with o-rings. All of these findings IMHO.
> I have been pleased with somewhat heavier Monette mouthpieces, especially
> the
> tonal quality and projection, but for me they require some additional
> effort in
> articulation, which is particularly noticeable when fatigue starts to show.
> But
> I can live with it given the other things I value.
Jim, I would bet that if Monette made you a mouthipece, and had your horn there
to adjust the mouthpiece to when he made his play tests and alterations, David
could make adjustments that would literally take away the articulation concerns
you mention. It is amazing, but David has a "touch" or "feel" if you prefer,
with these things. Until you see him do this, you can't believe it.
>
> I've also tried Bach Megatone mouthpieces and hated them. They look rather
> like
> Monettes superficially, but played nothing like them. The sound was harsh
> and
> strident, the intonation was goofy, and it took a lot of effort to get
> notes
> started. Maybe I just had a bad one....
The added mass of the megatone mouthpiece is not the secret ingredient to
creating a larger tone, a better sound. I own one Bach megatone, only because I
was silly enough to try it. Bach mouthpieces are best in their standard weights.
>
> Some folks find that one heavy valve cap on the third valve represents a
> good
> compromise, a bit of the advantage with only enough of the disadvantages
> that
> one can stand it.
>
> It is a funny business, but real enough.
Real, indeed. Jim and I would never write these things unless we have tried and
tested them. You need not take our words for it, but at least consider that we
are writing these thing to share our experiences with you. Agree with us or
disagree with us, but consider our experiences. Tell of your experiences. I'd
liek to hear other viewpoints-uncritical, critical. But, of the product, not
the writer!
Al Lilly
inte...@my-deja.com
difficult to quantify because every horns of different makes and brands
are different with many different variables to compare.
If more scientific comments are desired, such comparison requires
controllled variables. For example,
The same trumpet player
The same mouthpiece
The same type of trumpet like Calicchio lite weight.
Then change the Calicchio lite weight bell with heavier copper Bell.
Or keeping everything else the same. Then change bottom cap with a
heavy one.
Otherwise, meaningfull qualitative data is obtained. You will get more
opinionated and qualitative (not quantitative) information.
If an extreme example is needed, a good comparison may be Claude Gordon
trumpet vs Monette or Stomvi Manbo vs Monnet look-a-like Taylor
trumpet. Keep the same trumpet player and mouthpiece the same.
I my own preference, for example, I like a light trumpet for dance
orchestra especially for Latin. I like a heavier trumpet for classic
where tutonic sounds with core are required.
Light weight trumpet with shallow mouthiece do not produce tutonic,
dark sounds with core required for classic.
For Jazz that allows personal freedom of expression (many musical
interpretations are allowed), requirements such as light vs heavy are
not so distinctive.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jrc1shark
is extremely hard to find) and do not add any mass to it. Same goes with
yamaha. Every "heavy belled" Bach or yamaha that I've played has sounded dull
from mf to ppp. The megatone was an attempt by Bach to copy a monette. All they
did was dull the mpiece as well as made it longer than a standard Bach mpc
resulting in an even lower pitch center and even worse intonation.
the mass on the Monette horns results in much faster response and much more
resonance ie rub in the sound. I've owned many Monettes and the heavier each
horn was the more overtones were produced and the projection is not to be
believed! The horns are balanced and the adjustments are critical to the horn
and to the individual player. The depth of colors on them are really great to
experiment with.
other brands of heavy horns that I have played tend to be very hard to play and
very dull.......and as David has written would just be a pain to carry to a
gig!....lol
my 2 cents
J Raschella
Pops
Many posters are younger than my socks and on have experience with 1 or
2 horns. Yet they are attempting to pass themselves off as experts.
THe leadpipe and bore affect the way a horn blows. NOT the way it
sounds.
The bell taper is very important as well as the copper content and the
weight.
Information about my trumpet & embouchure books.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com
Best wishes
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
mm
been my experience.
nick_t...@my-deja.com
> THe leadpipe and bore affect the way a horn blows. NOT the way it
> sounds.
I'm no expert, but I know for a fact that the leadpipe affects how the
trumpet sounds. I put a blackburn 19-350 on my Bach C trumpet, and the
sound was instantly smaller and thinner. A few weeks later I put my
bach 25A pipe back on and the sound was much larger and richer (i.e.
more upper and lower harmonics). The difference was drastic enough for
layman to notice a huge difference.
I guess in changing the way the horn "blows," it changed the way the
horn sounded. Regardless, the leadpipe most definitely affected the
way the horn sounded.
Like I said, I'm no expert. This is just my personal experience.
sincerely,
Nick_the_D!&K
BlastMaster
audience members in the last month regarding very distinctive
differences between horns I've been trying over the last two months on
jazz gigs.
In article <93b6e2$gui$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
William Graham
"leadpipe" the 10" thing that your mouthpiece jams into at the front end of
the horn, and the tuning slide runs into at the other end? - If so, I don't
understand how you can swap it out every week or so. On my Bach strad
trumpet in "C", the leadpipe is brazed onto the rest of the horn, and it's
also braced to the bell section in two places. It would take a massive
rebuild effort to change it out with another type of pipe. I have never seen
a horn that had a leadpipe that was made to be easily interchanged with
another type. - Am I missing something here? - Bill Graham
<nick_t...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93d8t4$7pb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Richard Bush
There are usually three points of contact, from the back of the bell to the
mouthpiece receiver, from the second valve casing to about the middle of the
lead pipe and then a brace from the bell to the tuning slide receiver. A fourth
solder might also be needed to transfer the baby finger hook to the top of the
tuning slide receiver.
All of this is done quite easily, providing that the mouthpiece receiver does
not have to be transferred and refit to a different lead pipe.
People who are serious about having their lead pipes exchanged have me do it
not all that infrequently. The job isn't all that "massive [of a] rebuild
effort." Besides, everyone knows trumpet players are in high demand, get more
money and play more frequently than almost anyone other than the basic three of
a rhythm section. :-)
Dr. Trumpet
> THe leadpipe and bore affect the way a horn blows. NOT the way it
> sounds.
>
> The bell taper is very important as well as the copper content and the
> weight.
Suffice it to say, you and I see this differently, Pops. While the leadpipe and
bore do affect the blow to an extent, it is the taper to and from that bore that
makes as much difference, if not more.
And, the resistance of any instrument has a direct relation to how your lip
responds and reacts to the feel of the blow, and the overall tonal product. To
ignore those characteristics as part of the variable which affect sound is to
say that one sounds is not dictated by the leadpipe taper and the venturi at the
head of the leadpipe. While they may not directly affect the sound by the
characteristics they possess, they certainly affect the overall performance and
hence the output of the instrument.
AL
William Graham
1. I'm not a pro.
2. I don't run my own horn repair facility.
I can certainly believe that it would be interesting, (and, if not too much
trouble,) to change out these kinds of parts routinely to get better
performance from your equipment. I just didn't think that anyone would
actually go to that much trouble, so I thought that there existed horns that
had these kinds of parts made to be easily interchanged. (I've seen horns
whose bells could be interchanged)
I guess it's not too much trouble for you to relaquer the horn after this
kind of change also....? Is this kind of change more difficult if the horn
is silverplated?
Sorry to ask all these questions, but I am really interested.. -
Bill Graham
Richard Bush <rbushi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A5A3EA8...@home.com...
inte...@my-deja.com
There are all kinds of trumpets and cornets used in Jazz while in
Classic players tend to favor a certain type of trumpets.
If you make a qualitative statistically analysis of trumpets used in
Jazz, you see rather broad distribution of population by horn types.
No one forces a trumpet player to use a certain model of Bach in Jazz.
Some orchestras still require the same brand of trumpet.
Just a thought.
Jrc1shark
>been my experience
With conventional horns I'd have to say yes however every Monette horn I've
ever owned/played has reponded much faster than any other brand with my
heaviest Monette (weighs around 8 lbs) having by far the fastest response.
Nick_the_D!&K
therefore I can indeed swap bells if I want to. Right now I only have 2,
but I'm always on the lookout for more. Also, having the tuneable bell
really open up a lot of options as far as tuning and resistance goes. You
can keep the horn at the same pitch while you change the resistance by
moving the main tuning slide in or out. Somewhere in between all of those
variables there is a balanced position where the horn blows just the way you
want it to and plays in tune much easier.
I had my trumpet guru repairman change the leadpipe. It was eye-opening to
try just one different leadpipe. To me, it had a significant impact on how
the horn sounded and blew. My intention was to find a pipe that would
improve the intonation and improve how the horn slotted. The Blackburn
19-350 improved how it slotted, but the same intonation problems existed,
and the sound was not nearly what I wanted, so I just went back to my Bach
25A.
Just a few thoughts . . .
Nick_the_D!&K
"William Graham" <we...@home.com> wrote in message
news:oOs66.243643$U46.7...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
stei...@pilot.msu.edu
Jrc1shark wrote:
Having never played a Monette, I've heard this statement about their ease of
response before.
Aside from these heavy monsters, my experience has been what you would expect:
The lighter the horn, the quicker the response.
I've had a thought about this: It may well be that the very heavy horns play a
lot like very light horns, because not much energy can get transfered into
vibrating the metal.
It sounds kooky, but the analogous effect occurs, for instance, when wiggling a
piece of string hanging down from your hand: If the far end is tied to the
floor, you can easily set up standing waves. If the far end is just flopping
around, you can do the same thing. If it is stuck in a bucket of water, no
standing waves.
Similarly in electronics: Ground the end of a coaxial cable (zero resistance)
and you get echoes; leave it open (infinite resistance) and the same thing
happens.
Now terminate with 50 Ohms. All will be quiet.
Finally answers the questions what's halfway between zero and infinity... it's
fifty Ohms....
So the heavy horns suck a lot of energy out ofthe air column, whereas the
super-light and super-heavy ones don't. Just a thought.
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI
MartinR100
I can certainly believe that it would be interesting, (and, if not too much
trouble,) to change out these kinds of parts routinely to get better
performance from your equipment >>
Check out the Smith Watkins horns with the interchangable lead pipes. Great
horns.
Tommy T.
(on a Benge C and a Selmer Picc).
I would say that the bell has a PRIMARY effect on timbre and the leadpipe
has a PRIMARY effect on the blow, but each can effect the other
characteristic as well. If my goal was to change timbre, I would address
the bell and if my goal was to change intonation or resistance, I would
address the leadpipe. However, in my experience with only two horns,
changing the leadpipe DID ALSO change the timbre.
I have no opinion as to whether the change in timbre was "intrinsic" to the
horn or the result of my playing it differently because of the different
blow. In any case, a change was noticeable.
Tommy T.
Toshi Clark
From what I've heard, you got a very typical Megatone. Locking in the
suspect intonation of most standard Bach mouthpieices is not a good
idea, imo, but is what the Megatones do.
--
Toshi Clark
In article <20010107194819...@ng-cm1.aol.com>,
jfdon...@aol.comnospam (Jim Donaldson) wrote:
> I've also tried Bach Megatone mouthpieces and hated them. They look
> rather like Monettes superficially, but played nothing like them.
> The sound was harsh and strident, the intonation was goofy, and it
> took a lot of effort to get notes started. Maybe I just had a bad
> one....
Toshi Clark
bell Bb (from the standard 25, I believe), and the sound was much more
focused afterwards. Of course, the intonation took a turn for the worse,
since the tighter 6 pipe seemed to strengthen the slotting (albeit in
funny places). The sound definitely was changed; maybe because the
slotting felt different I (and the shop repairmen) played it
differently, leading to the changed sound.
--
Toshi Clark
In article <93d8t4$7pb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
nick_t...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'm no expert, but I know for a fact that the leadpipe affects how the
> trumpet sounds.
BlastMaster
may or may not have something to do with their sound. Some players'
choice of horns is a matter of convenience, I would say this is
probably more true in jazz ensembles, where people playing professional
gigs may very well be playing on the same axe they bought on their way
out of high school.
I don't think you can claim that a statistical analysis of the
distribution of horn types will (a) yield results that are meaningful,
without talking about the other factors which can contribute to the
selection of a horn, nor (b) yield results that have much of anything
to do with the characteristics of heavy horns versus light horns.
There are too many other variables to consider.
(Also, you talk about a 'qualitative statistically [sic] analysis'
yielding a broad distribution of horn types. You mean 'quantitative',
if you're talking about brands, or horn components, or horn weights.
Unless you're talking about jazz players evaluating the quality of
characteristics of their horns.)
In article <93dkpp$iaf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
-- Jeff
Pops
The topic IS about IF a different weight in BELLS has an effect.
The answer is YES.
You are right that other things CAN affect how we respond to a horn and
as a result affect the sound. (Ever wonder why some horns have 2 types
of water keys? Or 1 heavy valve cap. Or rubber nipples on the water
keys. ect) And of course clearly mismatching leadpipe and bell tapers
throws the horn out of tune. But this is in the Schilke Brass Clinic
info I got in 74 and Jim put on his webpage.
However; as I see the topic my answer was more to the point.
-----
I have a horn (leadpipe taper - Bell taper combination) that I like.
Would a heavy bell change the sound?
I wanted to answer THAT.
If you liked how a certain horn played and how it blew but wanted a
darker sound; would you REALLY change the leadpipe???????
No you would change the bell. You would get a copper bell, or a heavy
bell, or a heavy copper bell; in the same taper that you already liked
on the old horn.
The average person is MUCH better off knowing that bell weight and
material affect tone. That change will always work. They keep the same
taper and get a different weight and material.
To give them the idea of leadpipes being a better way to change the
SOUND is not logical. If they go on a leadpipe hunt we both know that it
will lead to iffy results. Bad intonation, closing the throat,
overblowing, adjusting the embouchure for NO good reason.......
Changing the bell weight or material will NOT cause those problems.
(Same taper)
Every answer I post takes the pros and cons into account. So I often
exclude what I think is TOO much info. After all this is NOT a forum of
only pro players. There are 7 year olds on here as well as M.S. and H.S.
students who want a darker tone.
(BTW I am on 2 pro player email lists and last year there were 0
discussions about mouthpieces, embouchures, range, endurance or horn
construction.)
Lastly I hope that everyone is able to adjust their mouthpiece, chops
and air usage to compensate for bore size. If you can NOT how do you
play a piccolo or Bass trumpet? Or even a flugel for that matter?
William Graham
horns have happened mostly as a matter of opportunity, rather than careful
selection. - I just happened to be in the right place at the right time,
and seized the opportunity to pick up one that sounded pretty good, so I
bought it. - For instance, my flugelhorn. - About a year ago, I was in my
favorite music store and they had a brand new flugelhorn, I was trying it
out, (and worrying about how I was going to pay for it if I liked it), when
the sales clerk says, you know, we just got in a used Yamaha pro horn, and
we are going to sell it for about half what this one is going for, - would
you like to see it? - Of course! - I tried it out, and it was a beautiful
sounding Yamaha YFH635ST about 10 years old, that looked like it had never
been played, so I bought it. I had to free up the #1 slide, but otherwise,
this is the nicest sounding flugel I have ever played, and it was only about
1/2 the new price! - Bill Graham
BlastMaster <jhel...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93ffc0$tq9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
SQ1beavis
>super-light and super-heavy ones don't. Just a thought.
>
>-Mathias
It seems to me, and I've read some where, that light wieght horns waste a lot
of energy. The vibrating you feel in your hands when playing a light weight
horn is energy absorbed by the horn and because it doesn't make any sound, it's
wasted energy. A heavy horn, on the other hand, doesn't vibrate as much, and
less energy is wasted.
That makes sense to me.
Ron
inte...@my-deja.com
than classical players.
You continued that it may or may not have something to do with their
sound. It could be a matter of convenience as you said.
In short, trumpet players select their own trumpet in Jazz. Jazz comes
from heart. It does not come from the types of trumpets.
inte...@my-deja.com
> The leadpipe and bore affect the way a horn blows. NOT the way it
> sounds.
The way it sounds varies as a result when the leadpipe and bore become
part of the horn.
> The bell taper is very important as well as the copper content and the
> weight.
This does also affect sounds.
> Information about my trumpet & embouchure books.
I lost interest in your book.
Nick_the_D!&K
do you?
<inte...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:93h50b$73a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
BlastMaster
inte...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Jazz comes from heart.
As opposed to classical trumpet, which...?
> It does not come from the types of trumpets.
Thanks for the primer on jazz trumpet. I don't know how I've survived
all this time.
inte...@my-deja.com
in classical music.
Jazz is of improvisation. It is more important how players feel about
the musical images at the time of gig.
Thanks for challenging my thought all the time.
In article <93i1cj$v13$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
BlastMaster
Dr. Trumpet
> Composer's interpretation in classical music is weighted more weighed
> in classical music.
>
> Jazz is of improvisation. It is more important how players feel about
> the musical images at the time of gig.
>
>
I am not sure I follow the above. Can you make it a little more lucid? The
first statement makes no sense, the second I follow but am not sure I totally
agree with.
In any matter, a little further explanation sure would help!
Thanks,
AL
BlastMaster
> in classical music.
(Your sentence does not sentence make any. Sense.)
If you're saying that the composer's intent carries more weight in
classical interpretation, this depends on the type of ensemble you're
playing in. Let's not confuse section playing with small group
playing.
> Jazz is of improvisation.
Cool, so I don't need to read the parts or support the lead player on
my big band gig on Friday? Wow, that ought to make it easier.
Perhaps you could refer me to a recording in which you utilize this
approach?
> It is more important how players feel about
> the musical images at the time of gig.
Musical images? I'm intrigued. Any chance I can try what you're
smoking? (Though I'm afraid it may affect the language center of my
brain.)
> Thanks for challenging my thought all the time.
I only challenge your thinking when it appears that you're
pontificating (which appears to be most of the time).
BlastMaster
In article <4FZ66.203351$hD4.52...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>,
"Nick_the_D!&K" <her...@cso.com> wrote:
> You don't mean to suggest that classical music doesn't come from the
heart,
> do you?