Should I Gold Plate My Cornet?
Michael
I play this horn in a local brass band. I was thinking
about having the horn gold plated to make it sound darker or
mellower. I was wondering if anyone else has done this and
what the results were. Will I be ruining a good horn by
adding the gold plating?
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Jerry Houston
is so very thin, and the metal itself so similar to the original brass, that
it should have a negligible effect on the sound.
You can undoubtedly darken your sound much more with the appropriate
selection of a mouthpiece than by having your cornet plated with anything.
(And probably at 1/8 the cost.)
Schilke did the classic study in this area of brass acoustics a few years
ago, and a quick summary of his results was that lacquer applied to a raw
brass instrument degrades its sound, while plating doesn't have any effect
on it. In response to his own findings, Schilke hasn't produced a lacquered
instrument since then - just raw brass and silver plated.
Surely gold plating can't be much different.
Jerry in Seattle
Michael <mape...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9319028...@www.remarq.com...
Corneterb
plating is not placed directly on the brass to start with. The instrument is
first silver plated, and then gold plating is placed over the silver plating.
Regardless, the end result is still metal on metal, and the tone is not going
to change. If you are looking for a darker and rounder sound, perhaps a
V-cupped mouthpiece would do the trick. Good luck.
Andy Erb
Pittsburgh, PA
Dr. Trumpet
corn...@aol.com (Corneterb) wrote:
Andy,
While I agree more difference can be made with mouthpiece that plating,
interesting effects have been observed by me personally with a Bach Bb
trumpet that I had played for 14 years in silver and had it redone in
gold. The gold made a huge difference in the sound and the response of
the instrument. It seemed to me that the gold was slightly heavier than
the silver, due largely to the fact that the gold plating was of course
done over silver (the standard method). Were I to play this horn having
never played it before, I would just say it is a really, really super Bach
trumpet in gold. Having played it both ways, the differences were
stark. I could play at greater dynamic variances with less difficulty,
the instrument seemed "heavier" when I played it, but also seemed to
project a rich, larger core tone. It also recorded better.
I read some research into the sound transmission rates of gold, silver and
lacquer. Raw brass transmits sound at something like 3600 f/s, while
silver is something like 3450 f/s. Gold transmitted sound somewhere in
the neighborhood of 2800 f/s, while lacquer transmitted at about 1800
f/s. Even with the microthin layers of lacquer that are possible with
todays modern lacquering techniques as perfected by Yamaha and others, it
is still clear that the transmission rate of the lacquer is much slower
than any plating avaialable. Considering the buffing techniques used by
most manufacturers, and the thickness of the plating that exists, the best
one can hope for is to add back the mass of the brass removed by buffing
with the plating. Why not replace it with any of the better and more
equal alternatives, instead of lacquer?
One other consideration: lacquered brass has to be prepared to the
highest degree of polish before the lacquer is applied, which results in
an instrument which has been buffed a bit more than the silver, taking off
more of the metal.
Al Lilly
Scott Humphries
affects the sound please
Dr. Trumpet <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dr_trpt-spamfree...@p18-term3.scican.net...
Dr. Trumpet
<iama...@home.com> wrote:
Scott,
Sure.
Transmission rate is the rate of speed at which sound moves through a
media. For example, we know the speed of sound in air as mach 1, 900
something miles per hour. The transmission rate of metal determines how
fast it responds to the vibration input, and while the base metal in the
case of a trumpet determines most of it, my contention is the finish can
enhance or detract from it due to its transmission rates.
AL
Aric Madayag
cornets?
Aric
Jerry Houston <jer...@oz.net> wrote:
: You probably won't change anything but its appearance. Typical gold plating
: Jerry in Seattle
--
Aric Madayag
Physics/EE Senior
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Email: gt8...@prism.gatech.edu
web page: http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt8759a
Corneterb
Thank you for the information on transmission rates. I can see why the horn
would feel heavier with gold plating, and I find it interesting that gold
plating made such a big difference in your horn. It sounds like it made a
positive difference for you. My personal experience in playing both silver and
gold is that the tone did not change that much. It did feel heavier, but if
the tone changed, it was a minimal amount. I couldn't tell the difference on
recordings of the gold vs recordings of the silver. This is only my personal
experience, and I am sure that it is probably different for others. I also
agree with you that laquer is not a good choice for plating an instrument. I
believe that laquer is made partially of a plastic kind of material if I am not
mistaken. This material would not transmit sound or ring as metal would, and
that is the reason for the "dullness" to a laquered horn. It essentially keeps
the bell from ringing. Anyway, Al, thanks for the information...I appreciate
it.
Andy Erb
Pittsburgh, PA
Dr. Trumpet
corn...@aol.com (Corneterb) wrote:
Andy,
My pleasure. The important thing is that it work for you. If no change
was apparent, then nothing happened........despite science, sometimes
things don't always work for every person like they should. It is
important that the folks here get differing viewpoints and make a
judgement with different ideas to consider. I appreciate your comments
and hope mine have helped!
Best wishes,
AL
Jerry Houston
appearance and convenience, however, not by changing the sound.
I think the idea of gold-plating a cornet or trumpet is a worthy one, and
I'm very seriously considering getting my signature Kanstul cornet gold
plated, once it gets back from a little customization that's being done.
Gold doesn't tarnish like silver, and it doesn't degrade the sound like
lacquer. I think it's the perfect outer surface for a brass instrument.
But Al's experience with that one instrument aside, I wouldn't EXPECT such a
big change in sound from my cornet once it's gold-plated. Certainly not a
darkening that I can readily detect. I would expect it to be beautiful to
look at, a pleasure to keep clean, and to sound exactly the same as it did
before it was gold-plated.
If you really want a darker sound, look into a V-cup mouthpiece from Bach or
Denis Wick, or an extra-deep mouthpiece from one of the other suppliers.
You can hear the difference in sound quality just by buzzing on that, then
on your typical mouthpiece. You can buy a Bach 5V, for instance, for about
$26, and its effect is easily reversible if you don't like the way it
sounds. Just pull it out and put it in a drawer! <g>
Jerry in Seattle
PS: Anyone got John Lynch's email address handy? Thanks!
Aric Madayag <gt8...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:7mkpim$j...@catapult.gatech.edu...
NORGEFAR
per hour."
Actually - 740 miles at 32 degrees F (1087 fps), 770 miles per hour at 70
degrees F. (1129 fps - typical summer storm temp. when we count the seconds
from lightning flash to sound of thunder and estimate lightning is a mile away
if 5 seconds elapse).
The famous MACH 1 "sound barrier" of jets must also take in account altitude
(fewer air particles - colder temps). At 39,000 feet altitude (prob. -40
degrees F), speed of sound is 658 mph. So we advise against playing trumpet on
the wings of a jet at that altitude.
Charlie Mraz
silver and even a lot of the brass is worn through in several places.
This has a lot to do with the chemical balance of my skin and of the
skin of the previous owner, but gold plating will not wear off as easily
as silver will. It is far more resistant to oxidation. Gold plated
instruments, in my opinion, sound very similar to their silverplated
counterparts, but are much easier to care for and won't have to be
replated, probably ever. Also, I heard that they can now put gold on
directly over silver, but that may be just a vicious rumour.
Charlie
Aric Madayag wrote:
>
> Are you saying that it won't help to gold plate any trumpets? or just
> cornets?
>
> Aric
>
Jerry Houston
silver-plated first, then gold plating applied over the silver.
For what it's worth, I just made arrangements with John Lynch to gold-plate
my Kanstul signature cornet. Since it's new, and already in silver, there's
no buffing required. That being the case, he quoted me just $200 for the
gold plating. It's well worth that never to have to polish the thing again,
ever.
I thought maybe others who have been considering this might be interested in
how little it can cost. It's got me thinkin' how nice a gold Benge 7X might
look ...
Jerry in Seattle
Charlie Mraz <gt4...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:378E8E1A...@prism.gatech.edu...
<snip>
Woody Shaw
and your ear anyway. Why spend tons of money for something that may seem to
do the trick for only a couple weeks at most??? Your body will naturally
adjust its tone and everything back to where it feels it's natural......
IT'S ALL MENTAL, PEOPLE!!!!
Jerry Houston
Woody Shaw <high...@harlannet.com> wrote in message
news:7mos9t$ct9$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Dr. Trumpet
<high...@harlannet.com> wrote:
>
> In the end your sound is going to be determined by your own concept of tone
> and your ear anyway.
No one has ever said that it wouldn't or doesn't. But all changes to
equipment effect the instrument. Some changes help, other do not. Some
will help some horns due to the sundry variables that are present in the
manufacturing process. Others will not help any horn. Some things should
help every horn.
> Why spend tons of money for something that may seem to
> do the trick for only a couple weeks at most???
Because it is not a trick, and not a gimmick. For me, it made my horn far
more focused, centered, and the old ML Bach just responded better and
played louder before the tone came apart. With the gold, an additional
volume level on both ends was added. Definitely not mental when people
notice a difference on a tape and without even seeing the horn.
> Your body will naturally
> adjust its tone and everything back to where it feels it's natural......
Maybe. If it makes the horn do more for you, then natural feel has
nothing to do with it. What can happen is enhancement of the horn so that
added capabilities are possible. If your theory were true, we should all
be playing on our old Bundy's because no matter what horn we would play,
we would adjust to it and go back to our "natural" way of playing.
Except, that isn't the case is it. Many of us agree that no two horns
really play alike, and if your theory were true, the differences wouldn't
matter to any of us, as our " body will naturally adjust its tone and
everything back to where it feels it's natural...". Why buy a Bach or a
Schilke (or heaven forbid a more custom Calicchio, Blackburn or Monette)
because we'll all just adjust back to playing like we did on our Bundy
after a week or two anyway? Does this sound fishy to you yet?
You buy a custom horn or have it redone to enhance or to preserve it. In
doing so, the horn that returns is not exactly the same horn it was when
it left. Even if the plater has done minimal prep work, there has been
some buffing done to the horn. It has changed. Maybe better, maybe not.
All of us have heard horror stories of horns that go away to the platers
as great horns, and return as dogs. If your theory hold, it doesn't
matter if any should ever return as dogs, because "its all mental".
Again I ask: does this sound fishy to you yet?
>
> IT'S ALL MENTAL, PEOPLE!!!!
There is a mental part of preparation, to be sure. But to deny the
affects of a complete replate of the horn ignores the numerous and sundry
variables involved in the work, and says that no matter how badly or how
much the plater buffs the horn, no matter how bad the plate job is (to
thick can be worse than too thin), it is all trivial as we'll adjust back
to the horn in a week or two any way. One last time: does this sound
fishy to you?
If it doesn't, please explain all of these variables to me in a way that
accounts for them in one's playing, and offer logical explanations for all
of the other ideas that I mention above.
Thanks for reading,
AL
David Rice
Dave -----------------------------------------------------
"Due to a shortage of trumpet players,
the end of the world has been postponed indefinitely."
Dr. Trumpet
<dwr...@erols.com> wrote:
> OK - I'm convinced - where can I get an old beat up Bundy??
> Dave
:-))))))))
Corner the market now!!!!
Ed Grant
3rd slide in great shape, c/w case. :o) Just kidding....I use it when
I'm out camping and I've promised it to the kids should they choose to go
trumpet when they decide they can't or won't learn any more piano!
David Rice <dwr...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7mq4ep$nic$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> OK - I'm convinced - where can I get an old beat up Bundy??
Woody Shaw
play as well as your mt. vernon.... but in the end how your horn is plated
isn't going to make more than a miniscule bit of difference... sure it
might help focus the sound, but i'm sure that has a lot more to do with the
added weight factor and metal resonance than it does gold...
my point was:
if you have been playing on your nice silver bach strad 37 for say 20 years
and you go and decide to get it gold plated, you get it back and it feels
more focused and centered... a week or two after that your ear will
naturally change your sound to be what it was before...
MAYBE THIS IS WHY PEOPLE PRACTICE LONG TONES!!!
the purpose is to get the tone you want in your ear and than apply it toward
getting the sound through your horn... all degree of focus could be
acheived this way as opposed to plating your horn again... but if you want
to go blow your dough that's your business
Dr. Trumpet
<high...@harlannet.com> wrote:
> use common sense when reading posts..... of course a bundy isn't going to
> play as well as your mt. vernon.... but in the end how your horn is plated
> isn't going to make more than a miniscule bit of difference... sure it
> might help focus the sound, but i'm sure that has a lot more to do with the
> added weight factor and metal resonance than it does gold...
When a professional gets to a certain level, a miniscule difference may be
the difference between a horn that works and one that doesn't.
>
> my point was:
>
> if you have been playing on your nice silver bach strad 37 for say 20 years
> and you go and decide to get it gold plated, you get it back and it feels
> more focused and centered... a week or two after that your ear will
> naturally change your sound to be what it was before...
Or, maybe, the tone of the instrument changes and improves due to the fact
that the horn changes and is different. If a tool suddenly works better
and does things that work easier than before, it is improved.
>
> MAYBE THIS IS WHY PEOPLE PRACTICE LONG TONES!!!
There are lots of reasons to practice long tone, one of which is
refinement of tone. It is not the only reason.
>
> the purpose is to get the tone you want in your ear and than apply it toward
> getting the sound through your horn... all degree of focus could be
> acheived this way as opposed to plating your horn again... but if you want
> to go blow your dough that's your business
No one denies that concept and fundamentals are important. To deny that
any instrument will or could make it easier to achieve that result is
simply untrue. The horn I had gold plated had shortcomings that NEVER
improved through another plating (in silver). The gold plating improved
it. My concept of tone has not changed, but the Bach in 18 years of
ownership NEVER achieved what I desired. Other horns did not either.
Now, the Bach does. My Monettes do.
Again, in this instance, my experiences are different that your
suppositions. Bottom line, I put a horn through it and it worked. How
many have you put through the process? None. If experience on this group
speaks less loudly than supposition and posturing, it is time to give it
up. This is what DID happen to the trumpet, not what you suppose "might"
happen.
Perhaps the instrument has nothing to do with it. But, if one believes
that, then one denies the usefulness of any improvements to any
instrument, and should be as good on a Bach as on a Bundy, which simply
isn't the case. One would sound as good on a lacquered horn, which isn't
always the case (although some do sound better on a lacquered horn because
it meets their needs).
Bobby Shew talks about plating and differences that plating makes in the
new Yamaha newsletter that just went out. Perhaps his ideas will ring
more correct in your ear than mine do. Perhaps not.
AL
Trayne102
>my point was:
>
>if you have been playing on your nice silver bach strad 37 for say 20 years
>and you go and decide to get it gold plated, you get it back and it feels
>more focused and centered... a week or two after that your ear will
>naturally change your sound to be what it was before...
I don't know if this is neccessarily true.
>
>MAYBE THIS IS WHY PEOPLE PRACTICE LONG TONES!!!
Woody makes a valid point, but I have a rhetorical question. IS THIS WHY
PEOPLE PRACTICE LONG TONES?????
I know many pro's that don't believe in conventional long tones, and are
opposed to randomly holding out notes. My reasons for practicing long tones
are different than the reason Woody stated.
I'm sincerely interested in player's various reasons for practicing long tones.
Let's take a poll! "Why do you practice Long Tones, or Do you?"
Woody's reason for practicing Long tones:
>the purpose is to get the tone you want in your ear and than apply it toward
>getting the sound through your horn... all degree of focus could be
>acheived this way as opposed to plating your horn again.
I disagree. All the focus in the world isn't going to change the way different
plating densities transmit vibrations. Timbre will still be different 2 years
later. Maybe the sound will change slightly in 2 weeks, BUT will never be the
same as the original quality of sound. Physics teaches us differently.
Sincerely,
Wayne
> but if you want
>to go blow your dough that's your business
>
It sure is!
RAD
in Washington DC. I am THRILLED by how great the horn now looks. It
plays as smoothly as before, but looks much better (if you like gold,
and I do!). He even did one of my mouthpieces as well, and it "feels"
better than before. I can't hear any difference in the sound of the
horn, but I liked the way it sounded before, so I'm delighted!
Contact John for a superb, quality job! JLy...@DC.net
Bob D.
Atlanta, GA
Michael <mape...@webtv.net> wrote:
>I have a silver Besson Sovereign cornet model number BE928.
>I play this horn in a local brass band. I was thinking
>about having the horn gold plated to make it sound darker or
>mellower. I was wondering if anyone else has done this and
>what the results were. Will I be ruining a good horn by
>adding the gold plating?
>
>
>
Woody Shaw
it's easier to change my playing than to change my horn, and in the end i
feel it will make me a better player to learn to adapt myself instead of
rely on modifications to my horn... but my opinion isn't everyone's nor
should it be.
Dr. Trumpet
<high...@harlannet.com> wrote:
I totally agree that it is always best to approach things that way-make
your work and your development the important part of any sound concept
changes. It is never a guarantee that a change will positively affect any
instrument. Many times, horns with custom modifications make a horn
worse, not better. I tooka big gamble when I went to gold plate my Bach.
But, with 19 year of age and this being the second replate, the worse
thing I could do was let the horn rot away. So, I took the chance!
Luckily for me, it worked. Luckily for me, it was a good move. It does
work for everyone, and you are right that many people will see more
dramatic results by applying good concepts and developing a good tonal
concept than by replating.
I wish you every success in your efforts.
B-FLAT MUSIC
Another voice of one who cries in the wilderness??? (grin)
"You, Sir, are in charge - not that four feet of brass tubing!"
Keep 'Em Flying!
Clyde Hunt
http://www.BFLATMUSIC.com/askclyde.html