valve coatings
Aremick
low friction coatings that might be applied to reduce friction in the
valves, improving speed and reducing wear. There's so me great
engineered coatings out there that could be applied directly to the
valve without screwing up the close tolerances (but reducing them slightly).
(I will note here, for those of you who may have played with me, that
valve speed is not the limiting factor in my own playing...)
I went as far as to contact several companies that apply these coating,
and one of them asked me about marketing - is there indeed a market for
this sort of thing? One estimate was that they could coat the pieces
for about $20 each - a small price to pay ($60 total) if indeed there
was a significant benefit.
I would like some feedback from this list before I go ahead and try it
- is it something that is worthwhile, that you would pay money for?
Randy Replogle
wrote:
I have often thought how a microscopic teflon valve coating would act.
Valve action is good enough usually these days that $60 wouldn't be
worth (to me) it for possibly unnoticable improvement.
Randy
Rudy
reluctant to coat valve pistons; 1). impact the tolerance(betw. casing &
valve); 2) coatings may tend to peel w/ age & use. This would not be a
prudent move. Rudy.................
"Aremick" <a_re...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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William Graham
Sure. I would be willing to pay for a good coating, but my question is, "How
long will it last?" I wouldn't want to have to do it every year. Also, if
the coating wears off, what happens to the powder or whatever that chips
off.....Would it screw up the valve action? I have wondered myself why they
don't make the whole valve out of plastic, and give it a Teflon coating. Is
there something inherently necessary about a metal valve? Or, why not make
the valve out of metal, but way too small, and then build up a Teflon
coating to bring it to the proper size. Or, why not engineer the valves with
piston rings, like automotive valves....Perhaps build them in several
pieces, so they can be assembled before inserting them in the
casings........Trumpet valves in their present configuration have been
around for close to two hundred years....You'd think that there would be a
better, more modern design by now....
Gordon Hudson
"William Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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The Rotary valve is a much simpler solution....
William Graham
"Gordon Hudson" <gor...@usenet3.hostroute.co.uk> wrote in message
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heard they are a bear to disassemble and clean/adjust. - It could be that
they need redesigning too......
Gordon Hudson
>
>> The Rotary valve is a much simpler solution....
>>
> I'm not entirely sure that's true. They use cables, don't they?
No, its linkages.
Some horns use strings but all the trumpets I have seen are linkages..
> heard they are a bear to disassemble and clean/adjust. -
Thats true but you don't need to take them apart often.
Possibly never.
Aremick
Actually, my first thought was to make the valves out of something like
Delrin or Teflon rod - but I lack even the basic machining tools
necessary to cut these myself, and there may be resistance to replacing
a piece of monel with something plastic. (But they probably would be
lighter and faster than the metal ones...) That's a problem for someone
else to try (for now!).
I was thinking along the lines of TiN, like they use on drill bits and
motorcycle forks. Long lasting, low friction, and a cool gold color.
It can be deposited in such a thin film that even if it did come off,
which I don't think it would, it would have no impact on valve function.
But it is very hard, and an very low coefficient of friction.
Gordon Hudson wrote:
> "William Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:_7SdnUNMfpP...@comcast.com...
>
>>"Aremick" <a_re...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:NLGdnfslNtI...@comcast.com...
>>
>>Sure. I would be willing to pay for a good coating, but my question is,
William Graham
> Good questions, all...
>
> Actually, my first thought was to make the valves out of something like
> Delrin or Teflon rod - but I lack even the basic machining tools necessary
> to cut these myself, and there may be resistance to replacing a piece of
> monel with something plastic. (But they probably would be lighter and
> faster than the metal ones...) That's a problem for someone else to try
> (for now!).
>
> I was thinking along the lines of TiN, like they use on drill bits and
> motorcycle forks. Long lasting, low friction, and a cool gold color. It
> can be deposited in such a thin film that even if it did come off, which I
> don't think it would, it would have no impact on valve function. But it is
> very hard, and an very low coefficient of friction.
How about something exotic, like titanium, or carbon fiber?
Rich
love my horn, and my valves work well as they are (as well as my fingers
do).
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"Aremick" <a_re...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Carl Dershem
>> The Rotary valve is a much simpler solution....
>>
> I'm not entirely sure that's true. They use cables, don't they? - And
> I've heard they are a bear to disassemble and clean/adjust. - It could
> be that they need redesigning too......
There are several different connections. My french horn uses string (and
getting the right kind of string can be a nuisance), but the valves on my
trombones both use mechanical connectors. The strings are quieter, but
don't hold up as well. The rod and bearing connectors are louder and
heavier, but last longer. Neither needs to be cleaned and oiled as often
as a piston valve.
I've long been curious about a rotary trumpet, but have never actually
played one. The company that makes my horn dosn't make a rotary.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
John Miller
> I was thinking along the lines of TiN, like they use on drill bits and
> motorcycle forks. Long lasting, low friction, and a cool gold color. It
> can be deposited in such a thin film that even if it did come off, which
> I don't think it would, it would have no impact on valve function. But
> it is very hard, and an very low coefficient of friction.
Today, we have the materials technology to make valve pistons that will
outlast the horn. But that would mean that the renewable part will have
to be the valve casings, that is, instead of having the valves replated
and the casings honed, we'd have to have the casings plated, sleeved, or
some such. Here's one area where I'm inclined to accept the status quo.
Like the bicycle, piston valve instruments are actually pretty well
evolved.
--
John Miller
email domain: n4vu.com; username: jsm(@)
Surplus (for sale or trade):
F. Besson International Trumpet by Kanstul
William Graham
"John Miller" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
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> Aremick wrote:
>> I was thinking along the lines of TiN, like they use on drill bits and
>> motorcycle forks. Long lasting, low friction, and a cool gold color. It
>> can be deposited in such a thin film that even if it did come off, which
>> I don't think it would, it would have no impact on valve function. But
>> it is very hard, and an very low coefficient of friction.
>
> Today, we have the materials technology to make valve pistons that will
> outlast the horn. But that would mean that the renewable part will have
> to be the valve casings, that is, instead of having the valves replated
> and the casings honed, we'd have to have the casings plated, sleeved, or
> some such. Here's one area where I'm inclined to accept the status quo.
>
> Like the bicycle, piston valve instruments are actually pretty well
> evolved.
I agree that the design is pretty well evolved, but I think the introduction
of some of the newer, "space age" materials/coatings might offer some
improvement.
Dave C.
smoother valve, the area not solved by this is the sludge and stuff that
accumulates starting at the third valve where the tubing enters the third
valve. In my case, if I don't clean my horn for a few months of so, and I
inspect the third valve, I usually find stuff in the valve ports. And the
liquid around the valve has fines and dust mixed in with the lubricant.
After usual horn cleaning, I send a swab and bottle brush into each valve
casing and scrub each valve lightly with a wash cloth and detergent. After
oiling and assembling, the valves work noticeable faster and smoother.
I think any improvement in valve material to improve the action will still
be subject to this environment and will not eliminate the need for cleaning.
I have played with trumpet players who always seem to having third valve
sticking and the reason is that the horn cleaning has been neglected.
--
Dave C.
c9ar9d...@9c4.n9et
Remove the five 9's (leave the 4) for email.
"John Miller" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
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badnote
a dubba C ?
Aremick
Only hard, fast wear-resistant valves...
John Goodwin
incorporated - and it works brilliantly. Apart from continuing to work after
the oil has evaporated (or just fallen out!) I have found it to be fast and
reliable on everything from Schilke (tight valves) to an old and much loved
Benge oiled it and did not touch it for 3 months and the valves were fast
and free.
John
"Aremick" <a_re...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Clyde E. Hunt
Clyde E. Hunt
Clyde E. Hunt
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Diego
this topic was.
You might check with manufacturers of metal working tooling, such as
punches or even cutting tools. There have been amazing increases in
tool life with the addition of carbon nitride coatings. Try Wilson Tool
or Mate Precision Tools (my background is fabricating).
Peace, Diego