1954 Conn Trumpet model?
Fly1jet
serial #428###. It's brass and nickel plate? with floral stenciling from the
valves then down most of the bell. Marked, C.G. Conn Ltd. U.S.A. Elkhart. Ind
(middle of stenciling). Thanks for any help in advance. John
Fly1jet
intermediate? Thanks in advance. John
WiCAdam
The 80A is a very close relative to the one that Bix Beiderbeck played,
and Jim Cullum still does play at The Landing in San Antonio.
Theirs is the 6A model, also called the Victor, and the same large size
tubing is used. The horns are indistinguishable & I still don't know why
different model #s were used.
The bore is .484", as large as some old trombones.
It should have a small vertical tuning slide behind the first vave slide,
controled by a knob attached to threaded rods that push the slide in
& out. The other (normal) tunng slide was originally part of the 'quick-
change' mechanism, for retuning between Bb & A was a necessity
when the instrument was introdued in the late teens or '20's.
I have one & it is one of my favorite cornets. I also have the Victor
Special, which was shorter & had only a .453" bore.
Bill Adam
Dallas, TX USA
Dave Bovey
How can you tell that it's a cornet? Serial Number?
I have a Conn Victor (E27XXX) circa 1964 and its definitely a
trumpet.
Jerry Houston
mouthpiece. That's always a good clue.
Dave Bovey wrote in message <3657B07B...@jetlink.net>...
>Question:
>
>How can you tell that it's a cornet? Serial Number?
>
>I have a Conn Victor (E27XXX) circa 1964 and its definitely a
>trumpet.
>
>WiCAdam wrote:
>>
>> Well, firstly, it isn't a trumpet, its a cornet. Its the 'Victor' model.
>> The 80A is a very close relative to the one that Bix Beiderbeck played,
>> and Jim Cullum still does play at The Landing in San Antonio...
Alan A. Hobson
the model number are cornets. Trumpets have a "B". The Victors are strange
animals. They look like trumpets but Conn calls them cornets. My guess
would be that they are conical bore instead of cylindrical bore thus they
are technically cornets even though they are trumpet shaped.
-Alan
Jerry Houston wrote in message <3657b...@news.oz.net>...
Dave Bovey
bell to the receiver. It uses a trumpet mouthpiece. I bought the
horn brand new (or so I thought???) and the receiver is the
original. The bell was replaced after some serious damage while
playing in a pep band in community college. But everything else
is original. The horn was sold as a trumpet. The word "Victor" is
on the right hand side of the receiver and the serial number is
stamped vertically on the left side of the #2 valve. The bell has
the Conn engraving marked USA but not Elkhart. But that is NOT
the original bell. So I don't know (or remember) what was on the
original. There are no other identifier like model numbers or
anything like that. The horn is lacquered brass with nickel
plated valve casings. It cost about $300 in 1964 when the student
horns by Bundy, etc. were selling for around $125.
One of the earlier poster suggested that it might be a conical
bore rather cylindrical. I'm not up on all the technical jargon.
I'm assuming that a conical bore means that the inside diameter
of the receiver and leadpipe tapers and that cylindrial bore mean
that the inside diameter is constant. If that's true, is that
change in diameter noticeable? It appears to be cylindrical on
this horn. Is the type of bore really what determines if it is a
trumpet or a cornet?
This whole thread has piqued my curiosity. What basic effects
does the type of bore have on tone?
If I was to describe the tone, I would call it mellow but still
with a tremendous amount of power. Even as an amateur, I'm able
to control the horn in small church and really let it go in an
auditorium during concerts. Many others have remarked about the
clarity and quality of the tone. In the final analysis, I love
the horn! But is it really a cornet??? It sure looks like a
trumpet....
Perhaps this is more than everyone really wanted for this thread
but I would appreciate any further enlightenment anyone could
provide.
Many thanks,
Dave Bovey
WiCAdam wrote:
>
> In the old Conn numbering system, the suffix 'A' identifies
> Cornets, 'B' on the other hand indicates Trumpet, and 'C'
> is Alto horn, "d", horn etc. The 80A is 16 1/2" from right
> edge of the bell to receiver (I just measured mine) If its longer,
> It might be a trumpet with a cornet receiver attached, perhaps
> from some kind of repair in the past.
> Cornet & rumpet mouthpieces ae different, of course, that's
> why different reeivers are needed, the Trumpet ,mpc being
> larger.
>
> Hope this helps
WiCAdam
Jerry Houston
cornets are more short-and-round. But not always. The Olds Mendez cornet
looks almost exactly like a trumpet, but uses a cornet mouthpiece.
Apparently your Conn is another model of that kind.
Whether the horn is long and skinny or short and round depends on how it is
wrapped, i.e., where the bends in the tubing are placed, and that difference
alone isn't enough to make it a cornet versus a trumpet. Whether it is
considered conical or tubular bore depends on how big the mouthpiece is, and
whether there's much taper between the mouthpiece receiver and the valve
cluster.
Trumpet mouthpieces start out bigger. Their shank is larger in diameter,
and the receiver on the leadpipe is correspondingly bigger. Any taper
happens quickly, so that both sides of the tuning slide are usually the same
size. (Some find that the sound quality of their trumpet can be changed by
inserting that slide upside down.)
Cornet mouthpieces start out smaller, both shorter and with a smaller
diameter shank. The receiver on the leadpipe is correspondingly smaller,
and the diameter expands from there up to the valve cluster. It's not at
all unusual for the ends of the tuning slide to be two different sizes, as
the bore is still expanding even that far from the mouthpiece, so it can't
be inserted upside-down.
Lip-vibrated brass instruments can be roughly split into two categories,
based on bore type. Horns have a conical bore, and trumpets have a
cylindrical bore. That means that one is technically correct when calling
his cornet a "horn," but not so when calling his trumpet one. (The word
"cornet" literally means "little horn.) A trombone is a slide trumpet,
although we seldom see one the size of an ordinary Bb trumpet anymore.
(They do exist, though.)
Characteristically, trumpets have more of a cutting edge to their sound than
horns have, a more piercing sound, with more overtones (a "brighter" sound).
Horns have a purer sound, with better controlled overtones (a "darker"
sound).
In a similar oversimplification, horns can be played with a greater dynamic
range without a drastic change in sound quality. That's why a cornet or
flugelhorn sounds different than a trumpet of the same tubing length, and a
trombone sounds different than a baritone horn of the same tubing length.
I'm a (French) horn player who likes all the brass. I enjoy each of the
instruments, and appreciate its own special qualities. It's probably
natural that I would prefer cornets to trumpets, and all things being equal,
I do. I find that mine are freer-blowing, easier to play in tune, and I
find the characteristic cornet sound very pleasant to hear. But please
don't anyone take this message to imply that I'm anti-trumpet (I have four).
Your summary of your instrument's sound, "mellow, but still with a
tremendous amount of power," is certainly consistent with a cornet.
Dave Bovey wrote in message <3659000B...@jetlink.net>...
<snip>
Ed
horn. Mine uses a cornet mpc and the main tuning slide has a smaller
diameter at the top compared to the bottom. My horn has a nice tone and
excellent intonation but is very stuffy (has high back pressure).
The main differences between the cornet and trumpet (in general) are that the
cornet uses a cornet mpc and the trumpet uses a trumpet mpc (obviously) but
also the cornet has a higher percentage of tubing that has a tapered bore. I
think it is commonly quoted that the cornet is 2/3 conical and 1/3 cylindical
and the trumpet is 1/3 conical and 2/3 cylindrical but I don't know how
accurate that is. On trumpets the main tuning slide usually has the same
diameter all the way through.
In article <3659000B...@jetlink.net>, bo...@jetlink.net says...
>
>I just measured my horn. It's about 18 3/4" from the edge of the
>bell to the receiver. It uses a trumpet mouthpiece. I bought the
>horn brand new (or so I thought???) and the receiver is the
>original. The bell was replaced after some serious damage while
>playing in a pep band in community college. But everything else
>is original. The horn was sold as a trumpet. The word "Victor" is
>on the right hand side of the receiver and the serial number is
>stamped vertically on the left side of the #2 valve. The bell has
>the Conn engraving marked USA but not Elkhart. But that is NOT
>the original bell. So I don't know (or remember) what was on the
>original. There are no other identifier like model numbers or
>anything like that. The horn is lacquered brass with nickel
>plated valve casings. It cost about $300 in 1964 when the student
>horns by Bundy, etc. were selling for around $125.
>
>One of the earlier poster suggested that it might be a conical
>bore rather cylindrical. I'm not up on all the technical jargon.
>I'm assuming that a conical bore means that the inside diameter
>of the receiver and leadpipe tapers and that cylindrial bore mean
>that the inside diameter is constant. If that's true, is that
>change in diameter noticeable? It appears to be cylindrical on
>this horn. Is the type of bore really what determines if it is a
>trumpet or a cornet?
>
>This whole thread has piqued my curiosity. What basic effects
>does the type of bore have on tone?
>
>If I was to describe the tone, I would call it mellow but still
>with a tremendous amount of power. Even as an amateur, I'm able
>to control the horn in small church and really let it go in an
>auditorium during concerts. Many others have remarked about the
>clarity and quality of the tone. In the final analysis, I love
>the horn! But is it really a cornet??? It sure looks like a
>trumpet....
>
>Perhaps this is more than everyone really wanted for this thread
>but I would appreciate any further enlightenment anyone could
>provide.
>
>Many thanks,
> Dave Bovey
>
>WiCAdam wrote:
>>
Alan A. Hobson
They were the model 6B #1 bore Victor made from 1955 to at least 1965 and
the model 10B #1 bore Victor with Coprion bell made from 1955-1962. So, he
could actually have a Victor trumpet. (this info from
http://www.whc.net/rjones/conntrump.html )
-Alan
Dave Bovey wrote in message <3659000B...@jetlink.net>...
>I just measured my horn. It's about 18 3/4" from the edge of the
>bell to the receiver. It uses a trumpet mouthpiece. I bought the
>horn brand new (or so I thought???) and the receiver is the
>original. The bell was replaced after some serious damage while
>playing in a pep band in community college. But everything else
>is original. The horn was sold as a trumpet. The word "Victor" is
>on the right hand side of the receiver and the serial number is
>stamped vertically on the left side of the #2 valve. The bell has
>the Conn engraving marked USA but not Elkhart. But that is NOT
>the original bell. So I don't know (or remember) what was on the
>original. There are no other identifier like model numbers or
>anything like that. The horn is lacquered brass with nickel
>plated valve casings. It cost about $300 in 1964 when the student
>horns by Bundy, etc. were selling for around $125.
<snipped>
Dave Bovey
my questions. I'm not sure that it will help me to play any
better. but it is interesting to know some of the technical
details of Conn trumpets and cornets. After all has been said, I
will continue to play for my own enjoyment and hopefully, on
occasion, for the enjoyment of others.
Thanks
Dave Bovey
Simi Valley, CA