Why non-concert pitch instruments?
Bob
similar in that their 1st position tone centers are Bb (concert). Yet music
for the Bb trumpet is not written in concert pitch while the trombone is.
Why aren't non-concert pitch instruments (like the Bb trumpet, sax, etc...)
merely written in concert pitch?
Is there more to the answer than "it's just a historical thing"?
I'm confused (more than usual this time).
Thanks in advance
Stuart Anthony Collidge
The Bb trumpet is not concert pitch, but the C is. The Bb just gets used
more these days. Fingerings across all x number of trumpets (Bb, C, D/Eb,
F, G, A/Bb, any more?) are the same for any given note. A C on a Bb trumpet
is open fingering, a C on an F trumpet is open fingering, the difference is
in the pitch heard (a Bb trumpet sounds as Bb, while the F trumpet sounds as
F). The idea is to make switching between trumpets easier for the trumpet
players. The same applies to all transposing instruments, Eb and Bb
saxophones, Bb, A and Eb clarinets, etc.
In this day and age, the idea has less merit than it used to, what with Bb
being the most used (and taught) trumpet. However, the logistics of
switching international standard notation to a non-transposing system would
be a nightmare. It would have several advantages for teaching, however.
Bit sketchy, please feel free to add more details.
Stuart
Bob wrote in message ...
Josh
I don't know if you are at all familiar with British style brass band, but
all the instruments are written the same way as you have said you think it
should be. All of the instruments, that sound a concert Bb in first
position (open) are written in Bb treble clef (with the exception of Bass
trombone, and I'm not sure why). And all the other instruments are written
to play the same way. If you see a written C you play open, etc.
Apparently this was because of tradition. Every city had a brass band and
the music being written like this allowed members of the bands to switch
instruments effortlessly if they needed to do so. Now, I guess I haven't
really answered your question because I do not know why they got away from
doing things this way. It may have to do with pitched trumpets, clarinets,
etc. But I am not sure. I thought you might be interested in this bit
about brass bands. You can get more information at www.stlbb.org, the
website of the brass band I play in from time to time. If you ever find out
the complete answer to your question, I would be interested in knowing.
Good luck.
Josh
Eric
music is written in "C". Double B flat tubas cet the same music as a C
tuba. Trombone and baritone play bass clef in C, but treble clef
baritone is in B flat.
Eric
mass...@my-deja.com
"Bob" <nimby1_...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> If you compare two instruments like the trumpet and the trombone they're
> similar in that their 1st position tone centers are Bb (concert). Yet music
> for the Bb trumpet is not written in concert pitch while the trombone is.
>
> Why aren't non-concert pitch instruments (like the Bb trumpet, sax, etc...)
> merely written in concert pitch?
>
> Is there more to the answer than "it's just a historical thing"?
>
> I'm confused (more than usual this time).
>
> Thanks in advance
>
that concert pitch is not used is simply because every time we switched
to a different trumpet (i.e., Bb, Eb, A, C or what ever) we would be
required to know a whole new set of fingerings for each trumpet. In
other words, if Bb trumpet parts were now suddenly written in Concert
pitch the note Bb, for example, would not be 1st valve, but would be
open. In fact, for all the the above trumpets the notes Bb would be a
different fingering. Trumpet is challenging enough without that kind of
problem to deal with.
Larry
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Flip Oakes
I think the simplest answer is, if they were all written in concert pitch,
they would all have different fingering systems. You can't have it both
ways.... Otherwise one fingering chart or system fits all, and transpose. Or
write everything the same (concert pitch) and have all different fingering
charts for them. Now that would be a nightmare for 99% of the players.
Sincerely,
Flip Oakes
Flip Oakes “Wild Thing Trumpets”
COME AND HEAR THE DIFFERENCE
http://www.flipoakes.com
"To read what Wild Thing owners say about their horns, click on this"
http://www.flipoakes.com/testimonials.htm
Flip Oakes
1632 Burroughs St.
Oceanside, Ca. 92054-5911
760-722-1501
Bob wrote:
> If you compare two instruments like the trumpet and the trombone they're
> similar in that their 1st position tone centers are Bb (concert). Yet music
> for the Bb trumpet is not written in concert pitch while the trombone is.
>
> Why aren't non-concert pitch instruments (like the Bb trumpet, sax, etc...)
> merely written in concert pitch?
>
> Is there more to the answer than "it's just a historical thing"?
>
> I'm confused (more than usual this time).
>
> Thanks in advance
--
Alan Rouse
It would be slightly larger than an 8-1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. You
would place the sheet music on top of the screen, and it would be
scanned (ok I know, magic occurs here). Then you could view the music
on the screen, and with a simple interface you could transpose the
notes into different keys. Notational items such as dynamics,
phrasing, comments etc would be shown unchanged.
It would need to be able to associate multiple pages with a given
title, and to scroll through the pages for live playing. Enough
storage to handle all music for a 3-hour gig should be reasonable.
There should be a pen interface so you could add and store handwritten
notes.
The screen should be backlit for easy viewing in the dark. Battery
life should be 3-4 hours minimum.
Perhaps some old-scool users might find it necessary to have a printer
interface. Seems like a waste to me however.
Oh, and it needs to have wireless internet browsing capability, useful
when counting rests or when the w@@dw!nds just can't seem to get it
right ;->
Charles Reace
Western classical music tradition were valveless. This meant that you
needed an assortment of trumpets in various keys to be able to play
music in different keys. I believe this probably started
the 'tradition' of trumpets in various keys.
My *guess* as to why some of the lower brass don't have this tradition
is that they didn't enter into common usage in the orchestra until much
later than the horns and trumpets, and by that time valves and
(trombone) slides were in use, removing the need for multiple
instruments with different pitches. Therefore, they just wrote the bass
parts in concert pitch. (I'm not sure about the Eb tuba though, is
written in concert pitch too, or is it transposed?)
Now, the question I can't even guess at an answer right now is, why are
those bass clef instruments Bb pitched, and not C (or F# for that
matter)? Perhaps this is an influence from the military bands, which
seem to have - for whatever reason - settled on the Bb/Eb domain?
And just to confuse matters, most French horn players play double horns
with a trigger that transposes them from F horns to Bb horns, normally
playing in F in the lower octave or 2, and switching mid-stream to Bb
for the upper register - but they read entirely in F and just change
the fingerings accordingly at the crossover point. (I guess the bass
trombone is similar when you engage its valve.)
Ain't music fun?
In article <Fyba5.9017$c5.2...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
> >If you compare two instruments like the trumpet and the trombone
they're
> >similar in that their 1st position tone centers are Bb (concert).
Yet music
> >for the Bb trumpet is not written in concert pitch while the
trombone is.
> >
> >Why aren't non-concert pitch instruments (like the Bb trumpet, sax,
etc...)
> >merely written in concert pitch?
> >
> >Is there more to the answer than "it's just a historical thing"?
> >
> >I'm confused (more than usual this time).
> >
> >Thanks in advance
> >
> >
>
>
--
Charles Reace (creace AT net-gate.com)
"Lotteries are taxes on people with poor math skills."
Ralph Coolbaugh
I use it all the time for transposition. Scan it in. Do the conversion.
Save it in NIFF format, and load it into LIME for transposition and
printing.
Alan Rouse <alan...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8kcrvm$qea$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Alan Rouse
> It has been done!
Only by using a desktop computer with two or three different software
packages, then printing out the results on paper. Not quite what I'm
looking for...
Still, what software are you using and what does it cost?
I've seen information about MidiScan ($300) and PianoScan ($100). I
am under the impression that the output of these programs is a midi
file, which means you lose any comments, dynamic & tempo notation,
rehearsal numbers, etc... And I'm skeptical about such things as
repeats, 1x tacet, mute notations, stylistic comments, etc.... What I
want is software that leaves the music as a graphics file, recognizes
and removes the notes, then overlays the staff with transposed notes in
the key of choice. This would leave all notations etc intact, without
having to interpret and re-render every detail on the page.
Glenn
Stuart Anthony Collidge
>when counting rests or when the w@@dw!nds just can't seem to get it
>right ;->
Stuart Anthony Collidge
Eric wrote in message <39696E3D...@home.com>...
>Trombone and baritone play bass clef in C, but treble clef
>baritone is in B flat.
Baritone is more of a brass band instrument, and they've always been a bit
funny
Stuart Anthony Collidge
Stuart Anthony Collidge wrote in message ...
>I'll have a crack at this one, someone catch me if I stumble over
something.
>
>The Bb trumpet is not concert pitch, but the C is. The Bb just gets used
>more these days. Fingerings across all x number of trumpets (Bb, C, D/Eb,
>F, G, A/Bb, any more?) are the same for any given note. A C on a Bb
trumpet
>is open fingering, a C on an F trumpet is open fingering, the difference is
>in the pitch heard (a Bb trumpet sounds as Bb, while the F trumpet sounds
as
>F). The idea is to make switching between trumpets easier for the trumpet
>players. The same applies to all transposing instruments, Eb and Bb
>saxophones, Bb, A and Eb clarinets, etc.
have to read scores in fifteen different keys!
>In this day and age, the idea has less merit than it used to, what with Bb
>being the most used (and taught) trumpet. However, the logistics of
>switching international standard notation to a non-transposing system would
>be a nightmare. It would have several advantages for teaching, however.
>
>Bit sketchy, please feel free to add more details.
>Stuart
>
For myself, I don't think it is such a big issue learning different
fingerings for different trumpets. The combination of valves still works
the same, it is just set on a different note for each horn. And let's face
it, most players who are likely to need to play four horns in different keys
are going to have reasonably good sight transposition skills anyway. A bit
of practice and you'd be over it.
As I mentioned, changing over to a non-transposing system would have a lot
of advantages for teaching (how do you explain to primary school kids why
the girl on sax plays a G while the guy on horn plays an F, while the
trombone player plays a Bb?) as you wouldn't have several different notes to
read and everybody knows what notes they are going to have (the same as
everyone else). But other advantages exist. The same music is readable by
everyone, communication between players is easier (no need for mental
transposition, "oh yeah it's just D Eb F G Ab, oh sh*t, E F G A Bb) and it
makes a lot more sense. As well as making it easier for
composers/arrangers/conductors/musical directors/etc.
Josh
course
learn to transpose