Valve Alignment?
Joe/Bill Meador
180ML with valves that make a lot of noise, and the second one tends to
be harder to push down than the other two, no matter how much I clean
them. If valve alignment is worth the investment, where would be a good
place to get it done? Any helpful information would be appreciated.
Joe Meador
bmeador.pdial.interpath.net
Christopher
garage once told me my 1980 Honda needed that, just before the engine
went kaflooey.
CC
In article <4d0vgv$4...@redstone.interpath.net>,
Charlie Mayne
> Does anybody know how well valve alignment works? I have a Bach Strad
> 180ML with valves that make a lot of noise, ...
The alignment is to get the holes in the valves to line up more accurately
with the holes in the valve casing. It makes the horn play "smoother" because
it reduces the sharp edges and bumps in the air column, which can disrupt the
vibration if it is at a nodal pressure point. That's the theory anyway.
I've played a few horns that have been "aligned" and they do play smooth.
I didn't play them before the alignment, though. I believe it could help
a lot if the horn does not already have good alignemnt. A Bach Strad probably
doesn't have very good alignment straight from the factory. That is just a
characteristic of less expensive horns. "Hand made" horns like Blackburn
or Callet or Kanstul or Monette are probably already very well aligned to
start out with.
--
Charlie Mayne | Motorola Incorporated
char...@pets.sps.mot.com | Microprocessor Products Group
| Austin, Texas 78735-8598
"I am concerned about my memory. But, for the life of me, I can't recall why."
Robert Eye
"Valve alignment" usually referrs to aligning the holes in the valves with the
openings in the valve casing (vertically and rotationally) - this reduces
interferrence withe the air stream as you blow through the horn. I don't know
about costs, but many repair shops do this. The "inventor" of valve alignment
is Bob Reeves in the LA area - he has a web site, but I don't have the URL
available (try a search engine, like Yahoo, using the subject "brass
mouthpieces") and I don't know what he charges (I have heard it's high compared
to other places, but he has a lot of $ invested in equipment that other placed
don't have). The web site has a pretty good explanation of the process and
reasons for same.
It sounds to me like you have a valve DAMAGE problem, where a casing and/or
valve has been dented , bent, or nicked. A good brass repair shop can check
this out for you and the cost should not be prohibitive.
Bob Eye
Christopher
have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No manufacturer
would release a horn that way, especially Bach. Are we talking about
some sort of microscopic alignment here? What am I missing?
CC
In article <charliem.821376585@talos4>,
Richard M. Stuemke
Joe/Bill Meador (bmeador.pdial.interpath.net) writes:
> Does anybody know how well valve alignment works? I have a Bach Strad
> be harder to push down than the other two, no matter how much I clean
> them. If valve alignment is worth the investment, where would be a good
> place to get it done? Any helpful information would be appreciated.
>
> Joe Meador
> bmeador.pdial.interpath.net
>
I've played 2 Bach Strads (a L and ML bore) and both of them had noisey
valves. I wonder if this is a characteristic of the horns? Considering
putting in new valve springs to see if this makes any difference. Not
sure that an alignment would get rid of the noise though.......Comments
please.
--
/////////////////
Rich Stuemke
DinoCorps '68 - '75
Robert Eye
You might try putting a LITTLE tuning slide grease on the inside of the valve
(where the spring resides) on the wall. This may eliminate any scraping sound
as the valve is used. I recall that my Bach had noisy valves also, but it's
been a while since I had it (22 years) and my recollection may be off. I think
the rubber inserts on the top of the valve caps (not the valve buttons) may
also contribute; most of the horns that have felt where the button meets the
cap don't seem to make noise there (Schilke, Yamaha, Bange, etc.).
Bob Eye
R. Rex Denton
> Okay, I'll bite. Just what is valve alignment? I think a disreputable
> garage once told me my 1980 Honda needed that, just before the engine
> went kaflooey.
>
> CC
>
> In article <4d0vgv$4...@redstone.interpath.net>,
> Joe/Bill Meador <bmeador.pdial.interpath.net> wrote:
> > Does anybody know how well valve alignment works? I have a Bach Strad
> >180ML with valves that make a lot of noise, and the second one tends to
> >be harder to push down than the other two, no matter how much I clean
> >them. If valve alignment is worth the investment, where would be a good
> >place to get it done? Any helpful information would be appreciated.
> >
> >Joe Meador
> >bmeador.pdial.interpath.net
> >
>
>
A valve alignment is a procedure where the holes of the trumpet/flugel
are lined up with the holes in the valve casings and the slides. On
many older or highly used instruments, the felt pads under the caps
(both under the valve casing screw- =thething you undo to oil and on top
of the cap as well) compress, causing the valve lash and resting registration
to deviate from the true holes. In my experience, this seems to cause a loss
of the focus of the note being played, mostly due to the spit that collects at
the lip of this deviation. (Play for awhile and remove the 2nd valve slide
and blow while flicking the 2nd-3rd valve combo. If mucho spittle flies out,
you may need an alignment, or you drool a lot while playing).
Most of the modern instruments are pretty well aligned, but I've a Bach
Mt Vernon large bore that actually has a slightly twisted valve alignment.
You can see the alignment of the pushed valves by looking down the pulled
slide holes while pushing the valves. If they godown too far, the top pads
need replacing. The resting position must be measured, as you can't see in
there (obviously) but you can get an idea of the positionby removing the valve
and turning the 2nd valveso that the resting position hole faces the open
second slide hole and comparing this position with the valve casing tube
between the valves. Obviously, you have to push the valve to where it would
normally rest, so the valve caps should all be the same level.
Some people do this for a charge , but your garden variety brass
repairman ought to be able to do it, if he knows what he is doing.
Incidentally, some respectable players that I've spoken with say
that these imperfections contribute to the "character" of the instrument...
Rex
David Buxton
to clean your valves without success. Before you resort to something
drastic, try and do a better job of cleaning. There have been times when
I have had a sluggish valve and cleaning it did not solve the problem.
When I do a thorough job of cleaning the entire trumpet I always end up
with smooth operating valves again. You want to use a trumpet cleaning
brush to scrub out the entire trumpet and rinse it clean. Use a mild
soap when cleaning out the cylinders and their openings as well as the
pistons and their openings. You want clean off all oil and scum
residues. A little bit of lube from your slides, working back to the
valves, can do wonders to slow them down.
Thoroughly rinse all components and then run water through the assembled
trumpet working the valves. Then blow out the water, dry it off with a
towel. When it is reasonably dried out, lube the slides and oil the
valves. Works for me every time.
Do the same thing on just the cylinders and pistons and you may be
somewhat successful. Give your trumpet the full treatment and it works
every time for me. If that does not work, then you do have serious
problems with your valves.
Robert Eye
>I'm really confused here. I can't believe that my bach Strad. doesn't
>have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No manufacturer
>would release a horn that way, especially Bach. Are we talking about
>some sort of microscopic alignment here? What am I missing?
>
>CC
>
Attention to detail takes a back seat when you are producing high volume of
anything. "Is it good enough for the market" is the primary concern. "Bach" -
Selmer, actually - cannot sell horns to meet demand at the price they charge
and make a profit if every horn is hand fitted to the nth degree by master
craftsmen - the cost would just be too high. They play well enough from the
factory with the alignment they have (it's not THAT bad), and re-tooling to get
the extra few 0.001" in alignment would be cost prohibitive, IMHO. According
to Forbes' magazine, Bach has a **70%** market share; if they hand fit horns
they would have to either keep the price the same and lose profit (fat chance)
or charge a lot more to be profitable and would lose market share. Most other
companies that make horns do the same (Yamaha, Getzen, etc.) but, IMHO, they do
their jigging a little more precisely and don't have as much mis-alignment. I
believe Schilke hand fits their valves to the casing openings, and their horns
ARE more expensive. I know that just selecting the right felts for the valves
on my Benge makes a difference; I usually sight down the tube holes and depress
the valve; if I still see some of the rim around the valve hole in the tube
hole, I try a different felt. But, felts and springs wear out, you clean the
horn, the valve and guide keys wear, and ... they need to be checked again.
Bob Reeves makes his "felts" out of some kind of material that he says lasts
anywhere from 3-10 years, depending on use - they apparently don't compress and
wear like regular felt. He also keeps a record of the horns alignment so that
you can order new "felts" if you need them. Many pros will not play a horn
that has not had a custom alignment, many others don't seem to care. The
choice is yours.
Bach makes a good horn; there are better, IMHO, for about the same price. But
they are definitely not the end-all-be-all of trumpet design or manufacturing
expertise.
Bob Eye
Roger Mann
Robert Eye
>I'm really confused here. I can't believe that my bach Strad. doesn't
>have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No manufacturer
>would release a horn that way, especially Bach. Are we talking about
>some sort of microscopic alignment here? What am I missing?
>
>CC
>
Depends on your definition of "microscopic." Valves that are out just a few
0.001" can cause a fair amount of turbulence in the air stream. Production
horns (Bach, etc.) may or may not exhibit this "mis-alignment." Horns such as
Schilke, Blackburn, Edwards, etc., most likely have more attention paid to the
valve alignment than "production" horns, but there is no guarantee even here.
Plus there is the wear factor on felts, casing guides, etc., that cause the
valves to go out of alignment.
Bob Eye
Richard M. Stuemke
> I'm really confused here. I can't believe that my bach Strad. doesn't
> have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No manufacturer
> would release a horn that way, especially Bach. Are we talking about
> some sort of microscopic alignment here? What am I missing?
>
> CC
>
>
>
>
What we are talking about is 1000ths of and inch in mis-alignment.
Reading the Doc Severenson interview on the Trupet Player Online, he
comments how new machine made horns just do not have the quality of a old
handmade horn. These 1000ths of an inch CAN make a difference. For
example the differenct between a medium large bore and large bore is
usually about .005" (5/1000ths of an inch).
This brings up something along these lines that I have been thinking about....
I have recently received catalogs from all of the major trumpet
manufacturers in onder to bring myself up to date on what is available.
After reading all of these catalogs, which make them all sound as God's
gift to the trumpet playing community, I am wondering how you readers
would rate these horns on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being bad and 10 being good.
So I guess I will take a poll. Just post your opinions here for all to read.
Consider how well made, tone, playablility, etc (DO NO CONSIDER COST!)
Please rate the following (consider these all professional grade
trumpets/cornets/flugelhorns) -
Bach Strad -
Yamaha -
Getzen -
Kanstul -
Stomvi -
Lawler -
Selmer -
King -
Benge -
Martin -
Callet -
Calichicco -
Holton -
Monette -
Olds -
Besson -
(others - please add)
Here are my ratings from what limited exposure I have had
Bach Strad - 7
Lawler - 9 (2nd hand opinion)
Benge - 8 (pre-UMI)
Holton - 5
Olds - 10
Please take the time to respond as I am very interested in this information.
--
/////////////////
Rich Stuemke
laudate eum in clangore bucinae
S.R.O. Nathan
My Bach Strad, which is only about three years old has slightly noisy
valves. They are not so loud to be obtrusive while playing, but you can
hear them in a quiet room. I think it's just something you have to live
with if you've got one of these horns. Using good valve oil helps.
Something to watch out for is on the valves themselves. If you look at
the top of the valve, it looks something a little bit like this (from
memory). The metal shaft comes out of the top, and the main valve part is
below. In between there is a plastic washer with two little wings on it.
(This washer makes sure you put the valves in the right way round). If
the washer is not centred very carefully, the valves can seem noiser and
slower.
| |
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This bit ->>>> -| |-
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I hope this means something!!
Steve
ROGER PAULSON
?>the factory. That is just a characteristic of less expensive horns.
?>"Hand made" horns like Blackburn or Callet or Kanstul or Monette are
?>probably already very well aligned to start out with.
C>I'm really confused here. I can't believe that my bach Strad. doesn't
C>have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No
C>manufacturer would release a horn that way, especially Bach.
I agree Charlie. I showed that statement to both my instructor, and the
local Bach distributer. They both got some amusement out of it. :)
I have a Bach TR200S, and the valve action is excellent.
The gentleman with the sticky valves should just take it back to Bach,
and not depend on unqualified opinions such as the one above.
* CMPQwk 1.42 401 *
A. Grant
>Use a mild
>soap when cleaning out the cylinders and their openings as well as the
>pistons and their openings. You want clean off all oil and scum
>residues.
I have met people who use toothpaste for valves because of its
very mild abrasive effect. Is this a good idea?
Robert Eye
First, the reply to sent the horn back to Bach is sound advice. A local repair
tech may be able to remedy the problem, as well.
I am glad that hte valve action on your Bach horn is excellent. The valve
action on the Bach Strad I used to own was also very good. However, I have
read several posts on this news group and on TPIN (Trumpet Players'
International Network) from teachers who had students with Bach student models
that had bad valve problems that could NOT be repaired - I do not know the
outcomes of these situations. Sometimes other horns have these problems as
well.
If Bach (and other) horns were so well built that they did not need alignment,
then folks like Bob Reeves and Bob Malone would not be in business. I am sure
that they can tell you the degree of mis-alignment seen in many makes of horn
(Reeves' web site states that he has seen mis-alignments from 0.020" up to as
much as 0.150" - I would hope that this is not a standard number!). Doc
Severinsen has been quoted as saying that he would not play a horn that has not
been aligned by Bob Revees. This could be a plug for Reeves, but, in reading
the newspaper article about Dave Monette that discussed his working with Doc
several years ago, I believe that Doc would not play a stock horn unless it had
been thououghtly gone over by Monette, Reeves, or with whomever he is working
at
present (BTW as I recall, Doc was looking for OLD Bachs at the time - not
Selmer-made Bachs, but Bachs made in either NY or Mt Vernon that were made when
Vincent Bach still oversaw operations, and he was having them altered). Other
players could care less about alignment. Noting the recent Windplayer article
about studio trumpet players, many have had Malone conversions done on their
Bachs; I am sure that they can tell the difference.
I wonder how many alignments Reeves (and others) do on Bachs as opposed to
other makes. Since Bach has about a 70% market share (Forbes' magazine, 1995),
parhaps 70% of the alignamnts are done on them - then again, if they are so
well made perhaps they are lower percentage wise in alignments than they are in
the overall trumpet population.
Bob Eye
Robert Eye
random in size. It also varies by the brand of toothpaste; some contain more
abrasives and some have larger particle sizes than others. If you do this too
often (I never have had to in seven years of consistent playing) you can open
up the gap between the valve and the cylinder wall, which causes loss of
compression (air leakage) and drop in sound quality. Then you have to go to
the repair tech and give him/her your sob story and they charge you $ to fix
what was not likely broken ion the first place. If you really do have a valve
problem that requires honing, have a tech check it out and do it; they use grit
of very fine and consistent sized partiucles that is made specifically for
lapping valves on musical instruments. Usually, unless you are abusive to your
horn, or the horn has been involved in some sort of mechanical mishap, you
should never NEED to use a grit to lap the valves. A good THOROUGH cleaning
should be all that is needed.
Bob Eye
Robert L. Carroll
>
> Does anybody know how well valve alignment works? I have a Bach Strad
> 180ML with valves that make a lot of noise, and the second one tends to
> be harder to push down than the other two, no matter how much I clean
> them. If valve alignment is worth the investment, where would be a good
> place to get it done? Any helpful information would be appreciated.
>
> Joe Meador
> bmeador.pdial.interpath.net
If your first and third valves are easier to push than your second,
valve alienment may not be the only reason. If you don't use the tip of
your fingers when fingering, the flat part of your finger pushes the
valves against the valve case,scratching and or bending the valve. The
only way to find out is to see a good repair....woman.
bc
Charlie Mayne
> ?>A Bach Strad probably doesn't have very good alignment straight from
> ?>the factory. That is just a characteristic of less expensive horns.
> ?>"Hand made" horns like Blackburn or Callet or Kanstul or Monette are
> ?>probably already very well aligned to start out with.
>C>I'm really confused here. I can't believe that my bach Strad. doesn't
>C>have the holes of the valves lined up with the casings. No
>C>manufacturer would release a horn that way, especially Bach.
Think again. It just takes too much technician time to get them to align.
It is a matter of personal decesion about whether or not it is worth the
money to have somebody put in the time to align the valves.
>I agree Charlie. I showed that statement to both my instructor, and the
>local Bach distributer. They both got some amusement out of it. :)
I'm not sure what part you are agreeing with.
I'm the Charlie that wrote "A Bach Strad probably doesn't ...", which I stand by.
Were they amused by what I wrote or by the response: "I can't believe that ..." part?
On every "non aligned" Bach Strad I've ever seen, you can look into the second valve tube and
push the valve and see that it doesn't line up. If you can see it with your eye, it is probably
at least 0.010" out of alignment. How much that will affect the playing, I can't say.
Charlie Mayne
>Depends on your definition of "microscopic." Valves that are out just a few
>0.001" can cause a fair amount of turbulence in the air stream.
I don't think it is turbulence in the air stream that is the problem. The air just isn't
moving that fast down in the horn for laminar/turbulent flow to be an issue. It is
my understanding that the sound wave is what is being affected. Nodes and antinodes and
all of that stuff. It is similar to standing waves in a river. The water is moving, but
the wave stays in the same place. You can see it just downstream from a big rock or a
waterfall or something. Playing a note will put the air column in vibration. The pattern of
vibration (nodes & antinodes) will stay at the same place as the air goes through the horn.
Something in the air column (e.g., glob of solder, change in diameter of the tube, a valve
not in alignment, edge of the tuning slide tube, etc.) can change the vibration pattern and
affect the tone and pitch and response. Many people believe that the weight and other
properties of the material at the nodal pressure points will affect things as well. That is
the theory behind such design features as the "Megatone" mouthpiece, heavy/light wall
construction, where the braces are placed, plating, annealing, cryogenic freezing, etc.
>Production
>horns (Bach, etc.) may or may not exhibit this "mis-alignment." Horns such as
>Schilke, Blackburn, Edwards, etc., most likely have more attention paid to the
>valve alignment than "production" horns, but there is no guarantee even here.
>Plus there is the wear factor on felts, casing guides, etc., that cause the
>valves to go out of alignment.
>Bob Eye
--