Does Bb tuning mean a Bb = C? Help!
Carl Dershem
: I have another question... When an instrument is designated as,
: say, being in 'Bb' (as is my cornet), does that mean that playing a Bb on
: that instrument actually equals a concert 'C' note? Or is it a (440hz)
: 'A'?
: I've heard both, and at least one must be wrong!
:
When you play a "C" on your trumpet or cornet, it sounds as a concert
B-flat. Our b-flat is their a-flat.
Keith DeLong
: say, being in 'Bb' (as is my cornet), does that mean that playing a Bb on
: that instrument actually equals a concert 'C' note? Or is it a (440hz)
: 'A'?
: I've heard both, and at least one must be wrong!
I think the point of view is just the opposite, :) When you play a what is
called a 'C' on a Bb instrument, it actually plays a Bb.
--Keith
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith DeLong Phone: 517-686-9536 <-- NEW Number
Delta College Email: Keith_...@delta.edu
University Center, MI 48710 Home: http://www.delta.edu/~keith
Laurence C. Booz
> say, being in 'Bb' (as is my cornet), does that mean that playing a Bb on
> that instrument actually equals a concert 'C' note? Or is it a (440hz)
> 'A'?
> I've heard both, and at least one must be wrong!
>
>
>
> *Michael the beginning musician*
Here it is: the truth. This is what will tell you the transpostion of any
instrument.
When an instrument is said to be pitched in a certain key, that means that
when that instrument plays its C, it sounds as the note the instrument is
pitched in on a concert key instrument, such as a piano.
For example, you're holding a Bb trumpet, and I sitting at a piano. That
means that when you play your C, its my Bb on the piano.
You've got a G trumpet. When you play your C, it sounds as my G.
You've got an F# piccolo rotor valve trombone with the special Db
attachment. You play a your C, it sounds as my F#.
It's that simple. But it's confusing until you know it.
Bob Shuster
(Laurence C. Booz) wrote:
> Here it is: the truth. This is what will tell you the transpostion of any
> instrument.
>
> When an instrument is said to be pitched in a certain key, that means that
> when that instrument plays its C, it sounds as the note the instrument is
> pitched in on a concert key instrument, such as a piano.
>
> For example, you're holding a Bb trumpet, and I sitting at a piano. That
> means that when you play your C, its my Bb on the piano.
>
> You've got a G trumpet. When you play your C, it sounds as my G.
>
> You've got an F# piccolo rotor valve trombone with the special Db
> attachment. You play a your C, it sounds as my F#.
Except of course for certain instruments that don't follow that rule. A
trombone is a Bb instrument, but it is non-transposing, therefore a Bb on
a trombone is a concert Bb. Same with baritone horn, except with more
strangeness. If the Bb baritone horn is reading treble clef, then it is a
tranposing Bb instrument, and if it plays it's written C, it is the same
as a concert Bb. However if you read bass clef, it is a non-transposing
Bb instrument and if a written C is played, then you hear a concert C.
And of course if a trombone player is reading treble clef, it is *non*
transposing.
Of course on trumpet, as far as I know, Mr. Booz's assessment is 100%
correct! :) - Bob
--
= = = /| Bob Shuster |\ = = =
[>----|-|-|-----/ | Composer/Arranger/Copyist/MIDI & | \-----|-|-|----<]
(___|_|_|____)\ | Computer Consultant (215-927-4928) | /(____|_|_|___)
" " " \| (& trumpet!) (rshu...@netaxs.com) |/ " " "
URL - http://www.netaxs.com/~rshuster
John DeCarli
Mmic...@utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (JAZZ) wrote:
> I have another question... When an instrument is designated as,
> say, being in 'Bb' (as is my cornet), does that mean that playing a Bb on
> that instrument actually equals a concert 'C' note? Or is it a (440hz)
> 'A'?
> I've heard both, and at least one must be wrong!
Actually, they're both wrong, but one is almost right. When you play a
C on the (Bb) trumpet, it is the same as a Bb on the piano (concert 'Bb').
So a (440 hz) concert A would be a B on the trumpet.
John
--
John DeCarli Opinions disavowed by TRW, Inc.
john_d...@smtp.rc.trw.com
Mitch Collinsworth
>Except of course for certain instruments that don't follow that rule. A
>trombone is a Bb instrument, but it is non-transposing, therefore a Bb on
>a trombone is a concert Bb. Same with baritone horn, except with more
>strangeness. If the Bb baritone horn is reading treble clef, then it is a
>tranposing Bb instrument, and if it plays it's written C, it is the same
>as a concert Bb. However if you read bass clef, it is a non-transposing
>Bb instrument and if a written C is played, then you hear a concert C.
>And of course if a trombone player is reading treble clef, it is *non*
>transposing.
Waaahhhh!!
What's all this non-transposing stuff supposed to mean? I understand
the baritone horn. We had those in the school band and I eventually
figured out that the bass clef reading players and the treble clef
reading players simply called the same notes by different names. In
fact the treble clef players' notes matched the cornet/trumpet players'
notes, and I think the bass clef player's notes matched the tubas'
notes. So why isn't the treble clef baritone called a Bb instrument and
the bass clef baritone called a C instrument? Their C *is* a concert C,
no?
Moving on to trombone: *What*? Why is the trombone a Bb instrument? If
their Bb is a concert Bb and it's played in the 1st position (I think),
then how in the world does it get labelled a Bb instrument?
Something is telling me that either a) the key of the instrument isn't
assigned based on how it's music is written, or b) Bob Shuster is nuts.
(Hey, you mess with with something I thought I understood for the last
25 years and yeah, I just might challenge you for more data! :-)
-Mitch
P.S. OK, as long as I'm jumping into this one I guess I might as well
get the full scoop on a related issue. One thing I have never
understood (never even thought I understood) is what is a BBb tuba?
That doesn't even appear to make sense!
Mitch Collinsworth
OK, now I get it. The pitch of the instrument is determined by it's
fundamental pitch, with no valves or slides engaged. Transposing or
non-transposing just indicates whether the music is written to the same
pitch as the instrument will sound or not.
Now about those tubas...
I still don't understand why a Bb pitched tuba is called BBb and not Bb.
What's the extra B mean? Bubba? :-) And now we have a CC tuba that is
pitched in C. Why isn't it called C tuba?
Also, if I understand your description correctly, the student switching
from BBb tuba to CC tuba will have to learn a whole new set of
fingerings. That seems silly. Why not just standardize on one set and
write one instrument or the other as transposing? Thinking a little
more, I suppose the answer might be so that all tubas are written the
same and the player just has to know how to play that note on the
instrument he's currently holding. This would allow both types to play
in the same band. I suppose it's no worse than expecting trumpet
players to be able to transpose all sorts of bizarre combinations. Were
the tuba rules by chance written by an angry trumpet player??
-Mitch
Laurence C. Booz
about "them basses". Here is the transposition of transposing instruments,
Which I posted earlier.
In article <lcb5-16079...@tsppp6.cac.psu.edu>, lc...@psu.edu
(Laurence C. Booz) wrote:
> Here it is: the truth. This is what will tell you the transpostion of any
> instrument.
>
> When an instrument is said to be pitched in a certain key, that means that
> when that instrument plays its C, it sounds as the note the instrument is
> pitched in on a concert key instrument, such as a piano.
>
> For example, you're holding a Bb trumpet, and I sitting at a piano. That
> means that when you play your C, its my Bb on the piano.
>
> You've got a G trumpet. When you play your C, it sounds as my G.
>
> You've got an F# piccolo rotor valve trombone with the special Db
> attachment. You play a your C, it sounds as my F#.
Now, here's the deal with low brass, which Eric Boyd posted.
>
> I begin student teaching band in two weeks so I decided to look up these
> answers. Here they are straight out of my Music Ed textbook "The Teaching of
> Instrumental Music" by Richard Colwell and Thomas Goolsby.
>
> THE TROMBONE - The 'bone is a B-flat instrument. This means the instruments
> fundamental pitch is concert Bb. The open note (note in first position) is
> concert Bb. However the 'bone is not a transposing instrument. The 'bone
> sounds the same notes that are written as opposed to the Bb trumpet which is
> also a Bb instrument with a fundamental pitch is concert Bb but the trumpet
> sounds a Major 2nd below (1 step) written pitch. To obtain a sounding Bb on
> trumpet the player must play written C.
>
> BARITONE/EUPHONIUM - To begin with, the baritone and euphonium are different
> instruments. However for our purposes we will treat them as identical. The
> baritone is by nature a bass instrument and all seroius players should read
> bass clef. The baritone is like the trombone. It is a Bb, non-transposing
> instrument. The open note is Bb. A written Bb sounds a concert Bb
>
> Now in order supplement the baritone ranks and to give frustrated trumpet
> players a different but similar instrument inwhich they might have more
> success, teachers began switching trumpet players to baritone. Having basic
> technique established, the major frustration for these players was
switching to
> bass clef. Somebody came up with the idea to transpose the baritone part to
> look like a trumpet part. This involved putting it in the treble clef and
> placing the written notes up a major second (1 step). So the result is that
> the treble clef parts sound down a major ninth. That is an octav and a step.
> A written middle C for treble clef baritone sounds a second line Bb in
the Bass
> clef.
>
> TUBA - The most common instrument seen is the BBb tuba. This instrument is
> like the 'bone and baritone but sounds an octave below them. (Hence its larger
> size,) The BBb tube is a Bb instrument with a fundemental (OPEN) note of Bb,
> The tuba is not transposing so the tuba sounds the same pitch that was
written.
>
> Now when a student goes to college for more serious study they usually
begin to
> use the CC tuba which is a C instrument with a fundemantal pitch of concert C.
> It is still a non-transposing instrument so when the players plays a written C
> or Bb or L double sharp...that the pitch, the whole pitch and nothing but the
> pitch coming out of the horn.
>
> Whew - I haven't wrote anything like that since my Brass Methods final.
So combine what a couple people said and you've got the answers. But I
know it's all in vain. I know that someone will follow up and we'll have
to go around again. I hate transpostion.
Aaron Booz
Philip D. Rosas
are BBb tubas, BBb? I believe the answer is specific octave notation. Middle
C is given the designation c'. Increasing: third space, treble clef=c''; an
8va above that=c'''....Decreasing: second space, bass clef=C; an 8vb below=CC
(fundamental for a CC tuba), another whole step gives you BBb, the BBb tuba
fundamental.
My two cents,
Philip D. Rosas,
Clarinet/Trumpet major
Phi Mu Alpha President, Nu Pi
Central Michigan University
ecb...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
OK - HERE IS THE ANSWERS.
I hope this helps, if there are any questions, feel free to E-Mail me.
Eric Boyd
ECB...@MIAVX1.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Mitch Collinsworth
>Transposition - It's not my favorite either. One question still remains, why
>are BBb tubas, BBb?
Yeah, I'm still waiting for that answer, too...
>I believe the answer is specific octave notation. Middle
>C is given the designation c'. Increasing: third space, treble clef=c''; an
>8va above that=c'''....Decreasing: second space, bass clef=C; an 8vb below=CC
>(fundamental for a CC tuba), another whole step gives you BBb, the BBb tuba
>fundamental.
I see two problems with this theory.
1) It doesn't explain why both the trumpet and the trombone are Bb
instruments, since they're an octave apart.
2) If I understood the earlier discussion about overtones correctly
(and actually I think there were contradicting opinions on this),
the fundamental for the tuba is an octave lower than that. (Didn't
we decide the fundamental is the same as the pedal tone?)
-Mitch
-Mitch
Steve Hawley
When you play the lowest note with no valves down or in first position
on a slide horn, you are playing either the first harmonic or the
fundamental. Most trumpets will give you the first harmonic.
The pitch of this note will determine the key the instrument is in.
For trombone, baritone, the most common trumpets and flugel horn, this
is Bb.
Now we come to the notational problem: how should we write out the music
for the instrument?
We could write it out in "concert" key. This would mean that if a piece
is in D major, the trumpet part would be written in D Major. If you saw
an A on the staff and had a Bb trumpet, you would play this note fingered
with the second valve. If you had a D trumpet, you would play this note
fingered open.
In practice, this is how trombone music and Baritone BC (bass clef)
and (I think) tuba is written.
We could also write music out so that the music key is adjusted to match
that of the instrument. This means that a piece written in D major
would be notated for a Bb instrument in the key of E. The A mentioned
before would actually be written as a B and fingered with second valve.
Music for trumpet and baritone treble clef are written this way.
Why write the music like this? Well, I don't know for sure, but the
obvious reason is that if you switch between instruments in the same
family you would prefer to be able to read the music for it right
away without having to transpose or learn new fingerings.
Some people have a knack for transposition (my teacher taught me to
transpose while sight-reading - a great skill to have), some don't.
As a concession to those who don't, it is easier to switch instruments
without having to transpose.
Now what about the baritone? You find music for it written in concert key
in bass clef and in the transposed key in treble clef. Why? Easy - the
bass clef version is typically for trombonists or other low brass players
to switch to baritone for the bass clef part and for trumpet players to
switch to the treble clef part.
--
Steve Hawley
haw...@adobe.com
--
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I
have no grasp of it whatsoever." -Baron Munchausen
Rick Henderson
fifths to transpose. If your circle of fifths has sharps to the right
(as all savvy musicians will!) you will note that the tuning note of
God's instrument (one to many Maynard concerts) is at the top. Two to
your left is the famous Bb. If you take any concert key and move two
to the right you have the key for Bb instruments, trumpets, tenors,
etc. If you have the key for trumpets and want the concert key go two
to the left. Pretty easy, no? To make it more fun let's throw in
those alto saxes which are Eb instruments. They tune (in a band
anyway) on a G which is one to the right of our C soooo... you guessed
it. Go three to the right to find their pitch from a concert pitch.
More likely you'll be trying to find your key from their music.
Trumpets are one to the left. And if you don't know your circle of
fifths, well learn it!! You'll need it.
Have fun.
Rick Henderson
Joshua Miller
reason being, because then you'll never forget.
josh