Sticking valve in old Getzen...
D. Michael McIntyre
in another post.
The finish is gone, but the valves seem to be in pretty good shape, as
far as I can tell (I'm a rank novice whose only instructor is a wife
who played trumpet 15 years ago, and she's not very mechanically
inclined). There's no corrosion on any of the internal parts, and the
plating is intact.
I cleaned the instrument thoroughly inside and out, and went through
the valve parts. Everything seems to be in order, but the #2 valve
just isn't very dependable. I've put gobs of valve oil both on the
cylinder wall and the piston body itself (after first cleaning and
drying the parts), and I can't get reliable action out of this valve.
It behaves some of the time, but it sticks at random intervals,
popping up very slowly.
The only thought I have at this point is to replace the springs. They
seem weak, but I've never had a trumpet before, and I don't know how
strong they're supposed to be. The other two valves were also
sluggish until this last treatment. Now they snap right up.
Does it seem likely that the springs would have worn out somewhat
after 30 years sitting in a closet, or is it more likely that there's
some kind of mechanical problem I don't see, such as a part out of
alignment or out of round or something?
What besides lubrication usually causes trumpet valves to stick?
Would adding even more oil be of any use? I've already applied
something like 40 drops.
No, taking it to a shop isn't an option at this point... I owe, I
owe, it's off to work I go... Free trumpet = good trumpet, but I only
have about a $20 budget to fix this thing up.
---
D. Michael McIntyre | mmci...@swva.net | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/index.html
ars gratia pecuniae, sed ubi pecunia est?
dennis
> I cleaned the instrument thoroughly inside and out, and went through
> the valve parts. Everything seems to be in order, but the #2 valve
> just isn't very dependable.
sometimes a horn put down on the 2nd valve slide will tweak the cylinder.
is there a dent on the end of the 2nd valve slide?
if i were you, (is it a student horn) i would probably try putting toothpaste
(a mild abrasive) in the 2nd valve and work it up a down a little then rewash
and oil the whole thing. but 1st i'd ask here what the people who know more
than me think of the idea.
: )
what does everyone else think of that idea?
--
«.--.¸¸.´¯`.º.´¯`·.¸¸..º..¸¸.·´¯`.º.´¯`·.¸¸.--.»
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change nospam to wdhill to reply to me by e-mail
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stjsmith
If that doesn't do it then you'll probably need to have the valves done at
a reputable repair shop. this is also cheap about 30 bucks to have them
"smoothed" in a slurry paste. Providing that they do not need replating. All
of us old trumpet hounds have been through this. Be aware that sometimes
they just can't be cheaply repaired to satisfy. I have had to bail out on
some horns like this. If your after the action of an old king liberty or
something be reminded that you can't make a silk purse out of a cows ear!
best of luck, steve s.
D. Michael McIntyre wrote in message ...
>I recently came across and am restoring an old Getzen, as I detailed
>in another post.
>
>The finish is gone, but the valves seem to be in pretty good shape, as
>far as I can tell (I'm a rank novice whose only instructor is a wife
>who played trumpet 15 years ago, and she's not very mechanically
>inclined). There's no corrosion on any of the internal parts, and the
>plating is intact.
>
>the valve parts. Everything seems to be in order, but the #2 valve
Mike Ross
or nylon guides on the valves, they're notorious for getting little burrs on
them and binding in the guide slots in the cylinders. Come to think of it,
if the guides or slots are really grungy, that could cause some binding too
regardless of the material (metal or plastic).
I'd have a close look first, before I grabbed the toothpaste.
Mike
dennis wrote in message ...
>D. Michael McIntyre <mmci...@swva.net> wrote
Darin Harada
First, check if the valve is the problem or if it is the casing. Take
that #2 valve out of the trumpet and put it in either the #1 or #3 valve
position, assuming that the other two valves work fine. If the valve
moves fine, then the problem is probably the casing. If the valve sticks,
unfortunately, you need to take it to a shop. There is a set of tools
which are used to straighten and correct valves; these tools are fitted to
the valve by measuring the valve and using the appropriately sized tool.
Anyway, if it is not the valve itself, then your casing may be contorted.
You should check this by replacing the second valve, then depressing the
valve by pushing the top of the valve button from all different angles.
It would probably not stick when pressed from a certain side of the top of
the valve button, but stick when pressing from the opposite side. Often
times what happened if this symptom occurs is that the second valve slide
has been moved slightly so that the valve casing itself is slightly out of
round. If you are feeling brave, you may try the following method:
Because the valve still moves and sticks only occasionally, I'd say the
casing has not been altered significantly. Place your second valve back
in the casing, with the top cap screwed on. Now find a good place to sit
upright, preferably a non-moving chair. Next, place the bell of the
instrument against your stomach, like as if someone were going to play
into your belly button, with the second valve slide side facing up. Now
here is the dangerous part: firmly, but ever so GENTLY, pull the second
valve slide towards you. Make sure not to push the slide into the
casing. The movement should be minimal; it doesn't take very much to move
the brass, and you only want a little adjustment. You should then depress
the valve as before from all sides of the top of the valve button. If it
is moving smoothly, without sticking, then you need not move the slide any
more. If it is still sticking you can either try pushing the slide down
(away) or up (towards), making sure that you test the valve often. A lot
of this process is instinctual; you can kind of "feel" which way you need
to pull or push the slide. If you succeed, remember that metal has a
"memory" and will usually return to the state that it was originally
placed, so you may have to pull or push the slide again once or twice if
the valve sticks again. The movement will not be very large, though, if
you've done it correctly the first time.
Please, if you do try this, BE CAREFUL. Best of luck restoring that
vintage horn; please feel free to post a message or email me if you have
any questions.
Sincerely,
Darin Harada
dar...@hawaii.edu
BTW, newsgroup readers, I'm not offending anyone by giving repair
instructions, am I? I don't want to jeopardize anyone's livelihood by
telling folks how we repair things.
"D. Michael McIntyre" wrote:
> I recently came across and am restoring an old Getzen, as I detailed
> in another post.
>
> The finish is gone, but the valves seem to be in pretty good shape, as
> far as I can tell (I'm a rank novice whose only instructor is a wife
> who played trumpet 15 years ago, and she's not very mechanically
> inclined). There's no corrosion on any of the internal parts, and the
> plating is intact.
>
> I cleaned the instrument thoroughly inside and out, and went through
> the valve parts. Everything seems to be in order, but the #2 valve
S.Hager
I had the same problem with my old $15 Reynolds & what I did was take the
valves apart & let them soak in lighter fluid for a couple days & then wiped
them down & it cleared up the problem. From the looks of the lighter fluid I
had some black crud that worked loose from somewhere & by dissolving the crud
from my valves they freed up. This is probably what Mike was referring to as
being on the guides although I didn't see any of the stuff before soaking
(doesn't take much to make valves stick). Good luck on your playing & don't
worry about being tight on the funds. I'm sure you will spend many countless
hours of enjoyment playing your new horn & it won't cost but a few bucks for
valve oil, slide grease & cleaning supplys. BTW: Do you have a snake &
mouthpiece brush ... you will most likely eat up your $20 budget on cleaning &
lube supplys but, nothing plays like a clean horn. Have you cleaned your horn
out yet? Try that first! You may be blowing some of the crap from your horn
into the valves especially the #2 slide due to the fact that it is so small &
has that tight radius ... that slide seems to grunge up more quickly than the
others on my horns. Pull out the @3 slide & look inside. Do you see any green
looking sludge in the radius transition area's? That is the stuff I'm talking
about.
Spencer Hager Jr.
Mike Ross wrote:
> I'd check the condition of the valve guides first. If the valve has plastic
> or nylon guides on the valves, they're notorious for getting little burrs on
> them and binding in the guide slots in the cylinders. Come to think of it,
> if the guides or slots are really grungy, that could cause some binding too
> regardless of the material (metal or plastic).
>
> I'd have a close look first, before I grabbed the toothpaste.
>
> Mike
>
> dennis wrote in message ...
> >D. Michael McIntyre <mmci...@swva.net> wrote
RHolmes736
of the valve with the same should take care of your problem. if the cyclinder
was bent or out of shape in some fashion the valve would be consistantly
sticking. hope this works for you :)
D. Michael McIntyre
>had some black crud that worked loose from somewhere & by dissolving the crud from my valves they freed up.
That's a good possibility... They have a sort of hazy look to them,
and it's not hard to imagine that it's a .001" thick layer of dried-on
food boogers or whatever that's making the piston just an eeency bit
too large for the cylinder.
Seems to be something about the angle at which I depress the button
too... It sticks more often if I put a slight amount of pressure on it
from one side or the other.
One new thing I DID find was that the holes in the threaded caps were
filled with all sorts of green crap that I missed. Cleaning this out
did help considerably. It's almost reliable now, but not quite.
Makes for a really raunchy sound when the valve takes it time about
popping up, as if a fourth-day beginning student didn't sound raunchy
enough without the extra help. :)
>(doesn't take much to make valves stick). Good luck on your playing & don't worry about being tight on the funds. I'm sure you will spend many countless hours of enjoyment playing your new horn & it won't cost but a few bucks for valve oil, slide grease & cleaning supplys.
Gotta get some slide grease and a snake for sure.
As to playing, I'm doing pretty well IMHO. I wanted to play trumpet
back in middle school band, but I got stuck with a flute (long story).
In the intervening years I've tried my hand with guitar, harmonica and
various MIDI gear, but I just never got around to learning to play the
trumpet. I've always loved the sound of brass instruments, and the
trumpet in particular. When most kids were listening to Adam Ant and
Duran Duran, I was listening to Maurice Andre.
For whatever reason, I had never actually had the opportunity to blow
on a brass instrument before digging up this trumpet. I got a pretty
clear note on the first try. Since Saturday, I've gotten to where I
can play most of a C scale, which is not bad considering... Maybe
I'll even teach myself how to sight read again.
I've been playing the didgeridoo for a few months now, and that has
been good for my breath control, and buzz. You could almost call the
didge a very primitive "brass" instrument, so it was kind of a natural
progression.
>... you will most likely eat up your $20 budget on cleaning &
>lube supplys but, nothing plays like a clean horn. Have you cleaned your horn out yet?
I haven't brushed it out, but I did flush it several times with warm,
soapy water, and then several more times with clear water. I'll get a
snake and go to town with that next. There's definitely some gooey,
white gunk in the slides that didn't come out. I suspect it's ancient
grease. Probably lead based. :)
>> I'd check the condition of the valve guides first. If the valve has plastic
>> or nylon guides on the valves, they're notorious for getting little burrs on
>> them and binding in the guide slots in the cylinders. Come to think of it,
>> if the guides or slots are really grungy, that could cause some binding too
>> regardless of the material (metal or plastic).
The valve guides are brass, and in very good condition. The brass on
the inside of the horn fared a lot better than the outside. In any
case, I already tried swapping them around, with no real change. I
swapped springs and even the cap thingies around. The #2 piston
itself is definitely the culprit, though it actually performs most
reliable in the #1 hole. The #1 piston performs reliably in the #2
hole, so I don't know what that means. I suppose the #2 piston is
just some minute fraction larger or more gooey or something. Has to
be minute because it's ALMOST reliable.
Hey, speaking of which, are the threads on these valve caps in any way
standardized? If so, does someone sell a die to use for truing them
up? Someone cross-threaded a couple of these, and getting them on
straight is somewhat tricky (getting them on cross-threaded is much
easier). I'd like to clean up the threads, but I don't have the means
to do so.
While we're talking mechanical restoration here... How important is
the hook on top of the horn? Looking at pictures, it seems to be some
kind of finger rest or something. It's missing from this horn, and I
have no idea what became of it. There's a little patch of solder
where it used to be. I make flowers and such like out of copper, so
I'm sure I could fabricate something functional to replace this
missing part, but it wouldn't necessarily look as refined as the
original (tool marks are part of the charm of my copper artwork, but
my fabrication methods are rather crude). I'd rather just remove the
solder and pretend the horn never had a hook, but I can replace it if
it's a really important part. By that same token, how important is
the slide ring? My beginner book says to put my left ring finger
through it, but what purpose does that serve? There's no ring, and no
evidence that there ever was one.
Well, I'm over-stepping my blather allowance for the day, so I'll shut
up now.
Thanks to everyone for the most helpful suggestions! The horn is
shaping up nicely. I will have the finish restored to a mirror polish
soon enough, and hopefully I can do the same for the mechanical
function as well. I feel honored to have this opportunity. I'm not
worthy of so fine an instrument, but it needed a home so desperately.
I just couldn't leave there after having seen it without giving it a
home and the TLC it needs and deserves. To leave an instrument to rot
in the basement should be a criminal offense.
D. Michael McIntyre
>vintage horn; please feel free to post a message or email me if you have
>any questions.
I thought of another question... What would you collectively suggest
that I do about the finish? I've been working on stripping what's
left of the original lacquer, and removing all the tarnish from the
rest, but how do I keep it shiny once I restore it to a mirror polish?
I've seen places online that will spray on an epoxy finish for more
money than I have to invest, but epoxy seems out of place on an
instrument this old, and might change the sound for the worse.
I could try to spray new lacquer, but the only way I could do so would
be to use cans of spraypaint. Seems guaranteed to look awful, no
matter how careful I am, plus there's the not-so-simple matter of
making sure the slides are still removable when I'm done.
How would carnauba wax do?
If you were polishing up a 40-year-old horn and had no money to spend
to pay the pros to re-lacquer it right, what would you do as an
interim solution? I could do nothing, but that would mean I'd have to
polish it daily to keep it from tarnishing.
S.Hager
The right hand finger hook is not critical IMHO ... my Reynolds is also missing that part its absence has no affect on playability as long as your fingering technique is correct. What is critical is how you push down the valves down & release them when playing! You should be
making a C shape with your right hand & strike the valves HARD straight down (kind of a snap motion) & quickly release the valves. This elimination of side loading on the valves when playing will improve the valve action considerably. The left hand ring that connects to the #3
valve slide is important later on because you will find 1-3 valve combinations are sharp & it will require you to pull that slide for those notes to stay in tune. That is the function of the #3 slide ring you are referring to. Note: Until you get a snake you haven't really
cleaned the horn yet. You will freak on the junk that comes out of the horn when you run the snake through your horn. Be careful not to try to force the snake through the tight radius slides when you use it (slides disassembled) to keep from gouging the inside of the slides.
Before you snake the horn let it soak a good while in WARM very soapy water to help loosen & soften the debris inside the horn . Yamaha makes a pretty affordable cleaning kit that contains a MP & valve brush along with the snake & slide grease. After the first snake cleaning
rinse the horn & clean it again if time permits with the snake. When I first took my old horn out of storage it took several snake baths before the horn was completely clean. Be patient & take your time & you will notice an improvement in how the horn plays after it is clean.
Your local repair shop will have the cleaning supplies & #3 slide ring & will most likely not hit you hard on the cost. I think the cleaning kit is $12 to $15 & I bet the #3 ring will only be a couple bucks.BTW: You don't want to forget to keep the inside of that MP brushed
out (warm soapy water & MP brush).. a clean MP makes a difference. I clean my MP about once a week & my horn is snaked oput about once a month.
Best wishes,
Spencer Hager Jr.
cs_po...@my-deja.com
> Hey, speaking of which, are the threads on these valve caps in any way
> standardized? If so, does someone sell a die to use for truing them
> up? Someone cross-threaded a couple of these, and getting them on
> straight is somewhat tricky (getting them on cross-threaded is much
> easier). I'd like to clean up the threads, but I don't have the means
> to do so.
They are not hardware-store-die variety threads, but they are of known
sizes. A company called Ferree's tools sells thread chasers for fixing
them. They have a website that gives their phone number and their
paper catalog contains a table for looking up the right size from a
description of the instrument. But the tool will cost I think around
$30 - not money I'd recommend investing unless an experienced repair
person can assure you that the sticking problem will also be
economically fixable.
>
> While we're talking mechanical restoration here... How important is
> the hook on top of the horn? Looking at pictures, it seems to be some
> kind of finger rest or something. It's missing from this horn, and I
> have no idea what became of it. There's a little patch of solder
> where it used to be. I make flowers and such like out of copper, so
> I'm sure I could fabricate something functional to replace this
> missing part, but it wouldn't necessarily look as refined as the
> original (tool marks are part of the charm of my copper artwork, but
> my fabrication methods are rather crude). I'd rather just remove the
> solder and pretend the horn never had a hook, but I can replace it if
> it's a really important part.
The hook is not at all important, in fact many teacher recommend not
using it to free up the motion of the fingers. You can fabricate a new
one if you want though. The only time you might need one is if you
hand the instrument to a player used to having one - I almost dropped a
friend's insturment off a balcony once because I didn't realize the
hook was missing and was holding it too loosely.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
cs_po...@my-deja.com
> I thought of another question... What would you collectively suggest
> that I do about the finish? I've been working on stripping what's
> left of the original lacquer, and removing all the tarnish from the
> rest, but how do I keep it shiny once I restore it to a mirror polish?
>
> I've seen places online that will spray on an epoxy finish for more
> money than I have to invest, but epoxy seems out of place on an
> instrument this old, and might change the sound for the worse.
>
> I could try to spray new lacquer, but the only way I could do so would
> be to use cans of spraypaint. Seems guaranteed to look awful, no
> matter how careful I am, plus there's the not-so-simple matter of
> making sure the slides are still removable when I'm done.
>
You could try a clear laquer in a spraycan designed for protecting
brass, but I agree you won't get professional results.
> If you were polishing up a 40-year-old horn and had no money to spend
> to pay the pros to re-lacquer it right, what would you do as an
> interim solution? I could do nothing, but that would mean I'd have to
> polish it daily to keep it from tarnishing.
Many people play raw brass instruments by choice. Once the tarnish has
a chance to develop into a consistent patina it isn't bad. When it
gets really dirty, or at the first sign of green splotches you polish
it again and start the process over. But I agree the initial stages of
tarnish can be ugly.
D. Michael McIntyre
Hey, bingo! That's what I get for not having a human teacher. If I
hook my hand into a tighter C-shape the valves work perfectly now.
> The left hand ring that connects to the #3
>valve slide is important later on because you will find 1-3 valve combinations are sharp & it will require you to pull that slide for those notes to stay in tune. That is the function of the #3 slide ring you are referring to.
OK, I see that the cylindrical thing I described must be the receiver
for this part. I'll try to get a closer look at another trumpet, and
I think I can fabricate this part easily enough out of a thin slice
copper pipe. Since the horn is a combination of brass, copper and
sterling silver it won't even look out of place. I have dozens of
little pipe scraps laying around the shop.
>was completely clean. Be patient & take your time & you will notice an improvement in how the horn plays after it is clean.
I'm headed out for a snake and slide grease as we speak. I've gotten
the valves working well enough that I'm sure this instrument is a
player now, and it will only get better as I work on it.
BTW, are water key parts pretty standard? The rubber (or possibly
cork) pads on these keys are pretty far gone. They're still doing the
job of keeping water in, but they definitely need replacing.
Thanks again for all the help!
D. Michael McIntyre
>brass, but I agree you won't get professional results.
I suppose I could do it anyway. I have no intention of selling the
horn, as it's very important to my wife. I could probably do a pretty
good job with spray cans. Not pro quality, but then I could always
strip the finish later. I don't imagine it will stick that well to
brass in any case, which probably explains why it flaked off
originally. I don't imagine anything sticks to highly-polished metal
very well.
It DOES present interesting challenges. Sterling silver with copper
and brass on top in various places. Brass polish says don't get on
silver, silver polish says don't get on brass... Hmmm... :)
>Many people play raw brass instruments by choice. Once the tarnish has
>a chance to develop into a consistent patina it isn't bad. When it
>gets really dirty, or at the first sign of green splotches you polish
>it again and start the process over. But I agree the initial stages of
>tarnish can be ugly.
Well, this thing has had 30 years to develop a patina, and it's pretty
hideous. Well beyond the nice dull antique brass look you most likely
mean. It looks like it's covered in rust, which I assume means bad
things are happening to the composition of the brass.
I'm using various polishes to get rid of the bulk of this oxidation
layer, and then I'm going to strip off what's left of the lacquer and
buff everything to a mirror shine.
Wolfgang Hukriede
Hi Michael!
I dare believe the second valve should be able to work reliably
however you depress the valve or C-shape your hand, especially on a
Getzen, which traditionally have extremely nice valves anyhow. Getzen
even gives a live time warranty on the valves, iirc.
I'd follow Dennis' and Darin Harada's advice and try to carefully bend
back the second valve slide into its position, thereby restoring the
valve casing into perfect roundness.
At least, when _I_ dropped my Getzen on the carpet, making the second
valve stick, and me rapidly enter panic mode, then after cooling down
a bit, this was what I did, with instant success. No cost involved at
all. Note that the bending was so slight as to be quite invisible.
(And there was no dent at all.)
Good luck, Wolfgang.
PS: And **please** do **NOT** use steel wool....
D. Michael McIntyre <mmci...@swva.net> wrote:
> I cleaned the instrument thoroughly inside and out, and went through
> the valve parts. Everything seems to be in order, but the #2 valve
> just isn't very dependable. I've put gobs of valve oil both on the
and later:
> If I
> hook my hand into a tighter C-shape the valves work perfectly now.
"dennis" <nos...@home.com>:
D. Michael McIntyre
>valve stick, and me rapidly enter panic mode, then after cooling down
>a bit, this was what I did, with instant success. No cost involved at
>all. Note that the bending was so slight as to be quite invisible.
>(And there was no dent at all.)
Wonder if I'd have any luck trying to cash in on that lifetime
warranty, since my horn is about 44 years old and discontinued more
than 30 years ago? :)
I've disassembled the horn as completely as possible, and indeed the
little copper pull tab on the 2nd slide was flush, whereas these
handles on the other slides stick out slightly. That's my "drop"
right there, so that slide is probably the culprit, moved just a few
teensy fractions of an inch or so. I will make extremely small
corrections until I get it back in line. Meanwhile I've got a valve
brush and have brushed the inside with lighter fluid, and have soaked
the pistons in lighter fluid as well.
BTW, to anyone who's wondering, the horn is coming out beautifully.
Three applications of lacquer stripper, and four applications of
Brasso and silver polish and it looks like completely different
instrument. There are minor dents that I'm not going to fool with at
this time, and the metal is heavily pitted from so many years of
corrosion, but at least everything is shiny now. I don't think I can
get rid of the pitting without resorting to a harsher abrasive than
seems prudent, so I'm just going to buff it out with rouge as much as
possible and leave it alone. The metal at the bottom of these pits is
shiny, so it isn't really obvious unless you look very closely.
I don't imagine it's possible to get it looking brand spanking new
under the circumstances, but at least now it looks old but
well-maintained. Of course in my eagerness to get started, I forgot
to take the "before" picture.
It plays 100% better since I cleaned out the mouthpiece. Wow at the
crap inside there. Unbelievable! I had to brush it maybe 100 times
to get the last remnants of crud out.
The rest of the horn was actually spotless inside. My mother-in-law
must have kept it meticulously clean, and put it away clean, because
the only part that I got any appreciable amount of goo out of was the
tuning slide.
>PS: And **please** do **NOT** use steel wool....
Only on the outside, though mostly I've been using a lot of
toothbrushes.
Anyway, thanks again to everyone for all the useful suggestions. It
was nice not to have to go this alone, and it's really cool that I
have such a great looking horn to learn on, and all for around $40 in
supplies.
Well, let's get back to work. I have a date with a toothbrush.
D. Michael McIntyre
D. Michael McIntyre
Thanks to all the people who have given me useful advice. The horn is
finished. Not a pro restoration job by any means, but it looks
enormously better. If I get motivated some day, I can always strip
off the lacquer and try to work the metal down some more. I decided
to let it show a little bit of its age. The last two hours were spent
removing so little crud that I decided I'd rather play the horn than
look at it.
The finish went on beautifully! To anyone considering re-lacquering
their own horn, I say go for it! The extra just ran off freely (much
more freely than spray paint) and I was able to orient the horn so
that all the excess dripped from the bottom of the bell. It was a
simple matter to touch up this one little drip with a swab dipped in
lacquer thinner, and the lacquer looks like a factory job. No runs or
drips. I was amazed at how well it turned out, because I basically
suck at using spray paint.
I bent the #2 slide out just a little teeny bit, and that and the
thorough cleaning did the trick. I re-assembled everything, and the
valves worked perfectly from the first try. No more sluggish behavior
at all, at least so far.
Finally, playability has improved enormously. I have to attribute
this entirely to the gunk in the mouthpiece, since the rest of the
horn was clean, but WOW, what a difference! I'm still a rank novice,
but I ascended several levels just by having a clean horn. Stuff that
I was straining to do now flows easily, and I can actually play legato
now. I definitely sound pretty decent to have only been playing four
days.
Well, anyway, thanks again to all of you, and I'll stop posting
long-winded messages on this topic now. :)
Richard Bush
mistakes once. A good tech will save the horn for another day.