Best Cornet For British Brass Bands?
Andy Callard
Eirik Solheim wrote in message <7cop3h$cs8$1...@elle.eunet.no>...
>I have no statistics to prove I'm right, but I think that the Besson
>Sovereign BE928 is probable still the most popular "pro" cornet in
(British)
>Brass Bands in UK and the rest of Europe. >The mouthpiece is of course
important for getting the large dark cornet
>sound. Dennis Wick mouthpieces are popular. The most sold models are
>probably the 4B and 4 (deepest cup).
>
>Eirik Solheim
Absolutely correct. The Sovereign (Boosey + Hawkes) is the one that British
bands actually use...but if they tried Schilkes....
Andy Callard
London UK
LJNev
good.
Neville Young
out that people who like the 928 *really* ought to look at the
Smith-Watkins - Richard Smith designed the 928 and so in a sense the S-W is
the real successor to it. But some of you have probably heard this before
from me!
website at: http://www.rsmi.u-net.com/
PS Hi Andy!! :)
Nev
"Andy Callard" <andy.c...@virgin.net> wrote:
--
Neville Young
nevi...@globalnet.co.uk
Graeme Lewis
Bands, I can confirm that the Besson Sovereignis still the biggest seller,
although the build quality is questionable, these days. They don't even
make their own valves and the recall rate for lacquered instruments is VERY
high. My own preference is with the Yamaha Maestro in Lacquer. It is a
larger bore instrument, the Build Quality is excellent and they sell loads
of them. Many of my friends agree that the Sovereign Cornet tuning sldes
generally don't fit properly with a good amaount of slop in the fitting and
the valves just are not as quick or reliable as the YAM's !
BIGSQUIREL <bigsq...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990316204653...@ng145.aol.com>...
> What are some good Cornets to try for British brass bands?
>
>
Brian Jones
The cornet should be a shepherds crook model. The Besson Sovereign is
the most popular, but the Yamaha Maestro and Courtois Chambord are both
excellent instruments. Of the US offerings Schilke, Getzen Eterna and
Bach Strad 184 are also used over here but the Bach and Schilke are
considerably more expensive than the Besson and Yamaha in the UK and I
am sure this is the only reason that they are less prevalent.
Good luck
Brian Jones
In article <19990316204653...@ng145.aol.com>, BIGSQUIREL
<bigsq...@aol.com> writes
Jadosi
What model number is on this horn?
Brian Jones <br...@demon.co> wrote in message
news:cQ9jADAqtJ$2E...@trumpetman.demon.co.uk...
Rosenquist
>> What are some good Cornets to try for British brass bands?
>The cornet should be a shepherds crook model.
*** Agree !!!!!!!!!!!
>The Besson Sovereign is the most popular,
*** Agree !!!!!!
>....but the Yamaha Maestro and Courtois Chambord are both
>excellent instruments.
*** Agree ! (... and also included the Kanstul Signature Cornet)
>Of the US offerings Schilke, Getzen Eterna and Bach Strad 184 are
>also used over here but the Bach and Schilke are considerably
>more expensive than the Besson and Yamaha in the UK and I
>am sure this is the only reason that they are less prevalent.
*** Disagree !!!!! Bachs and Schilkes are perfect instruments for use
in symphony orchestra's, (wind)bands and 'american style' brass bands.
In this kind of orchestra's/bands you need to project, but in a
(British) brass band you need to blend. The sound needs to be
maintained over the complete range of the instrument, that is loud and
soft, high and low.
In a traditional British brass band, you need an instrument unique to
that style of band.
You will therefore play a modern large bore instrument (The Besson
Sovereign 900 serie would be ideal) and will therefore need a large,
deep mouthpiece. A Dennis Wick 2 (instead of a Bach mouthpiece, for
example !) would be ideal but a 4 would be the smallest. ......
(Except for the Soprano cornet, many players prefer the Schilke/Yamaha
Eb Cornet. I prefer the Schilke one.)
....This combined with playing a lot more than in an orchestra will
mean exercising to strengthening your chops and develop a sound that
blends (!) with the rest of the band !!!
For brass banding I play a Besson Sovereign BE928. In my (!) mind you
also shouldn't play a Sovereign Cornet in symphony ochestra, I prefer
Bach 184 for this kind of music.
I'm sure for 450% the price has nothing (!!!!!!) to do with this !
Kindest Regards.
Yours Sincerely,
Daniël Rosenquist
Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
Cornet Player of the Salvation Army
Trumpet student at the School of Music
dennis
>>> What are some good Cornets to try for British brass bands?
>
>>The cornet should be a shepherds crook model.
>*** Agree !!!!!!!!!!!
sorry, i have to say it.
take a look at my shepard's crook model. it would be great for british brass
band style music. i wish there was some real good player who would find
out about it, and give it a try. it could sweep europe. *there is a british distributor
now*.
http://www.flipoakes.com/cornet.htm
if it looks a lot like the kanstul signature, it's because that was the horn that
flip added his extra features to. it is so great, i don't see how anything could
be better. (i'll try and keep an open mind though)
«•--.¸¸.´¯`.º.´¯`·.¸¸.•º•.¸¸.·´¯`.º.´¯`·.¸¸.--•»
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change nospam to wdhill to reply to me by e-mail
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Mike Garbett
<jad...@yahoo.com> writes
>I looked in my Yamaha catalog and do not see a reference to Yamaha Maestro.
>What model number is on this horn?
YCR-6335H = Lacquer
YCR-6335HS = Silver Plate
I purchased one of these a few months ago. I tried it side by side with
my initial choice the B&H Sovereign. No contest. The Yamaha had a far
better sound, greater flexibility and much better build quality. The new
Sovereign seemed a very poor substitute for the older ones I had tried
with very sluggish valves (even after several attempts to clean and oil
them with 3 different oils) and a mediocre tone. Maybe I tried a poor
example but... on the day the Yamaha made it seem like a student model!!
There is (to my ears anyway) a distinct difference in sound between the
two finishes on the Maestro. I prefer the silver for a solo sound but
others would no doubt disagree. I suspect the slightly more mellow tone
of the lacquer would blend better in a brass band cornet section.
The Yamaha 16E mouthpiece which comes as part of the package is
excellent and I prefer it to the Wick mouthpieces I have used
previously. With my trusty Wick 4B the Maestro was very good.... with
the 16E it was and is an outstanding instrument which gives me great
pleasure each and every time I play it.
Bill Lewington's of London produce another mouthpiece worth considering.
It was produced in collaboration with Philip McCann who also spent 3
years working with Yamaha to develop the Maestro cornet!!!
It produces a slightly brighter sound and (for me at least) better
endurance as it seems to have a wider rim. However, for sheer beauty of
sound and outstanding flexibility the Yamaha 16E wins every time!
All the best,
Mike Garbett
Jadosi
it though, just a number. And the catalog doesn't reference that name. They
must use that when they sell the instrument in Britain. It is a wonderful
Cornet. The horn resonates in my hands unlike any brass instrument I've
ever played. The intonation and sound quality are superb. And of course the
Yamaha quality - valves, slides, etc - is outstanding.
Mike Garbett <mi...@mikegarbett.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OIKAHDAk8Y$2E...@mikegarbett.demon.co.uk...
Tom Warner
> *there is a british distributor
> now*.
Uhh, a bit more information perchance?
I admit to considerable lust for Flip's cornet...
All the best,
Tom
--
"You keep either intentionally or
unintentionally trying to confuse the goals we had for
investing in the relationship (with Apple) with the
goals we had overall for investing in Apple." - Bill Gates
Mike Garbett
<jad...@yahoo.com> writes
>Thank you - Now I know I own the Maestro (YCR-6335HS). There's no name on
>it though, just a number. And the catalog doesn't reference that name. They
>must use that when they sell the instrument in Britain. It is a wonderful
>Cornet. The horn resonates in my hands unlike any brass instrument I've
>ever played. The intonation and sound quality are superb. And of course the
>Yamaha quality - valves, slides, etc - is outstanding.
>
>
Interesting......
The early models sold in the UK had Maestro engraved on the leadpipe and
a totally blank bell. My more recent one has Maestro on the bell itself!
It's nice to know that someone else shares my enthusiasm for this
instrument!!!
Howard Peirce
> I purchased one of these a few months ago. I tried it side by side with
> my initial choice the B&H Sovereign. No contest. The Yamaha had a far
> better sound, greater flexibility and much better build quality. The new
> Sovereign seemed a very poor substitute for the older ones I had tried
> with very sluggish valves (even after several attempts to clean and oil
> them with 3 different oils) and a mediocre tone. Maybe I tried a poor
> example but... on the day the Yamaha made it seem like a student model!!
This is interesting--about 15 years ago, I tested the B+H Sovereign against my
initial choice, the Yamaha 6335 in silver. It was indeed no contest, and I've
been happy with my Sovereign ever since! Don't know whether this is a diff'rent
strokes/diff'rent folks kind of thing, or whether the Sovereign really has gone
downhill since Besson took over.
I remember thinking that the Yamaha was a good, solid horn that met all the
objective criteria you'd want in a general-purpose cornet, but that the
Sovereign had *character*--a unique sound and feel unlike any other horn I
tried, fat and buttery and warm, but really punchy when I really filled the
horn with air. I know that the Sovereign doesn't blend well with American-style
cornets--and *really* doesn't blend with a section of trumpets--but since most
of my playing is small-group jazz, I'm more interesting in a unique-sounding
horn.
My Sovereign has the best valves of any horn I've played, but I will agree with
the poster who pointed out fit and finish problems with the tuning slide.
I was leery when I heard Besson had taken over, and if the Yamaha beats the
Sovereign hands down, then it looks like my fears are justified.
HP
Tom Warner
> It was indeed no contest, and I've been happy with my Sovereign ever
> since! Don't know whether this is a diff'rent strokes/diff'rent folks kind
> of thing, or whether the Sovereign really has gone downhill since Besson
> took over.
Actually it's B+H that is the parent company. They own Besson and
F.Besson.
I tend to think that's down to personal choice. My Sovereign 928GS
(current model) is less than 5 years old and it is absolutely
_wonderful_ . Valves, sound, quality all terrific. The kid who sits next
to me just bought a brand new one and his is also a great cornet.
*However* I wouldn't buy one mail order unless it was from someone like
Donovan who thoroughly checks them out.
This is what I've been told:
In the last few years a large number of brass bands have received
lottery grants to buy new instruments. B+H have been stretched to meet
demand and manufacturing quality control may have suffered as a result.
AFAIK, Sovereigns are still by far the most popular over here but,
Yamaha and the new Courtois are making in-roads.
That's for the Bb. Schilke seems to have a strangle hold on the soprano
market...
Flip Oaks, where are you? Come in please! ;)
Howard Peirce
> AFAIK, Sovereigns are still by far the most popular over here but,
> Yamaha and the new Courtois are making in-roads.
>
> That's for the Bb. Schilke seems to have a strangle hold on the soprano
> market...
So, you're in the UK? Honestly, one of the reasons I like my Sovereign so much
is that you see so few of them in the States. It really stands out, and gets a
lot of attention for its unique look and sound. I lucked into it, because when
I went up to Brasswind to try some Yamahas, they had this Boosey that someone
had special-ordered and never picked up. Between Brasswind's eagerness to
unload it, and the exchange rate at the time, I got a really nice deal.
Years ago I played Yamaha's Eb, and really liked it. Do you see many of the
Yamaha Ebs over there?
HP
Brian Jones
Sorry I have been away a few days and I haven't had access to the group.
The Maestro is the 6335h UK model. It has a large bore and for the style
of music is excellent.
Brain Jones
In article <7djf5n$k01$1...@mtinsc01.worldnet.att.net>, Jadosi
<jad...@yahoo.com> writes
>I looked in my Yamaha catalog and do not see a reference to Yamaha Maestro.
>What model number is on this horn?
>
Brian Jones
I have just been trying out instruments and from what I can find out
from the trade, B+H knew they had a quality control problem and since a
new MD has been in place (start of year) much money has been spent on
machinery and procedures to improve quality control. In recent years
the Sovereigns have been hit or miss but the new cornets I tried were
all flawless, the fit and finish were 1st class, valves excellent and
they blew well. If all the instruments they produce now are as good
then B+H/Besson are back in the game. There shouldn't be to much old
stock out there as lottery funding for band sets of instruments meant
that new Sovereigns were almost all sold as soon as they were produced.
Brian Jones
In article <370130BA...@sdrc.com>, Howard Peirce
<howard...@sdrc.com> writes
>This is interesting--about 15 years ago, I tested the B+H Sovereign against my
>initial choice, the Yamaha 6335 in silver. It was indeed no contest, and I've
>been happy with my Sovereign ever since! Don't know whether this is a diff'rent
>strokes/diff'rent folks kind of thing, or whether the Sovereign really has gone
>downhill since Besson took over.
>
Brian Jones
If you think the Bach cannot be used in Brass bands try to get a
recording of Kevin Dye or Martin Winter in the time they played
principal cornet for Desford Colliery Band (the whole Cornet section was
Strads) when they won the National Championship. Also Jim Davies has
played on a Getzen Eterna and many of his cornet section who won the
hat-trick of national championships were playing on strads.
All the best
Brian Jones
In article <36fd3ad1...@news.bart.nl>, Rosenquist
<site...@bart.nl> writes
>Hi Brian !!!
>Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
>Cornet Player of the Salvation Army
>Trumpet student at the School of Music
--
Brian Jones
Rosenquist
>If you think the Bach cannot be used in Brass bands,.....
I didn't think/say that ! Of course you can ! Why not ? I know a lot
of great brass bands/players who/wich are using Bachs (e.g. Brass Band
of Battle Creek, and other 'american style' brass bands). Bachs are
great instruments for this kind of banding.
But in British Brass Bands the B&H (Sovereign) cornet is most
used/popular.
>try to get a recording of,....
Roger Webster (Principal CWS Glasgow/ex- princ. Black Dyke)
Michael Baker (Principal Black Dyke Band)
David Daws (Principal S.A. International Staff Band/Enfield Band)
Ian Porthouse (Principal Yorkshire Building S. Band)
Keith Hutchinson (former principal S.A. Enfield Band)
Harry Mortimer - The infamous 'Man of Brass
James Sheppard (founder/princ. J.B. Verstile Brass)
or british bands like:
The Black Dyke Band
Yorkshire Building Society Band
Brighouse & Rastrick Band
CWS (Glasgow) Band
Williams Fairey Band
Grimethorpe Coliery Band
S.A. International Staff Band
S.A. Enfield Band
>Desford Colliery Band (the whole Cornet section was Strads)
>when they won the National Championship. Also Jim Davies
>has played on a Getzen Eterna and many of his cornet section
>who won the hat-trick of national championships were playing
>on strads.
EBBC Bands with conet sections playing on B&H (Sovereign) instruments
(* = from Great Britain) :
1998 Brighouse and Rastrick *
1997 Yorkshire Building Society Band *
1996 Yorkshire Building Society Band *
1995 Black Dyke Band *
1994 Williams Fairey Band *
1992 Brittania Building Society Band *
1991 Black Dyke Band *
1990 Black Dyke Band *
1987 Black Dyke Band *
1985 Black Dyke Band *
1984 Black Dyke Band *
1983 Black Dyke Band *
1982 Black Dyke Band *
Just a few names,..... ;o)
Best Wishes !
Daniël Rosenquist
Brian Jones
>>If you think the Bach cannot be used in Brass bands,.....
>
>I didn't think/say that ! Of course you can ! Why not ? I know a lot
>of great brass bands/players who/wich are using Bachs (e.g. Brass Band
>of Battle Creek, and other 'american style' brass bands). Bachs are
>great instruments for this kind of banding.
>
I commented that Bachs could be used in British style bands because at
least the Desford and Cory hat-tricks were won playing Bachs. That is
British style bands winning the UK championship 6 times, not American
style bands. I am not arguing that Bessons will have won more but I am
saying that Bachs have, can and are being used.
>But in British Brass Bands the B&H (Sovereign) cornet is most
>used/popular.
>
Agreed, but the original poster did not ask what sort of cornet was the
most popular, but what names were used. I took this to mean that the
poster would then go out and try a bunch. To live in the US and chance
upon a good Sovereign would be lucky indeed. (last year I tried 7 in a
shop and only one was nearly as good as my 928GS - this situation has
seemingly improved lately).
The reason I quoted the players to listen to was because you say that
Bach can only be played by US style bands and I was trying to show that
a UK type band sound (if such a single sound exists) could be obtained
from a Bach or almost any pro quality short model cornet. I do not
argue that many more Besson examples can be found but that is not the
point - and certainly not what the original poster asked. As I alluded
to earlier, there are a lot more cornets out there than just a Besson.
At the National finals in Harrogate last year I saw bands using Bessons,
Yamahas, Courtois, Bachs, Schilkes, and Smith-Watkins.
Yours
Brian Jones
Rosenquist
>I commented that Bachs ..... have, can and are being used.
Agreed !! :o)
>The reason I quoted the players to listen to was because you say that
>Bach can only be played by US style bands and I was trying to show that
>a UK type band sound (if such a single sound exists) could be obtained
>from a Bach or almost any pro quality short model cornet.
Sorry,... I did't mean that ! I was trying to say every brand/type of
cornet has got his own characteristics. Bach is more 'trumpet-like'.
The Sovereign is just little bit more warmer and mellower than a Bach.
The Besson Sovereign has the large, full sound that is sought after by
brass bands and discriminating soloists alike. The cornet's rose brass
bell allows for a dark sound and that blends beautifully. Perfect for
a Brass Band.
>To live in the US and chance upon a good Sovereign would be lucky
>indeed. (last year I tried 7 in a shop and only one was nearly as good
>as my 928GS - this situation has
Agreed,.... the craftmanship and the quality of the Sovereign cornets
is not as good as it was (about 10 years ago). But I think you can
find this problem with a lot of brands. (I tried bunch of Bachs Strad.
trumpets in a shop, all the horns had problems (with the valves,
finishing, etc.). So I went to the Yamaha HGSII.
- I wrote this in a message earlier -
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In my (!!) mind the musical craftmanschip at Yamaha (and Schilke,
etc.) are one (!!) of the best at the moment. With a lot of
handcrafting, and the use of the high advanced technology.
"Elements of handcrafting give it the exceptional quality of the human
touch."
Yamaha instruments have a high quality of soldering, buffing,
degreasing,laquering, then checking for flaws and after all checking
intonation and mechanical operation of the instrument. This process
determines if the instrument meets Yamaha quality standards.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>..... but the Bach and Schilke are considerably more expensive
>>than the Besson and Yamaha in the UK and I am sure this is the only
>>reason that they are less prevalent.
I was also trying to say that the price has nothing to do with this/
>.... there are a lot more cornets out there than just a Besson.
>At the National finals in Harrogate last year I saw bands using Bessons,
>Yamahas, Courtois, Bachs, Schilkes, and Smith-Watkins.
Agreed ! :o) The Smith-Watkins, Courtois, and Kanstul are also great
cornets wich are well suited for use in a brass band.
Kindest Regards and Best Wishes,
Yours.
Howard Peirce
> At the National finals in Harrogate last year I saw bands using Bessons,
> Yamahas, Courtois, Bachs, Schilkes, and Smith-Watkins.
Just out of curiousity: In the UK, is it fair to say that the bands have a
matching consort of instruments (i.e., all Sovereigns, all Yamahas, etc.)
or do the band members provide their own instruments according to their
tastes?
About 15 years ago, I played in a fine British-style brass band here in the
States (Bloomington Brass Band, from Bloomington IN; we placed 2nd at the
'84 North American championships in Toronto), and we had a pretty motley
assortment of cornets, since we each supplied our own. Mostly Yamahas and
Getzens, IIRC. I had the section's only Sovereign, but I started out on a
borrowed Olds long model! Sacrilege indeed.
HP
Brian Jones
Many of the top bands have matching sets of instruments, sometimes they
may be sponsored and it is easier to purchase 9 cornets of the same type
at the same time rather than rely on personal preference of personnel
that may change. Unsponsored bands usually have a mixed set that has
been gathered over some years, either different makes or even Sovereigns
from very differing eras.
Also some cornet players sometimes prefer a particular cornet, (e.g.
both John Hudson and Jim Shepherd play Smith-Watkins cornets and I do
not think any band has a set of those yet. Also when the Sterling 1st
came out Alan Morrison sometimes played a large bore model in silver
plate with the Grimethorpe band).
Sometimes a bands instruments may be heavily used/abused and a players
own instrument may be more appropriate/preferable.
There is no hard or fast rule and I have never been asked to change
cornet just because it was not one of the same make. However I think
most conductors would flip if I tried to play a long model cornet.
good luck
Brian Jones
In article <370918DC...@sdrc.com>, Howard Peirce
<howard...@sdrc.com> writes