Bach 189-37
Ralph Caccese
trumpet? Another question. Is it the most commonly used trumpet in
orchestras?
jan
dccb1622.0212...@posting.google.com...
> Just curious. Is the Bach 180 with 37 bell really the best symphonic
> trumpet?
be. Selmer bought Bach in the sixties and they don't think quality control
is very important. If you line up 20 modern Bach's, you basically have 20
wildly different trumpets. You can find gems among them, but you gotta dig
deep to find them. Try before you buy!
There are many brands that make trumpets that are just as good or better and
cost less.
> Another question. Is it the most commonly used trumpet in
> orchestras?
Don't know about that. Don't assume that since everybody got one it wil be
the best for you. Make your own choice.
Catzz66
>> trumpet?
Not really. Most symphony players in the US use C trumpets. (Something else
for you to look for, eh?) Bach and Yamaha are still pretty much the standard
ones used here in the US.
People knock Bach a lot (and I personally don't play one) but they are still
pretty common in symphony orchestras. I would not think twice about using one.
The ones I have played have been okay to very good, though bad directors seem
to see most of the new ones and would tend to be the people who notice the
dogs. I just don't have one at the moment.
Ed Grant
anyway. Isn't it mostly we rebellious and deviant North Americans who have
this "thing" about piston valves? Ok...except for jazz and whatnot. But in
a symphonic setting I think that the rotaries are the most commonly used
outside of N.A.
--
Ed Grant
"jan" <rpr...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:auk6pt$7ui$1...@reader11.wxs.nl...
David C. Stephens
always with rotaries so far as I can find, but I've got pictures of Berlin
with both rotary and piston. Don't have any pictures of the French, but I'd
suspect rotary.
In the US, you see a lot other than Bach, but Bach is the dominant brand.
Still, "best" would depend on where you'll be playing.
Dave
"Ed Grant" <meg...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:WrmP9.59013$k13.1...@news0.telusplanet.net...
Dr. Trumpet
"Ed Grant" <meg...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> And I'd be thinking that "most orchestras" would be using rotary valve horns
> anyway. Isn't it mostly we rebellious and deviant North Americans who have
> this "thing" about piston valves? Ok...except for jazz and whatnot. But in
> a symphonic setting I think that the rotaries are the most commonly used
> outside of N.A.
Not so. There are very few orchestras outside of Germany who make
constant use of rotary valve trumpets. The LSO uses (or used) Schilke
E4Ls on a lot of stuff. This horn is so popular in London that when
Wallace joined Yamaha, Yamaha was required to design one.
The piston trumpet has also always been the norm in French orchestras,
and Italian orchestras. Russian orchestras are most often seen with
piston trumpets, and mostly in Bb.
AL
Dr. Trumpet
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Don't have any pictures of the French, but I'd
> suspect rotary.
Your suspicions would be incorrect. Aside from Germanic orchestra, most
of Europe uses piston trumpets, including France. The light, bright
sound of Maurice Andre and the Mager/Voison sound of Boston orchestra is
the French school in action.
AL
Ed Grant
See? It's a bad day when you don't learn something new!
"Dr. Trumpet" <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YeoP9.199$Wb.3...@news.iquest.net...
Dr. Trumpet
"Ed Grant" <meg...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Well go figure. Thanks for the info, Al. I'd always thought otherwise.
> See? It's a bad day when you don't learn something new!
>
>
>
Amen. I learn something every day. Sometimes more on somedays that
others.......
Sometimes less........
But, if I get to 11 PM that day and figure I haven't learned anything, I
open up a dictionary and look for a few new words, read a paper, or ask
my wife to tell me about a surgical procedure.....
Have a good one, Ed!
AL
Guess who?
Ed Grant
homecare field....enough woe and misery there to fill a teapot (or a Benge
#5 fugel bell). Don't think I could stand "tales from the OR".
"Dr. Trumpet" <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TJoP9.203$Wb.3...@news.iquest.net...
Peter Bond
> Just curious. Is the Bach 180 with 37 bell really the best symphonic
> trumpet? Another question. Is it the most commonly used trumpet in
> orchestras?
The Bach 180 ML/37 probably is the best sounding symphony trumpet, but
nowadays, North American orchestras use C trumpets almost exclusively
(primarily for reasons of accuracy). That is why the more popular C
for orchestral playing is the large bore; to approximate the ML Bb
sound. A med. large bore C sounds narrower and more penetrating, or
"French" (ala Andre or Voisin); it doesn't blend particularly well.
In the same way, the mouthpiece sizes used with C's in today's
orchestras tend to be much larger (1C, 1B, 1 1/2 C, etc. with bigger
throats and backbores) than those used by symphony men of the 30's and
40's on their Bb's. Many American orchestra players will only reach
for their Bb's to play the Carmen prelude, Tannhauser overture, or
some other low register excerpt, or maybe Gershwin. A 2nd or 3rd
player will often have to have one handy, while the principal player
will own one, but have forgotten where he keeps it.
The most common American orchestral set-up is a Bach C180L w/229 bell
and a 25H or 25A leadpipe. A cut-down Bb tuning slide (identifiable by
the larger ferrules) is now standard equipment with the 25H
combination because it was requested so often (in imitation of
Herseth). Yamaha and others makers copy this design and/or use it as a
point of departure (just as the Besson "Meha" Bb was the model other
builders copied in the early 20th century).
Bachs can by little inconsistent in the way they play (they're
factory-made in great numbers), but their sound in the orchestra is
still unbeatable IMO.
BTW, a "dog" Bach (or any other trumpet for that matter) can often be
made to "sing" by having a GOOD repair shop take it apart (all
soft-soldered joins and braces) and reassemble it with great care (no
stress). This may not hold true if the horn has been smashed or
otherwise badly damaged, but it will revitalize a horn that has been
gradually bent or stressed by life in a gig bag.
Yamaha's are probably my #2 choice. They are very fine factory-made
instruments with incredible quality control (you can mail-order one
with confidence). They play very easily and evenly with wonderful
intonation, but lack a little in color and excitement of tone.
These elements (even tone & intonation vs. colorful, exciting sound)
are thought by some pros & builders to exist in contrasting proportion
to each other but never together in the same trumpet.
These are subtlties for symphonic and/or "legit" players in an
acouistic environment; jazz and "commercial" considerations and
criteria can be quite different.
Intonation and playability are for some players the #1 consideration,
which will of course influence their choice. Others of us put up with
using a little "mental radar," astrology, and harder work in order to
get "the sound."
Respectfully,
Peter Bond
Trumpet, Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
Catzz66
>factory-made in great numbers), but their sound in the orchestra is
>still unbeatable IMO.
Peter, do you think that another reason professional players are not so worried
about how a horn plays out of the box is because they are not afraid of doing a
little tweaking to them? They are going to fool around with them anyway and
have the time and energy to do it.
I can see a band instructor getting more frustrated about quality control since
he has to deal with enough physical problems with students without regard to
possible problems with the brand new horns his students bring in.
bach37
> Seems like the LSO is always be pictured with piston trumpets. Vienna is
Heck yeah. LSO are the big boys who play on Bbs. I have a DVD of them
doing Rite of Spring. Murphy is playing the D part on a D trumpet, and
the rest of the section is playing on Bbs. Man- what a trumpet section.
Anyone know if they used Bbs or the 4valve Eb's on the recent Star
Wars stuff?
-Scott
Ralph Caccese
Boy, am I confused now. All I want is a good, no, very good B flat
trumpet with an orchestral sound. Now your talking about C trumpets,
rotary valves,GEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Should I look at rotary trumpets?
I've never played one, but they do look rather cool. A C trumpet is on
my menu, but down the road. Right now I would like to concentrate on a
B flat. Funny, Selmer also owns Steinway. I see a very similar
parallel with Bach trumpets and Steinway pianos. Inconsistancy in
quality keeps coming up for both instruments. Most people would say
Steinway is not the best piano, but it is the piano most performers
use and, it is my perferred piano. I have one, but an old one being
rebuilt because I didn't like any of the new ones I played, and I
played many. In the hands of a true craftsman, Steinway is very tough
to beat. Workmanship is lacking their new pianos. As I said, most
performers use Steinway. Of coarse these pianos are not the same as a
showroom piano, they are prepped differently. But a trumpet really
can't be prepped in any way, can it? If Bach is not the trumpet of
choice for orchestral music, which is? Does Bach suffer from the same
problems as Steinway; ie, inconsistancy? Is the Bach trumpet good
enough to warrent time hunting for a good one, or should I just get a
Yamaha? They seem to be as consistant as the Bachs are inconsistant;
same with their pianos, I just dont like the sound of their pianos.
Gordon Hudson
"Peter Bond" <trump...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d1a94c4f.0212...@posting.google.com...
> Yamaha's are probably my #2 choice. They are very fine factory-made
> instruments with incredible quality control (you can mail-order one
> with confidence). They play very easily and evenly with wonderful
> intonation, but lack a little in color and excitement of tone.
I have to agree with this.
I bought My yamaha 6335H 12 years ago to replace a Selmer Paris
that didnt produce the right sound for the orchestra.
The only problem with the Yamaha is the lack of colour in the tone.
It can be a littel dead at times.
However, the newer ones may be better.
They are so much cheaper than Bach's its worth considering them
I am half thinking about Schilke when I come to replace it,
I even had adream last night about ordering a custom E4L
with s removable lead pipe for D tuning.
and having to visit the factory to have it done.
What a sad person I am having dreams about trumpets ........
I am definitly having a mid life crisis.
I have to say that I dont see many E4L's in use in UK orchestras.
People do have them but 9/10 times they are playing bachs or equivalents in
Bb.
Gordon
Catzz66
>Boy, am I confused now. All I want is a good, no, very good B flat
>trumpet with an orchestral sound. Now your talking about C trumpets,
People are just answering your questions literally, Ralph. If you are just
going to be playing for your own enjoyment, the standard Bb is probably fine.
Have not played rotary horns a whole lot, but it seemed to me that it took a
whole different technique and "touch" from a piston horn, and I didn't really
care for it. Any horn with a middle of the road sound, not too bright and not
too dark would probably fit the bill.
Robert DeSavage
<use...@hostroute.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Bond" <trump...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:d1a94c4f.0212...@posting.google.com...
>> rcacc...@yahoo.com (Ralph Caccese) wrote in message
>news:<dccb1622.0212...@posting.google.com>...
>
>> Yamaha's are probably my #2 choice. They are very fine factory-made
>> instruments with incredible quality control (you can mail-order one
>> with confidence). They play very easily and evenly with wonderful
>> intonation, but lack a little in color and excitement of tone.
>
>I have to agree with this.
>I bought My yamaha 6335H 12 years ago to replace a Selmer Paris
>that didnt produce the right sound for the orchestra.
>
>The only problem with the Yamaha is the lack of colour in the tone.
>It can be a littel dead at times.
>
>However, the newer ones may be better.
>They are so much cheaper than Bach's its worth considering them
>
>I am half thinking about Schilke when I come to replace it,
>I even had adream last night about ordering a custom E4L
>with s removable lead pipe for D tuning.
>and having to visit the factory to have it done.
>
>What a sad person I am having dreams about trumpets ........
>I am definitly having a mid life crisis.
Just you wait Gordon. After your mid life crisis, you'll enter a
period where you'll want 'em all and actually buy 'em all. It becomes
possible to justify this by having a 'I'm spending my kid's
inheritance' attitude. What I did to make it more affordable and to
ease my conscience was to quit smoking. Not only is it of benefit to
me health wise, at $5.25 a pack times 2 packs a day times 365 days a
year, that comes out to $3832.50 a year. If you live in Taxachusetts,
count on the cost being increased. I think out of what I'm not
spending on butts, I can buy myself a Calicchio or 2. Holding that
horn in my hands feels better than the Pall Mall I usually held. It's
better than the patch to fend off withdrawal. Where there's a will,
there's a way. 8-)
BOB
Dr. Trumpet
rcacc...@yahoo.com (Ralph Caccese) wrote:
Ralph,
To be honest, the Opera you just bought was designed by Olds to be their
symphonic trumpet. With the right thought process and right tone
concept, it should meet your needs very nicely for all your playing. I
play one Bb, one C, one Eb, one flugel, one cornet and two piccs. The
rest are redundant.
AL
Daniel Duncan
Ralph,
Most people in this country play a C trumpet in Orchestras. The 180-37 Bach
is the most common Bb trumpet in use in America. I have one that I use on
sellected Orchestral works such as the 1st Eb trumpet part to Richard
Strauss's "Ein Heldenleben".
Orchestral players in England use Bb trumpets on just about everything.
Sometimes using an Eb trumpet on selected high licks. Most of them tend to
use large bore Bb's or medium large bore with larger bells, like the 72
bell.
Hope this helps,
Dan
"Ralph Caccese" <rcacc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dccb1622.0212...@posting.google.com...
Donald L. Winters
This is an excellent summary of the criteria for choosing one trumpet
over another. Thanks for the information. I have a question regarding the
following point:
> These elements (even tone & intonation vs. colorful, exciting sound)
> are thought by some pros & builders to exist in contrasting proportion
> to each other but never together in the same >
Why is there a tradeoff between intonation and sound? It seems to me that a
skilled builder should be able to produce a horn that had both good
intonation and a colorful sound.
Don Winters
Peter Bond
> Boy, am I confused now. All I want is a good, no, very good B flat
Buy the Bach 180/37 or the Yamaha equivilent (6445, I believe). You'll
be fine (we use the 180/37 here at the Met when we play Bb).
*Test them first so you are happy.
*Play them for a trusted colleague or teacher.
*Have your teacher or colleague play them for YOU.
If you don't know what an orchestral sound is, find a good teacher
(which you should try to do anyway); orchestral sound is mostly about
HOW you play, not what you play.
Peter Bond
Peter Bond
> >Bachs can by little inconsistent in the way they play (they're
> >factory-made in great numbers), but their sound in the orchestra is
> >still unbeatable IMO.
>
> Peter, do you think that another reason professional players are not so worried
> about how a horn plays out of the box is because they are not afraid of doing a
> little tweaking to them? They are going to fool around with them anyway and
> have the time and energy to do it.
Who says pros don't want the horn to play well "out of the box"? Most
of the players I know certainly do. Some guys however, will always
tweak their horns (or cars), if only to "personalize" them. ("....some
chrome mud flaps and turquoise valve caps for that Bach Bb, sir?")
> I can see a band instructor getting more frustrated about quality control since
> he has to deal with enough physical problems with students without regard to
> possible problems with the brand new horns his students bring in.
I was talking about fine playing subtlties (undetectable to most
students or band directors) when I mentioned inconsistencies. The
high-end trumpets of nearly all manufacturers (Bach, Yamaha,
Conn/King, Getzen, etc.) are of splendid quality, "right out of the
box," as are most of their mid-level horns.
Peter Bond
Ralph Caccese
> Just curious. Is the Bach 180 with 37 bell really the best symphonic
> trumpet? Another question. Is it the most commonly used trumpet in
> orchestras?
Thanks to all for the replys. Peter, thank you, that was a very
interesting post you made. When I was studing music in college (1977)
I remember all the trumpet students walking around with Bach trumpets
and assumed they were B flat. I was studing piano at that time. I
never understood why anyone would play a B flat instrument. Why not
just use a C trumpet and forget about transposing. I know there are
concertos and other works specifically written for the B flat trumpet.
Can these works be found transposed for the C trumpet? Would that be
an acceptable thing to do, or should a concerto for B flat trumpet be
played on a B flat instrument?
The B flat I own, Olds Opera, I really don't want to play very often
althought it plays wonderfully. The sound I want is the Bach sound
that I'm used to. Now my question has become, do I go with C or B
flat? This is only for my own enjoyment and not part of an orchestra.
Is it useless to own a C trumpet if I don't play in an orchestra?
Peter, next time I'm at the Met, I'll poke my head into the pit and
say hello. You guys sound great. I've been going there for years.
Dr. Trumpet
trump...@aol.com (Peter Bond) wrote:
> I was talking about fine playing subtlties (undetectable to most
> students or band directors) when I mentioned inconsistencies. The
> high-end trumpets of nearly all manufacturers (Bach, Yamaha,
> Conn/King, Getzen, etc.) are of splendid quality, "right out of the
> box," as are most of their mid-level horns.
Then you definitely get a different lot of instruments for trial in NY
than we do here in Indianapolis. Many of the pro horns I play made by
most manufacturers areinconsistent, marginally assembled, and require
substantial tweeking to make in tune, etc. etc.
One exception to this rule has been the Conn Vintage One. Great horns
with a great tone and great intonation.
AL
Dr. Trumpet
rcacc...@yahoo.com (Ralph Caccese) wrote:
> rcacc...@yahoo.com (Ralph Caccese) wrote in message
> news:<dccb1622.0212...@posting.google.com>...
> > Just curious. Is the Bach 180 with 37 bell really the best symphonic
> > trumpet? Another question. Is it the most commonly used trumpet in
> > orchestras?
>
>
> Thanks to all for the replys. Peter, thank you, that was a very
> interesting post you made. When I was studing music in college (1977)
> I remember all the trumpet students walking around with Bach trumpets
> and assumed they were B flat. I was studing piano at that time. I
> never understood why anyone would play a B flat instrument. Why not
> just use a C trumpet and forget about transposing. I know there are
> concertos and other works specifically written for the B flat trumpet.
> Can these works be found transposed for the C trumpet?
Sure. I play C in orchestra as it is easier for me to transpose to.
Doesn't ever mean I'd part with my Bb.
>Would that be
> an acceptable thing to do, or should a concerto for B flat trumpet be
> played on a B flat instrument?
Depends. Some works, like the Halsey Stevens, require a Bb due to range
considerations (low concert F). Other works simply a "feel" better on
Bb. For example, the Arutunian Concerto, as well as most of the
"Russian school" of solo and orchestra literature, is written with the
Bb trumpet in mind. The French school, however, is generally a C
trumpet dominated school, both in terms of orchestral parts and solo
works. Many of the french works come with only a C trumpet part
(Tomasi, Chaynes, some of the Bozza, Jolivet).
> The B flat I own, Olds Opera, I really don't want to play very often
> althought it plays wonderfully.
You just bought it a week ago.......howcould you know already? Could it
be the horn has not received a fair chance?
> The sound I want is the Bach sound
> that I'm used to.
You should have saved the $3000 and bought a Bach, then.
> Now my question has become, do I go with C or B
> flat?
With the funding you have, get both. The money you spent on the Opera
would have bought both already.....
>This is only for my own enjoyment and not part of an orchestra.
> Is it useless to own a C trumpet if I don't play in an orchestra?
Sure. If you play in a church orchestra, or read from a hymnal, it is
less transposition. Of course,the transposition is not that hard.....
Ralph Caccese
perfect sense. The Olds I bought was on impulse and it does sound
great, but I would like to keep it in "new" condition. I don't really
believe in buying instruments as furniture or show items, but I guess
that's what I did with the Olds. It's the only trumpet I own. All my
other horns are cornets. I would like to get a horn for eveyday
playing and for classical music. Sounds like the Bach 180-37 would fit
the need. I'll try several rather than mail order. I'm sure the yamaha
is good, but if I bought that I'd only buy a Bach down the road. I did
that with my piano. Bought Yamaha then Kawai, then Schimmel then
Steinway. Should have just bought the Steinway from the begining. I
always think my playing is'nt good enough for the best instrument.
Sooner or later I desire the sound that only the instruments the pros
play can provide. That doesn't mean I can get the sound, but at least
the instrument has the potential. By the way, the title of this thread
should be "Bach 180-37" not 189. That probably got your attention, but
it was a mistake, sorry. To eveyone who answered, thanks for your
patients. They were all very helpful.
Ralph Caccese
"Dr. Trumpet" <dr_trpt-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<sCHP9.226$Wb.4...@news.iquest.net>...
Catzz66
Well, that's not quite what I meant, but you answered my question. Thanks.
David C. Stephens
necessarily be an improvement over a new Yamaha, while a Steinway is clearly
a superior piano.
Like many have said, try a bunch of each (Bach, Yamaha, King V1, etc.) and
buy the best one. Don't get caught up in the brand name thing and trust your
ears and chops. Also, if you really want to do a really good comparison,
take the time to fly to visit one of the really good dealers in the country
that have a great selection of horns. Don't restrict yourself to one brand,
but seek out the "classic US trumpet sound" that you desire. A ticket two
weeks in advance with an overnight Saturday stay can be had for around $200
from almost anywhere in the contiguous states. With luck, you could mix in a
great symphony performance or some great live jazz.
Happy hunting.
Dave
"Ralph Caccese" <rcacc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dccb1622.02122...@posting.google.com...
David Finton
> The B flat I own, Olds Opera, I really don't want to play very often
>althought it plays wonderfully. The sound I want is the Bach sound
>that I'm used to. Now my question has become, do I go with C or B
I'd be very interested in your opinion as to the difference
between the Olds Opera sound and the Bach sound. I'm a big
fan of the Bach sound, but the ad copy for the Opera made me
think that it might be something like a Bach 43 pipe / 72 bell
combo.
--David Finton
David Finton
>Buy the Bach 180/37 or the Yamaha equivilent (6445, I believe). You'll
>be fine (we use the 180/37 here at the Met when we play Bb).
Peter, thanks for your expertise. But I'm curious about the other
alternate Bach bells. For example, didn't Schwarz play the Bach
180-43? I think Herseth told my brother to get either the 43 bell
or the 72, and my brother ended up with a 72 bell and 43 leadpipe
--a really gorgeous horn. I'd be really interested in knowing
how symphonic trumpet players view the alternate bells (43, 72)
and other options (such as heavy bells, gold brass, sterling silver).
Maybe the 37 bell is favored because of its projection, but I wonder
if part of the popularity is due to other considerations: greater
availability, versatility (more "middle of the road").
--David Finton
Hamhock
Orchestra, church group, quintets/quartets, solos?
You're right on the money about the Steinways. It was sad to watch their
decline in quality during the late 80's after the sale of the company and
the loss of the old craftsmen.
Dr. Trumpet
fin...@alumni.cs.wisc.edu (David Finton) wrote:
David,
My Opera plays very much like the 72 large bore my trumpet teacher had
when I was in college. I like the way the Opera plays, for all things.
Were I to send my Monette in for repair, I'd play the Opera. Too bad I
am selling it......
AL
Ralph Caccese
> >Who says pros don't want the horn to play well "out of the box"?
>
> Well, that's not quite what I meant, but you answered my question. Thanks.
Tried to send you an email, but it wouldn't go through.
Peter Bond
I believe Cliff Blackburn was the first person to mention it to me.
Something to do with the compromises designers are forced to make
reconciling acoustical laws, brasswind physics and the tempered scale.
He said something to the effect that he could make a perfectly in-tune
trumpet, but that the sound would be so boring, that I wouldn't care.
Peter Bond
Dr. Trumpet
It has to do with flexibility of the pitch verses the overtone series.
The greater the strength of the "slots", the more "locked" they are, the
less flexible the horn becomes to make the adjustments we are required
to make. Additionally, the more foucsed the tone becomes, the more the
series of overtones projected becomes reduced. For example, the flute
can be made to be perfectly in tune, but the tone of the flute loses all
warmth. Hence, conical bodies and conical head joints.
A great deal of research has been done by some makers into the effect of
getting that focus of sound while maintaining the robust tone quality.
Remember that for our ears, the major third needs to be placed a little
low compared to where it is on the horn, and the minor third raised a
little. Many other examples of this pitch adjustment are present. Also
recall that the E, Eb, D area of the trumpet is flat, due to the fact
that these partials are flat in the overtone series. High C is also
flat. These things are all part of the challenges of making a great
trumpet with enough flexibility to play well with others, verses a horn
that sounds great and is in tune overall.
i could go on for days......but I must sleep now!
Al
bach37
I recently read that the Met Opera performs 7 days a week. Whew! Can you
tell us about your job? Thanks.
-Scott
bach37
Easy there Al. Mr. Bond knows what he's talking about. He's in the Met
Opera orch. for peat's sake.
-S
Wayne Trager
I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything, but I must. Peter Bond was
voicing his opinion, and so was Al. Both of these two gentlemen are
competent players. Both of these players are knowledgeable, and both
of them are entitled to their opinion. BTW, I tend to agree with Al on
this one, and I live in the NYC area.
Sincerely,
Wayne
http://groups.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk/_whatsnew.msnw
Peter Bond
We perform 7 operas a week, which is not quite the same thing. Sundays
are off for the orchestra except for series of symphonic concerts at
Carnegie hall, which take place 4 times a year.
During the 32 week New York opera season, there are usually four
operas running on alternate evenings, with upcoming operas in
rehearsal during the day. A typical week looks like this:
Mon Tues Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
off 11am Reh. Reh. Reh. Reh. 1:30 Perf. off
Jenufa Jenufa Jenufa Jenufa Fledermaus
8pm perf. 7:30 8pm 8pm 8pm 8pm off
Carmen Fledermaus Aida Giovanni Carmen Aida
The trumpet section has two principals and three section players who
rotate on parts. Orchestra members are only required by contract to
play 4 performances a week, and since most operas have only 2 or 3
trumpets in the pit, it works out pretty well. We are paid extra if we
play a 5th performance (which we can refuse), and we have a "pool" of
extra trumpets (regular subs) who are called on for the frequent stage
work. Aida for example, has 2 in the pit and 8 on stage (6 in costume
playing the famous fanfare horns and 2 others out of sight).
It averages out to 8 services per week, which is similar to a major
symphony orchestra schedule (rehearsals and performances count as a
service). The difference is in the service length; Carmen is 3.75 hrs,
Aida: 4hrs, Giovanni: 4hrs, F'maus: 3hrs, etc. Wagner and Berlioz can
go 6 hours. Average rehearsal length is 3 hrs.
An average Met violinist works 200 hour more each year than his or her
NY Philharmonic counterpart (this from a study our orchestra committee
did two years ago).
Of course, unlike string players, brass players in the opera have a
lot of down time, which makes for unusual challenges; coming in
correctly, chops going "cold" (playing difficult or delicate licks
after 15-20 minutes off), and boredom (we usually cannot see the
stage). It's a good job, albeit a strange one.
If I am not assigned to a particular opera (for example, I am off of
Jenufa), I will have all of it's rehearsals off, which can make for a
week of free days; a nice change of pace during a normally very heavy
season.
The most unique thing about an opera trumpet job is the frequent stage
work, which can range from 1-2 minutes of playing backstage in street
clothes(Traviata, Fidelio) to costumed roles which involve
memorization, "acting" and stage direction (Elisir d'Amore) or
marching bands (Boheme).
After the NY season, there are concerts and touring. Summer vacation
is 8+ weeks, which sounds extravagant until you've played a couple of
seasons; it comes just in time to keep the players from going
"postal."
Note: This was written on a Monday morning "off."
Peter Bond
2nd trumpet, Metropolitan Opera
(11th season)
Dr. Trumpet
bach37 <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Scott,
I know Pete. We've talked about a lot of things. And, if he says he
gets good horn to trial, he does.
My point, poorly made, is that most dealers will hand a better horn to a
finer player. When I go to Paige's or Pro Winds to shop for myself, I
get good horns. When I shop with students, we play all the
horns.....some are dogs. I think the dealers know who to they are
dealing with. So, I have tried a new tactic. I always shop for
"myself"! The horns have improved!
AL
Wayne Trager
AL brings up a very good point Scott! I try to make it a habit of
going to the store with my students when they are going to buy a new
horn, or I meet them there. This procedure makes a world of
difference. I send them to a very reputable dealer, but even then if
the salesmen know I'll be there trying out the horns with my students,
they tend to get a better horn initially.
Sincerely,
Wayne
http://groups.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk
Steven J. Ross
dealers might get a few dogs at a discount knowing that they will sell them
for the same price as the good horns because most kids buy the name and
don't really test them?
Best Wishes, Steve Ross
Dr. Trumpet
"Steven J. Ross" <sro...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Al, I know this is probably just paranoia but do you think the large volume
> dealers might get a few dogs at a discount knowing that they will sell them
> for the same price as the good horns because most kids buy the name and
> don't really test them?
>
> Best Wishes, Steve Ross
Steve,
Not paranoia at all, IMHO. You have hit the nail on the head. I think
they know EXACTLY what they have in stock, whether its A or B stock, etc.
Every other dealer of merchandise knows exactly what they have in
inventory and the quality level of that inventory. Why would horn
sellers be any different.
At ITG 2000, Rayburn had probably 500 Bach trumpets there for sale, at
like $899 and $999 in lacquer and in silver. I played some. Most
played poorly. A few good ones, and they all disappeared pretty fast.
The dogs were what was left by the third and fourth day. Am I to assume
that Rayburn didn't know what they had? Of course not.
AL
Peter Bond
So why not play the "Opera," sell the Monette, and buy a new car?
(sorry, I couldn't resist extending your own logic.)
Peter Bond
Dr. Trumpet
trump...@aol.com (Peter Bond) wrote:
I would, but the Opera doesn't do as well in jazz as the Monette does.
The Opera is a great second instrument, but not a number one horn. And,
I have a superb old Bach Bb 37 ML that I won't part with, so with three
great horns, one has to go. The Bach and the Monette are more versatile
horns than the Opera. The Opera would be a great trumpet for someone.
Glad you asked Pete.
Hope you're well!
AL
Ralph Caccese
Wow Peter. It's awfully nice of you to take the time to give us an
inside look at the orchestra pit. This is the closest I'll come to
knowing how things are done. What do you do for fun on your days off,
practise :)?????
Ralph Caccese
Hi Al. I'll take for $4,000, no, make that $4,500.
Ralph (Opera owner)
Dr. Trumpet
rcacc...@yahoo.com (Ralph Caccese) wrote:
Ralph,
No, you've already got one at that price!!
AL
Catzz66
a little prettier to me than a Bach 37 or 72. Be advised that I am an Olds
fanatic, but that's what I think. Anyways, that is what I play instead of a
Bach. I am not suggesting that you buy one, just try one. I think they have a
nice round sound. They are still pretty plentiful but are about the most
expensive used Olds. FWIW, I paid $500 for mine. It was in pretty rough shape
and little by little I have been fixing it up.
bach37
same model play differently. He said that brass is cut from big flat
sheets to be used in making the trumpet. This brass has grains moving in
particular directions, just like with wood. When the trumpet is
assembled, the grains in the brass material along with the bracing
involved in making a trumpet put the brass under stress. The stresses
and patterns of grain are different for every trumpet made.
However, he said that what is a "bad" trumpet to one person, is "the
one"- an excellent trumpet for another. He said he has sat at countless
booths with a row of identical V-1's, and seen different people point
out which are "dogs" and which aren't. He said that what one person
considers a bad trumpet is "THE" trumpet which another person buys.
-Scott
Dr. Trumpet
bach37 <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Scott,
Here is a list of some of the things that have made me discount certain
horns from consideration, and negative aspects which have made me reject
instruments for myself or for students:
1. Poorly aligned valves in down stroke.
2. Poorly fit slides, either too loose or far too tight, too short, too
long (tuning slides that all the way in still will not close).
3. Severe stuffiness of tone caused by solder build-up at joints from
sloppy assembly.
4. Mouthpiece insert that won't hold any mouthpiece correctly (and with
measuring, found that the gap was either huge or non-existant, depending
upon the defect).
5. Fit and finish flaws that make the horn look awful (parents won't
pay for a new trumpet that looks bad, no matter how good it plays).
6. Odd bracing and fit on the bell, in terms of excess soldering
material or placement of the braces in odd locations.
7. Great playing instruments with severed flaws in the finish - plating
flaking, lacquer off the horn, runs, drips, errors.....
These are things that are not "personal preference" as Fred mentions.
Fred's horns are some of the best on the market right now, and having
played over two dozen of them, I can say that they are free of the above
errors. My flugel did have an ill fitted screw for the tuning slide,
but they fixed it promptly and made things right.
AL
Ralph Caccese
I would love to try a Mendez, but where to find one. There are
several on ebay, including a Mendez cornet, but I've been banned for
excessive use of my funds. That's a new category my wife just informed
me of. It's the only Olds I don't have. Well, not quite but close. I
don't have a Super. I forgot I have a Recording. It's in the shop
getting a few dings taken out of the bell. That is a really beautiful
sounding instrument. Very mellow. Not like the Opera at all. Two
completely different horns. I thnk that's why I too like Olds
instruments. Each model is very different and they all have their own
character. I learned on an Ambassador cornet I bought in a pawn shop.
I still have it and it's darn good. I could have bought 60 of them for
the price I paid for the Opera. I'm still glad I have that Opera. It's
turming out to be a famous horn.
P.S. I'll probably get the Mendez too. My uncle used to call me 'meat
head'. Smart, my uncle.
Guess who?
blueprint they would really damage their competition.
Bryan Fields
> I would love to try a Mendez, but where to find one. There are
> several on ebay, including a Mendez cornet, but I've been banned for
> excessive use of my funds. That's a new category my wife just informed
> me of.
My wife is starting a business out of our home. I have told her that
when she gets stinking rich I will quit my job, buy about twenty horns
on my wish list (of about 100) and practice all day.
She still doesn't quite understand why I have five now and still want
more. It's the trumpet sickness for which the only cure is hopeless
poverty...
jan
Guess who? <brianda...@comcast.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
74f77e5e.02123...@posting.google.com...
Ken Fung
1. Frequestly, braces/parts are not fitting well. Branches are pushed or
pulled against each other. And you don't know that until you unsolder them.
2. Tubes are not always aligned well, valve slides or even the tuning
slide. I do not have the technique to align them perfectly yet but when
compression in the slides is removed (or much removed) the horn can open
up dramatically. (Any help or suggestion most appreciated.)
3. I do not know if it is always the factory but I have caught many
defects. (May have been a repairman if the horn has been repaired.) In
one of the horns I worked on, the mouthpiece receiver is oversized (or
the leadpipe undersized). The tip of the leadpipe was expanded to fit
and I saw very rough work there. Another horn has the concealed part of
the bell crook out of round and of irreqular thinkness!
It is amazing horns like these can play fairly okay most of the time but
I believe it must be a difficult task to pick a stock horn that plays
extremely well.
(FYI, I have put up my projects at:
http://homepage.mac.com/fkm/hornproject/project1.html)
Happy New Year!
Kenneth
Peter Bond
> What do you do for fun on your days off,
> practise :)?????
Yup.
Joel
Great job, Kenneth! As previously, I will translate your latest projects into
French and add them to http://joeleymard.free.fr/Kenneth/Kenneth.htm
because most French musicians cannot read English.
Best wishes!
Joel Eymard
http://la.trompette.free.fr
Catzz66
>>I believe it must be a difficult task to pick a stock horn that plays
>>extremely well.
>>
Most of my experience has been with used Bach horns. I have really not seen
hardly any of the problems others of you have experienced. Maybe people would
have better luck dealing with second hand horns. I don't doubt anybody's word,
but maybe a person is better off looking at second hand horns. Perhaps you are
less likely to find one with terminal problems.
Dr. Trumpet
brianda...@comcast.net (Guess who?) wrote:
> Al you are right on. If Bach would make horns accorcding to their
> blueprint they would really damage their competition.
Amen to that, Brian. If they just made them like the designs were
supposed to be done, Bach would have no competition. That Laskey and
Pinc can take ANY Bach trumpet and make it play great says there is a
lot of quality in the horns.
Someone got mad when I suggested it is all cost related on TPIN, but the
bottom line is it IS all cost related.
AL
Ralph Caccese
What a fabulous job.
But then there's contracts, negotiations, etc. Nothing's perfect, only
the music. I know you earned it inch by inch, but I still envy you.
People like you make the world better.
Ken Fung
enough)....mostly of some age but not always. The batches of instruments
I have seen since last years have been consistently good, for instance.
If someone do a research, perhaps we can find out when the factory
produce nice ones and when they turn out dogs.
I believe we cannot see many of the problems I mentioned if we do not
unsolder the parts. But currently, there are about a dozen or so Strads
in use among my students, about 4 or 5 them have compressed tuning
slides. Actually, it was the students who compared their horns and
discovered the irregularities among them.
If you play test a horn and find it to play well, probably manufacturing
faults will be few. Here in Hong Kong, we do not have a large selection
at the local dealer, many students mail ordered their horns (they can
save some bucks). That may explain why I have so many dogs over here to
work with.....
Ken Fung
The Bach trumpets do have lots of potential, they can indeed play great
when things are right. On the other hand it may be very time consumming
to build a horn exactly right. I do not know how fast a trained
technician can do it but it usually takes me 10 to 15 minutes to find a
good position for a brace, 30 to 45 minutes to shape it until it fit
well, then another few minutes to solder it on. Cleaning up will take
some more time. It is indeed very time consumming to build a horn. The
more time the factory invest in building a horn, the more costly it is.
I do not know if my information is 100% correct but I have been told
Yamaha can assemble their lowest grade student horn (YTR1335) in just 45
seconds! Anyone konw how much time it takes for Bach to assemble a Strad?
Kenneth
Catzz66
>faults will be few. Here in Hong Kong, we do not have a large selection
>at the local dealer, many students mail ordered their horns (they can
>save some bucks). That may explain why I have so many dogs over here to
>work with.....
That is one of the reasons I would not really have any grounds to disagree with
you or Al. It stands to reason that a company that mass markets its horns and
can sell just about everything they make would not worry about quality control
as much as some of the other manufacturers and as much as we think they ought
to. All of this discussion has definitely changed the way I think about
ordering a horn from just about any big retailer. At this point, I probably
would not do it, no matter what the brand. I realize some people really have
no choice but to do get their instruments that way though.