Superchops' vs. Screamin vs. Stevens
joel
A Question for Pops' or anyone else that knows:
Having purchased the Screamin' system and having a book
on Superchops, I have the following questions:
(1) What is the difference between Screamin' and Superchops?
From what I know, both the Screamin' and Superchops
use a bunched chin, bringing the pivot above the top
teeth. Is this wrong?
(2) Do either of Screamin' and/or Superchops use a closed
(touching) embouchure? It seems to me that if both
of these embouchures are low-pressure, then it would
follow that they are closed embouchures.
(3) If Superchops and Screamin' are both lips-in closed
embouchures, then is the difference between them and
the Stevens just the bunched chin/pivot ? Isn't it
true that Superchops/Screamin/Stevens all use corners
in for extreme range?
I'm just trying to understand the differences in these
systems. Although I'd prefer to embark on the Stevens
from what I've read, I'd still like to understand
Superchops vs. Screamin vs. Stevens better. (Help Pops'!!!)
- Joel Schoenblum
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Pops
The Stevens does NOT:
1. let the lip slide over the teeth,
2. roll the lower lip over the lower teeth,
3. tongue through the teeth,
4. say no tongue arch,
5. bunch the chin,
6. have a need to in Callets' own words 'Retrieve the lower lip on each
breath.' (Meaning shift the chops back to normal.)
Screamin well I was told to NOT mention that system. (Unprofessional was
what they said.) Some of Bill's students read this list. So ask them
about it.
I do have the video.
I don't teach Screamin.
I teach trumpet playing.
Information about my trumpet & embouchure books.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com
Best wishes
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
Lex Samu
Superchops embouchure...Callet taught Bill to play this way. The players I
work with who use the Superchops/Screamin approach work mainly as lead
players...they have a strong sound and are pretty strong and powerful in the
upper register. The players I play with who use the Stevens/Upstream
approach usually lose power in the upper range and lack control...as well as
have connection problems..BUT I do know a great jazz trumpet player who
plays this way with great success...he may not have incredible
range/endurance..but he can blow!..if you visited Pops website he explains
somewhat about a variation on the Stevens technique that doesn't have to be
upstream...in fact this is how I believe I'm playing now after studying (and
continuing to study) with one of the best chop teachers anywhere. ...it
involes first getting the chops very balanced through lip buzzing, caruso,
flexibility ttechniques and then, WHEN READY, going to exercises (Stamp)
that have you going into the pedal register and coming out of it..going into
the extreme upper register...what I think this is teachiog primarily is
keeping the teeth open....this seems to be a key..as well as having the same
embouchure from low to high....so this does employ pedal note technique as a
tool but not in the traditional way which I think focuses more on a pucker
method. The most powerful lead and all around trumpet players I know in
terms of just a physical approach to the instrument are playing this way.
The most important thing to know is how you want to play musically and then
find the technique to play that way.
joel <joel.schoen...@sciatl.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:37fa504d...@usw-ex0109-069.remarq.com...
Scott Humphries
Pops
A key feature in maintaining an open airway is a pivot. You could write
hundreds of pages about this. But that's already been done.
In a nutshell by raising or lowering the bell of your horn while you are
playing you can maintain a more open airway and clearer tone.
As you play higher and lower the air stream will slightly move in the
mouthpiece. If we can keep it lined up with the throat hole the sound is
better.
The SLIGHT bell movement will produce an opposite movement or
realignment of our lips to the mouthpiece.
Now which way do you move the bell?
I can't tell you without seeing you play. That has to do with whether
you are an upstream or downstream player, mouthpiece placement (50-50,
1/3-2/3, 2/3-1/3.....), embouchure used and relationship between the
sizes of your top and bottom lip.
You can determine this for yourself.
Try this test .
Play a low g 1-3. Move the bell up then move it down. One way should
improve the sound.
When you move to a lower note from now on always pivot this direction.
The opposite direction will aid the upper notes. This is a good movement
whenever you have to leap between notes.
Rick Sonntag
Nice explanation on the pivot. I've heard your name mentioned before
(always in a very favorable context), but know little about your background
and theories. Did you study with, or otherwise familiarize yourself with,
Don Reinhardt's stuff? You sound very much like him here.
By the way, for anyone who is curious, the latest ITG journal has a very
nice biography of Don Reinhardt.
Rick Sonntag
--Reinhard's least accomplished student ;-)
Trayne102
>--Reinhard's least accomplished student ;-)
I disagree Rick! I always thought that was me! ôż~
schoe
> Screamin embouchure is the
> Superchops embouchure...Callet taught Bill to play
> this way.
If this is true, then Carmichael is guilty of
obfuscation as well as the usual super-hype: "the final
embouchure", c'mon now.
> work with who use the Superchops/Screamin approach
> work mainly as lead
> players...they have a strong sound and are pretty
> strong and powerful in the
> upper register. The players I play with who use the
> Stevens/Upstream
> approach usually lose power in the upper range and
> lack control...
Pops' site clearly contradicts this notion, and from the
numerous testimonials I've been given, I must agree. The
lead player who preceded me in Atlanta's Sentimental
Journey Orchestra (SJO, www.thesjo.com), Jeff Fulgham, is
a Stevens player and has the most powerful chops all-around
I've ever heard next to me on the bandstand (I've never
heard anything like him in person). Not that
superchops/screamin' don't produce quality lead players as
well. Although, someone years ago someone mentioned that
Callet's upper register,while there, was very thin.
While I've appreciated the answers to my questions, I'm
still curious as to whether or not superchops is a "closed"
embouchure like Stevens (what I prefer to call a "buzzing"
embouchure, since Farkas players (most of us) with open
lips do not buzz while we play). It seems to me it must be
closed to allow the upper register without pressure, but
I'm waiting on confirmation for sure.
Pops
make it sound right.
BTW there is a point in everyones range where it gets smaller. That's
why Ferguson didn't record any quad C's. Most people reach a point and
stop working past that. If you don't practice triple or quad C's they
can't be strong. But do you see a need to play that high at a gig? Who
would really want to hear it?
The highest note ever.
For 99% of the high note players the highest NOTE (these have fullness
and tone quality) is B under double high c. There are some that can play
double high c as a note. There are of course recordings of e's, f's &
g's above that. The problem here is that I heard the same player hit
pitches at some times and play notes at other times. So to say that g
over double high c is a note is clearly stretching. It is sometimes a
note.
I judge them against the true trumpet range. After all squeels are not
impressive.
That's what I teach.
Stuart Anthony Collidge
posts for some reason.
Cheers,
Stuart
Trayne102 wrote in message <20000701075851...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
David Finton
>> work with who use the Superchops/Screamin approach
>> work mainly as lead
>> players...they have a strong sound and are pretty
>lead player who preceded me in Atlanta's Sentimental
[. . .]
>superchops/screamin' don't produce quality lead players as
>well. Although, someone years ago someone mentioned that
>Callet's upper register,while there, was very thin.
Interesting that you're all talking about lead playing.
Are there any classical / symphony types who use these
embouchures? I'd be interested in knowing the trade-offs
which might make these embouchures well-suited for different
kinds of playing or for different kinds of players.
If my ambition is to sound like Herseth or Philip Smith,
and I don't care about double-C's, should I be interested
in Superchops or Screamin?
--David Finton
Pops
I could name LOTS of legit, crossover and jazz players who play the
Stevens. I could also name pros who play Maggio, Farkas.....
There are 5 main ways that this lip compression is obtained.
1. The entire chop setting is drawn toward the center. Corners pulled in
and top and bottom lip pulled together. Like the drawstring example in
the Farkas book or the making a fist in Jacoby's book or the diagram in
Callet's book. Three different embouchures that all use the same method
of lip compression.
2. Using the muscles of the chin to push the lower lip into the top lip.
This creates a knot of muscle at the chin and it moves the center
portion of the lower lip.
3. Using the muscles of a frown to
compress the lips together. The Roy Roman bulldog face. A frown will
pull the top lip down slightly as it pushes the center part of the
bottom lip upward.
4. Using the jaw to assist register changes. This is the way Roy Stevens
taught. He started with a very open jaw (tooth) position. That way he
could bring the lips in toward each other in more compression by moving
the jaw upward. (This is fine if you make sure to keep the teeth apart
at all times.)
The interesting part is these techniques work with more than 1
embouchure setting. (The lips do have to touch.) I gave examples of 3
different embouchure settings for #1 but that applies for all 4 types of
compression above.
5. Is done by use of a pucker. The compression is partially created by
the lips in their pucker and partly by the mouthpiece holding them in
place. This can only be used in 2 of the 4 main embouchure systems.
Now the problem is that there are good and bad examples of players on
ALL embouchures.
Plus there is partial information on lots of embouchures. The guys who
don't keep their teeth open didn't learn it all from their teachers. The
guys who sound bright didn't learn about aperture shapes.
But in all fairness some of those guys don't stick with 1 teacher long
enough to get anywhere. Lots of people take A lesson (or even a few)
from lots of different teachers. This can be detrimental to ones
playing. They may take their Stevens, Superchops or Maggio embouchure to
a teacher who only understands the Farkas. Some things mix ok (not great
but ok). While other ideas are like 'Mixing sand and water. The result
is Mud.' Also just how much can be taught in an hour. I do some all day
lessons for that reason. While the student is resting I can explain a
different aspect that they could work on.
Finally just because you use the same embouchure, mouthpiece, trumpet or
method book as a famous player does not mean you will sound like them.
Think about toothpaste ads. Just because you use xyz toothpaste it
doesn't mean your love life will improve.
You have to LOOK at where and why the info is presented.
I never said everyone who used my stuff WILL play triple C's. That is
why I avoided the catchy names like 'Scream like Maynard on your first
try'. That is also why I have 3 books and am writing another. There is a
lot of info needed to switch embouchures quickly with success. I don't
belive that the student needs to stop playing inorder to change. I teach
changes in steps to allow them to keep playing in public showing only
progress.
dlwi...@my-deja.com
> If my ambition is to sound like Herseth or Philip Smith,
> and I don't care about double-C's, should I be interested
> in Superchops or Screamin?
>
> --David Finton
This is an excellent question. Surely there are trade-offs with any
embouchure. I would also be interested in Pops' advice to those who
want to produce an orchestral sound.
Don Winters
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
WWise72606
Stevens. I could also name pros who play Maggio, Farkas.....
>>
I just had a funny thought.
I had not heard of all these names for chop settings before I got a computer.
Not in NY or Philly,my home town, or in any of the many other places I have
lived.
Stevens was alive in NY when I first moved here.
Carmine was one of the regulars at Jim and Andy's, a great bar where all the
musicians hung.
We never talked about what seems to be a hot topic here.
I think we trumpet players overcomplicate our lives.
Wilmer
joel
> before I got a computer.
> Not in NY or Philly,my home town, or in any of the
> many other places I have
> lived.
> Stevens was alive in NY when I first moved here.
> Carmine was one of the regulars at Jim and Andy's, a
> great bar where all the
> musicians hung.
> We never talked about what seems to be a hot topic
> here.
> I think we trumpet players overcomplicate our lives.
> Wilmer
You really hit the nail on the head here. I hadn't heard
of the various embouchures either until I got a computer.
But I think we trumpet players UNDER complicate our lives,
not OVER complicate them.
On our instrument, most teachers don't know about what is
happening with the embouchure. Many of them don't even
know themselves what embouchures they play, no less the
student. We have top pros, people like Alan Vizzuti making
a videotape where he says that the teacher should leave the
student alone with regard to embouchure, and not to look in
the mirror. "paralysis by overanalysis". Then my question
is: what exactly is there left to teach then?
Drummers have two ways of holding drumsticks, and while
there are pros and cons to matched-grip vs. standard-grip,
the two types are well-known to all. There are a number of
different piano teaching methods, but even if a teacher
doesn't know all of them, he/she usually knows the one they
are using well-enough and understand the philosophy of the
others.
It is a sad state of affairs that most trumpet players do
not know what kinds of embouchures there are, how they
work, and the pros and cons of each. Our lives are UNDER
complicated. We need to complicate them. We need learning
materials like Pops' books. We need all or most of our
trumpet/brass teachers to understand these concepts, and
then trumpeters won't need a computer to find out what
embouchure he's playing (20 years later).
dlwi...@my-deja.com
Thanks for your thorough response. It helped to clarify the issue.
Pops
There are several reasons why I teach and tell more to my
students than you've experienced before.
1. Most players were taught by either non trumpet playing H.S. Band
Directors or by players that have limited experience. Since nobody can
teach more than they know the pool of knowledge shrinks.
2. College education for trumpet performance is different than for
teaching. Most college teachers prior to 10 years ago were general Music
Ed majors or performance majors. General music may teach alot about the
chant but it does not cover the trumpet well. As for performance majors
they study how to play certain pieces. If they play well they never
study playing problems and solutions, or other embouchures. After all
the college teacher assumes that if the student plays well then there is
no reason to discuss embouchures or tonguing. (Except to pass on
teaching.)
3. One of my college teachers was a trumpet player and for his PhD he
studied and wrote about the natural trumpet in the 1700's. Did this
prepare him to teach current trumpet techniques or waste a year of his
life. He was a very nice man but college did not attempt to provide what
he needed.
4. Those who have made it to the college level and deserve it don't
teach teachers. They teach performers and overall trumpet education
still suffers because the information never filters down to the H.S.
level.
5. FEAR !!!!!
Some player feel that knowledge is some kind of voodoo.
They think that if they ever look at how they play they will never
relax again. That is not true.
That is also why I teach embouchure changes in steps. So the student can
keep playing. And so that there is NOT an imformation overload.
I've met trumpet players who told me that taking trumpet lessons would
be a waste of time and money. I know for a fact that one of these guys
takes golf lessons.
(I guess his golf game is more important.)
Most people are smarter than they think they are. They really can learn.
They just have to try.
Trayne102
>
>A key feature in maintaining an open airway is a pivot. You could write
>hundreds of pages about this. But that's already been done.
>
>In a nutshell by raising or lowering the bell of your horn while you are
>playing you can maintain a more open airway and clearer tone.
>
>As you play higher and lower the air stream will slightly move in the
>mouthpiece. If we can keep it lined up with the throat hole the sound is
>better.
>
>The SLIGHT bell movement will produce an opposite movement or
>realignment of our lips to the mouthpiece.
>
>Now which way do you move the bell?
>I can't tell you without seeing you play. That has to do with whether
>you are an upstream or downstream player, mouthpiece placement (50-50,
>1/3-2/3, 2/3-1/3.....), embouchure used and relationship between the
>sizes of your top and bottom lip.
>
>You can determine this for yourself.
>
>Try this test .
>
>Play a low g 1-3. Move the bell up then move it down. One way should
>When you move to a lower note from now on always pivot this direction.
>
>The opposite direction will aid the upper notes. This is a good movement
>whenever you have to leap between notes.
>