vintage horns
JoeGuy
refurbish antique martins, this vintage horn thing has gor me going. i own a
30 year old eterna 900S and a three year old bach fluegelhorn. i have to
say, there's no comparison in the workmanship. robert getzen's horn is
better.
looking at doc's newly refurbished boston cornet, i'm owndering if these
old herns, long considered junkers, are actually better than anything made
new. i believe they are. it's like a gibson les paul. they still can't
recreate a 59 flametop, because the woods are gone.
i'm going to look for an old conn cornet from the 20's, and get it fixed
like new. i'll let you know how i come out.
Tommy T.
instruments you have in the house from which to choose.
When Callet's shop was up on the edge of Harlem, I was playing the original,
super large New York model Callet Bb trumpet. I asked whether Callet could
make a cornet along the same lines. He declined but his repairman told me
that they had a restored Boston Cornet that was the best playing cornet he
had ever seen. I went down just to play it and was seriously underwhelmed.
It did not play with the ease of a modern cornet. It had a lot of
resistance, lacked flexibility and didn't slot very well. Especially in the
upper register where the resonances are close together, I had a lot of
trouble finding the pitches cleanly.
I have also played a Conn Victor from the '20's, with the automatic slide
thing for shifting to "A." An interesting collector's piece but not for me
as a daily player. It felt (to the touch, not to the blow) and looked like
an older industrial generation's product. My father owns, and uses as his
regular instrument, a Victor from about '54. The Victor from the '20's
played a lot like Dad's, which, incidently, is a lot like the Conn Director
cornets from the first half of the '60's. And, actually, that's not too
bad. Still, not as effortless as a good new model.
To me that vintage stuff, especially pre-WWII, is like a fully restored
Model T Ford. You know it's not going to beat a new model by any given
test, but you can take pleasure in owning a part of technological history.
My wife owns a semi-classic British sports car and I maintain it for her.
Even compared to an Echo or a Neon, it's underpowered, uncomfortable, noisy
and requires continual attention. It's fun to have and it always makes for
conversation with strangers where ever it is taken but I wouldn't count on
it to get to work every day (if I worked every day) or to get to hospital
when those labor pains hit five minute intervals (thinking in terms of my
daughters here).
Given the quality of many regular production horns, like Yamaha for example;
improvements in metalurgy, using advanced alloys and material; advances in
machine tools, including digital control lathes and the like; and better
understanding of the accoustics of brass instruments and the effect of
design on them, I would have been amazed if I had found a vintage horn that
could measure up to a good new product.
I'm not sure about your reference to prices and boutique horns in this
context. The Boston cornet that I played had been completely disassembled,
reconditioned, then resoldered with great care and refinished to a very high
standard. It's asking price was in the $2000 range. The Victor from the
'20's had been overhauled by a good repair shop and was on the market at
$800.
I bought for $51 a really beat-up old '65 Director to take on my wilderness
trip last summer. That, I think, was a good alternative for a beginning
student who is mature enough not to let dents interfere with ego, but it
sure was no match for my hand-made custom cornet.
Tommy T.
G or C Elliott *
Vintagecornets.com
You'll see some of the finest horns in collections, including a 59 gold
Martin Committee I once owned. Great to look at, but no comparison in
playing to my WT.
Glenn
* Re: Our address...From a Scot ballad, circa 1350:
"Oh, my name is Little Jock Elliot, an' ( wha daur meddle wi' me?")
Guess who?
one will want one in 15 years.
Find an original French Besson. The sound is vastly superior.
Rich
http://www.taylortrumpets.com/large_phoenix.html
What's wrong with you?
R.
"Guess who?" <brianda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:74f77e5e.03111...@posting.google.com...
jazz...@hotmail.com
> I am sick and tired hearing about fad horns. They all sound ugly. No
> one will want one in 15 years.
Someone probably said that about the Martin Committee at one point...
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
Carl Dershem
berlin.de:
> You mean you don't yearn for one of these -
> http://www.taylortrumpets.com/large_phoenix.html
>
> What's wrong with you?
<snort>
That's just plain silly looking.
cd
William Graham
"Rich" <ri...@richiebee.ca> wrote in message
news:borc3u$1h21m4$1...@ID-45734.news.uni-berlin.de...
> You mean you don't yearn for one of these -
> http://www.taylortrumpets.com/large_phoenix.html
>
> What's wrong with you?
>
> R.
>
bell? - Man! - That will give you a square sound!....You don't want to
have anything to do with that.......
JoeGuy
jazz...@hotmail.com
Good for playing square, apparently...
Guess who?
is a certain prettiness in the sound. The horns I am talking about
are downright ugly sounding. Distorted with way too much midrange.
DHoff56012
>is a certain prettiness in the sound. The horns I am talking about
>are downright ugly sounding. Distorted with way too much midrange.
>
>
>> > I am sick and tired hearing about fad horns. They all sound ugly. No
>> > one will want one in 15 years.
>>
Well, basicially it ain't the plumbing, it's the plumber, but I agree that
vintage horns sometimes have a more mellow sound than the modern ones.
Sometimes... sometimes not... there are so many variables, the biggest one
being the person whose face the horn is shoved in.
David
Guess who?
Guess who?
Steve
for squares. :)
Steve
"Rich" <ri...@richiebee.ca> wrote in message
news:borc3u$1h21m4$1...@ID-45734.news.uni-berlin.de...
Carl Dershem
> Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> That's just plain silly looking.
>
> Good for playing square, apparently...
I'll have tio watch lawrence Welk and see if his trumpet section uses
them...
cd
jon_norstog
I like old stuff in general and that includes horns. My current
favorite is a mint King art deco
Silvertone. It's a little tight but has a great jazz tone and stays
on pitch. I've gone through quite a few trumpets to get to my
favorites - the Silvertone, a '50s vintage Besson shepherd's crook
cornet, and a King Silver Sonic symphony "dual bore." I use Monette
mouthpieces pretty much exclusively.
The Besson is especially nice for blues, 'cause it is so short and you
can get your hand into the bell real easy to bend, pull or strangle
notes.
Most of the older horns I've played seem pretty mediocre to me, but
then so do most of the modern ones, including some "name" brands. I am
looking for a chance to try the Selmer 25a and the Getzen doc, people
have told me to try those 2 instruments.
As far as a modern horn goes, I tried a Monette demo at the factory in
Portland and all I could say was "w-o-o-w-w-w". But I couldn't afford
one in a million years.
Well so much chitchat
later
jon norstog
"Thursday"
www.thursdaybicycles.com
"Tommy T." <thomas....@att.net> wrote in message news:<boomp3$1g2lsj$1...@ID-134792.news.uni-berlin.de>...
SiegTrmpt
(made in France) up for sale on. Pictures available on request. Comes with the
original alligator style case. It has the underthrow third slide ring with the
slide stopper on the top. Nice looking a great sounding. $1050. plus shipping
and insurance. Email me privately. Bill S.
DHoff56012
Sure, but the folks that expect to sound like dizzy because he played a
committee, for instance, are going to be sorely disappointed.
Once again.... it's the plumber
David
Zoot
> committee, for instance, are going to be sorely disappointed.
thought diz played a silver flair.
jazz...@hotmail.com
a committee for awhile. (Most of the straight-horn pictures show him with
one, I believe.)
Zoot <aba...@ns-design.com> wrote:
>
> thought diz played a silver flair.
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
Tommy T.
stand on Jan. 6, '53, and after that the Martin Company made his first
intentionally bent horns for him working from a sketch made by his wife
Lorraine. Diz actually tried to patent the bent horn but could do it
because a French manufacturer named DuPont had already made one in 1860s.
Later pictures show a bent horn with a single vertical brace at the end of
the lead pipe, no tuning slide brace and no water keys -- heavily engraved,
that may be the King. He played a bent Selmer for at least a while -- I
have a picture that seems to show the distinctive Selmer little finger hook.
And, Jon Fadis gave him a bent Schilke.
Funny thing, given that I'm sort of an equipment freak, I met Dizzy in
person serveral times but never discussed horns or mouthpieces with him.
He autographed "To BE or not tho BOP" for me at Lulu White's in '79 and we
had a long talk at Sandy's in '82 (where he had a quartet picked up from
Boston locals and there were only four people in the house), then again at
Newport , the first year Jon was with him.
Tommy T.
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> Later pictures show a bent horn with a single vertical brace at the end of
> the lead pipe, no tuning slide brace and no water keys -- heavily engraved,
> that may be the King. He played a bent Selmer for at least a while -- I
> have a picture that seems to show the distinctive Selmer little finger hook.
> And, Jon Fadis gave him a bent Schilke.
I just took a look at a picture a friend's got on his office wall of Diz
from what looks like the 70s. The horn he has in his hand has a reverse
leadpipe (one brace), no water key, and the bent bell is part of the horn
itself.
On the Jazz Casual DVD I bought recently (early 60s), he's playing a horn
on which it *appears* that the bent bell is attached by some doodad. I'll
have to go back and look. I don't know King and Selmer horns well enough
to reognize them on site.
> Funny thing, given that I'm sort of an equipment freak, I met Dizzy in
> person serveral times but never discussed horns or mouthpieces with him.
It never occured to me to look at his horn or ask him about it the couple
of times we (briefly) spoke, but this was very late in his life (late
80s).
> He autographed "To BE or not tho BOP" for me at Lulu White's in '79 and we
> had a long talk at Sandy's in '82 (where he had a quartet picked up from
> Boston locals and there were only four people in the house), then again at
> Newport , the first year Jon was with him.
Diz seemed to me to be a geniunely nice fellow, much more approachable by
mere mortals than some jazz celebs I've met. Clark Terry is another.
Tommy T.
Diz with W.C. Handy in '53 where Handy is holding a bent horn with "doodad,"
reverse lead pipe and no brace. Since the date is '53, it has to be the
Martin.
The single brace horn of which I have a picture does not have a reverse lead
pipe. (You couldn't have useful brace on the leadpipe of a reversed horn
unless it had one of the three layer deals like my Benge and then you can't
tell by a casual look whether it's reversed or not.) I have another shot of
what seems to be the same horn that shows the top of the valve caps. The
felts are under the finger buttons, not on the cap. I think that was King's
style.
I noticed that Jon Faddis didn't have a water key on his Schilke. Don't
think he was influenced by Diz do you?
Tommy T.
DHoff56012
>mere mortals than some jazz celebs I've met. Clark Terry is another.
>
Yes, I found Dizzy very approachable as well. As for Clark, there is nobody
nicer.
David
jazz...@hotmail.com
> I'm pretty sure the one with the "doodad" is a Martin. I have a picture of
> Diz with W.C. Handy in '53 where Handy is holding a bent horn with "doodad,"
> reverse lead pipe and no brace. Since the date is '53, it has to be the
> Martin.
Hmmm. Okay, I'll have to go back and look, seems to me he had probably
outgrown the Martin by the time this TV shot was taken, so perhaps there
was more than one manufacturer making the Diz horn with the attachable
bell.
> The single brace horn of which I have a picture does not have a reverse lead
> pipe. (You couldn't have useful brace on the leadpipe of a reversed horn
> unless it had one of the three layer deals like my Benge and then you can't
> tell by a casual look whether it's reversed or not.) I have another shot of
> what seems to be the same horn that shows the top of the valve caps. The
> felts are under the finger buttons, not on the cap. I think that was King's
> style.
Also Martin! But if it's not a reverse leadpipe, it's not a Committee,
and probably thus not a Martin. (Thinking out loud here.)
It would be interesting to collect the photos of the various horns. Like
Blue Mitchell -- you can pin down his Martin versus Olds periods by album
cover shots.
> I noticed that Jon Faddis didn't have a water key on his Schilke. Don't
> think he was influenced by Diz do you?
That's only the third horn I've seen/heard of without a water key on the
tuning slide. A lurker here (you know who you are, Tom!) has one that was
owned by a lead player in the 60s. I wonder who started that trend...(Jim
will chime in with a Schilke attribution, I bet...!)
Jim Donaldson
>will chime in with a Schilke attribution, I bet...!)
I think it was Diz who started the trend. I think his Kings also had no water
keys if I remember the pictures I've seen correctly. Jon was a follower (but we
all knew that).
My guess that back when Renold Schilke was in his heavy develpment and
experimental phase, if he'd found that water key made much difference he'd have
eliminated it. The water key is still present on the Schilke tunable bell
trumpets even though you could easily empty the horn by a quick (french horn
like) pull of the tuning slide and quickly return it all the way in.
But anybody want to argue with Jon?
Jim Donaldson
Denver Colorado
JFDon...@aol.com
The Schilke Loyalist
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke
JoeGuy
"Jim Donaldson" <jfdon...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20031115202214...@mb-m03.aol.com...