Embouchure Change
Patrick Devlin
lot of other people at my school. It was a group lesson so I did not get a
lot of individual attention. I wish I had, because now I am a freshman in
college as a Music Education major, and my teacher wants me to change my
embouchure.
I had my first formal training this summer, with a trumpet player at the
school I am going to (not the trumpet instructor, but the marching band
instructor). He did not mention anything to me about changing my
embouchure.
Let me tell you a little about my embouchure. My teacher told me my tone is
a little airy. I play with my lips puckered out, and the mouthpiece high
and to the left. It is about 2/3 on top lip and 1/3 on the bottom lip,
which is the opposite of what Arban's recommends. I am playing on a Bach
7C.
My section leader in our school's Big Band has told me that I should not
change my embouchure, and that I have a perfect embouchure. She says I
should not listen to my teacher, who is also her teacher. She also takes
lessons with someone she has been taking lessons with for a long time. She
even showed me an example of someone who our teacher tried to change the
embouchure of, and now he has a really airy tone. She also told me that she
wants me to go and see her other teacher, who is a respectable man and
taught at the Manhatten school of music. The only problem is, is that that
won't happen till the summer. I would like some input now. Some other
relevant information is that I am playing in our Symphonic Wind ensemble
(3rd Trumpet/cornet), Big Band(3rd Trumpet), a Jazz Combo, and Basketball
Pep Band(1st Trumpet).
All Input would be appreciated.
Patrick Devlin
Joe Smith
no need of ambature change...no one can tell you how you should play they can
just sujest things that seem to help them...remember that its not an exact
science,...what ever works for you...do it
Patrick Devlin
move the mouthpiece to the center of my lips, and move it down.
Patrick Devlin
Patrick Devlin <pdev...@home.com> wrote in message
news:TA0%3.16071$ra7.3...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
Jeff Wildman
you and be of little consequence. Many players find a natural resting place for
the mouthpiece. Some play dead center, others (many) play off to one side for
various reasons.
Although others may disagree, I have found that 2/3 top lip is tricky because it
is more prone to sound cutting out if you aren't concentrating on keeping the
top and bottom teeth parallel. The jaw becomes critical, especially since you
indicated that you also pucker. If your jaw is receeding (especially as you
tire), I believe that you have all the ingredients for not only the airy tone,
but likely are stiffling chances of promoting the lip vibration needed for tone,
endurance and range. This will also have an effect based on how you currently
direct your airstream (upstream, downstream etc.)
Also: have you tried any other mouthpieces? I have found (and others in this
group have concurred) that the Bach 7C is quite lethal, both from a sound/tone
perspective and its fairly sharp inner edge. I have found that the Bach 7C has a
razor-sharp rim, matched only by those horrid Olds 3C's that they used to hand
out in high school. A larger cup diameter might also make the "feel" of a 50/50
mouthpiece placement attempt more natural to you or at least less of a drastic
embouchure change should you attempt to change your current setup.
There are many fine players who participate in this group who I'm sure will be
able to offer you some helpful advice.
Jeff Wildman
Christopher Barry
It's definitley possible to feel that your mouthpiece is suddenly too
big or too small if you start putting more (or less) of one or both
lips in/on different proportion of the rim. A few months ago I put
more lower lip in my piece and now I feel more confident, esp. in my
higher range... but for weeks it seemed like that piece just kept
slipping back down. Finally got used to it. Now I fit my Stork 3C
better.
I've read many times that embouchure placement shouldn't be changed
unless (a) *you* really feel you've got a problem with your current
setup, and (b) you have 1st-hand guidance to help "supervise" the
transition. Changes such as any new lip "tuck" may feel strange and
may take discipline and persistence to be able to work with.
Plenty of very good players have unorthodox mouthpiece placement, use
strange pivots, and also may give advice without recognizing a person
for their own individuality. Maybe you've got crooked teeth...
Some common sense questions should help you decide what approach is
even worth considering: What causes tone to be airy? Do you get
better sound in certain registers? Do you sound better on your
friend's horn? Have you tried playing with less mouthpiece pressure?
More pressure?
hth
Carlyjlj75
your school, maybe you should have faith in their teaching methods, (obviously
he/she is a trained professional, to be qualified to teach at the university
level) and put the work into improving your sound now, so that in time you will
hear the results.
Good luck!
CJ
Patrick Devlin
didn't come out to well. In fact I heard the student play a solo yesterday,
and he had an airy tone, and cracked a lot of notes.
the other thing is that I am playing in a lot of groups right now. In the
Wind ensemble my part is being doubled, but in big Band I am the only 3rd
Trumpet (as would be expected).
Patrick Devlin
Carlyjlj75 <carly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991125101358...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Stanton
possible (yeah, right) I will respond item by item. Please note I have
moved Patrick's text around to group things together better for my response.
----------
In article <TA0%3.16071$ra7.3...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com>, "Patrick
Devlin" <pdev...@home.com> wrote:
%snip%
>
>I had my first formal training this summer, with a trumpet player at the
>school I am going to (not the trumpet instructor, but the marching band
>instructor). He did not mention anything to me about changing my
>embouchure.
Formal training that ignores one's embouchure isn't necessarily the "seal of
approval". I first studied trumpet at the Chicago Conservatory of Music and
the teacher there did not even recognize that I was playing with the "smile
system"! Also, many teachers believe in the natural evolution of playing
and don't even get into the mechanics. Other teachers just aren't strong in
that area.
>I am a freshman in
>college as a Music Education major, and my teacher wants me to change my
>embouchure. My section leader in our school's Big Band has told me that I
should not
>change my embouchure, and that I have a perfect embouchure. She says I
>should not listen to my teacher, who is also her teacher. She also takes
>lessons with someone she has been taking lessons with for a long time. She
>even showed me an example of someone who our teacher tried to change the
>embouchure of, and now he has a really airy tone. She also told me that she
>wants me to go and see her other teacher, who is a respectable man and
>taught at the Manhatten school of music. The only problem is, is that that
>won't happen till the summer.
You're kind of in a catch 22. By attending this school and signing up for
the class, you've basically "hired" the teacher. You either have confidence
in his ability, or you don't. It's like going to the doctor. If you don't
have faith in the doctor's diagnosis, you have no business being in his
office. Get my drift? Below you describe a problem, which may be part of
your problem, but there may be other issues as well.
>
>>Let me tell you a little about my embouchure. My teacher told me my tone is
>a little airy. I play with my lips puckered out, and the mouthpiece high
>and to the left. It is about 2/3 on top lip and 1/3 on the bottom lip,
>which is the opposite of what Arban's recommends. I am playing on a Bach
>7C.
Note: THIS IS NOT DIRECT ADVICE TO PATRICK, but a general guideline, taught
to me by Jeanne Pocius....
Developing an embouchure set is in some respects individual, due to the
different physical makeup of each player. However, there are some specifics
that one can use as a starting place. The whole idea of the embouchure and
MOUTHPIECE SET is to insure that the weak upper lip is supported properly,
while not inhibiting the ability to buzz fully. After years of studying
different approaches I have come to believe that this is the most
misunderstood aspect of playing.
The obicularis oris is not an OVAL shaped muscle in the true sense of the
word. It is ovular on the bottom, but very moustache shaped over the upper
lip. In most people, there is a small gap between the muscle and the red of
the upper lip. This is the area that should meet the inside/top part of the
rim. Once this "anchor point" is established, the lower lip then comes up
and lightly touches the upper lip (to form the closed aperture). The size of
the mouthpiece can then be determined by the size of the fleshy part of the
lips and how much "roll" the player uses.
The reason behind setting up this way is to guarantee that the lower lip,
which is way more muscular, can do the lion's share of the work, where the
more delicate upper lip, can be fully supported, yet left to vibrate to the
maximum amount.
I previously had too low a set, and unfortunately was not changed until I
had damaged my chops (by overplaying).
I have taken photos of Jeanne's illustration of where the upper lip anchor
point is (on her) and a second photo showing what I mean by the inside/top
part of the rim.
http://www.stantondesign.com/trumpet/pictures/MPset.jpg
As far as the "airy tone", though the embouchure may be a contributing
factor, I believe that a SOUND AWARENESS level is missing. Arnold Jacob and
John Hagstrom both advocate a "thick airstream" which contribute greatly to
a fatter sound. My guess is that Patrick needs to be more aurally aware of
the sound that he's trying to emulate. Sometimes just trying to copy an
aspect of sound is enough to make the appropriate changes in one's
mechanics. IMO, the mouthpiece set more often affects range and endurance
rather than tone quality. JOMO...YMMV
Respectfully,
Stanton Kramer
Sharon Curtis
Stanton <sta...@core.com> wrote:
>In article <TA0%3.16071$ra7.3...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com>, "Patrick
>Devlin" <pdev...@home.com> wrote:
>>I am a freshman in
>>college as a Music Education major, and my teacher wants me to change my
>>embouchure. My section leader in our school's Big Band has told me that I
>should not
>>change my embouchure, and that I have a perfect embouchure.
>You're kind of in a catch 22. By attending this school and signing up for
>the class, you've basically "hired" the teacher. You either have confidence
>in his ability, or you don't. It's like going to the doctor. If you don't
>have faith in the doctor's diagnosis, you have no business being in his
>office. Get my drift?
Not true. I go to doctors I mistrust, because they can sign a
magic piece of paper that gives me the prescription I need, and I can't
do that. Sure I have business being in that office.
Similarly, yes, he may have chosen the school, but you don't usually
get the chance to find out what the teacher is really like before
you attend the school. Sure he has business being there, even if
he doesn't have complete confidence in the teacher's ability.
Teachers vary. Sometimes you just have to take the plunge and trust
it'll be a good teacher, and then figure out what to do next if they
aren't.
Sharon
Lerham
In article <6Ge%3.1307$_U5.1...@news.corecomm.net>,
Stanton <sta...@core.com> wrote:
>In article <TA0%3.16071$ra7.3...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com>, "Patrick
>Devlin" <pdev...@home.com> wrote:
>>I am a freshman in
>>college as a Music Education major, and my teacher wants me to change my
>>embouchure. My section leader in our school's Big Band has told me that I
>should not
>>change my embouchure, and that I have a perfect embouchure.
This is a tough situation. You have various options here, though.
1. There is always things to learn from ANY teacher. Even if it's just
learning what you don't want to do. Remember that and stay open minded.
2. Express to him or her that you're not comfortable changing your embouchure
and that you would like for him or her to explain their reasoning for this
change. i.e. maybe, you play on the red of the lips, etc...
Also, what do they think will be the benefits of this change.
3. MOST IMPORTANT! It is ultimately YOUR decision. If you are uncomfortable
still, do one of two things. 1) Try out his or her embouchure change giving it
a month to 2 months to see results.
2) Just say you do not feel comfortable making this change. You don't want to
be insulting in saying this, so you may have to express that you do respect
them and maybe at a later date you will be willing to give it a try.
Ultimately, embouchure changes are tricky business. My opinion is that there
are usually other things wrong that can be corrected that will not be as
drastic as an embouchure change. Look around at others, especially
professionals. There is no right or wrong when you get right down to it. It's
how your able to address the main details of playing, i.e. sound, articulation,
breathing, etc...
Hope this helps, and good luck.
Dan
Patrick Devlin
though. But he seaid my tone is airy, and I recorded myself and it didn't
sound airy. It did sound a little brighter than it should have been. If I
do change it won't be until the summer. I just hae too much that I am
playing in right now.
Patrick Devlin
Lerham <ler...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991127111733...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Nicholas Corvino
best thing. If you don't feel tired easily or have any endurance problems
maybe you should just keep it the way it is. I also set my mouthpiece
slightly to the right of center. You also have to remember that there is no
"perfect" setting because everyone's teeth and mouth is different. I do
know that I do have a better setting with some mouthpieces than others
though. I play mainly a 3C and I switch to a shallow mouthpiece when I have
to play lead or in loud situations. I tried playing a 3D once and I set all
messed up and I found that when I went back to the 3C I set better. So
maybe you should check out a bigger mouthpiece too. I don't know. I just
think that whatever you feel the most comfortable with you should do it.
Patrick Devlin <pdev...@home.com> wrote in message
news:TA0%3.16071$ra7.3...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
> I have played trumpet for several years. I started in the 5th grade with
a
> lot of other people at my school. It was a group lesson so I did not get
a
> college as a Music Education major, and my teacher wants me to change my
> embouchure.
>
> school I am going to (not the trumpet instructor, but the marching band
> instructor). He did not mention anything to me about changing my
> embouchure.
>
is
> a little airy. I play with my lips puckered out, and the mouthpiece high
> and to the left. It is about 2/3 on top lip and 1/3 on the bottom lip,
> which is the opposite of what Arban's recommends. I am playing on a Bach
> 7C.
>
> should not listen to my teacher, who is also her teacher. She also takes
> lessons with someone she has been taking lessons with for a long time.
She
> even showed me an example of someone who our teacher tried to change the
> embouchure of, and now he has a really airy tone. She also told me that
she
> wants me to go and see her other teacher, who is a respectable man and
> taught at the Manhatten school of music. The only problem is, is that
that
BSTPT
Don't be afraid to change! I have played for over twenty years now. When I
was in high school, I developed a very bad roll out on both my lips. I had a
teacher one time that told me that he would not teach me unless I changed my
embouchure. As a rebel teenager I didn't realize the point he was trying to
drive home and I rejected his offer. That screwed me up for years!
When I got into college I moved to Los Angeles and started studying with Bobby
Shew. While Bobby realized my limitations, he was hesitant to "make" me
change. Instead he educated me on the phisiology of trumpet playing and let me
figure things out on my own.
About four years ago, I decided to give it a try with a friend of mine, Tony
Lujan, supervising. I got my bottom lip tucked in an working well, but I
compromised due to frustration and didn't fix my top lip completely.
Finally, about six months ago I decided that I would nip this embouchure thing
in the bud once and for all. I practiced each day on the "new" embouchure
while still using the "old" one on my gigs. Slowly but surely, the "new"
embouchure gained strength and I made the decision to go exclusively with the
"new" one. I was a tough transition and I didn't always sound my best on my
gigs but everyone understood.
Now, I've got my chops going very well and I feel stronger than ever. But
it's been a long (20+ years), hard road.
Why the long story? If you really feel as if you are inhibited by the
embouchure that you are using now, change it while you have someone there to
help you with it. You think you have a lot of playing responsibility now?
Don't wait until you are out of school and have to play to pay the rent. You
are in the ideal situation to change if you feel you should.
1.You have a teacher that is willing do help (not all of them are). I learned
a lot from the many, many hours I spent with Bobby Shew. But when I told him
that I had been successful with my embouchre change, he said, "...maybe I
should have pushed you to change it years ago." Bobby did the job right.
2.You are in school. Even though you feel as though you can't let down any of
the groups in which you play, I'm sure they will understand.
3.In the time line of your potential career as a trumpet player, you are just
at the beginning. The investment that you would be making would vastly improve
not just your ability but also your enjoyment of playing.
Here are some guidelines I suggest.
1.Only change when you feel that your current embouchure is limiting your
development. You should only change when you feel you are ready and understand
how and why you are changing.
2.Go into it with an open mind. Don't get all worked up with preconceived
ideas about the potential results, i.e. high notes, perfect sound.
3.Have extreme patience. Once you decide to change, find what you consider the
ideal settng for you and go with it. Do not compromise with a combination of
the "new" and "old" embouchures. Keep an eye on your setting each day in
mirror and be honest with yourself. I suggest long tones. Email me if you
want my formula for long tones.
4.Let the embouchure develop at it's own pace. Embouchure changes can take
months. If you know that going into it, you are less likely to be frustrated.
5.Go for ease of playing. Most of the time, a "bad" embouchure will make you
work too hard. The "new" setting should produce an open sound with minimal
effort.
I realize I've written a lot of information for you to digest but I've been
through this as well and have come out ahead. I wanted you to know that it can
work.
Brian Swartz
LA, CA
If you would like to be informed when The Brian Swartz Quintet is playing or if
you would like to order a copy of my new CD, "There's Only Me," write to me at
BS...@aol.com.
Bugleboy96
range but i lacked endurance
i got a teacher that moved me to the middle and directly center. now i have
tons of endurance but 0 range.
why did this happen.
why can i play better with the old way and not as good with the new way
i have been playing with the new embouchure for about 3 years now and range
hasnt improved
Googanelli
left to centered and more upper lip. my range is crap now. tried all kinds of
exercises and the like and have practiced making music out of the higher notes
but just can't seem to work em out. for the most part i have about a Bb above
the staff range where i was gettin decent range before but had no endurance or
fexibility. i now have endurance and more flexibility but no range. someone
help out?
Joe