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Ultimate mouthpiece

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jazztrpt

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May 14, 2001, 4:00:00 PM5/14/01
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Learned friends (and the rest...):  I've been playing on a smaller size mouthpiece the last 6 months; a Callet 10m and 10s that are somewhat like a shallower version of a Bach 10 1/2C.  These are fine mouthpieces but I just feel there is a limit to as far as I can go with these small pieces. It is the age old dilemma--  I get a better tone with a larger piece, but struggle with the high notes.  In some sections I play in, what good am I with a good is a nice tone if I can't hit the high stuff; yet playing solo, I don't play that high anyway, and love the sound of a larger piece.
 
I know there is a school of thought pro and con for larger and smaller pieces, and I know chop monsters that can play double "Cs" on a Bach 1 1/2C.  Well... I can't.   I also know excellent players that say "going small" simply makes life easier and is a worthwhile trade off.   So... I'm trying to gut it out now on a Schilke 14B.   It is HUGE compared to what I'm been using.   I've lost some range (not surprisingly) but I love the sound I get with it.  My question is; will my time and effort be rewarded by sticking to the Schilke, or should I go crawling back to my smaller mouthpieces with my tail between my legs?  How long should I try the 14B?  Will I eventually be able to regain my range on the 14B?   Is heavy petting acceptable on the first date?
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
 
Mark
 
 

j...@shout.nospam4me.net

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May 14, 2001, 4:09:07 PM5/14/01
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What, the GR e62MS isn't working anymore?

Daniel Funk

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May 14, 2001, 5:43:49 PM5/14/01
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if you ask me it's worth it. Only if you actually need the range right now, I would switch back to something smaller. I promise if you keep up practising at least .5 - 1 hour a day you'll have your range back in no time, but do give yourself time instead of resorting to pressure. It's a nasty habit and takes long to get rid of.... (speaking from experience - i switched from Stork 3C to 2C).
 
    Daniel

SchilkeMan

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May 14, 2001, 6:06:54 PM5/14/01
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> Will I eventually be able to regain my range on the 14B? =

>Is heavy petting acceptable on the first date?

Yes and yes. However, if you already favor smaller cup diamters you may want
to try a Schilke 14A4a or a 14a4.

My two cents. hope it helped. Good luck with the petting.....

Scott

jazztrpt

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May 14, 2001, 6:52:43 PM5/14/01
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About the e62MS GR mouthpiece... no, the honeymoon was short and sweet.  I found it too difficult to push in "extreme" playing, and tubby sounding at times.   I slunk back to my Callet 10S.  I think the GR didn't work out because it seems to have a large backbore... the sound is good but wouldn't respond (for me) as I liked.   They might have a better mouthpiece that would work for me but I'm not gonna pay $85  (soon to be $105) per shot just to find out.
 
Mark

J Lisbeth

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May 14, 2001, 7:57:50 PM5/14/01
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Mark,
Your dilemma is indeed an old one.  Personally, I can't stand anything but a big, full tone coming out of my horn.  I went from a Bach 5C to a 5A to a 3 to a Marcinkiewicz 302 with a short stop at the Schilke 15C4.  I would have stayed with the Schilke (great MP) if I could have gotten the same rim in a flugelhorn MP, but I didn't find a listing for it. 
Far too many young trumpet players are using small, shallow MPs as a crutch in their rush to hit triple Cs.  They don't realize that playing on a larger-volume MP will build their chops faster because they have to work harder.  You can get a good, clear tone on a small MP, of course.  Allen Vizzutti is a perfect example.  But if you want to get hired as the "new guy" in a trumpet section at the start of your career, you'd better have an impressive sound.  Thin, squeaky tones need not apply. 
I keep a shallower MP - Marcinkiewicz 312 - in my bag for the few times I need the boost.  For most of my section and solo work, though, I'll stick to the deep cup.
 
John
 

David C. Stephens

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May 14, 2001, 7:59:38 PM5/14/01
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Interesting...
 
Here's the opposite experience: 
 
I just finished a note to Brian at GR, telling him how pleased I am with my GR MS66, ordered sight unseen, of course. I've tried Mount Vernon Bachs, Bach Megatones, Schilkes, Jet Tones, Reeves, Resonant and a few other, but the GR is the easiest playing, most focused sounding, big sounding mouthpiece I've ever played.
 
The MS66 is close to a 3C in rim size, but everything else is different. Brian and I discussed my playing style and previous mouthpieces, likes and dislikes, etc. and I based my choice on his advice. (Chase Sanborn's site really hooked me on GR, but after a lot of head scratching, I decided to go with a less shallow piece than Chase's).
 
BTW, I'm using the MS66 with a Yamaha 738 (a copy of a Schilke X3) and only play up to F and G (so far), so I'm not saying that the MS66 is the answer to a high note need. OTOH, boy does it sound good and slot well!
 
Ordering sight unseen was totally foreign to me. Hopefully, GR will get several good dealers in the near future.
 
Ciao,
 
Dave

SMB Management, Inc.

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May 15, 2001, 8:56:25 AM5/15/01
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> I know there is a school of thought pro and con for larger and smaller pieces,
> and I know chop monsters that can play double "Cs" on a Bach 1 1/2C. Well...
> I can't. I also know excellent players that say "going small" simply makes
> life easier and is a worthwhile trade off.

Mark,

During my most active playing years I played a Bach 1 1/2C exclusively,
despite the fact that most of my work was lead playing in
commercial/pop/rock settings. Now, I'm into a serious comeback phase, after
a multi-year hiatus.

Near the onset of my comeback I decided to explore my options with regards
to mouthpiece design and sizes. (Mainly because I could now afford more
than one mouthpiece, unlike when I was a starving full-time musician.) I
personally interviewed Jerry Callet, Phyllis Stork, and Mark Curry, going
over every conceivable aspect of my embouchure, the kind of player I am, my
limitations, and the type of jobs I'm now playing, and the amount of time I
have to practice. WITHOUT EXCEPTION, each of these mouthpiece manufacturers
"slapped me on the wrist" for trying to stay with the larger sizes. Each of
them agreed that I was having to work too hard, especially considering the
fact that I no longer have 3-5 hours per day to practice, as I did when I
was playing full time. THAT was a real key in influencing my ultimate
decision.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule in this game, but for me, in my
personal experience, the best thing I ever did was to go to a significantly
smaller rim size, and have four different cups and overall mouthpiece
designs to assist me in achieving the sounds I need for different playing
situations.

I'm not here to sell mouthpieces, so I won't mention which of the three
manufacturers I settled on using. (All three were very gracious, and I'm
sure I'd have been happy doing business with any of them.) I ended up with
a rim diameter approximately equaling that of the Bach 10 1/2C, which was a
huge move for me. It took me about 3 months to make the change. I now have
the same rim on a series of pieces, ranging from very shallow to VERY deep,
with the proper throat and backbore sizes to balance the individual pieces.
I've also had the same rim made for my flugelhorn mouthpiece.

This was a huge paradigm shift for me, as I was always convinced of "the
bigger the better" philosophy. But, with the different cup designs, I have
have given up nothing. I'm able to produce as big, dark or bright a tone as
I need to, regardless of the situation, and I'm not having to work nearly as
hard in the process. My endurance and my usable range definitely increased,
and that which I had previously comes much easier now. "Accuracy" was a
short term concern, but with time and effort, even that came back to form.
Now, when I put a large mouthpiece on my face, it feels so odd I can hardly
believe I use to play on such a thing.

Bottomline . . . get with a competent mouthpiece maker. Their experience is
invaluable in making this most important of decisions. Then, once you've
settled on the proper course, stick with it. My change-over was very
frustrating, and initially a lot of work, but has been worth it many times
over. Also, what worked for me, and the advice I received may not work for
you, but a true expert can help you in your own decision-making and for
what's best for YOU.

Hope this helped.

Steve Baker
Raleigh, NC
steveb...@att.net

Jim Donaldson

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May 15, 2001, 1:03:58 PM5/15/01
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>I went... [to a]... Schilke 15C4. I would have stayed with the
>Schilke (great MP) if I could have gotten the same rim in a
>flugelhorn MP, but I didn't find a listing for it.

The only stock flugelhorn mouthpiece that Schilke makes is a 14F4 which matches
the 14A4a. HOWEVER, they will make you up a very nice flugel mouthpiece on any
rim to fit any shank you want for about $85.


Jim Donaldson
Denver Colorado
JFDon...@aol.com

The Schilke Loyalist
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke

Pops

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May 15, 2001, 2:30:19 PM5/15/01
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Great post Steve.

Sometimes people get caught up in what they are able to do. So a teacher
who plays 8 hours a day and survives a 1C tells his students that they
need to play a 1C.

I have a student on a 6B3c. He played a Chase model 6A4a so long he felt
lost even on a mpc your size. Tone was a problem so a little deeper cup
and different backbore helped.

BTW Steve gets a great sound on his current mouthpieces. Actually better
than on the bigger one. More focused.

Information about my trumpet & embouchure books.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com

Best wishes
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin

Ransom716

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May 15, 2001, 4:44:26 PM5/15/01
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>Ordering sight unseen was totally foreign to me. Hopefully, GR will get
several good dealers in the near future.<

There already is one. NorthernBrass.com
in Londonderry NH.
You can E-mail them at Bruc...@NorthernBrass.com or call at 603-421-9178.
--
Jeff

David C. Stephens

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May 15, 2001, 6:12:57 PM5/15/01
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No doubt, but the trip to NH would have been more expensive going to the GR
factory. ;-)

Hopefully, this will resolve with further development of their distribution
chain.

Dave

"Ransom716" <rans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010515164426...@ng-mq1.aol.com...

ChartreuseFrog

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May 19, 2001, 11:15:43 AM5/19/01
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I completely agree with the younger players going to a small mouthpiece to hit
high notes. I can speak from experience. I'm in 10th grade and have been trying
to find a new mouthpiece besides the 3 "Bach 7C"s currently in my trumpet
cases. My school trumpet is a Getzen 300 special and my good trumpet is a Bach
Strad. I purchased a Schilke 15A4a a while ago, and was really wowed at the
fact that I could hit up to a triple G with almost no effort. The issue was
that when tuning, I was really, really sharp and the tone sounded like crap. So
after a week of playing the Schilke, I went back to the trusted Bach. Only
problem was that I couldn't even hit an A above the staff. So I've basically
not used the Schilke for fear of becoming really weak. Any suggestions for
mouthpieces that I could purchase at a local retailer? I'm looking for the
deeper ones now, because I want better tone and a better workout.
-Julie

J Lisbeth

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May 19, 2001, 3:06:20 PM5/19/01
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Frog,
Look at http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/pages/idx2.html - the Marcinkiewicz
"300" Series. The rims are in the Bach 7C-3C range, but wider and more
comfortable. You can get any cup depth you like. I do 95% of my playing on
a 302 and go to a 312 when it's appropriate. I can't play any higher on the
312, but it does help my endurance. While you're at it, check out the
mouthpiece comparator page at http://www.kanstul.net/mpcJN/Mouthpiece.htm.
Compare a Schilke 15C4 to a Bach 3C. I have both and the rim on the Schilke
is much nicer and very similar to the Marcinkiewicz. Notice that the 15A4a
and the 15C4 have completely different rims. MouthpieceExpress is cheap and
fast, if they have what you want in stock. If they have to order it, it'll
take a couple of weeks. I like your observation that you could play higher
on the 15a4A than the 3C, but your tone sounded like crap. A lot of the
tone problem may be from the tight throat and backbore. Many "lead" players
use these mouthpieces, but most of the "commercial" and "studio" pros stay
with something around the Bach 3-5 rim diameter with a standard or symphonic
throat and backbore and the 1 1/2C is still very popular. John


Carl Dershem

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May 19, 2001, 4:14:42 PM5/19/01
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A simple solution to this is to just get a Schilke 15A4. The difference
between the "a" and "c" backbores is enormous!

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