Claude Gordon.........
Alkamey
many excersises with pedal tones.......then I went to the music store and to my
suprise found a "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice," by Claude Gordon. His
book incorporates an entire practice method to pedals and upper register work.
Does anybody here have any insight on Mr. Gordon's method or whether or not
you use it? Pro's and Con's are welcome.....
thanks
-roger
SiegTrmpt
>you use it?
There are a lot of great ideas in CG's book. A lot depends on how much time you
are willing/able to practice. If you practice 1 hour a day and only used CG's
book you would be developing chops but not getting a lot of musical playing in
as there wouldn't be much if any time left after playing the lesson (s). For
most people it's best to select excercies from the book as needed. Bill S.
Doc
> I had just purchased Arturo Sandoval's book on practicing and noticed there are
> many excersises with pedal tones.......then I went to the music store and to my
> suprise found a "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice," by Claude Gordon. His
> book incorporates an entire practice method to pedals and upper register work.
Let me pose this question, does anyone regard Claude himself as one of
the all time greats of the trumpet?
I haven't looked at it in a long time, but it struck me as being
somewhat pointless overkill. To actually do the entire method I think
you'd have to spend most of your day practicing. I heard someone
describe it as a method "to be a professional warmer upper.."
No doubt you'd get some sort of benefit out of it since you'd be
practicing, which is a good thing, but I knew people who followed it
to exhaustion who derived none of the magic benefits it was supposed
to impart. A friend told me they talked to Stan Mark at a Maynard
concert and asked him about it, that he said "Well, I'm not going to
say it made me the player I am today but it was beneficial.." Okay,
well, to me that sounds like faint praise for this allegedly all
encompassing, time consuming method.
My opinion is that pedal tone practice, especially to the extent found
in his method is a waste of time, another trumpet old wive's tale in
the same category as free-buzzing and lip strengthening excercises
with pencils and that all that belabored pedal/long tone practice time
would be better spent on other things.
Michael Manthey
As with any practice "method / routine", there's going to be a lot of
opionions. (Check out the Gordon threads on the Trumpet Herald Forum -
there's a lot there, "pwew")
This method noook has some wonderful "models" for pedal tone work /
upper register exercises ... use them in combination with other things
and develop a well structured "balanced" routine for your self.
"~iii<O"
Doc
regarding the CG method, which contained homilies from the method, I'm
more convinced he was full of shit.
"Play lower to play higher"
"Play lower without changing your embouchure"
Statements such as these are in defiance of reality. Trite little
sounbites that sound snappy until you examine them.
jazz...@hotmail.com
Low register practice helps build the proper foundation for playing
throughout the horn, no?
I think the message here is, you don't practice for a race by running a
marathon every day. Yes, you need to practice in the upper register to
play in the upper register, but build the foundation in the middle
register.
> "Play lower without changing your embouchure"
Don't use radical embouchure changes to play low, no? I think this is a
critical statement for anyone using pedal tones as a part of their system
for practice (I'm no expert on pedals, BTW, this is something I believe
I've heard stated elsewhere).
In any case, Doc, you seem to be too quick to condemn any method that
doesn't speak to you. If it doesn't, don't use it. Seems simple enough!
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
Doc
> Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Play lower to play higher"
>
> Low register practice helps build the proper foundation for playing
> throughout the horn, no?
With the disclaimer that I have the utmost respect for your jazz chops
and general talent, I have to disagree with you.
What's the definition of "the proper foundation for playing throughout
the horn"? And how does low register practice facilitate it? The
proper foundation is largely conceptual, the physical while needed, is
a tool that follows it. The mechanics of playing change throughout the
register, even over different dynamic levels. Your chops are set
differently for a blastissimo low C than they are for a pp low C.
Having a handle on one is in no way a guarantee of the other. Lots of
people can play fine up to a certain point but stumble on higher
notes. It's an issue I myself am constantly in the process of focusing
on and refining. You need to know what a good sound is, what it feels
like to play with a good sound at any particular pitch and dynamic
level, and try to understand what you have to do to consistently
achieve it.
Anyone who says their embouchure is set the same for a high G as it is
for a pedal G is in serious denial. Your lips are vibrating a
different fequencies and the muscles HAVE to be set differently.
Simply watch anybody going through the range of the horn, if they
don't have facial hair, you can see there's clearly a huge difference
between the extreme low and extreme high.
> > "Play lower without changing your embouchure"
>
> Don't use radical embouchure changes to play low, no?
Define "radical". The goal isn't to look pretty, the goal is to
achieve a result. You use whatever is needed. And fact is, I'd say
most people DO change pretty radically. Watch Doc go from extreme high
to low. His chops are extremely tensed in the high reg, and he reverts
to a completely different, very upstream way of addressing the horn
when he goes low. It's a matter of physical reality. The muscles have
to act on the vibrating surface to create a changing vibrating
surface.
> In any case, Doc, you seem to be too quick to condemn any method that
> doesn't speak to you.
I'm quick to condemn that which I believe to be b.s. and
counterproductive - which is how I feel about a big chunk of what's
presented and who presents it (and makes a buck off it) in the world
of brass pedagogy. I'll be the first to admit I have a bit of a chip
on my shoulder as I feel a certain degree of resentment towards the
teachers I had who I see in retrospect had their heads up their asses
and didn't have a clue how to help me.
Anyone is free to examine my statements and accept or reject them.
Eric Bolvin
Eb
--
Eric Bolvin
Trumpet, Arranger, Composer, Educator
SF Bay Area
Hear our new CD at
http://www.bolvinmusic.com
http://www.mp3.com/EricBolvin
408.236.2009
"Doc" <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0c1bc20.03012...@posting.google.com...
William E. Graham
If it makes you feel any better, Doc, I agree with much of what you
say.....I am still playing my horn about the same way that I played it
17 years ago, when I picked one up for the first time at a garage
sale....I have read a lot of method books and had a lot of instructors
since then, but the plain fact of the matter is that the only thing that
has helped me is regular practice, and the natural feedback that comes
from hearing myself play. I never had any problem with my playing that
these two things didn't cure. It would have helped if someone had told
me that there would be days when I wouldn't be able to play at all, and
when that happened, I should just hang it up for a few hours, and try
again later, but nobody even told me that, so even that I had to learn
the hard way. Most all the attempts that teachers and books have tried
to change my embouchure one way or another have been a waste of
time.....It turns out that there was never anything wrong with my
embouchure to begin with that wasn't going to change by itself over time
to make my sound grow gradually better, and my range climb gradually
higher. When I tried to get some information from experts to speed up
the learning process, I got different advice from every one, and,
frequently conflicting advice. I'm not saying that somewhere there isn't
a horn student that doesn't have a problem that some teacher can't help
him/her with, but I can say that none have ever given me any significant
help. The main thing that teachers have done for me is help me interpret
music that I couldn't interpret well myself. And this has been done
mostly by pianists, and piano teachers, rather than horn players. IOW,
my best teachers have just been good musicians, and didn't have to be
able to play the trumpet at all. Of course, I am not a pro, so my
creditability suffers, and there are always people out there that can
say that I would have progressed faster with the right teacher, and, of
course, I can't argue with them....Perhaps they are right. But in my
experience, no teacher has really ever been able to teach me anything in
any subject. A good teacher, to me, is someone that inspires me to teach
myself through hard work and practice....IOW, I have always had to do
all the learning myself, no matter what the subject, and music is no
exception.
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> With the disclaimer that I have the utmost respect for your jazz chops
> and general talent,
(Unnecessary kudos, but thanks.)
> I have to disagree with you.
Okay...
> What's the definition of "the proper foundation for playing throughout
> the horn"? And how does low register practice facilitate it? The
> proper foundation is largely conceptual, the physical while needed, is
> a tool that follows it. The mechanics of playing change throughout the
> register, even over different dynamic levels. Your chops are set
> differently for a blastissimo low C than they are for a pp low C.
Yes, but does that necessarily require radical changes in the
setting? Shouldn't the idea be to minimize unnecessary changes in the
setup?
> Having a handle on one is in no way a guarantee of the other. Lots of
> people can play fine up to a certain point but stumble on higher
> notes. It's an issue I myself am constantly in the process of focusing
> on and refining. You need to know what a good sound is, what it feels
> like to play with a good sound at any particular pitch and dynamic
> level, and try to understand what you have to do to consistently
> achieve it.
All good points.
> Anyone who says their embouchure is set the same for a high G as it is
> for a pedal G is in serious denial. Your lips are vibrating a
> different fequencies and the muscles HAVE to be set differently.
> Simply watch anybody going through the range of the horn, if they
> don't have facial hair, you can see there's clearly a huge difference
> between the extreme low and extreme high.
Yes, but how much does there NEED to be...
> Define "radical".
Opening your jaw up another inch, as an example. Unnecessarily arching
the tongue up. When we're talking about the chops, especially to
beginners (when establishing a systematic approach for going at the horn),
we want to eliminate unnecessary tension, right?
> The goal isn't to look pretty, the goal is to
> achieve a result. You use whatever is needed.
To a point. It's taken me 20 years to begin to get a handle on
unnecessary pressure. The fact that I've had to use that to get a result
doesn't mean that it's justified (when there's a more efficient solution
available).
> And fact is, I'd say
> most people DO change pretty radically. Watch Doc go from extreme high
> to low. His chops are extremely tensed in the high reg, and he reverts
> to a completely different, very upstream way of addressing the horn
> when he goes low. It's a matter of physical reality. The muscles have
> to act on the vibrating surface to create a changing vibrating
> surface.
Yeah, I think I'm talking a bit more meta- here and you're focusing on
what the lips alone are doing. I don't think I disagree with much that
you're saying here.
> I'm quick to condemn that which I believe to be b.s. and
> counterproductive - which is how I feel about a big chunk of what's
> presented and who presents it (and makes a buck off it) in the world
> of brass pedagogy. I'll be the first to admit I have a bit of a chip
> on my shoulder as I feel a certain degree of resentment towards the
> teachers I had who I see in retrospect had their heads up their asses
> and didn't have a clue how to help me.
Sometimes different folks need similar ideas expressed in different ways
in order to get the results we want.
I can tell you that I sometimes feel I could have used more nuts-and-bolts
info on embouchure from my teachers, but I can't tell whether I would have
been able to use the information ten years ago...I feel like I'm paying
attention now to things that might not have been productive then.
> Anyone is free to examine my statements and accept or reject them.
Anyways, some folks really swear by the Claude Gordon stuff. Check TPIN
and trumpetherald.com for more detailed discussions of folks who think
they've gotten something out of working with the method. YMMV.
You obviously found something that works for you Doc, why don't you share
some of that with us?
Alkamey
difficult for to grasp. Sometimes it takes years of playing before you realize
what it was that your teacher was saying twenty years ago. If you stop
growing, entropy sets in and you start to whither away and become opinionated
about what others are doing to the point that it becomes a self fullfilling
prophecy.............. your find yourself trying to defend your particular
point of view....that's wasted energy!.........
Doc
> Interesting post Jeff. A lot of what was taught to me while in college was
> difficult for to grasp. Sometimes it takes years of playing before you realize
> what it was that your teacher was saying twenty years ago.
The problem is when the teacher is giving inaccurate, misleading,
confusing instruction, which I believe is often the case.
Also, something tells me the teacher should have been able to do a
better job of imparting it 20 years ago, and in reality much of it
YOU'VE discovered and you teacher was verbalizing what was only an
incomplete concept in the first place.
Robert DeSavage
Amen to that. When I went to Berklee the early 60s, I took from a guy
that frightened me more than teach me. Although he was a pretty good
guy, on a good day he was a maniac and on a bad day, he was a
psychopath. God forbid one minute fluff. 8-)
Although I learned nothing 'cumulative' like a bunch of exercises and
figures, after nearly 40 years, his 'message' did finally sink in. He
instilled the need totally concentrate and focus on what I was
playing, be it a long tone or something more. As I grew older, wiser,
and thankfully more thick skinned, today I really appreciate where he
was coming from, be it he was a bastard or not. Now instead of
something 'intimidating', I look at all that I'm trying to do as a
challenge that is actually fun. For sure I fluff a lot of notes, but
chances are the next time around I'm not as 'careless'.
BOB
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> Also, something tells me the teacher should have been able to do a
> better job of imparting it 20 years ago, and in reality much of it
> YOU'VE discovered and you teacher was verbalizing what was only an
> incomplete concept in the first place.
Ah, but here you're operating without complete information yourself. I
was working then on stuff I don't think I could play now (e.g., Henderson
Variations) and progressing. Where my deficiencies have arisen is that I
was progressing in an environment where I was playing more challenging
material 2-3 hours a day. Once I left school, alot of the reinforcement
was lost, and I had to start getting more into self-analysis to try and
keep everything working.
On top of that, I'm also rediscovering concepts that my teacher tried to
impart to me back then which simply didn't retain over time. This happens
to me time and time again. The thing is that I, as an individual, tend to
remember concepts better if I have a better overall concept of how and why
the machine works (my personal learning style). Not everyone learns this
way.
And this brings me back to the OT. Sometimes too much information
overloads the user. There are plently of students of these teachers (and
students of those students) who can attest to the effectiveness of the
methods. Instead of tearing them down for being BS, why not inquire with
those people as to how it worked for them? Who knows, one might learn
something new?! ;)
SRabin2963
of shit".
You speak out of ignorance. Why dont you try his method and do what he says to
do exactly in his book and then give an enlightened opinion. There must be a
reason why arbans, claude gordon, schlosberg and other standard books for
practice are still being used today.They stood by the test of time.
The same reason why bach, beethoven,mozart etc.. are being played today after
hundreds of years. I guarantee that claude gordons book will still be in use
long after the likes of you and i are gone.
Sincerely,
SR
hollywood florida
Doc
>
> And this brings me back to the OT. Sometimes too much information
> overloads the user. There are plently of students of these teachers (and
> students of those students) who can attest to the effectiveness of the
> methods.
I'm not saying there isn't an iota of beneficial material in his
method, simply because he covers certain ground that's obviously part
of development on the instrument - i.e. practice in various keys,
intervals, flexibility, articulations etc. But, as I recall, his
method relies extensively on referring the student to practice out of
OTHER methods.
Simply because it covers some things that are useful, doesn't make him
some great innovator. The parts I take exception to are these out of
left field, unsubstantiated mantras such as I've mentioned, which
other posts from the past reminded me of. "Play low to play high",
etc. I believe he was doing what other authors have done, saying
something different to say something different, to garner attention
and sell books. My contention is that the fact that some people can
play loudly and powerfully after using his method, doesn't demonstrate
how amazing it is. It's because they benefitted from those portions of
it that were useful and the pointless, belabored portions of the
method didn't do anything to hurt them except waste their time.
I further believe that if someone has chronic chops problems, simply
playing a bunch of exercises isn't going to solve the problem. That's
the "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" methodology many
teachers employ. Just by genetics and statistics, a certain number of
students are going to have success and those will be held up as proof
of a teacher's wisdom. "Problem children" are going to be sloughed off
as "incurable". I've asked some famous players whom you've all heard
of and who get paid big bucks as clinicians some very pointed
questions about these issues and it was obvious they simply didn't
know the answers.
Until someone can demnostrate EXACTLY how/why this "play low to play
high" nonsense makes anything remotely resembling sense, I say he's
full of it. Simply pointing to players who practice pedal tones and
can scream isn't going to carry water as "proof". Show me based on
principles of anatomy and physics why it makes any sense that one is
directly responsible for the other. And while you're at it, explain
why many can play low and not high and many screamers sound like shit
in the low register.
> Instead of tearing them down for being BS, why not inquire with
> those people as to how it worked for them?
I suspect they'd say something to the effect of "my
endurance/range/sound etc. improved dramatically after using his
method. I swear by the Claude Gordon method." I'll eat my hat if any
of them can clearly articulate HOW it worked for them. Great, if
you've got an embouchure that functions well, playing long tones, lip
flex, scales, etudes and various other such drills will make you a
better player. Surprise, surprise.
If Claude Gordon had never written a book, how famous would he be on
the strength of his personal playing? Was he considered one of the
giants of the instrument? I wouldn't guess so from what I've heard of
him.
I have one album of his, "Jazz For Jean Agers". He sounds pretty good.
Clean, solid, if somewhat nervous tone. From what I can tell, he had
good technique, doesn't split many notes. He does a lot of linear
double-tonguing that sounds kind of stuffy, and a bunch of short,
diatonic "jazz licks", nothing displaying any great dexterity at
moving through changes. Sounds like he's doing an Al Hirt imitation,
except he doesn't have the true firepower in his back pocket that Hirt
did. He doesn't display any kind of scary range on this particular
album, on the highest notes on this album (maybe an E or F tops) he
actually gets a bit thin, and none are held for any length of time. It
honestly sounds like his section players had more happening in that
realm than he did.
If anyone can point me toward an album that showed what a monster
player he was, I'd be interested to hear it.
Alkamey
What about Arturo? He plays great in the upper register and lower register.
He claims in his book that pedals help develop the right pucker for the upper
register......well maybe it's not worded like exactly like that....but i think
that was his point. It's good for your philosophy to change from time to
time.....and it's good to come back to what you always thought
before........the mind needs that in order to grow......
Andy Callard
but I, like many other players have found the general principles contained
in the Claude Gordon books beneficial. I agree that the regime dictated by
Claude Gordon is akin to training by running a marathon every day, but the
general principles have worked for me.
Striving to (note "striving to") play pedal notes with the same set up as
low to high notes tends to negate bad playing habits that players often
develop (particularly when they become obssessed with visiting higher and
higher ledger lines). It is impossible to get those pedals using excessive
pressure or a generally screwed-up embouchure...unlike high notes that can
be squeeked out badly using "emergency chops". Using pedals to off-set the
effort of playing high seems to have similar benefits to stretching
exercises after a long run. The encouragement to use "vowel shapes" (aa-ee
etc.) isn't under question...is it? The exercises using a "K" tongue and no
tongue are good for establishing a good production...aren't they? The
general concept of practising the instrument like an athletic pursuit as
well as an artistic one is something that needs instilling into trumpet
students...isn't it?
OK, the book is a little over-doctrinaire, and there is the possibility that
players could waste a lot of time following it dogmatically (and it contains
no "recovery time" for muscles to re-build), but there can't have been many
books like it around when it was first written and it has given several
generations an insight into developing some sort of physical methodology
that works for them.
I expect this makes me "full of shit" too, so flame away.
Andy
http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.callard
Doc
> saying that claude gordon is "full of shit" is like saying that arban
> was "full of shit".
No it isn't, it's like saying Claude Gordon was full of shit.
Was he totally full of it and knew nothing about playing trumpet? I
wouldn't say that but I feel some of his theories were nonsense.
> You speak out of ignorance.
You speak like a disciple
> Why dont you try his method and do what he says to
> do exactly in his book and then give an enlightened opinion.
I tried it for maybe a month or so a long time ago, could knock the
crap out of pedal notes, didn't help my range or some problems I was
having at all and in retrospect I see that it never would have. I knew
various others who followed it religiously to exhaustion and they
didn't reap any magic benefits from it. Long tones seem to be about
the best thing about the method. I remember the front cover was full
of testimonials, I wonder how many of those players actually followed
the method from beginning to end.
> There must be a
> reason why arbans, claude gordon, schlosberg and other standard books for
> practice are still being used today.
He must have liked them too since a large part of his method depends
on them.
I've already stated my reasons for what I say in previous posts in
this thread. You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but as I've also
previously queried, I'd be curious to hear you explain in specific
detail how playing pedal tones has a thing in the universe to do with
playing high notes, and why there are those who can play pedals all
day and don't have great range and vice versa.
Ever heard of a story called "The Emperor's New Clothes"?
Doc
> Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You obviously found something that works for you Doc, why don't you share
> some of that with us?
Actually, to an extent I have in various posts. Ultimately, when I
feel I have it to a point where I have it completely defined in my own
mind and feel I can make it crystal clear to anyone else, I plan on
writing a book.
jazz...@hotmail.com
> [...]
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?forum=17&668
(the Claude Gordon forum at trumpetherald.com)
There are folks there that studied with CG, they may be able to speak to
the questions you have (assuming you're actually curious).
Spencer Hager Jr.
Doc,
You could call it, "Everyone is full of shit but me!" <;-)
Couldn't resist,
Spencer
Pops
Also some who couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag.
The same can be said about EVERY teacher.
There are reasons for this.
Some players will make it even if the worst teacher in the world is
helping them.
Others couldn't make it if the Angel Gabriel taught him.
Sometimes there is not good communication or raport between teacher and
student. That is nobodies fault. It is just life.
Also sometimes the student is NOT ready. I saw this when taking lessons
from Jacoby and I've seen it myself. We sometimes resist change because
we think that means we wasted time. Only the resisting is the REAL time
waster. Them their is the intellectual part where something doesn't
click for years until the memory was triggered by something else and
AHA. Then ther are different learning styles (all documented and taught
in current education classes.)
Now the SA book is NOT flawed but it can be dangerous.
Someone with well developed chops can do well. (Unless they cheat to
make false improvements and develop multiple embouchures. And I've seen
that happen.)
The problem is it has LOTS of HIGH notes so weak players buy it and do
physical damage to themselves. (I have had emails from Jr High kids who
bought it.)
(Since TPIN was mentioned several list members there gave their stories
on how SA hurt their chops.)
I have used parts of the SA book with students who were ready for it.
** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
Come see the book everyone is talking about.
"The Pros Talk Embouchure" http://www.BbTrumpet.com/pros.html
Information about my other trumpet & embouchure books.
http://www.BbTrumpet.com
Best wishes
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
It is the smart application of hard work that gets you there.
Alkamey
William E. Graham
Every trumpet student should read that story, and also, all about the
placebo effect:
http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/mdd/99/aug/mysterious.html
Think of all the money and time they would save!
Doc
> Doc wrote:
> > I plan on
> > writing a book.
>
> You could call it, "Everyone is full of shit but me!" <;-)
>
> Couldn't resist,
> Spencer
Now HOW did you know that was the proposed title... ;)
But seriously folks... As I've stated elsewhere, I'm not saying CG was
utterly without a clue regarding playing the trumpet, but I think some
of the concepts he proposed were nonsense.
And while I've seen others on here spew venom in my direction, unless
I've missed it I haven't seen any of those same people attempt to rise
to my challenge of offering an explanation on a precise, biomechanics
level as to exactly why blowing endless pedal long tones has any
bearing whatsoever on screamin' high chops, and why, if it were true,
why there are those who can develop one and not the other. If someone
can prove me wrong, fine. I'm more interested in getting to the truth,
but I'm not holding my breath.
Also, where can one hear CG demonstrating the results of his own
principles? Was he some screamin' first call lead player with superb
accuracy and endless endurance?
Catzz66
>principles? Was he some screamin' first call lead player with superb
>accuracy and endless endurance?
>
That doesn't really prove anything, does it? Some could, but many screaming
lead players could not teach anybody else to do it.
jazz...@hotmail.com
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> Also, where can one hear CG demonstrating the results of his own
> principles? Was he some screamin' first call lead player with superb
> accuracy and endless endurance?
Claude Gordon was a lead player for CBS (mostly radio) and led his own big
band in the 50's and 60's. There are two recordings of his band in print
on the Klavier label.
Gordon was a student of Clarke and Maggio.
I hope this helps.
William E. Graham
If an experienced, well known teacher and player (like Claude Gordon)
were to tell the young trumpet players of the world that chewing a
particular brand of gum and doing deep breathing exercises would
increase their range and endurance, and, if any of them really BELIEVED
that he knew what he was talking about, then they would do it, and it
would work. - This is called the placebo effect.....Every successful
seller of educational methods knows this, and uses it profusely in
his/her work......
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> If an experienced, well known teacher and player (like Claude Gordon)
> were to tell the young trumpet players of the world that chewing a
> particular brand of gum and doing deep breathing exercises would
> increase their range and endurance, and, if any of them really BELIEVED
> that he knew what he was talking about, then they would do it, and it
> would work. - This is called the placebo effect.....Every successful
> seller of educational methods knows this, and uses it profusely in
> his/her work......
Are you asserting that CG's methods are unfounded? If so, please say so,
and say why you feel so.
Bryan Fields
"TRUMPET PLAYERS are the most GULLIBLE PEOPLE on EARTH! They'll buy
anything if you promise them a high note!"
<snip>
William E. Graham
<jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b17fir$8op$1...@roundup.shout.net...
I'm not asserting that CG's methods are unfounded at all....I don't even
know what his methods are.....I'm just saying what I said....No more, no
less. I can find in the teaching literature a counter example to almost
any example you can name. IOW, there is hardly anything that some well
known teacher of trumpet has said, that some other equally well known
teacher of trumpet hasn't contradicted. And, they will each have their
respective following of students who swear by them.... My conclusion? -
It's mostly all BS....Right now, I have a new teacher who is telling me
to do deep breathing exercises, and to sit on the edge of my chair while
I play....:^) I do all that.....Mostly because it makes him feel
better....I don't think for a minute that any of it will make me a
better player of the trumpet...If I really had some problem, then I
might be worried....But I don't have any problem other than the
obvious....I started playing at 50 instead of 5.....Otherwise, I play
perfectly well....Anything I need to improve I can improve simply by
practicing it. So, I will practice what I need, and this new guy will be
convinced that his "method" works.....Cynical? - Sure, I'm cynical. Show
me any reasonably intelligent 67 year old who isn't. If your 67 and
you're not cynical, then you must be an idiot.
mar...@webtv.net
Hit the high G# went down to a A# below double pedal C and back up to
G#. On the same embouchure, just tongue position and air.
You guys do realize that Claude didn't teach according to SA program?
He changed along the way. Basically SA part one and two is the pedal
and range part and then he gave out Clarkes. No Arbans or Smith for
me. Schlossberg and Irons and CG daily routine.
Long pedal tones?
I'd like to thank the posters who were classy enough to not insult the
late Claude Gordon.
Claude never had a bad thing to say about anyone else. He was too busy
teaching his method.
His goal was to help trumpet players sound good, with the endurance and
range to be able to make a living doing it. Yes, his system or way of
thinking was mechanical but he insisted on resting between exercises.
(If you practice properly for 4 hrs you should same perfect for 2hrs.)
You had to go out and develop other aspects of being a musician.
But you'd be able to play for hours with accuracy in a studio or big
band setting. He never mentioned screaming. He would pull out his
horn and play arpeggios into the pedals and up to double C and down.
But no screaming.
"Hit it hard and wish it well. Play with confidence. Blow!"
Doc
> What about Arturo? He plays great in the upper register and lower register.
> He claims in his book that pedals help develop the right pucker for the upper
> register......well maybe it's not worded like exactly like that....but i think
> that was his point.
Watch Arturo play and see if he's using the "same pucker" for a dub C
as he does for a pedal C.
Suuure he does.
jazz...@hotmail.com
Sounds like you're getting quite a bang for your buck out of your lessons.
Donald L. Winters
> to do deep breathing exercises, and to sit on the edge of my chair while
> I play....:^) I do all that.....Mostly because it makes him feel
> better....I don't think for a minute that any of it will make me a
> better player of the trumpet
What, no placebo effect?
Anything I need to improve I can improve simply by
> practicing it.
So why the hell are you paying for lessons?
Show
> me any reasonably intelligent 67 year old who isn't. If your 67 and
> you're not cynical, then you must be an idiot.
I'm 67 and selectively cynical; for instance, when I read your posts. I
guess this could mean that I am an idiot, or perhaps only that I am not
reasonably intelligent.
Regards, Don Winters
William E. Graham
<jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b18tsc$opf$1...@roundup.shout.net...
two things for me. First they give me a structured reason to
practice....Instead of just randomly playing whatever I feel like
playing, I have to prepare whatever the teacher and I decided it was
good for me to work on at the last lesson, so they keep me directed.
Secondly, if my teacher has a good knowledge of music, he/she can detect
my errors in interpretation. This is very helpful to me. While I am very
good at remembering tunes, I frequently get the dynamics wrong, or make
errors in phrasing that a good ear will detect and call to my
attention. - For either of these two things, ability to play the
trumpet, while helpful, is not necessary. I saw Beverly Sills take a
lesson once from her 90 year old teacher....All the teacher did was lean
on her cane and listen....Then she would pound her cane on the floor to
stop the singing, and say something like, "No no! - That Bb was too
loud! You must sing it more delicately, because it leads into the
next....." IOW, the lesson was strictly musical interpretation, which
didn't require the teacher to be able to sing at all. This is what I
expect from my teachers, and, so far, I've been able to find some pretty
good ones....
Doc
> You guys do realize that Claude didn't teach according to SA program?
> He changed along the way.
Oookie dokey... I suppose I'm the only one who sees a problem with
this if it's true.
> I'd like to thank the posters who were classy enough to not insult the
> late Claude Gordon.
> Claude never had a bad thing to say about anyone else.
Never ever? Hmmm...
I'm sure he was a great guy, his family loved him, he donated to
charity and that he was kind to small animals and children... I still
say he was full 'o beans on certain points.
William E. Graham
"Donald L. Winters" <Donald.L...@Vanderbilt.edu> wrote in message
news:b18umt$qj$1...@news.vanderbilt.edu...
> Right now, I have a new teacher who is telling me
> > to do deep breathing exercises, and to sit on the edge of my chair
while
> > I play....:^) I do all that.....Mostly because it makes him feel
> > better....I don't think for a minute that any of it will make me a
> > better player of the trumpet
>
>
> What, no placebo effect?
Alas, that's the problem with being cynical....I miss out on a lot of
placebo effects and the good that they might do for me....
>
>
> Anything I need to improve I can improve simply by
> > practicing it.
>
>
> So why the hell are you paying for lessons?
See above answer to Jeff's post.
>
>
> Show
> > me any reasonably intelligent 67 year old who isn't. If your 67 and
> > you're not cynical, then you must be an idiot.
>
> I'm 67 and selectively cynical; for instance, when I read your posts.
I
> guess this could mean that I am an idiot, or perhaps only that I am
not
> reasonably intelligent.
I speak only for myself....I don't expect you to accept my
cynicism....Choose (and pay for) your own medicine........
>
> Regards, Don Winters
>
>
>
Scott Ruehr
> were to tell the young trumpet players of the world that chewing a
Where can I get that gum??? :-)
Pops
Someday someone may say something that could really help you and you
won't give it a real chance.
SRabin2963
>I tried it for maybe a month or so .....
Patience my friend.
A month wont do much for you.. except maybe get you frustrated.
This particular book reqires a MINIMUM of one full year and this is exactly
what Claude Gordon wrote in the beginning of the book. That is why there are
fifty two studies. If you dont want to study his method, simply dont do it. The
least you can do is not cut it down so fast. This is a little disrespectful to
people who may (if this is possible mind you) know a little more than you at
this juncture in time about this fantastic and insightful method.
Like I said earlier, if you did the whole method, I would have no other choice
other than to respect your educated and thoughtful opinion.
Until then however, I remain respectfully yours.
SR.
Doc
> >I tried it for maybe a month or so .....
>
> Patience my friend.
> A month wont do much for you.. except maybe get you frustrated.
I see. So, why is that?
> This particular book reqires a MINIMUM of one full year and this is exactly
> what Claude Gordon wrote in the beginning of the book.
So, before one can reap ANY benefits from this magic system, one must
labor at it for exactly 52 weeks...... Lemme get out my hip waders.
> That is why there are
> fifty two studies. If you dont want to study his method, simply dont do it.
> least you can do is not cut it down so fast. This is a little disrespectful to
> people who may (if this is possible mind you) know a little more than you at
> this juncture in time about this fantastic and insightful method.
You know, I bet there were those who said something similar about
anyone who proposed that the world was round not flat, that church
dogma regarding the inaccurate way anatomy was taught for centuries
was wrong, that the solar system didn't revolve around the Earth, etc.
To say otherwise, to fly in the face of "the way it's been taught for
centuries" was disrespectful, "blasphemy" etc. Of course, it turns out
the dissenters were absolutely correct, but hey what's a few burnings
at the stake between friends, eh?
So, since you have this depth of insight regarding the CG's SATDP, I'm
sure you can illucidate as to EXACTLY why, biomechanically speaking,
belabored practice of long pedal tones, even though playing pedals
involves totally different use of the facial muscles, tissue tension
across the vibrating surface, tongue arch, etc. etc. than the playing
of high notes, somehow still leads directly to the ability to play
extremely high notes.
jazz...@hotmail.com
"extremely high notes"? It's not a screamer method.
And, have you tried posting to the trumpetherald.com forum dedicated
specifically to discussion of this method as I suggested? I think you'll
probably get your answers there.
Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> So, since you have this depth of insight regarding the CG's SATDP, I'm
> sure you can illucidate as to EXACTLY why, biomechanically speaking,
> belabored practice of long pedal tones, even though playing pedals
> involves totally different use of the facial muscles, tissue tension
> across the vibrating surface, tongue arch, etc. etc. than the playing
> of high notes, somehow still leads directly to the ability to play
> extremely high notes.
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
nick hansinger
> jazz...@hotmail.com wrote in message news:<b1130r$14h$1...@roundup.shout.net>...
>
> Until someone can demnostrate EXACTLY how/why this "play low to play
> high" nonsense makes anything remotely resembling sense, I say he's
> full of it. Simply pointing to players who practice pedal tones and
> can scream isn't going to carry water as "proof". Show me based on
> principles of anatomy and physics why it makes any sense that one is
> directly responsible for the other. And while you're at it, explain
> why many can play low and not high and many screamers sound like shit
> in the low register.
Let me preface my comments by saying that I've never used the Claude
Gordon method, and I am totally unaware of it's contents and concepts.
I am only writing to comment on the questions about pedal tones.
I use pedal tones in my daily routine. When played with the same
embouchure as ued in the normal range of the instrument (or as close
as you can come to that), they help to accomplish 2 things for me.
1) Loosen the center of the embouchure.
2) Anchor the corners of the embouchure.
I should also add that I do a short exercise on the mouthpiece alone
after the pedal exercises to refine the buzz and focus my chops.
As far as playing lower to play higher, I definitely think there is
some validity to this comment. In order to make the sound ring in the
extreme low and extreme high, you have to firmly anchor the corners
and let go of the center. Playing pedal tones helps to do these
things.
Can you accomplish these things without using pedal tones? Sure. All
I'm saying is that they work for me.
Hope this answers at least part of your question.
-Nick
Doc
> sure you can illucidate
elucidate even..
jazz...@hotmail.com
> elucidate even..
"illucidate" -- to make something so clear it's sickening?
William E. Graham
"'Pops'" <Bbtr...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3071-3E3...@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> There is one problem with being too cynical.
>
> Someday someone may say something that could really help you and you
> won't give it a real chance.
Ahhhhh....You're confusing cynicism with stupidity.....I think about and
consider, and frequently try almost any suggestion that anyone gives me
to improve whatever it is that I am trying to do or learn. But if it
doesn't make any sense logically, and changing is uncomfortable and not
helpful, then I take the advice with a large grain of salt....Also, when
other "experts" disagree, and tell me I'm right, and I shouldn't do it
the new way, then what am I to think? Again, common sense is the order
of the day.....I could give many examples, but why bother? I'm sure you
have known very good trumpet players that play off center, with more lip
on top, with more lip on bottom, with many other unusual methods and
postures, and they do just fine.....I have found a good way to play, so
I am happy......
Doc
> Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> So, since you have this depth of insight regarding the CG's SATDP, I'm
> >> sure you can illucidate
>
> > elucidate even..
>
> "illucidate" -- to make something so clear it's sickening?
Uh...yeah..yeah that's it..... <contemplating life in spelling purgatory>
Hey, our pres can't say NUCLEAR to save his life....
Alkamey
I know you've been getting it hard from a lot of us here. However, I do
want you to know that I appreciate you and your point of view. These types of
discussions are what truly make a board like this interesting.....even if we
don't always agree....
roger
John Mohan
> Let me amend my previous comments. After reading through older posts
> regarding the CG method, which contained homilies from the method, I'm
> more convinced he was full of shit.
>
> "Play lower to play higher"
>
> "Play lower without changing your embouchure"
>
> Statements such as these are in defiance of reality. Trite little
> sounbites that sound snappy until you examine them.
Or perhaps they "are in defiance of reality" until you UNDERSTAND
THEM.
By using the same embouchure for all registers (including the pedals),
Claude didn't mean there was to be no movement of the lips. In fact
he always stressed that one should keep the lips moist so they could
move about when changing to different registers. The criteria for
"One Embouchure" is met when a player can slur from the extreme low to
the extreme high registers (or vice versa) without any break in the
sound caused by having to reset the embouchure. It doesn't mean that
the lips have to stay exactly the same all the time.
And PROPER practice of the Pedal register (as taught by Claude Gordon
and illustrated in his books) does wonders for range, power and
endurance. So yes, "play lower to play higher" does make sense in
that context.
I studied with Claude for many years. The results (a partial list of
my work credits):
Los Angeles Studio Musician 1984 - 1998
(Then I met a young beautiful German woman and moved to Germany to be
with her. I had no music contacts in Europe. My friends in the
business thought I was crazy to give up my freelance career in L.A.)
Since moving to Germany in December 1998:
1st trumpet "Cats" Hamburg for 1 1/2 years
2nd trumpet sub on "Phantom of the Opera" Hamburg
1st trumpet "Phantom of the Opera" Antwerpen, Belgium
2nd and 1st trumpet Disney's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" Berlin for
2 years
regular sub with the RSB (Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin)
1st trumpet European Tour of "Evita"
Presently, I'm play 1st trumpet for the European Tour of "West Side
Story".
I'm not boasting. I listed the above because I credit the method and
teaching of Claude Gordon with my success as a successful, full-time
professional trumpet player.
His method works. All one has to do is understand it, use it, and
most importantly, STICK WITH IT UNTIL IT DEVELOPS.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
John Mohan
> Also, where can one hear CG demonstrating the results of his own
> principles? Was he some screamin' first call lead player with superb
> accuracy and endless endurance?
Claude was the 1st trumpet player for CBS Hollywood through the later
'40's and '50's. In that capacity he played for both live radio
broadcasts and for the new TV shows (including "I Love Lucy"). His 5
- 7 day work weeks often involved days of more than 8 hours of
recording and also "live" on-the-air radio programs where "missing
notes" just could not and did not happen. He was known to be a
monster player with great endurance and incomparable accuracy. Mannie
Klein himself related these facts to me.
Claude has several CDs out. They are available on the website his
widow Patricia Gordon maintains:
Sincerely,
John Mohan
John Mohan
>
> So, since you have this depth of insight regarding the CG's SATDP, I'm
> sure you can illucidate as to EXACTLY why, biomechanically speaking,
> belabored practice of long pedal tones, even though playing pedals
> involves totally different use of the facial muscles, tissue tension
> across the vibrating surface, tongue arch, etc. etc. than the playing
> of high notes, somehow still leads directly to the ability to play
> extremely high notes.
Here's why:
When you play a proper pedal note, you must be very relaxed in the
uninvolved muscles or the note won't speak. If you tense your throat
(which is actually the improper raising of the back of the tougue
against the back of the roof of the mouth), the note won't speak.
Your embouchure must be in position where the best and most free
vibration can occur, or the note won't speak. You must put a good
amount of air through the horn, or the note won't speak. As Maggio,
Gordon, and now Sandoval have said, playing proper pedal notes
basically forces you to play correctly.
The above prerequisites are the same ones for the upper register. So,
the playing of pedal notes helps one to achieve a good relaxed way of
playing with a proper embouchure.
Next:
When you practice pedal note exercises such as those in Claude's
"Systematic Approach" book, you are directed to hold the last note as
long as you have air "and longer", and you are supposed to try to
crescendo the note as you run out of air until your breathing muscles
shake with the effort. This exercises and strengthens the muscles
that are required to create the tremendous air pressure needed for the
upper register. You don't realize it, and I doubt you ever will, but
the extreme upper register does NOT require all that much facial
muscle, lip or embouchure development. It requires AIR POWER and
control of that air power with the arching forward and upward tongue.
And lastly:
When you do these notes, and you squeeze that last bit of air out and
you exercise the blowing muscles WHILE maintaining the total
relaxation required of the uninvolved muscles (because, as I said
before, you have to be relaxed to make pedal notes speak), you are
training yourself to be able to blow hard while not tensing up. And
that's how Double C's are also played.
I hope this is helpful to you, and perhaps to many others.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
P.S. This will be my last free contribution for a while. I just
don't have the time to do this very often. I'm available for
Crash-Courses, Clinics and Private Instruction through my e-mail
address.
Alkamey
Do you know a trombone player named Joe Gallardo there in Germany? He is
from my hometown Corpus Christi, Tx. He is playing with the radio orchestra
there and just put out a CD called Blusiando.
Roger Vera
Doc
> When you play a proper pedal note, you must be very relaxed in the
> uninvolved muscles or the note won't speak. If you tense your throat
> (which is actually the improper raising of the back of the tougue
> against the back of the roof of the mouth), the note won't speak.
> Your embouchure must be in position where the best and most free
> vibration can occur, or the note won't speak. You must put a good
> amount of air through the horn, or the note won't speak. As Maggio,
> Gordon, and now Sandoval have said, playing proper pedal notes
> basically forces you to play correctly.
> The above prerequisites are the same ones for the upper register.
> > "Play lower to play higher"
> > "Play lower without changing your embouchure"
> > Statements such as these are in defiance of reality. Trite little
> > sounbites that sound snappy until you examine them.
> Or perhaps they "are in defiance of reality" until you UNDERSTAND
> THEM.
But why pedals specifically? You can work on improving the
tone/attack/character of ANY note. If it's coming out sounding big and
full, i.e. you're getting the desired results, then obviously you're
doing whatever needs to be done to make it sound that way. What's the
point of specifically belaboring notes that don't fall in the natural
range of the instrument? The way the facial muscles are used to play
pedals has no resemblance to how they're used to play high. It would
seem to me that addressing getting a good sound on all the real notes
on the instrument while actually dealing with the unique embouchure
requirements that are involved at any pitch/dynamic would make more
sense. I feel that if pedals were some magic bullet, people like Chuck
Mangione, who uses them in performance, would be monster lead players,
which he certainly isn't. He's a great jazz artist, but I think you'll
agree he doesn't have chops that anyone is going to write home about.
The other objection I have to the concept of pedal tones is that
despite what some claim, it does NOT do anything to correct embouchure
dysfunctionalities. I say this from personal experience.
BTW, one thing I wholeheartedly agree on is playing long tones (in the
normal range of the instrument) to build air power, sound and chops
strength, especially if it's done with a very specific awareness and
understanding of embouchure mechanics. Whether CG was the first to
promote this practice technique, I don't know.
Donald L. Winters
Right now, I have a new teacher who is telling me
> to do deep breathing exercises..... I do all that.....Mostly because it
makes him feel
> better....I don't think for a minute that any of it will make me a
> better player of the trumpet.
Here is your post in the breathing thread:
Barnes & Noble has "The Science of Breath" by Yogi Ramacharaka for about
$16.....I ordered it, but haven't received it yet.....
I assume that you are purchasing the book on breathing to make your teacher
feel better. Or is this too cynical?
Don Winters
Doc
> the extreme upper register does NOT require all that much facial
> muscle, lip or embouchure development. It requires AIR POWER and
> control of that air power with the arching forward and upward tongue.
Are you saying that embouchure strength is not a factor? Regarding how
much embouchure muscular strength it takes, define "all that much". I
say to play the kinds of parts you play in those shows, along with the
correct coordination of all the factors, it simply takes more raw
embouchure strength and endurance than pretty much any 2nd or 3rd year
trumpet student, no matter how talented, is going to have.
If you say you personally don't use "a lot of lip strength" to play
high, i.e. you don't feel like your embouchure is working that hard, I
think you're forgetting what it took to GET you to that point, that
your embouchure is a hell of a lot stronger than it was when you were
in your early years of development, you've just gotten to the point
where it uses a lesser percentage of your maximum capacity to do it. I
bet if you laid off for 6 months or a year and did nothing but
breathing exercises, and tried to come in cold and play the lead book
for that circus gig, air or no air, it would soon become obvious how
strong your chops are now when you're in shape.
Also, I firmly believe that some people also have a natural advantage
for high noting simply due to the tools they have.
funky trumpet
Tell us more about Mannie Klein, we're trying to figure out more about him.
To me, he is only immortalized on my mute. ( I know, Sh! Sh! Quiet :->
Actually I thought it said SHI SHI as in Chee Chee )
I make light because we were teasing about the stone lined mute, but really,
tell us a bit about Mannie Klein
Thanks
Tim Bales
"John Mohan" <jmtr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7d82dffd.03013...@posting.google.com...
Doc
> Wait,
> Tell us more about Mannie Klein, we're trying to figure out more about him.
> To me, he is only immortalized on my mute. ( I know, Sh! Sh! Quiet :->
> Actually I thought it said SHI SHI as in Chee Chee )
>
> I make light because we were teasing about the stone lined mute, but really,
> tell us a bit about Mannie Klein
He was a renknowned studio/jazz/legit player. I first saw his name on
the personnel listing on Al Hirt's Horn A Plenty album. I've run into
a couple of old timers who spoke very highly of him, said he could do
it all - big band lead, improv, symphonic.
Bill Bryant
"You cannot go on 'seeing through' things forever. The whole point of
seeing through something is to see something through it. . . . To 'see
through' all things is the same as not to see." -- C. S. Lewis, The
Abolution of Man
I studied with Claude Gordon at length back in the 70s. See my post at
(I hope I did that right. I'm pretty new to newsgroup techniques.)
Bill Bryant
Eric Bolvin
http://www.bolvinmusic.com/mandt.html
--
Eric Bolvin
Trumpet, Arranger, Composer, Educator
SF Bay Area
Hear our new CD at
http://www.bolvinmusic.com
http://www.mp3.com/EricBolvin
408.236.2009
"Bill Bryant" <bbr...@rapidnet.com> wrote in message
news:a7e7bb74.03022...@posting.google.com...