How to fix slow, clumsy flugel valves?
Wayne H. Clemmons
Another question guys!
I bought this used Yamaha YFH-731 flugelhorn and the valves are driving
me crazy! First off they are really noisy; they clank and I hear the
springs scraping inside of the valve casings. Second, they are really
tight and they often get stuck or hesitate on the way back up so I can't
play as fast as want. NO amount of oil (I use tons) seems to help.
Should I seek pro help? What do yo think the problem is and what will it
take to fix it? How much do you think it'll cost?
Wayne
Bart Brady-Ciampa
First, after a thorough cleaning with a valve brush and really wiping down
the pistons with a soft, dry cloth. Oil them again to see if there's a
difference. If not, go to your local music store and buy some new springs.
They only cost a few bucks and should be replaced periodically anyway. As
a next to last resort, insert an additional spring under your piston (like
the old fashioned, bottom-springed horns, to see if this makes a
difference. If it does, you might simply need springs with more tension.
As a last resort, take out your pistons and hand lap them using a VERY
mild type of abrasive toothpaste. Be sure to not get carried away with
this as you don't want to remove much more than the glaze. Be sure to
rinse completely. Hope this helps!!
Bart
In article <5b616h$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>, clem...@mail.med.upenn.edu
says...
Alex Pegg
I hade the same porbalem with my high school's yamaha flugel. What I did
was completley go over it and give it a real go cleaning. I got the
valves to wrk good after a lot of scrubbing. Soap and water works ok, and
I used rubbing alcohol on them. One problem for slow alves is that there
might be little deposits of metal and gunk on the valves. I used a
toothbruh to scrub the off, and i some cases I used a wooden toothpick to
pop the peices of metal off the valves. That worked well. Then I kept
oiling them and playing lots of cromatic scales to kinda break em in and
make sure the worked good. Good Luck!
Alex Pegg
c69...@showme.missouri.edu
ape...@mail.win.org
Gary Pearce
>I hade the same porbalem with my high school's yamaha flugel. What I did
>was completley go over it and give it a real go cleaning.
>
The flugel I use (school-owned as well) is also a Yamaha and its
valves also suck. I try to be diligent about washing it because I
can't stand sluggish valves, but since it's a school horn I don't
always have access to it. As long as I can keep the valves relatively
clean, the performance is OK. I try to wash it about once a month
with an extra washing before performances and that works OK.
Note to the original poster: Hope you didn't pay too much for that
flugel!
--
Gary Pearce -- Real address: pearceg at cyberramp dot net
CClark326
I had a friend come into my shop recently with the same valve problem. We
tried the new "Hybrid" Pro-Oil which did help, but didn't solve the
problem. What did finally solve the problem was trading the Yamaha in for
a Getzen with plated pistons.
Chris
David Buxton
All kinds of slide grease, algae, corrosion, peanut butter, bread crumbs
and other gunk tends to work it's way through a trumpet eventually. Can
get like an Amazon Eco Zone in there. So, when I find that cleaning and
oiling my valves gets less and less effective, at speeding up my valves,
I take my trumpet apart in the bath tub and clean it out thoroughly from
one end to the other. I have mp and valve cylinder brushes, etc that
don't cost much at all that come in handy. According the theory, one
of the best places to ruin your tone is to let the gunk build up in the
mp and immediately down stream. So, clean out your mp frequently.
One caution -- One post to this newsgroup described how the bath water
was too hot and his brand new lacquer job floated to the surface of the
water. Baby bath warm is just fine. You don't need it any warmer than
that.
spicyguy
In article <32d73db8...@newshost.cyberramp.net>,
Gary Pearce <pearceg@**remove.this.spamblock.to.reply.at.**cyberramp.net>
wrote:
What model of Yamaha Flugel horn is it? I ask because I am considering
buying a model 631 red brass bell Yamaha flugel.
..............................
Jammmmmm
As valves wear, they tend to wear in a non- symetrical way, so that
eventually they (and the casings) end up not being round anymore. This is
especially true of school or rental horns that get played by scores of
different people who all press the valves down slightly different in terms
of side pressure on the finger buttons, exacerbating the situation.
Soon, the valves will actually become barrel-shaped; not to the naked eye,
but still they will get to the point where they will actually get cocked
at a slight angle in the casing and drag with metal-to-metal contact, thus
sticking when you release them (not to mention the response problems you
may begin to notice from the horn not being airtight). The cure is not
lapping, cleaning, or any other method -other than nickel plating or
replacing the valve. After truing the casing back to roundness with a
honing machine, the new or reconditioned piston is fitted back into the
it. This can be done by a competent repairman who is NOT a backyard
"shadetree" type. It will give your horn a new lease on life.
May I suggest Kevin Powers of Michigan Musical Instruments. He has a
large web site, sorry I don't have the url handy, use your search
engine... He has done 4 horns for me and each one was superb. And his
prices beat ANYONE I know of.
PS I don't work for him, just trying to help.
Tulsa Band
Wayne H. Clemmons wrote:
>
> Another question guys!
>
> I bought this used Yamaha YFH-731 flugelhorn and the valves are driving
> me crazy! First off they are really noisy; they clank and I hear the
> springs scraping inside of the valve casings. Second, they are really
> tight and they often get stuck or hesitate on the way back up so I can't
> play as fast as want. NO amount of oil (I use tons) seems to help.
> Should I seek pro help? What do yo think the problem is and what will it
> take to fix it? How much do you think it'll cost?
>
> Wayne
For the sticky valves, try the new "Hybrid" by Pro-Oil. As far as noisy
valves, put a little slide grease on inside of the SPRING casing (not
the valve casing).
--Donovan
Tulsa Band Instruments, Inc.
mailto:Tul...@ionet.net
http://members.tripod.com/~tulsaband
(918)252-1176
Jammmmmm
Christopher C. Stratton
We had similar problems with a pair of Yamaha 731 flugels here at MIT.
I had some success with one of them by vigourously scrubbing
the inside of the valve casing with a brush designed for that
purpose and dishwashing soap.
Also, we discovered that the first valve was most likely to stick
if the instrument was stood on its bell while not being used
(ie, while playing trumpet). Since the leadpipe goes right
into the first vavle, it seams like 'stuff' dripping out of
the leadpipe into the valve may be partly at fault. Setting
the horn on its side when not in used seemed to help.
Chris Stratton
stra...@mit.edu
Trond Otto Berg
Wayne H. Clemmons wrote:
>
> Another question guys!
>
> I bought this used Yamaha YFH-731 flugelhorn and the valves are driving
> me crazy! First off they are really noisy; they clank and I hear the
> springs scraping inside of the valve casings. Second, they are really
> tight and they often get stuck or hesitate on the way back up so I can't
> play as fast as want. NO amount of oil (I use tons) seems to help.
> Should I seek pro help? What do yo think the problem is and what will it
> take to fix it? How much do you think it'll cost?
>
> Wayne
Your probem is one of the most common in the world of brassplaying.
Everytime you get a new instrument, the wavle have to be suited to your
fingers. There are not two inivids that press down the wavles exactly
like the others. What this mean is that the wavles have to be
"poliched" to fit your fingers. The best way to do this is to press
them down as many times as possible. (Play the horn) If you, after a
rehersal, tahe out the wavles and look close at them, you will see some
black "things" on the top and/or at the bottom of the wavles. This is
micoscopic metal dust, and it have to be removed. If you alove it to
stay, the wavles will get clumsy and slow-working, and they can even be
stucced like if you have put glue on them.
The best way to clan them, is to hold them under the waterspring, with
mid-teperature water flowing. You can use your thum to "scrub" away the
blacklines. When the wavle is clean and free of old oil and/or fat you
are ready to put them onto the instrument again. DON'T USE MUCH
WAVLEOIL. ONE OR TWO DROPS IS ENOUGH.
The first moth (or so) with a new instument you shuld do the EVERY TIME
after you have played. After a while you can drop down to once or twice
a week, wich should be the normal interval of wavle cleaning, depending
how much you are playing. With this metod, I promise you VERY GOOD
wavles in betwen one or two months.
--
- Trond Otto Berg
Paul Dhuse
spicyguy (mro...@xmission.xmission.com) wrote:
: In article <32d73db8...@newshost.cyberramp.net>,
: Gary Pearce <pearceg@**remove.this.spamblock.to.reply.at.**cyberramp.net>
: wrote:
: >On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:09:00 -0600, Alex Pegg
: ><c69...@showme.missouri.edu> wrote:
: >
: >>I hade the same porbalem with my high school's yamaha flugel. What I did
: >>was completley go over it and give it a real go cleaning.
{snip}
: What model of Yamaha Flugel horn is it? I ask because I am considering
: buying a model 631 red brass bell Yamaha flugel.
: ..............................
I've got a 631 and the secret is to keep the valves clean - especially when
the horn is new. Yamaha seems to make the tolerances very small, smaller
(IMHO) than they need to be. I think for the first 3 months that I played
the horn, (not owned) I'd clean the valves every time I played it. Now it's
pretty good. The other thing to look at is the valve guide. Sometimes the
nylon guide will expand (get squashed vertially - expands horizantally) or
gets a tiny piece of itself shipped off and that will stick.
Mine also dries out very quickly - if a day goes by that I don't play it,
the first valve will be dry, and the others follow soon.
I use Al Cass fast on the valves, and piece of old cloth and a dowel to
clean the valves.
They're nice horns, with a beautiful sweet sound. Good luck.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Paul R. Dhuse | Don't get BEHIND me on my way to
Lockheed Martin Missiles & Space | work, and don't get AHEAD of me on
dh...@trusty.lmsc.lockheed.com | my way home!
(408)756-0068 |
Gary Pearce
On 15 Jan 1997 00:08:48 GMT, dh...@claudius.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com
(Paul Dhuse) wrote:
>
>I use Al Cass fast on the valves, and piece of old cloth and a dowel to
>clean the valves.
>
That's another thing I ought to add to my follow-up earlier in this
thread. I initially used Alisyn valve oil on the Yamaha flugel.
That's all I use on my Jerome Callet Jazz Bb trumpet and it works
great. I oil my trumpet valves about once every 6 weeks or so if I
remember to, and I never have had problems with slow valve response.
But this valve oil just didn't work with the Yamaha flugel. Once I
started using Al Cass oil on the flugel valves, the performance got
much much better. As always, YMMV.