Can I damage my home stereo?
Thomas Jansson
I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
filter?
Thanks in advance.
/Thomas Jansson, d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se
James Appleby
: In article <d3thomas....@dtek.chalmers.se> d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se
: (Thomas Jansson) writes:
: > Hi!
: Based on personal experience, yes, you can damage your home stereo with a
: synthesizer. I managed to blow a Sansui woofer with a Korg Poly-Six ...
: actually, my wife did, but that's another story...I don't think a filter would
: help. A limiter might, but it's still pretty risky. It's not so much the
: frequencies as the amplitudes that do the damage, at least in my case.
: Jay
I have to disagree.
There's nothing at all wrong with using a home stereo amplifier (or receiver with an
auxilliary input) to monitor your synthesizer system. Remember, many of the synthesizer
companies like to brag that their machines have 20hz-20khz frequency ranges just like
the high end stereo stuff. Since you probably aren't (and certainly shouldn't for your
hearing's sake) running your midi system at anything like PA power levels, you'll not
likely ever drive a decent home stereo amp to clipping levels in normal use.
In normal use ...
Synthesizers, especially samplers, should have warning labels on them like some of the
earlier CD's did....Caution, this synthesizer (or CD) contains recorded sound effects
having high sound pressure levels. Exercise caution (ta da ta da ta da). You've got
to be careful setting up patches or timbers with the volume way up else, like poster
Kadis, you'll blow out a driver (I'll bet any spike hot enough to take out a woofer
also took out a tweeter or two.).
Which brings up the final point ...
While a consumer stereo amp is fine for your Midi system, regular stereo speakers
probably aren't. Monitor speakers (Hi-Fi monitor speakers that is) have several things
going for them over regular home speakers. They usually have a relatively flatter
frequency response than home speakers (you pay for it too), the better ones are designed
to provied a good near-field sound stage (you should have them about 6-7 feet apart and
pointed at your head), and they should have magnets big enough to prevent damage in the
event of high power level spikes.
-Appleby-
Jay Kadis
Based on personal experience, yes, you can damage your home stereo with a
Stephen E. Hale
My suggestion: Sell your stereo amplifier and speakers. Buy a professional
power amp and studio monitors or PA speakers. You'll never have to worry about
blowing anything with your synths, and that CD of the 1812 Overture with real
cannon shots sounds incredible!!!
And yes, I have screwed up home-stereo speakers and too-small "keyboard"
speakers before. Be careful!!!
--
Stephen
+++++++++++++++++++++++++ ... Beware, my friends, as you pass by
+ Stephen E. Hale + as you are now so once was I
+ SEH...@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU + as I am now so you will be
+++++++++++++++++++++++++ prepare, my friends, to follow me ...
Alexander Forth
In article <d3thomas....@dtek.chalmers.se>, d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se (Thomas Jansson) writes:
|>Hi!
|>
|>I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
|>are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
|>to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
|>would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
|>filter?
It's the bass you've got to be concerned about, especially if your speakers
aren't capable of efficiently producing low frequencies (ie. have small bass
cone). The danger is that because the speakers are not efficient with low
frequencies, you have a tendency to turn the volume up to hear them.
The amp driving the speakers may clip producing distortion, regardless of
whether distortion occurs (if it does it only speeds up the process) then
heat builds up in the voice coil in the speaker cone, and the speaker is
never the same again.
To prevent this you can:
1) Monitor at sufficiently low levels so that there is no heat build up.
2) Use an equaliser to roll off the low bass (less than 70Hz)
Once you know where the possible dangers lie, you will probably not blow
anything up - a bit of common sense goes a long way.
|>Thanks in advance.
|>
|> /Thomas Jansson, d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se
Anyone got anything else to add?
Alex.
Dave Woodall
>I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
>are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
>to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
>would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
>filter?
A greater frequency range will not affect your stereo at all - you just
won't hear them. Just be careful not to send too strong a signal from your
mixer to your stereo's amp. You could blow your woofers and/or damage your
amp. Start with a low setting and increase it until it matches the volume
of some of the other inputs (CD, tape, ...).
Dave
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dave Woodall | e-mail: woo...@adrs1.dseg.ti.com | Plano, TX |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything! Bartman
Dan Harkless
Jay Kadis <j...@ccrma.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>Based on personal experience, yes, you can damage your home stereo with a
>synthesizer. I managed to blow a Sansui woofer with a Korg Poly-Six ...
>actually, my wife did, but that's another story...I don't think a filter would
>help. A limiter might, but it's still pretty risky. It's not so much the
>frequencies as the amplitudes that do the damage, at least in my case.
Yeah, I blew a tweeter doing an extended angst-induced noise solo on
one of my SH-101s. Gotta watch those levels. Otherwise, you should be okay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Harkless | "The sore in my soul |
| d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu | The mark in my heart -> Front 242, |
| dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu | Her acid reign..." Tragedy >For You< |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Altekruse
>I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
>are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
>to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
>would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
>filter?
It isn't that synths produce frequencies that your stereo can't handle but
rather that they can produce frequencies at amplitudes that could cause
problems, namely in your speaker. In natural sounds very high frequencies
are generally fairly weak in intensity. Speaker designers take advantage
of this fact by using tweaters for home hi-fi speakers that can only a
fraction of the power that the mid-range and bass speakers do. A synth can
produce high frequencies at much higher intensities relative to the rest of
the audio spectrum.
Some speakers (like mine) fuse the tweater so the worse that can happen
is that you replace the fuse. Studio monitor speakers are designed for
high output and use tweaters designed for higher signal levels so they
probably won't blow out at reasonable volume levels.
You could low-pass your synth output but of course it will dull the sound
a lot if you cut down the high frequencies enough to ensure no damage to
the tweaters.
I can think of two reasonable solutions. First one is the easiest: play
your synth a little lower level than you know your speakers can handle,
especially when you are playing sounds that are extremely bright. The
other solution is to go ahead and fuse the tweaters (putting the fuse in
series with the signal, of course). Audio purists who spend more on
their hi-fi than they do on their house might argue that the fuse will
degrade the signal slightly, but I can't hear a difference in my system.
- David Altekruse, d...@netcom.com
C J Silverio
d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se (Thomas Jansson) writes:
|I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
|are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
|to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
|would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
|filter?
A compressor/limiter would probably be a better idea.
---
C J Silverio ce...@netcom.com ce...@well.sf.ca.us
Dan Bennett
> My suggestion: Sell your stereo amplifier and speakers. Buy a professional
> power amp and studio monitors or PA speakers. You'll never have to worry about
> blowing anything with your synths, and that CD of the 1812 Overture with real
> cannon shots sounds incredible!!!
So are a power amp + near field monitors suitable for hi-fi listening?
Regards,
Dan.
.------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Dan Bennett : Uni* mail: d...@hpwina39.uksr.hp.com |
| Telephone: (+44) 344 361870 (GMT) |
| Fax : (+44) 344 361737 |
| Hewlett-Packard UK Response Centre, |
| Amen Corner, Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, UK |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Djorlong haan bain weh?", as they say in Outer Mongolia. |
`------------------------------------------------------------------------'
Stephen E. Hale
To be more specific... I'm using a Peavey 100W+100W studio-oriented power amp
and a pair of Audio Centron CE-126 3-way PA speakers. There's a bit of a boost
in the midrange that I don't like, but that's what EQs are for. Other than that
it handles everything beautifully. Great for classical CDs because the reserve
power is there to handle the transients. The amp has a built-in limiter so you
can never clip it, and the nominal power rating on the speakers is higher than
the amp, so you can never blow them either. I've used this system for playing
gigs, for practice sessions, for my stereo (in a dorm-room nonetheless).
I would like to get studio monitors at some point...but these work great for
general purpose. Note that not all PA-oriented speakers have the frequency
range these do, that's why I picked them.
Can You Say Puyallup?
> So are a power amp + near field monitors suitable for hi-fi listening?
This has been debated here before, but it's been my experience that monitors
and reference amps are designed to reflect the music as starkly as possible,
which is not necessarily a good thing in a hi-fi/home stereo setting. YMMV.
LAiRD
--
..
/\.. prism magazine (pr...@amherst.edu) | laird j. nelson
::/__\.. amherst college, amherst, ma | ljne...@unix.amherst.edu
..
David Altekruse
>It's the bass you've got to be concerned about ...
I'm sure it is possible to blow out any of the drivers in most speakers
including the woofer (although many woofers, including mine, reach excursion
limits and go into severe distortion long before damage to the speaker
occurs) if you crank up the volume enough. But this could occur just as
easily when playing any source, not just synths. The question the original
poster had was whether there was anything different about a synth compared
to other sources that might damage his hi-fi system.
Certainly synths are capable of producing lots of bass that could cause
woofer problems in many speakers if played loud enough but then so can many
CD's in my collection. Bass amplitude is greater than the rest of the audio
spectrum in a wide variety of recordings. As I mentioned in my previous post,
the main difference between a synth and most other musical instruments is that
a synth is capable of producing a a much higher percentage of its output in
the high frequencies compared to the rest of the audio spectrum. The result
is that it is possible when playing a synth to be playing it at levels that
don't sound excessive when in fact you are producing high frequencies at
higher amplitudes than the tweater can handle.
- David Altekruse, d...@netcom.com
Scott Amspoker
>
>I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
>are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
>to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
>would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
>filter?
Using a home stereo for live playing carries its risks. There is a
tendancy to turn it up louder than if you were just listening to a CD
and there is the possibility of unanticipated dynamics. However, if you
run at normal volume levels there shouldn't be any problem. Also, make
sure your mixer levels are set properly. The one time I blew a tweeter,
it was caused by clipping a mixer channel - not by excessive volume. Also,
if your mixer has -10dB outputs then use them. It's unlikely that your
synths can produce frequencies above 20KHz and it shouldn't matter to your
stereo if they did.
--
Scott Amspoker |
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | [X] NONE OF THE ABOVE
|
sc...@bbx.basis.com |
kis...@adcalc.fnal.gov
> From d3th...@dtek.chalmers.se (Thomas Jansson):
>
>>I know that synths can produce frequencies that home stereo equipment not
>>are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
>>to my home stereo can I damage it? I guess that some kind of a low-pass filter
>>would do the job am I right? If so, can I use a simple capacitor-resitor
>>filter?
>
> A greater frequency range will not affect your stereo at all - you just
> won't hear them. Just be careful not to send too strong a signal from your
> mixer to your stereo's amp. You could blow your woofers and/or damage your
> amp. Start with a low setting and increase it until it matches the volume
> of some of the other inputs (CD, tape, ...).
>
> Dave
until the VCF was set on maximum 'regeneration' and the 'cut off' frequency
was above my hearing range. With a scope, I observed the waveform transitions
'ringing' at about 22kHz with rather large amplitudes. This was after the
tweeters had fried. - Wally
KIS...@ADCALC.FNAL.GOV
Pekka Martikainen
... and the nominal power rating on the speakers is higher than the amp,
so you can never blow them either.
You can. The tweeters of your speakers can't eat so much power as the
ratings tell you. It's about the fifth. So you can blow your speakers.
Not with classical music, but high frequency square wave might do it.
It is poison for almost any electrical audio equipment.
Pekka Martikainen
Gijs Bok
I am somewhat amazed that nobody mentioned my view of the audio-world:
Problem 1:
Asking too much from an amplifier causes it to clip,
thereby introducing very high frequencies, which dissipate in the
tweeters, which 'burns' them in the end.
I see two solutions:
1. Buy a powerful enough amplifier to prevent clipping.
2. Insert a gizmo between amp and speaker that filters out
everything over 20 kHz. I don't know if such thing exists, though.
Problem 2:
Most amplifiers have no trouble amplifying signals way above
20 kHz, which may also cause speaker damage. Don't trust the specs
on the upper frequency limit.
Solution: Get an amp that doesn't do this.
Am I wrong or incomplete here?
I play my Roland Sound Canvas over a 15-year old stereo, which sounds
OK. I don't dare turning it up too loud, though.
--
Gijs Bok (gi...@mbase97.hacktic.nl)
Listen to M-BASE music!
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Dan Harkless
Gijs Bok <gi...@mbase97.hacktic.nl> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am somewhat amazed that nobody mentioned my view of the audio-world:
>
>Problem 1:
>Asking too much from an amplifier causes it to clip,
>thereby introducing very high frequencies, which dissipate in the
>tweeters, which 'burns' them in the end.
One thing I don't understand is the emphasis on avoiding clipping.
Why is this so bad? If it is so bad, wouldn't playing square waves (as from
an analog synth) be the worst thing you could do? Yet there are square waves
all over techno and other albums, and there certainly aren't warnings like
"This CD contains square waves, which may damage your speakers."
John Lazzaro
Dan Harkless <d...@cafws2.eng.uci.edu> wrote:
>Yet there are square waves
>all over techno and other albums, and there certainly aren't warnings like
>"This CD contains square waves, which may damage your speakers."
A lot of 'rounding-off' of the square-wave edges happen in the long path
between the synth in the studio to the speakers in your home ...
Dan Harkless
Hmmm. But playing loud VCF-all-the-way-open square waves from my
SH-101s or Xpander doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects on my speakers
either. So are we talking like frequencies higher than the highest frequency
a 4 pole filter (heck, I'm sure I've used 1-poles on my Xpander too, at one
time or another - also, high-pass filters) will pass when completely open, or
what? I mean, in terms of "rounding off", only filtering the signal is gonna
do that...
Pekka Martikainen
Hmmm. But playing loud VCF-all-the-way-open square waves from my
SH-101s or Xpander doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects on my
speakers either. So are we talking like frequencies higher than the highest
frequency a 4 pole filter (heck, I'm sure I've used 1-poles on my Xpander
too, at one time or another - also, high-pass filters) will pass when
completely open, or what? I mean, in terms of "rounding off", only
filtering the signal is gonna do that...
The outputs of analog synths don't provide much frequencies over 20kHz,
even if all filters are open. That's because analog synths are full of
fixed lowpass filters. Every capacitor between the ground and signal
path is a lowpass filter. And you can find them everywhere. One exception
could be Keith Emerson's modular Moog which is said to go even 100kHz.
But when amplifier clips, it produces very high frequencies (very sharp
square wave that no synth can do) which are very loud too. Amplifiers can
output this stuff only when it clips. And you never get higher frequencies
than 20kHz out from CD.
Pekka Martikainen
Matt Arnold
>In article <H.eg.7BJ...@mbase97.hacktic.nl>,
>Gijs Bok <gi...@mbase97.hacktic.nl> wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>I am somewhat amazed that nobody mentioned my view of the audio-world:
>>
>>Problem 1:
>>Asking too much from an amplifier causes it to clip,
>>thereby introducing very high frequencies, which dissipate in the
>>tweeters, which 'burns' them in the end.
> One thing I don't understand is the emphasis on avoiding clipping.
>Why is this so bad? If it is so bad, wouldn't playing square waves (as from
>an analog synth) be the worst thing you could do? Yet there are square waves
>all over techno and other albums, and there certainly aren't warnings like
>"This CD contains square waves, which may damage your speakers."
A square wave, such as one produced by a synthesizer, has a "clipped"
signature. However, when it is said that an amplifier "clipped" a
signal, it means that the level of the input signal was so high that
it caused the amplifier to attempt to output more power that it is
capable of. The amp simply does not have the power to amplify
the signal to the desired level and it gets "clipped". This is just a
phenomenom of electronics.
For example, say you fed an amp a nice sine wav and kept increasing
the input level until the amp could no longer amplify the signal to, say,
twice the input level (or whatever the current "amplication" factor is).
Eventually, clipping of the sine wave would occur, as the amp reached it's
maximum output limit. In short, it would do the best it could, but
would fall short when amplifying the highest peaks of the input wave.
Bring the input level back down and clipping stops. The sine wave would
then again be amplified faithfully, within the limits of the amplifier.
A square wave, when played at low level, still retains it's clipped
signature. That's just the type of wave it is. It does not mean
that an amplifier is "clipping" it. You could amplify the "clipped"
square wave well within the limits of some amplifier, and the final
output would still be the "clipped" square wave.
Amplifier "clipping" and a "clipped" wave are are two differnt things.
Indeed, one way to produce a clipped wave is by over-amplifying any other
wave beyond the limit of your amplifier!
Matt
Rhun Roberts
price of 180 pounds.....any offers? Desperate to sell, else I'll have
to sell my body !!
Rhun.
Paul Race
>Hi,
>I am somewhat amazed that nobody mentioned my view of the audio-world:
>Problem 1:
>Asking too much from an amplifier causes it to clip,
>thereby introducing very high frequencies, which dissipate in the
>tweeters, which 'burns' them in the end.
>I see two solutions:
>1. Buy a powerful enough amplifier to prevent clipping.
>2. Insert a gizmo between amp and speaker that filters out
> everything over 20 kHz. I don't know if such thing exists, though.
>Problem 2:
>Most amplifiers have no trouble amplifying signals way above
>20 kHz, which may also cause speaker damage. Don't trust the specs
>on the upper frequency limit.
>Solution: Get an amp that doesn't do this.
>Am I wrong or incomplete here?
>I play my Roland Sound Canvas over a 15-year old stereo, which sounds
>OK. I don't dare turning it up too loud, though.
Square waves can damage any speaker in the system, not just the tweeters.
On the woofers, it's not the high frequencies, it's the fact that the
speakers are forced to bounce between extremes (rather than coasting smoothly
between them as they do when playing, say, sine waves and most kinds of
undistorted music).
Beyond that, though, I think the percussive spikes of, say a piano chord
hitting especially loud, are more likely to fry evey high-rated stereo
speakers in the blink of an eye than distortion is likely to fry them over
time.
That said, I use a 30-watt amp and a couple of $80 Radio Shack speakers to
monitor in my hobby setup, and have never had a problem, even though I listen
at what you would consider a reasonable level.
I mix on a $400 pair of "digital-ready" home stereo speakers with
liquid-cooled midrange and tweeter, and a 50-watt amp, with no problems,
despite reasonably high volumes.
My employer is not responsible for my opinions. I'm not
altogether sure that I am!
---------------------------------------------------------------
| Paul Race Paul....@DaytonOH.ncr.com |
| (513) 445-1665 FAX: 445-7196 |
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Rivers
> One thing I don't understand is the emphasis on avoiding clipping.
> Why is this so bad? If it is so bad, wouldn't playing square waves (as from
> an analog synth) be the worst thing you could do?
Square waves reproduced at a normal level aren't particularly harmful to
your speakers. Clipping is something different, though. It's caused
by the amplifier exceeding it's normal power limit, so they're
produced at an abnormally high energy level. As far as average power
is concerned (the RMS average doesn't care about the polarity), a
square wave represents 100% duty cycle - it's like dumping the full
power supply voltage and current into the speaker. Ouch!
------------
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Pekka Martikainen
Square waves can damage any speaker in the system, not just the tweeters.
On the woofers, it's not the high frequencies, it's the fact that the
speakers are forced to bounce between extremes (rather than coasting
smoothly between them as they do when playing, say, sine waves and most
kinds of undistorted music).
Because high frequencies are filtered out from the signal going to woofers
it is more sine like. At least it should be.
Beyond that, though, I think the percussive spikes of, say a piano chord
hitting especially loud, are more likely to fry evey high-rated stereo
speakers in the blink of an eye than distortion is likely to fry them over
time.
No, if the spikes don't clip the amplifier.
Pekka Martikainen
R. Alan Monroe
> : > are made to handle. If I wan`t to connect my synths (thru a Boss BX-16 mixer)
> hearing's sake) running your midi system at anything like PA power levels, you'll not
> likely ever drive a decent home stereo amp to clipping levels in normal use.
Can't drive it to clipping?
I have a good sized ( ~100W) JVC and a TS10...
I have to keep the volume slider of the TS10 at around 20% or below to
prevent clipping! Of course then it is really noisy... :^(
So I just stick to headphones :^)
Have fun
Alan
Dan Harkless
R. Alan Monroe <mon...@muvms6.wvnet.edu> wrote:
>
>Can't drive it to clipping?
>I have a good sized ( ~100W) JVC and a TS10...
>I have to keep the volume slider of the TS10 at around 20% or below to
>prevent clipping! Of course then it is really noisy... :^(
>So I just stick to headphones :^)
You're clipping a 100W amplifier with the output of your synth?? That
doesn't sound right...
R. Alan Monroe
> Can't drive it to clipping?
> I have a good sized ( ~100W) JVC and a TS10...
> I have to keep the volume slider of the TS10 at around 20% or below to
> prevent clipping! Of course then it is really noisy... :^(
Boy am I stupid... I had it going into "PHONO"...
I switched it to "VCR2" now the levels are fine... duh.
Heh heh heh.
Have fun
Alan
Stephen E. Hale
You're not using the PHONO inputs on your receiver/amp are you? That would
cause the problem you're having with clipping.
Dan Harkless
Yeah, I thought there was something wrong there... But what you did
isn't as st00pid as what I did with MY synths and home stereo:
I was really getting pissed off because the absolutely lovely bass
sound in Nick's "Dawn and Brigid" sounded like it was being run through a
cheap fuzz box. I couldn't figure out why in the world my CD player or
receiver should be overloading. Then in doing testing, I happened to turn on
my synths. Pow! The distortion was gone. "HUH???" I thought...
Checking my connections, which is always difficult in my setup since
my receiver is on top of my narrow bookshelf against a wall, I discovered that
instead of having my mixer output going into the VDP input, it was going into
the TAPE 1 _output_! The receiver sends whatever audio it's playing out all
the TAPE sends, so it was trying to send audio down the neck of my mixer
output. When the mixer was off, this was no-go due to impedance or whatever
(I'm no electronics genius, obviously). So, the Tape 2 output was, um, backing
up into the receiver and causing that overloading.
Actually, it's a good thing this did cause distortion with the synths
off, else I might never have caught it. It's pretty trippy that when playing
the synths into the Tape 2 output, you could hear it just fine when selecting
VDP (where I thought they were going in) as a source. In fact, you could
hear the synths in the background of any source if you played them while
selecting that source. "Wow, I can play along to CDs, but why???"
So, yep, the moral of Mr. Monroe's and my story:
CHECK YOUR CONNECTIONS CAREFULLY.
Doug Blackley
with a
synthesizer.
Wow, what a drag that would be. I have run synths through home stereo
speakers many times with no problems--but don't start out with the
volume turned up! If you hear distortion turn it down...that's all
there is to it. good luck!
Steve Bergstedt
|> R. Alan Monroe <mon...@muvms6.wvnet.edu> wrote:
|> >
|> >Can't drive it to clipping?
|> >I have a good sized ( ~100W) JVC and a TS10...
|> >I have to keep the volume slider of the TS10 at around 20% or below to
|> >prevent clipping! Of course then it is really noisy... :^(
|> >So I just stick to headphones :^)
|>
|> You're clipping a 100W amplifier with the output of your synth?? That
|> doesn't sound right...
|>
|>
Clipping at 20%of full volume? Sounds like an impedance mismatch of some kind.
Maybe a mic input?
--
Steve Bergstedt | "I want a 3-mile long trumpet with keys that
be...@areaplg2.corp.mot.com | open steam valves along the sides, and midgets
Notator Logic for Mac, ks32| running up and down the legnth banging on the
Motorola CCR&D Schaumburg | insides with ballpeen hammers. " -je
Dave Schwartz
my sterero (120w/ch, smallish 2way bookshelf speakers [but that's
another tale]) aux in. Kept the volume fairly low. A few days
later I noticed that it sounded like the speakers were in a closet.
Sure enough, both tweeters were dead. And I thought that hooking
up the keyboard was putting the woofers at risk!.
Now I have a new pair of speakers for my stereo. They sound great,
much better than the old ones. I don't think I'm going to try
hooking up that keyboard again.
So: Can I damage my home stereo by using it to amplify a synth?
---
Dave Schwartz | "Did you think these tracks
da...@smartstar.com | in the dust would last?"
VMS FOREVER | David Crosby
Dan Harkless
Matt Arnold <mar...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> One thing I don't understand is the emphasis on avoiding clipping.
>>Why is this so bad? If it is so bad, wouldn't playing square waves (as from
>>an analog synth) be the worst thing you could do? Yet there are square waves
>>all over techno and other albums, and there certainly aren't warnings like
>>"This CD contains square waves, which may damage your speakers."
>
>Amplifier "clipping" and a "clipped" wave are are two differnt things.
Yes, yes, I understand all that. But people are implying that any
clipped wave, even at a nominal amplitude, will damage your speakers. In
that case, unfiltered square waves should destroy speakers too. They haven't
hurt mine, though. And what about all those old computers that made sounds
just by clicking a speaker between max and min amplitude (frequency / pulse
modulation only - no amplitude modulation - ex. Apple ][ or IBM built-in
speaker)? All those computer speakers are undamaged...
Dan Harkless
Okay, so we _are_ talking about over-20K frequencies. Thanks for
the clarification, Pekka. Now I understand why they were saying in that
Keyboard article that Keith's modular was so dangerous. I couldn't quite
comprehend how it was much different from any other analog...
John Lazzaro
Dan Harkless <d...@cafws2.eng.uci.edu> wrote:
>
> Hmmm. But playing loud VCF-all-the-way-open square waves from my
>SH-101s or Xpander doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects on my speakers
>either.
I blew a set of tweeters once with a square wave from a Moog Rogue played at
moderate volume through consumer-quality amplifiers and speakers. Your
mileage may vary, I guess ...
Alan Kerr
so, does anyone know of a good 'filter box' circuit to prevent damage
to a stereo. ...probably a 'brickwall filter' plus something like a
limiter?
Alan
--
Alan W. Kerr awk...@aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory awk...@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
Michael R. Kesti
da...@smartstar.com (Dave Schwartz) writes:
> Kept the volume fairly low. A few days
>later I noticed that it sounded like the speakers were in a closet.
>Sure enough, both tweeters were dead.
>So: Can I damage my home stereo by using it to amplify a synth?
Yes, one CAN damage a home stereo this way (and a great many other "normal"
ways, too), but it doesn't mean that one WILL. In the case you cite, I'm
curious as to why you didn't notice the problem for a few days. If the
damage had been done by the use of the synth, I would expect any such damage
to be immediately apparant, and that you would have noticed it then, as you
would have been actively listening. What other abuses might have been
suffered by this stereo in those few days?
--
============================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
Grass Valley Group | two, one and one make one."
m...@gvgdsd.GVG.TEK.COM | - The Who, Bargain
Pekka Martikainen
so, does anyone know of a good 'filter box' circuit to prevent damage
to a stereo. ...probably a 'brickwall filter' plus something like a
limiter?
The filter box should be between the amplifier and the speakers. But it
is not a good idea, because it changes the impedance of the speakers.
The best indicator is your ears. Select a pure sine wave (40Hz - 80Hz)
depending of the size of your speakers. Turn up the volume (from the amp)
and when you start hearing distortion, then you know that the amplifier
is clipping (unless the speakers can't handle the power, see the specs).
Turning the volume knob further than that you can easily burn the tweeters.
This test must be done with low sine frequencies because you can hear
the distortion easily and low frequencies consume power much more than
upper frequencies.
Pekka Martikainen
Jeff Smith
|> For what it's worth: Not too long ago I connected a keyboard to
|> my sterero (120w/ch, smallish 2way bookshelf speakers [but that's
|> another tale]) aux in. Kept the volume fairly low. A few days
|> later I noticed that it sounded like the speakers were in a closet.
|> Sure enough, both tweeters were dead. And I thought that hooking
|> up the keyboard was putting the woofers at risk!.
|>
|> Now I have a new pair of speakers for my stereo. They sound great,
|> much better than the old ones. I don't think I'm going to try
|> hooking up that keyboard again.
|>
|> So: Can I damage my home stereo by using it to amplify a synth?
|>
this thread. I'm just not that strong.
The big problem with hooking synths up to a stereo is that a synth
is going to have much *much* greater dynamic range than your average
bit of recorded music. So, it's very easy to have something reach a
high volume when you thought it was fairly quiet. If it reaches a
high enough volume, then your amp will clip, which is what fries speakers.
And another thing...this clipping causes distortion, which flattens out
the waveform making it look square. This is *not* the same thing as
playing a square wave with your synth at a reasonable volume through
the stereo. Not at all. Hell, a square wave is remarkably similar to
a clarinet...I don't see anyone asking if Clarinet music will damage
their stereo :-)
Sometimes the synth output may overdrive the inputs, although generally
they seem matched decently enough. Even if this does happen, I wouldn't
expect the speakers to suffer.
jds
Allan Borr
>
>The filter box should be between the amplifier and the speakers. But it
>is not a good idea, because it changes the impedance of the speakers.
>The best indicator is your ears. Select a pure sine wave (40Hz - 80Hz)
>depending of the size of your speakers. Turn up the volume (from the amp)
>and when you start hearing distortion, then you know that the amplifier
>is clipping (unless the speakers can't handle the power, see the specs).
>Turning the volume knob further than that you can easily burn the tweeters.
>This test must be done with low sine frequencies because you can hear
>the distortion easily and low frequencies consume power much more than
>upper frequencies.
>
>Pekka Martikainen
This is absolute nonsense.
Even a moderate power home stereo amp is capable of generating enough
high frequency energy to fry most tweeters before clipping.
If your tweeters go, it's more likely from excessive high frequency
content at the at the source (synth) rather than amp clipping.
If you've got an old analog synth that's capable of generating
gobs of highs and (inaudiable) ultrasonic tones, then stick
a low pass filter between the synth and the hi fi amp to be safe.
If you've got a modern digital synth, and it's not broken,
relax and play. If the tweeters didn't go while you were playing,
it's unlikely that they blew as a result of your synth playing.
Al Borr
Megatest Corp
San Jose, California