*Snicker* - Vince Clark analog arrogance.
Gregory Winer
Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
good laugh. What a goof. And to think there will now be a legion of
Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
gregory6 "hello-everyone,-my-name-is-gregory6-and-I-use-MIDI" winer
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
j a c k i n , b a b y:
g r e g o r y - 6
n a t i o n o f t e f l o n s o u l s
Joe McMahon
Gregory Winer <as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>And to think there will now be a legion of
>Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
>thinking they're the shit.
May I correct your tense? Change "will now be" to "already are".
--- Joe M.
D.A.C. Crowell
>initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
>'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
>little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
>picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
>good laugh. What a goof.
I've always though Vince Clarke was an overhyped pile of rubbish...and
this article really doesn't do much to dispel this opinion. I'd _love_
to see how he plans to do polyphonic doublings between two (or more)
synths without MIDI. Granted, yes, you _can do it that way_...but it
uses more cords than Charlotte's Web and isn't nearly as stable or
powerful as MIDI. Of course, what _do_ I expect from a synthesist that
consistently gets the same dozen sounds from _any_ piece of synthesis
gear he uses?
> And to think there will now be a legion of
>Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
>thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
Laugh? No, the sad thing is that this is already happening. I got hold of
one acid CD by someone who is actually on the net, and which makes great
hooplah over the fact that there's no MIDI, pure CV interfacing and
DIN sync only. How does it sound? Well, if jackhammers could sing...
CV and analog have their uses. MIDI and digital have theirs.
The big skill in these days when they exist side-by-side is to make
the right uses of each, not unlike a painter and his pallette. To use
one _exclusively_ and to deny the other would be like painting a landscape
and not using color values like blue or red because most of the
color in the scene is green anyway, and if you have lots of greens,
you don't need the other colors. End results in both cases: very skewed
music or a distorted, screwy painting.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>\ "...the language of classical music is
D.A.C. Crowell |not any use for what people are doing in
Audio Design and Programming |music now. It's a very crude approxi-
The Aerodyne Works |mation. It's even less useful for talking
Champaign, IL, USA. |about texture because it never bothered
(da...@tigerden.com) |to evolve any terms for it. It didn't
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>/ need to." --Brian Eno
Zak May
> I've always though Vince Clarke was an overhyped pile of rubbish...
You people are strange. Vince always says two things at the same time -
that he does not use MIDI, and that he wouldn't trade his Mac Plus for
a "newer model". Now - doesn't that strike you as self-contradictory?
___
Zak.
Neil Durant
>
> Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
> initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
> 'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
> little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
> picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
> good laugh. What a goof. And to think there will now be a legion of
> Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
> thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
People like that should really be releasing things entirely on vinyl,
otherwise their precious analogue signals might get digitised!!!
Neil "I'll have Vince's old MIDI retrofit units thankyou" Durant
Kevin Dolorico
>
>Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
>initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
>'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
>little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
>picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
>good laugh. What a goof. And to think there will now be a legion of
>Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
>thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
I thought this article was WAY-FUNNY. :) Vince Clarke is a funny guy...
He's so absurdly british(In a monty python/douglas adams sort of way). :)
>
>
>gregory6 "hello-everyone,-my-name-is-gregory6-and-I-use-MIDI" winer
>
>--
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> j a c k i n , b a b y:
> g r e g o r y - 6
>n a t i o n o f t e f l o n s o u l s
\ _ _ /
See me! <o o> THE FUTURE!!!
Feel me! /----oOO----\_/-----------\
Hear me! | Kevin Dolorico | The Technomaster.
Love me! | kwd...@acf.nyu.edu |
Touch me! \------------------oOO----/
Adam Soudure
>Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
>initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
>'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
>little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
>picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
>good laugh. What a goof. And to think there will now be a legion of
>Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
>thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
Amen to that!
I am getting heartily sick of people in the industry (mainly fabulously
rich rock stars...) saying that Analog is the Best and Digital is crap
(this doesn't just restrict itself to synths, but Tape machines and
Signal Processors too).
I rather happen to like my Roland D50, CM32P, K1r and Gravis Ultrasound.
This stuff isn't at the cutting edge, but it does the job for my
purposes. I also have an ESQ-1 (which I like rather a lot), but I call
this a hybrid analog/digital synth. My point is: all equipment is
useful, iff you USE it, it doesn't matter if its analog or digital, it
is useful to you -- use it. Just because I own digital equipment, doesn't
mean that the sounds I produce from my rig are crappy (well, not to my
ears anyway)
Give me the convenience of digital recorders, synths, samplers etc
anyday over temperamental old Moogs/Obies etc. I am not flaming analog,
I like it, but I just hate it when certain luddite musicians say that
anything digital is garbage..
Rant Mode OFF
>gregory6
Adam
*** RUSH ELP YES QUEEN QUEENSRYCHE FATES-WARNING KING'S-X ***
*** Adam Soudure can be reached at: ***
*** gil...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au ***
*** IRON-MAIDEN MOTORHEAD GENESIS KANSAS TRIUMPH K-CRIMSON***
Larry Buickel
: >
: >Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
So what does Erasure do when they "perform" at a concert. Is it all
track music, do they put the MIDI retrofits back in :) and sequence
everything, or do they have a bunch of people actually playing?
--
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Larry L. Buickel | I'm a hopeless chauvinist! Every time I begin to
lar...@bga.com | explore my feminine side, I always stop and
| cop a feel ...
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Will write DCE apps for food =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Randy McDow
a backing tape, just as Depeche, etc. do.
And it is a great show...
Randy
--
Randolph W. McDow finger vaps0rm|more for mo' info
http://www/sohndbk/soh.htm is taking up a good chunk o' my time.
= - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"I'll come to your bible study if you come to my ritual sacrifice." JP Montagnet
Aaron J. Trumm
to be expressed that couldn't be otherwise, like say, take my over 50 originals
all of which rule. For someone like me with an extreme creative talent, yet
not so an extreme physical skill level or social following, the technological
breakthroughs of today are a godsend. Most of the pompous ass p*ssies that
try to flame digital or MIDI and stuff are wanabe fake ass stupid untalented
assholes who love to horn in on the world of creativity and let people believe
they actually contribute. I say f*ck any accoustic instrumentalist that won't
play a part and let me mix it with MIDI and create something beautiful.
Murph
~enhanced--todd sines
with all of the drum sounds also coming from analogue synths, not drum
machines, too.
(re: arp sequencers, odysseys, and 2600's; serge & buchla modulars, and some
roland modular stuff....plus the old BMI music computer with a whopping 128k
(if that) of memory)
gaaawwwddd.
todd
--
++ todd sines ~
++++ sin...@osu.edu / si...@sn.com / si...@well.sf.ca.us / si...@hyperreal.com
++++ 240 W.4th Ave, Columbus, OH 43201 * 614 291 0967 * pager 614 481 2746
++ analogue heaven adminstator * ars * ELE MENT * enhanced * zinc studios
Bruce Henderson
(Richard Martin) writes:
> In <32tdei$g...@giga.bga.com> lar...@bga.com (Larry Buickel) writes:
> Anyways, just becuase a guy likes analog and has gotten extremely
> successful is no reason to give it to him so bad. Some people freak over
> cars, buy lots of old ones, and take out anything that was new and try
and
> find original pieces. Some people freak over guns...
>
> SOme people obviously spend to much time and energy freaking over what
> other people freak over... to the point of E-mail linching. Sure he
acted
> kinda rude in his interview, not that I noticed until it was pointed out
> here. He was not putting down people who use midi, just midi itself. He
> did some tests, and found he liked cv-gates better. so what.
> Chill out...
HEY Richard
Some of us like being pissed off and raising a stink about things that
suck. We refuse to let arrogance go un-taunted. Vince has gotten way too
full of himself, and if we are the only community that tells him to shove
his favorite CV lead where the sun don't shine, so be it.
There are some folks out there who's ego out-paces their talent by a long
stretch. Let's do a little side by side... We are going to compare folks
who have some talent and some who are tremendous posers. You may not like
the music they make, but at least they can play, and try not to make asses
out of themselves when they open their mouths
Louts
=====================
Vince "I found a man who sounds like Alison Moyet" Clark
Alphex Twin / Polygon Window / Richard "Didn't I sound like a jerk" James
Mr "Gee what a lovely big ego I have" Moby
Regular folks
=====================
Paul Schafer
Tony Banks
Keith Emerson
Read the thread about how there are almost 0 bands with keyboards in the
mainstream right now.... maybe it's because of the big TUDE these creeps
are sporting.
Bruce
<< Not a sanctioned opinion of NeXT, Inc. >>
Kevin Dolorico
>In <32tdei$g...@giga.bga.com> lar...@bga.com (Larry Buickel) writes:
>
>>track music, do they put the MIDI retrofits back in :) and sequence
>>everything, or do they have a bunch of people actually playing?
>
>used to use midi in his concerts, but he used a totally analog sequencer
>(cv-gates) in the last tour. He rode around in a little retro-fit tank,
>constantly changing sounds as he played.
the last concert tour was AMAZING!!!
True, vince rode around in the little tank-thing, but he also danced in the
ABBA Section(remember Voulez Vous's foot dragging dance thing?)). Also...they
played one song using a Casio keyboard at the front of the stage, just to show
people that Vince could use cheesy rhythms and play chords with his left hand.
:)
A lot was going on during the concert(It was almost a full blown theatrical
production, with like 10 dancers, complete sets, etc, etc). Awesome.
I saw it at the Beacon Theater in NY...perhaps it was a little different
elsewhere? It was much more entertaining than a Depeche Concert, imho(then
again, Erasure has no "personal-Jesus"-type theme song....
>
>Anyways, just becuase a guy likes analog and has gotten extremely
>successful is no reason to give it to him so bad. Some people freak over
>cars, buy lots of old ones, and take out anything that was new and try and
>find original pieces. Some people freak over guns...
>
>SOme people obviously spend to much time and energy freaking over what
>other people freak over... to the point of E-mail linching. Sure he acted
>kinda rude in his interview, not that I noticed until it was pointed out
>here. He was not putting down people who use midi, just midi itself. He
>did some tests, and found he liked cv-gates better. so what.
>Chill out...
I thought he was funny. sheesh. :)
I'm sure he was trying to be funny. :)
>
>Richard
>NOiSE
>--
>RICHARD MARTIN. . . . . .C.Y.B.E.R.A.D.D.I.C.T.
>NOISE. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . ..N...O...I...S...E...
>............. . . . . . . . . . . .....................
> . . . . industri...@UManitoba.CA.
\ _ _ /
<o o> Low key, as usual.
/----oOO----\_/-----------\
| Kevin Dolorico | The Technomaster.
| kwd...@acf.nyu.edu |
\------------------oOO----/
Gregory Winer
In a previous article, lar...@bga.com (Larry Buickel) says:
>So what does Erasure do when they "perform" at a concert. Is it all
>track music, do they put the MIDI retrofits back in :) and sequence
>everything, or do they have a bunch of people actually playing?
>
Supposedly, it's all on tracks. V.C. plays a lot of live keys too. I
guess (according to article) on their last tour, he played keys from a
tank outside rigged with video cameras so he could catch the cues.
Whathefuck? That was another funny part of the article. Once again, I
suggest you read it for a good laugh at "artistic aloofism" =)
Brian McWilliams
>
I read the article. I don't like Erasure. The article was cool and I
also like MIDI. There are different paths. Diversity is cool. I also
thought that his remarks were well founded and intelligent. Nothing wrong
with having your own opinion and not being afraid to voice it. Go Vince!
Richard Martin
>Remember that the entire album of I Say x3 was composed entirely in STEP time,
>with all of the drum sounds also coming from analogue synths, not drum
>machines, too.
>(re: arp sequencers, odysseys, and 2600's; serge & buchla modulars, and some
>roland modular stuff....plus the old BMI music computer with a whopping 128k
>(if that) of memory)
Not only that, but they laid down the vocals FIRST with little more than
chords to keep people in tune, and then laid down music...
Takes guts...
Richard Martin
>HEY Richard
hey! even my name at the top... guess I gotta reply...
>Some of us like being pissed off and raising a stink about things that
>suck.
'suck' in YOUR opinion... but obviously not to the HUGE and GROWING number
of people who do listen to Vince and his techno gang...
And maybe if you spent more time doing your own thing, and not getting so
pissed off at what other people with so-called less talent are doing and
making a living at it, then you could get your master plan underway to get
rid of anyone less talented than Paul Shauffer (spelling?) out of music...
We are going to compare folks
>who have some talent and some who are tremendous posers. You may not like
>the music they make, but at least they can play, and try not to make asses
>out of themselves when they open their mouths
first, Vince never said he could play... Keyboard made fun of his
chicken'pluck style of playing I believe...
second, lets edit this a bit and see what happens
>Louts
otherwise known as...
people who are making it in the world without meeting YOUR standards...
>Vince "I found a man who sounds like Alison Moyet" Clark
>Alphex Twin / Polygon Window / Richard "Didn't I sound like a jerk" James
>Mr "Gee what a lovely big ego I have" Moby
>Read the thread about how there are almost 0 bands with keyboards in the
>mainstream right now.... maybe it's because of the big TUDE these creeps
>are sporting.
Man Bruce, if you think that Aphex Twin, Vince clarke and Moby have
actually caused a decrease in mainstream keyboard use, your giving more
credit to these guys than they do deserve...
Alot of people go to McDonalds for burgers, but it isn't the best food in
town. If your going to blame McDonalds for the decrease in fine food
restaurants, then you better think again...
'Food' for thought...
Paul W. Campbell
jeesh, some posters around here need to chill out. evidently,
vince is not the only arrogant one. i am sure he is at the bank right now
saying, "ooohhh, some people on the internet don't like me, i'll take
that in hundreds please." just because he is famous doesn't mean you have
to put him in his place. go practice your scales and quit bitching. it
serves no purpose and is entirely too defensive to sway my opinions at
all. and i'll do the comparisons when i read articles about the whiners
here in keyboard magazine.
ps. paul schaffer is a major weenie
Paul Campbell = mco...@infinet.com
Pounce, Intl. "When I nod my head, you hit it"
Po Box 164171 -Laurel and Hardy
cols, Oh 43216-4171 USA
..............................................................................
mco...@infinet.com
..............................................................................
Tom Moravansky
a month or so earlier, Klaus Schultze basically said he wished all the
amateurs would stop making music, that the technology has made it too easy for
bad music to appear.
I would have thought Klaus' comments would hit closer to home than any
MIDI versus CV discussion.
Zak May
> I wonder why everyone is up in arms over the Vince Clarke interview when only
> a month or so earlier, Klaus Schultze basically said he wished all the
> amateurs would stop making music, that the technology has made it too easy
> for bad music to appear.
Why? 'Cause everybody knows it's true. You know, in Russia music was illegal
just several years ago. And let me tell you - it was in a *much* better shape
than the American pop scene.
Vince Clarke makes great records - he can do what he pleases.
___
Zak.
John Kramer
>initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
>'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
>little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
I have to agree. It's a pity that a magazine called "Keyboard" doesn't
dedicate a little bit more space to things like keyboard reviews rather than
than the volume of opinions they put out, many of which are no more than
self gratifying pulp from (IMO) people dubious talents.
Dave Garner
>: In article <CuL34...@freenet.carleton.ca>, as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gregory Winer) writes:
>: >
>: >Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
>: > ...
>So what does Erasure do when they "perform" at a concert. Is it all
>track music, do they put the MIDI retrofits back in :) and sequence
>everything, or do they have a bunch of people actually playing?
In the case of music like Vince's, more likely they are using
backing tapes (analogue). It still makes sense to me in a way,
I can never tell the difference between sequences and tapes of
sequences, you just loose a little flexibility in performance
in return for a much less nerve-racking, more reliable backing
source.
How annoying that this self appointed Avatar of Analogue rode
to individual fame in Yazoo by exploiting the Fairlight CMI.
Perhaps that is why none of his subsequent music has ever sounded
quite so good...
PierrePressure
David Churcher
>[...]
>Laugh? No, the sad thing is that this is already happening. I got hold of
>one acid CD by someone who is actually on the net, and which makes great
>hooplah over the fact that there's no MIDI, pure CV interfacing and
>DIN sync only. How does it sound? Well, if jackhammers could sing...
That's a compliment in some circles. :-)
>[...]
>you don't need the other colors. End results in both cases: very skewed
>music or a distorted, screwy painting.
And so is that. :-)
--
da...@wsti.demon.co.uk (David Churcher)
Anthony Robert Ruggeri
Just out of curiousity... when he was talking about MIDI being a load of crap,
was that basically only referring to MIDI retrofits? With no experience with
these things, I can't say personally, but I've heard that some retrofits for
the older synths are horrendous. I can't imagine that CV gates can be so
much tighter than a modern MIDI implementation, but maybe compared to trying
to run his banks of analog geezers (no offense intended!) with a digital
protocol just didn't cut it....
--
arug...@phoenix.princeton.edu \ "60,000 weevils are somewhat
Department of Molecular Biology \ intriguing, but their relevence
Princeton University, Princeton NJ \ is open to dispute."
\
John Vulich
(he always makes self depricating comments in interviews) that he has to find
something he can be brag about being a master of. So he chooses midi timing
errors which do exist but I think few if any people can hear them. So since
no one can hear these errors who's gonna argue with him... and now he is
percieved as some kinda master of this stuff. I can't believe he takes himself
so seriously. Oh well...
JV
Thomas Darling
> Vince has gotten way too full of himself, and if we are the only
> community that tells him to shove his favorite CV lead where the sun
> don't shine, so be it.
Well put! And I thought we were in agreement until you presented these
sorts as a superior product:
> Paul Schafer
> Tony Banks
> Keith Emerson
You've gotta be shittin' me. The common thread with these three is that
they haven't generated an original sound in 20 years, with the exception of
Paul Shaeffer, whose idea of originality is ripping off two different great
R&B piano players' riffs in the same song.
The thing that makes Vince Clarke a lamer, as this thread originally alluded
to, is his ridiculous and uninformed comments about analog superiority. I
hate to be the one to point this out, but Paul Shaeffer and Keith Emerson
have been guilty of the same exact thing. I can't speak for Tony Banks,
because I don't read him, but his work on this decade's worth of Genesis
material involves primarily electric piano presets and bland M1 pads.
> You may not like the music they make, but at least they can play, and try
> not to make asses out of themselves when they open their mouths
Can they play? Have they done anything interesting in my lifetime? I'm
certainly not going to defend Vince Clarke. He's a weenie and his music
doesn't do anything for me. But despite his comical lack of a grip on the
realities of digital technology, it's certainly better to be an active,
creating, composing artist than to be a dead fossil like the three
throwbacks put forward here.
-----------------\\\----------------------------------------------------
Thomas A. Darling \\\ Call The Cellar Electronic Community: 610.539.3043
dar...@cellar.org \\\ Digital SoundLab Studio: Truth Through Technology
--------------------\\\-------------------------------------------------
Eric Oehler
1) I like Vince Clarke's stuff. always have. While I think sometimes
that all-analog sound is goofy, I admire him for at least attempting it.
It must've been a major bitch to set all that up, being there wasn't much
of a standard CV/gate protocol on any of those beasts. No matter how
outlandish his opinions may be (taking retrofits off may be kinda weird)
he is allowed to have them and as long as he keeps putting out stuff
that's interesting to listen to, I don't give a damn what sort of
equipment he's using.
2) Moby seems to be a decent guy when you talk to him. I haven't had any
really in-depth conversations with him, but he's never appeared too
blatantly egotistic.
3) Paul Schaeffer is a muppet. Just watch him play, you'll see what I mean.
Just my $.02, as usual.
--
=----------------------------------------------------------------------=
| Eric Oehler wo...@dax.cs.wisc.edu |
=----------------------------------------------------------------------=
Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds?
- Anon
Scott Amspoker
>Anyways, just becuase a guy likes analog and has gotten extremely
>successful is no reason to give it to him so bad.
It's not that he likes analog, it's the negative strawman arguments about
MIDI. Methinks he doth protest too much. Removing MIDI retrofits just
on principle? That's not the action of a reasonable person who simply
has a preference of one thing over another. That's throwing a tantrum.
It reminds me of Joan Crawford and wire coat hangers.
--
Scott Amspoker | 1898 - American author Morgan Robertson publishes the
Basis International | novel "Futility" in which a British passenger liner
sc...@basis.com | called the "Titan" hits an iceberg and sinks on
| her maiden voyage...in April in the North Atlantic.
Ricard Wolf
>In the case of music like Vince's, more likely they are using
>backing tapes (analogue). It still makes sense to me in a way,
>I can never tell the difference between sequences and tapes of
>sequences, you just loose a little flexibility in performance
>in return for a much less nerve-racking, more reliable backing
>source.
On the other hand, a live performance _is_ nerve-racking. I personally
hate backing tapes; I like the stuff to be played on stage, even if
the player happens to be a 6809 CPU or whatever...
To really play it safe, show a video. Then on the other hand, it's not
so exciting at a live concert...
/Ricard
--
Ricard Wolf / | \ / | /- email: ric...@axis.se
Axis Communications AB /__| \/ | \__ uucp: axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND / | /\ | \ Tel: +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN / | / \ | \__/ Fax: +46 46 13 61 30
Jon Elliott
Crowell) wrote:
> In article <CuL34...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
> Gregory Winer <as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >
> >Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
> >initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
> >'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar" and the
> >little anecdote about _removing_ MIDI retrofits from keyboard finds he
> >picked up because it's "a matter of principle", I just sat back and had a
> >good laugh. What a goof.
>
> I've always though Vince Clarke was an overhyped pile of rubbish...and
> this article really doesn't do much to dispel this opinion. I'd _love_
> to see how he plans to do polyphonic doublings between two (or more)
> synths without MIDI. Granted, yes, you _can do it that way_...but it
> uses more cords than Charlotte's Web and isn't nearly as stable or
> powerful as MIDI. Of course, what _do_ I expect from a synthesist that
> consistently gets the same dozen sounds from _any_ piece of synthesis
> gear he uses?
The drum sounds are OK. A little bassy, maybe, but OK. Personally, I find
his whole approach to programming a kick drum ghastly (i.e. set oscillator
or oscillators to as low as they can go, put a percussive envelope over the
top modulating amplitude and filter and - presto - sounds just like an 808.
Boring) but some of the hi-hats and syn-triangles are good. The snares
sound like they were cribbed from an 808/909 hybrid which had no top-end
response.
The synth sounds themselves are pretty average. It's easy to see how he
does a lot of it. Arpeggiators are easy to use, no?
> > And to think there will now be a legion of
> >Erasure wannabes picking up multiple analog synths and sequencers,
> >thinking they're the shit. If you want a good laugh, read this one.
>
> Laugh? No, the sad thing is that this is already happening. I got hold of
> one acid CD by someone who is actually on the net, and which makes great
> hooplah over the fact that there's no MIDI, pure CV interfacing and
> DIN sync only. How does it sound? Well, if jackhammers could sing...
DINsync? Well, he was using 303s, 606s and 808s. What garbage. My 303 is
used somewhat sparingly. More fun to program your own drum and acid
sounds, anyways (although I'm hard pushed on my gear to do a lot of these
things - not enough modulation routings). CV interfacing? To be avoided
at almost any cost. I use it sparingly, also. Nothing beats MIDI as far
as I'm concerned. Most analog stuff is useful only if you can easily at
least sync it to MIDI. I run a helluva lot of pure analog stuff via the CV
coming out of my 303 and this is about as far as I'm prepared to go.
> CV and analog have their uses. MIDI and digital have theirs.
> The big skill in these days when they exist side-by-side is to make
> the right uses of each, not unlike a painter and his pallette. To use
> one _exclusively_ and to deny the other would be like painting a landscape
> and not using color values like blue or red because most of the
> color in the scene is green anyway, and if you have lots of greens,
> you don't need the other colors. End results in both cases: very skewed
> music or a distorted, screwy painting.
Sure, CV has its uses. I wouldn't be able to do half of what I do at the
moment without analog interfacing. However, I don't (and will never) own
any type of analog sequencer. With the filtering power available on a lot
of digital instruments today you can probably blast sys-ex at a lot of them
to produce analog sequencing effects on the filters. Sure works with the
Juno-106 component of my MKS-7. Lovely. In fact, most digital gear is
immensely capable when it comes to sequenced control. No analog-head
knob-twiddling there and this probably results in some kind of deeper
thought going into the production of textures (as opposed to the "tweak the
knobs of my 303 so that it goes 'gllooooop' rather than 'bzatt' - gee
that's neat!" approach).
We have few excuses for doing things in such a retro fashion as Vince.
Let's not unless it's absolutely necessary.
--
Jon.
-----
Jonathan "MIDI is good but it's not supposed to be General" Elliott
jell...@postoffice.SandyBay.utas.edu.au
"Don't wizz on the electric fence!"
-----
Shawn Keve
All I want to say is this...
I don't understand why so many people mention MIDI problems or tech
problems during live performances.... in my 4 years of performing live with
plenty of MIDI gear (SY77 controlling R8M, S50, etc... and even controlling
guitar effects racks, ALESIS & Digitech), I have never once experienced a
problem with MIDI...
I find it puzzling.. I've read reviews about electronic bands... and many
times they mention "if it weren't for their technical difficulties..."... I
find it annoying... if you are properly set up (using your equipment the
right way) and it works in REHEARSAL, you shouldn't have any problems...
Andrew D Milligan
Like it or not he has been and continues to be something of an electronic
music pioneer. For years he was using "cutting edge" digital synths (the best
bucket loads of cash could buy) and has made a far more informed choice than
90% of us could ever hope to. He has one of the finest collections of analogs
in the world and they are in frequent use rather than stored as collector's
items.
His studio probably was a total bitch to set up but he has had the best help
around and has had many fitted with CV/Gate retrofits. As far as the sequencing
goes it is almost all done on hardware sequencers with little more than sync
signals coming from the BBC model B computer (an Atari, Mac or PC platform
would add nothing to the way he works).
On the last tour the music was driven from multitrack CV sequencers and
through necessity he used synths with patch memories. The only tapes were
old Roland (or was it Arp) digital tape machines (dating from long before DAT)
which drove the sequencers - no backing tapes.
I would say his comment about removing MIDI retrofits was a joke and it has
wound up a large number of humourless people. Lighten up guys!
> Gregory Winer <as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >
> >Anyone read his little interview in Keyboard? After I got over the
> >initial pompous statements like [paraphrasing] "If anyone says the word
> >'MIDI' in the studio, they have to put 25 pence in the cuss jar"
Another joke perchance? Guess I must have been exempt when I showed him how
to work his Groove Electronics MIDI2CV box 8-)
Andy M.
Gregory Winer
In a previous article, ke...@ll.mit.edu (Shawn Keve) says:
>
>
>All I want to say is this...
>
>
> I don't understand why so many people mention MIDI problems or tech
>problems during live performances.... in my 4 years of performing live with
>plenty of MIDI gear (SY77 controlling R8M, S50, etc... and even controlling
>guitar effects racks, ALESIS & Digitech), I have never once experienced a
>problem with MIDI...
>
Sure, that's all well and good, if you've only got 3 or 4 synths. I use
upwards of 8 synths and samplers in my setup, plus effects, plus the PC.
Most of the keyboards have at least2 outputs, and some as many as six
which I use simultaneously. It takes about one hour to reconfigure the
entire studio for one song, since each song and effect requires different
routing. Add to this mix time, which if I'm particularly fast that day,
will take about 2 hours for one song. Being conservative, and assuming
that I'd have a lot of this worked out before hand, that's about 2.5 hours
per song before I'm ready to play. This is completly unacceptable. It's
quite easy to belittle bands for using backing tracks live, but the truth
of the matter is that it's a very difficult project to undertake, if one's
music and synth setup is moderatly sophisticated. Now, lets go back to
the example...OK, I haul all 10 synths out. Let's figure on 26 lines of
sound, conservatively. But wait, I have to patch in the F/X rack. That's
another 9 lines there (3 mono sends, 6 stereo returns). I'm not going to
try to mix and EQ all of that shit on stage, heaven's no. The best way to
do it, is to send those lines back to our mixer at the console, That's
his job right? Well, to make it easy on him, I'll consolodate some of
thos lines in a mixer of some soret, seperating highs, lows (bass), drums
hi, drums low, and live (played) keys. That's about 9 or 10 lines back to
the board. But it'll be hard, because he can't touch the EQ. What if I
boost the mids in my attempts to mix the song on stage? Then he hits the
mids. I'll tell you what happens: The audience goes home with a
permanent high-end rolloff. Not such a good idea to try and mix yourself.
So let's assume that we figure that mess out, *Ahem*, "Excuse me Mr.
Audience (ther's only one person left by this point, since you've already
driven them away with your crappy mix), I need to take a few minutes her
to run this sequencer and check all the lines...can you wait a minute?
Yea, whatever, see ya later, chum.
I take a great deal of time mixing my tapes for the live situation. It is
not easy, quick, or convenient, it's a neccessity. I don't know what type
of show you/your band puts on, but I can say that our show will rip your
sox off. I have some keys on tape, some live, some drums on tape, some
live, and I have a down time of 1 second (yes, 1 second) between songs.
Some may go into that whole improvisational thread, and true, that has
it's place - we too have one or two minimalist "live" songs using a
non-MIDI casio rapman, drums, guitar, and vocals - but after having tried
this live performance thing for 5 years, I have found this to be the most
effective, efficient, and entertaining way to perform for my setup.
gregory6
Gregory Winer
In a previous article, an...@dsbc.icl.co.uk (Andrew D Milligan) says:
>Accusing Vince of "uninformed comments about analog superiority" is ridiculous.
>Like it or not he has been and continues to be something of an electronic
>music pioneer. For years he was using "cutting edge" digital synths (the best
>bucket loads of cash could buy) and has made a far more informed choice than
>90% of us could ever hope to. He has one of the finest collections of analogs
>in the world and they are in frequent use rather than stored as collector's
>items.
No one disputes the fact that Clark's sounds are fantasticly creative, or
that he is a musical pioneer. The point I was making was that he could
have stated his point in a much more understated way. I'd have to say
you're the one without a sense of humor, because, as I stated in my
original post, I laughed quite a bit after reading that article. His
pompous arrogance was downright humorous. Sorry if I haven't had the
chance to work with Clark as you have personnaly, because I'd very much
like to see what he is _really_ like. But let's face it, if you're going
to do an interview, you open yourself up to criticism. That's the whole
point, duh, to state your point of view. Just because empowering
technology allows us to respond to these points of view, we should not
shut up and not express ourselves as well. If I had a conversation with
you, and you sounded like a pompous fool, even if you were an accomplished
musician, I would call you such.
To sum it all up, my original point was:
"Vince Clark's interview makes him sound like an arrogant analog cronie",
not "Vince Clark is a talentless geek", as he is obviously not.
Humility is something we should all practice - myself included. One would
think that someone of his stature would have perfected it by now.
Scott Amspoker
That might have made an interesting thread but no one brought it up. I
think most of us agree that there is a lot of crap out there. However,
blaming technology is too simple minded, even for usenet.
Burnt A. Christian
Randy McDow <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
> Andy sings and Vince plays a keyboard or guitar (acoustic) to
>a backing tape, just as Depeche, etc. do.
Vince must use old 8-track analog reel-to-reel without any noise
reduction to capture all that authentic analog hiss...
--
@}----;------
-Burnt
Joe Katzbeck
splicing blocks, and Scotch tape. Typically one uses a Nagra deck to sample the analog sound in the field and then speed varies for pitch, flips tape for
envelops, mixes for texture, and loop splices for repetition and creation of
longer passeges.
It takes between 40 to 80 hours of studio work for about a minute of
music. I know. I took a whole semester of this at my University just to completea 3 minute piece. Though it was the most interesting thing I've done in music inquite awhile I'm not sure I wan't to do it again. It does weed out the wanks
though.
The best I've heard though was done for orchestra by this Polish guy whowrote "Dies Irae" and "Thredony", a piece dedicated to the brave souls who
fought and died against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto. These pieces will give
you a creepy feeling for days. They were also used as background music in the
movie "The Shining".
Don't drink? Don't smoke? What do you do? Hmmm, must be something
inside.
Joe Katzbeck jkat...@comp.uark.edu
Brian Ross
>>I wonder why everyone is up in arms over the Vince Clarke interview when only
>>a month or so earlier, Klaus Schultze basically said he wished all the
>>amateurs would stop making music, that the technology has made it too easy for
>>bad music to appear.
Klaus has an interesting viewpoint, considering his own professional legacy
to the industry: that electronic music can be boring, unskilled, and
uninspired, and yet still be commercially viable.
--
_____________
Brian Ross \__________________
br...@sandbanks.cosc.brocku.ca \___________________
Disclaimer: I speak for myself. \_____________________
http://sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca/bross/index.html Carpe carpum! \
Jon Deutsch
Why does Vince use analogue techniques to sequence instead of MIDI?
a) bored.
b) feels that if he didn't do something different, he'd fade
quickly into the vat of talented songwriters/sequencers
who are just as elegible to *not* break into pop as he.
c) Andy doesn't like digits? (jk)
d) all of the above.
_ ___________________________________ _
_ - _ - // /// // /// // /// // /// // /// - _ -
- -- --- -- --- -- --- -- --- -- --- - -
"For my 2 cents, -=-=-=-=-=-= I'd pay a dollar"
---------------- j...@midi.com -----------------
S T A Y -=-=-=-=-=-= T U N E D
Gints Klimanis
Silverio) writes:
|> ---
|> tmor...@netcom.com (Tom Moravansky) writes:
|> |I wonder why everyone is up in arms over the Vince Clarke interview
|> when only
|> |a month or so earlier, Klaus Schultze basically said he wished all
|> the
|> |amateurs would stop making music, that the technology has made it
|> too easy for
|> |bad music to appear.
|>
Klaus Schultze needs bad music for his music to be any better.
Otherwise, he would be at the bottom of the barrel.
LSasso
(Jonathan Gwynne) writes:
>"people who have no business making music"
Aren't they the best kind ?
Jonathan Gwynne
>Subject: Re: Vince Clark's critics analog arrogance.
>From: lsa...@aol.com (LSasso)
>Date: 24 Aug 1994 09:39:03 -0400
That depends, often they are...
Dave Garner
> No, no, no. Really far out music is only created with razor blades,
>splicing blocks, and Scotch tape. Typically one uses a Nagra deck to sample the analog sound in the field and then speed varies for pitch, flips tape for
>envelops, mixes for texture, and loop splices for repetition and creation of
>longer passeges.
> It takes between 40 to 80 hours of studio work for about a minute of
>music. I know. I took a whole semester of this at my University just to completea 3 minute piece. Though it was the most interesting thing I've done in music inquite awhile I'm not sure I wan't to do it again. It does weed out the wanks
>though.
Sound like the original Dr Who theme?
> The best I've heard though was done for orchestra by this Polish guy whowrote "Dies Irae" and "Thredony", a piece dedicated to the brave souls who
>fought and died against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto. These pieces will give
>you a creepy feeling for days. They were also used as background music in the
>movie "The Shining".
Wasn't that all Walt/Wendy Carlos?
> Don't drink? Don't smoke? What do you do?
[subtle innuendos follow]
PierrePressure
Tom Ritchford
Well, bully for you!
In the real world, you have to deal with such problems as
faulty power (which did in the memory of my RFC-1 in one concert)
and having to set up before the show (thus, other acts can
accidentally knock out MIDI cables and the like before you
go on.) MIDI cables that worked in rehearsal can fail...
the list is endless. You have to make sure you have spares
for everything, that you understand the whole system. With
sometimes only 15 minutes to set up a rig that may involve 100
or more interconnections, you've got to get accurate and
get good at debugging.
I might add that it's much easier if only one person is using
MIDI equipment... with multiple MIDI senders and receivers,
there are many more possibilities for error.
Actually, we've been very lucky and haven't had too many problems.
The weirdest was one concert where, for some reason, something
kept triggering the drum machine to play its demo sequence
(it would have had to have been a SysEx?!?) Everything was
hooked up correctly and we were never able to reproduce this at
home or in any other venue. It happened three times in the course
of the show: the audience loved it, though. Go figure.
--
/t
Tom Ritchford t...@mvision.com (212) 227-1610
Market Vision, 40 Rector Street, NY, NY 10006
Send snail mail address for free sub to "The Journal of Pataphysical Reviews"
peter mueller
>From: dav...@scorch.hna.com.au (Dave Garner)
>Subject: Re: *Snicker* - Vince Clark analog arrogance.
>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 10:55:10 GMT
>jkatzbec@comp..uark.edu (Joe Katzbeck) writes:
Nope, that movie made liberal use of Penderecki (the Polish Guy), Ligeti (a
Hungarian ) and Bartok (another Hungarian)
Scott Amspoker
>problems during live performances.... in my 4 years of performing live with
>plenty of MIDI gear (SY77 controlling R8M, S50, etc... and even controlling
>guitar effects racks, ALESIS & Digitech), I have never once experienced a
>problem with MIDI...
My one and only MIDI problem ever:
Once during a live performance, my KX88 suddenly transposed an octave.
This left some stuck notes that were quickly "stolen" and I compensated
by playing in the different octave. I doubt anyone even noticed.
At the end of the song I reset the KX88 and everything was back to normal.
I have no idea why how that happened except that the place we were
playing had a much-worse-than-average electrical system.
AntMan
found a methodology in Analog that works for him. That's fine by me. I
won't do it, but if he wants to step-time sequence everything and it
makes him happy... all the better.
Although, in all honesty, I think the new album (Erasure) sucks overall
(really poor songwriting), it's nifty that ALL the sounds were
synthesized. That's pretty amazing. Personally though, I would just
sample all those percussion sounds and trigger them over MIDI.
I challenge anyone to hear the difference between a CV sequence and a
MIDI sequence. Too subtle for my ears - and mine are pretty good...
However, I find Klaus Shultze utterly irritating, WAY overrated, and
totally boring. He hasn't done anything new, original or interesting (or
good for cryin' out loud!!) since 1975. Get a life and wake up and smell
the coffee. Richard James (Aphex Twin) runs rings around him any day...
or minute. Far more interesting texturally, compositionally and
production-wise.
john...@chrysalis.org
I was going to stay out of this conversation because I thought it was silly
without even reading the Keyboard article. Okay, I bought the magazine
and I read the text. Where's all the arrogance? I admit that the photos
of Vince Clark suggest a bit of attitude through his body language, but
I appreciated his honesty in what he said. Taking the MIDI retrofits off
his analog gear (that's all he uses now) may seem a bit drastic, but I have
considered it myself-just not for the same reason. I've owned multiples
of quite a few analog synths. Some had MIDI retrofits and some did not.
In every case, the non-MIDI versions sounded better-fatter-brighter-smoother.
Perhaps this is coincidence, but maybe not. One friend of mine sent his
TR808 off to be MIDI'd. He felt that the sound had changed (for the worse)
when he got it back. Anyway, I applaud VK for coming clean about his lack
of keyboard skill and arrangement knowledge. He makes music HIS own way
with the equipment he likes and understands. Sometimes I even like what
he comes up with.
Nick Rothwell
In article <TOM.94Au...@tom.mvision.com> t...@mvision.com (Tom Ritchford)
writes:
>With
>sometimes only 15 minutes to set up a rig that may involve 100
>or more interconnections, you've got to get accurate and
>get good at debugging.
Or, you gig with a small, compact, simple, prewired rig. I've done the
100-connection gig in the past, and have had a number of minor problems (MIDI
Time Pieces failing to route Roland messages across RS422 causing stuck notes,
Lexicon effects browning out, that sort of thing) but, miraculously, nothing
major. These days I don't tempt fate. In both my recent gigs I used just two
synths (either the two Wavestation racks, or the MKS-70 and MicroWave), two
effects (LXP-1, LXP-5) and a simple MIDI mixer, controlled by MAX on a PB.
That's complicated enough, thanks, but setup time for this 6U rack is about two
minutes, which is good, and breakdown time is quick enough that I can get to
the arts critics at the same time that the dancers emerge from the dressing
rooms, which is perfect.
--
Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance ni...@cassiel.com
NOW WASH YOUR HANDS PLEASE
Nick Rothwell
In article <atomicCv...@netcom.com> ato...@netcom.com (atomic city)
writes:
>Having been basically crucified here for several years myself by
>dozens of FM-gulping sample-wanking me-too-ers who crowed about how
>analog was "dead,"
>...
>(I mean, shit, who listens to _Exit_-era Tangerine Dream any
>more, right?)),
Ah, yes, EXIT. Tangerine Dream's first - sorry, second - feet-first jump into
*digital* instruments (well, I suppose the PPG is a hybrid since it combines
the unreliability of analog with the unreliability of computer-based digital; I
mean, the front panel was even divided into two separate sections so that they
could cease to function independently).
>Mr. Clarke has a set of goals, the will to
>follow them, and a complete disdain for anyone who puts anything in
>his way; while he could learn some manners, the drive he exhibits is
>admirable,
I get KEYBOARD by surface-mail so I've not read this yet; but I think
denigrating other people's efforts is not a constructive and, erm, self-honest
thing to do. While I get irritated if people claim that Me-Too sample playback
boxes are superb, shit-hot, happenin' synthesis engines, since that only
misleads neophytes into wasting their money and also plants preconceptions into
audiences, I don't mind if people actually do useful stuff with them, so long
as I can plug away with my MicroWave, Wavestations, and MAX-equipped PowerBook.
However, I also have complete distain for anyone who puts anything in my way,
as a lot of people here probably know.
>The only way anyone here is ever going to get
>Mr. Clarke's attention concerning his way or working is if they
>speak from the same platform he used, i.e. the cover of KEYBOARD.
Do we have a date for that yet, Mike?
>What are YOU doing, people?
Me? Oh, I just got offerred a rather big dance/installation/music commission.
Well if the Scottish Arts Council coughs up, so it's rather more likely that
actually I haven't. But who knows?
Malte Rogacki
Okay, lets come back to the main topic: MIDI vs. CV.
Although I don't like Vince Clarks music and haven't read the interview yet I
must say that there is something to CV control. The timing problems of MIDI are
not inherent in the MIDI standard but the instrument design itself.
Lets take a closer look at some vintage synth: The Prophet 5. The main loop of
the system software times 8 milliseconds. That means that it might take up to 8
milliseconds until the software recognizes that a key had been pressed! Now the
system software jumps to the key-routine, calculates the CV for the oscillators
and fires the note. After all, it may take up to ten milliseconds between
pressing a key and the actual start of the note.
Now lets look at MIDI. A lot of MIDI retrofits work this way, that they
translate the MIDI data to key commands (Kenton). This means additional time
and the above scenario.
On the opposite site, if you feed a synth a control voltage it reacts instantly
since it will not use the computer part calculations.
Malte Rogacki ga...@sax.sax.de 10011...@compuserve.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't forget to TURN ON THE SYNTHESIZER. Often this is the reason why you
get no sound out of it." (ARP 2600 Owner's Manual)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Runyon
definitely do exist. However, to a keyboard player, they are FELT
before they are heard. I'm talking about delay between the depression
of a key and the onset of a note. It can be due to three things:
1. Slow conversion of the action into a note on event by the controller
2. Slow processing of the note on by the receiving unit
3. Clogging of MIDI data stream, for instance by too much (unthinned)
continuous controller data
In a star configuration, IN->THRU latency is not a factor. However, in a
ring, this latency would add yet another possible source of delay,
number 4.
Number (1) would mean "get a better controller".
Number (2) depends on the synth. Sometimes a delay is worth the sound.
If you are using a sequencer, and the delay is constant, you can
compensate by shifting the entire track ahead. If not, it is very annoying.
Number (3) should be avoided by supressing or filtering out or thinning
continuous controller data, or by splitting the MIDI into multiple
networks. A decent MIDI protocol analyzer, like the one in Sequencer
Plus or the shareware MIDITEST program, will help you diagnose and
correct this type of problem.
Number (4) is not a factor if you use a star configuration (which do.)
>DATE: Sat, 20 Aug 94 04:30:55 -0500
>FROM: John Vulich <johnv...@delphi.com>
>
> It's so obvious that Vince Clark is so insecure about his minimalistic
>style (he always makes self depricating comments in interviews) that he has
>to find something he can be brag about being a master of. So he chooses midi
>timing errors which do exist but I think few if any people can hear them. So
>since no one can hear these errors who's gonna argue with him... and now he
>is percieved as some kinda master of this stuff. I can't believe he takes
>himself so seriously. Oh well...
>
>JV
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++ from the disk of Steve Runyon p00...@psilink.com ++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jon Elliott
wrote:
> I was going to stay out of this conversation because I thought it was silly
Bingo. The analog v. digital war is boring, indeed.
> without even reading the Keyboard article. Okay, I bought the magazine
> and I read the text. Where's all the arrogance? I admit that the photos
> of Vince Clark suggest a bit of attitude through his body language, but
> I appreciated his honesty in what he said. Taking the MIDI retrofits off
> his analog gear (that's all he uses now) may seem a bit drastic, but I have
> considered it myself-just not for the same reason. I've owned multiples
> of quite a few analog synths. Some had MIDI retrofits and some did not.
> In every case, the non-MIDI versions sounded better-fatter-brighter-smoother.
> Perhaps this is coincidence, but maybe not. One friend of mine sent his
> TR808 off to be MIDI'd. He felt that the sound had changed (for the worse)
> when he got it back.
Huh? How? Why? The sound generation hardware is still the sodding same!
I know this. It's a fact. If I could, I'd retrofit a few of my old analog
boxes which I love dearly but have to interface them to other things
(pain!). To run my Axxe, I have to program a sequence on my 303 (ugh!) and
run CV and Gate outputs to the Axxe. I run my SH-101 from the percussion
outputs of my MKS-7, triggering the arpeggiator (blecch!) and my MC-202
controls the Moog. If you've ever programmed a 202 or 303's sequencer,
you'd know what I mean about MIDI being good.
>Anyway, I applaud VK for coming clean about his lack
> of keyboard skill and arrangement knowledge. He makes music HIS own way
> with the equipment he likes and understands. Sometimes I even like what
> he comes up with.
--
Jon.
-----
Jonathan Elliott
Jon Elliott
> The best I've heard though was done for orchestra by this Polish guy whowrote "Dies Irae" and "Thredony", a piece dedicated to the brave souls who
>fought and died against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto. These pieces will give
>you a creepy feeling for days. They were also used as background music in the
>movie "The Shining".
The composer was Penderecki (Polish). Used a whole string ensemble for
Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima who were striking their instruments
with mallets, scaping the strings against metallic objects and tapping the
strings with various implements as well as playing them. Rather good,
really! He's in the John-Cage-I-Can-Be-Wierder-Than-You school of
composers but is much less overrated and I believe that it's more so
because he's so rarely discussed. Unlike Cage, you can listen to his music
and find it more fun than just talking about it.
--
Jon.
-----
Jonathan Elliott
Burnt A. Christian
>
>Okay, lets come back to the main topic: MIDI vs. CV.
>Although I don't like Vince Clarks music and haven't read the interview yet I
Well, to be fair, I do like his music (and haven't read the article
either)
mr808
ga...@gacki.sax.de (Malte Rogacki) writes:
> The timing problems of MIDI are
> not inherent in the MIDI standard but the instrument design itself.
Question: Please explain how I can make all the MIDI instruments in my
studio play a note (sent on different MIDI channels w/ different
velocities) AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.
Answer: buy a bunch of MIDI retrofitted Chromas and hook them up w/ the
Chromaface, not MIDI. The TIMESTAMPING function inherent to the
interface will make sure they play at (essentially) the same time.
Timing is a crucial component of music, and MIDI's serial timing delays
are well above the threshold of human perception. MIDI's got a BIG
problem THAT IS INHERENT TO ITS DESIGN. It has to shovel all the data
down a SLOW serial path. There is NO way to accurately ensure what
time a note will play. There's no way to ensure when a particular note
is going to be played, at least on no hardware/software combo I've
seen. Sure, buying a Studio 4 or MIDI Timepiece or whatever w/
multiple MIDI outs will mitigate the problem to a certain extent
(unless you're running into some multitimbral instrument (who isn't
these days?).
When Vince first started talking about this stuff (see his 1990
Keybored interview), I thought he was full of shit. Educated listening
and experience w/ CV gear have proven otherwise. Maybe you like your
music to be SLOP CITY, but I don't. I love that robotic precision (I'm
not too keen on Vince's happy melodies, though, and Andy's vocals make
me cringe, but sometimes he comes up w/ a cool sound).
Eric Hodges
: In article <25...@gacki.sax.de>
: ga...@gacki.sax.de (Malte Rogacki) writes:
: > The timing problems of MIDI are
: > not inherent in the MIDI standard but the instrument design itself.
: Question: Please explain how I can make all the MIDI instruments in my
: studio play a note (sent on different MIDI channels w/ different
: velocities) AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.
Answer: The serial delays in MIDI are tiny. Much smaller than many other
factors that go into when a note starts. I've never seen an instrument
tested that had an accuracy below the speed of two MIDI note on events.
If you can hear MIDI delays (which I doubt) then you won't be happy with
any modern synths.
And heaven forbid you use a live human with some analog device like a
clarinet. Humans use neural paths which are (gasp) serial, and transfer
data more slowly than MIDI. And the speed changes based on trace levels
of many different chemicals in the bloodstream.
--
hod...@TeleCheck.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed herein are entirely mine. I do not represent
TeleCheck Services Inc. If TSI were to express an opinion right
now, it would probably be "Hey, Eric, get back to work!"
mr808
>factors that go into when a note starts. I've never seen an instrument
>tested that had an accuracy below the speed of two MIDI note on events.
>If you can hear MIDI delays (which I doubt) then you won't be happy with
>any modern synths.
I don't have any problem hearing the havoc MIDI wreaks w/ a song's
"feel". Haven't you ever noticed how robotic Kraftwerk sounds? Listen
to Erasure's MIDI albums (pre '90, I believe), and listen to their CV
albums (if you can stand the happy music, I can't). Program a drumbeat
on a TR-808, and program the same beat on your computer, triggering
your sampler (loaded up w/ 808 samples). Just for fun, play a
bassline, chords, & melody on the same MIDI cable. Now solo the
drumbeat. You're going to tell me it sounds just the same as the 808,
right?
I've noticed that a lot of Techno artists are assembling drumloop
samples from discrete samples and playing the loops, because the "feel"
of the beat gets trashed when you start piling on MIDI data.
I wasn't always a snob about this, in fact, I thought Vince was an
idiot back in '90 until I heard the difference. Maybe you don't need
this precision in your music; fine, I'm not going to trash it just
because it's not what I'm into. Just don't tell me what I can and
can't hear.
Oh, and I'm not to keen on modern synths. I've got a DX7II, but that's
it.
Actually, I've thought about designing a MIDI buffer that would
synchronise all MIDI data by delaying it until the next clock, w/
programmable pre-delays for each synth's processing delay. Of course
it wouldn't work w/ a multitimbral synth (what isn't these days), or
chords. I decided I'd rather have a CV sequencer.
mou...@delphi.com
Note that Clarke announces (proudly? scornfully?) that he's not a "muso"
(i. e. musician). As an avowed "muso" since childhood, I found that very
funny. A little "muso-ship" usually doesn't hurt.
-- Rob Mounsey, Flying Monkey Inc., NYC
<mou...@pan.com>
Thomas C Butcher
> factors that go into when a note starts. I've never seen an instrument
> tested that had an accuracy below the speed of two MIDI note on events.
> If you can hear MIDI delays (which I doubt) then you won't be happy with
> any modern synths.
Well, by the sound of it, you haven't ever played with analog
sequencing. While the math of the delays in MIDI says you can't tell
whether they're there or not, if you listen to, say, an 808 playing a
drum loop, or some sort of analog CV/gate sequencer and compare it to
some MIDI device playing the same thing, you will be able to tell the
difference. Analog sequencing and the older drum machines have a much
different feel than does MIDI, and I wasn't aware of this until I
listened to quite a bit of older electronic music (Kraftwerk, old
Jean-Michel Jarre, Tangerine Dream, etc.). Quite some time ago, when I
tried to do songs similar to the old Kraftwerk tracks, I couldn't get
the songs to feel the same... and that's so because I was using a MIDI
sequencer and sampled drum sounds.
> And heaven forbid you use a live human with some analog device like a
> clarinet. Humans use neural paths which are (gasp) serial, and transfer
> data more slowly than MIDI. And the speed changes based on trace levels
> of many different chemicals in the bloodstream.
You must admit, however that the interaction of humans in a musical
setting cannot be treated the same way as electronic equipment. No one
will disagree (at least I hope no one will!) with you that any sampler
or synthesizer can replicate exactly the performance or style of a human
musician using an acoustic instrument. The difference here is that
musicians are playing the instruments, not machines.
Tom
Ricard Wolf
>
>> Answer: The serial delays in MIDI are tiny. Much smaller than many other
>> factors that go into when a note starts. I've never seen an instrument
>> tested that had an accuracy below the speed of two MIDI note on events.
>> If you can hear MIDI delays (which I doubt) then you won't be happy with
>> any modern synths.
>
>Well, by the sound of it, you haven't ever played with analog
>sequencing. While the math of the delays in MIDI says you can't tell
>whether they're there or not, if you listen to, say, an 808 playing a
>drum loop, or some sort of analog CV/gate sequencer and compare it to
>some MIDI device playing the same thing, you will be able to tell the
>difference. Analog sequencing and the older drum machines have a much
>different feel than does MIDI, and I wasn't aware of this until I
>listened to quite a bit of older electronic music (Kraftwerk, old
I agree about the different feel, but I think in 95% of the cases MIDI
is not the fault. Modern electronic instruments are. Two things
aggrivate this: Firstly, back in the days of, say, the Prophet-5, the synth's
CPU did one thing, basically: key assignment (ok, so it scanned the front
panel, and controlled the voice boards...still not a lot of work). Today,
it has to generate LFO waveforms for 32 voices, and possibly some EG stuff
as well, together with other calculations. Secondly, todays synths are
much more effectively produced. If they can save a $ or two by using slower
chips and a slower CPU they will, down to the limit of what's acceptable
(to the manufacturer).
A test that Keyboard magazine ran a few years ago, showed that the
delays incurred by MIDI (1ms per note at worst, 640us at best) were small
compared to the delays incurred by the instruments.
I'd say that MIDI can be pretty snappy, but it requires snappy instruments
and well-written sequencers. Anyone in the chain slows down and performance
drops. (Before anyone starts flaming, MIDI THRU does _not_ add any delay
to the signal, unless it's a 'SOFT THRU' as found on some machines).
>tried to do songs similar to the old Kraftwerk tracks, I couldn't get
>the songs to feel the same... and that's so because I was using a MIDI
>sequencer and sampled drum sounds.
Probably the fault of the sampler and sequencer, IMHO.
>You must admit, however that the interaction of humans in a musical
>setting cannot be treated the same way as electronic equipment. No one
>will disagree (at least I hope no one will!) with you that any sampler
>or synthesizer can replicate exactly the performance or style of a human
>musician using an acoustic instrument. The difference here is that
>musicians are playing the instruments, not machines.
Yes! A random delay induced by electronics has no bearing musically
to the delays induced by musicians.
/Ricard
--
Ricard Wolf / | \ / | /- email: ric...@axis.se
Axis Communications AB /__| \/ | \__ uucp: axisab.se!ricard
S-223 70 LUND / | /\ | \ Tel: +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN / | / \ | \__/ Fax: +46 46 13 61 30
Scott Amspoker
>In article <25...@gacki.sax.de>
>ga...@gacki.sax.de (Malte Rogacki) writes:
>
>> The timing problems of MIDI are
>> not inherent in the MIDI standard but the instrument design itself.
>
>Question: Please explain how I can make all the MIDI instruments in my
>studio play a note (sent on different MIDI channels w/ different
>velocities) AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.
Use a different MIDI port for each instrument. MIDI bytes can be
dispatched to each port with minimal delay between each port (much
less than a millisecond). My MIDI interface has 8 output ports
and I spread my instruments among those ports as much as possible.
I don't mind if 2 or 3 tracks must occasionally share the same MIDI loop
because I don't quantize my sequences and it is unlikely that I will
be so perfect as to have two MIDI events with the same timestamp.
However, I have experienced annoying delays in certain instruments
which can't be blamed on the MIDI spec itself.
Now. Show me a live band where each member will play a note at exactly
the same time (within a millisecond). I've heard some tight bands
before but I doubt anyone gets that tight. In one millisecond,
sound will travel approximately 1 foot. How close do you stand
to the drums?
mr808
Previously, Scott Amspoker (sc...@basis.com) wrote:
>I don't mind if 2 or 3 tracks must occasionally share the same MIDI loop
>because I don't quantize my sequences and it is unlikely that I will
>be so perfect as to have two MIDI events with the same timestamp.
I agree w/ Malte that most of the problems are w/ processing delays
inside multitimbral instruments. You seem to agree that shoveling a
whole song down one MIDI cable is a disaster. I have a hard time
justifying $300-$700 to spend on a multiport MIDI interface, and then
$1000 per sampler for each percussion sound on a track, and then the
time to tweek each sample to provide the subtle variation that
triggering an analog synth provides. Yes, I know this sounds a bit
anal and extreme, but in 8 years of using MIDI I'm just not happy w/
how it feels. I've been triggering my Xpander w/ my 808 lately and
I've been happy w/ that. The next step is to buy or build a bunch of
analogue sequencers.
Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
unquantized. My theory on this is as follows: MIDI processing delays
create just enough inconsistancy that the feel of a track falls between
human and robotic (Eno vs. Kraftwerk). I don't mind using MIDI for
chords because it often helps to have an indefinite beginning for pad
type sounds, but for rhythmic parts, no way.
>Now. Show me a live band where each member will play a note at exactly
>the same time (within a millisecond).
If I wanted to sound like a fucking band, I'd form one. I'm not into
creating a simulacrum of physical reality - I'd rather create a new
virtual one. What I like most about synths is that they don't sound
ANYTHING like an acoustic instrument. Going for a rhythmic feel
unobtainable by musicians goes hand in hand w/ the weird noises. I'm
not out to DIS what you're doing; I'm just into creating a different
kind of music.
PEACE
__ __ ______ ____ ____ ____ ______________________
| \ / | | ) ( ) | /| ( ) Ordained Minister - )
| \ / | |---- -- ---- | / | ---- the Church of Roland -
| \/ | | | ( ) | / | ( ) mr...@teleport.com )
| | | | ---- ---- ---- ---------------------
| Roland SH-101, TB-303, TR-606, TR-727, TR-808, TR-909, JP6, JP8
| Moog MiniMoog, Source, Rogue; Oberheim Xpander; Arp 2600,Chroma
| Sequential Prophet 5, Prophet 600; Yamaha DX-7IIFD; Peavey SP
| Various and sundry analogue and digital effectors and doo-dads.
| Recorded output: TB-404 - bleepy techno & acid trax
| Ether Binge - ambience & classical electronica
|303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303!
Malte Rogacki
>ga...@gacki.sax.de (Malte Rogacki) writes:
>
>> The timing problems of MIDI are
>> not inherent in the MIDI standard but the instrument design itself.
>
>Question: Please explain how I can make all the MIDI instruments in my
>studio play a note (sent on different MIDI channels w/ different
>velocities) AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.
First, I think it is never a good idea to pick a sentence out of context, my
claim was that the problems that might lead to a "sloppy" feel are much more
inherent in the instrument design than in MIDI. And this stays true.
The "resolution" of the human senses is limited. A lot of techniques in art
deal with that (movies, for example). Playing notes EXACTLY AT THE SAME TIME
means pretty much the same as "WITHIN A CERTAIN TIME FRAME". For example: Most
people (including me) hear a guitar chord as a single "chord" and not as an
arpeggio (what it is technically). More about this later.
>Answer: buy a bunch of MIDI retrofitted Chromas and hook them up w/ the
>Chromaface, not MIDI. The TIMESTAMPING function inherent to the
>interface will make sure they play at (essentially) the same time.
Can't comment on this since I don't know enough about the Chromaface.
>Timing is a crucial component of music, and MIDI's serial timing delays
>are well above the threshold of human perception. MIDI's got a BIG
>problem THAT IS INHERENT TO ITS DESIGN. It has to shovel all the data
>down a SLOW serial path. There is NO way to accurately ensure what
>time a note will play. There's no way to ensure when a particular note
>is going to be played, at least on no hardware/software combo I've
>seen. Sure, buying a Studio 4 or MIDI Timepiece or whatever w/
>multiple MIDI outs will mitigate the problem to a certain extent
>(unless you're running into some multitimbral instrument (who isn't
>these days?).
Time to dig out the pocket calculators.
MIDI is indeed serial, with a bandwidth of 31250 bits per second. The
transmission of one bit takes 0.03125 milliseconds (or 31.25 microseconds). A
MIDI word has ten bits (one start-, one stop-bit, eight "real" bits) so a MIDI
word takes 0.3125 milliseconds to transmit. A Note On/Off message consists of
three words so it takes about 1 millisecond to transmit (if we take Running
Status into consideration it's even less; about 0.65 milliseconds for all
following Note On/Off messages). But let's stick with the first figure. It
means that chords can't be sended and received without getting "arpeggiated".
The last note of a four-note chord would be delayed by about four milliseconds
to the first for example.
Now the question: Can the human ear (or more exactly: the human brain) detect
timing differences such small? I say no. I don't have the test gear to make a
real-world test on this but a rule of thumb for hearing resolution seems to be
the following:
0 - 5 milliseconds: not recognizable
5 - 10 milliseconds: recognizable depending on the hearing abilities of the
listener and the acoustic qualities of the sound
(attack transients)
>10 milliseconds: recognizable
And now let's come back to the rest of my original posting.
I did claim that a lot of timing problems (although still small) are generated
by the synthesizers operating systems. I backed this with the fact that the
main loop of the Prophet 5 operating system takes 7 to 8 milliseconds. This is
the time that the Prophet needs (or may need) to detect that a key had been
pressed (or that a MIDI command was received)! Now the software jumps to the
routine which calculates the control voltage for the oscillators. This adds
even more time. This whole part gets bypassed when using CV and Gate.
Compare: 7 milliseconds for calculating a note inside the synth
vs 1 millisecond for transmitting a MIDI command.
So what is causing the bigger part of the delays?
As far as the CV thing and Vince Clark goes: I'm not a MC-4 and MC-8 guru but
I'm pretty sure that it spits it's CVs out in a serial manner (although very
fast).
>When Vince first started talking about this stuff (see his 1990
>Keybored interview), I thought he was full of shit. Educated listening
>and experience w/ CV gear have proven otherwise. Maybe you like your
>music to be SLOP CITY, but I don't. I love that robotic precision (I'm
>not too keen on Vince's happy melodies, though, and Andy's vocals make
>me cringe, but sometimes he comes up w/ a cool sound).
I only have a German translation of the Keyboard 1990 interview, but my version
reads: "It's not a timing that one can actually hear; it's a timing that one
can feel." Interesting.
I like my music the way it is. I learned pretty hard to play synths with my ten
fingers and together with other musicians. As you said, timing is a crucial
component of music. I wholeheartly agree but obviously this means something
completely different to me. I am a living being, not a roboter. It is to me
completely natural when a band gets faster and slower during a piece. I you
want to sound robotic, fine. I accept this. But even with your fine analog gear
with CVs and Gates and DIN sync you are limited. For example:
How do you program a slightly "laid back" feel into a TR 808?
How do you program a 64th "smeared grace note" on a 909?
The whole CV thing has it's own charme but I don't think it is superior to
MIDI.
mr808
ga...@gacki.sax.de (Malte Rogacki) writes:
> The whole CV thing has it's own charme but I don't think it is superior to
> MIDI.
Thank you for a fine post Malte. I don't agree w/ you completely but I
can see your point of view.
Yes, working w/ CV is a bitch and has major problems. My point is that
MIDI is seriously flawed in the way it treats timing information. The
Chromaface (found on the Chroma and Polaris) is one of the many
proprietary interfaces that predate MIDI (DCB, Oberheim System, etc.).
The Chromaface had the wonderful feature of including a TIMESTAMP w/
the note data which indicated when the note was to be played (much like
a SMPTE hit list). That way, each synth's computer could compensate
for it's own internal processing delays and play the note AT THE RIGHT
TIME.
It's been more than ten years since MIDI first appeared, and it's a bit
long in the tooth. The problem is, MIDI seems to be good enough for
the many who buy General MIDI gear to play packaged sequences. I'd
like to get some discussion going on MIDI 2.0. Ideas, anyone?
Jon Drukman
: Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
: yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
: unquantized.
I quantize everything and then use the "shift" parameter to make each
track "really" line up. There are many more delays coming from the
instruments and their slowness than MIDI. Some drum machines, for
instance, seem to have little pauses "built in" to the sound. You've
got to correct for it.
MIDI is fine IF you know what you're doing and the sequencer is smart
enough to help out a little.
Learning about your sequencer's idea of priority and how your
instruments react is crucial for a tight groove.
/jon
Christian Fowler
: mr808 (mr...@teleport.com) wrote:
: : Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
: : yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
: : unquantized.
I love a good base line that is completely quantized AS LONG AS it has
some good dynamics.
: I quantize everything and then use the "shift" parameter to make each
: track "really" line up. There are many more delays coming from the
: instruments and their slowness than MIDI. Some drum machines, for
: instance, seem to have little pauses "built in" to the sound. You've
: got to correct for it.
Or, for example, that damn OBXa.
--
+-+
+-+|+-+ Christian Fowler
+-+|+-+ ma...@acm.vt.edu
+-+
Jon Drukman
: Jon Drukman (wesley@casa) wrote:
: : instruments and their slowness than MIDI. Some drum machines, for
: : instance, seem to have little pauses "built in" to the sound. You've
: : got to correct for it.
: Or, for example, that damn OBXa.
I've heard that there is another MIDI retrofit (notthe JL Cooper one)
that doesn't have the egregious delay problem. I haven't personally
verified this though.
/jon
Ross Clement
>Jon Drukman (wesley@casa) wrote:
>: mr808 (mr...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: : Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
>: : yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
>: : unquantized.
>
>I love a good base line that is completely quantized AS LONG AS it has
>some good dynamics.
Ryuichi Sakamoto (ex-YMO) has said that he likes the sound of quantised/step
time entered music. That he likes that robotic precision.
Cheers,
Ross-c
mr808
cle...@westminster.ac.uk (Ross Clement) writes:
> Ryuichi Sakamoto (ex-YMO) has said that he likes the sound of quantised/step
> time entered music. That he likes that robotic precision.
>
What's really whack about old YMO is the contrast between the analogue
sequencers' precision & the lunatic sloppy drumming.
PEACE
*)*
808
Chris Bradley
: Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
Yes, provided that you have the CPU power behind to drive the note sequences
fast enough. I'm running a 486/66 with dual MIDI boards (each one cost $120
LIST - you can get dual port MIDI interfaces for $149), and a 100% quantized
drum sequence hits right on. It can react faster than a real drummer can - on
the order of a thousanth of a second. No human is that accurate. All of the
people I have ever dealt with that have trouble with quantized MIDI data is
either their CPU is slow at delivering it or their drum machines don't react
fast enough. My 486/66 and my Alesis D4 sound ultra-harmonious. And yes, I have
CV based gear as well, and like the MIDI stuff much better.
: yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
: unquantized. My theory on this is as follows: MIDI processing delays
: create just enough inconsistancy that the feel of a track falls between
: human and robotic (Eno vs. Kraftwerk). I don't mind using MIDI for
Again, see paragraph above.
: >Now. Show me a live band where each member will play a note at exactly
: >the same time (within a millisecond).
: If I wanted to sound like a fucking band, I'd form one. I'm not into
: creating a simulacrum of physical reality - I'd rather create a new
: virtual one. What I like most about synths is that they don't sound
: ANYTHING like an acoustic instrument. Going for a rhythmic feel
1ms Is imperceptable to the human ear. Anything beyond that is dragging
equipment or "analog arrogance".
: unobtainable by musicians goes hand in hand w/ the weird noises. I'm
: not out to DIS what you're doing; I'm just into creating a different
: kind of music.
Me too.... I use the best of both worlds.
: | Roland SH-101, TB-303, TR-606, TR-727, TR-808, TR-909, JP6, JP8
Cool gear - I've got a 707, an 808, a 909, a JP6, a TB-303 and a Juno-106.
Along side my Enosniq SQ2+, Vintage Keys+, Alesis D4 and various other
digital goodies. Got an ARP on order as well - got to have that modularity.
I like the P5 and 600 you've got down below. Personally, I can't stand any
Yamaha gear. It all hurts my ears. Kinda like a Korg M1 with the midrange
cranked.
-->Chris
Chris Bradley | "Music is the ultimate mood shifter. It can make you
chr...@beacon.dev.com | laugh, cry, or change the station. Either way, without
Scott Amspoker
>mr808 (mr...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good? I've
>: yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to recording
>: unquantized.
>
>I quantize everything and then use the "shift" parameter to make each
>track "really" line up. There are many more delays coming from the
>instruments and their slowness than MIDI. Some drum machines, for
>instance, seem to have little pauses "built in" to the sound. You've
>got to correct for it.
I find myself more and more recording on a sequencer without even
a click track (treating the sequencer as a glorified tape recorder).
I still use a click track most of the time. Any acoustical
keyboard instrument (piano, organ) will have some mechanical
delay. A keyboardist will sub-consciously compensate for it during
performance. (Except for one time I played a chuch organ for my
sister's wedding and experienced major delays from the speakers
at the back of the large church. I had to block out the sound
in my head as it didn't seem to have any relationship to the
keys I was pressing. Very annoying.)
I prefer synths to be as tight as possible but least be they should
be consistant in their delays (which is often not the case).
mr808
ro...@beacon.dev.com (Chris Bradley) writes:
>It can react faster than a real drummer can - on
> the order of a thousanth of a second. No human is that accurate.
As I said, "human feel" is not what I'm after.
> All of the
> people I have ever dealt with that have trouble with quantized MIDI data is
> either their CPU is slow at delivering it or their drum machines don't react
> fast enough. My 486/66 and my Alesis D4 sound ultra-harmonious. And yes, I have
> CV based gear as well, and like the MIDI stuff much better.
This whole argument comes down to taste - human VS robotic, easy to use
but sloppy MIDI vs unwieldy but precise CV/GATE.
Modern computer based sequencers w/ multiple MIDI outs go a long way to
correct MIDI's timing problems, but the limitations are still there.
You can only send bits down a serial interface SO fast. Try playing 10
notes at the same time and you're going to get a flam.
> 1ms Is imperceptable to the human ear. Anything beyond that is dragging
> equipment or "analog arrogance".
>
But 7.5ms to 10ms isn't, and that's the situation described above. I'm
about ready to hook up an oscilloscope to my sampler & 808 to get some
real world numbers, but that's just intellectual games. Can anyone
give us the name of one of Erasure's MIDI albums (pre 90) and one of
the CV ones? I listened to them back in '90 and couldn't stomach the
music (sorry all you Vince fans).
The Quadrasynth is what, 64 voice polyphonic? That's the trend w/
modern synths - more polyphony. At some point the manufacturers are
going to realize that MIDI 1.0 ain't cuttin' it. Look, the new
SoundCanvas has 2 MIDI ins. How much farther can it go?
PEACE
Jasper de Jong
CF> : : Does anyone think a completely quantized MIDI track sounds good?
CF> I've
CF> : : yet to find someone who does. Everyone I know has shifted to
CF> recording
CF> : : unquantized.
Unquantized?
For techno etc. too?
I can't imagine!
CU!
... Aphex Twin - Selected Ambient Works vol. II
Ross Clement
Strange. The drum instructor at my Japanese music school mentioned
Yukihiro Takahashi as being particularly "umai" (skillful).
But, there is that bootleg where Y.T. lost the click track and couldn't
hear himself playing and started going off, and then R.S. started making
hugely gross mistakes (during "One Thousand Knives").
Cheers,
Ross-c
Nick Rothwell
>reads: "It's not a timing that one can actually hear; it's a timing that one
>can feel." Interesting.
I put a scope on a MIDI processor once. Delay of 7msec. It caused the keyboard
to feel wrong - sluggish. The delay was inaudible, but certainly detectable.
--
Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance ni...@cassiel.com
NOW WASH YOUR HANDS PLEASE
Tom Dolan
sc...@bbx.basis.com "Scott Amspoker" writes:
> ... Any acoustical
> keyboard instrument (piano, organ) will have some mechanical
> delay. A keyboardist will sub-consciously compensate for it during
> performance. (Except for one time I played a chuch organ for my
> sister's wedding and experienced major delays from the speakers
> at the back of the large church. I had to block out the sound
> in my head as it didn't seem to have any relationship to the
> keys I was pressing. Very annoying.)
A fun one: my school had a real pipe organ, which I was allowed to play
*very* occasionally (Until they worked out the sort of stuff
I was playing - rearranged - on it). The pipes on this were
in different places in the chapel, so you got different
delays for different manuals etc. The bass stuff was all
underneath the rood screen the organ sat on, so that was
_only_ available reflected off the walls. I think the real
earth-shaker stuff may actually have been in a different
room.
But when you played it, you didn't care! (When I make that
album, I'm going to crowbar a church organ into it somewhere
and go back)
Tomsk (Hoping he can remember 8 years ago accurately)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Tom Dolan * "Here's a tip for imps, you know, small people. Try *
* furthermore known as * disguising your height by pretending you're just a *
* t...@tomd.demon.co.uk * very long way away" Harry Hill *
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The opinions expressed above are my own, and please dont tell my employers!*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------