"English Tablature"?
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
I've seen the claim in this newsgroup that "the English concertina
is so logically laid out that normal sheet music _is_ tablature
for this instrument." I don't think I've seen anyone explain this,
though... and as someone who has never played English, I wonder if
there's less to it than meets the eye. Please don't take this as
a challenge; I just want to understand what's meant by the phrase...
Like a piano, the English has only one way of playing any individual
note, so you don't have any choices to make (assuming the score
"works" on the instrument at all) except details of fingering.
So you don't have to deal with one of the issues of tablature
for other instruments (including Anglo), that being the choice
of one of the alternative ways to play a given note. But on the
other hand, standard notation does not offer any suggestions
about preferred fingering -- is the fingering of an English
really that reliably consistant, or is this a point where tablature
(even if it's just finger-numbers next to the notes) would
occasionally sneak in? (For an example of the latter, there's
the recent discusion of how to play a triplet upon a single note...)
You also don't have the diatonic bellows-reversal effect, nor as
serious a problem if you run out of bellows, so you aren't as
likely to want to notate reminders of how to deal with this --
though in fact if you want to use the bellows to add a bit of
"bounce", you _may_ want to write this down. I suppose one could
notate this simply as an accent...?
Is there anything else going on here that supports the statement,
such as "spaces on one hand, lines on the other"? Or does it
really mean only and exactly "one note per key"? If the latter,
it's really not that profound a statement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman ("Keshlam"), http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam
New URL for Walkabout Clearwater Coffeehouse and Chorus:
http://www.lovesong.com/walkabout
Ian Roberts
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam wrote:
> I've seen the claim in this newsgroup that "the English concertina
> is so logically laid out that normal sheet music _is_ tablature
> for this instrument." I don't think I've seen anyone explain this,
> though... and as someone who has never played English, I wonder if
> there's less to it than meets the eye. Please don't take this as
> a challenge; I just want to understand what's meant by the phrase...
[snip]
> Is there anything else going on here that supports the statement,
> such as "spaces on one hand, lines on the other"?
Precisely. On an english, the notes on the left hand are all on the lines,
and the notes on the right are all in the spaces on the stave. Also the
sharps and flats for a given key are almost always (well, as long as
you're playing in a 'usual' key like G, D or A) adjacent to the natural
notes, so the pattern of a scale is very similar whatever key you are in.
Ian
--
Ian Roberts | ICQ# 7810412
i...@parody.demon.co.uk |
ian.r...@merton.oxford.ac.uk |
Richard Morse
Ian Roberts wrote:
>
> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam wrote:
>
> > I've seen the claim in this newsgroup that "the English concertina
> > is so logically laid out that normal sheet music _is_ tablature
> > for this instrument." I don't think I've seen anyone explain this,
> > though... and as someone who has never played English, I wonder if
> > there's less to it than meets the eye. Please don't take this as
> > a challenge; I just want to understand what's meant by the phrase...
>
> [snip]
>
> > Is there anything else going on here that supports the statement,
> > such as "spaces on one hand, lines on the other"?
>
> Precisely. On an english, the notes on the left hand are all on the lines,
> and the notes on the right are all in the spaces on the stave. Also the
> sharps and flats for a given key are almost always (well, as long as
> you're playing in a 'usual' key like G, D or A) adjacent to the natural
> notes, so the pattern of a scale is very similar whatever key you are in.
It is also interesting to note that the Hayden duet system is also "so
logically laid out that normal sheet music _is_ tablature". If one were
to superimpose staves upon either side of the instrument, all the keys
would fall where those notes appear on the staves (the g,b,d... on the
lines and a,c,e... in the spaces). Of course the main difference is that
all the notes of any scale in any key are available on one side without
having to go back and forth between sides, and the pattern of any scale
is identical in all keys (within the scope of the instrument).
This is not unique to the Hayden, however.... I think that the B and C
chromatic accordion systems also have the same propensities. Does the
Uniform system share them too?
-- Rich --
THE BUTTON BOX
http://www.buttonbox.com
Eric Root
I won't bop the thread back to the specifics of English button layout
since we're already talking about other very logical keyboard layouts.
However, on the nature of tablatures: it is not inherent in the
nature and purpose of tablature to indicate fingering, unless the
material is for teaching only, or unless something particularly tricky
and counter-intuitive is about to happen in the music (This is true of
standard notation also). Standard notation indicates desired output;
tablature indicates desired input (how to operate this particular gizmo
in the context of this particular tune).
Whichever way of reading music you use, if you are playing music
that encourages ornamentation on the fly, you will be varying your
fingering all the time anyway. Fingering that is efficient for playing
the tune straight will probably be a ball and chain for whatever
ornamentation or variation you are trying at the moment.
-Eric Root
-Metal-ended concertina - instrument which will fit under the seat of a
plane.
-Metal-bodied guitar - instrument which won't.
DoN. Nichols
In article <3575A458...@us.ibm.com>,
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam <kes...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>I've seen the claim in this newsgroup that "the English concertina
>is so logically laid out that normal sheet music _is_ tablature
>for this instrument." I don't think I've seen anyone explain this,
>though... and as someone who has never played English, I wonder if
>there's less to it than meets the eye. Please don't take this as
>a challenge; I just want to understand what's meant by the phrase...
[ ... ]
>Is there anything else going on here that supports the statement,
>such as "spaces on one hand, lines on the other"? Or does it
>really mean only and exactly "one note per key"? If the latter,
>it's really not that profound a statement.
The fact that the left hand is all lines, and the right hand is all
spaces is part of it, but only part. I think that I will attempt to do some
ASCII art of part of the keyboard. (I'll be leaving out the *many* ledger
lines above the staff, and drawing only the treble (the tenor, baritone, and
bass go well below that.)
Also, in another followup was mentioned that the accidentals are
adjacent to the notes of which they are sharps or flats. Since there is
room for only one, a choice had to be made, and the choices made are good in
key signatures up through five sharps, and down through three flats. There
are two notes which are present under *both* names. D#/Eb and G#/Ab.
Imagine the fingers pointing *up* in the drawing below. (They will
be closer to horizontal when you are playing, unless you are lying down. :-)
L E F T | R I G H T
|
|
| ( Bb) ( B )
-( A )- -( Ab )- | ----- -----
| ( G ) ( G# )
----( F#)---( F )------------------ | ---------------------------------
| ( Eb) ( E )
--------------------( D )---( D# )- | ---------------------------------
| ( C ) ( C# )
----( Bb)---( B )------------------ | ---------------------------------
| ( Ab) ( A )
--------------------( G )---( G# )- | ---------------------------------
| ( F ) ( F#)
----( Eb)---( E )------------------ |----------------------------------
| ( D#) ( D )
-( C )- -( C# )- | ----- ----- ----- -----
| ( B ) ( Bb)
-( Ab)- -( A )- | ----- -----
| ( G#) ( G )
The thumbs will be adjacent to the vertical line separating the
hands in this drawing.
I've put in the first three notes above the staff, and you can see that the
next note pair on the left hand is C# and C. The standard treble goes on up
for another octave from that, so it ends on the right hand with a C 3
octaves above middle C (which is that first left-hand ledger line).
So -- as you can see, the first glance at the note on the page tells
you which hand (left for lines, right for spaces), and gives you a graphical
location for the button. The only remaining part is the key signature.
When learning -- especially if it is a key signature which I haven't used
before, I will go through and circle in red (on a photocopy of the music)
the notes which need to be sharped or flatted. This helps deal with the
fact that the signature only marks the upper occurance of the note on the
staff, and *I'm* more often playing below that area.
Now that you have this relatively easy roadmap (not really what I
would call tablature, but very close, since sir Charles Wheatstone made the
design of the buttons fall so neatly on the staff), and once you have
learned a tune in whatever key it is written, it is easy to transpose it in
fifths by simply moving up or down one pattern of buttons. At that point,
one note (perhaps in two places, if you are spanning more than an octave),
will sound wrong, and all you have to do is move that finger from the inner
row to the outer, or vice versa (depending on where it was already).
Once you go beyond five sharps, or three flats, you will have to
hunt the note under its alternate name, and you will find that it is on the
other hand at this point. Still -- it is not at all bad for developing
sight reading. If I learned more tunes in a year, I could probably get to
the point where I could do it at reasonable speed direct from the page.
However, I like to keep playing something which I have recently learned,
until it adapts itself to whatever my subconcious expects of it. :-)
So -- it is now up to you -- will *you* call standard written music
"Tablature for the English", or not? It is close enough to make no real
difference in my mind.
Oh yes -- fingering! Normally, the index finger takes the two rows
closest to the thumb, the middle finger takes the next row down (out?), and
the ring finger takes the row closest to the pinky (which normally lives in
a rest bracket beside the keys. At need, it can be called into use, but it
normally stays in place, steadying the instrument.
There will be cases in which a deviation from this pattern is
desirable. You'll know you've found one when you have to lift a finger and
press it down immediately on the next note. Then, it is a case of develop a
pattern which does not interfere with the next notes until you can fall back
to normal patterns. In one case, I find that I play a note with the left
middle finger, then use the index finger to play the note above it in the
same row, and then play the next one (in the row normally handled by the
middle finger) with the ring finger. After that sequence, things fall back
into normal fingering until the next time through the tune.
Note that this is more often the case when there are two notes in
succession going from the lower to the upper in the same row. If the other
direction is called for, I usually simply slide the finger down to the next
button, letting the other pop up as the finger slides off it. (But all of
this is something done by individuals to generate their own style. You do
what feels right to you.) I might use more variant fingering if I were in
the habit of playing fast triplets, but since I favor a legato style, I
don't find myself in that position.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
NOTE: spamblocking on against servers which harbor spammers.
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Donald Nichols (DoN.)|Voice (703) 938-4564
My Concertina web page: | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
Eric Root wrote:
> However, on the nature of tablatures: it is not inherent in the
May be a matter of point of view. My impression of guitar tab is that
its great advantage is that it does indicate fingering -- not only
which chord is being played, but _how_ to play that chord. I've seen
a guitarist take a look at a tune I've written, say "You want me to
play _what_?", look up the tab for that chord, and immediately say
"Oh, I see."
Maybe this is a major exception. But it's the kind of thing that
only a tablature system -- a notation specific to the instrument
-- can do, and arguably something it should do.
And if one accepts that argument, it's why I think the statement
in the subject line may be overstating the case just a bit.
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
Thanks for the illustration, DoN. I'd looked at the diagrams on
various folks' web pages, but it hadn't really sunk in before.
Good info; you might want to fold this back into your web page
if it isn't already there.
DoN. Nichols wrote:
>There are two notes which are present under *both* names. D#/Eb and G#/Ab.
Hm. That would offer the interesting possibility of actually tuning
those reeds differently, if one wanted to move more toward just
intonation... Has anyone tried that?
Someone ought to make a bumper sticker that says "Free The Reeds!"
JHB NIJHOF
> Thanks for the illustration, DoN. I'd looked at the diagrams on
> various folks' web pages, but it hadn't really sunk in before.
> Good info; you might want to fold this back into your web page
> if it isn't already there.
>
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
> >There are two notes which are present under *both* names. D#/Eb and G#/Ab.
>
> Hm. That would offer the interesting possibility of actually tuning
> those reeds differently, if one wanted to move more toward just
> intonation... Has anyone tried that?
Yes, Charles Wheatstone! He tuned D# and Eb differently, although
apparently, he got them the wrong way around.
--
Jeroen Nijhof J.H.B....@aston.ac.uk
Accordion Links http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~nijhojhb/accordions.html
JHB NIJHOF
> Eric Root wrote:
> > However, on the nature of tablatures: it is not inherent in the
> > nature and purpose of tablature to indicate fingering <...>
>
> May be a matter of point of view. My impression of guitar tab is that
> its great advantage is that it does indicate fingering -- not only
> which chord is being played, but _how_ to play that chord. I've seen
> a guitarist take a look at a tune I've written, say "You want me to
> play _what_?", look up the tab for that chord, and immediately say
> "Oh, I see."
What you describe there are chord symbols, not tablature.
What is commonly meant with guitar tablature is a notation that describes
which fret to press on which
string, from http://www.olga.net/index2.html#crdtab :
Tablature (*.tab) Files
Tab (short for tablature), is a notation for stringed instruments,
with (in the case of guitar music) six lines (representing the guitar
strings) and numbers (representing fret positions). Take at look at
this: it's the beginning of 'Happy birthday'...
D7
e|--------------------------|-----------------3-------|--2-- ...
B|------------------3-----3-|-5-------3---------------|--1-- ...
G|--------------------------|-------------------------|--2-- ...
D|--------------------------|-------------------------|--0-- ...
A|--------------------------|-------------------------|--0-- ...
E|--------------------------|-------------------------|----- ...
1 . 2 . 3 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 1 ...
Ha - ppy Birth - day to You. ...
> its great advantage is that it does indicate fingering -- not only
> which chord is being played, but _how_ to play that chord. I've seen
> a guitarist take a look at a tune I've written, say "You want me to
> play _what_?", look up the tab for that chord, and immediately say
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So it does not describe what to play, if you have to look up the tab
for that chord! In that way it is similar for the notation in letters
for (piano) accordion basses: it tells you which button to press,
and you ought to know which finger to use.
Besides, more often than not, that kind of chord tab only has dots
to indicate the fret, not finger numbers.
> Maybe this is a major exception. But it's the kind of thing that
> only a tablature system -- a notation specific to the instrument
> -- can do, and arguably something it should do.
You don't need tablature to indicate fingering! normal 5 line staff
notation with numbers indicating the finger to use _where necessary_
suffices.
It would be possible to notate which finger to use for each note,
but that is overkill, and would not make the score easier to read:
a lot of the extra information would be redundant (only restating
the obvious), which would make it difficult to spot where
the indicated fingering is different from normal, and hence useful.
DoN. Nichols
In article <357697C8...@us.ibm.com>,
>various folks' web pages, but it hadn't really sunk in before.
>Good info; you might want to fold this back into your web page
>if it isn't already there.
>
>DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
>those reeds differently, if one wanted to move more toward just
>intonation... Has anyone tried that?
That is *exactly* what was done by default on the old brass-reeded
"learner" instruments. In particular the D#/Eb pair were *very* far out
from each other -- about 7.5 cents either side of the chromatic note which
substitutes for both of them. Played *together* they sound *terrible*. :-)
Enjoy,
Eric Root
DoN, what do you mean the D# and Eb sounded terrible together on the
old-tuned concertinas? Think of it as a golden opportunity to sound
_wet_!
DoN. Nichols
In article <357697C8...@us.ibm.com>,
>various folks' web pages, but it hadn't really sunk in before.
>Good info; you might want to fold this back into your web page
>if it isn't already there.
Good suggestion! I've now added it, including the quoted part of
your question which precipitated it. (I hope that you don't mind. If you
do, I'll remove that part.)
I'm both posting this and sending a CC directly to you. (My
newsfeed has just changed, and I'm not sure how much to trust that this will
get out properly. :-)
DoN. Nichols
In article <6l78v7$rk1$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Eric Root <er...@webtv.net> wrote:
>DoN, what do you mean the D# and Eb sounded terrible together on the
>old-tuned concertinas? Think of it as a golden opportunity to sound
>_wet_!
Wet enough to perhaps need a scuba rig to survive it. :-)
Joe Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
In <6l7l9e$6...@izalco.d-and-d.com>, dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) writes:
> Good suggestion! I've now added it, including the quoted part of
>your question which precipitated it. (I hope that you don't mind. If you
>do, I'll remove that part.)
No problem. I'll take credit for a good question... <grin!>
> I'm both posting this and sending a CC directly to you. (My
>newsfeed has just changed, and I'm not sure how much to trust that this will
>get out properly. :-)
FWIW: In general, I would prefer that folks _not_ CC me. It's much easier for
me if I can keep the newsgroup traffic and personal traffic separated --
among other things, there's less risk of e-mailing a response and only then
discovering that I should have posted it. Thanks, all...
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
New URL for Walkabout Clearwater Coffeehouse and Chorus: