"long" russian reed plates
Orest Lechnowsky
Thinking about russian long reed plates - in addition to the
differences in sound (many say better), wouldn't the long plates be
lighter and take less space as a system than individual plates?
Couldn't the reed tongues be closer together? Wouldn't that result in
less overall size and weight for the accordion outfitted with long
plates?
How are long plates attached to the reed blocks? Is it waxed or
mechanically attached? How is air-tightness maintained between the
adjacent chambers in the reed block? With individual reed plates
there is wood and wax between each reed plate. With long reeds, I
could see wood dividers, but there is no where to seal it with wax
unless its done from inside the reed block, which seems impractical.
Orest
Theodore Kloba
instrument I own has individual plates, but for Bandonions, Chemnitzers
and kin:
The plates can be lighter and more compact: Often they're somewhat
heavier though. If they're made of zinc (as in older instruments), the
density outweighs the compaction. In American-made chemnitzers, the
plates are often thicker than their individual-plate counterparts, again
counteracting any weight saved by compaction.
Even in the cases where the reedplates are heavier, the overall
instrument weight is usually lighter anyway, because the reedblocks are
so much lighter: the dividers between cells are far thinner than on
blocks made for individual reeds.
Typically they're attached with L-shaped screws and airtightness is
maintained with leather gaskets. This was often a failure point in
older instruments
--
Theodore M. Kloba * hey...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/
http://www.mp3.com/boxman/
Theodore Kloba
Theodore Kloba wrote:
> Typically they're attached with L-shaped screws and airtightness is
> maintained with leather gaskets. This was often a failure point in
> older instruments
and leaks between cells would occur.
Here is a quickie website with comparison photos:
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/reeds/
stevesaccordionshop
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, "Orest Lechnowsky" <orest@j...>
wrote:
You answered your own question in the last paragraph about the length
of the plate. It's the chamber size for both in/out reed tongues that
determines the plate length.
The idea of compression (seals)under the plate is an old one and used
by the italians on their provinos whereas the master set of reeds (on
one plate) was secured by means of leather seals.
Steve Navoyosky
Orest Lechnowsky
Thanks Steve, but without the need for wax between the chambers, and
the use of compression seals, the long reedplates could indeed be
shorter than the total sum length of individual plates, right?
stevesaccordionshop
and
> the use of compression seals, the long reedplates could indeed be
> shorter than the total sum length of individual plates, right?
>
> Orest
Not sure to what you speak, Orest. There is a need for the divided
chambers and the sealing between the chamber wall edge and plate.
Otherwise, all reeds would sound.
There's not that much more/less room between inside/outside reed
tongues on a plate than on individual plates.
Perhaps I'm not grasping your thoughts?
Steve Navoyosky
Theodore Kloba
> Thanks Steve, but without the need for wax between the chambers, and
> the use of compression seals, the long reedplates could indeed be
> shorter than the total sum length of individual plates, right?
Could be, yes. It's definitely the case on chemnitzers. Long-plate
instruments often have straight key levers because the reed spacing
matches the button spacing. On individual-plate instruments, the key
levers need to be bent so that the wider spacing can be accomodated
without stretching the scale of the keyboard.
On the bayan reed photo I linked to in my previous post, you'll notice
that the dividers between cells on some of the blocks are quite wide, so
those plates are still long.
Orest Lechnowsky
I know there is a need for dividers, but it seems like the thickness
of the dividers could be less for long reedplates because you don't
need that 1/4" to 5/32" (just guessing at those dimensions) surface on
the divider to hold the wax. You could maybe get away with a 1/16"
divider. If you were able to save 3/16" per reed, on a twenty reed
set you'd shorten your reed blocks by 3-3/4", which means the whole
instrument could be smaller.
Is that any clearer?
Orest
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, "stevesaccordionshop" <snav88@a...>
wrote:
stevesaccordionshop
thickness
> of the dividers could be less for long reedplates because you don't
> need that 1/4" to 5/32" (just guessing at those dimensions) surface
on
> the divider to hold the wax. You could maybe get away with a 1/16"
> divider. If you were able to save 3/16" per reed, on a twenty reed
> set you'd shorten your reed blocks by 3-3/4", which means the whole
> instrument could be smaller.
>
> Is that any clearer?
>
> Orest
I read you. Yes, that would be possible. Wax wouldn't be desirable as
much as leather though. Placing leather on the baffles securely would
acheive accurate results to not interfere with the skins in
particular. One could place the plate knowing all would work.
Making the instrument smaller is fine as long as the
keyboard/buttonboard is not affected. The body holding the reeds now
is smaller per your suggestion, but the treble and bass lengths are
the same? That's happened with keyboard accordions of the
past....keyboards longer and out of proportion to the shell.
And then, there's the possibility of adding more reeds per line by
making thinner baffles. All good thoughts, but what factory wants to
change their dies/jigs/tools.....once more. Italy for instance, took
a stance years ago to standardize models, and eliminate special
orders. The latter slowed production.
But you are correct. It could be done as long as you had access to
1/16" thick wood, preferably three-ply for strength and warpage. Good
luck as I've tried that avenue without success. Email me when you
find a source.
Steve Navoyosky
Theodore Kloba
> But you are correct. It could be done as long as you had access to
> 1/16" thick wood, preferably three-ply for strength and warpage. Good
> luck as I've tried that avenue without success. Email me when you
> find a source.
The dividers in chemnitzers and bandonions are usually about 1/16"
thick. On the treble blocks of many German-made instruments, the blocks
are actually milled from one piece of wood. Of course, the warping you
mentioned is related to the leaks I mentioned in the previous post.
Orest Lechnowsky
> Making the instrument smaller is fine as long as the
> keyboard/buttonboard is not affected. The body holding the reeds now
> is smaller per your suggestion, but the treble and bass lengths are
> the same? That's happened with keyboard accordions of the
> past....keyboards longer and out of proportion to the shell.
Yeah, I've seen those and agree that it's not a great situation. But,
on the flip side, there are "ladies" or "student" sized keyboards
which because of the smaller scale could benefit from a smaller shell.
And then there are diatonics and CBAs which quite often have a much
shorter keyboard than body.
> And then, there's the possibility of adding more reeds per line by
> making thinner baffles. All good thoughts, but what factory wants to
> change their dies/jigs/tools.....once more. Italy for instance, took
> a stance years ago to standardize models, and eliminate special
> orders. The latter slowed production.
Agreed, it would almost have to be a custom order.
> But you are correct. It could be done as long as you had access to
> 1/16" thick wood, preferably three-ply for strength and warpage.
Good
> luck as I've tried that avenue without success. Email me when you
> find a source.
Would it have to be wood? I have no idea about how it would affect
the sound but some other materials that come to mind are aluminum,
fiberglass, carbon fiber, or vulcanized fiberboard like forbon, which
is a stiff paper based product which come in 1/16" thickness.
Anyway, all of this is just curiosity more than anything else. I have
no plans to do anything with it, just wondering whether I was thinking
about it the right way.
Orest
DoN. Nichols
Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Orest Lechnowsky wrote:
>> Thanks Steve, but without the need for wax between the chambers, and
>> the use of compression seals, the long reedplates could indeed be
>> shorter than the total sum length of individual plates, right?
>
>Could be, yes. It's definitely the case on chemnitzers. Long-plate
>instruments often have straight key levers because the reed spacing
>matches the button spacing. On individual-plate instruments, the key
>levers need to be bent so that the wider spacing can be accomodated
>without stretching the scale of the keyboard.
Hmm ... I've got an Arno Arnold Chemnitzer with individual
plates, but with straight (wooden) levers. However, the reed plates are
not waxed in place, but instead held by the afore-mentioned "L"-shaped
screws -- at the two ends of each plate, not the sides.
>On the bayan reed photo I linked to in my previous post, you'll notice
>that the dividers between cells on some of the blocks are quite wide, so
>those plates are still long.
Perhaps the position of the reed chambers was to accommodate
a set of levers designed for the waxed reed plates, so they had to
stretch it out?
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Theodore Kloba
> Hmm ... I've got an Arno Arnold Chemnitzer with individual
> plates, but with straight (wooden) levers. However, the reed plates are
> not waxed in place, but instead held by the afore-mentioned "L"-shaped
> screws -- at the two ends of each plate, not the sides.
Of course those are pre-WWII German-made reeds. When the American
builders started using waxed-in individual-plate reeds, they were buying
reeds from the Italian makers who had already settled on [wider]
standardized dimensions.
>>On the bayan reed photo I linked to in my previous post, you'll notice
>>that the dividers between cells on some of the blocks are quite wide, so
>>those plates are still long.
> Perhaps the position of the reed chambers was to accommodate
> a set of levers designed for the waxed reed plates, so they had to
> stretch it out?
I think you're quite right-- Notice that the wider-spaced reeds are
occurring in groups of twelve, which tells me they're part of a
stradella bass assembly. The closer-spaced ones are probably treble sets.
Theodore Kloba
Theodore Kloba wrote:
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>> Hmm ... I've got an Arno Arnold Chemnitzer with individual
>> plates, but with straight (wooden) levers. However, the reed plates are
>> not waxed in place, but instead held by the afore-mentioned "L"-shaped
>> screws -- at the two ends of each plate, not the sides.
>
> Of course those are pre-WWII German-made reeds. When the American
> builders started using waxed-in individual-plate reeds, they were buying
> reeds from the Italian makers who had already settled on [wider]
> standardized dimensions.
Another thing just occurred to me: On your Arno Arnold, the reedplates
probably abut closely on the block, whereas waxing in the reeds requires
a bit of space between plates for the wax, which also adds to spacing
between cells.
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
I found the pictures very interesting!
Do You have this from a Russian Web site?
Can You post the web address?
Is there more Information on this reed plates?
Is the Information in English or can You reed russin?
Johann
>Theodore Kloba wrote:
>> Typically they're attached with L-shaped screws and airtightness is
>> maintained with leather gaskets. This was often a failure point in
>> older instruments
>and leaks between cells would occur.
>Here is a quickie website with comparison photos:
>http://www.geocities.com/heytud/reeds/
Comparison of Long-Plate Reeds and Reedblocks
Russian bayan long-plate reeds and blocks (photo courtesy Yuri Alferov,
Lantan, Ltd.):
Theodore Kloba
> Do You have this from a Russian Web site?
> Can You post the web address?
It was emailed to me by a Russian reed manufacturer. I contacted them
to inquire about the possibility of manufacturing reeds for Chemnitzer
concertinas and bandonions, since they are similar to bayan reeds. It
ended up not working out.
> Is there more Information on this reed plates?
Not on the web.
> Is the Information in English or can You reed russin?
The individual who sent the photo spoke some english, but I have some
knowledge of Russian.
DoN. Nichols
Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Theodore Kloba wrote:
>> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>>> Hmm ... I've got an Arno Arnold Chemnitzer with individual
>>> plates, but with straight (wooden) levers. However, the reed plates are
>>> not waxed in place, but instead held by the afore-mentioned "L"-shaped
>>> screws -- at the two ends of each plate, not the sides.
>>
>> Of course those are pre-WWII German-made reeds. When the American
>> builders started using waxed-in individual-plate reeds, they were buying
>> reeds from the Italian makers who had already settled on [wider]
>> standardized dimensions.
>
>Another thing just occurred to me: On your Arno Arnold, the reedplates
>probably abut closely on the block, whereas waxing in the reeds requires
>a bit of space between plates for the wax, which also adds to spacing
>between cells.
Exactly -- that is why I was careful to specify that the 'L'
screws were on the ends of the reed plates, not on the sides.
As it turns out -- I just met my first long-plate Bandoneon
today. It turns out that someone only one town over has one and was
experiencing a problem which I was able to help with (gargling sounds
from curved leathers). There is a lot which I can't do for such an
instrument, but he was close, and I thought it worthwhile for him to
drop by with his instrument just in case it was one of the things which
I *could* fix. (It was a beautiful instrument, BTW -- lots of pretty
inlay -- apparently designed to attract female players.)
The long-plates were secured by five L-screws. Three along the
top long edge (the bottom one was butted into a groove at the
intersection of the reed blocks and the actionboard), and one at each
end.
No - I'm not going to take up repairing Bandoneons as a rule --
for most things I would have to build too much new fixturing. But
something simple, with the owner local works out occasionally.
Enjoy,
Ike Milligan
vibrations are transmitted along the plate. Thinner walls of the chambers
can also mean less damping of the vibrations. If you have ever noticed
inside a Hohner Corona there may be 2 steel rods between the center and 2
side reed treble blocks. This is not so much to keep them a distance apart
as to transmit vibrations.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Theodore Kloba" <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3E9EBAB3...@yahoo.com...
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
Thanks a lot for your answer!
Can you send me the email address of the Russian manufactory for reeds?
Do you have some more Information on the Quality of this long bajan
reeds?
The pictures look good, but the air tightness what is it like?
0,2 mm gap or more do you know?
Are the tongues hand riveted?
Do the sell the row material tongues and Groundplates and rivets,
To assemble the reeds as one needs it for special arrangement?
Johann
>Really-Reply-To: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
>Really-From: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
Theodore Kloba
> Can you send me the email address of the Russian manufactory for reeds?
It's in a separate private email
> Do you have some more Information on the Quality of this long bajan
> reeds?
Not much. I contacted them regarding reeds for Chemnitzers and
Bandonions. The cost for their reeds would have been prohibitive, so I
ended the discussion. There were also a few things mentioned that made
me suspicious of a scam.
> The pictures look good, but the air tightness what is it like?
That depends more on the reed block and sealing method than on the reeds
themselves.
> 0,2 mm gap or more do you know?
I don't know.
> Are the tongues hand riveted?
Probably.
> Do the sell the row material tongues and Groundplates and rivets,
> To assemble the reeds as one needs it for special arrangement?
I asked about buying the tongues separately (and making my own plates
with laser cutting) but they were not interested.
There are other manufacturers making this type of reed in Russia such as
AKKO and Shuyskaya, and I believe Elpro-Delicia in the Czech Republic
(www.delicia.cz) makes long-plate diatonic reeds.
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
Thanks again for all info!
>> Do you have some more Information on the Quality of this long bajan
>> reeds?
>Not much. I contacted them regarding reeds for Chemnitzers and
>Bandonions. The cost for their reeds would have been prohibitive, so I
>ended the discussion. There were also a few things mentioned that made
>me suspicious of a scam.
Du You mean the price is to high?
Can You tell what made You suspicious?
>> Do the sell the row material tongues and Groundplates and rivets,
>> To assemble the reeds as one needs it for special arrangement?
>I asked about buying the tongues separately (and making my own plates
>with laser cutting) but they were not interested.
>There are other manufacturers making this type of reed in Russia such
as
>AKKO and Shuyskaya, and I believe Elpro-Delicia in the Czech Republic
>(www.delicia.cz) makes long-plate diatonic reeds.
Do You have the Addresses of AKKO and Shuyskaya?
Delicia I can tell for sure the do not make there own reeds the are in
some
connection with harmonikas reeds from luny http://www.harmonikas.cz
And the produce all kind of reeds if you pay enough for single spark
erosion production.
I have visited them and I have reds from them to.
Johann
DoN. Nichols
Ike Milligan <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>The main advantage of long reed plates, that I can see is that the
>vibrations are transmitted along the plate.
Hmm ... differing opinions here. To my mind, the greater mass
of combining all of the reeds in a row into a single plate is that the
plate has greater mass than an individual plate for one pair of reeds,
and thus acts as a more stable anchor for the riveted end of the reed,
thus confining more of the vibrations to the actual reed tongue, and
wasting less of the energy in moving the plate. This would result in
less air being needed to maintain a given level of vibration.
> Thinner walls of the chambers
>can also mean less damping of the vibrations. If you have ever noticed
>inside a Hohner Corona there may be 2 steel rods between the center and 2
>side reed treble blocks. This is not so much to keep them a distance apart
>as to transmit vibrations.
Are you sure that it is not to *minimize* the vibrations in the
reed blocks and the valve board? Those vibrations are wasted energy,
since there is not a sound board to couple them into sound in air, and
just detracts from the energy available to the reed. (The test is how
much do you hear of the reed's continuing vibration when you suddenly
stop by closing the valve?) I *feel* a little of the vibration of the
lowest reeds in my Bass concertina, but I don't *hear* them. (And --
the waste vibration may start other reeds vibrating in sympathy -- which
again does little for the sound of the instrument.) By tying a reed
block to two adjacent reed blocks, you are essentially tripling the
mass which the reed is trying to vibrate, and again makes a better
anchor so less of the reed's energy is wasted trying to bend the valve
board to which the reed blocks are attached.
Enjoy,
Ike Milligan
--
www.1accordion.net
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b7posn$9fm$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
Rashid Karimov
> Thinking about russian long reed plates - in addition to the
> differences in sound (many say better), wouldn't the long plates be
> lighter and take less space as a system than individual plates?
> Couldn't the reed tongues be closer together? Wouldn't that result in
> less overall size and weight for the accordion outfitted with long
> plates?
It depends really. One is right in assuming that slightly higher
density
can be achieved by going away with empty spaces between Italian-style
reeds (required to pour wax in).
However, Russians mostly use much heavier alluminum in the reed plane
construction. The reasons are many, one of them is to be able to
re-rivet a broken reed, should necessity arise. Softer/lighter
alluminum
alloys would not allow for that.
>
> How are long plates attached to the reed blocks? Is it waxed or
> mechanically attached? How is air-tightness maintained between the
> adjacent chambers in the reed block? With individual reed plates
> there is wood and wax between each reed plate. With long reeds, I
> could see wood dividers, but there is no where to seal it with wax
> unless its done from inside the reed block, which seems impractical.
A very thin layer of leather (rawhide ? .7mm or so) is applied (glued
onto) to the blocks that provides for air-tightness. One can easily
see just how even and perfectly flat the surface of both the reed
block and reed plane has to be for absolute air tightness.
"L" shaped screws and simple system of alignment are then used to
attach
the reed plates to the block. 180 degree turn of 3-4 L-shaped screws
is all that
is needed to free the reed plane.
The dividers are extremely thin - about .5mm or so, to manage the
overall size
of the instrument (with 64 sounding notes in RH one has to conserve by
all means
available).
>
stevesaccordionshop
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: rashidk@h... (Rashid Karimov)
> Really-From: rashidk@h... (Rashid Karimov)
> However, Russians mostly use much heavier alluminum in the reed
plane
> construction. The reasons are many, one of them is to be able to
> re-rivet a broken reed, should necessity arise. Softer/lighter
> alluminum
> alloys would not allow for that.
Very good Rashid. Also the heavier plate provides stability in
granting each tongue its full impact sound-wise. The Russian
craftsman is far from dumb and their contributions have been many.
I say that in all respect, not because my surname is a close relative.
Steve Navoyosky
Rashid Karimov
they
do call them just that in Russian: "kuskovye planki") is one of the
tougher
processes to master.
A number of methods are used:
- punch/die, good for high-pitched reeds, due to small size. Not so
good for
lower-pitched (larger) ones ... Italians can do it 'cause of use of
very soft alluminum alloys. Russians don't as dies of significant
size will deform the plane badly.
- Milling with manual filing followup. This is how Russian reed planes
are made,
for the most part. EXTREMELY laborious process.
- EDM (electric discharge machining) - this is when a tiny speck of
material
is evaporated, one by one, by small electrical spark. This is the most
precise process, but also fairly slow & expensive one.
- Laser cutting. This one is a no go as it radically alters metal's
composition
due to extremely high temperatures.
- Abrasive jet cutting. This one shows the most promise but I don't
know of
anyone using it just yet.
The last three methods are controlled by computers and achieve very
precise tolerances, with EDM being the most precise and jet cutting in
last place.
Now, cutting the reeds to precisely fit the cut in the reed plane is a
whole
different issue. Russians use all manual process and thus achieve the
most
precise fit. Pro Bayans are well known for their low air consumption
when playing (courtesy of the precise fit), excellent response in
Piano-Pianissimo.
Since the reed plane cuts are man-made/finished, better masters will
have
reeds filed to exactly repeat the contour of the respective cut ..
with
all the little curves and irregularities. Takes an excellent eyesight,
lotsa of practice, patience and steady arm. It is typical for a worker
to go through 10-15 (!!!) files a month ... blue steel is very tough
to file.
Side effect is reeds jamming/buzzing in low temperatures... not
designed to play on parades etc :)
And another thing is shaping reed's profile (thickness). Italians use
grinders and thus profiles are more uniform. Cons: significant heat is
generated in process, even though grinders are operated at low RPMs
and
all attempts are made to cool the steel in process.
Russians do it all by hand. I take this one over the other method any
day of
the week.
One can not expect mate a set of reeds to (a set of) reed planes -
the two
have to be made for e-o.
And just to make it even more fun: the cuts in the reed planes in
Russian
instruments widen toward the surface farther from the reed. There are
recent
development in abrasive jet where one can tilt the cutting nozzle to
achieve
proper effect, but they still do it manually, with wide thin files,
for the most part. Again, I beleive abrasive jets have potential to
revolutionize
accordion making bussiness ... for some reason they haven't just yet
...
Don't forget it is very much a very unique, custom process as far as
pro instruments go, where centuries-old traditions are more valued
than the latest gizmos and ways to shorten the process.
Beleive me: when you see just how much manual labor goes into making
of a single pro instrument, you will understand the sticker price ! :)
Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3EA00EAF...@yahoo.com>...
Theodore Kloba
> Do You have the Addresses of AKKO and Shuyskaya?
Since you've already heard from Rashid, you know how to contact AKKO.
Shuyskaya has a website here:
There's a link on the page for email, but they do not speak English. It
can't hurt to ask if they speak German, though.
Theodore Kloba
> - punch/die, good for high-pitched reeds, due to small size. Not so
> good for
> lower-pitched (larger) ones ... Italians can do it 'cause of use of
> very soft alluminum alloys.
...
> - Laser cutting. This one is a no go as it radically alters metal's
> composition
> due to extremely high temperatures.
This makes me wonder about the possibility of working with untempered
metal for cutting purposes and heat-treating afterwards.
I remember (I'll have to check references) hearing about John Friedl,
who made reeds for some of the best early 20th-century Chemnitzers in
Chicago. Supposedly he would make the reed tongues and then put them
all in some kind of oven. Presumably this was a hardening process.
(I think in Minnesota they make religious icons of Friedl along with
instrument builder Otto Schlicht.)
Theodore Kloba
> - EDM (electric discharge machining) - this is when a tiny speck of
> material
> is evaporated, one by one, by small electrical spark. This is the most
> precise process, but also fairly slow & expensive one.
Sounds like you're describibg wire-EDM. Wouldn't volume-EDM be faster
(if not cheaper)?
Mario Bruneau
Accordion reeds are not amplified by any soundboard unlike the piano
string. The so-called "soundboard" in accordions is just to specifiy
the board that carry the reed blocks (sound blocks) but it does not
resonate with them. If the reed blocks are the mains that produces the
sound, you call the board that carry them the soundboard. It could have
been called the "blocksboard" or the reed blocks board but it's getting
too complicated so for convenience, we call it "soundboard".
The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid system
wich is good. Better and more harmonics are produced that way. In
other words, the accordion sounds brighter (so better for my taste)
--
Mario Bruneau
Montréal (514) 624-7860
http://www.mariobruneau.com french
http://www.helenecardinal.com bilingual
http://www.accordions.com/mario bilingual
DoN. Nichols a écrit:
Theodore Kloba
> The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
> combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid system
> wich is good. Better and more harmonics are produced that way. In
> other words, the accordion sounds brighter (so better for my taste)
Some other things that seem to make the sound brighter (along with
hypotheses about why):
A thinner actionboard (maybe because is gets the reed closer to the
outside.)
Blocks glued to the actionboard (takes away the dampening effect of the
gasket.)
Free ends of the reed toward the actionboard the sound is produced
closer to where it exits the box)
Thinner pads on the key valves (less absorbtion).
Harder wood with a smoother finish in the blocks (less absorbtion).
Johann Pascher
Hi, Mario Bruneau!
>Accordion reeds are not amplified by any soundboard unlike the piano
>string. The so-called "soundboard" in accordions is just to specify
>the board that carry the reed blocks (sound blocks) but it does not
>resonate with them.
Tests in Germany have proved that all parts are in some way are
resonating!
But you are right; the resonating duos not contribute as much that one
Sees an effect when the spectrum of the sound is compered with different
Housings or soundboards.
The reason is because the sound generated and radiated trough air from
the reeds is
85 dB and the sound radiated from the case is 55 dB, a difference of 30
dB
So we hear manly the sound directly radiated form the reeds.
On the other hand this tests have also proved that there is a healable
difference in if the case is changed, you also see on the
Spectrum of the different Accordions that there is a difference.
But it is impossible to tell what makes all the difference.
And don’t wee know that a concetina sounds different to a bandoneon ..
And it is not only the reeds, or the reedblock.
>If the reed blocks are the mains that produces the
>sound, you call the board that carry them the soundboard. It could
have
>been called the "blocksboard" or the reed blocks board but it's getting
>too complicated so for convenience, we call it "soundboard".
>The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
>combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid system
>wich is good.
The main porpoise of the reed block is to get the air to the reed.
The masses of the reeds do contribute to the sound loudness but not
much.
The sound duos not mainly get transmitted from the reed to the reedblock
to the Soundboard. Coupling to the Case and to the soundboard is
establisht mainly through airwaves! This is also proved in tests.
>Better and more harmonics are produced that way. In
>other words, the accordion sounds brighter (so better for my taste)
Did you make this experience?
Can you explain haw you can tell that it makes a difference?
Ok You says for your test. The man reason way tone chambers on the
treble part are in use on high end Accordions is because it produces a
deeper sound formatting effect.
On low reeds ticker reed plates result in lower sound if pressure is
increased. Bat not the mass is the reason for more loudness.
On very high reeds brass reeds are used. Because the reed slot can be
made more precise.
A Danish patent reduces the thickness of the high reed on the tip of the
Reed to increase the loudness. Some little horn is incroved.
Johann
DoN. Nichols
Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rashid Karimov wrote:
>> - punch/die, good for high-pitched reeds, due to small size. Not so
>> good for
>> lower-pitched (larger) ones ... Italians can do it 'cause of use of
>> very soft alluminum alloys.
>
>...
>
>> - Laser cutting. This one is a no go as it radically alters metal's
>> composition
>> due to extremely high temperatures.
>
>This makes me wonder about the possibility of working with untempered
>metal for cutting purposes and heat-treating afterwards.
Well ... one thing to consider is that you *can't* harden
aluminum by heat-treating. Any application of heat softens the
aluminum, though some alloys slowly regain hardness after the
application and removal of heat. (Though they don't get to the full
hardness that they started from.)
Steel is unique (among the simple alloys) in that it has two
crystal structures -- one (very hard) naturally present at high
temperatures, and another (quite soft) naturally present at lower
temperatures. One is martensite, and the other is austenite. I don't
remember which is which, nor need the names matter for this discussion.
The trick in hardening steel is to heat it up to the conversion
temperature (at which point a magnet no longer attracts it, if you need
a test as to whether you are yet hot enough -- this is visibly red or
orange), then very quickly cool it (quench) in some liquid. For
relatively gentle cooling, oils are used. For quicker water, and for
even quicker brine.
Once you have done this -- the steel is *very* hard, and *very*
brittle. Not really good for much in that state, so the next step is to
re-heat it to some lower temperature (say around 400-500F) and hold it
at that temperature for a time period which is a function of the
thickness (to allow it to soak all the way to the center). This allows
some *controlled* conversion back to the softer crystalline form. You
can either do it in a controlled oven -- ideally in an inert atmosphere,
or you can polish part of the surface where the hardness matters and
slowly heat it wile watching the formation of oxides on the polished
surface. A very light straw color is a quite serviceably hard steel,
Too brittle for some things. Springs are normally somewhat softer --
and the deeper the blue, the softer, until the layer of oxides grows too
thick to judge color. Often, if the part needs a hard tip (say a
cutting tool) and a softer, tougher shank, the heat will be applied to
the shank, and the colors watched as they migrate to the tip. Once the
right color is reached at the tip, it is quenched again to stop the
process.
It is for reasons such as this that grinding of the reeds is
discouraged by some -- but a slow-speed grinder with a light touch,
applied with time to cool back between touches can do the job without
damage. Grinding the whole profile in one pass is a different question,
and requires a lot of coolant, and a good magnetic chuck as a heat sink.
>I remember (I'll have to check references) hearing about John Friedl,
>who made reeds for some of the best early 20th-century Chemnitzers in
>Chicago. Supposedly he would make the reed tongues and then put them
>all in some kind of oven. Presumably this was a hardening process.
Probably two cycles -- one to get it fully hard followed by a
quench and the second to (draw the) temper (of) the piece. The end
result of this will probably be a reed which blue all over -- at least
before the final tuning in the instrument.
>(I think in Minnesota they make religious icons of Friedl along with
>instrument builder Otto Schlicht.)
Sounds right to me. :-)
Squeeze On,
DoN. Nichols
Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rashid Karimov wrote:
>> - EDM (electric discharge machining) - this is when a tiny speck of
>> material
>> is evaporated, one by one, by small electrical spark. This is the most
>> precise process, but also fairly slow & expensive one.
>
>Sounds like you're describibg wire-EDM. Wouldn't volume-EDM be faster
>(if not cheaper)?
If you are referring to the graphite block electrode to machined
to produce a precise shape -- unless it is hollowed out to a very thin
(and thus short-lived) wall, it will have to spark away a lot more
volume of aluminum, which is a lot slower. It is a slow enough process
in any case. The major benefit of the graphite block EDM is in
producing precise holes in very hard materials.
One benefit of the wire EDM would be that after cutting the
primary slot it can be tilted by the computer to produce an undercut
part way though the plate's thickness to allow the reed to sound well at
lower pressures. I'll try to show the profile of the slot (looking
along its length) as found in an English Construction reed carrier:
============ <--reed
---------------+ +------------------
| |
Carrier side / \ Carrier side
_______________/ \________________
With this construction, the reed does not have to travel through the
full thickness of the carrier before the aerodynamic forces are starting
to work to drive it in the other direction.
This makes a wire EDM attractive for experimenting with reed
parameters. As far as I know, the carriers (brass) were punched to
somewhat undersized, then a swage was driven in from the bottom to
produce the sloped sides, and then a file was used to shape the final
dimensions of the upper part of the slot.
Note that I say for *experimenting* with the parameters. I'm
not at all sure that it would be an economical production technique.
It would also be interesting to see what difference a truly hard
and massive reed carrier might produce in the final sound.
Johann Pascher
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
>Mario Bruneau wrote:
>> The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
>> combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid
system
>> which is good. Better and more harmonics are produced that way. In
>> other words, the accordion sounds brighter (so better for my taste)
>Some other things that seem to make the sound brighter (along with
>hypotheses about why):
No hypotheses! All you write is proved in tests on IFM in Germany.
Over the last 50 Years.
>A thinner actionboard (maybe because is gets the reed closer to the
>outside.)
On deep reeds we need a long way to get less overtones.
The length of the air channel reed chamber plus actionboard hole
thickness build up a resonator. This resonator must be on harmonic
frequencies.
If it would be on the fundamental it would be far to short.
And the reed would not start easy if it would be tuned exact to
The reed frequency. The reason is because the reed and the resonator
build two tight coupled resonating systems. And if are the on the same
frequency too much energy is coupeled to the resonator. This is like
driving off with the brake toned on.
On high reeds the resonator is not needed the reed would sound louder if
The are mounted outside. Test with microphones inside the box show that.
On high tones everything what gets in the way of the sound is damping
more
As on deep tones. For piccolo tones it is best to mount them direct to
the
Action board. And surly every one knows that piccolo tons are often
mounted
with turned reedplates. So that the tip of the tongue is toward action
board. And the reedchambers are filled up in one or the other way.
I also have seen that the piccolo reeds have been mounted flat to the
opening in the reedblock so that no chamber is left for resonating only
the thickness of the actionbord to the flap build a little channel to
the outside.
>Blocks glued to the actionboard (takes away the dampening effect of the
>gasket.)
That’s also proved, but the effect is very little, just heard but
impossible to document in measurable difference.
>Free ends of the reed toward the actionboard the sound is produced
>closer to where it exits the box)
For high tones, yes but for deep tones the air channel has a layer to
make
The channel longer, a folded tube is build.
Do you know haw the reed chambers are constructed on bajans?
>Thinner pads on the key valves (less absorption).
Yes, but it duos not contribute much.
>Harder wood with a smoother finish in the blocks (less absorption).
Also right, but still not much change especially for middle treble tones
and no effect on high tones.
I have used Balsa wood, and it makes a change, less overtones on deep
tones especially when you stop the air, you hear the reed a short time
producing some sound with is reach with overtones.
These tones get absorbed to some extent if the wood for the dividers and
the layer for the fold are made out of a very soft balsa wood. The
fundamental tone is not damped it is still as loud as with hard wood.
With hard wood the overtones are more. I have made tests and the
spectrum
Shows much difference a very low tone. I have made the tests on Contra
G.
I also mad tests with absorbing material inside of the very low reed
chambers. The reed chambers have the size 10 cm long 4 cm high divided
with a layer to fold the tube.
3 mm thick felt material inside of the chamber. But nothing changed!
Johann
Theodore Kloba
> It is for reasons such as this that grinding of the reeds is
> discouraged by some -- but a slow-speed grinder with a light touch,
> applied with time to cool back between touches can do the job without
> damage. Grinding the whole profile in one pass is a different question,
> and requires a lot of coolant, and a good magnetic chuck as a heat sink.
No doubt this is why Friedl did his own heat-treating after creating the
profiles.
Mario Bruneau
> Some other things that seem to make the sound brighter (along with
> hypotheses about why):
>
> A thinner actionboard (maybe because is gets the reed closer to the
> outside.)
True
>
> Blocks glued to the actionboard (takes away the dampening effect of the
> gasket.)
True
>
> Free ends of the reed toward the actionboard the sound is produced
> closer to where it exits the box)
>
> Thinner pads on the key valves (less absorbtion).
>
> Harder wood with a smoother finish in the blocks (less absorbtion).
>
Thank you Theodore, very interesting
Ike Milligan
is new i run it at full speed with a drop of oil but use the lightest
possible pressure, feather light, barely touching and only for 1/2 second.
Diamond is the hardest material on earth and will scratch without pressure
or needeing to produce heat. I have seen reeds mutilated by using softer
stones and with pits or grooves and even with grooves on the plate where no
shim was used. However I believe a diamond stone can be as accurate or more
so than a file.
"Theodore Kloba" <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3EA54A7D...@yahoo.com...
DoN. Nichols
Ike Milligan <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I use a Dremel battery powered tool with a small diamond stone. If the stone
>is new i run it at full speed with a drop of oil but use the lightest
>possible pressure, feather light, barely touching and only for 1/2 second.
>Diamond is the hardest material on earth and will scratch without pressure
>or needeing to produce heat.
Agreed -- but there are problems with using diamond tools on
steel. If you *do* go fast enough to generate heat locally, and there
always is *some* anyway -- you wind up getting the interface hot enough
so that the diamond migrates into the steel -- making it harder locally.
Polycrystaline diamond lathe tools are very good on *other* very hard
materials, including abrasive materials. I have some PCD inserts -- but
have not yet made the toolholders to try them out.
However -- when working on steel, a better material is CBN (Cubic
Boron Nitride) as an abrasive or a tool bit. These are available -- and
may even cost less than your diamond tools.
Running at full speed -- even with oil, is likely to cause that
carbon migration from the diamond to the steel, causing harder spots
-- which *may* serve as the focal point for future failures -- many flex
cycles down the road.
> I have seen reeds mutilated by using softer
>stones and with pits or grooves and even with grooves on the plate where no
>shim was used. However I believe a diamond stone can be as accurate or more
>so than a file.
The stones which I use are the green carbide stones -- a harder
stone than the average, and I use a diamond to profile (dress) the edge
of that stone to make sure that I don't cut sharp steps, and to provide
clean fresh abrasive grains, since ones which have been used too long
will be glazed, and will heat up the workpiece more than a clean fresh
surface will. I use full speed when dressing the stone, but almost
never when tuning a reed.
I also keep the stone moving when it is in contact with the
reed, to spread the area thinned. And of *course* I support the reed on
shims. Though I have heard of others who have found reeds in carriers
scored by *filing* the reed without a shim, so there is no guarantee of
good workmanship just because someone is using a file.
On a surface grinder, I use white stones which have been
carefully dressed with a diamond point. And I use very shallow cuts --
perhaps 0.001" deep per pass. This is when I am making experimental
reeds from scratch.
Squeeze On.
Johann Pascher
Hi, Ike Milligan!
You are writing:
>I use a Dremel battery powered tool with a small diamond stone.
>If the stone is new i run it at full speed with a drop of oil
>but use the lightest possible pressure, feather light,
>barely touching and only for 1/2 second.
>Diamond is the hardest material on earth and will scratch
>without pressure or needeing to produce heat.
>I have seen reeds mutilated by using softer
>stones and with pits or grooves and even with grooves
>on the plate where no shim was used.
>However I believe a diamond stone can be as accurate or
>more so than a file.
I have tried to use Dremel with a stone, but it only worked
in some extent on middle range tones. And not for fine tuning.
I do not mind to use files. And for the final tuning, it me you only need a scratch with the tip of the file, one mm long can be enough.
The tip of a small three-angle file is broken of to get a sharp edge.
I have seen that in the production of reeds the use automatic tuning equipment and the tuning is dune with Dremel Stones.
On very low tones (Helicon) the tune by hand.
The use a wood stick with sand paper glued on it.
The tongue is punched to the workbench on a metal surface support.
The support under the tongue is removed to control the tone with just pulling on the tongue and watching the tuning meter.
That's not the final tuning! It is the is the first tuning after applying the curve for the tongue on a very large grander with a
very slow grinding and cooling. The Steel for the tongues is in strips
and the get cut to tongues after the fist grinding.
Johann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ike Milligan
heat to cause the carbon to migrate. If it did would n't the stone wear out
extremely fast and have to be replaced? If for some reason I ever have to
grind that much, I use a larger carbide stone, like large changes to a bass
reed, sometimes but seldom, necessary.
--
www.1accordion.net
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b8574d$i6u$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
Ike Milligan
can make very light scratches very easily with low pressure. The stone I use
was not obtained from Dremel, but a jewelry supply company. I try to order
the most narrow stone available, and another with a tiny ball shaped end.
The reason for running it at full speed is that at a lower speed it bounces
if the stone is not symmetrical.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
news:004b01c3096d$f25492e0$7822bf0a@jplp...
Mario Bruneau
> "L" shaped screws and simple system of alignment are then used to
> attach
> the reed plates to the block. 180 degree turn of 3-4 L-shaped screws
> is all that
> is needed to free the reed plane.
What is a "L" shaped screw?
Is there a web site where I can see a picture of it?
Very interesting tread, thanks all!
Mario Bruneau
>
>>Accordion reeds are not amplified by any soundboard unlike the piano
>>string. The so-called "soundboard" in accordions is just to specify
>>the board that carry the reed blocks (sound blocks) but it does not
>>resonate with them.
>
>
> Tests in Germany have proved that all parts are in some way are
> resonating!
> But you are right; the resonating does not contribute as much that one
> Sees an effect when the spectrum of the sound is compered with different
>
> Housings or soundboards.
> The reason is because the sound generated and radiated trough air from
> the reeds is
> 85 dB and the sound radiated from the case is 55 dB, a difference of 30
> dB
> So we hear manly the sound directly radiated form the reeds.
Thanks for this informations Johann!
>
> On the other hand this tests have also proved that there is a healable
> difference in if the case is changed, you also see on the
> Spectrum of the different Accordions that there is a difference.
> But it is impossible to tell what makes all the difference.
Not so Johann. It is possible to explain why different accordion cases
sound different. It is mainly due to the different "paths" sound
travels and the way it is "obstruded". The "frech" open grill makes it
easyer for the sound to travel out the accordion ence a brighter sound.
The lever mechanics of chromatic accordions makes the valves pads go
further away from the valve hole so it is less obstrusive and makes the
sound brighter, etc.
>
> And don’t wee know that a concetina sounds different to a bandoneon ..
> And it is not only the reeds, or the reedblock.
This is obvious.
>>If the reed blocks are the means that produces the
>>sound, you call the board that carry them the soundboard. It could
>>have been called the "blocksboard" or the reed blocks board but it's getting
>>too complicated so for convenience, we call it "soundboard".
>>The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
>>combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid system
>>wich is good.
>
>
> The main porpoise of the reed block is to get the air to the reed.
> The masses of the reeds do contribute to the sound loudness but not
> much.
You got me wrong here Johann. I was referring to the combine rigidity
the reeds get by combining several reed plates into a long reed plate
like the russian bayans. The italian type duo reed plates are
"floating" in their wax because of the soft material caracteristic of
wax so the plate is not as stable and rigid as with the long russian
plate screwed to the blocks.
> The sound duos not mainly get transmitted from the reed to the reedblock
> to the Soundboard. Coupling to the Case and to the soundboard is
> establisht mainly through airwaves! This is also proved in tests.
I agree totally with this.
>>Better and more harmonics are produced that way (russian long reed plates). In
>>other words, the accordion sounds brighter (so better for my taste)
>
>
> Did you make this experience?
> Can you explain haw you can tell that it makes a difference?
This is the "hypothetical" experience I give to explain this:
Tie a long rope (25 feets) to a steady fence on one end and make a wave
by swinging only once the other end. You will notice that the wave will
comme back to you at about the same amplitude or size. If it was 2
feets high, it will come bac 2 feets high.
Then tie the same rope to a loose fence or a mooving part of that fence
or have it hold loosely by someone and make a wave the same way you did
it before. If it was 2 feets high, chaces are it will come back only 1
feet to you. The evergy got lost in the loose fence or the mooving part
of that fence or the arm of the person olding it.
>
> Ok You says for your test. The man reason way tone chambers on the
> treble part are in use on high end Accordions is because it produces a
> deeper sound formatting effect.
Because the path to the sounds escape from the accordion is broken
because the reeds are deeper inside the accordion.
>
> On low reeds ticker reed plates result in lower sound if pressure is
> increased. Bat not the mass is the reason for more loudness.
Again, I was not referring to the mass of the reed but the rigidity of
the plate that holds it.
>
> On very high reeds brass reeds are used. Because the reed slot can be
> made more precise.
> A Danish patent reduces the thickness of the high reed on the tip of the
>
> Reed to increase the loudness. Some little horn is incroved.
>
> Johann
>
--
DoN. Nichols
Mario Bruneau <pmb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
[ ... ]
>then Johann Pascher answear:
[ ... ]
Precisely -- energy lost from the reed to the supporting medium
is energy which can't keep the reed vibrating, so you need more energy
input from the bellows airflow.
Enjoy,
DoN. Nichols
Ike Milligan <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I doubt whether the tiny diamond stone I have been using generates enough
>heat to cause the carbon to migrate.
Well -- the heat can be very local. And of course, you can get
away with this for a while, at least.
> If it did would n't the stone wear out
>extremely fast and have to be replaced?
It *will* wear out faster than a CBN wheel used on steel, or the
diamond used on a non-ferrous material of similar or even greater
hardness. The diamond is used by choice in sharpening Tungsten carbide
bits -- as long as you aren't grinding on the steel shanks to which the
carbide is sometimes brazed.
Note that while steel *does* accelerate the wear on the wheel, it is
not so bad that it prevents the "Drill Doctor" makers from supplying a
diamond wheel for use both on HSS drill bits and carbide ones. They
figure that the people who will be sharpening enough drill bits to wear
it out while the warranty is valid will be purchasing the more
industrial sharpeners, and this lets them sharpen carbide masonry bits
with the same machine. I don't know whether anyone has yet worn out the
wheel in a Drill Doctor -- just that I still have my spare. It is
slow enough to use so you really have to work at sharpening drill bits
every day to have problems. :-)
> If for some reason I ever have to
>grind that much, I use a larger carbide stone, like large changes to a bass
>reed, sometimes but seldom, necessary.
O.K. That makes sense.
My worst-case (other than making experimental test reeds which
are done on the surface grinder) is when shifting a concertina from
Salvation Army pitch -- A=456, or about 60-70 cents sharp) to modern
(A=440) pitch.
Enjoy,
DoN. Nichols
Mario Bruneau <pmb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>Rashid Karimov a écrit:
>
>> "L" shaped screws and simple system of alignment are then used to
>> attach
>> the reed plates to the block. 180 degree turn of 3-4 L-shaped screws
>> is all that
>> is needed to free the reed plane.
>
>What is a "L" shaped screw?
>Is there a web site where I can see a picture of it?
>Very interesting tread, thanks all!
Start with a wood screw -- tapered point, threads, shank and
head. Now trim off the head, and make the unthreaded shank longer.
Bend that shank at right angles, so it looks like an upside-down capital
letter 'L'. The threads are above the visible body of the 'L'. and the
bent part (at the bottom of the letter, at the top with the screw) bends
over the top of the reed plate, holding it into firm contact with the
leather gasket below.
If you want an image of quite a few of them -- go to my web page
(URL in my .sig below), go down until you find the link labeled "What
else could a concertina be?", go to the bottom of that page (which is
about a Chemnitzer -- very similar to a Bandoneon), and you'll find a
shot of the reedblocks. Look at them (save the larger image and zoom in
if you need to), and you will see that at the end of each of the reed
plates there is a 'L'-shaped screw holding it in place. (Also,
remembering other recent discussions, note how close together the reed
plates are mounted. :-)
The bottom of each reed plate is tucked into a groove between a
strip of wood and the reed block.
If you want to short-circuit the stepping down through the page,
try the following URL, which will take you directly to the larger photo:
http://www.d-and-d.com/PHOTOS/GIFs/chem-reed-01.gif
Squeeze On,
Johann Pascher
I have written there is a Danish patent!
I am sorry it is not a Danish patent!
It is Netherland!
Unfortunately the link is not working at the moment.
Johann
Accordion Reed Research and Development - Netherlands
Jac Verberne has just completed a new accordion development called "High Output Piccolo Voice". This is a small hole under the reed tongue, shaped like a trumpet beaker. The dimensions of this hole are very important because it alters the production of sound including the higher harmonic tones. For each tone the dimensions of the trumpet beaker differs.
As well as repairing and selling accordions, Jac's hobby is the study of accordion reeds and as an engineer he takes great interest in this. Assisted by his former colleagues from the Philips Physics Laboratory, he studied the differences between Italian, German and Russian tongue materials using electron microscopy technology.
Over the past few years Jac concentrated on piccolo reeds, trying to achieve a better volume balance between low and high sounds. His new patented reed construction can be applied to any type of reed but the most impressive results are A#3 to D5. Jac Verberne had a display at the recent Coupe Mondiale for interested visitors to view.
Inventor Presents Accordion Innovation
November 1998: The Dutch accordion repairman and retailer, Jac Verberne, presented his invention, the patented High Output Piccolo Voice, at the 1998 Coupe Mondial. He wrote, "During the last 162 years, the design of accordions has changed much, but only on the externals, not on the source of energy: the voice. Not until now with the invention of the HOPV."
Verberne continued, "In the frame of the voice, under the tongue, a little hole is made. The shape looks like a trumpetbeaker. The dimensions of this hole are very important because with this you can manipulate the production of sound energy as well as the upper/underharmonic tones. For each tone the dimensions of the trumpetbeaker differs."
Verberne claimed that visitors at the Coupe Mondial were impressed by the improvement in sound.
Helped by his former colleagues at the Philips physics laboratories, he studied the differences between Italian, German and Russian tongue-material with an electron microscope. He also made films of tongues moving, starting and stopping, with 30,000 frames per second.
During the past few years he concentrated exclusively on the piccolo voices, trying to achieve a better loudness balance between low and high sounding voices. His patented voice-construction can be applied to any type of voice but the results are the most impressive at the voices from a#3 up to d5.
For more information see www.accordeon.nl or write to acc...@IAEhv.nl
Hi, Mario Bruneau!
Johann
stevesaccordionshop
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, Johann Pascher <jp@e...> wrote:
>
> Accordion Reed Research and Development - Netherlands
>
> Jac Verberne has just completed a new accordion development
called "High Output Piccolo Voice". This is a small hole under the
reed tongue, shaped like a trumpet beaker. The dimensions of this
hole are very important because it alters the production of sound
including the higher harmonic tones. For each tone the dimensions of
the trumpet beaker differs.
>
This not a new idea. The process has been used with skins and
reedblocks in the past. All remove the pressure and provide volume
ease. It may be new in the Netherlands but not with the Italians of
the past.
Johann Pascher
Hi, snip!
Thanks for Your comment!
Do You know more abut the Italian reeds in the past?
It would Interest me to get more Information on Italian reed types.
John`s_ NEWS
You have a lot of nice information about tuning and repair accordions.
Are you working for the Accordion School in Wiena or do you have your own
Accordion Repair Shop.
Regards,
John
"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
news:00bd01c30a5b$f03f0730$7822bf0a@jplp...
Johann Pascher
Hi, Mario Bruneau!
A picture of an L-shaped screw
Johann
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/schrauben.jpg
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 1:05 AM
Subject: SML: Re: "long" russian reed plates
Really-Reply-To: pmb...@videotron.ca
pmb...@videotron.ca
Really-From: Mario Bruneau <pmb...@NOvideotronSPAM.ca>
Rashid Karimov a écrit:
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Theodore Kloba
DoN. Nichols wrote:
> Mario Bruneau <pmb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>What is a "L" shaped screw?
>
> If you want an image of quite a few of them -- go to my web page
> (URL in my .sig below), go down until you find the link labeled "What
> else could a concertina be?", go to the bottom of that page (which is
> about a Chemnitzer -- very similar to a Bandoneon), and you'll find a
> shot of the reedblocks.
Some other photos are here: http://www.geocities.com/heytud/reeds/
There is a bandonion reedblock showing the screws, with the reedplate
removed (or not yet attached).
Johann Pascher
Hi, Mario Bruneau!
I do some comments again.
Johann Pascher did write:
>
> >
> > On the other hand this tests have also proved that there is a healable
> > difference in if the case is changed, you also see on the
> > Spectrum of the different Accordions that there is a difference.
>>
> > But it is impossible to tell what makes all the difference.
> Mario Bruneau wrote:
> >
> Not so Johann. It is possible to explain why different accordion cases
> sound different. It is mainly due to the different "paths" sound
> travels and the way it is "obstruded". The "frech" open grill makes it
> easyer for the sound to travel out the accordion ence a brighter sound.
> The lever mechanics of chromatic accordions makes the valves pads go
> further away from the valve hole so it is less obstrusive and makes the
> sound brighter, etc.
Yes I agree!
With the sentence:
“But it is impossible to tell what makes all the difference.”
I meant, not the grill, the tone casotto, and so on.
We see the difference an the spectrum and we deffinately hear the
difference.
I meant it is very difficult to tune for a special resonating point. It is
clear that many
Parts of the case (also other parts) are vibrating at certain frequnzes.
And the build formatting filters for the sound.
But because the are not as strong as on a violin you cant put it to the
Spot with parts do make a change.
It is nearly impossible to “tune” the Housing for special formatting.
On violin’s it is done, because soundboards build standing waves that can be
made visuable.
> >
> > And don’t wee know that a concetina sounds different to a bandoneon ..
> > And it is not only the reeds, or the reedblock.
>
> This is obvious.
>
>
> >>If the reed blocks are the means that produces the
> >>sound, you call the board that carry them the soundboard. It could
> >>have been called the "blocksboard" or the reed blocks board but it's
getting
> >>too complicated so for convenience, we call it "soundboard".
> >>The reed needs "rigidity" so not to loose any energy like Don say so
> >>combining them into a longer lingle plate makes it a more rigid system
> >>wich is good.
> >
> >
> > The main porpoise of the reed block is to get the air to the reed.
> > The masses of the reeds do contribute to the sound loudness but not
> > much.
>
> You got me wrong here Johann. I was referring to the combine rigidity
> the reeds get by combining several reed plates into a long reed plate
> like the russian bayans.
Perhaps I do not get it right again?
Would be good if there would be some proof for the theory that the combining
mass of the reeds to a single long plate improves loudness or perhaps leads
to more overtones.
I have spoken with Mr. Gunter Ziegenhals from the IFM in Germany and he also
says the mass of the reed is in some way in relation with the loudness.
I could not proof this anthill yet. I have made test with very light
material on helicon tones.
And I was surprised the ton was not lower in Volume as with Brass Reed
Frames.
But the overtones did get less; the sound was not as bright as with Brass
Frames.
One thing I found is that the Screw near the tip of the tongue and the wood
part where it is screwed down is very important for the Volume.
The screw or the mounting near the foot of the reed is not important; it
just needs to be airtight.
And Brass reed frames do make a change on treble tones as well.
I do have a set, but again for me it is not sure is it the frame or is it
only the different tongues on these frames.
Me really would interest what others think what make a difference.
How do Bajns sound in compression to other accordions, I do not have the
change to compere.
I only did hear bajans on its own.
> The Italian type duo reed plates are
> "floating" in their wax because of the soft material caracteristic of
> wax so the plate is not as stable and rigid as with the long russian
> plate screwed to the blocks.
Some floating in lengths direction cold be wounded, because the reed block
is vibrating manly in length direction on the fundamental frquenz and if You
have the long reed plate it hinders this or it must vibrate on a higher
frqunzy.
On also would think if a reed-block is mounted to the Soundboard it is
stoped from making this vibrations.
But there are also test again on IFM that this is not the case. Nearly
nothing changes with the screwing down.
Read blocks made out of hard material change also the sound a little toward
brighter more overtones.
If one would like a very bright sound perhaps aluminium reedblocks would be
worth trying.
But I rather tray to get a softer sound.
>
> > The sound duos not mainly get transmitted from the reed to the
reed-block
Johann
Johann Pascher
Hi,
John!
>You have a lot of nice information about tuning and repair accordions.
I am glad You like the info.
>Are you working for the Accordion School in Vienna or do you have your own
>Accordion Repair Shop.
No, I only do it for my own pleasure!
And I think Music on the Accordion is wonderful, and to work wit our hands
And and and ....
(I earn my leaving with teaching Cisco CCNA at the moment.)
Regards,
John`s_ NEWS
It is really my pleasure to read your posts and that you are a dedicated
accordion enthusiast.
You are giving a true excellent information.
Best Regards,
John
John`s Accordion Service
http://www.johnsaccordionservice.com/
"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
news:011a01c30a71$f6a38680$7822bf0a@jplp...