beginner...CBA "C" system or "B" system?
antonista
accordion, have switched over to the chromatic. Does anybody recommend
either the C system or the B system? I mainly would like to play
polka, german, and swissy styles.
Thanks for your help!
allen watsky
switched to B because my favorite player plays B system. When I got my B
griff I found that its layout was more agreeable to me and "somehow" seemed
to sound like the music I wanted to play. So I guess I am a nonscientific
endorcement for the B system. Most everyone plays C griff. I play Eastern
European folk music, Klezmer and etc. So the earliest recordings of that
music were made with the B griff. If I listen to the recordings and try to
play along I find it "easy" to find those patterns on my instrument. It just
feals good. So there it is, Good Luck !
"antonista" <anto...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cfe34a70.04051...@posting.google.com...
Werner Partner
> I started with a C griff on the recomendation of a local instructor, but
> switched to B because my favorite player plays B system. When I got my B
> griff I found that its layout was more agreeable to me and "somehow" seemed
> to sound like the music I wanted to play. So I guess I am a nonscientific
> endorcement for the B system. Most everyone plays C griff. I play Eastern
> European folk music, Klezmer and etc. So the earliest recordings of that
> music were made with the B griff. If I listen to the recordings and try to
> play along I find it "easy" to find those patterns on my instrument. It just
> feals good. So there it is, Good Luck !
You write it - it's just a matter of "how you like it". If you play MIII
you should take C griff because normally MIII-Manuals are made in C-griff.
Finnish players usually use C griff but with C in third row. Russian
players usually use B griff. In Germany it's half and half - little bit
more C griff. The reason is that most (younger) Button players use MIII,
too, and so it's C griff.
But funny is: You write C griff and not C grip or grasp or grab or
fingering. A German word found it's way ;-)
Werner
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kai...@sonoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/
J. Coon
What is MIII?
use...@d-and-d.com wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: kai...@sonoptikon.de
> kai...@sonoptikon.de
> Really-From: Werner Partner <kai...@sonoptikon.de>
Moshe Braner
>
> I started with a C griff on the recomendation of a local instructor, but
> switched to B because my favorite player plays B system. When I got my B
> griff I found that its layout was more agreeable to me and "somehow"
> seemed
> to sound like the music I wanted to play. So I guess I am a nonscientific
My scientific (?) but untested (*) theory is that it doesn't matter.
The reason is that on the C system, moving diagonally one button in the
direction from right shoulder to left knee moves up a half note, and
diagonally in the other direction (left shoulder to right knee) moves
up a whole note. In the B system it is exactly the opposite (**).
Real melodies use both whole and half note intervals. Moreover, in
either system the scales "wrap around" eventually, as one plays on
a finite number of rows (3, usually), so there are jumps between the
first and last rows. I play the C system (chose simply because it is
more common "in the West") and I find that some tunes on some rows
feel very akward, requiring "twisting" of the wrist. But choosing to
play the same tune in the same key on different rows, or on the same
rows in a different key, provides alternative fingering (on a 5-row
instrument there are always a total of 3 fingerings available),
and that may feel a lot better.
Generally, button patterns that are "convex" (middle fingers reaching
farther from the wrist) feel better than "concave" patterns (middle
fingers needing to press buttons that are closer to the wrist).
I also found that after playing the CBA for a few years, some fingerings
that felt really akward at first (leading me to write notes on some
sheets to play them on alternative rows), now feel much easier.
BTW, the variant of the C-system that has the C in the third row (and
other possible variants) would feel basically the same to the player,
since, assuming you play on 3 rows at a time, the location of the
rows not-used at the time is irrelevant. That said, I find that I
learn most tunes in the first 3 rows, since it's the "default" choice,
and also means I'd be able to play the same tune in the same key in
the same fingering on my 3-row CBA. If somebody handed me a 3-row box
that has C in the third row (instead of the first) I would not be able
to play it well while playing memorized tunes in their standard keys.
- Moshe
*) "never let mere facts stand in the way of a good theory" :-)
**) old joke from the cold war days: what's the difference between
capitalism
and communism? In capitalism one man exploits another. In communism it is
exactly the opposite. :-)
gazzapt
Not being an expert on either system , i am not really qualified to
give advice. What I would say though, is it depends really on what
type of music you want to play. B system makes more sense for
classical music as it is the same on both hands. C must be better for
the likes of French musette as most of the players in France play that
system.
My son ( also gary, aged 12) was recently accepted to a specialist
music academy where music is the number one subject , after a rigorous
entry exam ( he's the first accordionist to be accepted for many, many
years ) . His teacher has already asked that he change from PA to the
B system and he doesn't even start till june. His teacher is Djorde
Gajic who is a former CMA world champion and he plays Piano but knows
its limitations in classical music ( even though hearing him play, you
wouldn't believe it! )
My advice is as someone said before.....try both systems and then decide .
Regards
Gary Blair (Scotland)
P.S. You could always go for the Kravtsov system !
> Really-From: Moshe Braner <mbraner@h...>
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Niek van Uden
odd names of systems I had never heard of. Are there people who play
'uncommon' instruments. I noticed the 'Blake System' and 'Kravtstov' system,
I'm unfamiliar with both of them and would like to know if anyone can tell
me more about it. Thanks in advance
Niek van Uden (The Netherlands)
"gazzapt" <gary....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:c80f2...@eGroups.com...
gazzapt
Hi Niek
There is a photo and brief description of the Kravtsov keyboard
on my web page ( Http:\\come.to/garyblair) I have owned one for around
two years and think it is an excellent system. Having said that, I
have not spent very much time getting to know mine as I am very busy
with gigs . I might even be selling it in the near future on ebay but
haven't quite made up my mind
For what it is worth, we in the UK generally refer to the diatonic
accordions as '' button box''
Regards
Gary Blair (Scotland)
scussing the pros and cons of button boxes, I noticed some
> odd names of systems I had never heard of. Are there people who play
> 'uncommon' instruments. I noticed the 'Blake System' and 'Kravtstov'
system,
> I'm unfamiliar with both of them and would like to know if anyone
can tell
> me more about it. Thanks in advance
>
> Niek van Uden (The Netherlands)
>
> "gazzapt" <gary.blair@n...> wrote in message
> news:c80f20+1456@e...
Niek van Uden
that one day, Mogens Ellegaard(C-griff), Friedrich Lips (B-grips) and Joseph
Macerollo(piano), all famous for their skill on their particular system, had
a conference on trying to choose a standard: it came down to that everyone
of them chose his own system above the others, so nothing was decided and we
still have all the bloody different systems.
There's still quite a difference between C and B system. Place your hands on
your stomach, fingertips down as if playing, elbows wide. Notice that the
four main fingers (not the thumb) kind of 'line up', forming a line from the
centre of you stomach diagonally down towards your legs. This line is
equivalent to the chromatic lines of B-griff, somehow proving that this is
more natural(?!). On the hand, now look again to your hands, the middle
three fingers stand above the thumb and little finger. Notice that when
playing chords, this comes more close to the C-griff way of playing, where e
and g are one line of buttons higher than c, whereas B-griff, has e and g in
the line below c (or two lines up if you have five rows, but your middle
three fingers aren't that high above the thumb).
Above paragraph still doesn't prove for any system having the advantage, but
I think it's somehow logical that the French, who play mainly tonal music
with lots of broken chords, play mainly C-griff, whereas the Russians who
mainly play modern classical music or virtuoso melodic lines, play B-griff.
On the notion of MIII: M stands for Manual. Your righthand keybaord is
referred to as MI, the standard/stradella bass buttons are MII. In the time
where convertor systems didn't exist, you had three rows of buttons above
you normal bass system, comparable to the first three rows of a CBA(most of
the time C-griff). This was called MIII: you had three different manuals.
Now most people who play a freebass instrument have a convertor system,
meaning you can change you normal bass system into freebass system, but they
still use the term MIII to point out that you have to use the other bass
system. Other terms are Baritone Bass(B.B. as opposite to S.B.) or Free
Bass.
Niek van Uden
"Moshe Braner" <mbr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:opr7x256...@news.state.vt.us...
Jean-Claude
> Not being an expert on either system , i am not really qualified to
> give advice. What I would say though, is it depends really on what
> type of music you want to play. B system makes more sense for
> classical music as it is the same on both hands. C must be better for
> the likes of French musette as most of the players in France play that
> system.
NO, definitively not!
Classical is NOT the prefered type of music for B-system and C-System
is NOT better for French musette.
Fact is B-System originated in Eastern Europe and the Russians are
able to play classical as well as Folk and Jazz on their B-System
Bayans.
By the way, one of the best European Jazz accordionist was Johhny
Meyer from Holland and he used to play on CBA B-System!
Fact is C-System originated in Western Europe (popular in Italy,
France, Switerland, Germany and Sweden). Germany is half/half
C/B-System , as well as Austria (C-Sytem in the West and B-System in
the East.) Holland is mainly B-System as well as in the UK. Belgium is
C-System with C in the second row (and special bass not stradella
like) and Finland is C-System with C in the third row. Everything is
possible!
The French do play Musette as well as Classical and Jazz on their CBA
C-System!
B-System = Eastern Europe => litterature, teachers & methods are
availlable in Russia, Polish, etc.
C-System = Western Europe => literature, teachers & methods are
availlable in french, italian, german, english...
Peter Soave (USA) is one of most respected and talented CBA C-System
(and PA) accordionist in the world and he can play all kind of music
on his bayan (classical, tango, jazz, musette...)
Regards,
JC
Jean-Claude
> What is MIII?
MIII (Germany, Switzerland) = Freebass (USA) = basses chromatiques (France)
Regards,
JC
Jean-Claude
> What is MIII?
MIII (Germany) = Freebass (USA) = basses chromatiques (France) =
basses baryton (Switzerland)
Regards,
JC
John`s
tangos - do not have any problems.
Again, It does not matter what system do you play as long as you are
comfortable with it.
To distinguish the two systems I would say this:
B-system ,- technically
C-system ,- melodically
Best regards,
John
"Jean-Claude" <pcons...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
news:bbd7c208.04051...@posting.google.com...
Werner Partner
> Werner Partner <kai...@sonoptikon.de> wrote in message news:<bdobn1x...@idefix.dom>...
>
>>allen watsky schrieb:
>>
>>>I started with a C griff on the recomendation of a local instructor, but
>>>switched to B because my favorite player plays B system. When I got my B
>>>griff I found that its layout was more agreeable to me and "somehow" seemed
>>>to sound like the music I wanted to play. So I guess I am a nonscientific
>>>endorcement for the B system. Most everyone plays C griff. I play Eastern
>>>European folk music, Klezmer and etc. So the earliest recordings of that
>>>music were made with the B griff. If I listen to the recordings and try to
>>>play along I find it "easy" to find those patterns on my instrument. It just
>>>feals good. So there it is, Good Luck !
>>
>>You write it - it's just a matter of "how you like it". If you play MIII
>>you should take C griff because normally MIII-Manuals are made in C-griff.
>>
>>Finnish players usually use C griff but with C in third row. Russian
>>players usually use B griff. In Germany it's half and half - little bit
>>more C griff. The reason is that most (younger) Button players use MIII,
>>too, and so it's C griff.
>>
>>But funny is: You write C griff and not C grip or grasp or grab or
>>fingering. A German word found it's way ;-)
>>
>>Werner
>
>
> Werner:
>
> Was meinen Sie mit das Wort "MIII"? Bitte, antworten Sie auf
> Englisch. Mein Deutsch ist sehr schlect. hey, you got so excited about
> "griff" i thought i would really try to make your day. sorry!
It's not _so_ bad ;-)
It was written already: Freebass
regards
Werner Partner
> What is MIII?
Melody-Bass, there are Instruments where the left hand side is build
like the button right hand side. It is good for classicel and baroque
playing.
Then there are convertor accordeons: You can switch between standard and
melody bass.
Werner Partner
> "J. Coon" <lite...@tir.com> wrote in message news:<40A35A19...@tir.com>...
>
>
>>What is MIII?
>
>
> MIII (Germany, Switzerland) = Freebass (USA) = basses chromatiques (France)
Oh yes: Freebass, that's the word!
regards
Werner Partner
> This discussion will probably last until Apocalyps... I have heard the tale
> that one day, Mogens Ellegaard(C-griff), Friedrich Lips (B-grips) and Joseph
> Macerollo(piano), all famous for their skill on their particular system, had
> a conference on trying to choose a standard: it came down to that everyone
> of them chose his own system above the others, so nothing was decided and we
> still have all the bloody different systems.
Reading all the postings (and there are very good arguments within) I
came to followong conclusion:
It's like always in life: There are two possibilities to decide and you
stand in the middle. Once you have to decide to go to the left or to the
right. In B or C System it's so that both systems are the same but mirrored.
What depends it from what system you use?
Your friend plays B.
Someone sells an accordian which has C.
You play freebass an this is C System.
Your teachers plays B.
...
and so on.
One example:
A young girl took lessions by me. Once she wanted to learn buttons. I
got a C system accordion for her (see above). Then she saw an old Bugari
to be sold, it costed about 1500 $. I said to the mother: Buy it!
The girl said: "I want to have this accordion". Mother said, "but I seem
to rememeber that the seller said that it is B". Girl said: "So I will
change".
At the end it was C with old Italian system (C in second row). The girl
was happy, changeg technic little bit and is still going strong playing
accordion.
regards
Werner
P.S.: In Finland all 5 years there is beginning the old duscussion:
"Shouldn't we change our old Finnish system (C with c in third row) to
normal C system". In German language we say "Da fliegen die Fetzen" (who
can translate this?)
J. Coon
use...@d-and-d.com wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: "Niek van Uden" <n.j.o....@uvt.nl>
>
> On the notion of MIII: M stands for Manual. Your righthand keybaord is
> referred to as MI, the standard/stradella bass buttons are MII. In the time
> where convertor systems didn't exist, you had three rows of buttons above
> you normal bass system, comparable to the first three rows of a CBA(most of
> the time C-griff). This was called MIII: you had three different manuals.
> Now most people who play a freebass instrument have a convertor system,
> meaning you can change you normal bass system into freebass system, but they
> still use the term MIII to point out that you have to use the other bass
> system. Other terms are Baritone Bass(B.B. as opposite to S.B.) or Free
> Bass.
>
> Niek van Uden
I guess manual means keyboard as opposed to not automatic. Then the I,
II and III stand for the roman numeral for the number of keyboards?
Niek van Uden
apparently not in English. The I, II and III are indeed roman numeral
notation, but they refer to a particular keyboard each, not the number of
keyboards. So MI refers to your righthand keyboard (see it as the 'first
keyboard'), MII to your standard bass (is this the correct name for the
chord basses in English?) keyboard, MIII to the freebass system, wether it
is via convertor or a separate keyboard.
Niek van Uden
"J. Coon" <lite...@tir.com> wrote in message
news:40A4B6ED...@tir.com...
Theodore Kloba
> Now that we're discussing the pros and cons of button boxes, I noticed some
> odd names of systems I had never heard of. Are there people who play
> 'uncommon' instruments. I noticed the 'Blake System' and 'Kravtstov' system,
> I'm unfamiliar with both of them and would like to know if anyone can tell
> me more about it. Thanks in advance
'Blake System' refers to the system described in:
Blake, Hugh. "The Blake System: Towards a Standard Diatonic System for
Concertinas and Accordions," unpublished essay.
About two years ago I corresponded with Hugh Blake and posted a summary
of his system on this newsgroup, which is archived here:
--
Theodore M. Kloba * hey...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/
Crs smitty
>This discussion will probably last until Apocalyps... I have heard the tale
>that one day, Mogens Ellegaard(C-griff), Friedrich Lips (B-grips) and Joseph
>Macerollo(piano), all famous for their skill on their particular system, had
>a conference on trying to choose a standard: it came down to that everyone
>of them chose his own system above the others, so nothing was decided and we
>still have all the bloody different systems.
>
>There's still quite a difference between C and B system. Place your hands on
>your stomach, fingertips down as if playing, elbows wide. Notice that the
>four main fingers (not the thumb) kind of 'line up', forming a line from the
>centre of you stomach diagonally down towards your legs. This line is
>equivalent to the chromatic lines of B-griff, somehow proving that this is
>more natural(?!). On the hand, now look again to your hands, the middle
>three fingers stand above the thumb and little finger. Notice that when
>playing chords, this comes more close to the C-griff way of playing, where e
>and g are one line of buttons higher than c, whereas B-griff, has e and g in
>the line below c (or two lines up if you have five rows, but your middle
>three fingers aren't that high above the thumb).
>
The way I see it is from the standpoint of running up the chromatic scale -- B
system the first finger naturally reaches to the furthest inside row of buttons
and fingers two and three more naturally follow the downward angle necessary to
go up the scale. HOWEVER, when using the thumb on the keyboard it naturally
reaches the outer row the best and fingers one and two more naturally follow
the angle downward necessary to go up the scale. Actually I find the B system
to require more bending of the wrist but it in a direction (downward) that also
is more natural than bending upward as is sometimes necessary in C griff! On
the other hand (no pun intended) consider a major chord (including the octave)
and the fingers naturally fit a C griff better as fingers two and three are
longer than the others and reach to the inside row for the third and fifth very
naturally. In B griff the two longer fingers have to reach back to the outside
row while the shorter fingers have to reach up to the next row!
I really see no difference IF you play both B and C griff using the thumb, but
if you do not use the thumb then B griff is easier or more comfortable. Of
course temper all this with the fact that I play B griff mostly and am not as
familiar with the C system!
Just more pondering of chromatic systems in the wilderness!!
Ciao! for now!
Ron Smith, Montana Squeezer
Richard Morse
> There is a photo and brief description of the Kravtsov keyboard
> on my web page ( Http:\\come.to/garyblair)
The correct URL for that page is http://come.to/garyblair which doesn't
have information about the Kravtsov system - you have to dig deeper into
that site to page http://come.to/garyblair for that.
-- Rich --
Ike Milligan
major keys. Minor key fingering is easier in B Griff I'm told because the
middle finger is longer than the other fingers.
Niek van Uden
The direct URL is
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GARYBLAIR/photos.htm
It's quite a ... how shall I put it... different system than I'm playing...
would like to try it of course, but in the future... first have to master my
C-griff, it's hard enough already. What really is the advantage of Kravtsov?
You can play lines diagonally over your keyboard?
Niek van Uden
"Richard Morse" <r-m...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40A6741C...@comcast.net...
Richard Morse
> I found it... thanks Rich...
> The direct URL is
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GARYBLAIR/photos.htm
I'm glad you did - I had inadvertently pasted the same URL in twice when
I had meant to paste the one above in....
> It's quite a ... how shall I put it... different system than I'm playing...
> would like to try it of course, but in the future... first have to master my
> C-griff, it's hard enough already. What really is the advantage of Kravtsov?
> You can play lines diagonally over your keyboard?
I don't play Kravtsov, but you can get some information on it's "feel"
compared with the PA and CBAs at http://www.accordionpage.com/treble.html.
I play Hayden system though my box has less duplicated accidentals which
would enable one to play in every key identically. A full sea of buttons
would be like:
Higher notes this end
Db Eb F G A B
Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#
Db Eb F G A B C# D#
Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#
Db Eb F G A B C# D#
Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#
F G A B C# D#
Lower notes this end
Of course, this "sea of buttons" can be extended in any direction for
more range and key flexibility.
The thing I like about this system is that the hand DOESN'T travel along
the rows but inwards (or up/down as in this diagram) for the scales. I
usually just use my fingers for the 3-buttons-in-a-row then
4-buttons-in-a-row scale and use my thumb mainly for 7th, diminished and
augmented chords as well as adding the additional octave below note.
I find that the fingering is much easier than CBA (B or C) as there is
no fingering cross-over problems. The keyboard is also more compact
which would make for a smaller accordion or very well suited for
concertina. It would make an awesome piano or organ keyboard as well and
when you extend the "sea" of buttons to the sides you wind up with
"white" keys again but an octave above (if to the right and an octave
below if extended to the left) which allows one to play in the octave of
choice with either hand (or same octave like a double manual organ).
One of the very interesting things about this system is that it seems to
be ideally set up for western music in that you'll notice that the 1, 4,
5 notes are adjacent making the I, IV, V chords all adjacent and
incredibly compact. Note that the diagonals slant up to the right in
5ths and up to the left in 4ths... whole tones along the line of
buttons, octaves over each other. Even the diminished and augmented
chords are very simple and regular patterns.
This also works well for a bass arrangement too, and as most pieces are
played "vertically" (rather than along the rows) it's a lot easier to
play than typical freebass models are.
Unfortunately this is a very rare system. It was originally invented
(discovered?) by kaspar Wicki 1896 and didn't seem to have caught on. It
was independently developed by Brian Hayden about 1980 and has been
applied mostly toward concertinas though has made it's way into some
accordions and pianos.
-- Rich --
gazzapt
> Really-From: pconsulting@b... (Jean-Claude)
> > Not being an expert on either system , i am not really qualified to
> > give advice. What I would say though, is it depends really on what
> > type of music you want to play. B system makes more sense for
> > classical music as it is the same on both hands. C must be better for
> > the likes of French musette as most of the players in France play that
> > system.
>
> NO, definitively not!
> Classical is NOT the prefered type of music for B-system and C-System
> is NOT better for French musette.
>
> Fact is B-System originated in Eastern Europe and the Russians are
> able to play classical as well as Folk and Jazz on their B-System
> Bayans.
> By the way, one of the best European Jazz accordionist was Johhny
> Meyer from Holland and he used to play on CBA B-System!>>>>
I didn't say it was '' prefered'' I said it makes more sense having
both keyboards the same. Why learn two different systems ?
We will agree to disagree then Jean Claude. Why is it that 90 percent
of the competitiors in classical competitions ( cma and Coupe mondial)
play B system in the classical sections?
How cna you sya that the C system is not the prefered system yet 80 or
90 percent of the musette players use it? Sounds like th eprefered
system to me.
A lot of the russians do play folks music but usually on the 3 row
bayan and not the big classical beasts .
I don't see where Johnny Meijer comes into the debate. If we are
talking Jazz then the PA would be my choice. There are better Pa jazz
players around today that are better than Johnny. ( Zanchini,
rastelli , ruggieri etc)
< Fact is C-System originated in Western Europe (popular in Italy,
> France, Switerland, Germany and Sweden). Germany is half/half
> C/B-System , as well as Austria (C-Sytem in the West and B-System in
> the East.) Holland is mainly B-System as well as in the UK. Belgium
is>>>>
Fact is the UK is 50/50 The likes of Owen Murray at the RAM in
London favours the C system ( even though most of his pupils at this
time, play B !) John Leslie and the likes favour B. Many of the
players who switched 10 or 15 years ago had no idea there were two
systems and took what ever the accordion shops had at the time.
Germany is 50/50 due to the likes of Moser favouring the C system
whilst others favouring B system ( likes of Puchnowski and Tomitch)
Spain is all B sytem due to Lips and the San sebastian conservatoire
> C-System with C in the second row (and special bass not stradella
> like) and Finland is C-System with C in the third row. Everything is
> possible!
> The French do play Musette as well as Classical and Jazz on their CBA
> C-System!>>>>
Yes and the FRENCH also play B system too! ( Max Bonnay, Fabiano,
Deschamps etc etc) Even the great Jacques mornet ( whom i had the
pleasure of meeting a couple of weeks ago at the Uk championships)
promotes the B system for classical music, hence the reason he has
Roman Bjanov and other Russians teaching for him.
> Peter Soave (USA) is one of most respected and talented CBA C-System
> (and PA) accordionist in the world and he can play all kind of music
> on his bayan (classical, tango, jazz, musette...)
>
> Regards,
> JC
Yes, but he also borrows Jean Louis Notons accordion when he plays
musette to get the authentic sound.
I don't really knwo where this is going, but I will stand by my last
statement which was '' try them both THEN decide .
Salut
Gary Blair (Scotland)
Jean-Claude
Salut Gary
Don't take it personnaly!
I just wanted to make the point that both B & C systems originated in
different part of the world & are valid for any kind of music!
What do you mean both keyboards are the same on B-system?
B-system bayan (free bass) is like a piano cutted & folded in the
middle where lowest tones are on the bottom LH & highest tones are on
the bottom RH. Russia has a long B-system bayan classical tradition
(more litteratur, more teachers & more students to win classical
competitions.
C-system bayan (free bass) do have relative lowest tone on the LH & RH
top of the accordion (parallel / miror layout).
Saying one system is better as the other is like saying car driving on
the left side (like you) is better as car driving on the right side
(like me). Fact is nobody cares except when we drive cross over :))
As you write it yourself, if B system is getting more popular now in
western europe is ONLY because russsian bayanist are arriving more &
more to the western world after Berlin Wall fall. If your son has a
russian teacher now, then chances are that he will recommand B system.
Some of the french original C-players you mentioned and suposedly now
playing B-system did also study at Gnessin Academy in Moscow.
And if you want to speak about jazz accordion, you forgot to mention
Marcel Azzola, Richard Galliano, Alain Musichini, Ludovic Beier,
Marcel Loeffler, Jean-Louis Matinier, Jean-Marc Berthoumieux, David
Venituci as well as many other fine jazz accordionists who plays CBA
on C-system!
And not to forget the late Tony Murena, Gus Viseur, Joss Baselli & Jo
Privat (all CBA C-system) who did not only played "the authentic
french sound" but were also real jazz musicians!
Is jazz accordion limited to PA only in your ears?
Keep squeezing and
Best Regards,
JC
antonista
> > > Not being an expert on either system , i am not really qualified to
> > > give advice. What I would say though, is it depends really on what
> > > type of music you want to play. B system makes more sense for
> > > classical music as it is the same on both hands. C must be better for
> > > the likes of French musette as most of the players in France play that
> > > system.
> >
> > NO, definitively not!
> > Classical is NOT the prefered type of music for B-system and C-System
> > is NOT better for French musette.
> >
> > Fact is B-System originated in Eastern Europe and the Russians are
> > able to play classical as well as Folk and Jazz on their B-System
> > Bayans.
> > By the way, one of the best European Jazz accordionist was Johhny
> > Meyer from Holland and he used to play on CBA B-System!>>>>
>
thanks
Moshe Braner
On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:20:52 +0200, Niek van Uden <n.j.o....@uvt.nl>
wrote:
> There's still quite a difference between C and B system.
> Place your hands on your stomach, fingertips down as if
> playing, elbows wide. Notice that the four main fingers
> (not the thumb) kind of 'line up', forming a line from
> the centre of you stomach diagonally down towards your legs.
> This line is equivalent to the chromatic lines of B-griff,
> somehow proving that this is more natural(?!).
But, real music is not made of chromatic runs, and, when they
do appear, they are just as likely to run off the end of the
3-row run, requiring jumping back to the first row. Also,
that same "natural" diagonal row is a scale of whole notes in
the C-griff, and that is at least as much needed in real music...
Also, when playing near the bass end of the treble side, i.e.,
close to the chin, the natural twist of the hand is the other
way anyway... Anyway, after some practice with the C-griff,
I don't find it hard at all to play chromatic runs, even if I
do need to twist the wrist a bit sometimes. I think of the
hand movements on the CBA as 3-dimensional, not quasi-2-dimensional
as on the piano keyboard. I use the thumb, thus the hand is
free to twist as needed.
Niek also wrote:
> On the hand, now look again to your hands, the middle
> three fingers stand above the thumb and little finger.
> Notice that when playing chords, this comes more close
> to the C-griff way of playing, where e and g are one line
> of buttons higher than c, whereas B-griff, ...
That only holds for some chords, not others. For example, if
you are playing in the first 3 rows (in C-griff), the C and G
(major) chords have that shape, but the F chord has the opposite
shape. And so on. You just get used to all the shapes,
and there are only a few, unlike on the piano keyboard...
Regarding the claim in another posting that B-system is better for
playing in minor keys: from my experience, playing mostly in minor
keys on the C-system, that is no problem at all. Again, akward
fingering appears in some cases, in either system, but can be
resolved by switching keys or rows.
Some other postings in this thread mentioned the issue of the
use (or non-use) of the thumb. Is it true that the traditional
Russian bayan playing style is not using the thumb? Why?
Since I started on piano and piano-accordion, I find the 5-finger
"flying hand" playing style natural, and wouldn't want to
unnecessarily skip using 20% of the RH fingers! Another playing-style
issue: play on 3 rows at a time, or use 4 or more rows at once?
I was told to use 3 rows at a time, and that works for me.
One advantage is that I can use smaller instruments (3 or 4 rows)
when needed. Another is that I can transpose to any key without
changing fingering (on a 5-row instrument). But on the other
hand the 3-rows method means that some phrases are more difficult.
- Moshe
Steven J. Duray
> Hi folks. I am new to the accordion, and after a month of the piano
> accordion, have switched over to the chromatic. Does anybody recommend
> either the C system or the B system? I mainly would like to play
> polka, german, and swissy styles.
>
> Thanks for your help!
When it comes down to the line on making a decision, I am sure that
you will not go wrong picking one system over the other. Both systems
offer configurations that are easier than the piano keyboard.
Good luck!
Steven J. Duray
Jean-Claude
> > Could someone explain what that means to me please?
Hello Antonista,
If you want to play CBA with LH stradella/standard bass only, then the
CBA B-system and C-system do have their own advantage/disadvantage
regarding the ergonomics of the RH (twist of the wrist, etc.) Both B &
C systems allows to play any kind of music.
If you wants to play CBA with LH free bass, then we have 2 different
approaches for the LH and this is where the CBA B/C systems
controversy starts.
#1) The pianistic/continuous/russian approach where the accordion is
considered like a piano (lowest to highest tones continuously from
left to right). Those free bass CBA accordions do have LH lowest to
highest tones upward and RH lowest to highest tones downward. There is
usualy some notes overlap between the LH & RH depending on the
switches selected. Those free bass CBA are mostly B system but are
also availlable in C system. The layout of the LH & RH keyboard is the
same, but like on the piano, the fingering LH / RH is different for
the same chord.
#2) The split/western approach where the LH & RH keyboard are
parallel/mirrored. Those free bass CBA do have RH lowest to highest
tones downward and LH lowest to highest tones downward also
(parallel/mirror). There is also some notes overlap between the LH &
RH depending on the switches selected. Those free bass CBA are mostly
C system but are also availlable in B system. The layout of the LH &
RH keyboards are mirrored and unlike on the piano, the fingering LH /
RH is equal for the same chord.
So if you already plays the piano for a long time and will continue to
do so, then #1) continuous approach is probably better (B or C
system).
If you never played & do not want to play the piano also, then #2)
split approach is probably better (C or B system).
Regards,
JC
Luke O'Malley
sdu...@bisco.com (Steven J. Duray) said:
-->
-->anto...@yahoo.com (antonista) wrote in message
-->news:<cfe34a70.04051...@posting.google.com>...
-->> Hi folks. I am new to the accordion, and after a month of the
-->piano
-->> accordion, have switched over to the chromatic. Does anybody
-->recommend
-->> either the C system or the B system? I mainly would like to play
-->> polka, german, and swissy styles.
-->>
-->> Thanks for your help!
-->
-->When it comes down to the line on making a decision, I am sure
-->that
-->you will not go wrong picking one system over the other. Both
-->systems
-->offer configurations that are easier than the piano keyboard.
-->
-->Good luck!
-->
-->Steven J. Duray
-->
-->
Wise decision.
I play a C system. I have found that most of the literature
available is for the C-system. (The Russians play a B-system, the
French, Italians, etc. all play the C-system) There are advantages
to both - as best I can determine.
The greatest frustration I found was that it is near impossible to
find two books that agree on even how to finger scales! Some books
are for four-finger technique (French) and most are now for
five-finger technique (Italian, German, etc.)
If I can help in any way, contact me.
Luke
--
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| O || |lukeo...@optonline.net || |
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antonista
Thanks to all who posted here with insight on either system. I have
been messing around with a B griff for the last few weeks, and
eventually learned to really like it. I then swapped it out last night
for a C griff, and found that in 45 minutes was already to the point
of skill that I had gotten with the B for 3 weeks! So I think the I
have found the answer. Looks like I will be going with a C. The
instant familiarity with it, compounded with what appears to be more
popularity in the states makes the decision pretty clear.
Now i Just need to find one to buy.
Also, I am probably going to just confuse myself, but I am going to
take a lesson on the diatonic in a few weeks. Anybody have anything to
say about that?
Thanks!