Reedless boxes -- weight?
David Kastrup
With some surprise I read
<URL:http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1029&ParentId=32>.
The specified weight is 11.7kg (25lbs 13oz). For a 41/120 piano
accordion. No reeds.
I thought one of the points of the reedless was that they were not going
to break your back. What's up with that?
You can get IV/V reeds at less weight if you look carefully. Probably
not with converter, but heck, the converter in a reedless is just bits
in program memory.
--
David Kastrup
Alan Sharkis
My SEM Ciao reedless weighs 14 pounds. But the amplifiers I have to
use weigh more. This is not a problem while playing, but it can be a
problem to carry. The Roland you were looking at has built-in amps
and speakers, and they add to the weight of the instrument.
There are, as you probably can imagine, other benefits to reedless
instruments than just light weight. They usually have midi built in,
are equipped with lots of high-quality instrument sounds (including
various accordion sounds) and come with built-in effects like reverb.
In addition, the Rolands have velocity-sensitive keyboards with
aftertouch.
I still hear some traditionalists claim that reedless accordions are
not real accordions. OTOH, I feel that they can open up greater
musical possibilities.
I'm not a fan of the Rolands. The key throw, because of the
aftertouch, is a bit deep and the prices are a little steep. But they
are becoming very popular.
The SEM line, including the Ciao and their reeded instruments was
dropped by Suoni SRL last year. However, they still own and produce
instruments under the Scandalli and Paolo Soprani brand names, and
among them is a new reedless that is also wireless, but hasn't been
approved for wireless operation in the US. It weighs just a trifle
more than my Ciao, has more features, and about one hundred more
sounds than the 400 in the Ciao. Suoni is behind in showing this
instrument on their Web sites, but you can get the entire manual for
it from:
http://www.jayfoxband.com/accordions/accordions.html
and there are dealers around the world who claim to carry it.
Take care.
Alan
David Kastrup
> Hello David,
>
> My SEM Ciao reedless weighs 14 pounds. But the amplifiers I have to
> use weigh more. This is not a problem while playing, but it can be a
> problem to carry. The Roland you were looking at has built-in amps
> and speakers, and they add to the weight of the instrument.
I've not seen information on the web page how easy it is to remove them.
They are sort of pointless if you are going to play via a PA anyway.
> There are, as you probably can imagine, other benefits to reedless
> instruments than just light weight. They usually have midi built in,
> are equipped with lots of high-quality instrument sounds (including
> various accordion sounds) and come with built-in effects like reverb.
It would seem to make more sense to place the "high-quality instrument
sounds and effects" and most other stuff outside of the instrument as
there is nothing gained by carrying that around.
> In addition, the Rolands have velocity-sensitive keyboards with
> aftertouch.
For some Piazzolla I am practising, I am currently working on fading out
chords while sustaining bass notes. The score sustains both, but my
teacher is quite right that this clobbers the treble lines a bit too
much. So the trick is to sound the chords, but fade them out again so
smoothly that their harmonic function lingers on in the listener's mind
without interruption.
Velocity sensitivity can be implemented with two trigger points. A
controlled fade out requires more than that (in particular since it
requires moving together acoustical feedback), and I have my doubts that
the circuitry employed here offers that.
> I still hear some traditionalists claim that reedless accordions are
> not real accordions.
They aren't, like electronic pianos are not real pianos. With an
accordion, that's more of a difference in a way since it stops playing
after a while if you have no electricity around. That's not as much a
criterion for pianos, since the likelihood of dragging a real piano to a
place without electricity is decidedly smaller than with an accordion.
More importantly, you need different service personnel.
> OTOH, I feel that they can open up greater musical possibilities.
They can also close off intricate musical details. I have an excellent
acoustic accordion (yes it weighs more than the Roland), and the one
thing I realize in my occasional accordion lessons is that the real
potential of the instrument lies in what you can do with it in the slow
notes.
I do have to admit that I appreciate a musical possibility built into
its mechanics that is pretty much only available with Midi accordions:
being able to choose the location of your octave break in the chord
section. There are definitely pieces where this comes in handy.
> The SEM line, including the Ciao and their reeded instruments was
> dropped by Suoni SRL last year. However, they still own and produce
> instruments under the Scandalli and Paolo Soprani brand names, and
> among them is a new reedless that is also wireless, but hasn't been
> approved for wireless operation in the US. It weighs just a trifle
> more than my Ciao, has more features, and about one hundred more
> sounds than the 400 in the Ciao. Suoni is behind in showing this
> instrument on their Web sites, but you can get the entire manual for
> it from:
>
> http://www.jayfoxband.com/accordions/accordions.html
>
> and there are dealers around the world who claim to carry it.
500 instead of 400 sounds is not really a criterion for me. Most of the
really serious purchasers of electronic pianos employ rarely more than a
single sound.
--
David Kastrup
ginog...@gmail.com
Hello everyone, its been a while since I have been on this message
board. The Yahoo board is just to Giant. As for the reedless
accordion. I played a 5 row reedless accordion here at the Gabbannelli
shop in Houston, Texas for the first time. I think the reedless box
was much heavier than my 5 row box. They are still trying to get rid
of it for only 1,400 american dollars. I didnt like the box because I
couldnt get the bellows to move.
David Kastrup
> On Sep 21, 10:37�am, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Alan Sharkis <cartilaginous_f...@optonline.net> writes:
>> > Hello David,
>>
>> > My SEM Ciao reedless weighs 14 pounds. But the amplifiers I have to
>> > use weigh more. �This is not a problem while playing, but it can be a
>> > problem to carry. �The Roland you were looking at has built-in amps
>> > and speakers, and they add to the weight of the instrument.
>>
>> I've not seen information on the web page how easy it is to remove them.
>> They are sort of pointless if you are going to play via a PA anyway.
>
> Hello everyone, its been a while since I have been on this message
> board.
Uh, it is a good idea to trim what you are replying to. No sense
leaving in 400 lines of original posting: if somebody wants to get all
the context instead of just the relevant context you leave after
trimming, he can easily use his newsreader for that.
> The Yahoo board is just to Giant. As for the reedless accordion. I
> played a 5 row reedless accordion here at the Gabbannelli shop in
> Houston, Texas for the first time. I think the reedless box was much
> heavier than my 5 row box. They are still trying to get rid of it for
> only 1,400 american dollars. I didnt like the box because I couldnt
> get the bellows to move.
There is supposed to be an adjustable air valve for that, at least with
newer ones. The old Hohner Electravox (one would not call them
"reedless accordion" since they rather sound like a vintage electronic
organ) does not have real bellows: there is a volume control reacting to
how wide you bend it open.
Now that is really sick and inconvenient, to boot. I don't think that
other manufacturers copied that nonsense.
--
David Kastrup
Accordion Noir
> "reedless accordion" since they rather sound like a vintage electronic
> organ) does not have real bellows: there is a volume control reacting to
> how wide you bend it open.
>
> Now that is really sick and inconvenient, to boot. I don't think that
> other manufacturers copied that nonsense.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
That's fabulous. I never heard of that. I'm trying to picture how it
would work, certainly wouldn't be intuitive if you played accordion.
All part of the big failure of the accordion's adaption to electric
music. We're still trying to figure that one out.
David Kastrup
>>The old Hohner Electravox (one would not call them
>> "reedless accordion" since they rather sound like a vintage electronic
>> organ) does not have real bellows: there is a volume control reacting to
>> how wide you bend it open.
>>
>> Now that is really sick and inconvenient, to boot. �I don't think that
>> other manufacturers copied that nonsense.
>>
>> --
>> David Kastrup
>
> That's fabulous. I never heard of that. I'm trying to picture how it
> would work, certainly wouldn't be intuitive if you played accordion.
It is a nuisance. I had one model here and resold it. I have the
suspicion that the spring was maybe replaced and a bit too strong,the
net result being that you really needed force to pull this thing open.
Since you did not need the bellows action, those instruments were mostly
placed on an accordion stand, obliterating space and weight savings over
a keyboard. Those stands were really heavy. Even while on the stand,
you had to exert constant pull to keep it open (if it closed, the
instrument was mute). Basically it was a volume pedal inside of the
accordion, just more inconvenient.
> All part of the big failure of the accordion's adaption to electric
> music. We're still trying to figure that one out.
Sort of.
--
David Kastrup
Alan Sharkis
Among the more modern reedless instruments, Roland has adjustable
bellows resistance on its smaller models (FR-3, 3x, 2, and 1. I don't
know about the FR-7x. About three years ago, when I tried an FR-7
(the predecessor of the FR-7x) I noticed that its bellows were quite
stiff, but delivered lots of volume for little effort. So, somebody
who's used to an acoustic accordion would have an adjustment period to
look forward to in terms of bellows movement if they wanted to play
one of the larger Rolands.
Anything made by Suoni (the SEM Ciao or the Paolo Soprani EWA) usually
has bellows that are a bit stiff when new, but break in rather
quickly, just as an acoustic accordion might. Again, a little air
goes a long way, which can mean long phrases with no change in bellows
direction. I consider that an advantage for a piano-accordion or CBA
player.
But Gino, as I remember, you play diatonic accordions and I'm familiar
with piano-accordions, although the models I referred to above have
counterparts in CBAs. If that's the case, you might want to look into
John's Accordion Service in Canada, because he's selling (or, at least
advertising) a reedless diatonic.
Take care.
Alan
Alan Sharkis
I just checked. The Roland FR-7x does have a bellows resistance
regulator wheel that surrounds the air release buttion, just like all
the other newer models.
Take care.
Alan