Chemnitzer for tangos??
sid
it sound like hell?
sid
whatsanike
"sid" <sylve...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d6cceb6b-c513-455b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Is it possible to play tangos well on a chemnitzer concertina, or will
> it sound like hell?
>
> sid
Are these mutually exclusive? either/or, or and/or?
sid
> "sid" <sylveste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Well, it seems tangos are usually played on a bandoneón. I know a
chemnitzer is a close relative of the bandoneón. If I played tango
music on the chem. would it sound funny because of the natural timbre
of the instrument, or would it be just fine? And is the button
arrangement for the bandoneón specifically arranged to facilitate the
playing of tangos?
Besides fingering, what separates a chemnitzer from a bandoneón?
sid
David Kastrup
> On Aug 29, 7:53 am, "whatsanike" <accordion...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> "sid" <sylveste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:d6cceb6b-c513-455b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Is it possible to play tangos well on a chemnitzer concertina, or
>> > will it sound like hell?
>>
>> Are these mutually exclusive? either/or, or and/or?
>
> Well, it seems tangos are usually played on a bandoneón. I know a
> chemnitzer is a close relative of the bandoneón.
With regard to the sound, I should think so. Chemnitzers may tend to be
somewhat smaller than full-grown bandoneons.
> If I played tango music on the chem. would it sound funny because of
> the natural timbre of the instrument, or would it be just fine?
I don't think that this should be much of a problem.
> And is the button arrangement for the bandoneón specifically arranged
> to facilitate the playing of tangos?
No. The bandoneon was developed in Germany, quite independent from
tango. The preferred system in Argentina is "Rheinische Lage" IIRC.
The German instruments few years later converged to the somewhat more
versatile "Einheitsbandoneon".
> Besides fingering, what separates a chemnitzer from a bandoneón?
Fingering. If you take a look at the layouts and how people play it,
the Chemnitzer usually has three distinct rows on both sides, whereas
the bandoneon has buttons all over the place (which is an exaggeration,
but the number and breadth of rows gives it a more uniform appearance).
Now with diatonic instruments in general, it sort of happens that close
buttons sound reasonably well when used together or after one another.
So for instrument-driven inspiration and composition, speaking the
bandoneon fluently might make it easier to give you ideas about tango
than if you use an instrument with a more logical or uniform key layout.
However, learning to speak a language fluently without accent takes
years. Piazzolla was a child prodigy on the bandoneon, and it took his
music professor and educator Nadia Boulanger years to wrestle this piece
of information from him and then convince him to write what amounts to
his musical poetry in the natural raw and rich language of his youth,
the tango and the bandoneon, that shone through his early scholarly work
on classical composition.
When I met her, I showed her my kilos of symphonies and sonatas. She
started to read them and suddenly came out with a horrible sentence:
“It's very well written.” And stopped, with a big period, round like
a soccer ball. After a long while, she said: “Here you are like
Stravinsky, like Bartók, like Ravel, but you know what happens? I
can't find Piazzolla in this.” And she began to investigate my
private life: what I did, what I did and did not play, if I was
single, married, or living with someone, she was like an FBI agent!
And I was very ashamed to tell her that I was a tango
musician. Finally I said, “I play in a night club.” I didn't want to
say cabaret. And she answered, “Night club, mais oui, but that is a
cabaret, isn't it?” “Yes,” I answered, and thought, “I'll hit this
woman in the head with a radio....” It wasn't easy to lie to
her. She kept asking: “You say that you are not pianist. What
instrument do you play, then?” And I didn't want to tell her that I
was a bandoneon player, because I thought, “Then she will throw me
from the fourth floor.” Finally, I confessed and she asked me to
play some bars of a tango of my own. She suddenly opened her eyes,
took my hand and told me: “You idiot, that's Piazzolla!” And I took
all the music I composed, ten years of my life, and sent it to hell
in two seconds.
--
David Kastrup
sid
Great quote!
Here's the upshot. I have a chance to get a nice chemnitzer handed
down to me, but I don't care for polka music. I do like South
American music though.
So if I buy bandonéon tango sheet music, will it be possible to play
it on the chem? I'm guessing the main limiting factors would be:
Range (will there be notes I can't play?)
Fingering (will there be chords shown that can't be reached?)
Sonority (is one box uni- and the other bi-sonoric? I don't know.)
It seems to me that concertinas are unlike other instruments with
respect to what type of music can be played easily. It's not like
playing clarinet sheet music with a trumpet (which is easy); it's a
little more complicated.
Thanks for the answers so far.
sid
David Kastrup
> Here's the upshot. I have a chance to get a nice chemnitzer handed
> down to me, but I don't care for polka music. I do like South
> American music though.
>
> So if I buy bandonéon tango sheet music, will it be possible to play
> it on the chem?
I recommend you first check whether you can actually buy bandoneon tango
sheet music. Bandoneon often used a special kind of tablature, the
"Waschleinensystem". It is quite likely that you have a hard time
getting sheet music that has not already been rearranged for piano or
other instruments.
> I'm guessing the main limiting factors would be:
>
> Range (will there be notes I can't play?)
>
> Fingering (will there be chords shown that can't be reached?)
>
> Sonority (is one box uni- and the other bi-sonoric? I don't know.)
The bandoneon is bi-sonoric. From videos I should think that if you
play in minor modes (like typical for tango) on a suitably large
bandoneon, you should have everything you need available just on draw.
That's how it looks Piazzolla plays pretty much all of the time, and I
know that this is the case for the club system harmonica as well. So I
should not be surprised if the Chemnitzer is not much different in that
respect: all of those are bisonoric.
> It seems to me that concertinas are unlike other instruments with
> respect to what type of music can be played easily. It's not like
> playing clarinet sheet music with a trumpet (which is easy); it's a
> little more complicated.
Well, with a bandoneon it is not really that complicated: basically all
is hard. The Chemnitzer might have some things that are easier.
I know that the two-row diatonic (from which a core part of the layout
has escaped to some degree to the right hand in club system, Chemnitzer
as well as bandoneon) is fine for most folk tunes. The Chemnitzer,
being an evolution of that, should do reasonably well in that area, too,
though its size may render it less nimble, in particular with regard to
fast bellow switches.
--
David Kastrup
Keith Freeman
> sheet music.
http://www.julianhasse.com.ar/shop3/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=3
I bought the Maximo Mori book.
-Keith
marino.michael
Depending on the complexity of the music the answer is maybe. The more
complex the less likely as the Bandoneon is the direct child of the
chemnitzer. I own a 38 button and it has a somewhat limit base cleft
available. Niether instrument was created for folk music as is being
put forth by many people these days. Herr band took the Chemnitzer and
instrument of Herr Ulig and extended it's range. There is
documentation of discussions between the different producers of the
instruments during the early years and on agreement of keyboard layout
for different sets. The Tango was written (if you can say that,
knowing where the music came from) for the Bandoneon.
So the answer is again maybe, Depending on her tuning and a few other
small to medium problems you should be able to play some tango music
on her but not all. Also if you get a hold of 19th century European
sheet music arranged for the instrument you will find that there is
alot more than "folk" music that was written and arranged for these
instruments in their hey day.
By the way, mine is still in original tuning (which is why I am having
new plates made for her to be able to be played with modern groups)
which was mean tone temperament 1/5 with A=435. Sounds wonderful but
not with other instrument in equal temperament and A=440.
Best wishes and have fun. If you need work on her let me know, will
help as able.
Michael
David Kastrup
> On Aug 29, 2:01 am, sid <sylveste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Is it possible to play tangos well on a chemnitzer concertina, or will
>> it sound like hell?
>>
>> sid
>
> Depending on the complexity of the music the answer is maybe. The more
> complex the less likely as the Bandoneon is the direct child of the
> chemnitzer. I own a 38 button and it has a somewhat limit base cleft
> available. Niether instrument was created for folk music as is being
> put forth by many people these days. Herr band took the Chemnitzer and
> instrument of Herr Ulig and extended it's range. There is
> documentation of discussions between the different producers of the
> instruments during the early years and on agreement of keyboard layout
> for different sets. The Tango was written (if you can say that,
> knowing where the music came from) for the Bandoneon.
That's about as inaccurate as writing that musette was written for the
accordion. The tango was there before the bandoneon, and musette was
there before the accordion. They basically met as grownups, and then
fused because the instruments added something nothing else could. And
after that, they developed together.
Now the button accordion is a rather universal instrument, so the
musette evolution basically caused no need to change its playing
mechanics. Merely musette tuning developed as something conveying the
shrillness of bagpipes which it replaced.
In contrast, there was no evolution whatsoever on the bandoneon. The
instruments favored by the pros were built in the 1920s without
consideration of tango.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
David Kastrup wrote:
>
> That's about as inaccurate as writing that musette was written for the
> accordion.
except, of course, that wasn't what was written at all...
just how you re-phrased it
let's see... mmmmm 101 successe musette is now in it's 6th CD
compilation? is it pretty much all accordion?
if someone asks for a musette sound for a
commercial soundtrack what do they expect to get?
if, for the last length of time individuals have more or
less been alive continuously, the idea of musette
is inextricably defined with an Accordion tuned
more or less a certain way, then i guess it is
the practical definition of the term.
is there anyone alive who first experienced musette on
a bagpipe? or who would have that as their first
association?
on the Musette Music Books, allors... there is a
picture of an Accordion
how much musette has been written since the Accordion
has reigned as the default instrument?
just a bit?
then i suppose those songs were written for accordion,
or at least some of them... i imagine all the fast
ones with lots of little quick notes at least were
not written for bagpipe or tablesaw or wooden shoes
ciao
Ventura
does anyone have a recording of Domino on Bagpipe?
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>> That's about as inaccurate as writing that musette was written for the
>> accordion.
>
> except, of course, that wasn't what was written at all...
> just how you re-phrased it
You do an excellent job at that on my posting, too.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
whatsanike
"marino.michael" <chiro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2007719-f674-4cf2...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Michael
(IM) I surely hope you save the old plates. Radically altering an historic
instrument with differently tuned plates is sacrilege!
whatsanike
"Ventura" <acco...@att.net> wrote in message
news:8Kavk.195362$102.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
musette was the name of an organ tuning applied to accordion tuning. As
applied to accordion tuning, it became different from organ tuning, in that
it could often be faster tremolo than usually found on a reed or pipe organ.
whatsanike
"Ventura" <acco...@att.net> wrote in message
news:8Kavk.195362$102.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
I know legend says that musette was originalluy the name of bagpipes. Organs
had a musette stop with reeds or pipes tuned tremolo. I don't know which
preceded the other.
marino.michael
will be doing to them is bringing them into complete tune with the
structure that they where done with from new (meantone 1/5, A=435Hz).
According to the National center for Tango in Argentina the Tango was
written for the Bandoeon as the Early Bandoneon players could not keep
up with the tempo of the Milango music style. Also the instrument
arrived in Argentina around 1870, which is only approximately twenty
years after the instrument was first created by Herr Band.
Now getting back to the QUESTION ASKED:
Can a Chemnitzer play Tango?
The answer is again, Yes; depending on some givens. These are:
1)That the Chemnitzer is tuned in the Lange system of Octive tuning
(in which the two reeds are tuned to the octave of the note wanted and
the one above). This is due to the the fact that Herr Lange set this
up on his Chemnitzers and Bandoneons that he built and it was adopted
by many builders including Herr Band. It became the type of tuning
used in Bandoneons for Tango (why is a good question and any one who
says thay have a definitive answer should be given a nice white coat
with very long sleeves)
2)That the Chemnitzer is tuned to a key that will support the music
you wish to play (All Chemnitzers are bisonoric technically chromatic
instruments within their playing scope, but they ARE tuned to support
the cording of a specific key on many of the models, especially those
of 38 buttons)
3) Lastly that the instrument is tuned to modern pitch or that the
other instruments that will play with you are able to be tuned to its
temperment (If you wish to have the plates changed and voiced, please
contact me as I do that)(I will not retune historical plates but will
bring them into proper tune for what they where as new and have a set
of 440 plates made for you in a fingering that you wish to work with,
install, and voice them for you).
As to other statements as to whether the Bandoneon sales into South
America had any effect on instrument design? Considering that since
the Tango began in popularity in South America, that region is the
largest importer of Bandoneons in the World and at times has exceed
the demand for the instrument in Europe. You figure the math, German
instrument makers are not stupid as Herr Arnold showed quite well, as
his instruments are still prized positions in the Tango world and they
have not been built for a good number of years and anyone who builds
the instruments tries to have some connection to him.
So, I hope that answers the question in a bit more detail and puts to
rest a few other statements that have been made.
Oh, one other point, modern Bandoneons can be either bisonoric or
monosonoric as there are makers who build both styles and have done
for a good number of years. The main reason that I can see is to allow
a complete true Chromatic instrument that is capable of doing all the
cords of all the scales within a given temperament.
Michael
David Kastrup
> As to other statements as to whether the Bandoneon sales into South
> America had any effect on instrument design? Considering that since
> the Tango began in popularity in South America, that region is the
> largest importer of Bandoneons in the World and at times has exceed
> the demand for the instrument in Europe. You figure the math, German
> instrument makers are not stupid as Herr Arnold showed quite well, as
> his instruments are still prized positions in the Tango world and they
> have not been built for a good number of years and anyone who builds
> the instruments tries to have some connection to him.
<URL:http://www.bandonion-klingenthal.de/>
> Oh, one other point, modern Bandoneons can be either bisonoric or
> monosonoric as there are makers who build both styles and have done
> for a good number of years. The main reason that I can see is to allow
> a complete true Chromatic instrument that is capable of doing all the
> cords of all the scales within a given temperament.
I am somewhat sceptical: the key layout and way of playing the
traditional bandoneon look almost like a typewriter arrangement: you
don't see much hand movement.
The typical monosonoric three-row chromatic means moving the hand. Also
the old layout places harmonically close notes close, the modern layouts
notes close in scale.
I'd think that this would influence playing style and also composition.
--
David Kastrup
whatsanike
> Yes I am saving the original plates as they are and the only thing I
> will be doing to them is bringing them into complete tune with the
> structure that they where done with from new (meantone 1/5, A=435Hz).
>
I thought you said you were replacing them. I was saying save them. If you
are having them retuned, then that is the same as not saving them. You can't
radically retune the reeds and preserve their best quality. In many
instances the retuning is likely to degrade the quality very significantly
depending on how it is done and depending on the amount of change. i would
much rather get another accordion that is already tuned to the standard than
to make big changes in the tuning. An instrument with historical
significance should be preserved that way..
marino.michael
The link you provided proves my point as they produce instruments
targeted at both "traditional" and "Tango" style playing. It also to a
degree supports you position as well. It is a matter of how you look
at the instrument and how you look at it being played. An example is
that of the Anglo concertina where for a long time you had an argument
of whether it was better to play the rows (pretty much staying withing
the keys as they are laid out, this was common with 20 button models I
am told [meaning I have NO written evidence that proves this point,
though there seems to be alot of information that supports it], while
30 button models tended to be played in th "Irish" style which is
across the rows to allow a greater range of music to be easily
played).
I have played Classical, Jazz, Folk, and Religious music on my Anglo
and my chemnitzer (still working on the fingerings for the chemnitzer
and can only play with the wife when we retune one of her violins to
match the tuning of the chemnitzer). So the limit of music styles
played is more in the skills of the player than this type of
instrument to large degree. I am by no means a professional nor at the
level of play yet (that is what practice is for).
So, I think we are just looking at the same item from two different
vantage points. Oh, that firm was founded in 2002 and they also link
themselves to Herr Arnold. It is funny that way.
Whatsanike,
The plates that I will be replacing the originals with are going to be
zinc (same material as new) and to the exact same dimensions as the
current ones. The current plates will be tuned to their as new
condition (which was and is meantone 1/5 with A=435Hz). the new plates
will be tuned to modern 12TET Key of C (as the original tuning was Key
of C for this instrument) with A=440Hz. In this fashion I maintain the
instruments original qualities while allowing for it to play with
modern groups and for those that wish tune so as to play in the style
of period of the instruments heyday, I have the original plates with
which to change out to.
You see the instrument does not use wax to seal the reeds but uses the
older (and some what better in my view) system of Chamois leather with
the plates tensioned against this material. It makes a very air tight
seal and also deadens some of the vibration that comes from the plate
giving a some what clean note. This was done in the 19th century.
This is a good bit of digression from the original thread but hey it
is still dealing with this subsection of the free reed family.
Michael
David Kastrup
If I read carefully what you quoted and are replying to, it appears to
me that you are more or less in violent agreement.
