Who makes accordions?
alexrat
I asked this in another thread:
Gary B. commented that Cooperfisa was one of the very few companies
actually making (most of?) their own accordions. (Nice photos of the
'plant' BTW.)
Meaning most of the rest of the companies are 'assemblers' rather than
manufacturers.
Since I haven't been to France nor Italy touring facilities, I was
wondering what other companies actually 'make' their own boxes. besides
cutting down the trees, maybe excluding making the reeds?
I believe Ventura said that Excelsior used to even season their own
wood stock. No more I guess.
Who would compare to Cooperfisa? Fisitalia? Verde? Pigini? Beltuna?
BOba
Jack Campin - bogus address
> actually making (most of?) their own accordions. (Nice photos of the
> 'plant' BTW.)
>
> Meaning most of the rest of the companies are 'assemblers' rather than
> manufacturers.
>
> Since I haven't been to France nor Italy touring facilities, I was
> wondering what other companies actually 'make' their own boxes. besides
> cutting down the trees, maybe excluding making the reeds?
Maugein, if their website is not misleading in some way.
Jupiter, presumably.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Theodore M. Kloba
> Meaning most of the rest of the companies are 'assemblers' rather than
> manufacturers.
How do you define the demarcation between the two? Does a
"manufacturer" have to own bauxite mines and forests? (Ridiculous
extreme, I know, but just to prove a point.)
What's so bad about being an "assembler" if you have a good program in
place to make sure your supply of components is consistent?
If your components are made by contract manufacuturers to your drawings
and specifications with good quality control, it's probably better in
many cases than making those parts youself, since the various
manufacturing processes are handled by specialists in those processes.
ginny
Studebakers were great cars, but they no longer exist and it was
because they had other manufactors make the components. They couldn't
control the parts or price.
snavo...@neo.rr.com
Consider this: If the bass section is made by one firm and sold to all
assemblers, regardless of requested specs, that section will have the
same sound characteristics in each assembly. This was proved many times
over by SEM when they made Paolo Soprani, Scandalli, Pier Maria,
Castiglione, etc. They all sounded the same, but looked different.
If you honestly believe that the xxxx section is made by the
subcontractor as 'special' for the assembler, you are mistaken. Even
the subcontractor acquires the same mechanisms (parts) from a central
supplier which were made elsewhere. Everyone does a specialty process
and those are used accordingly by each production group. Ecological
times have struck Italy and unless the firm has funds to adhere to the
government laws, they must 'farm out' those portions and assemble them
'in house'......the same as other firms with limited funds. The old
days are long gone.
--
Stephen J. Navoyosky
Ike Milligan
There were people making different parts. these people specialized.
The problem now is inferior parts made in the cheapest possible way
being slapped together. A good case in point is Excelsior. Someone
bought the name and put together something that on the outside looks
like one, but it is a piece of junk.
Theodore M. Kloba
> Studebakers were great cars, but they no longer exist and it was
> because they had other manufactors make the components. They couldn't
> control the parts or price.
wrong suppliers and not managing their own business properly. Probably
all automobile makesrs use parts from contract manufacturers.
Theodore M. Kloba
> Consider this: If the bass section is made by one firm and sold to all
> assemblers, regardless of requested specs, that section will have the
> same sound characteristics in each assembly. This was proved many times
> over by SEM when they made Paolo Soprani, Scandalli, Pier Maria,
> Castiglione, etc. They all sounded the same, but looked different.
Sounds like a bad job all around. It certainly implicates the
individual firms involved but not the concept in general.
> If you honestly believe that the xxxx section is made by the
> subcontractor as 'special' for the assembler, you are mistaken.
If I were hiring the subcontractor, I would expect it. If it turned
out not to be the case, I would fire them.
> Even
> the subcontractor acquires the same mechanisms (parts) from a central
> supplier which were made elsewhere. Everyone does a specialty process
> and those are used accordingly by each production group. Ecological
> times have struck Italy and unless the firm has funds to adhere to the
> government laws, they must 'farm out' those portions and assemble them
> 'in house'......the same as other firms with limited funds. The old
> days are long gone.
Doesn't mean the new days can't be good days.
Theodore M. Kloba
> Nobody in the manufacturing business ever made all parts themselves.
Exactly my point... There's no point in disparaging a firm for being
"only an assembler." There are good assemblers and bad assemblers; it
sounds like the accordion industry has been overrun by bad assemblers.
This doesn't mean some good ones won't come along.
> There were people making different parts. these people specialized.
> The problem now is inferior parts made in the cheapest possible way
> being slapped together. A good case in point is Excelsior. Someone
> bought the name and put together something that on the outside looks
> like one, but it is a piece of junk.
Why don't the buyers demand quality the way they would in any other
industry?
Ike Milligan
The issue is, that the infrastructure of craftsmanship does not exist in
the form it once did in Italy. There were a lot more individuals
involved in making various parts. In the case of the company making the
fake Excelsior, that was just a bad management decision.
Ike Milligan
don't know the difference. They want it repaired after it fails due to
bad reeds or bad construction, which may not be obvious until the
warranty period if any has passed. How are they supposed to express this
demand you have cited? I am expressing here and now on their behalf!
Theodore M. Kloba
> Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
> > Why don't the buyers demand quality the way they would in any other
> > industry?
> They simply buy the name Excelsior thinking it's a real one. Many buyers
> don't know the difference. They want it repaired after it fails due to
> bad reeds or bad construction, which may not be obvious until the
> warranty period if any has passed. How are they supposed to express this
> demand you have cited? I am expressing here and now on their behalf!
Sorry... I meant the buyers for the manufacturer, not the consumer. I
guess the answer is that the current ownership/management is not
concerned about long-term goodwill from consumers and is just "milking"
the company's history.
alexrat
Well, I'm not actually replying to the above, but re-asking my
question.
Who today is a reliable manufacturer of accordions. I would assume it
is better to have control over as much of the process as possible.
It's not a abstract question as I hope to get a custom box built, and
would like to know who to trust.
Maugein. Fisitalia, Verde,? Gary vouches for Cooperfisa. I have a
newish Beltuna and it's a strong box, but they don't seem interested,
BOba
Ventura
The position i've held is that an assembler is at
the mercy of the supply chain, and that the less
vertical integration of materials and sub-assemblies
a factory directly controls, the less they are able to
control cost and quality fluctuations.
as far as assemblers having parts made to their "specs"
honestly i think we have to realize the purchasing power
of the Accordion market simply doesn't have the headroom
to accomodate what seems so obvious to you, and is normal
in many other industries.
For example, i might get a wild idea that molding the
bass chamber in it's entirety out of a composite graphite
would be a big weight saver... and maybe i'd like to see
Titanium substituted for all the aluminum parts (which
might allow for thinner, lighter parts) in the bass and
treble machinery.
Simply telling them i want that would get me laughed out
of CastleFi... I'd have to fund my own Research and
Development lab, go through a full process of engineering
and testing prototypes, completely spec the designs in
machine terms, then be willing to pay the cost of special
tooling for the "parts supplier" to create these in mass
"to my specifications" (not to my dreams) and then contract
to order the parts and assemblies at a rate that allows the
parts manufacturer to make it viable finacially for them.
there is precious little R&D money left in the acoustic
Accordion universe at the largest companies, much less
for some small (by old factory standards) assembly shop.
that is why i tried to make people aware over the years how
precious to us the last two major "complete" accordion houses
were to our industry and heritage
Now it is true that the Deffner company, perticularly with
their Titano brand, have a long history of innovative
design and continued to spearhead design changes and
spec interesting improvments to this day. Their buying
power and the respect their principals comand in thet
industry makes this possible, though i believe it is more
"ideas in collaboration" rather than "ones own R&D department"
that allowed for the new lightweight 4 reed model, for example,
or the professional ladies model with the awesome modern
lace-like grillwork. I would imagine that Castiglione also
has the buying power and reputation to effect design
changes but i don't know of anything innovative coming out
of his house-branded models in the last 20 years.
does anyone else in America do more than specify cosmetic
preferences, reed configurations and tuning structures on
their orders? i doubt it.
and Ike, i would like you to know that CEMEX (Excelsior Italy)
actually did make even their own key tops and buttons from
raw plastic, cellulose, and other materials... they machined
and formed their own key mechanisms, they lovingly crafted
their own tone chambers from exotic woods seasoned in their
own kiln, they made reeds from scratch... they could and did
make every part from raw materials in house including their
electronic assemblies (from simple audio boards through
complex MIDI motherboards) and of course they made their own
bodies and coverings in their entirety. Some of the bodies
had been in continuous manufacture since the 1950's. In
addition they had (physically, during my visits to their factory)
sheets of cellulose and other materials, stocks of key-tops and
spare parts for the New York models (including pre-war)
as well as the actual Machines, mothballed (packed in grease
actually) and sitting in the rafters of the factory should
they ever need to put a certain machine back into use in order to
re-create certain vintage parts or assemblies.
It is also true that in later years it became actually less
expensive to buy key buttons and such from suppliers, and you
would find these less expensive parts in their "export" models
Also i would like to point out for the record that in my personal
opinion, SEM ceased to exist as a martial entity when their
physical factory closed, and that SEM never built Paolo Soprani
or Scandalli nameplate accordions. The company that subsequently
bought the name and certain assets of SEM is who owned or owns
certain rights to a multitude of other names including both E
and P Soprani, Scandalli, etc. As far as i know the PierMaria
owners who had their long term relationship with the SEM factory
did NOT continue the relationship with the new owners of "SEM"
and i would have to see with my own eyes that the same "plastic
hubcap" crap the new people make under the other bleeding
nameplates, using Korean and Chinese bodies, to believe the
PierMaria people would ever allow their name to be brought so low.
I did, however, point out quite some years ago that once Hohner
(probably the only entity financially and technologically powerful
enough to order accordions built to their specifications in fact)
worked their Chinese system to the point where they would end their
contract with SEM for the Alpine and Atlantic lines (as they replaced
the Italian built with Asian sourced units) and then eventually
not renewing the contract with Excelsior for the Morino and Gola
lines, would possibly de-stabilize those two companies to the poinnt
of running in the red.
so IMHO you can chalk the deaths of our last two Giants partially
up to the Chinese flood...
My opinions are offered for your consideration, based on
my personal observations and knowledge.
Ciao
Ventura
> Ike Milligan wrote:
>
>>Nobody in the manufacturing business ever made all parts themselves.
>
pres...@gmail.com
Nice post Ventura. I disagree about the Chinese. It is the old fart
mentality that killed the accordion. HEre we are in 2006 and people are
still trying to play like Magnante and Diero. Nobody wants to hear that
crap.
Johann Pascher
Perhaps we need to specify it more to get the answers.
I tried to start on it in the past but i did not get contributing posts.
Would you like to include diatonic models as well?
For chromatic models we better start with the question who is making
parts for them.
Who dose there own assembling,
who does there own tuning work,
who builds bellows,
and so on.
Beltuna is one of the bigger Companies now in Castellfidardo still
making a lot of Casework and Mechanical parts them self.
And i am sure that there is not one Company what makes all there parts
them self any more.
For diatonic Boxes for instance, the Austrian Company Strasser builds
all parts them self, except the reeds and very minor supplying sources
like Screws. The build all mechanical parts them self and plastic parts
are molded to the specifications for them in some specialized Companies.
If we exclude reeds as the are made by specializes Company's anyway,
i can say that Austrian diatonic accordion Builders relay on parts
produced by other Company's, the smaller the Company the more parts are
in most cases bought form the Bigger Company's.
No Parts or Casework made in China is in use by this Austrian Company's.
Still there are some Brand names for Austrian Diatonic Boxes that use
Complete Boxes Made in Italy or Germany, the same practice is known for
some Slovenian brand Names.
Easier would be to answer specific Questions to special Brand names.
Johann
Johann Pascher
Very good post, we should save this one!
Johann
Theodore M. Kloba
I think the "old fart mentality" may apply not just to performance, but
also to manufacturing.
(For those who don't know) I am not really an accordion player-- I
fiddle around with one decrepit-but-playable Soviet-era Garmoshka that
some day I will restore. Mostly I play concertina and bandoneon.
I realize it's not quite an "apples to apples" comparison, but modern
concertina & bandoneon makers (e.g. Richard Morse, Harry Geuns) are
making effective use of contract manufacturers where suitable, and
making parts in-house where critical... A balance between
"manufacturing" and "assembling." The instruments are well respected
in the community, and sometimes even preferred to much costlier
restored vintage instruments. Product quantities are way below even
those of accordions.
I don't think any of the concertina/bandoneon builders buy anything
from Castelfidardo except reeds for "hybrid" instruments. Maybe
Ventura's suggestion that asking for what you want gets you laughed out
of the place has something to do with that.
Ike Milligan
be harder to do than on a real accordion. Except the Hohner lines Bravo
and up.
gazzapt
Ike Milligan wrote:
> Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
> > snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
> >> Consider this: If the bass section is made by one firm and sold to all
> >> assemblers, regardless of requested specs, that section will have the
> >> same sound characteristics in each assembly. This was proved many times
> >> over by SEM when they made Paolo Soprani, Scandalli, Pier Maria,
> >> Castiglione, etc. They all sounded the same, but looked different.
> >
> > Sounds like a bad job all around. It certainly implicates the
> > individual firms involved but not the concept in general.
Steve is bang on with this one.
Ike, your comment about '' fake'' excelsiors opens a whole can of
worms.
How is Exclesior any more fake than Paolo soprani, Scandalli, Beltrami,
Ranco etc etc etc. These names have all been bought in the same way and
many more like it.
Cooperafisa however, is run by the original family and they train the
younger generation in the art of Accordion manufacture. There is hope
that the tradition will continue.
Regards
Gary B
Ike Milligan
an extreme departure from what it was before the fakers got hold of it.
unlike the other names you mentioned, which were either less well-known
or not thought of as consistently high quality among American gigsters.
Excelsior brand was once an icon for many serious players, whether
deservedly or not.
Now, let me go over the problems with it. I had to fix several of the
clones for a man who was buying them off ebay in need of repair. One had
the bass pallets glued on with rubber cement, obviously at the factory.
The pads began to rotate on the rods causing ciphering in the bass.
Another had a non-restorable palm switch, instead of being made from
discrete parts like the old palm switches, was made from a molded
plastic module. Another had the white key covers in the middle of the
keyboard bending when pressed down. Another one I saw of very recent
vintage had terrible reeds, and they were starting to suck air from the
reed tongues being sprung too high, just from moderate playing. At first
they seem to have been using up the stock of original Excelsior reeds
with just cheap mechanical construction. Now even the reeds are
terrible. None of these issues were with the original company. It is
consumer fraud.
gazzapt
> an extreme departure from what it was before the fakers got hold of it.
> unlike the other names you mentioned, which were either less well-known
> or not thought of as consistently high quality among American gigsters.
> Excelsior brand was once an icon for many serious players, whether
> deservedly or not.
> Now, let me go over the problems with it. I had to fix several of the
> clones for a man who was buying them off ebay in need of repair. One had
> the bass pallets glued on with rubber cement, obviously at the factory.
> The pads began to rotate on the rods causing ciphering in the bass.
>
The answer has to be '' less well known'' as the Scandalli Super VI is
arguably
( along with the Settimo Soprani Artiste V!) the holy grail of
accordions and the
most sought after accordions on this planet ( along with the Sonola
SS220 and Excelsior grand of course)
I take it you are talking about the chinese made Excelsiors which are
truly awful . The only ones i have seen that are worse are the E
sopranis ( taiwan) and one from Russia that was renamed ( rosini) which
was unplayable
Regards
gary b
snavo...@neo.rr.com
Gary is right on with this info and it has to do with bygone days as
far as the Holy Grail desires. There is and was a big difference
between New York Excelsior and the later Italian Excelsior. The main
reason is that the New York Excelsior built and established the Italian
factory 50 or more years ago. At that time it was known as the
Excelsiola/Accordiana factory as it supplied the semi-professional
(Excelsiola) and student (Accordiana) linesby mass production for New
York Excelsior, it's parent. The quality was naturally lesser than New
York's quality where 4 and then 5 Excelsior (original) models were made
in-house. Once Excelsior of New York dissolved (ca.1964) the equipment
was shipped to their Italian factory where it remains in storage. It
was then when the Italian factory began using the Excelsior brand name
but constructing under the same manner which Excelsiolas and
Accordianas had been made.
What Ike speaks about has to be during this period when various
inadequate glues and other problems surfaced by attempting to reduce
construction costs.
Ike Milligan
The Excelsiola and the Accordiana were not that bad as what I have seen
made later. Glue was part of the problem, but Excelsiola had glue
problems on the treble pads, but was still not as awful as Excelsiors
made after that. The adhesive on many of the Excelsiolas and Excelsiors
treble pads after New York period, would leak through the pads and make
them stick to to plate so that the keys would hesitate to come up when
played. Also the leather facing on the pads would fall off in either the
treble or bass. But Excelsiors and Excelsiolas were still not badly made
at that point except for the pad problem which would surface after
several years. The truly bad Excelsiors I have seen did not look like
they were made elsewhere than Italy. There may have been truly
counterfeit ones made in other countries, but I don't think that's what
I was seeing.
Now when (Gary) speaks of "Holy Grail" accordions, I am not familiar
with the Scan Super 6, but someone called me yesterday with one that he
said was made by Farfisa. I don't know if original Scandalli company
made a different one or not. I do know it had a double tone chamber, and
I don't doubt hat the original Scandalli company was capable of making a
fine accordion. I would be interested to know if there were different
editions of this one.
Once you mention the Sonola I think you may be in a higher league
altogether, although I have never seen the Scan Super 6. There were
never any of these issues with Sonola. Always faultless.
Gadjo
>>
> I am not sure the Chines or Russians are to blame.
> The Excelsiola and the Accordiana were not that bad as what I have seen
> made later. Glue was part of the problem, but Excelsiola had glue
> problems on the treble pads, but was still not as awful as Excelsiors
> made after that. The adhesive on many of the Excelsiolas and Excelsiors
> treble pads after New York period, would leak through the pads and make
> them stick to to plate so that the keys would hesitate to come up when
> played. Also the leather facing on the pads would fall off in either the
> treble or bass. But Excelsiors and Excelsiolas were still not badly made
> at that point except for the pad problem which would surface after
> several years. The truly bad Excelsiors I have seen did not look like
> they were made elsewhere than Italy. There may have been truly
> counterfeit ones made in other countries, but I don't think that's what
> I was seeing.
> Now when (Gary) speaks of "Holy Grail" accordions, I am not familiar
> with the Scan Super 6, but someone called me yesterday with one that he
> said was made by Farfisa. I don't know if original Scandalli company
> made a different one or not. I do know it had a double tone chamber, and
> I don't doubt hat the original Scandalli company was capable of making a
> fine accordion. I would be interested to know if there were different
> editions of this one.
> Once you mention the Sonola I think you may be in a higher league
> altogether, although I have never seen the Scan Super 6. There were
> never any of these issues with Sonola. Always faultless.
Hi there
The original Scandalli Super 6 was produced in the '50-60', and till you
don't try this accordion, you can't imagine what a wonderful instrument
it is. Double tone chamber, SIX sets of bass reeds (with 11 registers
for the bass section, plus an "extra switch" which gives a Helikon-like
sound). This is THE Scandalli Super 6 (the Settimio Soprani Artist 6 is
basically the same accordion and the only difference is in the grill
design). The fact is that anyone who tried this instrument falled in
love whit it and started to consider it the all-time best accordion,
regardless of other tremendously good accordions as Hohner Gola (the
only that can maybe compete with the S6), the old Excelsiors, Sonolas,
Dallapè and Guerrinis, as well as there were also good Morbidonis,
Piginis, Bugaris, etc. I refer to the european market because I never
seen "live" a Bell or a Petosa, for example.
Back to the main theme:
Scandalli and Settimio Soprani were co-working from the late '40s, when
the original S.Soprani factory was destroyed by fire. The S.Sopranis
from that years were manufactured in Camerano (near Castelfidardo) in
the Scandalli factory.
The brand name Farfisa (FAbbriche Riunite FISArmoniche) born in early
'70, by the fusion of that 2 brands S.Soprani and Scandalli, but that
were years of the first electronic keyboards, in which Farfisa was
specialized. Scandallis from that years are absolutely junk, keys are in
plastic, bass mechanic is horrible, even estetically the accordions are
"ugly". Now, there's a lot of this "fake" Scandallis (made by Farfisa)
around in eBay. Just to know, these accordions are marked "manufactured
by Farfisa" and also the reedblocks are marked Farfisa musical
instruments, or something like this.
Besides, there were also the "original" ('50-'60) Super Sixes with only
6 bass registers - a sort of cheaper versions, but they are very rare
and also uncomparable to the accordion which i described at the start of
this post.
So, the only TRUE, ORIGINAL and UNMISTAKABLE Super 6 has SIX sets of
bass reeds and ELEVEN registers on the bass side.
Scandalli (which is today manufactured by Sem, as well as Paolo Soprani
and Menghini) si still doing a "replica" of the old Super 6, called
Super 6 "Vintage". The accordion looks cosmetically like his
"grandfather", but it has "only" 5 sets of reeds, 9 bass registers and
does not have the "simil-helikon" switch. BTW, I never tried it, and
can't therefore give any judice, even if I'm sure that the accordions
from the so-called "golden age" will survive only in our memories.
Best regards
David Cej
Ventura
similar to the relationship between "Crumar" and "Crucianelli"
i am not familiar with the timeline of the company, as far
as determining what period(s) of time delivered their best
merchandise, but the super 6 model was still being made
long after there was nothing left but a name... for instance
during Del Turco's control of the Farfisa assets after
they came under the ownership of BonTempi
Also, as far as I am concerned, in my opinion the Italian
branch of Excelsior, after all operations were moved to
that facility, built acordions as good or beter than anyone
else on earth. With my own eyes i watched master technicians
regulate and set up complex keyboards that were so quick, well
balanced and yet firm that IMHO nothing else could compare.
and i've NEVER seen any other brand that could achieve the
minimal clearance and close tolerance on a 5 reed treble
with chamber... Excelsior, under Luciani's stewardship, could
do more in 3/32 of an inch than anyone else in Castlefidardo.
While the Excelsior name may (or not) now be reduced to a joke,
panning their history/quality in general is just sour grapes and
revisionist history... of course there were certain problems
over the years (Hohner used that glue in their Gola's too for
awhile on the pads... no-body is perfect) but if for no other
model, Art VanDammes AC and the decade after decade of
manufacture and service of this model by Excelsior/Italy
should make it obvious to everyone that pretending CEMEX
only built student accordions is just a buncha sour grapes.
ciao
Ventura
alexrat
Ventura wrote:
> Farfisa was simply the electronics division of Scandalli,
> similar to the relationship between "Crumar" and "Crucianelli"
>
Another post to bookmark, along with David's. It would be fascinating
(for me anyway) to read a history of accordion manufacturing.
Someone asked what I'm looking for? A small (34 key) 4 reed treble PA.
BOba
gma
Castelfidardo. Baffetti is a fully functioning builder .. from scratch
( save bellows, celluloid, engraving and use of externally produced
treble and bass mechanism parts )..
I was in Stradella yesterday and saw the old Dallapè factory .. ( an
empty building in decay )... they made fine instruments.. and Mr. D.
does supervise the building of special orders. They exported to the
Yugoslavian market.. and the War there knocked their activity back
substantially.
GMA.. in ITALY.
ginny
Ok, lazy me. Some day, within a few years, I would like a nice new
accordion. Quality. Can some one list, one list, who makes what and
what still has quality. I clue on how much to save as well.
No Chiense, I have one bad note on my current accordion, not all bad
notes. I am sure if I went back to Mr. Cirelli he'd fix it.
alexrat
Cooperfisa is in Vercelli in the Piedmont regione. Did you take photos
at the old Dallape place?
Obviously no one makes an accordion from scratch. I assume that the
more of the production you have in your building the more control over
quality.
I want a small nice accordion with free bass and 4 treble reeds.
Someone told me to go to Pigini because they make more basseti
instruments than anyone else, Other places would just buy the bass
mechanism and 'drop it in.'
So that's what I'm mulling over.
BOba
Ike Milligan
Depends on what you require in a new accordion. Hohner bravo is not bad
for Chinese and maybe better than some Italian. Higher edn than that,
I'm not optimistic you'll be able to get anything except custom built.
ginny
I am very choosy about tone quality, I don't even like my husband's old
German built Hohner as a matter of fact. I do like the sound of our
friend's Petosa. So who is building quality accordions now, where do
you get them? Go to Europe?
Ike Milligan
if the client is sure of the specifications, but I would only go to the
trouble of making inquiries for someone I know is serious.
Actually there are loads and loads of accordions that need restoration,
of various sizes and every range of quality, that were built in the days
when more care was taken than is the custom now.
You don't have to go to Italy, unless you need to go there anyway.
ginny
Don't bother making inquiries, thanks. I am more interested in doing
some research with the view that if I continue playing accordion
another year or two I will not be happy with my current accordion
(which Vince Cirelli improved greatly, which I much prefer to my little
Guiletti.)
Again all I really would like, at this time, is a list of who actually
makes quality accordions currently and the names they are sold under.
ginny
A quick glance through the thread yeilds:
Cooperfista
Beltuna
Bafista
SEM and CEMEX ruining a number of other formerly fine brands.
Ike Milligan
How many sets of reeds do you play and size and weight?
alexrat
ginny wrote:
>(snip)> Don't bother making inquiries, thanks. I am more interested in doing
> some research with the view that if I continue playing accordion
> another year or two I will not be happy with my current accordion
> (which Vince Cirelli improved greatly, which I much prefer to my little
> Guiletti.)
>
> Again all I really would like, at this time, is a list of who actually
> makes quality accordions currently and the names they are sold under.
Hi Ginny,
What model Giulieti do you have? What don't you like about it?
I can vouch for Beltuna also. I trust Gary on Cooperfisa. Fisitalia's
owner seems to have a receptive ear.
BOba
gazzapt
Sorry GMA
Absolutely Not the case regarding cooperfisa.
They are built in Vercelli at the Cooperfisa factory.
Dallape was indeed a very fine accordion in its day.
Played many and liked most of them
Regards
gary blair
ginny
Model S14, a student model from the 90s. One problem is that the
keyboard is even smaller than I like, my main accordion is smaller than
a piano but slightly bigger than this. The other thing is that the
bellows are small, although nice and tight it lacks any kind of power.
It's very sweet sounding, but I prefer the punch my other has, a
Bonelli (no doubt something else inside.) The other thing is is so
light that it's very touchy about reflecting any bounce in either hand
and unforgiving of my bellows tecnique as well. Sort of like doing a
jig in a dighy vs on the Titanic.
I have the added problem of wanting small keys and a small instrument.
I don't need a bunch of reed settings but I want a good tone.
ginny
The other thing that's a problem is correctable, for a price, the
Guiletti is tune 443. I don't have perfect pitch, one of the kids does,
but it bugs my Klezmer band and sounds bad when my husband and I play
together (rather rare, since I hold him back so much.)
Gadjo
From what I heard (from accodions brand-owners too), ALL accordions raw
wooden bodies are built in Castelfidardo. That means that there are only
a couple of "body-builders" (nice definition... huh ;-)) for a lot of
assemblers. One of this is Ballone Burini, which produces bodies for the
majority of accordion assemblers. There are no more wood artisans or
factories in Stradella since a few years (the last was Dallapè). So the
only place where you can bring a piece of raw wood and get back a
fully-functioning accordion is in Castelfidardo. All Stradella
manufacturers are buying bodies there. The same is true for some french
brand, as Crosio (once it was italian, then part of the factory moved in
France and quality is not the same).
To make an example, if you ask the brand "A" to have a fully
personalized accordion, brand "A" will do a special order to the
factory, which will make the wooden body. Then, brand "A" will cover it
with celluloid, put in the reedblocks, reeds, keys, registers etc., and
sell you the finished instrument.
Cooperfisa does not make exeption (even if they are very good
accordions). The only difference is between "serial" boxes (many brands
buy the same body and then compete them) or "exclusive" bodies (you will
never find the same body of a - for example - ByMarco in any other brand).
On all accordion web-sites, they show you some pictures of the
manufacturing process, but noone shows the manufacturing of raw wood (or
there are a few old - 40yrs or so - pictures). Just do a trip in
Castelfidardo and ask the "builders" if you can see how a piece of wood
can become a box... they will show you nothing less than already-crafted
raw wood bodies.
So, this topic could be renamed in "who makes accordions from A to Z?".
Difficult question.
Regards
David
Mary Kay
posts with interest & just thought I'd recommend that you call the guys
at Petosa in Seattle (petosa.com) because the Zero Sette I got from them
is tops.
I relate to your desire for full size keyboard, because I had a ladies
size keyboard at one time and knew the keys were too narrow to learn to
play well on, and anyway another note about other accordions that people
say are great brands - - Gary Dahl said he thinks my other accordion
(the Concerto) is made by Fisitalia, which many people say is really
great, and I do love that accordion a lot but really gotta say the Zero
Sette has better key action (faster smoothner-acting keys) and easier
bellowing. Someday I will just go up there to Seattle to see those guys
(and look out pocket book) because they totally steered me right when I
was making my purchase looking for a "better" accordion.
One little thing, the Zero Sette was louder than I preferred, but I
noticed Gary Dahl said it is good to tape on a piece of felt over the
sound holes (under the grilles) and that has made it perfecto mundo!!!
I had a great discussion with Joe Petosa when I got the 07, and he
actually ranked all the makes for me, in a very honest way. Beltuna,
etc. etc. which is better than which other. He was short and to the
point and I took his advice for my price range & size needs and got the
Zero Sette 34/72.
One warning, if you try one of the Zero Settes (or a Petosa!) you just
might have to buy one, $o $tart $aving up now.
;-)
Mary Kay
http://aufrance.com/gairin/
Hey! Maybe I should ask for a sales commission since I sound like some
kind of commercial or something!!!
ginny
Hi Mary,
Great to see you back!. Actually I like a small keyboard and keys, but
the Guilletti is really really small. I sure would be happy if Zero
Sette or Petosa had something lady sized, with medium "little" keys.
Loud is good when you play with trombones and such. We've thought about
taking our checkbook up to Petosa, though I don't think they make small
keys at all and then my husband would end up with a nice new accordion
and I'd be jealous.
Len Killick
>
> On all accordion web-sites, they show you some pictures of the
> manufacturing process, but noone shows the manufacturing of raw wood (or
> there are a few old - 40yrs or so - pictures). Just do a trip in
> Castelfidardo and ask the "builders" if you can see how a piece of wood
> can become a box... they will show you nothing less than already-crafted
> raw wood bodies.
>
> So, this topic could be renamed in "who makes accordions from A to Z?".
> Difficult question.
>
> Regards
>
> David
To add to the list: here a few pictures taken at the Baffetti works a
few years ago. It was a bit chaotic as they were preparing to move to a
new purpose build building (like all such moves it was a year later
before it actually happened!). I haven't seen the new building since it
opened, but I believe the work is just the same, with the move they
also took on 3 additional staff (two juniors and one experienced). As
it was said earlier in this thread, Baffetti makes their own
instruments, and quite a lot on contract to others; they do their own
woodwork, and assemble the complete instrument but use ready made bass
mechanism parts, keys, buttons levers. bellows are made by outside
contractors, and celluloid is applied by outside contractors (because
of the health and safety rules it's not viable to do it themselves
anymore); reeds are mostly bought as parts (reed tongues and plates)
from a reed maker and assembled and tuned as sets by their own staff.
making the housing parts:
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti1.jpg
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti2.jpg
some of the collection of templates for making the housing (they keep
the templates for all models back to when they started in the 1950s:
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti3.jpg
materials:
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti4.jpg
finished product:
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti5.jpg
the new works being built:
http://www.killick.de/images/baffetti6.jpg
Len Killick
gazzapt
Hello
Maybe I just imagined them making the cases in front of my eyes, or
maybe they are very good magicians.
Regards
gary b
Ron McOuat
Ron
Johann Pascher
Very nice Pictures!
When ware the taken?
In the year of 2003 the ware already in the new Building.
Johann
Len Killick
Johann Pascher wrote:
> H, Len!
>
> Very nice Pictures!
>
> When ware the taken?
>
> In the year of 2003 the ware already in the new Building.
>
> Johann
They were taken late in 2001 when the move was planned for May 2002,
but in the end it was near the end of 2002 that the move actually
happened. I hope to get back to Castelfidardo this year and make a full
photo set of the work in the new building as I would like to get
Baffetti to put a tour of the works on his own web site!
Len
Mario Bruneau
Ugly looking box too. But the musette sound of byMarco is out of this
world. Very good musette sounding accordion.
--
Répondre à / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Mario Bruneau
(819) 843-3852
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau
Johann Pascher
I look forward to her and see more about it!
Hope you get soon down to Castelfidardo.
Johann
Mary Kay
Now that is funny about your husband haha I have one of those kinds of
husbands, too.
Yes, I don't think anybody makes the lady sized keyboards anymore. I had
one on a Petromillis 120 bass but my hands were actually too large for
the lady size keyboard. And, then I was given a 120 bass 50 year old
Paolo Soprani that I kept only for a short time, and it was very very
nice, but too many basses for me so I sent it to Bob Fogt in St. Paul
and although it did not survive travel very well, he managed to re-stick
the bass reeds back on. He did not do a full re-reed job, but he said it
is nicely playable again. It had a very nice keyboard feel, so if you
can find a lady's size Paolo Soprani then you might like having one of
those. It had a nice nice sound and I just did not want the 120 basses.
Trouble is, of course, you have to find one that will not cost you an
arm and a leg in the re-conditioning process.
If you want to ask Bob about the Paolo Soprani, please let me know and I
will give you his email address so you can contact him - I think he is
still looking for a home for it. He wants to find someone who will
actually play it, and you fit that description :-)
MK
Mary Kay
Johann's and the others,
Len Killick
Weltmeister name. Models Rubin, Juwel and Opal. They call them a
"Medium Tastatur" or MT models.
Len Killick
ginny
Hi Mary Kay,
Thanks for the info. I'm probably not ready to buy another one, but it
looks as if I won't be able to get a new accordion and will need to
save up to have something rebuilt completely.
Ginny
ginny
Thanks Len,
I've heard the Weltmisters are pretty bad sounding, but I will check
them out. It will be a while until I do anything.
Ginny
ike milligan
"ginny" <gins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1154100920.2...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Len Killick wrote:
>> Harmona (http://www.harmona.de/) make lady size keyboards under the
>> Weltmeister name. Models Rubin, Juwel and Opal. They call them a
>> "Medium Tastatur" or MT models.
>>
>> Len Killick
>>
>
> Thanks Len,
>
> I've heard the Weltmisters are pretty bad sounding, but I will check
> them out. It will be a while until I do anything.
>
> Ginny
>
junk. Hohner Bravos are better, but I am very soon going to stop
recommending them. Since Hohner Europe took over from Hohner HSS HohnerUSA
parts dept. has stopped returning my calls, and is never there wne I call.
If a customer had a poblem with a new one, I have no idea whether I could
get them to solve it. If you can get one for about 20% off retail without
buying it on line, and can try it out to make sure it is good, fine.
If you don't like the Hohner, you probably won't like the Weltmeistter, and
they cost more.
Another brand I would stay away from in piano accordions is Gabbanelli. I
had to do a complete reed overhaul, new wax, and reglue the leathers on a
1998 Gabbanelli because of bad glue on the reed leathers. This was after I
called up Mik Gabbanelli, and he said he would fix it. When it came back fom
Houston all he had done was put a spot of what looked like Elmer's glue on
the corners of all the leathers. They were still not well attached.
I had to take all the reed plates out, clean off the Elmer's from the top
grain side with scissors and sandpaper, glue them on with shellac glue, and
pour all new wax treble and bass. the leathers wee still good enough to
reuse after less than 20 years. Burt I have never seen the glue go bad like
that except on accordions 50 years old that had been kep[t in a damp place,
which this one had not.
Hohner T reeds and gabbanelli reeds have a tendency to break from metal
fatigue although I would say that Gabbanelli used slightly better reeds in
the one I worked on.
I don't get to work on many Gabbanelli accordions, but the other one I fixed
a few years ago was a button box where the buttons had all come off, from
disintegration of the plastic posts. I thought then it was due to humid
conditions, but now, I think Gabbanelli may have glue problems on everything
they sell.
Be very wary of new accordions, as it is not an art or a business, but a
racket of the manufacturers.
Mary Kay
That does sound like a really good idea - to get a quality model
completely reconditioned. (I read all the prior posts and have also
heard that the Weltmeisters are just mid-range and not top quality, as
well, although they seem to have quite a marketing effort.)
I too think your feeling that loud is good IS good, because you can
always quiet an accordion down with felt, but would need an amplifier if
you have to go the other way.
If you ever get an image of your Klez. band online, I would love to see
you and your cool group!!!
MK
http://aufrance.com/gairin/
Len Killick
Mary Kay wrote:
> Dear Ginny,
>
> That does sound like a really good idea - to get a quality model
> completely reconditioned. (I read all the prior posts and have also
> heard that the Weltmeisters are just mid-range and not top quality, as
> well, although they seem to have quite a marketing effort.)
>
Perhaps I should say that when I mentioned Weltmeisters I was only
answering the question of does anyone make lady-size keyboards anymore
- I (quite deliberately) didn't get into a discussion of quality! From
my point of view, I think they sound good for what they are meant to be
(i.e. quite like Hohner), and most of the mechanics are OK for the
price, but I have some reservations about the keyboard action on some
models.
Len Killick
ike milligan
"Mary Kay" <mkREeM...@personalsecurityzoneREeMUVTHiS.com> wrote in
message news:44CC2E...@personalsecurityzoneREeMUVTHiS.com...
> Dear Ginny,
>
> That does sound like a really good idea - to get a quality model
> completely reconditioned. (I read all the prior posts and have also
> heard that the Weltmeisters are just mid-range and not top quality, as
> well, although they seem to have quite a marketing effort.)
>
> I too think your feeling that loud is good IS good, because you can
> always quiet an accordion down with felt, but would need an amplifier if
> you have to go the other way.
>
> If you ever get an image of your Klez. band online, I would love to see
> you and your cool group!!!
>
> MK
> http://aufrance.com/gairin/
completely reconditioned, I don't know. But John Castiglione does have a
good technician fixing them up.