MIDI Accordions
Marinmusic
The system has magnetic sensors in right hand and springs in left hand. It
also has bellows control. I am not sure what brand the system is but it is
whatever Bugari was using at the time. It might have been MusicTech but it
only says Bugari on the control pad. The control pad is a strip mounted at the
bottom of the grill near the keyboard. It has a little red display window.
The MIDI never worked properly and some of the little glass tubes (in right
hand sensors) were always out of alignment (some of the tubes were even out of
alignment when I first received the instrument from Italy). The wiring on the
board inside the accordion (mounted on the reed blocks) was also very fragile
and often broke. I had it repaired several times This was not a very good
system for a gigging musician. I want to have this MIDI system replaced with
somthing more reliable and gig friendly. I would like to have something with
touch sensitiviety in right hand and bellows control is not important to me. I
have tried accordions with new MusicTech and Logic Systems. What systems are in
use by members of this group? How many of you have systems with touch
sensitivity in right hand? Thanks for your response.
Steve
Krazy Kanuk
I
> have tried accordions with new MusicTech and Logic Systems. What systems
are in
> use by members of this group? How many of you have systems with touch
> sensitivity in right hand? Thanks for your response.
>
know it has bellows velocity control......What systems have keyboard
velocity control? I've never heard of any for accordion that had this.
Len
w.d.
>>I have tried accordions with new MusicTech and Logic Systems. What
systems are in
> use by members of this group? How many of you have systems with touch
> sensitivity in right hand? Thanks for your response.
>
> Steve
Please tell us how do you feel about MusicTech and Logic System MIDI
afterwards you play it?
What do you mean by touch sensitivity? Do you mean MIDi accordions
that employ spring (spiral or spring wire) contacts on the treble side
instead of magnetic type? Is that something completely different
scheme than magnetic or spring contacts?
I have used Bonotron MIDI controllers with spring contacts and I like
it, however, I sold it to raise money for new CBA. Plan to make
another unit but did not make my mind as yet which one would be a
better choice - MIDI with magnetic or spring contacts.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Marinmusic
hand and a touch sensitive keyboard. The touch sensitivity works great for all
piano, mallet instruments, and plucked string instrument patches. I have a
great piano patch that sounds very realistic when the touch sensitivity is on.
When striking a key in the right hand, if I apply more pressure, the sound
produced is louder and if I strike it lighter the sound is softer. This is how
real piano, mallet instruments (vibes, Marimba, etc...), guitars, banjo,
mandolin are played. The touch sensitivity makes it sound more realistic but
it takes some getting used to in order to use it properly. I have really come
to love it. I also have the Concerto pedals set up so that they work like
piano pedals, sustain, damper, etc...
I liked the MusicTech King Major but missed th touch senisitivity. I also found
it a little difficult to figure out. The one a tried had the sound engine on
board and was on a Piermaria reedless accordion. I am afraid that if the
sound card or chip that is in there ever went out it would be a nightmare.
This happened to someone I know. My friend Steve Balich has the Logic System
on his Petosa. He had an issue with it and Petosa did replaced the board
inside for him. The Logic system can seem complicated at first. It seems to
have many options but takes a bit of a learning curve. My Concerto on the
other hand is very easy use and program. IT is user friendly and intuitive.
The only downside is that it is a very proprietery system. If anything goes
wrong, you have to go to the designer of the instrument for repair or parts.
After doing a little reaseach I think I might be leaning towards a Limex
system for my Bugari. I have received great recomendations from this group
about Limex. I would like my Bugari to be a back up instrument in case I do
have a problem with the Concerto.
Steve
John`s_ NEWS
MIDI with spring contacts is the old technology.
MIDI with solid state and magnetic contacts is the new technology.
I am installing MIDI with a solid state (magnetic contacts) for the treble
and basses
with dynamic bellows.
I can install it in "almost" any accordion including PA, CBA, and Diatonic.
Definitely magnetic contacts are the best.
BR
John
(John`s Musical Instruments Repair)
"w.d." <w...@snip.net> wrote in message
news:d69425e0.02121...@posting.google.com...
Krazy Kanuk
"> After doing a little reaseach I think I might be leaning towards a Limex
> system for my Bugari. I have received great recomendations from this
group
> about Limex. I would like my Bugari to be a back up instrument in case I
do
> have a problem with the Concerto.
>
I've been looking at Limex too and can't figure out anything extraordinary
about them....except perhaps that you mount it externally and so don't have
to hack up your grill....but the ones I've seen, I don't like the look of as
they look like a piece of rebar stuck on the accordion....(kind of like
those ugly Kent microphones that they used to have...at least they were
chrome)....I'm still considering Musictech as my forst choice...???
Len
Dan Lavry
news:3dfe3e1a$1...@news3.accesscomm.ca...
> I've been looking at Limex too and can't figure out anything extraordinary
> about them....except perhaps that you mount it externally and so don't
have
> to hack up your grill....but the ones I've seen, I don't like the look of
as
> they look like a piece of rebar stuck on the accordion....(kind of like
> those ugly Kent microphones that they used to have...at least they were
> chrome)....I'm still considering Musictech as my forst choice...???
> Len
>
You are so very "right on". I saw some wounderfull grills with nice curvy
patterns of design being cut out and a rectangular ugly panel inserted
there. That is one of the reasons I liked the Excelsior midi. They do not
approach it as a retrofit (after the fact shoe it in). The Midi was designed
as part pf a grill, and it looks nice.
I must say, as an inexperienced midi accordion guy, I wanted a unit that
will store all sorts of performance parameters, combinations, relative
volume between midi channels and so on. By the time I got the synth, I
realized it is much easier to program the synth itself to the various
setting all within a given combination. So I use the midi accordion to call
the various combinations, and even that is ussually done via a foot padle.
In other words, I could do just fine with much less of a front panel. The
Midi I have will let me control and handle all sorts of things, and store
those settings. But there is a lot of duplication, and one can set and store
in the synth as well (not all synth but very many).
So I can see how getting some midi accordion with very little midi control
switches and lights can work.
BR
Dan L
w.d.
John,
I knew long time ago that magnetic contacts are newer technology,
however, in opinion of few people who use MIDI accordions in their
trade are not exactly sure which scheme is better and more durable.
Magnetic contacts are nothing more than minute containers with minute
steel spiral springs that break even faster that regular contact -
bigger wire springs.
I have to be sure what to do since buying and installing MIDI
controllers is a serious business that could create a lot of
disappointments and dissatisfaction.
My first question to Steve or whoever may be was to find out what he
meant by touch sensitivity?
Thanks for letting us know about you skills in doing MIDI
istallations. I hope some people in this group will find it useful.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
First Christian Church of Casey, IL
I have no idea if the technology is used in accordions, but there are also
optical key sensors in the pipe organ world.
Dennis Steckley
----- Original Message ----- > I knew long time ago that magnetic contacts
are newer technology,
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/.ZSp6B/dlOFAA/46VHAA/XkLolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
To Post a message, send it to: squee...@yahoogroups.com
To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: squeezebox-...@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Marinmusic
Dan Lavry
> meant by touch sensitivity?
>
I never tried velocity sensitive midi accordion, but cerainly played with
such stuff on keyboard synth. It is not just note-on note off, it also
senses the velocity you hit the key with. Typicaly the faster, the louder.
Just like a piano. One can do more than just control loudness. Midi is very
flexible. You could even have a different instrument voice when playing fast
(with saome synth on the market)...
Unlike piano, an organ player can "get used" to pressing the keys harder
with say "more emotional music" (for example) and it does not matter. It is
not more limited, it is different. The "advantage with organ is that you can
hold the note, and the sound does not decay. The accordion is "somewhere in
between piano and organ". You do not have the attack like a piano (velocity
sensitivity), but can controll volume with the bellow (even during the
note), which is more than the organ can do. Of course, one can make a long
non decaying sound with accordions, but not as long as an organ...
For myself, I am more intrested in having the midi accordion an extention of
the acoustic instrument, thus a bellow action driven instrument. My fingures
are trained to hit the right notes and chords. Timing is importent.... but
key velocity? That is not a part of accordion technique. So I do not want
key pressure. But bellow pressure is very accordion like thing and I would
go for that. Of course one can always go for the extra features and turn
them off...
The above is my own personal preferance. I do not sugest that anyone should
see it my way.
BR
Dan L
Krazy Kanuk
I agree with you on those points Dan....but I would think that if possible,
a velocity sensitive keyboard (that you could easily turn on and off) would
be really neat for the right kinds of patches used, like piano, vibes,
guitar, drums, etc. but like you say, a trade off would be having the
control via bellows pressure....much better suited and easily played by an
accordionist.
Len
Rex Corson
>I have a Bugari 140 bass Silver that I purchased in 1996 with MIDI installed.
>The system has magnetic sensors in right hand and springs in left hand. It
>also has bellows control.
Most modern Midi systems are pretty stable. Problems can occure in
plugs and sockets inside bellows etc by not making good contact and
when this happens they need to be parted carfully, cleaned with
appropriate fluid and pluged back together again. Wires will normally
only break from their contacts where there is pressure or movment on
it so be careful when revoving grills etc. I feel your system would
be fine but it needs to be taken to someone who really knows what they
are doing to achive a satsfactory solution for you.
Midi systems like the Musictech King Major can be over kill and for
most people who have a rack mounted synth or such like where all
programing can be achived and stored through the synth, it would be
best to go for a simple midi system that will transmit on five
channels such as the Musictech O-Link or any other such like
make-model.The interface or control panels do not have to be mounted
on the grill. There are external control panels available now so
grills do not need to be mutilated. If you really wont touch
sensitiviety fully electronic would be the way to go.
Raymond R
Marinmusic
>the acoustic instrument, thus a bellow action driven instrument. My fingures
>are trained to hit the right notes and chords. Timing is importent.... but
>key velocity? That is not a part o
>key pressure. But bellow pressure is very accordion like thing and I
>would
>go for that. Of course one can always go for the extra features and turn
>them off...
>The above is my own personal preferance. I do not sugest that anyone should
>see it my way.
That is great Dan. That is a definate way to approach the use of a MIDI
accordion. I also love the accordion and often prefer playing acoustic.
However, when I play gigs, I love having the MIDI ( or digital in my case)
accordion. I can do so much more. For example, I will often sing jazz
standards while walking an upright acoustic bass in my left hand and comp in
the right hand with a great piano patch that sounds realistic with the velocity
sensitive keyboard. I like blending the acoustic accordion in and out. All of
a sudden I am a Jazz combo with a great singer :-) and it blows people away.
When I use this combination of sounds with the acoustic accordin and add a
great vibe patch (touch sensitivity makes it sound realistic) I can for example
sound like a virtual Art Van Damme group all by myself! I can work solo and
get paid more than when I play with the group! That's the best argument for a
MIDI accordion that I have every heard$$$$
When I use MIDI sounds I generally stick to keyboard and mallet instruments. I
don't like to use wind instrument patches because I think none of them sound
auhtentic on any moduleor expander. I am also a trumpet player so I sort of
bristle at the sound of a fake one.
I don't use any rythm machines, orchestra modules (like Solton and Orla) or
seqeunced music. I play everything myself so the MIDI sounds add a whole new
dimension to my sound.
Anyway, I use my MIDI accordion different than Dan. I can see our tastes in
sounds and patches might be different but both are valid uses. Hey Dan, maybe
we should play together. WIth the combination of our patches and acoustic
accordion reeds, we might sound like a whole orchestra! :-)
Steve
Dan Lavry
> However, when I play gigs, I love having the MIDI ( or digital in my
case)
> accordion. I can do so much more. For example, I will often sing jazz
> standards while walking an upright acoustic bass in my left hand and comp
in
> the right hand with a great piano patch that sounds realistic with the
velocity
> sensitive keyboard. I like blending the acoustic accordion in and out.
All of
> a sudden I am a Jazz combo with a great singer :-) and it blows people
away.
I understand what you are saying. I try similar stuff, and often "run out of
brains". The let brain is controling the RH, the right brain controlls the
LH, the middle brain balances the midi vs acoustic, the lower brain deals
with padels and combinations and midi... there is no more brain to deal with
the rest :-) Typicaly I use acoustic pass for the stradela bass rows, some
guitar for stradela chords, and some clarinet or violin or trombone for the
RH, and yes I play the acoustic and midi "in and out" together or
complementing each others. But there is much more I wish to do....
> That's the best argument for a
> MIDI accordion that I have every heard$$$$
Oh well, I just do it for fun. It is also a pretty good argument!
> When I use MIDI sounds I generally stick to keyboard and mallet
instruments. I
> don't like to use wind instrument patches because I think none of them
sound
> auhtentic on any moduleor expander. I am also a trumpet player so I sort
of
> bristle at the sound of a fake one.
I have better luck with clarinet and trombone than with say violin, but yes
I agree with your comments.
> I don't use any rythm machines, orchestra modules (like Solton and Orla)
or
> seqeunced music. I play everything myself so the MIDI sounds add a whole
new
> dimension to my sound.
I certainly share your sentiments here. No arpegios and auto chord and pre
made sequences for me either. I know some folks view a performance as
putting out a show, and that is fine. But I want to play music, not chase
some electronic metronome...
> Anyway, I use my MIDI accordion different than Dan. I can see our tastes
in
> sounds and patches might be different but both are valid uses.
Yes, our patches are different because I do little jazz and a lot of Klezmer
lately. But certainly, music has so many great styles, and so many are so
wonderfull.
I certainly respect your approach. It is, I am sure, very demanding, with
the extra dimension of velocity in the RH.
BTW, I solved my problem, and got REAL GOOD CLARINET AND VIOLIN sounds.
Better than Korg, Yamaha, Akai, Emu, Kurzweil, name it.
It did not cost me a penny!
Dan L
Krazy Kanuk
> BTW, I solved my problem, and got REAL GOOD CLARINET AND VIOLIN sounds.
> Better than Korg, Yamaha, Akai, Emu, Kurzweil, name it.
> It did not cost me a penny!
Also could folks contributing to this thread please list the sound modules
and other equipment you are using? It would be interesting to know for
instance which module produces great string or horns sounds or which module
has great piano or vibe sounds. FWIW...I've almost gotten turned off the
MIDI accordion idea when I heard some of those auto-arrangers....they've
come pretty far in the last few years but it's still a mechanical sounding
performance....I think the best use of MIDI for accordion is just a bit of
TASTEFUL augmentation, like playing perhaps one tune with an accoustic
bass/guitar strum on the stradella bass and perhaps occasionaly blending
another instrument with the right hand. This trying to sound like a whole
orchestra thing (some even try to emulate a symphony) gets tiring very
quickly.
Len
Todd Hildreth
primarily a pianist who plays keyboards when necessary. I've kept an
eye towards a reedless midi accordion for some time with the theory
that the accordion has the potential to be the ultimate midi
instrument when bellows control and touch sensitivity are both
involved.
One thing I hear a great deal on this group is that touch sensitivity
is not desirable because it's not part of standard accordion
technique. IMO this completely misses the point of MIDI. As a
pianist, if I want to play synth patches, and if I go to a synth
refusing to adapt my piano technique I'm going to sound silly on 75%
of the patches. Strings, voices, pads, organ sounds, guitar sounds,
percussion etc all require that you change or adapt your technique to
play them convincingly.
On a midi accordion the same adaptations have to be made, so to play
vibes or piano convincingly, the touch sensitivity comes into play.
But the accordion also has the bellows, to be used for swells and
other techniques that expression pedals on keyboards can't come close
to. In theory, the accordion would be far superior to a normal piano
keyboard for MIDI. It would have to be played differently than an
acoustic, but the rewards to the player and listener would be immense.
So as I continue to eye the reedless midi accordion, I would encourage
any current owners to think of there midi accordions almost as new
instruments. Simple adaptations in touch and feel and the use of
touch sensitivity can go a long way toward making new and exciting
music.
Todd
--
Krazy Kanuk
weight?....with an accoustic accordion you also get an instrument that you
can use anywhere and a very convincing accordion sound too!;-)
Len
"Todd Hildreth" <jav...@iglou.com> wrote in message
news:g4iuvuc6082pa9nu3...@4ax.com...
Dan Lavry
> > BTW, I solved my problem, and got REAL GOOD CLARINET AND VIOLIN sounds.
> > Better than Korg, Yamaha, Akai, Emu, Kurzweil, name it.
> > It did not cost me a penny!
> ....So tell us more! How? Where?
>
How? Where? I tought simeone would want to know. Well here is what I did:
I went to the local orechestra (Bainbridge Island, Wa) and talked to the
principle clarinet player, I found out she really wants to play Klezmer
music. Similar story with one of the Violin players. I have been practicing
with my friend - the drum guy... So I have real good acoustic sounds :-)
I may still get a synth, for the fun of it. But I do have the acoustics
sounds issue "under control"...
BR
Dan L
Krazy Kanuk
> How? Where? I tought simeone would want to know. Well here is what I did:
> I went to the local orechestra (Bainbridge Island, Wa) and talked to the
> principle clarinet player, I found out she really wants to play Klezmer
> music. Similar story with one of the Violin players. I have been
practicing
> with my friend - the drum guy... So I have real good acoustic sounds :-)
Of course they're not at your beck and call at all hours if you want to get
together but I guess they have very realistic sounds!
Len
Todd Hildreth
> I agree totally Todd!.....but why reedless exept for the light
> weight?....with an accoustic accordion you also get an instrument that you
> can use anywhere and a very convincing accordion sound too!;-)
> Len
I would look at a reedless purely as a midi controller with optional
accordion sounds, as opposed to an accordion with layered midi sounds.
The option down the road is to have both a reedless and an acoustic
MIDI, but they would serve two different functions.
Todd
--
Dan Lavry
> is not desirable because it's not part of standard accordion
> technique. IMO this completely misses the point of MIDI. As a
> pianist, if I want to play synth patches, and if I go to a synth
> refusing to adapt my piano technique I'm going to sound silly on 75%
> of the patches. Strings, voices, pads, organ sounds, guitar sounds,
> percussion etc all require that you change or adapt your technique to
> play them convincingly.
Well, I think your argument may hold for reedless. But midi accordion has
both the acoustic accordion and the reedless part (midi only).
Again, if you want to play reedless, I can not comment, because I do not
have ant experince with it. Nor am I attracted to reedless only (not until I
get too old for full acoustic). But when you play the acoustic part, you
should not view it as a piano, organ, keyboard synth. The first differance
between the man and the boys with accordions is good bellow actions. Those
folks (and I used to be one of them) that learned piano, than decide that
"accordion is the same but you got to blow some air" sound no better than
that!
> On a midi accordion the same adaptations have to be made, so to play
> vibes or piano convincingly, the touch sensitivity comes into play.
> But the accordion also has the bellows, to be used for swells and
> other techniques that expression pedals on keyboards can't come close
> to. In theory, the accordion would be far superior to a normal piano
> keyboard for MIDI. It would have to be played differently than an
> acoustic, but the rewards to the player and listener would be immense.
Oh well we can agree to disagree. For me, midi is a helper for the acoustic
part. I do not want to change the acoustic, just add to it.
> So as I continue to eye the reedless midi accordion, I would encourage
> any current owners to think of there midi accordions almost as new
> instruments. Simple adaptations in touch and feel and the use of
> touch sensitivity can go a long way toward making new and exciting
> music.
Again you talked about reedless and midi acordion in the same paragraph. I
would not encourage folks to do it one way or another. Certainly not without
much hands on experience doing different things. For me, when playing the
midi accordion, I use the acoustic part at as the foundation and cut midi in
to it to add some flavor. When I stop the bellows (midi only) things are not
as real or alive for me. I do it sometimes but not often.
BR
Dan L
>
> Todd
> --
>
> www.javamen.com
Jeff Lindqvist
Does anybode know how a trikitixa works? I've seen a concert with Kepa
Junkera once, but I couldn't figure out the fingerings from where I sat,
and my Spanish isn't *that* good (my Euskera is even worse) so I
couldn't really discuss it with him. He used two boxes, seemingly one
for tunes in Am (and related) and one for Bm. From the little I know
about G/C boxes and similar, it didn't really look like that, neither
did it look like C#/D or any other "Irish" tuning. Moreover, the basses
seemed to have the same notes in both directions, as opposed to the
melody notes.
Any info is appreciated.
Jeff Lindqvist
Dan Lavry
> >and talked to the
> > principle clarinet player, I found out she really wants to play Klezmer
> > music. Similar story with one of the Violin players. I have been
> practicing
> > with my friend - the drum guy... So I have real good acoustic sounds :-)
> Ah yes....real people...what a concept.
> Of course they're not at your beck and call at all hours if you want to
get
> together but I guess they have very realistic sounds!
> Len
Yes, I know. Still looking for a good synth for pracitce and fun. But I do
have something to look forward to, at least onec a week parctice with real
folks.
I am really excited.
BR
Dan L
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> I agree with you on those points Dan....but I would think that if possible,
> a velocity sensitive keyboard (that you could easily turn on and off) would
> be really neat for the right kinds of patches used, like piano, vibes,
> guitar, drums, etc. but like you say, a trade off would be having the
> control via bellows pressure.
Wire/program the instrument for both -- my suggestion would be to use
key velocity as just that, velocity, with bellows being an "aftertouch"
channel -- and then program your synths to use one, or the other, or
both in whatever combination is most expressive for *you*, for that
particular sound (and perhaps that particular arrangement) rather than
for someone else.
One nice thing about MIDI is that same action *doesn't* always have to
cause the same result!
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign
/\ Stamp out HTML mail!
geraint
news:3DFFC3D...@hotmail.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Does anybode know how a trikitixa works?
the one I tried was in "B mol" - B flat, and either Eflat or F (can't
remember). All of them in the shop were 23(ish) button 2-rows. The basses
are the same in both directions, otherwise they're the same layout as your
usual melodeon.
hwyl!
geraint.
Jeff Lindqvist
> the one I tried was in "B mol" - B flat, and either Eflat or F (can't
> remember). All of them in the shop were 23(ish) button 2-rows. The basses
> are the same in both directions, otherwise they're the same layout as your
> usual melodeon.
So that means Bb/Eb? What is the bass setup?
Jeff Lindqvist
Todd Hildreth
> "Todd Hildreth" <jav...@iglou.com> wrote in message
> news:g4iuvuc6082pa9nu3...@4ax.com...
> > One thing I hear a great deal on this group is that touch sensitivity
> > is not desirable because it's not part of standard accordion
> > technique. IMO this completely misses the point of MIDI. As a
> > pianist, if I want to play synth patches, and if I go to a synth
> > refusing to adapt my piano technique I'm going to sound silly on 75%
> > of the patches. Strings, voices, pads, organ sounds, guitar sounds,
> > percussion etc all require that you change or adapt your technique to
> > play them convincingly.
>
> Well, I think your argument may hold for reedless. But midi accordion has
> both the acoustic accordion and the reedless part (midi only).
> Again, if you want to play reedless, I can not comment, because I do not
> have ant experince with it. Nor am I attracted to reedless only (not until I
> get too old for full acoustic). But when you play the acoustic part, you
> should not view it as a piano, organ, keyboard synth. The first differance
> between the man and the boys with accordions is good bellow actions. Those
> folks (and I used to be one of them) that learned piano, than decide that
> "accordion is the same but you got to blow some air" sound no better than
> that!
My argument is simply an extension of yours. The piano is not an
organ, the organ is not a keyboard synth, a keyboard synth is not an
accordion keyboard and a MIDI accordion is more than just an
accordion.
> > On a midi accordion the same adaptations have to be made, so to play
> > vibes or piano convincingly, the touch sensitivity comes into play.
> > But the accordion also has the bellows, to be used for swells and
> > other techniques that expression pedals on keyboards can't come close
> > to. In theory, the accordion would be far superior to a normal piano
> > keyboard for MIDI. It would have to be played differently than an
> > acoustic, but the rewards to the player and listener would be immense.
>
> Oh well we can agree to disagree. For me, midi is a helper for the acoustic
> part. I do not want to change the acoustic, just add to it.
And by this you mean you program a sound to layer whatever you're
doing on the accordion. My only point is that if you want to layer or
use certain instruments, touch sensitivity is necessary, and the
standards of accordion technique can and should be expanded. All
synth modules have these sounds, so why not use them?
> > So as I continue to eye the reedless midi accordion, I would encourage
> > any current owners to think of there midi accordions almost as new
> > instruments. Simple adaptations in touch and feel and the use of
> > touch sensitivity can go a long way toward making new and exciting
> > music.
>
> Again you talked about reedless and midi acordion in the same paragraph. I
> would not encourage folks to do it one way or another. Certainly not without
> much hands on experience doing different things. For me, when playing the
> midi accordion, I use the acoustic part at as the foundation and cut midi in
> to it to add some flavor. When I stop the bellows (midi only) things are not
> as real or alive for me. I do it sometimes but not often.
MIDI and reedless accordions are two different things, and I did
border on using them interchangeably. My point with the reedless
accordion is that at least in theory, you have a far superior MIDI
controller than a synth keyboard due to the bellows (and I am thinking
convertor bass). But even with a MIDI keyboard used the way you
prefer, I think you may be missing out to not employ the touch
sensitivity as well.
Todd
--
~Dream~
> ....I want to have this MIDI system replaced with
> somthing more reliable and gig friendly.....
I would strongly advise you consider asking the people
who provide you with Concerto accordions, to retrofit your
Bugari with their MIDI system.
The reason may sound insignificant, but would actually loom
large in practice - and that is - it really will require
the identical switching system AND the identical software
analyzing the key matrix to have the same "feel" in practical
usage. So you are accustomed to the "feel" of the Concerto,
and it has become second nature. You use the appropriate
amount of force to achieve the tone you want from the MIDI
sounds. Even a hairs difference in "feel" would cause your
sound to vastly, dramatically, change.
the "Delta" is the first issue... that is, the actual space
between the first contact and the second contact in the
key-switching system. This is aside from method used
(make one break one / make one make two / etc.)
or materials (reeds, hall transistors, IR transistors,
springs, wires, etc.)
The software analyzes the delta, and outputs a value
(or series of values) which are translated into MIDI
controller data and streamed to the "tone module"
All software available today in MIDI controller "brains" are
different in their interpretation of the "delta" - based
on differing philosophies of their programmer as well as
requirements and limitations inherent in the various
key switching systems.
In short... your BEST backup system will be an identical
system.
Ciao Ventura
~Dream~
> Marinmusic wrote:
>
> I don't use any rythm machines, orchestra modules or.....seunced
> music. I play everything myself so the MIDI sounds add a whole new
> dimension to my sound.
When I use my full "MIDI" rack, controlled from Accordion,
I too play everything myself. However, over the last several
years, I find myself doing more and more gigs Strolling Acoustic,
and for these I use backing sequences performed by a KORG module.
While I love the power of MIDI, the Big Band generation
are largely gone from the earth, and who's going to
book me to play Santana or Hendrix on an accordion?
Plus, I hugely prefer to Stroll as I perform... I love
the direct connection you make with people when the
entire room is your stage... which brings us to...
> Krazy Kanuk wrote:
>
> .....but why reedless exept for the light weight?....
I predict that THIS is the year when Reedless Accordions
become a truly viable, affordable, and transparent alternative
to standard Tone Chambered full sized Piano Accordions.
I predict that you will have natural bellows control over
extremely high quality acoustic sounds that are BUILT IN
to the instrument itself. The accordion will look and
act, in all ways, exactly like an acoustic... including
the (tone) shifts. In addition, the Reedless Accordion
will be able to run ON BATTERIES, so that when coupled with
a simple Wireless Audio transmitter, you will be able
to stroll and perform
in exactly the same manner as with a normal accordion...
except the Reedless will only weigh
12 pounds or so... meaning thousands of accordionists who
had to give up standing and/or strolling when performing
due to age or back problems, will be able to escape from
the tyranny and ugliness of having to sit un-natural and
still on a chair to play, while everyone around them is
free to move and groove with the music.
THAT is why the reedless accordion will have an important
position, in future, in our world.
Ciao Ventura
Dan Lavry
> My argument is simply an extension of yours. The piano is not an
> organ, the organ is not a keyboard synth, a keyboard synth is not an
> accordion keyboard and a MIDI accordion is more than just an
> accordion.
> And by this you mean you program a sound to layer whatever you're
> doing on the accordion. My only point is that if you want to layer or
> use certain instruments, touch sensitivity is necessary, and the
> standards of accordion technique can and should be expanded. All
> synth modules have these sounds, so why not use them?
I do not wish to argue. I do not think I made my poiunt too clear so here is
another try:
I have no problems with having the added dimension of touch sensitivity. As
a matter of fact, it would be great if I could play good accordion music -
good bellow action, and on top of it some good midi sounds to go a long with
it, and than be able to modulate the velocity of the appropriate instruments
with keyboard velocity, while doing that proper bellow action. It would be
even greater if I could at thje same time be singing into a pitch to midi
converter (they do exsist) and get yet another chanel. And than I still have
my feet, so say I sit on a high stool and bang my feet on some midi drums
pads. Maybe put a pad behing my head and use it as midi kick drum?
My point? I do not have a problem with doing it all. I just do not belive
that I am capable of it. For me doing the acoustic and midi without velocity
is pretty demanding. I can walk and rub my stomack and chew gum, but that is
it. That bellow action, plus LH plus RH plus paying attention to it all is
it for me. If I try and do proper key velocity, sometyhing else will be
lost, probably the bellow action. If I try and do a real good piano key
velocity, and also try to utilize the "natural sustain" of the accordion
(hold the key down and make long note via bellows) there is a conflict
there. Yes, I guess it can be resolved. But I am only human!
I am pretty pleased with what I do, and am very ready to be extreamly
impressed if someone can do a good job of acoustic + midi + velocity + sing
+ whatever. Have not seen that much to convince me that we humans can do a
good job of it. But if you can, be my guest. I belive I recall that you
stated in the first thread that you are a keyboard player, with not much
accordion experience. So are you not setting your goals way out there in
theory land?
BR
Dan L
~Dream~
Went to Italy at the beginning of the 90's searching for
the "holy grail" in touch sensitive MIDI accordions...
(tastiere dynamica fischarmonica - I think)
anyhow, I ended up with an (somewhat unique, tonally
amazing) Excelsior model 960 MIDIVox II - (LMMMH)
primarily because the key-switching was engineered
into the design (making it extremly rugged) and the
MIDI was simple, accurate, and wickedly fast.
The Excelsior is NOT velocity sensitive
At the same time, I determined that the SOLTON/KETRON MIDI
accordion controller was the most advanced on the
market - for a Velocity Sensitive system - but it
was plagued with adjustment problems (and was off
the market within a few years). Nevertheless, I
bought the Ketron electronics with the idea I would
install it on some other accordion (an old cordovox)
for experimentation... maybe I could figure out a way to
whip the beast into shape...
it's still sitting on the shelf in a box
why? the Excelsior was so good, so natural, and so
reliable I simply spent the time playing rather
than experimenting. In fact, I ended up buying a
complete extra set of electronics for the 960
(because I always like to have back-up's ready to go)
though I've never needed to use them, and then
I picked up (used) another Excelsior MIDIVox II
(a 911 - LMMM tuned French) as a backup and alternative
to the 960 (which is heavy)
Also on my "projects" shelf is the best MIDI controller
kit made by MASTER this century (which means it's possibly
the best MIDI kit made in the world) but I haven't gotten around
to putting THAT into anything either <grin>
Bear in mind that a really good acoustic accordion has a
very short key travel. It is difficult to achieve control
over a wide range of dynamics in this short range of motion.
Reedless accordions tend to have a bit deeper key travel by
design. Also, velocity is applied per-note, and should not be
confused with aftertouch dynamics (which is implemented
on many professional flat key-board controllers, and is
generally a better way to apply "feel" to horns, strings,
etc. as "modulation" of various types is applied globally
through "aftertouch" more like the way the Joystick
applies variations (but your hands stay on the keys)
Anyhow... anyone wanting to experiment with velocity sensitive
MIDI kits is welcome to offer me something in trade for
the KETRON kit - I doubt I'll ever use it - though the parts
might come in handy someday for something else - but it
should work fine. it is spring contacts, and will require
weeks of delicate adjustments to get the thing installed right.
the MASTER kit is either spring or vacuum encapsulated
reed switches (choice... configures either way) but I'll
probably use that one eventually in this Scandalli sitting
over here on the shelf...
Ciao Ventura
Carl
accordion. BUT nobody has complained yet, in fact most people say that this
is the best sounding accordion that they have ever heard. Crazy!! Not only
that but I am getting more popular by the month. This month 17 gigs. I
have been playing accordion for over 65 years, most of it with a HEAVY
accoustic accordion. Now I am having fun and my audience is enjoying it
also. If you are a purest, then you want the PURE accoustic accordion
sounds. Me, it doesn't make any difference. I just play and let them
enjoy.
Carl
geraint
(Spanish) overview on the instrument (and superb picture!) at:
http://www.eurofisa.com/sobreacordeon/sobrediatonicas.htm
The guy in the shop told me that all trikitixas are made in Italy or France
these days - so there may be a fingering chart on a manufacturers site
somewhere (Castagnari make one, but no chart - Dino Bafetti and Paolo
Sorpani make them too).
Shame they're in Bb - if it was in something a bit more useful, I would have
got one!
hwyl!
geraint.
Todd Hildreth
> I am pretty pleased with what I do, and am very ready to be extreamly
> impressed if someone can do a good job of acoustic + midi + velocity + sing
> + whatever. Have not seen that much to convince me that we humans can do a
> good job of it. But if you can, be my guest. I belive I recall that you
> stated in the first thread that you are a keyboard player, with not much
> accordion experience. So are you not setting your goals way out there in
> theory land?
>
> BR
>
> Dan L
Well, I said I am a pianist and keyboardist first and an accordionist
second. I came back to the accordion (my first instrument) a few
years back after hearing a local classical accordion ensemble that
included my old teacher. I play with them now and use the accordion
for certain tunes in a group I play with, and on scattered recording
sessions.
I truly didn't mean to sound judgmental in my comments. Obviously no
one has the time or inclination to explore every possibility in the
world with their instruments. And obviously as a pianist, touch
sensitivity would be very easy for me to incorporate pretty much
immediately on a MIDI accordion.
I do feel still that to get the best out of MIDI, certain adaptations
in technique will maximize the possibilities. Keyboardists have
understood this from the get go.
But each player knows what they want to achieve, and I as a free bass
system player will probably never get around to doing all the things
that Steve N or some other folks on this group do with regularity on
free bass. I don't hear or want to do all those things, so I work on
what I want. You're doing the same in your set up, and it all really
comes down to what we want.
So, if I came off as telling you how to play or anything like that, it
wasn't my original intention. I know how I would like to do it, and
should probably just leave it at that.
Todd
--
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> My point? I do not have a problem with doing it all. I just do not belive
> that I am capable of it.
I suspect that it would come fairly intuitively, if the right mappings
were set up. I know that I *did* pound the PA keyboard more heavily when
I was feeling emphatic, despite knowing that it made no difference to
the instrument; that's just the way some of us are wired. I suspect that
if it was making a difference in the sound, I'd slowly learn to control it.
After all, so many of the other bits of coordination involved in playing
an instrument start as having to be thought about and slowly become
instinctive... and one nice thing about MIDI is that you can process the
signal a bit, to compensate somewhat for initial lack of control.
Jeff Lindqvist
> Can't remember exactly.....
>
> (Spanish) overview on the instrument (and superb picture!) at:
> http://www.eurofisa.com/sobreacordeon/sobrediatonicas.htm
Thanks for the link - it gives me an oppirtunity to practice my Spanish:)
> The guy in the shop told me that all trikitixas are made in Italy or France
> these days - so there may be a fingering chart on a manufacturers site
> somewhere (Castagnari make one, but no chart - Dino Bafetti and Paolo
> Sorpani make them too).
I'd better have a look...
Hwyl fawr,
Jeff Lindqvist
Dan Lavry
> So, if I came off as telling you how to play or anything like that, it
> wasn't my original intention. I know how I would like to do it, and
> should probably just leave it at that.
>
> Todd
Oh no, you did not offend me at all. I agree with some of what you said,
disagree with some, but it was cool.
BR
Dan L
Macromed5
> become a truly viable, affordable, and transparent alternative
> to standard Tone Chambered full sized Piano Accordions.
> I predict that you will have natural bellows control over
> able to run ON BATTERIES... coupled with a simple
> Wireless Audio transmitter... only weigh 12 pounds or so....
If you've got an "in" with someone, have 'em make a converter
CBA too, okay? ;-)
Regards,
John Dowdell
John Dowdell, Macromedia Tech Support, San Francisco CA US
Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Public forums have first claim on support hours -- for private email,
see Priority Access at http://www.macromedia.com/support/
~Dream~
Carl wrote:
>
>> If you are a purest, then you want the PURE accoustic accordion
> sounds. Me, it doesn't make any difference. I just play and let them
> enjoy.
yes, yes... the difference between playing for self-centered
reasons and playing to give something to others.
if it sounds great to the average Joe or Jane
in the audience, you succeed. How many of these
"Purists" would even be able to tell from a room away
if you have Handmade reeds in a Vintage Super 6
or your well programmed reedless?
Ciao Ventura
~Dream~
> Bear in mind that a really good acoustic accordion has a
> very short key travel. It is difficult to achieve control
> over a wide range of dynamics in this short range of motion.
thinking further, consider (regarding switching systems)
that it is not particularly "natural" either to have to
depress the key to it's fullest depth in order to have a note
sound... in other words, if you recall the touch of a
Hammond, or a Cordovox for that matter, the electronic sound
is activated at slightly past the halfway mark.
You can tread lightly on the Piano keys and get sound too
But if you have a short throw key like the Accordion,
for a velocity sensing system, you must have the forst
contact activate almost immediately, then the second
almost at the very bottom of the key travel. (to get the
maximum possible expression) Set up like this, if you switch
the velocity to "off" then which single contact will you
use for the trigger now? Either one will feel a bit
un-natural in it's relative placement.
Deep throw synth keyboards don't have to bottom out for
velocity (only for aftertouch)
Also, regarding switching systems hardware, each seems to
have certain strengths... and none is a clear technological
willer at this point in time... but all work.
the photo or light sensitive transistor/diode certainly
has great potential. if you can get your hands on the
type that has the emitter and reciever on opposite sides
of a small channel, and if that channel will just fit the
width of the flatted key-arm in your accordion, you have
a winner. But can you guarantee that in all situations
ambient light will never cause false triggering? Could we
mount small sensors inside the baffle, below the key-pads?
Pad lifts - pad lets light in - note is on?
Glass encapsulated reed switches are a bit more reliable
than spring switches... less "bounce"... no tarnishing...
Hall effect transistors have no moving parts, and should
last virtually forever without noticable deterioration
of performance.
Good old springs can be incredibly reliable if installed
well... it takes a good circuit to support them
and immunize the system against bounce... eazy to
troubleshoot, repair and maintain.
Ciao Ventura
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> But if you have a short throw key like the Accordion,
> for a velocity sensing system, you must have the forst
> contact activate almost immediately, then the second
> almost at the very bottom of the key travel. (to get the
> maximum possible expression)
Or run the travel-time counter on a faster clock than in the past so you
measure the shorter time more accurately... which is pretty trivial with
today's electronics. (Admittedly this also means more risk of
manufacturing variation, but that can be factored out programmatically
-- again, much easier than it used to be.)
Remember, we'd be using velocity only as a stand-in for how hard the key
was hit, because it's cheaper and easier to measure the time between
break and make of two contacts than to try to put a strain-gauge on
every key. As long as what we're measuring is a reasonable analog of
what the user is trying to do, it's probably good enough to be useful.
> But can you guarantee that in all situations
> ambient light will never cause false triggering?
That's a matter of picking your threshhold. Besides, it's going to be
behind the grille. (Cue Groucho Marks: "Outside of a dog, a book is
man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.")
Dan Lavry
news:3E06A79A...@worldnet.att.net...
> Hello Carl,
>
> Carl wrote:
> >
> >> If you are a purest, then you want the PURE accoustic accordion
> > sounds. Me, it doesn't make any difference. I just play and let them
> > enjoy.
>
> yes, yes... the difference between playing for self-centered
> reasons and playing to give something to others.
Well, I do on ocasion give things to others. It may be a finacial donation,
books, and so on... I will be first to admit that when I play music, while
it is nice to give things to others, it is not the formost thing on my mind.
Often, it can be the difference between making a living at it vs. playing
for fun. But not always. It can also be that dedication to raising the music
as high as possible\ takes first place. I belive such is the case foer a
number of world renound artists. Some realy thrive on the feedback from
audience, other "shut their eys" and "become one" with the music.
> if it sounds great to the average Joe or Jane
> in the audience, you succeed. How many of these
> "Purists" would even be able to tell from a room away
> if you have Handmade reeds in a Vintage Super 6
> or your well programmed reedless?
Really, my friend, think about it. You set your standard at the "average Joe
or Jane in the audience"? Why not drop the accordion, wear those baggy pans,
perhaps some of the heavy gold chains (the rapers call it bling bling), and
say "yo mama yo mama..." The audience may be wider for that:-(
I am for having the artists bring the audience up. If you go down to the
level of average Joe, we will all spiral down at an ever escalating rate...
Is it not already happening? :-(
BR
Dan L
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Really, my friend, think about it. You set your standard at the "average Joe
> or Jane in the audience"? Why not drop the accordion, wear those baggy pans,
There's a huge range between performing for the barflies who can't tell
what they're hearing and don't care since they can't drink it,
performing for the folks who want good background music, performing for
the folks who want something they can dance to, performing for the folks
who are actually there to listen to the music...
... and, going out the other end of that range, performing for the snobs
who care more about whether the music is traditional than whether it's good.
> I am for having the artists bring the audience up.
Absolutely. You do that by performing good music. What tools you use to
achieve that goal is a matter of personal taste.
~Dream~
> Dan Lavry wrote:
> > Really, my friend, think about it. You set your standard at the
> > "average Joe or Jane in the audience"?
on the contrary... you know from past posts I consider
myself to be in competition NOT with other accordionists,
or accordion brands, but with Disney studios and Lucas films
and NEVE workstations and Bose systems and any and everything
ELSE that raises the bar for quality of Sound and excitement
of performance.
the "Average Joe or Jane" you dismiss takes digital quality
sound for granted today... is fast becoming accustomed
to (and is spending thousands of dollars on in their
Family rooms) 5.1 surround sound and sub-woofers, etc.
the average person has such a high basic threshold of
inbred taste regarding sound quality that I should
say "woe is the Musician" who imagines his antique
audio technology to be useful beyond the basement.
Automobiles come standard with CD players and audio
systems with less distortion (if you added them all
up for the entire model year 2002) than a single
Cordovox produced on it's best day.
Sn ratios on home entertainment systems is over
94 db on even the cheap models... and someone wants
to sell us a passive "fake pre-amp" system for our
microphones to use professionally?
Cheap home speaker systems come with Titanium tweeters
and we still get sold open-backed Amps with
one round speaker and maybe one Piezo tweeter?
personally, I believe Joe and Jane can tell the difference.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam) wrote:
> There's a huge range between performing for the barflies who can't tell
> what they're hearing and don't care since they can't drink it,
> performing for the folks who want good background music, performing for
> the folks who want something they can dance to, performing for the folks
> who are actually there to listen to the music...
>
> ... and, going out the other end of that range, performing for the snobs
> who care more about whether the music is traditional than whether it's good.
nicely put
Ciao Ventura
~Dream~
>
> I will be first to admit that when I play music, while
> it is nice to give things to others,
> it is not the formost thing on my mind.
> renound artists. Some really thrive on the feedback from
> audience, other "shut their eyes" and "become one" with the music.
Quite true, and certainly useful - especially when setting
benchmarks for others to aspire to. There are times
and songs when, on stage, I close my eyes and focus
so completely inward that you could likely knock me over
with a finger.
but at heart, at the end of the evening, to have a
thought and feeling for what you've left them, as a
measure of your own true accomplishment is where
I feel the soul of the performer lies.
Certainly, you are aware of brilliant technical
performances or flights of incredible improvization
that leave the audience feeling empty and confused?
Better to stay in the bedroom and play to the wall if
that is all the empathy one can muster. I've said it
before... to be totally self-centered as a musician
leaves nothing more than a life of musical masturbation...
and that is beyond my ken
Ciao Ventura
~Dream~
>
> > But if you have a short throw key like the Accordion.......
>
> Or run the travel-time counter on a faster clock than in the past so you
> measure the shorter time more accurately... which is pretty trivial with
> today's electronics.
yes - though I percieve a "finite limit" of the brain
and fingers to control the range of acceleration if the
linear physical space is reduced... however fast we
clock it.
Ciao Ventura
Dan Lavry
> Hi Dan, Hi Joe,
>
> > Dan Lavry wrote:
> > > Really, my friend, think about it. You set your standard at the
> > > "average Joe or Jane in the audience"?
>
> sound for granted today... is fast becoming accustomed
> to (and is spending thousands of dollars on in their
> Family rooms) 5.1 surround sound and sub-woofers, etc.
I could not disagree with you more on that point. The "avarage Joe" used to
spend a few hundreds or perhapse a bit more on a stereo system - 2 CH
amplification plus 2 speakers. And that was yesterday's money, when a grand
was a lot of money. Today, the avarage Joe is spending significantly less
(in real noney) on 5 ch systems. In fact, you go to many stores and see a
whole bunch of under $1000 5ch systems. Often as loew as $300! So how do you
get 5 speakers and a 5Ch amp, and a DVD player and home theater and MP3
player and Dolby soround and carrot slicer and electric shaver into one
package? Look at those speakers. Look at the amp, player... The speakers are
often worst junk than that plastic crap that goes with cheap computers! That
is how you get to sell "the avarage Joe" home theater.
And frankly, while there are a few folks with more means spending thousands
on DVD and soround, it does not mean that any of them are more dicrening,
aware, artistic or anything else than folks that own a good stereo. Do you
know how many DVD audio releases are coming out in say the next 3 month? The
last 3 month? Near zero! It is all about overwhelming the customer with
sound from all directions, just like in the movie house. Shwartzneger and
Stelone and explosive stuff. Lots of bang bang and special effects, and "the
louder, the better".
Do you know we are growing a generation with hearing problems? It is not
just my opinion. It is not an opinion at all. It is a fact, well measured
and documented. Tlak to the high school principle about lowering volume at
the prom... I did, with a sorts of credible documentations. They did not
have the guts to stand up and take the unpopular stand. Why is that? Don't
want to be "uncool"?
The "avarage Joe" is being talked out hundreds, buying gear capable of
playing from dolby to thx to dts to mp3 to cd to dvd to dsd... all way
before any of those standards are accepted or even suported. The only winner
is DVD VIDEO.
Folks are moving to suround sound without a clue why, just like a herd of
cows - more is better, newer is better... I am not against suround, there is
a time and place for it. But Avarage Joe buying soround is not an indication
of more demanding customers!
> the average person has such a high basic threshold of
> inbred taste regarding sound quality that I should
> say "woe is the Musician" who imagines his antique
> audio technology to be useful beyond the basement.
Yes, compare to 10 years ago, the expectation is to have lower noise floor.
But the ability of avarage Joe to tell distortion has gone to hell all
together!
> Sn ratios on home entertainment systems is over
> 94 db on even the cheap models... and someone wants
> to sell us a passive "fake pre-amp" system for our
> microphones to use professionally?
In theory it is over 96dB. Never on the cheap models! Not true! Lots of
stuff in the 70-80dB. But that is only one spec. I do agree that the avarage
CD player is much better that the avarage cassete tape. I also agree that
there is no such thing as passive amplification of power.
> Cheap home speaker systems come with Titanium tweeters
> and we still get sold open-backed Amps with
> one round speaker and maybe one Piezo tweeter?
>
> personally, I believe Joe and Jane can tell the difference.
Do you think the avarage Joe shops at high end stereophile stores? The
avarage Joe buys at Best Buy, maybe even Walmart. The Avarage Joe never had
a chance to listen to that Piezo and similar cheap junk.
You talked about "pleasing Joe and Jane". You are talking about "telling a
difference". That is a radical change.
Tell the difference between what and what? Anyone can tell the difference
between say sound coming out of a speaker vs acoustic. I thought the subject
at hand was about the overall performance. You said that pleasing the
avarage is a sucsess. I called it lowered expectations. I must be missing
something. Is it my English? I thought that pleasing the avarage = half the
folks said it is OK. Or pleasing the avarage = almost everyone thought is
was sort of OK, not bad, not good, just OK.
You are sort of saying that the avarge is not avarage???
BR
Dan L
Helen P.
music sounds good or bad, BUT THEY DON"T KNOW WHY. It's "I don't know Art,
but I know what I like" at work.
For example, they have been a lot of times when I've been at an earlier
event, and arrived at a folk dance halfway though. The sound guys have been
working on the balance for about an hour, and still haven't figured out why
it's not quite right. The dancers applaud nicely, but without much
enthusiasm.
For some reason, I've got the knack for hearing what needs fixing. If my
suggested adjustments are made, the dancers will suddenly start clapping or
stomping during the dance, dancing with more energy, and applauding wildly.
Meanwhile, the music itself becomes better and more "together", since the
musicians get better visual feedback from the dancers, and they can also
hear their own playing more clearly.
So, apparently no one else in that room (sounds techs, musicians, etc.)
could figure out the problem, yet almost everyone in the room knew that the
music improved.
I think that's typical of nearly all audiences. Always assume that anyone
can tell good vs. bad in your playing.
It's also a lot safer assumption than the reverse...
-- Helen
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Actually, I usually find that most people are pretty good at hearing whether
> music sounds good or bad, BUT THEY DON"T KNOW WHY. It's "I don't know Art,
> but I know what I like" at work.
I've observed the same effect when working sound, for what it's worth.
Good observation.
Having said that: A good performance reproduced poorly is likely to
please the audience more than a mediocre performance rendered perfectly.
(Which is why music survives on AM radio and cheap cassette decks, and
why the best 78RPM records are still listenable despite the surface
noise...) And music sounding good, and sounding traditional, can be two
different things depending on your audience. So I'm not sure how
strongly Helen's comment intersects with the subject of MIDI accordions.
It's usually harder to perform well on a lower-quality instrument... but
not impossible.
Dan Lavry
news:3e19d...@news1.prserv.net...
> Helen P. wrote:
> > Actually, I usually find that most people are pretty good at hearing
whether
> > music sounds good or bad, BUT THEY DON"T KNOW WHY. It's "I don't know
Art,
> > but I know what I like" at work.
>
> I've observed the same effect when working sound, for what it's worth.
> Good observation.
>
> Having said that: A good performance reproduced poorly is likely to
> please the audience more than a mediocre performance rendered perfectly.
That is true.
> (Which is why music survives on AM radio and cheap cassette decks, and
> why the best 78RPM records are still listenable despite the surface
> noise...) And music sounding good, and sounding traditional, can be two
> different things depending on your audience.
For whatever it's worth, I do not listen to AM radio, cheap cassets and
78... Even when in the car I will listen to CD's but not the radio.
How many do I represent. I am not sure. Do not assume you know the answer,
unless you have some good market research regardless how many folks decline
listning to poor sound...
>So I'm not sure how
> strongly Helen's comment intersects with the subject of MIDI accordions.
> It's usually harder to perform well on a lower-quality instrument... but
> not impossible.
Yes, and we have been there before... Frank M. on a mediocare instrument
will be greatly better than some pretty good player on the best instrument.
But Frank does not play a bad instrument, nor does Perlman, YoYo Ma... They
all go for a good instrument, if not the best.
So I agree with Helen that the sound has to be taken care of. Just because
the player is the most importent thing, does not mean that other aspects
should not be catred for as much as possible...
BR
Dan L
rpen...@gmail.com
Bob
Ike Milligan
> I am new to Music Tech accordion. A stupid question, but can anyone tell me where I can get a simple list of all the instrument voices available.....with the numbers to program them. Thank you
> Bob
>
list would be with your MIDI setup, like in the software that comes with
the hardware.
Alan Sharkis
>I am new to Music Tech accordion. A stupid question, but can anyone tell me where I can get a simple list of all the instrument voices available.....with the numbers to program them. Thank you
>Bob
documentation on all accordions. The last time I looked at Music
Tech's site (years ago) those lists were posted at the site. I don't
know if you have a newer model or an older one, but try that site
first.
I hope this helps.
Alan Sharkis
Len Killick
> I am new to Music Tech accordion. A stupid question, but can anyone tell me where I can get a simple list of all the instrument voices available.....with the numbers to program them. Thank you
> Bob
http://www.musictech-midi.it/eng
If you can't find what you need send them an e-mail (in english) they are very helpful.
