Why do they go "out of tune"??
Norm
What makes an accordion go out of tune?? I don't mean "dampness" or
"improper handeling"...I'd like to know "what's actually happening to
make the reed not sound the same"?? It seems to me that one should be
able to order a reed tuned to the proper pitch, and that it wouldn't
change while installing it also...But I'm learning (by reading) that
such is not the case. Do the leathers or the wax alter a reeds pitch??
Sorry if this has been asked a lot, but I've only recently discovered
you guys. Thanks for any guidance on the subject. I have an old 4/5
Italian "Francini", that's now in wonderful shape (so good that I wish
I didn't buy my new parrot), and the only thing I'd like to have
different is "mussete"...I was considering installing musette reeds
myself, but obviously have some learning yet. I'm a mech by trade, and
have had all my accordions apart numerous times, so "mechanically" I
have no problems...Reed tuning, however, is a mystery (for now). I
have a couple of "junkers" that I intend to "hack at" ...Thanks.
Norm
My Projects:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bigblock/page1.shtml
Jack J. Woehr
> What makes an accordion go out of tune?? I don't mean "dampness" or
> "improper handeling"...I'd like to know "what's actually happening to
> make the reed not sound the same"??
Metal fatigue, along with everything else you said, and adding cigarette
smoke buildup.
--
Jack J. Woehr # Ceterum censeo
PO Box 51, Golden, CO 80402 # in herbas belli
http://www.softwoehr.com # ab idem desistamus.
Theodore Kloba
> What makes an accordion go out of tune?? I don't mean "dampness" or
> "improper handeling"...I'd like to know "what's actually happening to
> make the reed not sound the same"?? It seems to me that one should be
> able to order a reed tuned to the proper pitch, and that it wouldn't
> change while installing it also...But I'm learning (by reading) that
> such is not the case. Do the leathers or the wax alter a reeds pitch??
There are a lot of variables that affect the pitch. Aside from the
physical properties of the reed, it has a lot to do with the air flow
patterns inside the reedblock and through the valveboard openings.
Thus, the only way to accurately "pre-tune" a reed is to tune it while
it is on an identical reedblock, which is attached to an identical
valveboard.
> Sorry if this has been asked a lot, but I've only recently discovered
> you guys. Thanks for any guidance on the subject. I have an old 4/5
> Italian "Francini", that's now in wonderful shape (so good that I wish
> I didn't buy my new parrot), and the only thing I'd like to have
> different is "mussete"...I was considering installing musette reeds
> myself, but obviously have some learning yet.
It would be a lot easier and less expensive to have it re-tuned musette.
--
Theodore M. Kloba * hey...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/
http://www.mp3.com/boxman/
DoN. Nichols
Jack J. Woehr <jwo...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Norm wrote:
>
>> What makes an accordion go out of tune?? I don't mean "dampness" or
>> "improper handeling"...I'd like to know "what's actually happening to
>> make the reed not sound the same"??
>
>Metal fatigue, along with everything else you said, and adding cigarette
>smoke buildup.
Yes -- the metal fatigue in particular in a brass-reeded
instrument.
In steel reeds, other factors are rust, rust, and rust. (Yes, I know
that I said that three times -- because it has three different effects.
1) The rust reduces the thickness of the part of the reed which
contributes most to the spring constant which restores the
reed to position after it is deflected by airflow. This lowers
the pitch.
2) The rust which accumulates nearer the tip of the reed weighs more
than the iron which it replaces (the iron being a major
component in the steel which constitutes the reed). It weighs
more because it has been combined with oxygen, which adds to
the mass.
This also lowers the pitch -- until enough accumulates so it
starts to flake off, at which point the pitch can go sharp.
3) Rust along the edge of the reed can either totally prevent the
swing of the reed, locking it in place, and thus silencing it,
*or* can build up between the the edge and the reed plate
(accordion) or carrier (English construction* concertina),
near the root (fixed end of the reed), thus effectively
shortening the free length of the reed, and thus raising the
pitch.
Yes -- all three come from damp, so they may have been excluded by
the OP's (Original Poster's) conditions list. :-)
In addition to these effects -- the dimensions of the reed
chamber shift the pitch somewhat -- enough so if you interchange the
reeds for press vs draw on an English construction concertina, you will
have a shift in pitch on each reed, because the one is more enclosed by
the chamber than the other.
I presume that this same effect occurs on an accordion's reeds
(which share a common plate for the press vs draw), because they are
marked with a diagonal scratch at one corner to indicate the side which
should face out from the reed block.
I have been told that the "skins", "valves", or "leathers" which
prevent reverse flow through the reed which should not be sounding of a
pair can shift the pitch as it stiffens with age. This is I think most
obvious in an accordion as they are closer to the reed than an English
construction concertina.
*) English construction -- to distinguish concertinas built according to
the practices in England -- English system, Anglo system, and
the various duet systems from concertina built using accordion
technology -- with two (or more) reeds sharing a single metal
plate.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Helen P.
and play it often (but not around smoke or high humidity).
Over time, are the reeds most likely to go flat, sharp, or a mixture?
-- Helen
Johann Pascher
Hi Donald Nichols!
I do agree with everything you explain!
I also would even say on higher tones (plates)
The position of the reed on the reedblock moves the pitch of the reed.
So it is important to tune the inner reed on the reedblock. Without taking it of.
Lower tones get also a gange on pith with the resonanc of the Instrument.
The grill cover on the basssystem can change the pitch. If a resonazechamber is created.
Resonance has an impact on the pith!
In case you tune tow reeds unison each reed the same ton,
Both together, the pith increases by nearly 10 cents, if the are located close to each anther. (Coupling of the tow reeds accurse)
I do have a page about tuning reeds:
If someone is Interested. But it is in German language.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/Stimmen.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 1:24 AM
Subject: SML: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
Enjoy,
DoN.
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Johann Pascher
Hi Hellen!
Over time some reed tongues move in pith, but good reed should keep their pitch. Even there is no rust or dust on the reeds.
The reed tongue is mounted on the ground plate with a revert. And the revert can get a bit louse through playing, what it really should not.
And also if it does not get loose on the end where it is mounted to the ground plate it touches more or less the ground plate and it gets a little more free room to move over time, when it is played. Some reed in the past where also glued to the ground plate too.
And new reeds one must pull first very strong after mounting the tongue, otherwise the tone would not keep the seam the first time.
If the tone moves much in pith, the tongue will fall in parts soon.
It already has small cats and it is to replace. If a tongue fall a part by pulling on it was already broken before pulling on it.
Johann
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:06 AM
Subject: SML: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
Really-From: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
-- Helen
First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois
Yes, Helen! <gdr>
Dennis Steckley
Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in
the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who
are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:06 AM
Subject: SML: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
Really-From: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
Ok, say you have a "perfectly" tuned piano accordion. You treat it
-- Helen
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Bjcomm9615
use?
What solvent do you use for final cleaning?
Do you coat the reed with anything to prevent future rust?
thanks
Brian
DoN. Nichols
I don't like that idea. Naval jelly's active ingredient is
phosphoric acid, and since you have three dissimilar metals in firm
electrical contact (hardened steel reed, mild steel rivet, and aluminum
or zinc plate) , you will get electrolytic reactions which will attack
the highest activity of the materials -- the aluminum or zinc, I would
expect.
> What solvents do most tuners
>use?
I would probably *not* use any cleaning on accordion reeds,
(at least with any significant amount of rust) as they are usually
sounded in pairs, threes, or fours, and any change to the material would
be likely to cause the pitch shift with varying bellows pressure to no
longer track, so quiet or loud passages would have out-of-tune reeds,
even if they were in tune at medium bellows pressure. I think that
replacement is the proper choice with accordions. I don't work on them,
so this is supposition.
As for concertina reeds, as they normally are not sounded in
groups, is is possible to recover a reed from a significant amount of
rust. Here, the metals are steel (or brass) reeds and brass (or
aluminum) reed carriers, with steel screws securing a clamping bar over
the root of the reed.
My approach to removing rust is manual scraping -- with a fairly
hard jeweler's screwdriver blade, while the reed is supported from the
other side. Scraping along the edges is also frequently needed.
>What solvent do you use for final cleaning?
A blast of compressed air, to carry off all of the particles.
>Do you coat the reed with anything to prevent future rust?
No -- because anything that is practical in production will
evaporate over time, and the evaporation will change the mass, and
detune the reed.
Tuning would remove the coating, exposing it to rust again.
If it were not for the tuning, I would consider an electroplate
of gold, or perhaps (from modern machine-tool technology) a coating of
TiN (Titanium Nitride, not the metal "tin"). This is the gold colored
coating which is found on machine tool bits -- drills, milling cutters,
carbide inserts for lathe tools, and such. Its primary function is to
provide a sliding surface resistant to wear for the chips to flow from
the cutting edge -- but it happens to protect against rust as well.
(Note that a coating of TiN -- sometimes mis-called just "titanium" does
not mean a quality tool. It is a cheap enough process so it is often
used over cheap tools of poor-quality metal to make them sell better
based on appearance. :-) But, the final tuning would remove the
protective layer in spots, and you would then be back where you were to
start with. If it were not for the need to tune, it would be best to
coat the reed before mounting in the plate or carrier.
Squeeze On,
Dennis Hoshield
DISCLAIMER:
I'll go on record, first, by stating that I'm more of a 'hobbiest'
repair person than a 'schooled, trained, and learned scholar' of
accordion repair or tuning ...
CLEANING & TUNING OF REEDS
I have steered away from any chemical cleaning of reeds, and have stuck
to mechanical light scraping, for the same reasons listed by at least
Don Nichols and others. I certainly agree with all the technical
reasons.
I have occasionally resorted to a LIGHT dusting with a wire-brushed
dremmel tool, that I would really considder more of a 'hackers' tool. I
usually stick to a couple modified tools that I use for scraping, one
being a sharepend, but flat and squared edged tool, and another bing a
common small X-acto knive (brand name here in the states), similar to a
surgeon's pointed scapel. I scrape as much rust of as possible,
supporting the reed in both directions, and use the X-acto for scraping
the edges and tips of the reeds. Occasionally the tip of the reeds may
need to be 'dressed' with a very fine file or sandpaper, to get the reed
to clear it's slot in the plate. I clean just enough to get the reed
back to a useable state, and to allow proper sealing on the reedblock
either mechanically, or with beeswax. Compressed air is my friend to ..
'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly. I'd like to
find a good way to re-fill standard canned air cans. Seems like this is
possible, and I even think I've seen it done before, but currently, I
just take the reeds out to the garage, and blow out with the air
compressor.
I seldom tune a box back to 'true' ... 440, or whatever. I take the
average of a given reed set's 'low'tuned reeds, for example (how many
cents flat or sharp), and tune to the average (not including the
obviously WAY out reeds) .. Assuming, for the most part that the average
is most likely close to it's original tuning. I do the same for all
sets of reeds .. Middle, high, etc. I then go through again with
multiple passes, tuning, if possible, the reeds against each other of
the same note, attempting to match the overall musette (if any) of the
reeds, then make a few more passes putting different reed groups
together (usually have to do this with an assymbled box), to make sure
3rds, 5th,s and other intervals sound proper. I have never had a
complaint on a box I've tuned. Granted .. If a box is for use as a
professional instrument, to be used in a band, needing proper tuning,
etc, I would most likely attempt to get the box back to a standard, but
being the type of small-town repairman that I am ... I get VERY few of
these. One customer actually wanted me to DE-tune his box, so it WASN'T
standard pitch. I wouldn't tune Frankie Yankovic's favorite box this
way, but for the average user with a 30 year old box, banging around at
home .. Or even the button box that I would personally play on stage,
this method seems to work quite well.
I've run across a number of boxes that were '1/2'tuned. They were tuned
a 1/4 step off of standard 440 .. Across the board. I assume this might
be so the box couldn't be used in a group .. Actually, more to the point
.. The player probably didn't want anyone coming up and attempting to
'jam' with him .. He probably wanted to be a soloist! Pure conjecture,
on my part.
Reed clearance, or lack of it .. Because of rust, dirt, bad or loosened
reed pining, etc, and reed leathers are the 2nd biggest problem when it
comes to a properly 'speaking' (or is that 'singing'?) reed. Reeds need
to have sufficient clearance it it's tounge slot to allow air through,
and to keep the reed from getting stuck, or even toutching the sides. A
stuck reed is obvoius, but one that has a loose mounting pin, or is
slightly cocked in it's slot is a bit tougher, as the problem these
issues cause aren't allways consistent.
There was a sprayable chemical that was available for computer contacts,
that supposedlly kept the tin and gold contacts on connectors from
getting crapped up, that I allways thought might be an item to try on
reeds to keep them from rusting, or coroding again, but I am pretty
skeptical of even that. Best to not put anything on the reeds, as
WHATEVER you put on them will alter it's tuning (seems to me), and might
have adverse effects in the long run. Plus .. You still want the reed
leathers to be securely glued to the reed plate, and that would most
likely be done after whatever treatment you would attempt to put on the
reeds. Reeds will last a LONG time, in proper conditions. The only
reeds I've seen get rusted up, are on boxes that have been stored
improperly .. Or were REALLY cheap reeds to begin with.
TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
By the way .. I don't have a fancy tuning bench (as you might imagine by
now). If I did .. I would probably be more anal (excuse me ...
Accurate) in my tuning. I have a solid, but old set of bellows with
1/2" plywood on both sides, attatched like a bellows frame typically is
on an accordion, with leather strip gasket, an an inner 1/4" or 3/8"
square stock frame to screw the bellows frame to. Bottom is 1" larger
all the way around the bellows, to attatch with C-clamps to my bench (so
it's portable), and 2" longer and wider on the top, so I have a handle
grasp when operating the bellows. The top is covered with automotive
cork gasket material. I'd rather use leather, but the cork was handy,
and cheape, and I thought it might hold up better. It has held up very
well for over 4 years of use. I've cut a slightly rectangular hole in
the center of the top plate, through the cork cover and plywood,
slightly smaller than the average reed block air hole, and just slide
the reed block back and fourth over the hole to get air to whatever reed
(or reeds) I'm working on.
Sorry for the ramble .. I figgured I've been listening long enough ..
Time to contribute SOMETHING!
Dennis Hoshield
www.YOURAccordion.com
www.SteirischeHarmonika.com
dh...@youraccordion.com
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: SML: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <20030313122609...@mb-cp.news.cs.com>,
Norm
now than before. Anybody care to enlighten me further, by explaining
how someone tunes an existing set of reeds to "musette"?? I'm falling
in love with these instruments more each day, and really appreciate
the help, when it comes to learning more about them. Thanks again.
Norm
Dennis Hoshield
There are some pretty specific formulas for how many 'cents' difference
there should be between a given pair(or more) of reeds for a given note,
at what octave, etc (it's not consitent from low to upper octaves).
However it all comes down to what sounds good. It's a bit different
from one set of reeds to another, what box they are in, etc.
Basically, you need at least 2 reeds per note for musette, as a musette
sound is based on how far appart 2 reeds are from each other,
pitch-wize. The father appart they are tuned (one flat, relative to the
other), then the more 'musette', or the 'wetter' they are. If they get
TOO far appart, they become dissonate, and just plain out of tune, for
most folks.
In a 3 reed setup, one reed is typically tuned 'in' pitch, based on 440,
or whatever scale you want to use. One reed is tuned flat, relative to
the middle reed(lower pitch, with a tad bit of scraping at the bottom
1/3 mark or so of the reed), and one is tuned sharp (higher pitch, by
scraping at the top 1/4 or so of the reed). The trick is to get the
same RELATIVE dissonance between the upper and lower reeds, accros the
range of the instrument. If you play the upper and lower reeds
togeather, you should hear a bit of a 'beat'.. Sounding like a
'wah-wah-wah' ... That is one reeds freequency beating against the
other, the difference being heard in this beat. The slower the beat,
the closer the reeds are tuned to each other, the faster the beat, the
more they are tuned away from each other. When there is no beat .. They
are pretty close to the same pitch. I use a pretty inexpensive meter
with a needle, that indicates how many 'cents' away from center pitch
tone is. Most all the low reeds are about the same 'flatness', and most
all the upper reeds (of the pair, or 3, or whatever) are about the same
'sharpness'.
Once each reed is pitched, then each set of reeds checked against each
other, then each set of reeds (for a given note) is checked against
other reeds ... An octave higher, lower, 3rd's fiths, etc. All should
sound pretty well togeather. The meter is a good tool, but the best
tool is your ear. The more you do, the better you become.
Good luck!
Dennis
Norm
DoN. Nichols
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>
>DISCLAIMER:
>I'll go on record, first, by stating that I'm more of a 'hobbiest'
>repair person than a 'schooled, trained, and learned scholar' of
>accordion repair or tuning ...
How do you think that *I* got started? I just picked
concertinas instead of accordions, because that was what I wanted to
play. :-)
>CLEANING & TUNING OF REEDS
>I have steered away from any chemical cleaning of reeds, and have stuck
>to mechanical light scraping, for the same reasons listed by at least
>Don Nichols and others. I certainly agree with all the technical
>reasons.
>
>I have occasionally resorted to a LIGHT dusting with a wire-brushed
>dremmel tool, that I would really considder more of a 'hackers' tool.
Which style -- stainless steel, or brass wires? I would
consider the brass to be a very good choice for this type of operation.
> I
>usually stick to a couple modified tools that I use for scraping, one
>being a sharepend, but flat and squared edged tool, and another bing a
>common small X-acto knive (brand name here in the states), similar to a
>surgeon's pointed scapel.
That sounds like a good choice given the size of your reeds.
Most concertina reeds tend to be on the smaller size range, and I had
the set of Starrett jeweler's screwdrivers which were nicely hardened,
and worked well for the purpose.
> I scrape as much rust of as possible,
>supporting the reed in both directions, and use the X-acto for scraping
>the edges and tips of the reeds. Occasionally the tip of the reeds may
>need to be 'dressed' with a very fine file or sandpaper, to get the reed
>to clear it's slot in the plate.
Do you know about steel shim stock? I use some of 0.0015"
thickness to both clean dust out of the side slots, and to support the
reed while I'm working on it, so I don't damage the reed carrier (reed
plate, in your case.
> I clean just enough to get the reed
>back to a useable state, and to allow proper sealing on the reedblock
>either mechanically, or with beeswax. Compressed air is my friend to ..
>'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly. I'd like to
>find a good way to re-fill standard canned air cans. Seems like this is
>possible, and I even think I've seen it done before, but currently, I
>just take the reeds out to the garage, and blow out with the air
>compressor.
You have a compressor, so you should look into the "Sure-Shot"
refillable spray containers. I would have several, if I had a serious
compressor to fill them. They are useful for spraying solvents, and for
just plain air spraying. (I think that they are listed in the MSC
catalog -- a resource which you should learn about if you don't already
know it. If you don't know, drop me an e-mail and I'll post the
information on how to get a copy.
What I've been using is screw-in compressed CO2 cartridges, but
they are getting harder to find, and have always been rather expensive.
>I seldom tune a box back to 'true' ... 440, or whatever. I take the
>average of a given reed set's 'low'tuned reeds, for example (how many
>cents flat or sharp), and tune to the average (not including the
>obviously WAY out reeds) .. Assuming, for the most part that the average
>is most likely close to it's original tuning.
I offer this as an option -- especially since many concertinas
were tuned to the Salvation Army's "outdoor brass band pitch" (about
A=456), or really old ones were tuned to "old pitch" which is around
A=436). The latter were often "just" tuned, which produces very pure
chords within a limited range of keys, and becomes progressively more
offensive as you stray out of that range. The most extreme notes are D#
and Eb, which are about twelve cents off from the chromatic note which
serves for both -- and they are out in *opposite* directions. :-)
Some wish to keep the old pitch or the SA pitch for various
reasons.
[ ... ]
>these. One customer actually wanted me to DE-tune his box, so it WASN'T
>standard pitch. I wouldn't tune Frankie Yankovic's favorite box this
>way, but for the average user with a 30 year old box, banging around at
>home .. Or even the button box that I would personally play on stage,
>this method seems to work quite well.
>
>I've run across a number of boxes that were '1/2'tuned. They were tuned
>a 1/4 step off of standard 440 .. Across the board. I assume this might
>be so the box couldn't be used in a group .. Actually, more to the point
>.. The player probably didn't want anyone coming up and attempting to
>'jam' with him .. He probably wanted to be a soloist! Pure conjecture,
>on my part.
I have had people who preferred to keep the old pitch, or the SA
pitch, to discourage people from playing along. However, one
observation which I have made is that those who you particularly wish
would not play along are the ones who are least likely to notice that
you aren't in the same tuning that they are. They'll just keep hunting
for the right key. :-)
>Reed clearance, or lack of it .. Because of rust, dirt, bad or loosened
>reed pining, etc, and reed leathers are the 2nd biggest problem when it
>comes to a properly 'speaking' (or is that 'singing'?) reed. Reeds need
>to have sufficient clearance it it's tounge slot to allow air through,
>and to keep the reed from getting stuck, or even toutching the sides. A
>stuck reed is obvoius, but one that has a loose mounting pin, or is
>slightly cocked in it's slot is a bit tougher, as the problem these
>issues cause aren't allways consistent.
Here is another use for the shim stock. A piece vertical on
either side of the reed helps to hold it centered in the slot as you
pein the rivet (or in my case, tighten the screws on the clamp bar over
the root of the reed.)
>There was a sprayable chemical that was available for computer contacts,
>that supposedlly kept the tin and gold contacts on connectors from
>getting crapped up, that I allways thought might be an item to try on
>reeds to keep them from rusting, or coroding again, but I am pretty
>skeptical of even that. Best to not put anything on the reeds, as
>WHATEVER you put on them will alter it's tuning (seems to me), and might
>have adverse effects in the long run. Plus .. You still want the reed
>leathers to be securely glued to the reed plate, and that would most
>likely be done after whatever treatment you would attempt to put on the
>reeds. Reeds will last a LONG time, in proper conditions. The only
>reeds I've seen get rusted up, are on boxes that have been stored
>improperly .. Or were REALLY cheap reeds to begin with.
Well ... there is one thing which can accelerate rusting of the
reeds. That is to take the instrument from a colder space (air
conditioned living space in the summer or trunk of a car in the winter)
to a warmer, more humid space, and then play without allowing the
instrument to adjust to the ambient temperature. This will encourage
condensation of humidity onto the reeds (which are probably the coldest
things in the box, in terms of thermal mass).
This is even worse if you live near salt water, as there will
always be a bit of salt carried in the mist, and that will really
accelerate the rusting.
>TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
>By the way .. I don't have a fancy tuning bench (as you might imagine by
>now). If I did .. I would probably be more anal (excuse me ...
>Accurate) in my tuning. I have a solid, but old set of bellows with
>1/2" plywood on both sides, attatched like a bellows frame typically is
>on an accordion, with leather strip gasket, an an inner 1/4" or 3/8"
>square stock frame to screw the bellows frame to. Bottom is 1" larger
>all the way around the bellows, to attatch with C-clamps to my bench (so
>it's portable), and 2" longer and wider on the top, so I have a handle
>grasp when operating the bellows. The top is covered with automotive
>cork gasket material. I'd rather use leather, but the cork was handy,
>and cheape, and I thought it might hold up better. It has held up very
>well for over 4 years of use. I've cut a slightly rectangular hole in
>the center of the top plate, through the cork cover and plywood,
>slightly smaller than the average reed block air hole, and just slide
>the reed block back and fourth over the hole to get air to whatever reed
>(or reeds) I'm working on.
I've seen them mounted to the underside of a benchtop, with a
foot lever, or some other means of pulling the free bottom end up, and
weights to lower it. This keeps the amount of benchtop consumed to a
minimum -- the aperture into the bellows.
I would suggest a pair of large valve flaps which can
individually be locked out, so you can recover bellows travel more
quickly when working on a reed in a particular direction.
Since the concertina reeds are in dovetailed carriers which can
be easily slid out of the reed pan, I only need something which is
sucking air down from outside, so I've fabricated a box which is
connected to a vacuum pump in a distant room (for noise control), though
a needle valve and a floating-ball airflow gauge. This allows me to
sound a reed for minutes at a time, should I need to. But it would not
work well for accordion reeds -- unless you took the exhaust of the
vacuum pump and connected it to another hole for reeds which play in the
other direction.
>Sorry for the ramble .. I figgured I've been listening long enough ..
>Time to contribute SOMETHING!
I considered it an excellent contribution.
DoN. Nichols
Norm <bigblo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you (all) for your answers...I am certainly more "educated"
>now than before. Anybody care to enlighten me further, by explaining
>how someone tunes an existing set of reeds to "musette"??
I'll have to leave this to someone else, as I don't tune
accordions, so I have never done this.
A rough approximation is that one bank of reeds is detuned from
the pitch of the other to make an audible beat. Sometimes, a third bank
is detuned in the opposite direction. The exact choice of how much each
reed should be detuned is an art which I have not had the need to
acquire.
Norm
Johann Pascher
Hello Donald Nichols!
I have reed your explanation with great interest!
For me it is especially interesting that you have mentioned that the old Instruments ware tuned to A=436!
I do have a German article where the problematic of the frequencies over time, (the last 200 Years is disgussed) the article is in relation with the reed organ. I also noticed that some people prefer a deeper A for esoteric reasons.
But I would like to ask you, have old concertinas bin tuned "just"?
And if the ware tuned just, was it Pythagorean or with pure 3rd?
I have had some look at the keylayout of the concertina, and I noticed that
Most keys have 5ths, but where did the place the wolf 5th?
Perhaps you are able to give me some answer, I relay would appreciate!
Johann
>I offer this as an option -- especially since many concertinas
>were tuned to the Salvation Army's "outdoor brass band pitch" (about
>A=456), or really old ones were tuned to "old pitch" which is around
>A=436). The latter were often "just" tuned, which produces very pure
>chords within a limited range of keys, and becomes progressively more
>offensive as you stray out of that range. The most extreme notes are D#
>and Eb, which are about twelve cents off from the chromatic note which
>serves for both -- and they are out in *opposite* directions. :-)
>Some wish to keep the old pitch or the SA pitch for various
>reasons.
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 4:56 AM
Subject: SML: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <002101c2e9c4$566f9410$3301a8c0@Dennis>,
[ ... ]
Squeeze On,
DoN.
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Ike Milligan
at the plate, and temperature variations.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Norm" <bigblo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9smu6vsnuvf0olo4o...@4ax.com...
Ike Milligan
badly at the factory or later on.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Norm" <bigblo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9smu6vsnuvf0olo4o...@4ax.com...
>
Ike Milligan
petroleum solvent such as mineral spirits with oil added and scraped with
the appropriate sized flat bladed precision screwdriver, taking care not to
score the upper edge of the slot, then wiped with chamois to assure that
dust-catching oil does not remain. The edge of the reed can also be scraped
gently with a flat piece of metal under it to avoid scratching the slot. A
thin film of oild cna remaintto prevent furure rust but just enough for a
sheen and not wetness which will catch dust and weigh it down. Naval jelly
should never be used. Neither should one use any other type of acid. I have
sometimes used a mixture of ammonia and alcohol as a pre-rinse, but
definitely not for soaking.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Bjcomm9615" <bjcom...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20030313122609...@mb-cp.news.cs.com...
Ike Milligan
will mean that the reed won't stay in tune. I have even used black rouge in
oil on a sharpened bamboo skewer in a rotary tool to polish away rust. Not
to remove the rust will produce a far worse result than the variation in
pressure response that may or may not ensue after rust removal. The ear is
more likely to focus on the in-tune result than the variation which occurs
when the pressure changes. Please remember that the listener is not testing
the tuning but hearing a melodic passage.
--
www.1accordion.net
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b4qoon$986$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
>
>Hello Donald Nichols!
>
>
>
>I have reed your explanation with great interest!
>For me it is especially interesting that you have mentioned that the
>old Instruments ware tuned to A=436!
These were instruments from about 1829 (the start of the
concertina) to about 1850 or perhaps 1860.
>I do have a German article where the problematic of the frequencies
>over time, (the last 200 Years is disgussed) the article is in relation
>with the reed organ. I also noticed that some people prefer a deeper A
>for esoteric reasons.
And the Salvation Army preferred a pitch a bit over a
quarter-tone sharp of modern pitch. The supposed reason was that it (in
their outdoor brass bands, which often included concertinas) would tend
to get attention over a greater distance. I'm not at all sure that it
really would, for that small an increase in pitch (about 50-60 cents),
but that was the given reason. Hmm ... it might be what you would get
with relatively untrained musicians, with the tuning slides all the way
in on the brass instruments. Then the concertinas were purchased tuned
to fit with the rest of the band. :-)
Anyway -- the Salvation Army had *lots* of concertinas through
the years, so many need to be re-tuned to modern pitch for most players.
(It is far enough out so if a string player (e.g. guitar) re-tunes to
the instrument, for the next half hour, they are having to re-tune
frequently as the strings settle in, and once you leave, they have to
live with similarly frequent re-tuning after taking the instrument back
down to modern pitch.
>
>
>But I would like to ask you, have old concertinas bin tuned "just"?
I would say so -- or something close to it.
>And if the ware tuned just, was it Pythagorean or with pure 3rd?
I think that it was pure third, based on the sound of adjacent
buttons (next row, one up or down) but I am not totally sure.
>I have had some look at the keylayout of the concertina, and I noticed that
>
>Most keys have 5ths, but where did the place the wolf 5th?
I don't really know. I'm not really clear on that term. But I
think that the end of the tuning chain (in thirds) wound up at the D#
and Eb notes, which were each twelve cents off from the chromatic
compromise note -- but in opposite directions, so the sound was rather
terrible when they are played together. (Or am I mis-remembering --
perhaps it was six cents off each, for a total error of twelve cents.)
Only once did I try to tune an instrument for someone this way
(after advising against it). I tuned the first octave and let hin try
that to see how it went, and we compromised on a strange tuning with
each note sort of half-way between the chromatic and the just tuning,
which satisfied his needs at the time.
>Perhaps you are able to give me some answer, I relay would appreciate!
I think that it will take someone else to explain the "wolf 5th"
to me. I hope that what I wrote above is some help, at least.
Squeeze On.
Ike Milligan
upper edge of the slot the reed vibrates in. BTW having read this whole
post, never having had a complaint about tuning, does not necessarily
indicate excellent tuning. Factory tuning is not really very good and that
may be the standard being compared with. Unless you have experienced
extremely good tuning, you would have nothing to compare it to. Not to say
the writer isn't tuning extremely well; I can't critique something I haven't
analyzed. Personally I never use the tuning bellows to do actual tuning,
just to test the reeds on the bar. The actual tuning needs to be done inside
the accordion, except maybe the bass reeds to kill extremely sour bass
notes, when the bass does not have to be as good as the treble. Of course
you know that the pressure on the tuning bellows is different, i. e.,
reversed, from inside the accordion and the result will be different. Also
it the keyboard may be needed to check octaves and sometimes other
intervals.,especially to keep the octaves from locking the high reed to the
low reed and sounding like a single reed. The octave should be stretched
ever so slightly and not narrow, which will sound in tune but be locked in
frequency.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote in message
news:002101c2e9c4$566f9410$3301a8c0@Dennis...
*Casey*
"new international pitch A=435, adopted Nov., 1891"
It was standard pitch until ca. the "great war".
Casey
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b4tv0o$37e$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
Dennis Hoshield
Certainly, care must be taken when using any mechanical means ..
Especially electrically powered tools, to work on reeds. One thing I
allways try to do is have the rotation of the wire wheel (I usually use
brass wheels, but they DO fall appart much faster than steel) brushes so
the brushes allways brushing over, if possible, a reed tip, or opening.
Sometimes this is pretty tough to do, but usually a light scrape with
the tip of the X-acto sharpens the corners back up again.
I certainly agree with you on factory tuning! Even the mechanics, often
don't work properly. I once worked on a (supposedly) brand new Melodija
.. And I have no doubt that it wasn't new .. As no one could have ever
played it! Almost all the levers leading to the palat plate from the
buttons were so long, they were either touching or sticking on the
fingerboard frame .. A few, wouldn't even go down at all. I can't
imagine a box leaving the factory like that. I've heard of some
manufacturers using green wood for parts, but I would think if
everything shrunk THAT much, that the varnish, etc would have craked,
ec. Cheap boxes (and even not-so-cheap boxes) often have cheap reeds.
A problem I've been seeing more of lately than I have in the past, is
that of the reed pins being loose, allowing the reed to pivot, jam,
rattle, etc. I haven't gotten the knack of consistently re-peaning
(sp?) the pins yet. Like everything .. It's practice.
No .. I don't equate no complaints to excellence on tuining .. Just no
complaints. Actually, I've had lots of comlements as well. Again,
however, I'm not working on the BMW of accordions .. I'm working on the
30 year old Fords and Chevy's. A shade-tree mechanic can go a long way
towards keeping an old clunker like my wive's '65 Ford Falcon running ..
I need't take it to a Lexus mechanic. Heck, I wouldn't even take it to
the local Ford garage, unless is was something I couldn't figgure out.
On the other hand, as I said in my post ... I wouldn't do such work on a
very valuable box. I'll leave that to the experts.
I certainly agree with the tuning the reeds in the box .. I allways play
the box, well ... As much as 'I' can play a box ... Playing chords,
intervals, octaves, etc .. To judge acceptable tuning. I also, however
disslike dissmantling a box a lot of unnecessary times, so I take a few
notes, go back in and tweak, reassyble and try again. My big point is,
I wouldn't gett TOO worked up on getting a bunch of fancy tools,
computer software, etc to do the average repair. If you are a pro, have
had the proper training, appretiship, etc .. And can afford it .. By all
means, every tool you can use to get a good result is for the best.
Keep those old boxes alive!
Really-Reply-To: "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com>
Really-From: "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com>
><SNIP>
Dennis Hoshield
Sorry for the re-post of the bulk of the original text ... I've
<SNIP>ped portions to make it shorter.
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <002101c2e9c4$566f9410$3301a8c0@Dennis>,
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>
>DISCLAIMER:
>I'll go on record, first, by stating that I'm more of a 'hobbiest'
>repair person than a 'schooled, trained, and learned scholar' of
>accordion repair or tuning ...
How do you think that *I* got started? I just picked
concertinas instead of accordions, because that was what I wanted to
play. :-)
-------> Great! Glad I'm not the only one! :-) I've since been trying
to wean off the PA's, and stick to just button boxes .. Steirische's,
etc, as THOSE are what I like to play!
>CLEANING & TUNING OF REEDS
>I have steered away from any chemical cleaning of reeds, and have stuck
>to mechanical light scraping, for the same reasons listed by at least
>Don Nichols and others. I certainly agree with all the technical
>reasons.
>
>I have occasionally resorted to a LIGHT dusting with a wire-brushed
>dremmel tool, that I would really considder more of a 'hackers' tool.
Which style -- stainless steel, or brass wires? I would
consider the brass to be a very good choice for this type of operation.
-----------------> I usually use brass, but they tend to fall apart a
lot faster than the stanless, so I do use both. Gotta be more careful
with the stanless, though. I try to keep the rotation of the wheel, so
the wires roll off squared edges (reeds and aluminum reed blocks),
rather than bite into them. I usually pay more attention to the
aluminum reed block than the reed, in this respect (pushing the reed
down, and out of the way, so I don't snag it) .. As the aluminum (alloy)
is a whole lot softer than the reed itself. I have certainly broken
more than one (usually small) reed, rushing, and not beeing careful
about the wheel rotation in relation to the reed, and snap the li'l
bugger right of. THAT's the best reason for all the piano accordions ..
They're a good source of spare reeds! :-)
>
>I usually stick to a couple modified tools that I use for scraping, one
>being a sharepend, but flat and squared edged tool, and another bing a
>common small X-acto knive (brand name here in the states), similar to a
>surgeon's pointed scapel.
That sounds like a good choice given the size of your reeds.
Most concertina reeds tend to be on the smaller size range, and I had
the set of Starrett jeweler's screwdrivers which were nicely hardened,
and worked well for the purpose.
---------------> Good idea .. Usually easy to keep the ends 'square' as
well.
> I scrape as much rust of as possible,
>supporting the reed in both directions, and use the X-acto for scraping
>the edges and tips of the reeds. Occasionally the tip of the reeds may
>need to be 'dressed' with a very fine file or sandpaper, to get the
>reed to clear it's slot in the plate.
Do you know about steel shim stock? I use some of 0.0015"
thickness to both clean dust out of the side slots, and to support the
reed while I'm working on it, so I don't damage the reed carrier (reed
plate, in your case.
---------------> Yes .. And brass stock as well. I had a couple
'tuners'plates .. But were much to thick for my taste. They seemed to
distort the reed if inserted too far. The thinner stocks work much
better
> I clean just enough to get the reed
>back to a useable state, and to allow proper sealing on the reedblock
>either mechanically, or with beeswax. Compressed air is my friend to
>.. 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly. I'd like
>to find a good way to re-fill standard canned air cans. Seems like
>this is possible, and I even think I've seen it done before, but
>currently, I just take the reeds out to the garage, and blow out with
>the air compressor.
You have a compressor, so you should look into the "Sure-Shot"
refillable spray containers. I would have several, if I had a serious
compressor to fill them. They are useful for spraying solvents, and for
just plain air spraying. (I think that they are listed in the MSC
catalog -- a resource which you should learn about if you don't already
know it. If you don't know, drop me an e-mail and I'll post the
information on how to get a copy.
-----------> Ahhhh!!! .. That's worth the price of admission, right
there! I'll have to look those guys up! I'll shoot you an e-mail ... I
don't think I've seen that one ...
What I've been using is screw-in compressed CO2 cartridges, but
they are getting harder to find, and have always been rather expensive.
----------------> I had thought of those, after getting some for my
son-in-law for his bike (quick inflate when changing tires on the
trail). I never actually tried it though. Is there a lever controlled
spray head available for them?
>I seldom tune a box back to 'true' ... 440, or whatever. I take the
>average of a given reed set's 'low'tuned reeds, for example (how many
>cents flat or sharp), and tune to the average (not including the
>obviously WAY out reeds) .. Assuming, for the most part that the
>average is most likely close to it's original tuning.
I offer this as an option -- especially since many concertinas
were tuned to the Salvation Army's "outdoor brass band pitch" (about
A=456), or really old ones were tuned to "old pitch" which is around
A=436). The latter were often "just" tuned, which produces very pure
chords within a limited range of keys, and becomes progressively more
offensive as you stray out of that range. The most extreme notes are D#
and Eb, which are about twelve cents off from the chromatic note which
serves for both -- and they are out in *opposite* directions. :-)
Some wish to keep the old pitch or the SA pitch for various
reasons.
-----------------> Don't you wonder why these different standards ever
came about?? Wow ... The 'just' tuning sounds a bit strange. Sounds
like what I would end up with, if I tuned purely by ear. :-) The notes
I would hear the most, and hear togeather the most would be pretty close
.. But the lesser used notes might be a bit off.
[ ... ]
>these. One customer actually wanted me to DE-tune his box, so it
>WASN'T standard pitch. I wouldn't tune Frankie Yankovic's favorite box
>this way, but for the average user with a 30 year old box, banging
>around at home .. Or even the button box that I would personally play
>on stage, this method seems to work quite well.
>
>I've run across a number of boxes that were '1/2'tuned. They were
>tuned a 1/4 step off of standard 440 .. Across the board. I assume
>this might be so the box couldn't be used in a group .. Actually, more
>to the point .. The player probably didn't want anyone coming up and
>attempting to 'jam' with him .. He probably wanted to be a soloist!
>Pure conjecture, on my part.
I have had people who preferred to keep the old pitch, or the SA
pitch, to discourage people from playing along. However, one
observation which I have made is that those who you particularly wish
would not play along are the ones who are least likely to notice that
you aren't in the same tuning that they are. They'll just keep hunting
for the right key. :-)
--------------> Heheheh ... .ain't THAT the truth! Some just can't
take the hint.
>Reed clearance, or lack of it .. Because of rust, dirt, bad or
>loosened reed pining, etc, and reed leathers are the 2nd biggest
>problem when it comes to a properly 'speaking' (or is that 'singing'?)
>reed. Reeds need to have sufficient clearance it it's tounge slot to
>allow air through, and to keep the reed from getting stuck, or even
>toutching the sides. A stuck reed is obvoius, but one that has a loose
>mounting pin, or is slightly cocked in it's slot is a bit tougher, as
>the problem these issues cause aren't allways consistent.
Here is another use for the shim stock. A piece vertical on
either side of the reed helps to hold it centered in the slot as you
pein the rivet (or in my case, tighten the screws on the clamp bar over
the root of the reed.)
------------> Hey .. Another good idea. Do you pein with a small
anvil surface/hammer/puch .. Or press? I've only tried the hammer
technique, but getting a consistent pein is a personal pain for this
player ..
>There was a sprayable chemical that was available for computer
>contacts, that supposedlly kept the tin and gold contacts on connectors
<SNIP> reeds I've seen get rusted up, are on boxes that have been stored
>improperly .. Or were REALLY cheap reeds to begin with.
Well ... there is one thing which can accelerate rusting of the
reeds. That is to take the instrument from a colder space (air
conditioned living space in the summer or trunk of a car in the winter)
to a warmer, more humid space, and then play without allowing the
instrument to adjust to the ambient temperature. This will encourage
condensation of humidity onto the reeds (which are probably the coldest
things in the box, in terms of thermal mass).
This is even worse if you live near salt water, as there will
always be a bit of salt carried in the mist, and that will really
accelerate the rusting.
-------------------> Certainly. I got 3 boxes in last year from 3
different folks .. All from 'the south'. 2 from Florida, and one from
Alabama, I think .. All were quite badly corroded & rusted. Of course,
one could certainly get the same here in northern Michigan .. As you say
.. Bringing the box in and out of the cold, and not allowing it to warm
up and air properly.
>TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
>By the way .. I don't have a fancy tuning bench (as you might imagine
>by now). If I did .. I would probably be more anal (excuse me ...
<SNIP> back and fourth over the hole to get air to
>whatever reed (or reeds) I'm working on.
I've seen them mounted to the underside of a benchtop, with a
foot lever, or some other means of pulling the free bottom end up, and
weights to lower it. This keeps the amount of benchtop consumed to a
minimum -- the aperture into the bellows.
I would suggest a pair of large valve flaps which can
individually be locked out, so you can recover bellows travel more
quickly when working on a reed in a particular direction.
Since the concertina reeds are in dovetailed carriers which can
be easily slid out of the reed pan, I only need something which is
sucking air down from outside, so I've fabricated a box which is
connected to a vacuum pump in a distant room (for noise control), though
a needle valve and a floating-ball airflow gauge. This allows me to
sound a reed for minutes at a time, should I need to. But it would not
work well for accordion reeds -- unless you took the exhaust of the
vacuum pump and connected it to another hole for reeds which play in the
other direction.
----------------> My first attempt at a tuning station involved a
vacume cleaner (that had ducted exhaust) and and ample supply of 'duct'
tape. I won't go any further than that. :-) I quickly settled for the
bellows. I haven't worked on but a few concertinas, and only cheap ones
at that. So, you get proper control (volume/pressure) with the needle
valve? .. I allways seemed to have too much pressure (or suction) and
not enough volume.
>Sorry for the ramble .. I figgured I've been listening long enough ..
>Time to contribute SOMETHING!
I considered it an excellent contribution.
---------> Thanks! You have some good tips here as well!
Take care ....
Dennis
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Michael Bell
and therefore should make the reed FLATTER (rust adds weight, the
weight of the oxygen, AND takes away metal and therefore reduces the
stiffness of the reed and so should have a double effect). Do you ever
find that reeds go sharper?
I play concertina, and I find that reeds keep their tune for
years, they're very stable. Is that a feature of the traditional long
concertina reed or is it because I don't smoke or otherwise add weight
to the reeds?
Michael Bell
Squeezer and squeaker
--
Helen P.
> 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly.
Would a vacuum cleaner's ducted work?
What about adapting a bicycle pump, sports ball pump, or beach float pump to
refill the cannister?
-- Helen
Helen P.
> Ok, say you have a "perfectly" tuned piano accordion. You treat it well,
> and play it often (but not around smoke or high humidity).
> Over time, are the reeds most likely to go flat, sharp, or a mixture?
Hi, Johann!
Sorry, but I don't understand what your reply has to do with this question.
-- Helen
Helen P.
"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
> 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly.
Would a vacuum cleaner's ducted EXHAUST work?
Johann Pascher
Hello Michael Bell
>I play concertina, and I find that reeds keep their tune for
>years, they're very stable. Is that a feature of the traditional long
>concertina reed or is it because I don't smoke or otherwise add weight
>to the reeds?
1.
Old Concertina reeds are screwed on the mounted plate. And I Think thats
a relay good mounting technique. A rivet is not bad, but I have seen
tuneable reeds for reed tongues produced in Germany the use a similar
technik. Where the liver plate that holds the tongue towards the Ground
plate is adjustable.
2.
I manly think that the free moving part of tongue must be constant over
time and naturally the weght of the tongue must stay the same. Dust can
make a difference and surly rust makes a difference. But Dust or smoke
do not apply a lot of Wight to the tongue if the tongue was not treated
with oil or something what keeps the dust on the surface. Because the
airflow trough the reed when played keeps the amount of dust usualy
small.
3.
Valve lether cold also change the pith of a reed if the get hard or do
not close easily.
4.
I do not think the length of the reed tongue has an effect, but perhaps
someone else in making a comment on this?
5.
And also the “Mensure” the form of the reed has only a little affect on
the spectrum of the ton and not on pith change.
6.
Reeds are relay stabile, and the do not go out of tune as much as one
would think after this discussion.
And if you only have one set of reeds and the are tuned in some
temperament like equal you would not notice a lot if the pith of a
single reed moves a few cents.
7.
Reeds are more stabile in pith in respect of temperature as Pipes are.
The Sound-generating element is the tongue
And not the air. And that was one of the first reasons why reed
Instruments war invited in the first place in Europe. To have a tool to
tune pianos or pipe organ, the first tuninginstruments in the 18th
century.
8.
There ware tests made on a German institute how many cents the everriges
of people do accept as the same ton when played in a melody. I can not
tell at the moment what it states. I would have to look up the article
again, but I think it was stated that it is something around 20 cents,
or it states that the scale with Pythagorean 5th (realy the 3th are the
tones that do not fit in the Pytagorean scale the are to high) are still
tolerable. But for Chords it makes a difference, the character of the
chords is slightly ganging.
Johann
>Really-Reply-To: Michael Bell <micha...@michaelbell.demon.co.uk>
>Really-From: Michael Bell <micha...@michaelbell.demon.co.uk>
Johann Pascher
>> and play it often (but not around smoke or high humidity).
>> Over time, are the reeds most likely to go flat, sharp, or a mixture?
>Hi, Johann!
>Sorry, but I don't understand what your reply has to do with this
>question.
>-- Helen
Hi, Helen!
I am sorry I did not catch your question!
Perhaps it is my English, for me it would be easier in my own language,
sorry!
I understood Your Question, that You wount to know way reeds change pith
over time.
I had a other look and I interpret it now that you wount to know in
withsh direction the pith of a reed is changing over time when the are
in use.
1. A new reed is changing after some time in use without appaying dust
or rust.
2. Because the free length of the reed is changing a little after
mounting.
3. And the elastic parameters over a long time of use gange a little bit
too. One can see also a change in sound “spectrum”. I have compered old
very low “Helicon” tongues. The old Material has fewer overtones as new
Material.
4. On the other hand if there is some oxidation on the Mounting plate
Or the tongue everything can be different! Because as discussed the
weight the elastic and the “free length” of the tongue can change.
The “free length” is can gangue because oxidation near the revert
prevents the last pees of the tongue from moving. I have seen some
WebPages (I can not remember the address now) where the better the
quality of Mouth harmonica reeds by applying a finger nail coating near
the revert to prevent the air leakage where the tongue is not moving a
lot.
Johann
Johann Pascher
Hi, Donald Nichols!
Thanks for Your replay!
I would like to discuss some a little frothier!
Really-Reply-To: "*Casey*" <cas...@ix.netcom.com>
Really-From: "*Casey*" <cas...@ix.netcom.com>
Hi,
"new international pitch A=435, adopted Nov., 1891"
It was standard pitch until ca. the "great war".
Casey
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b4tv0o$37e$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
> In article <00be01c2ea47$0a79d790$8022bf0a@jplp>,
> Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
> >
> >Hello Donald Nichols!
> >
> >
> >
> >I have reed your explanation with great interest!
> >For me it is especially interesting that you have mentioned that the
> >old Instruments ware tuned to A=436!
>
> These were instruments from about 1829 (the start of the
> concertina) to about 1850 or perhaps 1860.
I did think the realy old instruments are the one that are tuned tust.
>
> >I do have a German article where the problematic of the frequencies
> >over time, (the last 200 Years is disgussed) the article is in
relation
> >with the reed organ. I also noticed that some people prefer a deeper
A
> >for esoteric reasons.
>
> And the Salvation Army preferred a pitch a bit over a
> quarter-tone sharp of modern pitch. The supposed reason was that it
(in
> their outdoor brass bands, which often included concertinas) would
tend
> to get attention over a greater distance. I'm not at all sure that it
> really would, for that small an increase in pitch (about 50-60 cents),
> but that was the given reason. Hmm ... it might be what you would get
> with relatively untrained musicians, with the tuning slides all the
way
> in on the brass instruments. Then the concertinas were purchased
tuned
> to fit with the rest of the band. :-)
Cold in not also be because the played outdoor in rather cold condition
with brass instruments, that the brass tended to be sharper and reed
instruments deed keep there pitch?
>
> Anyway -- the Salvation Army had *lots* of concertinas through
> the years, so many need to be re-tuned to modern pitch for most
players.
> (It is far enough out so if a string player (e.g. guitar) re-tunes to
> the instrument, for the next half hour, they are having to re-tune
> frequently as the strings settle in, and once you leave, they have to
> live with similarly frequent re-tuning after taking the instrument
back
> down to modern pitch.
>
> >
> >
> >But I would like to ask you, have old concertinas bin tuned "just"?
>
> I would say so -- or something close to it.
>
> >And if the ware tuned just, was it Pythagorean or with pure 3rd?
>
> I think that it was pure third, based on the sound of adjacent
> buttons (next row, one up or down) but I am not totally sure.
>
> >I have had some look at the keylayout of the concertina, and I
noticed
that
> >
> >Most keys have 5ths, but where did the place the wolf 5th?
>
> I don't really know. I'm not really clear on that term. But I
> think that the end of the tuning chain (in thirds) wound up at the D#
> and Eb notes, which were each twelve cents off from the chromatic
> compromise note -- but in opposite directions, so the sound was rather
> terrible when they are played together. (Or am I mis-remembering --
> perhaps it was six cents off each, for a total error of twelve cents.)
If You are not relay clear, I have a other look at the keylayout of the
old concertinas and I would like to talk with You abut this point again
a little bit later.
>
> Only once did I try to tune an instrument for someone this way
> (after advising against it). I tuned the first octave and let hin try
> that to see how it went, and we compromised on a strange tuning with
> each note sort of half-way between the chromatic and the just tuning,
> which satisfied his needs at the time.
>
> >Perhaps you are able to give me some answer, I relay would
appreciate!
>
> I think that it will take someone else to explain the "wolf 5th"
> to me. I hope that what I wrote above is some help, at least.
It was a great help thanks!!!
And if You like to learn more abut “wolf 5th” it is in relation with
some tuning techniks in the 18th century and the are very well
documented. The where practised on pianos and Church organs? If you wont
I can lead you to some Material on the web.
>
> Squeeze On.
> DoN.
>
Helen P.
Mein Deutsch ist zweifelhaft, also werde ich Babel Fisch-Übersetzung
(http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) betrügen und verwenden. Die Resultate
können ungerade klingen, da es ein merkwürdig wörtlicher kleiner Fisch ist.
Ich verstehe, daß verschiedene Faktoren (Rost, Lockerheit, usw..)
beeinflussen Sie den Taktabstand der Schilfe.
Jedoch ist alles, das ich mich wundere, ob die meisten Schilfe (wohles
behandelt, ohne offensichtliche Probleme) unten in Taktabstand Überzeit
gehen. Oder sie können oben gehen. Oder die Richtung kann unvorhersehbar
sein.
______________________________
My German is dubious, so I am going to cheat and use Babel Fish Translation
(http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr). The results may sound odd, since it is
a strangely literal little Fish.
I understand that various factors (rust, looseness, etc.) affect the pitch
of the reeds.
However, all I am wondering is whether most reeds (well treated, with no
obvious problems) will go down in pitch over time. Or they may go up. Or
the direction may be unpredictable.
-- Helen
wer genug deutsch weiß, um in Mühe zu erhalten, aber, nicht genug zum
hinauszugehen
;-)
who knows enough German to get into trouble, but not enough to get out
Dennis Hoshield
I wouldn't use a cleaner's ducted exhaust .. I tried that as an
experiment ..but the whole idea of blowing air, at least for me, would
be to clean things. You would want to rig up a pretty good filter,
and/or use a brand new vacume cleaner for that purppose. I think it's a
whole lot easier, and more realistic and authentic to use normal
accordion bellows for tuning.
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 3:54 AM
Subject: SML: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
Really-From: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
OOPs!
-- Helen
Dennis Hoshield
I don't know ... They may. I will see if I can actually find some
refilable air canisters, and see how well they work with my compressor.
The hand pumps may work, but might take quite, or be hard to get up to
whatever the useable pressure is.... And I don't know what that is yet.
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 3:44 AM
Subject: SML: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
Really-From: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
-- Helen
Jim Lucas
> >I do have a German article where the problematic of the
> >frequencies over time, (the last 200 Years is disgussed)
> >the article is in relation with the reed organ. I also noticed
> >that some people prefer a deeper A for esoteric reasons.
What does the article say? My understanding is that "standard" pitch has
varied widely not only over time but from country to country and group to
group. I don't know when A-440 was adopted as an orchestral standard, but
I'm pretty sure it was after 1900, and I seem to recall that it wasn't
even at the same time in Europe as in North America.
In Irish music, "flat sets" (pitched lower than "standard") of uilleann
pipes were and still are highly prized, yet many modern Irish fiddlers and
groups will deliberately tune sharp -- even as much as half a step --
because they feel it gives a "brighter" sound. And the "A" of Scottish
pipers is essentially the same as today's orchestral "Bb", while that of
Northumbrian small pipes is a modern standard "G".
DoN Nichols had written:
> ...many concertinas were tuned to the Salvation Army's
> "outdoor brass band pitch" (about A=456)....
And he now writes:
> And the Salvation Army preferred a pitch a bit over a
> quarter-tone sharp of modern pitch. The supposed
> reason was that it (in their outdoor brass bands, which
> often included concertinas) would tend to get attention
> over a greater distance. I'm not at all sure that it really
> would, for that small an increase in pitch (about 50-60
> cents), but that was the given reason.
In the mid-1950's my school music teachers (in the US, but in both New
York and Washington states) taught that A=440 was standard for
*orchestral* tuning, but C=256 was standard for *brass bands*, and I had
to tune my French horn quite differently when playing in the two different
ensembles. C=256 translates to A=430.54, and it's intriguing that Bb in
that scale is 456.14. Were the Salvation Army folks tuning a half-step
sharp to what they understood was others' "standard"?
> >But I would like to ask you, have old concertinas bin
> >tuned "just"?
>
> I would say so -- or something close to it.
>
> >And if the ware tuned just, was it Pythagorean or with
> >pure 3rd?
>
> I think that it was pure third,...
There were many versions of "tempered" tuning before modern "equal
tempered" became a standard, and various of them were used in different
concertinas. But they have always been rare, so most likely each one was a
special order and would have been given the particular tempering requested
by the individual placing the order.
Paul Groff is an expert on this topic, and a champion of *not* changing
the original tuning of instruments. If you ever have a chance to visit
his shop, he'll be glad demonstrate the advantages of each of the various
temperaments by playing particular pieces and arrangements on instruments
in those temperaments, then showing you how different they sound when
played on each of the other instruments.
> >I have had some look at the keylayout of the
> >concertina, and I noticed that Most keys have 5ths,
> >but where did the place the wolf 5th?
It's hard to be sure, but it sound like Johann is talking about anglos --
or perhaps Chemnitzers or bandoneons, -- since Englishes and duets should
have 5ths in *all* keys. DoN's (and my) expertise is more with the
English system, and it occurs to me that non-equal tempered tuning would
make more sense on an anglo. Maybe this is why Paul Groff -- who
specializes in anglos -- seems to have experienced more different
instruments in more different temperaments than either DoN or myself.
(I've only seen a couple of Englishes and no duets in non-equal
temperament.)
Digressing somewhat, with regard to something I mentioned earlier:
The idea that C -- or "do" -- would be equal to a power of two (256
hertz for middle C) sounds particularly Pythagorean to me, though I'm not
personally aware of any evidence that Pythagoras or the Pythagoreans had a
"standard" pitch. Can any of the rest of you provide further
information -- pro or con -- regarding my wild surmise?
/Jim Lucas
Dave Garland
wrote:
> I think that it will take someone else to explain the "wolf 5th"
>to me. I hope that what I wrote above is some help, at least.
Johann Pascher
Hi, Jim!
>> Johann Pascher wrote:
>> >I do have a German article where the problematic of the
>> >frequencies over time, (the last 200 Years is disgussed)
>> >the article is in relation with the reed organ. I also noticed
>> >that some people prefer a deeper A for esoteric reasons.
>What does the article say?
Ok I tell Yo whre You can find the Artikel:
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/weischet.pdf
Mr Weischet stats that:
1885 it was 435Hz
1939 440 Hz in der Sek.
I have also included a piece in German language.
>My understanding is that "standard" pitch has
>varied widely not only over time but from country to country and group
to
>group. I don't know when A-440 was adopted as an orchestral standard,
but
>I'm pretty sure it was after 1900, and I seem to recall that it wasn't
>even at the same time in Europe as in North America.
2.
I am relay glad that you contribute to this subject!
Is Paul Groff on this group?
Where is his Shop? I live in Austria is it far away?
I have also made the experience that the different temperaments make a
great difference in sound! I have experimented with different
temperaments on diatonic Instruments.
>Paul Groff is an expert on this topic, and a champion of *not* changing
>the original tuning of instruments. If you ever have a chance to visit
>his shop, he'll be glad demonstrate the advantages of each of the
various
>temperaments by playing particular pieces and arrangements on
instruments
>in those temperaments, then showing you how different they sound when
>played on each of the other instruments.
Mr Weischet a German reed organ builder states:
Zum Schluß möchte ich noch etwas zur Tonhöhe sagen. Doch daran hielten
sich die
Harmoniumbauer zunächst gar nicht. Im Jahre 1978 habe ich eins der
ersten 6
MANNBORG-Harmoniums aus der Anfangsproduktion von 1889 in Borna
restauriert. Das geschah in meiner kleinen Werkstatt auf dem
Privatgrundstück,
denn hier wurde ich ja nicht mehr geduldet. Dieses seltene Stück ist im
Buch
von Herrn Prof. Ahrens “Das Harmonium in Deutschland“ auf S. 308 unten
abgebildet. Sie können es am Sonntag in Leipzig sehen, wenn Sie das
Museum
be- suchen. Es hat 441 Hz. Bei anderen deutschen Instrumenten aus dieser
Zeit
habe ich sogar 445 bis 450 Hz gemessen. Doch etwa zur Jahrhundertwende
pendelte es sich auf 435 Hz (also damals 870 Schwingungen) ein. 1939 kam
es
dann in London zur 2. Internationalen Stimmkonferenz, wo 440 Hz in der
Sek.
festgelegt wurden. Auch daran hielten sich die Harmoniumbauer nicht. Sie
blieben nun bei 435 Hz, vielleicht nicht aus Sturheit, sondern mehr aus
einer
gewissen Qualitätsorge heraus, oder nach dem alten Motto: “Was der Bauer
nicht kennt.....“ (Hier der Harmonium b a u e r ). Heute können wir
niemand
mehr fragen, ich leider meinen Vater auch nicht. Als er noch lebte,
hatte ich
andere Sorgen. Als MANNBORG verstaatlicht wurde, verlagerte man die
Harmoniumproduktion zur Leipziger Pianoforte-Fabrik (früher
Hupfeld-Zimmermann)
in Böhlitz- Ehrenberg. Da ging man in Übereinstimmung mit den
dort hergestellten Klavieren sofort auf 440 Hz über, ich aber blieb noch
immer
bei 435. Das war einfach keine Problematik für mich und es hatte
weltweit auch
kein Kunde anders verlangt. Erst als ich im Jahre 1961 MANNBORG
übernahm,
paßte auch ich mich bei LINDHOLM mit 440 Hz an. Heute verlangen
Orchester,
wenn Harmonium vorgeschrieben ist – und das ist jetzt immer öfters der
Fall –
442 bis 444 Hz und mehr.Ich habe schon eine Reihe höher gestimmt.
Meistens
nehme ich da neue Zungen, mindestens bei hohen Spielen; denn der Sprung
von 435 zu 444 ist doch ziemlich groß und oft sind die Zungenfedern
schon sehr
dünn.
Johann Pascher
Hallo, Helen!
Yes You really got it!
Who knows enough English to get into trouble, but not enough to get out!
So lets keep to English otherwise we relay have trouble.
> Who knows enough German to get into trouble, but not enough to get out
>
>
2. I like to share my experience with you and all others who are
interested and I respect every one in this group.
Shurely not everyone has the same viewpoint, and that makes it
interesting too.
3. Please place your question again, I will try to answer it if I can.
Johann
<use...@d-and-d.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:<b4v4l1$ja3$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net>...
> Really-Reply-To: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
> Really-From: "Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com>
>
DoN. Nichols
*Casey* <cas...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>"new international pitch A=435, adopted Nov., 1891"
>It was standard pitch until ca. the "great war".
Thanks! If it was made an international standard in 1891, that
suggests that it was seeing a lot of use prior to that in some areas, and
I suspect that England was one of those.
Squeeze On,
Don Tuite
wrote:
>In article <b4u7fg$m7n$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>,
>*Casey* <cas...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Hi,
>>"new international pitch A=435, adopted Nov., 1891"
>>It was standard pitch until ca. the "great war".
>
> Thanks! If it was made an international standard in 1891, that
>suggests that it was seeing a lot of use prior to that in some areas, and
>I suspect that England was one of those.
Ahem! /Major Hoople Mode ON/ Yes, by the time of the Great War, the
use of radio for communications was becoming important, and the higher
frequency for "A" was adopted to save wavelengths for the lads over in
the trenches. It wasn't long before the other pitches followed suit
so as not to be seen as unpatriotic. Harumph! In the meantime, of
course musical recitals were a bit cacaphonic. /Major Hoople Mode
OFF/
Don
Ike Milligan
to have written an article a few years ago in his newspaper promoting A435
as a standard, from what I gathered. Before tuning a pre- WW2 accordion it
might behoove one to check the standard pitch, in case that's too low for
one's purpose. I have once raised a set of button box reeds form A435 to
A440, but it risks degrading the reeds' properties somewhat.
--
www.1accordion.net
"*Casey*" <cas...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:b4u7fg$m7n$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Ike Milligan
dirt, rust, warped reed block, etc. At low temperature they will all go
sharp.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Michael Bell" <micha...@michaelbell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ant1507110b09h$$@michaelbell.demon.co.uk...
Ike Milligan
reiterated that one must take great care not to bevel the edge of the slot,
which might be lost on people who don't thoroughly understand its
importance. Also tuning inside the box gets easier the more you do it. Of
course you wold not replace the bellows pins, and maybe even tape over any
holes. Sionce computer programs were mentioned, I would like to say that no
program I have yet found compares well with a real strobe wheel. I.e.,
Tunelab97 and G-tune, which after all were designed for pianos and guitars
respectively. As to his comments about factory tuning, the fact that most
accordions are not tuned really well at the factory is not mentioned but
only an extreme case, perhaps implying that most factory tuning may be OK.
Au contraire.news:002b01c2eaa4$9c8b5bb0$3301a8c0@Dennis...
DoN. Nichols
Thanks! This explains what the meaning is, and shows me how
much I don't know about various tunings.
I fear that I no longer have the data from the survey of an old
instrument which was tuned in some form of just tuning. I've migrated
through too many computer systems and operating systems over the years,
and the old files are inaccessible. My information on this tuning comes
from surveying old instruments, not from a printed source.
The one thing which comes to mind from some of the things in
that web page is that the tuning did have all octaves pure, so whatever
system was in use was starting over for each octave.
And -- as Jim Lucas mentions, I was assuming an English system
instrument in which all intervals are possible -- even to the extent of
having duplicates (from the chromatic point of view) of the D#/Eb pair
and the G#/Ab pair. This perhaps allows some room to accommodate the
wolf fifth.
Squeeze On,
DoN. Nichols
Ike Milligan <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I would not use a wire brush without taking great care not to scratch to
>upper edge of the slot the reed vibrates in.
I have never used a wire brush while cleaning reeds, but if I
were to use one, I think that the following things would make a
difference while tuning concertina reeds.
1) I *always* slide some 0.0015" shim stock between the reed and the
carrier prior to doing anything which could possibly abrade the
carrier -- either cleaning or tuning. (Since these are
concertina reeds, I don't have to deal with the valve flap
(skins) which an accordion tuner with the paired reeds on a
single plate would have. Aside from the protection of the
carrier, this also helps to support the reed during tuning.
2) Most concertina reed carriers (except Wheatstone from the 1950s
on) are either brass or bronze (I believe bronze, though I've
been calling them brass.) Either is significantly harder than
the aluminum most commonly used as accordion reed plates, with
the bronze being the hardest. (I'm not sure where the zinc
plates used in some older instruments falls, but I think that it
is even softer than the aluminum alloys used for reed plates,
though not softer than the softest of aluminum (pure).
The combination would make it a lot more difficult to damage the
reed carrier by my cleaning operations.
Dennis probably takes precautions similar to (1) above to
protect his reed plates. Obviously, he has no control over the material
used to make the reed plates, as I have none over the carriers used in
the concertinas brought to me.
DoN. Nichols
Helen P. <le...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>> 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly.
>
>Would a vacuum cleaner's ducted work?
A vacuum cleaner's exhaust fed to a blower would probably burn
up the vacuum cleaner over time, fighting the back pressure and reducing
the cooling air to the cleaner.
However, if the exhaust is feeding a major leak, in addition to
the duster, that would keep it cooled -- but would increase the noise
significantly.
Also -- you would want an extra layer of dust filtration, as the
air from a vacuum cleaner tends to be very dusty -- not the think which
you want to spray into the interior of your accordion.:-)
>What about adapting a bicycle pump, sports ball pump, or beach float pump to
>refill the cannister?
The usual cannister is not filled with air, but something else.
Once upon a time, it was liquid Freon -- the refrigerant. It
rapidly turns to gas at atmospheric pressure, so whenever the button is
pressed, what had evaporate exits, and the liquid which remains boils to
make more gas -- cooling the container, and thus explaining why a
heavily-used can feels cooler (or even cold) for a while.
Now -- since releasing Freon (or even manufacturing it) is under
a ban because of the destruction of the ozone layer, they've had to fall
back to other choices.
Often the cans will contain liquid butane, which like Freon, is
in liquid form except for a gas layer on the top which escapes when the
button is pressed. If the can is inverted, you get pure liquid which
escapes and boils in the atmosphere.
The Freon will put out a lit match. The butane will make a
flamethrower, so don't try that indoors. These are also used to be used
as propellants for spray paints, insecticides, and other things --
including WD-40. (Since the WD-40 is also inflammable mostly kerosene,
you will see a spectacular flamethrower effect there, too. :-)
One thing which I use is Compressed CO2 -- which comes in
thick-walled cylinders to handle the greater pressures. They have a
metal seal a the end, and a threaded neck which accepts the spray valve.
That valve punctures the seal as it is screwed on. These are two sizes
of cylinders larger than the ones found in seltzer bottles, but the
principle is the same. This also contains the gas in a liquid form
internally.
If any of these were filled with compressed air, since it takes
too much pressure to safely liquefy the air, you get much shorter
service life out of one of these. And the cylinders are too thin-walled
to safely be recharged multiple times with air (with trapped moisture
leading to internal rust). Dry nitrogen would be a better choice -- no
oxygen to support rust.
Of course -- the most convenient thing in the shop would be if
you had a shop source of compressed air, fed through a regulator, to a
lightweight dusting wand. If the air in the compressor gets low, it
will automatically start up to refill, and then shut off.
Unfortunately, cheap compressors (e.g. most from Sears and the like) are
*very* noisy beasts. And good, quiet compressors tend to add a bit of
oil to the air (mixed in with the water condensed by the compression).
So -- you need to add a dryer, and a de-oiler filter before you get to
your duster wand.
Ike Milligan
wolf 5th was a result of the Ab D# 5th the end result of just temperament
which reminded people of the howling of a wolf when hearing the beats when
that interval was played on a pipe organ.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Dave Garland" <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
news:2tn67v0u8dh55qvfk...@4ax.com...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
If you were asking about Anglo concertina, the discussion of keyboard
layout on mine mentions where a D#/Eb pair was probably located
(http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/jeffries.html).
But as far as I know the Salvation Army didn't use Anglos, and I have no
ideas on how theis was handled on other instruments.
Note that Pauline Oliveros' recordings often featured Ms. Oliveros
playing am accordion tuned to just intonation, so that's one place to
try if you want to know what the sound is like. (A number of other "new
music" composers have also gone back to just intonation in order to
recapture those ringing chords.)
I find myself wondering, now that we have electronic keyboards which
could be microtuned in microseconds, whether anyone has attempted to
program one to dynamically change its temperment to match what's being
played. Seems to me that if the program is clever enough, this might
avoid all the compromises inherent in any particular tuning system...
though any mistakes it made would be quite painful.
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign | "may'ron DaroQbe'chugh vaj bIrIQbej" --
/\ Stamp out HTML mail! | "Put down the squeezebox & nobody gets hurt."
DoN. Nichols
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>
>Sorry for the re-post of the bulk of the original text ... I've
><SNIP>ped portions to make it shorter.
And I'll snip some more. BTW -- from the following quoted line,
I suspect that you are on the mailing list side, not the newsgroup.
>Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
[ ... ]
> How do you think that *I* got started? I just picked
>concertinas instead of accordions, because that was what I wanted to
>play. :-)
>
>-------> Great! Glad I'm not the only one! :-) I've since been trying
>to wean off the PA's, and stick to just button boxes .. Steirische's,
>etc, as THOSE are what I like to play!
That's it. Go for the instruments which you like to play, and
you can judge the quality of your work more easily. :-)
>>CLEANING & TUNING OF REEDS
[ ... ]
>>I have occasionally resorted to a LIGHT dusting with a wire-brushed
>>dremmel tool, that I would really considder more of a 'hackers' tool.
>
> Which style -- stainless steel, or brass wires? I would
>consider the brass to be a very good choice for this type of operation.
>
>-----------------> I usually use brass, but they tend to fall apart a
>lot faster than the stanless, so I do use both. Gotta be more careful
>with the stanless, though. I try to keep the rotation of the wheel, so
>the wires roll off squared edges (reeds and aluminum reed blocks),
>rather than bite into them.
Certainly a potential problem. Having the brush rotate from the
anchored end towards the free end is a big help -- and protecting the
carrier with shim stock under the reed.
> I usually pay more attention to the
>aluminum reed block than the reed, in this respect (pushing the reed
>down, and out of the way, so I don't snag it) .
Hmm ... the aluminum probably corrodes faster than the
brass/bronze carriers on the English construction concertinas.
> . As the aluminum (alloy)
>is a whole lot softer than the reed itself. I have certainly broken
>more than one (usually small) reed, rushing, and not beeing careful
>about the wheel rotation in relation to the reed, and snap the li'l
>bugger right of. THAT's the best reason for all the piano accordions ..
>They're a good source of spare reeds! :-)
:-) (Not much help for an English construction instrument,
however. The reeds don't fit. Different shape and different attachment
system. You wind up having to make them from scratch, instead. :-)
[ ... ]
> That sounds like a good choice given the size of your reeds.
>Most concertina reeds tend to be on the smaller size range, and I had
>the set of Starrett jeweler's screwdrivers which were nicely hardened,
>and worked well for the purpose.
>
>---------------> Good idea .. Usually easy to keep the ends 'square' as
>well.
Yep -- I've got a little 2-wheeled fixture which is used on an
"Arkansas stone" to guide it for good shaping when resharpening.
[ ... ]
> Do you know about steel shim stock? I use some of 0.0015"
>thickness to both clean dust out of the side slots, and to support the
>reed while I'm working on it, so I don't damage the reed carrier (reed
>plate, in your case.
>
>---------------> Yes .. And brass stock as well. I had a couple
>'tuners'plates .. But were much to thick for my taste. They seemed to
>distort the reed if inserted too far. The thinner stocks work much
>better
Yes -- and is cheap enough to be discardable once it gets worn,
crinkled, or whatever.
[ ... ]
> You have a compressor, so you should look into the "Sure-Shot"
>refillable spray containers. I would have several, if I had a serious
>compressor to fill them. They are useful for spraying solvents, and for
>just plain air spraying. (I think that they are listed in the MSC
>catalog -- a resource which you should learn about if you don't already
>know it. If you don't know, drop me an e-mail and I'll post the
>information on how to get a copy.
>
>-----------> Ahhhh!!! .. That's worth the price of admission, right
>there! I'll have to look those guys up! I'll shoot you an e-mail ... I
>don't think I've seen that one ...
Already sent.
> What I've been using is screw-in compressed CO2 cartridges, but
>they are getting harder to find, and have always been rather expensive.
>
>----------------> I had thought of those, after getting some for my
>son-in-law for his bike (quick inflate when changing tires on the
>trail). I never actually tried it though. Is there a lever controlled
>spray head available for them?
Yes -- well thumb-trigger controlled, with a thin nylon tube
necked down like a medicine dropper as the spout. They are made by
Leland (or according to the box on my last cylinder -- *for* Leland by
someone in Japan). The company address is:
Leland Limited, INC
Bedminister, NJ, 07921
They *used* to be available at the local electronics parts shop. "Power
Clean" for the smaller, and "Power Clean II" for the larger.
You've given me an idea to check out the local bike shop for
refills. They might even be more affordable. :-) I hope that the
threads are the same.
[ ... ]
> Some wish to keep the old pitch or the SA pitch for various
>reasons.
>
>-----------------> Don't you wonder why these different standards ever
>came about?? Wow ... The 'just' tuning sounds a bit strange. Sounds
>like what I would end up with, if I tuned purely by ear. :-)
That's how the boxes used to be tuned. :-)
> The notes
>I would hear the most, and hear togeather the most would be pretty close
>.. But the lesser used notes might be a bit off.
The most frequent ones are referenced off a starting note, and
sometimes off one of those others, but the less common ones required
going through several steps to get there. :-)
[ ... ]
> I have had people who preferred to keep the old pitch, or the SA
>pitch, to discourage people from playing along. However, one
>observation which I have made is that those who you particularly wish
>would not play along are the ones who are least likely to notice that
>you aren't in the same tuning that they are. They'll just keep hunting
>for the right key. :-)
>
>--------------> Heheheh ... .ain't THAT the truth! Some just can't
>take the hint.
Amen! Or even *notice* the hint. :-)
[ ... ]
>>toutching the sides. A stuck reed is obvoius, but one that has a loose
>>mounting pin, or is slightly cocked in it's slot is a bit tougher, as
>>the problem these issues cause aren't allways consistent.
>
> Here is another use for the shim stock. A piece vertical on
>either side of the reed helps to hold it centered in the slot as you
>pein the rivet (or in my case, tighten the screws on the clamp bar over
>the root of the reed.)
>
>------------> Hey .. Another good idea. Do you pein with a small
>anvil surface/hammer/puch .. Or press?
Nope -- to both. :-)
Most English construction reeds are secured to their carriers by
a bar of the same material (brass or bronze) across the root end,
secured to the carriers by a pair of screws through the bar, passing
either side of the reed, and threaded into the carrier. (And usually
ground on the bottom to make the threads come out flush. :-)
> I've only tried the hammer
>technique, but getting a consistent pein is a personal pain for this
>player ..
There are a few concertinas -- from about the 1912 period --
including my contrabass -- which use riveted reeds. But they were
abandoned after not too long. They made for a lighter instrument, but
it was more difficult to repair.
[ ... ]
> Well ... there is one thing which can accelerate rusting of the
>reeds. That is to take the instrument from a colder space (air
>conditioned living space in the summer or trunk of a car in the winter)
>to a warmer, more humid space, and then play without allowing the
>instrument to adjust to the ambient temperature. This will encourage
>condensation of humidity onto the reeds (which are probably the coldest
>things in the box, in terms of thermal mass).
>
> This is even worse if you live near salt water, as there will
>always be a bit of salt carried in the mist, and that will really
>accelerate the rusting.
>
>-------------------> Certainly. I got 3 boxes in last year from 3
>different folks .. All from 'the south'. 2 from Florida, and one from
>Alabama, I think .. All were quite badly corroded & rusted. Of course,
>one could certainly get the same here in northern Michigan .. As you say
>.. Bringing the box in and out of the cold, and not allowing it to warm
>up and air properly.
Yep.
>>TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
[ ... ]
> Since the concertina reeds are in dovetailed carriers which can
>be easily slid out of the reed pan, I only need something which is
>sucking air down from outside, so I've fabricated a box which is
>connected to a vacuum pump in a distant room (for noise control), though
>a needle valve and a floating-ball airflow gauge. This allows me to
>sound a reed for minutes at a time, should I need to. But it would not
>work well for accordion reeds -- unless you took the exhaust of the
>vacuum pump and connected it to another hole for reeds which play in the
>other direction.
>
>
>----------------> My first attempt at a tuning station involved a
>vacume cleaner (that had ducted exhaust) and and ample supply of 'duct'
>tape. I won't go any further than that. :-)
I tried one, down in the cellar, and it was not a very good
choice. The next one was a diaphragm pump, and the pulsation modulated
the reeds -- until I stuck a two-hole cork in a 1-gallon cheap wine jug,
with two copper tubes fitted -- one going to the bottom of the jug, and
the other stopping just below the cork. This acted as a reservoir and
produced much more stable airflow.
It eventually got replaced by a Gast rotary graphite vane pump,
at least two rooms away. One of them burned up when a fitting got
clogged over time, and cut the airflow to nothing. (Cats in the house
make a wonderful source of clogging particles. :-) Luckily, I had been
keeping my eyes open at hamfests, and I now have two others -- one
small, and one rather large.
> I quickly settled for the
>bellows. I haven't worked on but a few concertinas, and only cheap ones
>at that.
Those tend to have accordion reeds -- or even "long-plate"
construction on the cheapest -- all the reed pairs for a row of buttons
on a single plate.
> So, you get proper control (volume/pressure) with the needle
>valve? .. I allways seemed to have too much pressure (or suction) and
>not enough volume.
The needle valve is built into the base of a floating ball
airflow gauge, and that feeds into a compartment with a certain amount
of leak. I find that tuning to a given flow works out with the full
range of normal concertina reeds. And I can tune the airflow way down
to find where the reed will just barely start to check whether they all
will work well for quite playing. I can also overdrive the reeds, to
see how much they shift in pitch with airflow. Some shapes (bends) of
reeds are much better at resisting that than others.
I've also got a vacuum gauge designed for checking pressure
differential on different sides of HEPA filters in clean rooms. But
that is too sensitive. It pegs as soon as a reed is inserted in the
tuning fixture. Next re-build, it will go away.
But this kind of fixture would not work on accordion reeds. Or
on the cheap concertina reeds. It is tailored to the dovetailed ones
documented in the "Reedpan" section of my "tour of a concertina" page.
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
>
>
>Hello Michael Bell
>
>>I play concertina, and I find that reeds keep their tune for
>>years, they're very stable. Is that a feature of the traditional long
>>concertina reed or is it because I don't smoke or otherwise add weight
>>to the reeds?
>
>1.
>
>Old Concertina reeds are screwed on the mounted plate. And I Think thats
>a relay good mounting technique. A rivet is not bad, but I have seen
>tuneable reeds for reed tongues produced in Germany the use a similar
>technik. Where the liver plate that holds the tongue towards the Ground
>plate is adjustable.
I agree that the clamped reeds are better than punched and
riveted reeds. No stress from the punching, no stress from the peining
of the rivets, and if something gets out of position, it can be cured
with a screwdriver, some shim stock, and a bit of care. (And, of
course, a slight touch up of the tuning. It *can* be done in the field,
if necessary, and I have done so.
[ ... ]
>4.
>
>I do not think the length of the reed tongue has an effect, but perhaps
>someone else in making a comment on this?
The longer the reed, relative to its width, and pitch, the less
stress from bending, and thus the less work-hardening leading to change
in characteristics. (My opinion, not known to be a fact.)
[ ... ]
>6.
>
>Reeds are relay stabile, and the do not go out of tune as much as one
>would think after this discussion.
>And if you only have one set of reeds and the are tuned in some
>temperament like equal you would not notice a lot if the pith of a
>single reed moves a few cents.
Agreed! It is amazing how far out some reeds have gotten before
someone has brought the instrument to me for re-tuning.
>7.
>
>Reeds are more stabile in pith in respect of temperature as Pipes are.
>The Sound-generating element is the tongue
>And not the air. And that was one of the first reasons why reed
>Instruments war invited in the first place in Europe. To have a tool to
>tune pianos or pipe organ, the first tuninginstruments in the 18th
>century.
And before electronic tuners became so common, there were pitch
pipes, containing either an octave of mouth-blown reeds, or just the
ones to which the strings of the instrument -- e.g. a guitar -- would be
tuned.
>8.
>There ware tests made on a German institute how many cents the everriges
>of people do accept as the same ton when played in a melody. I can not
>tell at the moment what it states. I would have to look up the article
>again, but I think it was stated that it is something around 20 cents,
>or it states that the scale with Pythagorean 5th (realy the 3th are the
>tones that do not fit in the Pytagorean scale the are to high) are still
>tolerable. But for Chords it makes a difference, the character of the
>chords is slightly ganging.
Yes -- sensitivity to pitch change can be very variable,
depending on conditions. While working on an instrument, I can detect
something like a two or three cents difference (barely) in two
supposedly identical reeds sounded in alternating succession. But in
the middle of someone else playing the instrument, it takes a lot more
offset to become obvious.
Dennis Hoshield
I certainly agree with Ike on the importance of the edge of the slot!
It might be often overlooked. Many slot edges, and the entire slot for
that matter, are very rough and inconsistent. Cheap reed blocks look
like they were simply punched, with very little finishing. Sharp, clean
edged corners of these slots are a key starting point for a properly
speaking reed .. Especialy if you want them to speak 'quietly'.
I have just started selling new boxes, and haven't had many brought to
me in the past for work. I do remember a couple tough that were
particularly bad. Seems like cleanliness in some factories is sorely
missing as well. I've taken appart 30 year old boxes that were cleaner
inside than some new ones.
Somewhat related to tuning the reeds mounted in their blocks and in the
box .... I have yet to get the knack of doing a decent job of
re-leathering an ínside' reed .. (not while it's still in the box, of
course) ... I usuall end up cleaning off the beeswax, and removing the
reed assymbly to clean and reapply the leathers. My eyesight isn't what
it used to be .. To make things worse, and I have to get my nose so darn
close to the work, I don't have room to negotiate teezers and the like
to attept it when the reed plate is still attatched to the block.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johann Pascher
Hi, Joe Kesselman!
>I find myself wondering, now that we have electronic keyboards which
>could be microtuned in microseconds, whether anyone has attempted to
>program one to dynamically change its temperment to match what's being
>played. Seems to me that if the program is clever enough, this might
>avoid all the compromises inherent in any particular tuning system...
>though any mistakes it made would be quite painful.
OK: It has been done!!
There is a patent from a German Person I think Berlin, and a major
Producer of Keyboards must have bought this. And there should be
electronic Instruments.
Perhaps someone has details, webbsite or Address I do not know where to
look at the moment.
I know a little of electronic engineering, but I prefer a real
Instrument!!
For me it makes a lot of difference in sound if You use different sales
on a Instrument. On the PC Software You loos nearly everything what make
s the difference.
I did not have the change to hear a new expensive electronic keyboard
until now. But what is possible on Computers it is in no competition to
a physicly tuned Instrumet.
The first attempt to build an Instrument with more as a few “just”
scales was
The “Orthotonophonium” build by Schilmayr 1914 in Stutgart.
Athur von Ottingen 1836-1920 did decine the “Dual Tonsystem” to realise
this “Just System” he needed a Instrument and it was e Harmonium with
blow wind System D1 to d4. His Tonsystem was a 5th and 3th Webb. And it
had 53 tons in an Octave not 12 halftones.
It was possible to tune reeds exact, to produce 53 just 5th s and 31
just Octaves.
In our days there are also many attempts to build Instruments with pure
Intervals.
The einharmonic Organ is an other new attempt:
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/Die_enharmonische_Orgel.htm
Johann
Johann Pascher
Hi, Don!
Thanks for Commenting!
Is good to hear that others also make similar experiences.
1.
> Yes -- sensitivity to pitch change can be very variable,
>depending on conditions. While working on an instrument, I can detect
>something like a two or three cents difference (barely) in two
>supposedly identical reeds sounded in alternating succession. But in
>the middle of someone else playing the instrument, it takes a lot more
>offset to become obvious.
I also mad the experience that the temperature in the room where I am
tuning must be constant, even manipulating on the reeds changes pitch
because the get warmer. And on the next day it has settled again.
There is an other thing if you have two reeds on one tone “Musette” and
if the are tuned very dry the drift of the pitch on both reeds should be
equal at different air pressure.
I know there war some investigations on reed Quality in relation air
pressure and Frequenz change and leakage of air.
Is there someone who has some Article’s?
2.
And about the scale of the concertina a had a look again. I think I did
mean the System You are using.
I had a look at Your WebPages and a made to pictures out of the book I
had.
Have a look and see Yourself.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/concertina.gif
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/concertina-1.gif
I also remember that I have read once some pages on the Webb.
It was a discussion that did go on between musicians in the 18th
century, and it was about sales and temper used in Orchestras and used
on concertinas. Unfortunately I can’t remember a lot any more.
I remember that a well-known Composing did complain abut the technique
concertinas ware tuned! And in the end he committed that it sounded
well. If his music ware played on an Instrument with “just 5th”.
Johann
Johann Pascher
Hi Don!
I had an other look trough your comments!
And I fond a other thing interesting You mentioned!
>I can also overdrive the reeds, to
>see how much they shift in pitch with airflow.
>Some shapes (bends) of reeds are much better at resisting that than
>others.
Can you describe the type of reeds that keep their pitch better as
others at higher air presser?
Do you mean with “bend” really the bend of the reed or the shape?
For wind organs the bend of the reed is used to gangue sound spectrum of
the reed. I have made a picture, I have found in a book, from wind organ
reeds, and there You see also the bend of the reed.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/harmoniumreed.gif
Johann
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 4:57 AM
Subject: SML: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <002c01c2eaa8$ecc6c4d0$3301a8c0@Dennis>,
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>
>Sorry for the re-post of the bulk of the original text ... I've
><SNIP>ped portions to make it shorter.
And I'll snip some more. BTW -- from the following quoted line,
I suspect that you are on the mailing list side, not the newsgroup.
>Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
[ ... ]
> How do you think that *I* got started? I just picked
>concertinas instead of accordions, because that was what I wanted to
>play. :-)
>
>-------> Great! Glad I'm not the only one! :-) I've since been trying
>to wean off the PA's, and stick to just button boxes .. Steirische's,
>etc, as THOSE are what I like to play!
That's it. Go for the instruments which you like to play, and
you can judge the quality of your work more easily. :-)
>>CLEANING & TUNING OF REEDS
[ ... ]
>>I have occasionally resorted to a LIGHT dusting with a wire-brushed
>>dremmel tool, that I would really considder more of a 'hackers' tool.
>
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Already sent.
[ ... ]
> The notes
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
>up and air properly.
Yep.
>>TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
[ ... ]
Squeeze On,
Helen P.
-- Helen
DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
I think that it will take someone else to explain the "wolf 5th"
to me.
"Dave Garland" <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/temper.htm
Helen P.
Say, can we practice those wild pyrotechnics now? <wg>
-- Helen
"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
> 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly.
Helen P. <le...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Would a vacuum cleaner's ducted exhaust work?
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
<much interesting stuff, including...>
John C.
It seems to me that they would have different densities than
regular air and that
it would affect the rate of vibration. e.g denser gases would
cause the reed to sound sharp
and lighter ones to sound flat. Anyone who has inhaled helium is
aware of how it affects the
vocal cords. Nitrogen would probally be the closest thing to
normal air I suppose as approximatly 80 percent of the atmosphere
is nitrogen.
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:b50pt2$p1q$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com...
In article <b4upem$8ib$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net>,
Helen P. <le...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>"Dennis Hoshield" <dh...@youraccordion.com> wrote:
>> 'canned, compressed ' air is very convenient, but costly.
Once upon a time, it was liquid Freon -- the refrigerant. It
Often the cans will contain liquid butane, which like Freon, is
One thing which I use is Compressed CO2 -- which comes in
thick-walled cylinders to handle the greater pressures. They
have a
Dry nitrogen would be a better choice -- no
oxygen to support rust.
DoN. Nichols
John C. <(delete_this)ca...@cablespeed.com> wrote:
>I don't know about using gases other than compressed air.
This was for blowing dust and rust out while cleaning reeds --
not for sounding the reeds.
>It seems to me that they would have different densities than
>regular air and that
>it would affect the rate of vibration. e.g denser gases would
>cause the reed to sound sharp
>and lighter ones to sound flat. Anyone who has inhaled helium is
>aware of how it affects the
>vocal cords.
Well ... it would probably have some mild effect on the pitch,
but nowhere near as much as a pipe-based instrument (flute, pipe-organ,
or the vocal mechanism of a human. It is not the vocal cords
themselves which are affected, but the resonances of the various
windpipe and nasal/mouth cavities which form the pitch and overtones of
speech. (Though it probably also does affect the range of motion of the
cords as well.)
> Nitrogen would probally be the closest thing to
>normal air I suppose as approximatly 80 percent of the atmosphere
>is nitrogen.
Yes -- if we were using this to sound the reeds instead of to
dust them -- but even with compressed dry nitrogen -- in very bulky and
heavy cylinders -- this would hardly be economical. :-)
Enjoy,
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
[ ... ]
>I also mad the experience that the temperature in the room where I am
>tuning must be constant, even manipulating on the reeds changes pitch
>because the get warmer. And on the next day it has settled again.
Of course. I tune a rough pass over several days, and then
re-survey and do a fine-tuning pass within a single day at as constant a
temperature as I can manage.
As for the heat of tuning -- that is one of the benefits of my
vacuum pump driven tuning fixture -- it pulls enough air through the
reed from the room-temperature air so the temperature returns to normal
in a matter of seconds -- and can be watched so changing on the tuning
meter. (Of course, this style of tuning fixture is to practical on
accordion reeds.
>There is an other thing if you have two reeds on one tone “Musette” and
>if the are tuned very dry the drift of the pitch on both reeds should be
>equal at different air pressure.
It should -- but this does not apply in an English system
concertina -- as it has one reed per button per direction. (There are a
few relatively rare exceptions -- but mostly in Italian and German made
concertinas.
>I know there war some investigations on reed Quality in relation air
>pressure and Frequenz change and leakage of air.
>
>Is there someone who has some Article’s?
Not I.
>
>
>2.
>
>And about the scale of the concertina a had a look again. I think I did
>mean the System You are using.
>I had a look at Your WebPages and a made to pictures out of the book I
>had.
>
>Have a look and see Yourself.
>
>http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/concertina.gif
>http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/concertina-1.gif
Well ... the first image is certainly an English system
concertina. (Although it has an interesting way of counting fingers,
starting with the thumb. :-) The second image appears not to be present,
but don't bother finding it and re-posting it -- the one side is
sufficient.
Squeeze On,
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
>
>Hi Don!
>
>
>
>I had an other look trough your comments!
>
>And I fond a other thing interesting You mentioned!
>
>
>
>>I can also overdrive the reeds, to
>>see how much they shift in pitch with airflow.
>
>>Some shapes (bends) of reeds are much better at resisting that than
>>others.
>
>
>
>Can you describe the type of reeds that keep their pitch better as
>others at higher air presser?
First -- I've snipped *way* too much quoted material. :-)
Now -- the bend to which I refer is the shape of the reed as
viewed from an edge -- and in particular, the shape at the moment it is
actually entering the slot. Normally, the reed sits at a very shallow
angle to the carrier -- *above* the carrier, perhaps with some
curvature, but if the pressure needed to push the reed down to just
start to enter the reed carrier's slot produces a straight edge which
enters the entire slot at the same time, you *usually* have the minimum
pitch shift with air pressure.
If the reed is curved so the tip enters first, *or* so the
middle enters first, you will start with one pitch, and (usually
audibly) shift in pitch as the swing of the reed builds up from a silent
stop.
Brass reeds sometimes seem to have a bit of an additional bend
near the tip, so the tip is higher than the rest, but I've never
encountered that on steel reeded instruments.
Johann Pascher
Hi Don!
I had an other look trough your comments!
And I fond a other thing interesting You mentioned!
>I can also overdrive the reeds, to
>see how much they shift in pitch with airflow.
>Some shapes (bends) of reeds are much better at resisting that than >others.
Can you describe the type of reeds that keep their pitch better as others at higher air presser?
Do you mean with "bend" really the bend of the reed or the shape?
For wind organs the bend of the reed is used to gangue sound spectrum of the reed. I have made a picture, I have found in a book, from wind organ reeds, and there You see also the bend of the reed.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/harmoniumreed.gif
Johann
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 4:57 AM
Subject: SML: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <002c01c2eaa8$ecc6c4d0$3301a8c0@Dennis>,
>Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Already sent.
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Yep.
>>TUNING BELLOWS CONSTRUCTION
[ ... ]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
haldavis
Johann Pascher wrote:
>
> Hi Don!
>
>
>
> I had an other look trough your comments!
>
> And I fond a other thing interesting You mentioned!
>
>
>
> >I can also overdrive the reeds, to
> >see how much they shift in pitch with airflow.
>
> >Some shapes (bends) of reeds are much better at resisting that than >others.
>
>
>
> Can you describe the type of reeds that keep their pitch better as others at higher air presser?
>
>
>
> Do you mean with "bend" really the bend of the reed or the shape?
>
>
>
> For wind organs the bend of the reed is used to gangue sound spectrum of the reed. I have made a picture, I have found in a book, from wind organ reeds, and there You see also the bend of the reed.
If you're talking about the reeds in a pipe organ reed pipe, the reeds
are curved because they are "beating" reeds rather than "free" reeds.
Hal
haldavis
Although I haven't tried it for reeds yet, let me suggest that someone
try a product called Seal-All which is available at automotive and some
grocery and other stores.
I first got it to use to seal leaks in automobile gas tanks. It did an
excellent job of sealing the leaks and holes, some of which were almost
large enough to insert a ball-point pen into them.
It adheres very well to clean dry metal as well as a great number of
other materials including leather. The simple directions for use are
printed on the tube in English.
I've seen it in two different sizes neither of which I'd call expensive.
I use it enough that I keep three or four tubes of it around here so
it's handy at all times.
FWIW
Hal
Johann Pascher
No i am not tolking abut a pipe organ!!
Are´t in a pipe ogan beating reeds for "scharrwerke" and olso possibly free reds for ohterregistes as well?
Johann
If you're talking about the reeds in a pipe organ reed pipe, the reeds
are curved because they are "beating" reeds rather than "free" reeds.
Hal
Hal
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Johann Pascher
Thanks Don!
Trough your comments I see that you are tuning Your Instruments very accurate, to your preferred scale.
Is the scale you use equal tempered or an other system?
The second Image is now present, I have forgotten to upload it sorry!
>Brass reeds sometimes seem to have a bit of an additional bend
>near the tip, so the tip is higher than the rest, but I've never
>encountered that on steel reeded instruments.
My be that it was more often used on brassreeds that the reed was bended on the end with pincers to get the wonted curve.
But You state the tip is higher then the rest, and the picture I have shows a bend down.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/harmoniumreed.gif
At the end the tongue gets a bend at the last 5th. A rounding to make the sound of the ton softer.
A sort of intonation. On small 8` less intensive as on normal large 8` reeds.
This curve is left of on 16' and is ends on 4'
It was dun with intonation pincers in different sizes.
German text:
Mannborg hatte das Warenzeichen "Jubilate", Dix hatte "Harmola". Wir
arbeiteten mit keinem Warenzeichen....
Schließich bekommt die Zunge etwa im obersten Fünftel eine kleine Biegung,
eine Rundung, um etwas Schärfe vom Ton zu nehmen, eine Art "Intonation",
beim schmalen 8' weniger intensiv als beim normalen und breiten 8'. Diese
Biegung entfällt unten beim 16' mit der Plattform und endet oben mit leichtem
Übergang etwa bei Nr. 65, d.h. beim 4' nicht die oberste Oktave und beim 2'
nicht die beiden obersten Oktaven. Dazu nahm man eine kleine, halbrunde
"Intonierzange" in verschiedenen Größen.
Johann
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 5:31 AM
Subject: SML: Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Why do they go "out of tune"??
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <3E74DD8D...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at>,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Ike Milligan
work. Use shellac. See my previous post in great detail and don't waste your
time.
--
www.1accordion.net
"haldavis" <hald...@modempool.com> wrote in message
news:3E75A9...@modempool.com...
Ike Milligan
used, and unless you are sure you have something better for the situation,
and know why, don't
change it. I once received an e-mail from someone who wanted to make reeds
by first etching the plates with acid. Re-inventing the wheel is one thing,
but building one from mud is another.
--
www.1accordion.net
"Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b54iud$esi$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
~Dream~
expensive (once you've invest in the regulator and
assorted connectors/hoses)
We had one truck outfitted with Nitrogen bottles, instead
of air compressors, as we used to do a lot of Foam insulation
work in new construction, and freedom from needing electricity
gave us a big leg up... that was way back in the Energy crisis days.
I liked how hassle free the nitrogen was so much, that I
had a rig set up in the shop too... it was just nice to have
clean, quiet, dry, steady air whenever you wanted it. Anyone who
wishes to use an alternative like this - just visit your nearest
bottled air yard, and they'll set you up.
In my current workshop, I don't need much air - just have a
small portable 2 horse Sears from which I fill up a portable
air tank when needed. But for tuning, I stripped an old chord organ
and converted it into a flat-top desk to tune my accordion
reedblocks and individual reeds. It has holes for draw and blow,
plus an intensity control. It works OK. I do chart the reed
pitch(s) from inside the bellows first, then use the desk to
adjust the relative amount of change to the reed, then put 'em
back in and check it again... etc. It sure takes me a long time to
do reeds though. I like Walters method if you're doing a whole
set of reeds from scratch... tune them all just a touch flat
re-installed, as chipping the pitch UP (a tiny bit off the tip)
once they are back in the blocks is so hugely easier than bringing
it back down (fighting the inside reed/leather to get to the belly
for a half-blind scratch)
Also use one of those high-volume air guns for filling air
matresses and the like hooked up to a foot-switch so I can
really blow all the dust and particles out of a reedblock neat...
used to flip open the top-plate of an electrolux for that job,
but the air-gun is handier and cleaner.
~Dream~
DoN. Nichols wrote:
>....if the pressure needed to push the reed down to just
> start to enter the reed carrier's slot produces a straight edge which
> enters the entire slot at the same time, you *usually* have the minimum
> pitch shift with air pressure.
>
> If the reed is curved so the tip enters first, *or* so the
> middle enters first, you will start with one pitch, and (usually
> audibly) shift in pitch as the swing of the reed builds up from a silent
> stop.
nice tidbit to know!
Ciao Ventura
DoN. Nichols
>Trough your comments I see that you are tuning Your Instruments very
> accurate, to your preferred scale.
>
>Is the scale you use equal tempered or an other system?
Normally, I use the chromatic system (1/12th root of 2 pitch
mulitplier). This is far from perfect, but it is at least equally good
(or equally bad) in every key -- and works well with most fretted
stringed instruments..
>The second Image is now present, I have forgotten to upload it sorry!
Not really necessary. The first was sufficient.
>
>
>>Brass reeds sometimes seem to have a bit of an additional bend
>>near the tip, so the tip is higher than the rest, but I've never
>>encountered that on steel reeded instruments.
>My be that it was more often used on brassreeds that the reed was
>bended on the end with pincers to get the wonted curve.
It seems to be too sharp a bend for it to be anything but
intentional.
>
>But You state the tip is higher then the rest, and the picture I have
>shows a bend down.
>
>http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/harmoniumreed.gif
Very different. The brass reeds have a gentle curve upward from
the root to near the tip (the pressure of the airflow makes it nearly
straight as it enters the slot), which is normal for English
construction concertina reeds. Except for the tip -- perhaps the last
1/8th of the length or less, which hasa a visibly noticeable angle
(probably five degrees, to be visible). This may give just a little
more drive form the Bernoulli effect before the reed tip vanishes into
the slot. This may be an attempt to deal with the observed fact that
brass reeds are slower to speak than steel reeds.
haldavis
use...@d-and-d.com wrote:
>
> Really-Reply-To: "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com>
> Really-From: "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com>
>
> work. Use shellac. See my previous post in great detail and don't waste your
> time.
Please give more details on how it doesn't work. I've used it in lots
of other applications of a similar nature and have had no problems with
it yet.
Hal
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> There is a patent from a German Person I think Berlin, and a major
> Producer of Keyboards must have bought this. And there should be
> electronic Instruments.
Good to know; thanks. I'll keep my eyes and ears open.
> I know a little of electronic engineering, but I prefer a real
> Instrument!!
My degree claims I'm an EE, though I haven't used those skills recently.
I prefer an instrument. I don't consider anything that makes sound and
is reasonably controllable less "real" than anything else, just
different. (Some acoustic instruments aren't very controllable either...
that's OK; part of the fun is figuring out how to take full advantage of
what it can do.)
> For me it makes a lot of difference in sound if You use different sales
> on a Instrument.
I presume you mean "scales". I agree, it does. One of the nice things
about electronics is that you have the option of changing that without
having to buy a new box.
> But what is possible on Computers it is in no competition to
> a physicly tuned Instrumet.
We agree that we disagree. Remember, your CD player is a simple computer.
> It was possible to tune reeds exact, to produce 53 just 5th s and 31
> just Octaves.
I believe Harry Partch (if I'm spelling his name correctly) used that
system when designing his instruments and composing for them.
DoN. Nichols
I don't know for sure that it behaves the same way on accordion
reeds. You're in a better position to determine that.
Johann Pascher
Hi, Joe Kesselman,
>>Johann Pascher wrote:
>> There is a patent from a German Person I think Berlin, and a major
>> Producer of Keyboards must have bought this. And there should be
>> electronic Instruments.
>Good to know; thanks. I'll keep my eyes and ears open.
>> I know a little of electronic engineering, but I prefer a real
>> Instrument!!
>My degree claims I'm an EE, though I haven't used those skills recently.
Well I do have some similar degree and I am trainer for EE and IT.
But we know never enough!
>I prefer an instrument. I don't consider anything that makes sound and
>is reasonably controllable less "real" than anything else, just
>different. (Some acoustic instruments aren't very controllable either...
>that's OK; part of the fun is figuring out how to take full advantage of
>what it can do.)
That's relay the point!
>> For me it makes a lot of difference in sound if You use different sales
>> on a Instrument.
>I presume you mean "scales". I agree, it does. One of the nice things
>about electronics is that you have the option of changing that without
>having to buy a new box.
Sorry! Yes I meant scales. Yes that's it. I was thinking of an Instrument
Half electronic for Keyboard and registers, scales and so on.
And with physcal reeds.
There are some Instruments already there. Like the self playing Accordion
The disadvantage is that the use Electro magnets for Valves and the are
Heavy and at the moment the tones are limited because of the weight.
>> But what is possible on Computers it is in no competition to
>> a physically tuned Instrument.
>We agree that we disagree. Remember, your CD player is a simple computer.
Well again I agree and I disagree! If we talk abut CD players or mpeg players,
We know it is just a other way to get the original sound on a medium.
And the reproduction quality depends manly on the sample rate
(sure there would be much more we cold discuss). But it still represents
the original sound more or less.
But with electronically produced sound it is different, You synthetisize everything.
In Vienna, I have heard there is a project on expensive equipment.
And it makes a different attempt to solve the Problem.
The have microsampled over years every Instrument form
Many Orchesters in every way one can play on all Instruments.
And now the reassemble new
Composition for a Composer to hear the composition before it is
played from an orchester.
But in the end the real sound is wonted, just think of reproduction
of our speech on Computers. Yes it will go on, . let's see.
>> It was possible to tune reeds exact, to produce 53 just 5th s and 31
>> just Octaves.
>I believe Harry Partch (if I'm spelling his name correctly) used that
>system when designing his instruments and composing for them.
Johann
Ike Milligan
seal-all I tried before. If you haven't used it on accordions,as you claim,
you are speculating about something that is almost certainly inferior to
tried and true methods. Not trying to start a flame war, but if you have no
sqeezebox experience with it, you are wasting everyone's time and bandwidth.news:3E76BF...@modempool.com...
Johann Pascher
Thanks again, Don!
>>Trough your comments I see that you are tuning Your Instruments very
>> accurate, to your preferred scale.
>>
>>Is the scale you use equal tempered or an other system?
> Normally, I use the chromatic system (1/12th root of 2 pitch
>mulitplier). This is far from perfect, but it is at least equally good
>(or equally bad) in every key -- and works well with most fretted
>stringed instruments..
Du You have Your system of tuning, listening to chords or some other way, or do you only use the tuner?
I had a look at the following page, and I found a sentence:
http://www.concertina.net/fe_guild.html
Frank Edgley of Windsor, Ontario
He suggested the following:
1.. Go to a standard concertina tuning, either Wheatstone or Jeffries
Is there a standard concertina tuning?
>>The second Image is now present, I have forgotten to upload it sorry!
> Not really necessary. The first was sufficient.
>>
>>
>>>Brass reeds sometimes seem to have a bit of an additional bend
>>>near the tip, so the tip is higher than the rest, but I've never
>>>encountered that on steel reeded instruments.
>>My be that it was more often used on brassreeds that the reed was
>>bended on the end with pincers to get the wonted curve.
> It seems to be too sharp a bend for it to be anything but
>intentional.
>>
>>But You state the tip is higher then the rest, and the picture I have
>>shows a bend down.
>>
>>http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/bilder/harmoniumreed.gif
> Very different. The brass reeds have a gentle curve upward from
>the root to near the tip (the pressure of the airflow makes it nearly
>straight as it enters the slot), which is normal for English
>construction concertina reeds. Except for the tip -- perhaps the last
>1/8th of the length or less, which has a visibly noticeable angle
>(probably five degrees, to be visible). This may give just a little
>more drive form the Bernoulli effect before the reed tip vanishes into
>the slot. This may be an attempt to deal with the observed fact that
>brass reeds are slower to speak than steel reeds.
Also interesting! I hope someone else is contributing to this question to.
Jim Lucas
> Ok I tell Yo whre You can find the Artikel:
> http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/weischet.pdf
Thanks.
> Mr Weischet stats that:
>
> 1885 it was 435Hz
> 1939 440 Hz in der Sek.
> I have also included a piece in German language.
Thanks. If I read that correctly, the only standard he refers to is one
adopted at a 1939 Conference in London: A=440. But he says that the
harmonium makers ignored it and retained an older A=435 standard. And he
mentions numerous other frequencies for A, which clearly indicates a lack
of universal standardization, at least prior to 1939.
In fact, 1939 seems to me rather late for adoption of the A=440 standard.
Is it possible that the Conference only formalized what had already become
more or less a de facto standard, at least among "classical" musicians? I
thought that the majority (though not all) of concertinas from as early as
1900 were originally tuned to A=440.
It would be nice to have more than one reference.
Jim Lucas
> >> I know a little of electronic engineering, but I prefer v
> >> a real Instrument!!
Joe Kesselman responded...
> My degree claims I'm an EE, though I haven't used
> those skills recently.
Ambiguity strikes again. In many circles, "EE" means "elementary
education".
/Jim
Johann Pascher
Hi, Jim Lucas
Sorry, It does not matter EE or something else, I did think it means Electronic Engineer
In Austria we have anyway different "degrees"
I am working with my hands and my head..
Johann
----- Original Message -----
From: use...@d-and-d.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
To: squee...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: SML: EE?
Really-Reply-To: "Jim Lucas" <j...@danbbs.dk>
Really-From: "Jim Lucas" <j...@danbbs.dk>
/Jim
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jim Lucas
> >6.
> >
> >Reeds are really stable, and they do not go out of tune
> >as much as one would think after this discussion.
> >And if you only have one set of reeds and they are
> >tuned in some temperament like equal you would not
> >notice a lot if the pitch of a single reed moves a few
> >cents.
DoN. Nichols replied...
> Agreed! It is amazing how far out some reeds have gotten before
> someone has brought the instrument to me for re-tuning.
I think there could be an additional factor at work here. My experience
suggests that two reeds sounding together can actually cause each other's
resonances to shift -- *very* slightly -- so that they are actually more
in tune with each other than if each were sounded separately.
> And before electronic tuners became so common, there
> were pitch pipes, containing either an octave of mouth-
> blown reeds, or just the ones to which the strings of the
> instrument -- e.g. a guitar -- would be tuned.
They are still made... and used. :-)
Johann Pascher
Hello again, Jim Lucas!
Thanks for Your comment!
>Johann Pascher wrote ...
>> Ok I tell You where You can find the Artikel:
>> http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/de/h/weischet.pdf
>Thanks.
>> Mr Weischet states that:
>>
>> 1885 it was 435Hz
>> 1939 440 Hz in der Sek.
>> I have also included a piece in German language.
>Thanks. If I read that correctly, the only standard he refers to is one
>adopted at a 1939 Conference in London: A=440. But he says that the
>harmonium makers ignored it and retained an older A=435 standard. And he
>mentions numerous other frequencies for A, which clearly indicates a lack
>of universal standardization, at least prior to 1939.
Yes it correct!
>In fact, 1939 seems to me rather late for adoption of the A=440 standard.
>Is it possible that the Conference only formalized what had already become
>more or less a de facto standard, at least among "classical" musicians? I
>thought that the majority (though not all) of concertinas from as early as
>1900 were originally tuned to A=440.
My be that classical music at concerts tended to higher Frequnz es even today the use more as 440 and I have found a page for Indian Harmoniums that use 441 today.
>It would be nice to have more than one reference.
Yes I hope we find some more, or others contribute to.
Johann
Johann Pascher
Hi, Jim Lucas
>> Johann Pascher wrote:
>> >6.
>> >
>> >Reeds are really stable, and they do not go out of tune
>> >as much as one would think after this discussion.
>> >And if you only have one set of reeds and they are
>> >tuned in some temperament like equal you would not
>> >notice a lot if the pitch of a single reed moves a few
>> >cents.
>>DoN. Nichols replied...
>>Agreed! It is amazing how far out some reeds have gotten before
>> someone has brought the instrument to me for re-tuning.
>I think there could be an additional factor at work here.
>My experience suggests that two reeds sounding together
>can actually cause each other's
>resonances to shift -- *very* slightly -
>so that they are actually more
>in tune with each other than if each were sounded separately.
Yes it is very delicate, I made the same experience.
I think it depends mainly on the coupling;
I know this effect from tuning electronic circuits too.
I can be very good demonstrated with electronic circuits.
I had a problem on chords on the bassside because 4 reeds are very close together and it is difficult to tune the chords "just",
On the discant it is no problem at all to tune "just chords" because the reeds do not couple as much as on the other side.
>> And before electronic tuners became so common, there
>> were pitch pipes, containing either an octave of mouth-
>> blown reeds, or just the ones to which the strings of the
>> instrument -- e.g. a guitar -- would be tuned.
>They are still made... and used. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>Is the scale you use equal tempered or an other system?
>
>> Normally, I use the chromatic system (1/12th root of 2 pitch
>>mulitplier). This is far from perfect, but it is at least equally good
>>(or equally bad) in every key -- and works well with most fretted
>>stringed instruments..
>
>
>Du You have Your system of tuning, listening to chords or some other
> way, or do you only use the tuner?
I use the tuner, as it is more accurate than my ears. I can
detect close differences in two supposedly identical notes sounded in
close sequence (e.g. push and pull on the same button), but I can't tell
which is *right* by ear. And If I tried tuning intervals by ear, I
would wind up with the pitch pulled towards purer intervals, which would
then make them less suitable with other notes. Since most English
system instruments are played in lots of different keys, and with lots
of other instruments the known imperfections of the chromatic scale
(1/12th root of 2 intervals) is the best choice for most.
>I had a look at the following page, and I found a sentence:
>
>
>
>http://www.concertina.net/fe_guild.html
>
>
>
>Frank Edgley of Windsor, Ontario
>
>He suggested the following:
>
> 1.. Go to a standard concertina tuning, either Wheatstone or Jeffries
>Is there a standard concertina tuning?
Well ... the Mention of Jeffries takes us into either the Anglo
system, or the Jeffries duets (rather rare), so I think that the
discussion quoted covers the choices of notes within anglos, which don't
(usually) have all of the full chromatic scale available, though some
can come close.
[ ... ]
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hmm ... did you attach an image? Or a HTML copy? Whatever, the
mailing list seems to have decided to trim it. Be warned that such will
*always* be trimmed by the mailing list -- even "vcards" put on in place
of .sig blocks by some software.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> education".
Not on this side of the puddle. May depend on whether you speak English
or American...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> But with electronically produced sound it is different, You synthetisize everything.
Offtopic for this newsgroup, but ... Not always. As you pointed out,
sampling keyboards are not synths in the traditional sense. Admittedly
there are compromises and approximations made in how much is recording
and how much is approximation, but there is no longer a clean line
between electronically produced, and electronically reproduced.
> But in the end the real sound is wonted, just think of reproduction
> of our speech on Computers.
That *is* still synthesized... but some of the newer versions of that
code have remarkably good prosody, and they're improving as a result of
the same work that's leading to better speech recognition systems.
Remember Moore's law.
haldavis
Johann Pascher wrote:
>
> Well again I agree and I disagree! If we talk abut CD players or mpeg players,
>
> We know it is just a other way to get the original sound on a medium.
Hi Johann,
It's my understanding that the original sound is analogue while those
versions on CD and MPEG are digital. In that case the converted files
is not the original sound but a close proximation of the original if
done most effectively. Though the differences may be subtle to the
untrained ear they do exist, therefore you are not getting the original
sound on a digital medium.
In addition, the CD and MPEG sound files need to be re-converted back to
analogue in order to hear them. Again, not an exact conversion, close
but not exact.
Just wondering.
FWIW
Hal
haldavis
> I don't know why it doesn't work, since i am not sure it is the same
> seal-all I tried before. If you haven't used it on accordions,as you claim,
> you are speculating about something that is almost certainly inferior to
> tried and true methods. Not trying to start a flame war, but if you have no
> sqeezebox experience with it, you are wasting everyone's time and bandwidth.
Sorry, didn't mean to put you on the spot. Though I haven't used it
on accordion reeds I have used it for years on pipe organs and have
never had a problem and find it superior to the "tried and true" methods
of centuries past. In my experience it's an improvement over the "old
original."
I just thought perhaps you'd share your experiences with it. That's
all.
Hal
Jim Lucas
> > Ambiguity strikes again. In many circles, "EE" means
> > "elementary education".
>
> Not on this side of the puddle. May depend on whether
> you speak English or American...
Sorry, Joe, but I *do* mean on the American side. My dad was a
"double-E" -- an electrical engineer, -- but when got older I discovered
that there were many people who understood "double-E" to mean "elementary
education" (as in teaching elementary school) and were unaware of the
engineering interpretation.
At "engineering" schools like Caltech and MIT, of course, the
"grade-school" interpretation was not the first to come to mind.
/Jim
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> there were many people who understood "double-E" to mean "elementary
> education" (as in teaching elementary school) and were unaware of the
> engineering interpretation.
I haven't encountered it yet, but I've been travelling in engineering
circles so I'm seeing a biased sample. I'll take your word for it.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> versions on CD and MPEG are digital. In that case the converted files
> is not the original sound but a close proximation of the original
MPEG uses "lossy compression", and *does* sacrifice some sound quality
to gain compactness. MD's (Minidisks) do the same thing. CDs do not
compress, and are limited only by the sampling rate and sampling
depth... which were chosen to yield less error than the human ear can
detect.
Remember, even your analog stereo system, no matter how good it is, can
only reproduce an approximation of the original signal. There are
distortions and approximations throughout the system.
The difference between "analog sound" and "digital sound" is more one of
people having gotten used to a specific set of distortions than anything
else. Plus some placebo effect.
Ike Milligan
the accordion leathers, particularly if one is do one's own reed overhaul
every year or so, and shellac can easily be removed form the leathers if it
was correctly applied in the first place. With reed organs you probably have
larger pieces of leather and not so easily damaged.
--
www.1accordion.net
"haldavis" <hald...@modempool.com> wrote in message
news:3E7912...@modempool.com...
Johann Pascher
Hi Hal,
>Hi Johann,
Yes I agree. I did not wont to go deep into the exact technical facets of reproduction of sound.
Perhaps I should have made clear that synthetic construction of sounds can not produce what you get when you tune real reeds to special tunings.
I hear much more facets of sounding as I get with synthetic construction.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Perhaps I should have made clear that synthetic construction of
> sounds can not produce what you get when you tune real reeds to
> special tunings.
If you'd change that "can not" to "does not, in current
commercially-available instruments", we agree.
If not, we agree that we disagree.
Johann Pascher
Hello Joe Kesselman!
>Johann Pascher wrote:
>> Perhaps I should have made clear that synthetic construction of
>> sounds can not produce what you get when you tune real reeds to
>> special tunings.
>If you'd change that "can not" to "does not, in current
>commercially-available instruments", we agree.
Should I Interpret Your change of the original sentence that you think
That in future time it will be possible to construct all the facets of
A physical soundgenerating Instrument with electronic equipment?
I do not know, but I know that I dos not mean anything if I think so.
Because I have been convinced to change my mind many time before.
And in respect of the technical innovation, I did believe in many things what should have been possible already and it is not around for us to use.
Just one example, I thought in the 70tis Flat screen Monitors will be there in a few Years and it did take until our days. And I never would have thought that it could be possible to have three dimesin pictures without wearing glasses on
Flat screens, And now it is invented!
>If not, we agree that we disagree.
Anyway Joe, I think we agree in many ways and You are in a better position
To explain things, because You can use Your own language to explain things.
I also agree in everything You have commented in the following question!
Johann
>haldavis wrote:
>> versions on CD and MPEG are digital. In that case the converted files
>> is not the original sound but a close proximation of the original
>MPEG uses "lossy compression", and *does* sacrifice some sound quality
>to gain compactness. MD's (Minidisks) do the same thing. CDs do not
>compress, and are limited only by the sampling rate and sampling
>depth... which were chosen to yield less error than the human ear can
>detect.
>Remember, even your analog stereo system, no matter how good it is, can
>only reproduce an approximation of the original signal. There are
>distortions and approximations throughout the system.
>The difference between "analog sound" and "digital sound" is more one of
>people having gotten used to a specific set of distortions than anything
>else. Plus some placebo effect.
--
>Joe Kesselman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ricky Dietsch
"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
news:00a001c2efd0>
>
> Should I Interpret Your change of the original sentence that you think
>
> That in future time it will be possible to construct all the facets of
>
> A physical soundgenerating Instrument with electronic equipment?
>
The technology exists today, but there is little money in building a box to
allow people to play with all the parameters involved. If there were a
million people out there with a need to make these sounds there would be 5
brands of boxes available. But alas, there are probably ony 200 people in
the world that would want a device that sohpisticated.
I was playing with different temperments when the TRS-80 computer was
available from Radio Shack. It was a slow tedious thing but it could be done
with a fairly simple program written in BASIC. And I learned that if you
diviated too far from what people are used to hearing they really hated it.
I have read that some of the tuners in Italy have programs that set up
tunings for reeds tuned outside the box that take into account many of the
variables that affect the reeds when they are put back in the the box. Some
say they do a good job, and other say they miss the mark.
Ricky
Jack J. Woehr
>
> "Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
> news:00a001c2efd0>
> >
> > Should I Interpret Your change of the original sentence that you think
> >
> > That in future time it will be possible to construct all the facets of
> >
> > A physical soundgenerating Instrument with electronic equipment?
> >
>
> The technology exists today, but there is little money in building a box to
> allow people to play with all the parameters involved.
The problem is how the player communicates musical intent to the device. One
can vary tremendously the sound production and tone quality of a classical instrument
by muscular action.
Besides, when the power goes out, I can still play concertina!
--
Jack J. Woehr # Ceterum censeo
PO Box 51, Golden, CO 80402 # in herbas belli
http://www.softwoehr.com # ab idem desistamus.
Johann Pascher
Hi, Ricky Dietsch.
Fist of all thanks for your replay!
I got the impression you died use electronic equipment to do different
Tunings for music you composed, I am right?
Are you are playing an Instrument Yourself too, I would think so?
I would like to make some comments again.
>"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
>news:00a001c2efd0>
>>
>> Should I Interpret Your change of the original sentence that you
think
>>
>> that in future time it will be possible to construct all the facets
of
>>
>> A physical soundgenerating Instrument with electronic equipment?
>>
>The technology exists today,
We would have to prove this circomstace first; I do not think it is the
case today. I depends what criteria you put down in compereation with
the
Physical instrument.
>but there is little money in building a box to
>allow people to play with all the parameters involved.
I agree even you use equipment that is available today it would be
difficult to use all the parameters involved to syntheticice the sound.
So I still prefer Instruments and musicians who can perform in away we
are touched when we are lessening.
>If there were a million people out there with a need to make these
>Sounds there would be 5 brands of boxes available. But alas, there are
>probably ony 200 people in the world that would
>want a device that sohpisticated.
And then, think it only needs a mouth harmonika and a good player to
Reproduce much more as 12 tones on a diatonic instrument, bending and
over blowing is used and so on..
>I was playing with different temperaments when the TRS-80 computer was
>available from Radio Shack.
>It was a slow tedious thing but it could be done
I would like to demonstrate you the difference, just playing triads
on physical reeds and on the equipment you used.
But I can understand what you wont to say because I stared also with
electronic equipment because I am an electronic engineer and I have
written some software too.
>with a fairly simple program written in BASIC.
Yes, but you only get a small window of the reel sound! And the sound is
mixed with some error sound too.(One could explan this very deeply)
>And I learned that if you diviated too far from what people are used to
>hearing they really hated it.
Yes there is a small pathway we have to go, not everything possible my
sound good! And again it is not proved, what the mass of people like
without having trained their ears. Just take inter consideration
classical music in their vireos stiles over the centuries, who likes
everything?
>I have read that some of the tuners in Italy have programs that set up
>tunings for reeds tuned outside the box that take into account many of
the
>variables that affect the reeds when they are put back in the box.
>Some say they do a good job, and other says they miss the mark.
This is some other question!
I know that, it is a known practice in mass production that for a series
The tune the fist Instruments then take the reeds out again, measure the
Frequnz of the reed on the tuning equipment in the reed production again
And set-up a table with the measured stuff.
And for the series the reeds are tuned automatically to this frequnzis.
The tables are written in tempered scale with + or – cents for each
tone.
For mass instruments the final tuning is usually only dune for the 2. 3.
and 4. reed set to mach the tremolo –M,M,H+ or similar.
My be someone else knows more to this Question.
Johann
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Should I Interpret Your change of the original sentence that you think
> That in future time it will be possible to construct all the facets of
> A physical soundgenerating Instrument with electronic equipment?
Yes. It's possible _now_, I think, but would cost more than most folks
are willing to pay.
> Anyway Joe, I think we agree in many ways and You are in a better position
> To explain things, because You can use Your own language to explain things.
That's definitely true. Actually, your English is good enough that I
sometimes forget that you're forced to translate...
(When I was actively using it, my Spanish was just good enough to get me
into trouble -- my ability to speak the language was better than my
ability to understand it. These days I remember only enough to apologise
for not knowing more.)