B/C or C#/D for first Irish BB?
Thomas Smith
I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a lot
to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and C#/D.
I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB players
out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon, etc.)
Tom Smith
Gary Chapin
Well, if you listen to players of either style, they have pretty distinct
characteristics. Joe Burke and James Keane and Billy McComiskey are great
B/C players. Jackie Daly and Brendan Begley and Sharon Shannon are top
notch C#/D. B/C tends to be more fluid, the ornaments are more
"fiddle-ish" to me. C#/D players tend to have more of a push/pull feel to
them -- a great lift. I have to say I prefer the C#/D sound to the B/C (as
much as I love Burke's playing!). I think the learning curve for either
instrument is pretty steep, so I don't think "ease of play" will make the
decision for you.
My advice: decide what sound you want.
Gary Chapin
>I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
>C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a lot
>to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
>invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and C#/D.
>I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
>told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB players
>out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon, etc.)
>
>Tom Smith
>
>
>
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Mitch Gordon
There's one advantage to the B/C that may or may not be relevant to you, namely
the three instructional videos I know about are all for B/C (Homespun has an
introductory one taught by John Williams, and there's a couple from a company
in Belfast, one of which is introductory and the other on ornamentation for
intermediate players). There are no instructional materials, particularly
videos, for D boxes. So if you plan to teach yourself, and want a little
guidance, you should stick to B/C. Otherwise, I don't know what the advantages
and disadvantages are, especially with respect to playing. I've seen both
played by professional players (and some other flavors like D/C#).
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
>
>Perhaps I could get some advice from the many members of this group?
>
Chris Moran
Tom, Do you live near a box-player who can teach you one-on-one? If so, what
type of box does she or he play? It is a great gift to have a local teacher.
I would learn on whatever type of box that they would teach on.
If you don't have a local teacher, whose music do you really enjoy, beyond
all others?
This gets a little tricky because, for example, Sharon Shannon plays a C#/D
a good deal of the time, she also plays a heck of a lot of B/C...usually the
more complex and spectacular reels! The Connemara and Donegal players like
Dermot O' Byrne and Johnny Connolly have a lot of music in "D" and "A" so
they tend towards the "D" melodeon or the melodeon style C#/D box. The East
Galway style players like Paddy O'Brien, Martin Mulhaire, James Keane, Joe
Burke and Billy McComiskey need the fluidity and versatility of the B/C.
Kerry and Cork players like Johnny O' Leary, Brendan Begley and Jackie Daly
play more "D" music and also favor the "D" melodeon and C#/D instrument.
Then of course you have the players like Bobby Gardiner and PJ Hernon who
play B/C accordions AND "D" melodeons!
In a word, you can't go wrong, just different. It is a matter of style and
preference not "better" and "best". I'm a C#/D player, but I'm the first to
admit that it CAN be more limiting than B/C style for the average player.
Most of it revolves around the music you most enjoy listening to.
Cheers,
--Chris Moran
----------
>From: Gary Chapin <gch...@ctel.net>
>To: "Thomas Smith" <tbs...@exis.net>, squee...@hockeytape.com
>Subject: Re: SML: B/C or C#/D for first Irish BB?
>Date: Tue, Nov 9, 1999, 6:10 PM
>
>Well, if you listen to players of either style, they have pretty distinct
>characteristics. Joe Burke and James Keane and Billy McComiskey are great
>B/C players. Jackie Daly and Brendan Begley and Sharon Shannon are top
>notch C#/D. B/C tends to be more fluid, the ornaments are more
>"fiddle-ish" to me. C#/D players tend to have more of a push/pull feel to
>them -- a great lift. I have to say I prefer the C#/D sound to the B/C (as
>much as I love Burke's playing!). I think the learning curve for either
>instrument is pretty steep, so I don't think "ease of play" will make the
>decision for you.
>
>My advice: decide what sound you want.
>
>Gary Chapin
>
>>I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
>>C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a lot
>>to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
>>invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and C#/D.
>>I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
>>told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB players
>>out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon, etc.)
>>
>>Tom Smith
>>
>>
>>
Mitch Gordon
There's one advantage to the B/C that may or may not be relevant to you, namely
the three instructional videos I know about are all for B/C (Homespun has an
introductory one taught by John Williams, and there's a couple from a company
in Belfast, one of which is introductory and the other on ornamentation for
intermediate players). There are no instructional materials, particularly
videos, for D boxes. So if you plan to teach yourself, and want a little
guidance, you should stick to B/C. Otherwise, I don't know what the advantages
and disadvantages are, especially with respect to playing. I've seen both
played by professional players (and some other flavors like D/C#).
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
>
>Perhaps I could get some advice from the many members of this group?
>
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Well, if you listen to players of either style, they have pretty distinct
> characteristics. Joe Burke and James Keane and Billy McComiskey are great
> B/C players. Jackie Daly and Brendan Begley and Sharon Shannon are top
> notch C#/D. B/C tends to be more fluid, the ornaments are more
> "fiddle-ish" to me. C#/D players tend to have more of a push/pull feel to
> them -- a great lift. I have to say I prefer the C#/D sound to the B/C (as
> much as I love Burke's playing!). I think the learning curve for either
> instrument is pretty steep, so I don't think "ease of play" will make the
> decision for you.
>
> My advice: decide what sound you want.
>
> Gary Chapin
>
> >I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
> >C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a lot
> >to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
> >invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and C#/D.
> >I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
> >told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB players
> >out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon, etc.)
> >
Given that they all play in the same key, as I understand it. Am I correct?
Wouldn't it be the same fluid style for B/C to play in C as for C#/D to play in
D?
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Tom -
>
> There's one advantage to the B/C that may or may not be relevant to you, namely
> the three instructional videos I know about are all for B/C (Homespun has an
> introductory one taught by John Williams, and there's a couple from a company
> in Belfast, one of which is introductory and the other on ornamentation for
> intermediate players).
Does it really matter? Isn't it like talking about the advantages of G/C compare
to D/G?
I mean as far as fingering goes they all are the same, right? Learn your C#/D from
the videos and just pretend it's B/C.
Even reading music will not be a problem as far as you realise that you play in
different key. You're not talking about solfeggio. Before my Castagnari G/C
arrived I used my Hohner A/D for studying Mally's Melodeon Methods for D/G. Didn't
see any difference. Either I transposed the tunes to G/C (and marked A/D as if it
was G/C) or just ignored notation and stuck to audio tape.
Tony Ziselberger
At 05:50 PM 11/10/1999 GMT, you wrote:
>Really-From: mitc...@aol.com (Mitch Gordon)
>
>Tom -
>
>There's one advantage to the B/C that may or may not be relevant to you, namely
>the three instructional videos I know about are all for B/C
>Oakland, CA
This is true for books as well. There is one book, by David Hanrahan, called
"The Box" published, I believe by Walton's. Its not very good, but its all
I've ever seen.
If you are in the USA, you are more likely to find B/C than C#/D teachers.
B/C was the dominant style from the late 1940's until Jackie Daly came on
the scene in the 1970's and the current revival in C#/D playing hasn't hit
as strongly in the US. (Exceptions are Patty Furlong in New York
{www.pattyfurlong.com} and Bob Abrams in, I believe, New Hampshire.) Most of
the summer camps (Augusta, Catskills Irish Arts Week, Swannanoa etc) hire
one box teacher, usually a B/C player. Seamus Connolly's Boston Irish Arts
Week, usually has both B/C and C#/D teachers.
If you are used to playing a press-draw style, C#/D will be a little easier
at first. I'm a B/C player and I find it, in the right hands (Billy
McComiskey, James Keane, Colin Nea, both Paddy O'Briens), a little more
elegant than the C#/D, but of course I'm biased. C#/D accordions are awesome
for the polkas and slides of Kerry, B/Cs fit the complex, noty music of East
Galway very well. Either instrument will do you just fine and will be
readily accepted by traditional players.
>>
>>Perhaps I could get some advice from the many members of this group?
>>
>>I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
>>C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a lot
>>to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
>>invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and C#/D.
>>I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
>>told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB players
>>out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon, etc.)
>>
>>Tom Smith
>
>
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Tony Ziselberger to...@folk.org
North American Folk Music & Dance Alliance Phone(202) 835-3655
1001 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 501 Fax (202) 835-3656
Washington, DC 20036 http://www.folk.org
Thomas Smith
helpful. After reading what everyone had to say and visiting a few web sites
and gathering more information (and thinking hard about the style I want to
learn and listening to those BB players I really like as Chris suggested) I
have decided to go with a C#/D box (and I like the idea of it doubling as a
D melodeon instead of having to play across the rows of the B/C box). Since
I have been learning on a C/F Erica I am already on the path to playing
melodeon style, so I will stay on that path. And I like the push/pull style
of the C#/D too.
As far as being fortunate enough to have a local teacher... I am in the US
(along the ocean at Virginia Beach) and the search for a local teacher has
proven fruitless. I'm still hoping that I may be able to find one (even if
he or she resides an hour or two away). As Mitch pointed out, the amount of
instructional videos for C#/D is also scarce (there is an intermediate level
video by Peter Brown called "Irish Button Accordion Techniques" which is for
B/C and C#D). I could buy the B/C videos but other than learning to play in
the wrong key I don't see the worth... the systems and styles are too far
different. Since I am on my own in this endeavor I will be relying on my CD
library and my knowledge of music (woodwinds and guitar). And I think I will
always be able to have any questions answered by the good people I have
talked with here. Thanks for all the help.
Cheers,
Tom Smith
Thomas Smith wrote in message <3828...@grouper.exis.net>...
Mitch Gordon
case, I'm a beginner, and unable to find an Irish box teacher in the area, so I
feel a bit insecure about the lack of support for my learning process. Knowing
that there are videos for the exact box I have is a nice crutch. I've only used
one video so far, the John Williams one on Homespun, but it got me started
successfully, and I intend to go back to it at certain points for exercises,
for bass playing, for ornaments, and other such enhancements. And I can watch
and listen to him play the tunes, and see and emulate exactly what he is doing,
just as I would do with a live instructor. So in the case of a beginner like
myself, I think having access to videos for my box specifically is important. I
will not own an Irish box other than B/C at this stage for that reason.
Tom's situation sounds somewhat different, as he has played other boxes. He
might well be comfortable with buying an Irish box and goofing around with it
until finding the notes and chords in the new system becomes second nature. In
that circumstance, it makes a lot more sense to consider other configurations,
C#/D in particular (people seem to like their D boxes, judging from a previous
thread).
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Bill Hodgson
Hello Misha
Yes it does matter. The tune is different when it is played on different
boxes. Say you have a number which everyone plays in G; it will be quite
different on a G/C, D/G, B/C, or C#/D. I can't imagine anything worse than
these four boxes playing the same tune in a session!
The basic melody will sound different because of bellows direction changes
and finger movements. The ornamentation will use whatever notes come readily
to hand. Don't even think of left hand contribution.
The truth is that tunes can be played better in some keys than others on a
given box. If you listen to an anthology of Irish tunes carefully, you will
be able to tell the key from the ornamentations, if they are all played on
the same box.
Why do you think DBB players drag a selection of boxes to gigs? They have to
if they are to play with other instruments. Key of F is becoming popular
with B/C players, but you have to play the tune you learnt on a C#/D box (ie
in G) out of kindness to the band.
Bill Hodgson
> Does it really matter? Isn't it like talking about the advantages of G/C
compare
> to D/G?
> I mean as far as fingering goes they all are the same, right? Learn your
C#/D from
> the videos and just pretend it's B/C.
Han Speek
"Michael (Misha) Berenstein" <mi...@pixar.com> writes:
> Given that they all play in the same key, as I understand it. Am I correct?
> Wouldn't it be the same fluid style for B/C to play in C as for C#/D to play
> in D?
>
No, the B/C played in C would sound as choppy as the C#/D in D. The fluid
playing in D is what is considered the biggest advantage of the B/C system,
and that is only possible because you play across the rows.
Han.
--
H. Speek, B.Sc. H.S...@el.utwente.nl
MESA Research Institute http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/
Univ. of Twente, P.O. Box 217, 7500 AE, Enschede, The Netherlands
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
As Mitch pointed out, the amount of
> instructional videos for C#/D is also scarce (there is an intermediate level
> video by Peter Brown called "Irish Button Accordion Techniques" which is for
> B/C and C#D). I could buy the B/C videos but other than learning to play in
> the wrong key I don't see the worth... the systems and styles are too far
> different.
I would like to point out though, that according to "Mally's Melodeon Method"
playing in English style doesn't mean staying
in one row and play entirely in push/pull. The reason I like these books is
that they teach two rows at once and to use lots of crossfingering, either for
smoother playing, or bass accompaniment. He also suggests to play cross rows
for saving air. If he is an authority in English melodeon playing, where this
perception of one row "English" playing came from?
So far I was not satisfied with the aswers to difference between C#/D and B/C.
Other than having to (eventually) have two boxes to sessions (and BB players
end up with more than two boxes anyway) I don't see, why learning C#/D from B/C
videos is such a bad idea? Those limited instruments are not PA's and not
designed to be played in any key at will. I will venture to say that irish
chromatic is designed to be played in the keys of the bass accompaniment, which
is different for different tunes.
Like my G/C is better be played in Am, Gmaj, Cmaj if you are up to using the
most of bass side (and why not?).
What's a "wrong" key anyway? I learned to play" Italian Polka" by Rachmaninov
in Amin and have no idea what key was it written in. I doesn't prevent kids
dancing to my playing.
The last thing (sorry for long reply): unless you are "profficient" player, I
just don't see any phisical possibility for you to join the sessions with irish
chromatic. And before you will become profficient you have lots of "Mary had a
litle lamb" to do, so the better instruction you have - the best. The least
important issue at this stage is the key. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Hello Misha
> Yes it does matter. The tune is different when it is played on different
> boxes. Say you have a number which everyone plays in G; it will be quite
> different on a G/C, D/G, B/C, or C#/D. I can't imagine anything worse than
> these four boxes playing the same tune in a session!
Are they designed to be played in the same key?
>
>
> Why do you think DBB players drag a selection of boxes to gigs? They have to
> if they are to play with other instruments.
Which answers the question. You can learn B/C and then change it to C#/D for
playing with the band in different key, or may be even have an array of boxes
for different keys. Or if you want to be able to play in all the keys - convert
to 5 row CBA, of just wait for 5-10 years of rigorous practice and become real
good at one given isntrument to play it in whatever key possible.
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> In article <3829B13B...@pixar.com>,
> "Michael (Misha) Berenstein" <mi...@pixar.com> writes:
> > Given that they all play in the same key, as I understand it. Am I correct?
> > Wouldn't it be the same fluid style for B/C to play in C as for C#/D to play
> > in D?
> >
> Hi,
>
> No, the B/C played in C would sound as choppy as the C#/D in D. The fluid
> playing in D is what is considered the biggest advantage of the B/C system,
> and that is only possible because you play across the rows.
>
> Han.
Right, right! that's what I meant. So the playing in D on the B/C is going to be
as smooth as playing C#/D in..., uh, E?
Again, I don't see the difference for learning. Use whatever you can and then
convert.
Thomas Smith
To answer your final sentence ("Correct me if I'm wrong.").... you're wrong.
Maybe one of the Irish BB players can chime in on this and try to make it
more clear, but until then I'll give it my best shot.
First of all when I say I like the push-pull style of the C#/D I am not
saying I am going to stay in one row. That is the a reference to the style
when playing Irish tunes (in the traditional keys) on a C#/D box. With the
B/C box you have more of a choice of notes (in the traditional keys) going
in one direction. Hence B/C is smoother when playing Irish music (in the
traditional keys). I am emphasizing "the traditional keys" here to make my
point as to why there is a difference when playing Irish music on a C#/D
versus a B/C. If you ignore being in the wrong key and play a C#/D BB with
the same fingerings you see on a B/C video you are not learning anything
useful unless you plan to get rid of the C#/D somewhere down the road and
buy a B/C.
Irish players with C#/D boxes tend to play them melodeon style (in the
traditional keys) since the D row is there. B/C players can't do this. The
two instruments spawn two different styles.
As far as the bass goes on an Irish button box, most don't use them, and
those that do on a B/C or C#/D box have them tuned "Irish" to accommodate
the traditional keys (i.e. not tuned to the treble rows as on non-Irish 2
row BBs). And yes, the B/C and C#/D ARE chromatic (the rows are a semi
apart) unlike the non-Irish boxes (which are five) .
And by the way... don't you think the statement "Those limited instruments
are not PA's" is a little condescending (typical)?
Also (FYI), I have played numerous other instruments professionally and
wasn't planning on too many "Mary had a little lambs".
Tom Smith
Michael (Misha) Berenstein wrote in message <382B0FDE...@pixar.com>...
Brian
I've played Irish music my whole life on a piano accordion and I am now
learning
C#/D. My thoughts are this, the music you play is usually your own
interpretation of the tune while staying with the melody. If you listen
to Burke play a tune and then Jackie Daly play the same tune you'll
notice the suttle differences that the different systems use. Triplets
in different places, crans instead of triplets, and other slight
ornamental nuances that each system commands. I play C#/D because that
is the box i inherited. I learn the basic tune and then go on to add
ornaments from there. It really makes no difference which system you use
because you have to play the melody pretty much the same on each but
you'll notice where you can add on whatever box you choose.
You'll enjoy both equally as much. The same amount of practice on either
will get the same amount of result, it's a no lose situation. Practice
,practice, and more practice.
Best of Luck
Brian
Thomas Smith
Thanks for the advise.
As I wrote in another post I've decided to go with a C#/D box. It was a
pretty hard decision because I really do enjoy listening to James Keane
(every time I listen to one of his CDs I think about changing my mind and
going B/C). I just figure that since I'm learning on a C/F BB now (and
playing melodeon style), going with the C#/D makes more sense. As I write
this I can't help but think that maybe I should not be concerned with what
makes more sense. Oh well, I still have a little bit of time to think about
it and maybe change my mind.
If I could find a teacher I would take your advice and play whatever he or
she played but it is not looking good for finding one. However, I will
continue to search for a little while longer before I place my order for a
new BB.
I said earlier that I wanted my new BB tuned dry. Now I have to decide how
dry so I am trying to find a reference point from which I can make a
decision. As I already said I like James Keane and I've been told that
Sharon Shannon (I like here style too) tunes her BBs dry. By any chance do
you know how dry we are talking here? From what I've been told Castagnari
BBs (I plan to buy a Tommy") have two dry tunings: dry and swing(almost
dry). The other two tunings they offer (American Tremolo and Musette) are at
the wet end. I think the American Tremolo is comparable to how Hohners, like
my Erica, come from the factory. Do you know where James Keane's and/or
Sharon Shannon's BBs fall on this scale?
Cheers,
Tom
Chris Moran wrote in message
<1999111005...@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>Well, if you listen to players of either style, they have pretty distinct
>>characteristics. Joe Burke and James Keane and Billy McComiskey are great
>>B/C players. Jackie Daly and Brendan Begley and Sharon Shannon are top
>>notch C#/D. B/C tends to be more fluid, the ornaments are more
>>"fiddle-ish" to me. C#/D players tend to have more of a push/pull feel to
>>them -- a great lift. I have to say I prefer the C#/D sound to the B/C
(as
>>much as I love Burke's playing!). I think the learning curve for either
>>instrument is pretty steep, so I don't think "ease of play" will make the
>>decision for you.
>>
>>My advice: decide what sound you want.
>>
>>Gary Chapin
>>
>>>I'm not new to music but I am new to BB playing. I have a Hohner Erica in
>>>C/F that I have a lot of fun with (mostly on the C side), but I have a
lot
>>>to learn. What I really want is to learn Irish style and I am ready to
>>>invest in nice box. I know I want it dry but I am torn between B/C and
C#/D.
>>>I've been told I one should always start with the B/C and I've also been
>>>told that C#/D is the "only way to go". Any advice from the Irish BB
players
>>>out there? (As far as styles I like.... James Keane, Sharon Shannon,
etc.)
>>>
>>>Tom Smith
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> mailing list from newsgroup rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Mitch Gordon
> What's a "wrong" key anyway? I learned to play" Italian Polka" by Rachmaninov
> in Amin and have no idea what key was it written in. I doesn't prevent kids
> dancing to my playing.
Well, there are definitely wrong keys and right keys in Irish session playing.
In fact, every tune has a key in which it is intended to be played, and with
good reasons. There are thousands of session tunes (which is a lot to learn in
the first place), and having each in a uniform key saves on the complexity of
learning all that stuff. More importantly, several of the traditional
instruments have limitations with respect to the keys they can play in. Sure,
it's not a problem for the fiddler or the bodran player, but pennywhistle
players, flute players, pipers, hammered dulcimer players and yes, the button
box folks, putting a tune in E flat or G sharp would basically make us drop
out, in some cases due to difficulty, in other cases impossibility. So The
Blarney Pilgrim is always in D, and Drowsy Maggie always in E modal.
I've heard tunes taken up to absurd tempos, or slowed down dramatically. People
do all kinds of interesting variations on ornamentation (although there are
schools of thought as to what is traditional and what isn't) and accompaniment.
But the tune is always in its proper key, even when the people at the top of
the field play together.
Those of us who choose to play the box in Irish music, like the other session
instruments, are seeking a connection with a rich, old, traditional culture and
it's music. The traditions are an important part of what attracts us. P/A
playing friends ask me why I'm taking up this crazy bizarre two-row Irish
contraption that requires the most difficult bass-playing scheme imaginable,
and I answer, "because it's the traditional accordion for Irish session
playing". Same reason that Balkan bands have Guida players instead of synth
players. It's the connection with tradition that I think heals us in a
sometimes painful too-modern world.
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
{p.s. English is not Irish - different musical styles.}
Macromed5
Playing "Pigeon on the Gate" in F# minor, I guess.... ;-)
I think the missing ingredient here (as others have pointed out later today) is
that various tunes are commonly played in specific keys. It's not like swing
standards where you can say "'Embraceable You", G-flat". We need to follow the
fiddles and the flutes in this style of music, so certain tunes are played in
particular keys.
A B/C box can give one type of sound on a tune in D, and a C#/D box can give a
different type of sound on the same tune, same key.
Rephrased, if you could play a tune in any key, then you're absolutely right,
you could use the exact same fingering on different types of Irish boxes. But
because the key is a given, the two boxes must use different fingerings for the
same tune. That leads to the different types of sounds associated with them.
Summary: In Irish music certain tunes are played in certain keys. That's why
the difference in the boxes lead to different styles.
(btw, there are many Irish sessions in the San Francisco Bay Area, Misha...
http://www.sfcelticmusic.com/ is one listing. I used to play at these years
ago, on strings, and have thought of bringing my 4-row CBA down, but with the
difference in phrasing I'm leery of sounding like a dork. I think it would be
*possible* to get an authentic sound on such a box, but it would take much more
work and attention than when using a box which leads naturally to those
idiomatic phrasings. I'm not there yet, myself.... ;-)
Regards,
John Dowdell
Han Speek
Well, basically yes. Except that straight E major isn't a very useful key for
Irish music :-( E minor and E dorian are fairly common, but not E major.
And about difference in learning: don't forget that Irish traditional music
is played pretty fast (too fast these days, as many dancers and experienced
dance musicians will tell you), so you will have to practice a fair bit to
get your tunes up to speed. And then suddenly changing them to different
fingering.... is going to cause problems, to say the least.
So if you start out on a B/C and want to change to a C#/D (assuming you play
the same tunes as before, in the same keys as before), it will take quite a
bit of practice time to re-learn your tunes. Some will be more difficult,
others will be easier, but ALL the fingerings are different, so you have to
retrain your "muscle memory", as it is sometimes called. The new fingerings
have to "wear in" before you can get that same speed as you had on the old
system.
BTW Players like Sharon Shannon and John Whelan use the B/C and C#/D side by
side. But they keep the tunes separate - one set of tunes that works for them
on the B/C, and different tunes for the C#/D.
Han Speek
"Thomas Smith" <tbs...@exis.net> writes:
>
> As I wrote in another post I've decided to go with a C#/D box. It was a
> pretty hard decision because I really do enjoy listening to James Keane
> (every time I listen to one of his CDs I think about changing my mind and
> going B/C). I just figure that since I'm learning on a C/F BB now (and
> playing melodeon style), going with the C#/D makes more sense. As I write
> this I can't help but think that maybe I should not be concerned with what
> makes more sense. Oh well, I still have a little bit of time to think about
> it and maybe change my mind.
>
Hi Tom,
According to recent info on the IRTRAD list, James Keane now has a C#/D box
as well as a B/C, both 2-voice Borelli (made by Mengascini) boxes. Similarly,
B/C veteran P.J. Hernon is now also playing the C#/D system side by side with
his old B/C box in his Swallow's Tail Ceili Band.
Thomas Smith
I guess the choice is "where to start" and not "which way to go". From what
you say it appears that if one works hard at it and follows the Irish BB
road long enough the need for both systems will eventually arise.
Cheers, Tom
Thomas Smith
>Those of us who choose to play the box in Irish music, like the other
session
>instruments, are seeking a connection with a rich, old, traditional culture
and
>it's music. The traditions are an important part of what attracts us. P/A
>playing friends ask me why I'm taking up this crazy bizarre two-row Irish
>contraption that requires the most difficult bass-playing scheme
imaginable,
>and I answer, "because it's the traditional accordion for Irish session
>playing". Same reason that Balkan bands have Guida players instead of synth
>players. It's the connection with tradition that I think heals us in a
>sometimes painful too-modern world.
>
>Mitch Gordon
>Oakland, CA
Very well said.
Macromed5
> According to recent info on the IRTRAD list, James Keane now
> has a C#/D box as well as a B/C, both 2-voice Borelli (made
> by Mengascini) boxes. Similarly, B/C veteran P.J. Hernon is now
> also playing the C#/D system side by side with his
> old B/C box in his Swallow's Tail Ceili Band.
That's interesting. I've enjoyed the previous conversation in the thread about
different players from different areas playing in different styles on diferent
boxes.
Anyone care to venture a characterization of how the same player has their
sound change when playing the same tune on a B/C box, and then on a C#/D box?
(Rephrased, what might lead them to choose a B/C over a C#/D for a particular
tune? Does their sound change?)
From the previous info in the thread I'd guess that, for most tunes and most
players, the B/C might be more fluid and ornamented, and the C#/D might tend to
be more propulsive and rhythmic. The key of the tune might be a factor too,
particularly for edge keys like A or F.
Are these fair generalizations, or what have you seen in your own
experience...?
Thanks,
John Dowdell
Han Speek
>
> I guess the choice is "where to start" and not "which way to go". From what
> you say it appears that if one works hard at it and follows the Irish BB
> road long enough the need for both systems will eventually arise.
>
> Cheers, Tom
>
Hi Tom,
Maybe. Maybe not. Joe Burke still sticks with the B/C. And Johnny O'Leary
sticks with the C#/D.
Still each of them probably has as much tunes as Sharon has on her 2 boxes.
So you don't "need" 2 boxes - if you're really good at the system you have.
It is a fact that some tunes are easier on one system, and others on the
other, so if you want life easy you need 2 boxes (not that carrying around
2 boxes is what I'd call easy, mind you :-)
Of course another reason for using 2 different boxes could be diversity,
both of sound and style. All the people I mentioned that are currently using
2 different systems are professional players, and for them putting on a
good "show" is as important as playing good "music". And diversity is part
of a good show.
I think that if you only play in sessions, having your repertoire spread out
over 2 different boxes can be a serious problem. You will always find that
someone starts a next tune that is not suitable for the box that's sitting in
your lap at that moment :-(
So I still think there's a choice to be made. Adn I would suggest this choice
should be based on the style that appeals to you most - to put it simply:
"Do you like Jackie Daly's playing, or do you prefer Joe Burke ?"
Whatever you choose, you'll have to work to become really good - neither
of the 2 systems is easy if you want to reach a more or less professional
level.
Best wishes,
Eric Root
that gets touched on over and over again, and not just in this thread,
especially when talking about Irish music, is this: IMHO folks keep
confusing the ability of an instrument to play the music in a genre
credibly in-style (its suitability to the music) with the question of
whether or not the music-consuming-only public (Ibelieve this is what is
meant by punters?) and the more hidebound/shallower of the players
within the tradition want to see that instrument on stage or on an album
cover.
There is nothing wrong, and it does no damage to the music, for the D/C
and C#/D boxes to ornament somewhat differently. If you have a feel for
the music, and know how to play your box, you will have built up a
repertoire of ornaments/licks/riffs that you will know when and how to
put into the music.
An example from a personal axe to grind: quite a while back on this NG,
someone commented that the English concertina was unsuitable for Irish
music because the button/note layout would lead to different ornaments
than on the Anglo concertina. I contend that the English isn't
_obligated_ to make its ornaments exactly like the Anglo anymore than
_either_ concertina is obligated to make its ornaments just like the
fiddle, the pipes, or the bodhran for that matter. If it doesn't damage
the music that the B/C box doesn't ornament the same as the C#/D or that
the C/G Anglo doesn't ornament the same as the B/C, and no instrument
that plays contiuous notes ornaments the same as a plucked instrument,
then how can some other instrument damage the music _if the musician
really knows how to play the music_ ?
For the folks that say my viewpoint opens up a slippery slope to
allowing the tuba into Irish music, IMHO the tuba belongs in Irish music
exactly as much as the electric bass.
-Eric Root
"No need to use that concertina, son; no one here will hurt you..."
Han Speek
In article <19991112102450...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
macr...@aol.com (Macromed5) writes:
>
> Anyone care to venture a characterization of how the same player has their
> sound change when playing the same tune on a B/C box, and then on a C#/D box?
As I said in one of my earlier replies (at least I hope it was in this thread)
I don't think they actually re-learn the same tune for both boxes. The tunes
that work well on the B/C are played on that, and there are other tunes for
the C#/D. I think it would be awfully hard to actually be able to play all
your tunes in the same key on both systems ! I know for a fact that Sharon
does it this way.
In the other hand, Jackie Daly (known to be firmly in the C#/D camp) can knock
the same tune out of a C#/D box and a B/C box - in the same key ! For him, the
tune's in his head, and his fingers will get the right notes for it on any box.
>
> (Rephrased, what might lead them to choose a B/C over a C#/D for a particular
> tune? Does their sound change?)
>
> From the previous info in the thread I'd guess that, for most tunes and most
> players, the B/C might be more fluid and ornamented, and the C#/D might tend
> to be more propulsive and rhythmic. The key of the tune might be a factor too,
> particularly for edge keys like A or F.
Yes, the key might well be a factor. The key of A, which is quite common for
Kerry music (check Johnny O'Leary's repertoire for A tunes - plenty there !)
is very hard on a B/C, but relatively easy on the C#/D - as easy as the common
key of G on the B/C, in fact. On the other hand, C or F are pretty hard on a
C#/D. Now these are not exactly traditional keys, but for instance Sharon has
fiddler Maire Breathnach in her band for a while, who also plays the viola,
and C or F are ideal keys to bring out that instrument.
G is said to be the easiest key on the B/C (Joe Burke plays in G a lot), and
many people find it hard on the C#/D - never could figure out why, as you only
need one note from the outside row, and Johnny O'Leary plays a lot in G too -
but of course C is pretty trivial, melodeon-style, and F only needs one note
from the outside row (like G on the C#/D - same fingering).
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Michael ,
>
> To answer your final sentence ("Correct me if I'm wrong.").... you're wrong.
> With the
> B/C box you have more of a choice of notes (in the traditional keys) going
> in one direction. Hence B/C is smoother when playing Irish music (in the
> traditional keys). I am emphasizing "the traditional keys" here to make my
> point as to why there is a difference when playing Irish music on a C#/D
> versus a B/C. If you ignore being in the wrong key and play a C#/D BB with
> the same fingerings you see on a B/C video you are not learning anything
> useful unless you plan to get rid of the C#/D somewhere down the road and
> buy a B/C.
Now I see. So the emphasis is to play it in D. Then off course I'm wrong. I'm
coming from G/C melodeon and at that I
chose the keys because I like lower sound of an accordion and D/G is too high
to my taste. After I bought G/C I started discovering all the hipe about the
keys, but didn't care much because even with my G/C (as compare to D/G) I had
and still have so much work to do before I will plan to join the session
seriously, that buying good quality D/G is still not an urgent issue. OK, I got
it. I just don't think that learning from B/C tapes on C#/D is useless if by
learning you mean getting to know your instrument, and not picking up some
tunes. I mean scales (in all the keys, sinse it's chromatic instrument), in
choppy fashion, smooth fashion, learning harmony, reading etc.
I also don't think that having small push/pull instrument and NOT playing it
push/pull is such a good idea. So I suspect that most of B/C players have also
C#/D or such to play in D melodeon style.
>
>
> As far as the bass goes on an Irish button box, most don't use them, and
> those that do on a B/C or C#/D box have them tuned "Irish" to accommodate
> the traditional keys (i.e. not tuned to the treble rows as on non-Irish 2
> row BBs). And yes, the B/C and C#/D ARE chromatic (the rows are a semi
> apart) unlike the non-Irish boxes (which are five) .
>
> And by the way... don't you think the statement "Those limited instruments
> are not PA's" is a little condescending (typical)?
Nope. I don't. These little boxes ARE musically limited and, as everybody
knows, exactly this quality of them makes playing them such a challenge and
leads to wanderful results. Quoting your own words "As far as the bass goes on
an Irish button box, most don't use them". Here you have one limitation.
Another is buttons that play the same note in the same direction in both rows.
So if you "do" use the basses and your note goes in opposite direction, what do
you do? Instead the reedplate might be flipped, but then some other notes will
go into the same direction. It must be seriously redesigned to overcome those
little problems.
>
>
> Also (FYI), I have played numerous other instruments professionally and
> wasn't planning on too many "Mary had a little lambs".
>
> Tom Smith
Good for you. The more I study CBA, the more I understand that playing "Mary
had a little lamb" well, in different keys, with different accompaniment, with
different embellishments, but most of all, with the right dinamic, right
accents, relaxed - is an acheavement of many years of practicing. I think it is
much more challenging than to play some intricate tune, where mistakes can be
blurred and contributes more to the learning curve. It all depends on the goal
off course.
We all heard too many players that rush through the jig without playing music.
It just spells for me "I didn't play Mary had a litle lamb for 2000 times, but
I still have to."
BTW, my mother-in-law bought a book "Weee sing silly songs". Most are English
children's songs with lyrics (how's that?). "Mary had a little lamb", "To
market, to market" etc. All simple tunes. But try to play them on DBB using the
bass accompaniment suggested ! O my God! That's was the real learning and eye
opening for me. That's where I started using all the basses, skipping some of
the chords, trying to play with thirds omitted and using both rows at once.
And they sound so beautiful with the basses!
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> So if you start out on a B/C and want to change to a C#/D (assuming you play
> the same tunes as before, in the same keys as before), it will take quite a
> bit of practice time to re-learn your tunes
I meant just learning on whatever box you have and then, if necessary, to buy a box
in different key.
I just don 't know of anybody who playes DBB well, who doesn't have at least one more
box in different keys.
So if you started learning C#/D pretending it's a B/C, it is not such a disaster. As
to the time you are able to join the session you probably will have a B/C anyway. And
I actually don't think it's wise NOT to have at least two boxes.
Thanks for explanation.
Keuke...@aol.com
In a message dated 11129 10:20:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gat...@d-and-d.com writes:
> So I still think there's a choice to be made. Adn I would suggest this
choice
> should be based on the style that appeals to you most - to put it simply:
> "Do you like Jackie Daly's playing, or do you prefer Joe Burke ?"
Yeah, true, there's a choice to be made, but how can a choice in style
reflect on which BB to start focusing on? Aren't styles individual from the
instrument itself? Won't the best players develop a completely original
style no matter which 'type' of instrument they choose to learn 'first'? Or
is a person wanting to learn an instrument type limited in the instrument
choice pretty much to styles that have already been done before with the
instrument? I guess what I'm asking is, are Jackie Daly's playing and Joe
BurkeI's playing fully representative of the style of each BB system they
represent? This is more a philosophical accordion/musical question, I
suppose, :) , but I'd love to hear some of your takes on it.
chris
Chris
Dennis A. Steckley
Gee, guys, get a PA and you can play any note in any key at any time! Makes
life much simpler!
;>)
Dennis Steckley
>
> As I wrote in another post I've decided to go with a C#/D box. It was a
> pretty hard decision because I really do enjoy listening to James Keane
> (every time I listen to one of his CDs I think about changing my mind and
> going B/C). I just figure that since I'm learning on a C/F BB now (and
> playing melodeon style), going with the C#/D makes more sense. As I write
> this I can't help but think that maybe I should not be concerned with what
> makes more sense. Oh well, I still have a little bit of time to think
about
> it and maybe change my mind.
Macromed5
> any time! Makes life much simpler!
I don't know. Does it sound right? ;-)
(I usually play a CBA freebass myself. But I've been looking at putting time
into some of the push-pull boxes in order to viscerally understand how it leads
to certain styles. There's that "mush" problem to overcome on the big boxes...
finding the right kinds of spaces to leave inside various styles is important
for me. An architect doesn't design in solid granite; they use granite to
outline the spaces where things live.)
One more twist on this long thread: If we're interested in learning styles,
rather than using it as a main box for playing with others, then either a B/C
or a C#/D could do, right? You may listen to a player from the other system and
then play the tune a whole-step off, but you could still use exactly the same
fingering and phrasing that they use.... true?
(If you were on a B/C box, and played "Ships Are Sailing" in D-minor
instead of E-minor, then we'd be using the same fingerings that a C#/D player
would use to play it in the right key. Wouldn't be good for a session, but
would it be useful for understanding a particular player's style...?)
Regards,
John Dowdell
Thomas Smith
>an Irish button box, most don't use them". Here you have one limitation.
How do you come to the conclusion that this is a limitation? I am talking
about when they are not needed or desired. Those that do use them have them
tuned in one of the Irish setups (e.g., Paolo Soprani). I think you'll find
that the basses are not a big part of Irish BB playing (but I could be
wrong... maybe an Irish BB player can answer this).
Tom Smith
Lee Thompson-Herbert
It isn't for the current styles. Try finding old recordings of melodeon
players, and you'll hear something entirely different. In fact, in some
parts of Ireland, the most common tunes were played in C, not D because
the C melodeon was the easiest gotten. The melodeon was used quite a lot in
dance halls, pre-amplification era. As were _loud_ uillean pipes (someone
who played with Seamus Ennis said his set made the room shake), and fifes/
piccolos. The problem with _really_ loud instruments is that you can only
really play with other loud instruments. So nowadays, 2 row irish boxes,
baritone (D) flutes, and quiet uillean pipes are the norm. They can play
in a session with fiddlers, guitarists, mandolineers, blarge players and
whistle players without drowning anyone out.
One reason to _not_ play a B/C box is that they're harder to play in G...
and the other box players will take you outside and beat you if you try
and play tunes in F at a session. We're hated enough already without
pulling stunts like that. ;}
But yes, the basses and bellows articulation do figure in some of the
regional styles. Most prominently in areas with strong local dance
traditions.
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert KD6WUR l...@crl.com
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"There are some people who will argue whether the flames are blue
or green, when the real question is that their arse is on fire."
Han Speek
l...@crl3.crl.com (Lee Thompson-Herbert) writes:
> It isn't for the current styles. Try finding old recordings of melodeon
> players, and you'll hear something entirely different. In fact, in some
> parts of Ireland, the most common tunes were played in C, not D because
> the C melodeon was the easiest gotten. The melodeon was used quite a lot in
> dance halls, pre-amplification era. As were _loud_ uillean pipes (someone
> who played with Seamus Ennis said his set made the room shake), and fifes/
> piccolos. The problem with _really_ loud instruments is that you can only
> really play with other loud instruments. So nowadays, 2 row irish boxes,
> baritone (D) flutes, and quiet uillean pipes are the norm. They can play
> in a session with fiddlers, guitarists, mandolineers, blarge players and
> whistle players without drowning anyone out.
not very prominent in that area, because the 2 instruments favour different
keys.
The dancehall era has indeed spawned a special class of melodeons - the
extra-loud ones ! Boxes with up to 8 reeds per notes were used, but mainly
in the dancehalls in the US - I don't think these big machines were ever
used in Ireland itself.
Compared to older Uilleann pipes sets, which were usually pitched around C
(often called "flat sets", though they were actually the standard for their
times) the sets pitched in D (or concert pitch) as used by Seamus Ennis were
indeed pretty loud. But don't forget that a lot has happened in Irish music
since then. The "drowning" is these days left to the bodhran bashers and
guitar bangers, which in general are most often the disturbing factors at
sessions now. Pipes can be a cause of trouble still, but mainly because
of their intonation, not volume.
>
> One reason to _not_ play a B/C box is that they're harder to play in G...
> and the other box players will take you outside and beat you if you try
> and play tunes in F at a session. We're hated enough already without
> pulling stunts like that. ;}
Say what ? G is one of the most common keys for B/C players, and they
typically prefer it to the key of D. A lot of Joe Burke's playing is in G,
and most of the standard G tunes are much easier on the B/C than on the C#/D.
You're right though in saying that starting a tune in F at a session is NOT
the way to make friends...
>
> But yes, the basses and bellows articulation do figure in some of the
> regional styles. Most prominently in areas with strong local dance
> traditions.
I think use of the basses is more individual than regional - may even depend
a lot on whether or not the box on which they originally learned to play had
useful basses - most Hohners and many other old boxes don't !
The use of bellows articulation may be part of a regional style, but it could
as well simply be a feature of the instrument. It's just one of the things
you can do with a squeezebox - squeeze harder... or softer, whatever fits the
music.
Tony Ziselberger
Dear Tom,
I would agree that the basses are not a big part of Irish accordion playing,
however in the right hands they can add a great deal to the music. Conor
Keane and Jackie Daly both make very nice use of the basses on C#/D boxes,
and Billy McComiskey does a great job with the left hand on the B/C. I
think all of these players paid as much attention to the way Uileann pipers
use their regulators as they did to learning the boom-chuck accompaniment
style.
At 05:57 PM 11/14/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Really-From: "Thomas Smith" <tbs...@exis.net>
>
>>Quoting your own words "As far as the bass goes on
>>an Irish button box, most don't use them". Here you have one limitation.
>
>How do you come to the conclusion that this is a limitation? I am talking
>about when they are not needed or desired. Those that do use them have them
>tuned in one of the Irish setups (e.g., Paolo Soprani). I think you'll find
>that the basses are not a big part of Irish BB playing (but I could be
>wrong... maybe an Irish BB player can answer this).
>
>Tom Smith
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Tony Ziselberger to...@folk.org
North American Folk Music & Dance Alliance Phone(202) 835-3655
1001 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 501 Fax (202) 835-3656
Washington, DC 20036 http://www.folk.org
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> >Quoting your own words "As far as the bass goes on
> >an Irish button box, most don't use them". Here you have one limitation.
>
> How do you come to the conclusion that this is a limitation? I am talking
> about when they are not needed or desired. Those that do use them have them
> tuned in one of the Irish setups (e.g., Paolo Soprani). I think you'll find
> that the basses are not a big part of Irish BB playing (but I could be
> wrong... maybe an Irish BB player can answer this).
>
> Tom Smith
Uh, I think it is a limitation, because accordion is a polyphonic instrument
and not use one half of it due to diffficulty of fitting the basses to the
melody is... a limitation. When they use the basses, they use it only in
one-two keys, compare to PA or CBA, where you are free to play basses in
ANY key, thus, being free from BB limitation to the key.
Irish boxes don't have 7-ths, diminished, often even minor (they have to omit
the thirds). Again, this is from my limited experience with them, when I was
choosing MY instrunment.
Mitch Gordon
express annoyance with your tone of condescension towards Irish BB players (Tom
was the first). Clearly it's not an instrument you choose to play or a style
you are familiar with. So why are you spending so much electronic ink telling
those of us who do play Irish BB what we should be doing differently, and in
particular dissing our choice of instrument? People have answered your
questions at length in this thread about why we do what we do. We choose to
play Irish box, generally the way it is traditionally designed. You play other
types of accordions. Both choices are valid, so please don't disparage ours.
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Michael (Misha) Berenstein <mi...@pixar.com> writes:
Mitch Gordon
"in the right hands". The example that comes to my mind is James Keane's
incredible 10 or 15 minute solo set on the Gaelic Roots (Boston College
concert) cd set. He sounds like a 1-man Irish band.
In general, what I've noticed about Irish box players when playing with others
(especially in the more famous traditional bands such as Altan, Solas and
Dervish) is that they normally leave out the bass. They will pretty exclusively
play melody lead lines alone or in unison with other lead instruments, often
fiddle. However, in sessions and when not playing lead, I've seen Irish box
players use the bass for accompaniment, often leaving out the melody portion of
the instrument. That's a handy trick for sessions, considering that there may
be several lead players around and no guitar, and the bass (by itself) on an
Irish box is easy to play.
The times I've seen bass and lead played together are generally times that the
player is playing solo. It sounds great in that situation, but seems
excruciatingly hard to do. I've been warned as a beginner by someone on this
group to not attempt bass and treble together until I've played for about a
year, and it's advice I'm pretty much sticking to.
I found it interesting that John Williams gives a very complete treatment of
bass+treble play in his introductory video, and he sounds great doing it, but
when I was at a workshop he gave, he told us that his boxes are reconfigured so
he doesn't have to play like that. Apparently his 2-1/2 row Salterelles have
the 12 bass buttons reconfigured so that they play the 12 notes of the scale,
same regardless of push vs. draw. Seems funny to me that he would have mastered
the difficult bass system of the Irish box and then discarded it!
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Thomas Smith
I used this news group for the very first time a week (or so) ago in order
to ask for advice from the Irish BB players concerning the choice of the
tuning for my first Irish style BB -- and hence this thread started. I was
amazed at the amount of helpful advice that poured out of my screen every
night from beginners and seasoned Irish BB players alike. Then came your
posts (like reeds sadly out of tune)... haven't you noticed? You talk about
how much you have learned, but choose only to amplify what escapes you. You
consistently miss the forest for the trees and your last post only shows how
much you still have to learn my friend. I have no more time for your posts.
Sorry.
Tom
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Misha - At this point I'm going to become the second person in this thread to
> express annoyance with your tone of condescension towards Irish BB players (Tom
> was the first). Clearly it's not an instrument you choose to play or a style
> you are familiar with. So why are you spending so much electronic ink telling
> those of us who do play Irish BB what we should be doing differently, and in
> particular dissing our choice of instrument? People have answered your
> questions at length in this thread about why we do what we do. We choose to
> play Irish box, generally the way it is traditionally designed. You play other
> types of accordions. Both choices are valid, so please don't disparage ours.
>
> Mitch Gordon
> Oakland, CA
Hello.
You guys can be SO sensitive!
I think it is due to the general trend in Californian language. When people are
saying "Oh, I just loved it, it's so... mm, unusual" - it should be read "Oh, I've
never seeing anything worse and just hated it". Can't talk using normal words
anymore, always have to bring some excuses.
The fact is the fact and no matter how much you like the harmonica, you just can't
play counter melody on it. It's a limitation!
(NO, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS BAD INSTRUMENT, it only means it has (sorry) a
limitation, unique to this instrument).
Yes, I think Diatonic Button Accordion (note the capital letters, indicating my
reverence to this unique instrument) is very, VERY limited instrument. This fact
leads to certain benefits and problems. It is very easy instrument to pick up. I
started playing tunes within a week. And it is very difficult to get good at it,
because you have to know how to avoid and counteract limitation, so it becomes a
benefit (am I repeating some axioms?)
I'm very fond of G/C, D/G, C/F etc. accordions, although they are even more
limited than irish chromatics melody wise. Imagine, it doesn't prevent me from
playing it. ( I fully realize now that playing CBA is way, much, solidly,
incomparably easier than playing my DBB, but it completely lacks the liveliness
and natural breathing of the latter).
Can you prove that what I said in my post (read below) is untrue, and where it
states that I downgrade Irish accordion?
And why would I?
It's like some people (I bet good and decent, but a little too sensitive) on this
list jumped at putting together "concertina" and "improve".
P.S.
Boy, the words you used! "spending much electronic ink, dissing our choice,
disparage, condescension".
>
>
> Michael (Misha) Berenstein <mi...@pixar.com> writes:
>
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Michael,
>
> I used this news group for the very first time a week (or so) ago in order
> to ask for advice from the Irish BB players concerning the choice of the
> tuning for my first Irish style BB -- and hence this thread started. I was
> amazed at the amount of helpful advice that poured out of my screen every
> night from beginners and seasoned Irish BB players alike. Then came your
> posts (like reeds sadly out of tune)... haven't you noticed? You talk about
> how much you have learned, but choose only to amplify what escapes you. You
> consistently miss the forest for the trees and your last post only shows how
> much you still have to learn my friend. I have no more time for your posts.
> Sorry.
I checked the thread.
Can't see what in my posts are so off the topic.
My first post was "if you have an instrument in C#/D and no materials to study,
you can use B/C tapes to learn the instrument (not to pick up tunes. It's
easy.). So in a way I gave you an advice not to give up and use whatever is
available, and suggested that the key issue isn't of much importance in the
beginning. Some disagreed, but some agreed in a way.
And then, as it happens, the thread shifted a little. Don't see where I missed
forest for the reeds, sadly out of tune.
If you hope to sit in sessions within a year (without proper tutoring, no
tapes, no well laid out instruction) - you need a lot of talent (and I wish you
do)!
Anybody else thinks I'm off?
Tell me. Hm, sometimes it's hard to notice, but I have the feeling my posts
are misread by some. Are they misread, or are they miswritten?
Thomas Smith
Don't waste your time... Just sit back and watch as Misha digs the hole
deeper. I know the type.
Cheers,
Tom
Eric Root
>I would agree that the basses are not a big part of Irish accordion
playing, however in the right hands they can add a great deal to the
music. Conor Keane and Jackie Daly both make very nice use of the basses
on C#/D boxes, and Billy McComiskey does a great job with the left hand
on the B/C. I think all of these players paid as much attention to the
way Uileann pipers use their regulators as they did to learning the
boom-chuck accompaniment style.
Paddy O'Brien often makes good, regulator-like use of his basses also.
Mitch Gordon
I'll stand by what I said, and with Tom's comments as well. This is a
newsgroup, and there's no moderator, so it falls on all of us to maintain a
respectful tone towards others and to not "contribute" heavily on subjects on
which we're ignorant. I raised concerns with your posts on the first point, and
I think Tom did on both points. Your claim that we're a bunch of Calfornia
hypersensitives (actually I don't know whether Tom is a Californian, although I
am) attempts to dodge some valid criticism, which you might actually think
about instead of deflecting. Much of this long thread has been devoted to
explaining to you the reasons that things are the way they are in Irish box
playing, and why your various proposals and criticisms weren't especially
relevant. I think it was done with patience and consideration. But for two of
us, at this point, I think patience has run out, and we're getting blunt. If
that's being hypersensitive, so be it.
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Han Speek
> and not use one half of it due to diffficulty of fitting the basses to the
> melody is... a limitation. When they use the basses, they use it only in
> one-two keys, compare to PA or CBA, where you are free to play basses in
> ANY key, thus, being free from BB limitation to the key.
> Irish boxes don't have 7-ths, diminished, often even minor (they have to omit
> the thirds). Again, this is from my limited experience with them, when I was
> choosing MY instrunment.
>
Yes, the accordion is basically a polyphonic instrument. BUT... polyphony is
foreign to traditional Irish music, which for centuries has consisted of
melody-only, with the occasional (and sometimes unwelcome :-) addition of
some percussion instruments. The bagpipes added drones, and lateron the
Uilleann pipes added the regulators, which allowed to alter the pitch of the
drone notes, so that some (primitive) harmony could be achieved.
Polyphony was only introduced when the piano began being used on the early
(American) recordings of Irish music - and was initially pretty much frowned
upon. And they've never really managed to make it work.
So even though the accordion is capable of polyphony, it is not this aspect
of the instrument that is wanted for Irish music - it is mostly treated as
a melody instrument (or should be).
The basses can be used to provide tasteful harmonies in the hands of a good
player, but even they would probably choose to not use them at all when
playing with other musicians.
And the alternating bass, the well-known "Oom-pah" bass/chord that is so
common among melodeon player in general, has no place in Irish music at
all, even though some players do it out of habit.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Han Speek <h...@ice.el.utwente.nl> wrote:
[...]
>I think use of the basses is more individual than regional - may even depend
>a lot on whether or not the box on which they originally learned to play had
>useful basses - most Hohners and many other old boxes don't !
>The use of bellows articulation may be part of a regional style, but it could
>as well simply be a feature of the instrument. It's just one of the things
>you can do with a squeezebox - squeeze harder... or softer, whatever fits the
>music.
Just as a note, I play melodeon. So when I say these guys in the field
recordings are using bellows articulation, I mean they're using it to carry
the rhythm of the dance, even on long notes. Rather than ornamenting a long
note, some of them pump the bellows to get a pulsing sound. Somewhat similar
to what Sligo flute players do. I figure it'll be years and I'll be on my
second set of bellows before I can master that trick. ;} It's sure a lot
harder than learning to "huff" out a triplet on a flute Sligo-style.
Bases were sometimes used for rhythmic accompaniment, not harmony. Kinda the
way some old guys use the regulators on their pipes. HONK HONK HONK. This
is the rhythm. I will beat you upside the head with it until you get it.
And some restrained themselves to the occasional accent note to emphasize
a phrase.
If you want a really weird universe, check out the english melodeon players.
More of them seem to have gotten recorded before they quit playing. There's
a collection called "Pigeon on the Gate, Melodeon Players of East Anglia."
One of my friends described one of the common styles of playing the basses
as "like a cleg upside yer haid." Most of the guys playing that style played
for stepdancers.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Han Speek <h...@ice.el.utwente.nl> wrote:
>
>And the alternating bass, the well-known "Oom-pah" bass/chord that is so
>common among melodeon player in general, has no place in Irish music at
>all, even though some players do it out of habit.
Huh. I have at least one recording of Jackie Daily doing the Oom-pah
thing while playing polkas. A lot of set dance tunes _do_ work well
that way. And were often played like that in dance halls. That volume
thing again.
Han Speek
l...@crl3.crl.com (Lee Thompson-Herbert) writes:
> In article <80r7nl$9la$1...@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>,
> Han Speek <h...@ice.el.utwente.nl> wrote:
>>
>>And the alternating bass, the well-known "Oom-pah" bass/chord that is so
>>common among melodeon player in general, has no place in Irish music at
>>all, even though some players do it out of habit.
>
> Huh. I have at least one recording of Jackie Daily doing the Oom-pah
> thing while playing polkas. A lot of set dance tunes _do_ work well
> that way. And were often played like that in dance halls. That volume
> thing again.
>
this as well, is tap the "pah" bit with the chord, so the afterbeat. He
does not play the "Oom-" bit all the time - it would completely kill the
polka feel if he did (and turn it into a march, I guess).
He DOES selectively play a bass note ON the beat every now and then,
usually at the beginning of a phrase or at a point where an accompanist
would change to a different chord. But the rhythm is fixed on the
afterbeat, not the beat.
Thomas Smith
going to watch it again and keep an eye on her left hand. If my memory
serves me right she taps a bass key a few times in one tune on the 90 minute
video. I can definitely say that she never touches the bass keys for at
least 99% of the time.
Tom
Han Speek wrote in message <80r7nl$9la$1...@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>...
>And the alternating bass, the well-known "Oom-pah" bass/chord that is so
>common among melodeon player in general, has no place in Irish music at
>all, even though some players do it out of habit.
>
Orest T Lechnowsky
As a mere casual observer, I'd like to explore this aspect of
Irish music being mainly monophonic a little more. I would venture to
guess that the harp, that most Irish of instruments, has always been
polyphonic. Do traditional Irish fiddlers double stop? I'm not sure how
long of a history the hammered dulcimer has had in Ireland, but it is
often played polyphonically.
Now, on the other hand, it only makes sense that in a band
situation, the accompaniment is usually left to instruments other than
the accordion, because playing basses greatly complicates the playing of
the melody. So if it can be done better by someone else, why not? In
solo play, I would guess that some use the basses and others do not,
depending on skill level and taste (and tradition?). There is no doubt
that even simple basses can add something in jigs and polkas, especially
for dances.
Our local Irish step dance group relies on an elderly Irish
immigrant BB player for their dance music. He accompanies his melody
line with a rhythmic, drone like bass. A single, unvarying note which he
presses in time with the music. I can't say that it always sounds
harmonically right, but it certainly gives the dancers an unfailing beat
to dance to. Interesting thing is that he does the same thing when he
does a solo instrumental spot (when the dancers are resting). Is it just
habit, or is that part of the tradition he learned in? Maybe one of
these days I'll run into him after a show and ask him. 'Til then, I'll
wonder.
Orest
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Mitch Gordon
criticisms, just as it's worthwhile hearing his responses to ours. And for
others on the group to give the three of us a reality check, as Misha has
asked. I just hope we can keep the tone respectful, as befits a discussion
between adults, and not get so busy beating up on each other that we forget
that we're only talking about accordions and the music we like to play, not
prison reform, environmental pollution and the future of the Balkans.
Macromed5
> I've been warned as a beginner by someone on this group to
> not attempt bass and treble together until I've played for
> about a year, and it's advice I'm pretty much sticking to.
Hmm, you might wish to at least try it, though. There's a very different
feeling when the rhythm drives the tune... it gets locked in, the spine gets
the beat, the drive becomes the most important thing. You become a servant of
the tune.
It's possible to get this with just melody, too, but there's also the risk of
playing the melody arhythmically. Singing a tune against the bass is another
way to wire it in. The release of the notes is as important as hitting them,
for a crisp beat. (One check is whether you can't *not* tap your foot during
it... whether you can mercilessly entice the audience in to the beat.)
Nothing firm here... just a couple of different ways of looking at it. For
some, learning just the right hand can work. It might be worthwhile to spend
some time with both, though. Mileage varies.
Regards,
John Dowdell
Mitch Gordon
accordion or melodeon experience, and it's still a bit crazy. I think I'm past
the point now of having to think "push, draw, draw, push" on individual notes,
but I am still going through an incredible amount of "hunt and peck" trying to
find the notes of a tune for the first time. On the success side, however, I
have worked up two tunes on the right hand, a jig and a polka, and I can play
them almost up to speed with a bearable number of mistakes. Not bad for a
beginner, I like to think, and it also gives me some early rewards to encourage
me to keep going. And when friends want to hear what the box sounds like, I
have something I can play. I think I'll even break it out soon for my two tunes
in a tolerant, low-end session, because folks tend to be curious.
I do experiment with simulaneous bass and right hand a little, but just for the
sound and to get a taste of the potential for self-accompanied solo play.
Rather than hold me to the rhythm, though, it slows me down even further. The
right hand alone is still complex for me, but I'm gradually getting on top of
that. I recognize the importance of playing to the beat, but I think the bass
is a hinderance for that purpose right now. The push-draw on the bass is out of
sync with the push-draw on the melody, and has to be omitted for certain notes,
or I have to switch between the push and draw versions of the same chord. For
now, I'd rather just tap my foot. My plan is to develop right hand and left
hand separately for awhile, other than the occasional experiment, and start
integrating them later when I'm more proficient. Talk about patting your head
and rubbing your belly at the same time!
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Orest T Lechnowsky <or...@juno.com> wrote:
[...]
> Our local Irish step dance group relies on an elderly Irish
>immigrant BB player for their dance music. He accompanies his melody
>line with a rhythmic, drone like bass. A single, unvarying note which he
>presses in time with the music. I can't say that it always sounds
>harmonically right, but it certainly gives the dancers an unfailing beat
>to dance to. Interesting thing is that he does the same thing when he
>does a solo instrumental spot (when the dancers are resting). Is it just
>habit, or is that part of the tradition he learned in? Maybe one of
>these days I'll run into him after a show and ask him. 'Til then, I'll
>wonder.
Cool. So there _are_ still a few box players who play that style, then.
I've run across the style in field recordings, but no actual players.
The HONK HONK HONK style of bass playing annoys a lot of the more "sensitive"
people. But it's like I was saying in one of my other posts, a lot of the
old guys used the basses for rhythmic accompaniment only.
As for double stops, try and find the CD "Milestone at the Garden." There's
a track of a fiddler playing "Ace of Piping" and "King of the Faeries." What
he uses as double stops sounds almost like a mistake to ears trained by
western art music harmonic conventions. I had to listen to the track three
times before I understood what he was doing. I grew up around pipers, so
I was already used to drone notes that didn't "fit" if you follow classical
rules. Think of these tunes as purely modal, and you'll begin to understand
why a lot of attempts at harmonization don't work very well for irish music.
Or why they don't end up sounding very irish, even when they sort of work.
NEB
> From: Dennis A. Steckley <st...@megsinet.net>
> Gee, guys, get a PA and you can play any note in any key at any time!
Makes
Yeah. Buy a PA and never change bellows direction again... ;-)
Neil
P.S. I took this post as a joke, and replied in kind, but anyone thinking
Dennis (or I) were serious should go back to the many posts discussing this
issue of PA versus BB articulation (a month or so back).
NEB
As someone who went through this very same process a few years back, and as
a musician who knows what he's doing with keys, etc., can I comment on all
this? [Pity I missed the beginning of the thread - pressure of work, a new
album to record, etc.]
So, in no particular order:
1. B/C and C#/D are both fully chromatic - YES, in that they have all the
12 semitones in Western music on them.
2. The traditional keys of Irish tunes (Drowsy Maggie Em, Maid behind the
bar D, etc.) means that it does make a difference which box you choose. The
possible ornaments are different.
3. Players like Sharon Shannon use different boxes to play in a more
extended range of keys. She plays stuff in Gm, F, D, G, Am, Em, Bm, A, E.
But this is generally made possible by having a B/C and a C#/D.
Example 1: If you learn a tune in Am on B/C box and then just play that
fingering on C#/D then the tune comes out in Bm.
Example 2: If you learn a tune in G on a B/C and then play it on C#/D it
comes out in A.
Example 3: If you learn a tune in G on a C#/D and play it on a B/C then it
comes out in F.
The critical thing here is "how many keys do I THINK I'm playing in, when
I'm learning tunes?" As a participant in a traditional session scene which
uses the 'normal' keys of D, G, Am, Em, etc. you will learn the fingerings
for those keys on whatever box you favour. If you pick up a different box,
hey presto you're in an 'unusual' key. Good for the variety on an album,
bad for playing in sessions.
4. Of course you can play all keys on one box. For various personal reasons
I prefer C#/D, but for me keys like C and F are difficult. On the other
hand, A is easy- easier than it would be on a B/C (where it would be mostly
on the pull).
If you are prepared to work hard you might end up being able to play in all
keys on the one box. I'm getting on well with Dm at the moment; C is hard
but I'm getting there. E is hard for me (coming from melodeon style) but I
do quite a few tunes in E now (remember this is the one that's the same
fingering as D on a B/C box) so here I can get the 'B/C type ornamentation'
in it.
5. I don't agree that you "always be holding the wrong box in a session".
Unless you're comfortable in a large variety of keys you are likely to take
one box and play everything on that. The only exception is where someone
starts a tune in a non-standard key. You might think: "ah, if only I had a
B/C I could join in with this". A friend of mine plays the hornpipe 'The
Golden Eagle' in F (standard is G). I know it in G, and could join him if I
had a B/C box to hand, as the fingering I know would be correct.
6. I've got the Peter Browne video, and can say that it does NOT go into
the differences between B/C and C#/D techniques. He merely states that all
the stuff he does on B/C "will work on a C#/D". I bought it because it
mentioned C#/D on the sleeve, but from that point of view was disappointed.
If you accept that you can't play along in the same key, it's pretty good,
and he's a brilliant jazzy player who uses a lot of syncopation (which I
love). I'm a good enough musician to get what I can out of it without the
key difference bothering me, but anyone starting out from scratch on a C#/D
would get a shock buying this video.
7. YES, these instruments are limited in what they can do in the bass. You
can do accompaniments in a few keys, but with just 8 buttons there's not
much you can do. But the attraction for me is that this is the smallest
melodically chromatic button accordion available. If you were to add more
bass capability it would make the thing bigger and more unwieldy - which
for me would be a drawback. Besides the bellows in-outs that are necessary
in most keys for this system would become more of a problem.
8. A lot of well-known players do not use the bass very much (cf Tom's post
re. "Tribute to Sharon Shannon" video - I haven't seen it, but have seen
her live). It is very hard to do very much that is not hampered by the
strangeness of the system. The "oom/pah, but missing out the 'oom' most of
the time" mentioned by Han is the best solution that players generally
find. I can't remember his name, but a couple of years back at Sidmouth I
saw a very 'traditional' player who had been booked by the festival, with a
very straightforward wet-tuned B/C style. He performed with a banjo player
and played oom-pah almost all the time on the basses- although for 99% of
the time he was _extremely_ good, what irked me though was the occasional
chord of A major that crept out in the bass in a tune in G (and no, it
wasn't one of those sections where the tune modulated to D). It was just
the peculiarity of the system that made it happen. I could NOT put up with
that- and sometimes there is no way round it; so I reserve basses mostly
for my D/G playing, and leave them out when playing Irish style. What was
said about the sheer 'loudness' of box playing is probably a very large
part of the reason for this, though.
9. Going back to the melody side, having learned a lot about it all over
the last few years, I feel that the choice of B/C or C#/D was actually less
critical for me than I felt at the time. As someone else said, the learning
curve is probably much the same for either; some things are easier on one
system, some on the other...
10. As I now have two C#/D boxes, I'm actually considering buying a set of
B/C treble reeds for my Saltarelle Irish Bouebe (I'll forget the basses-
see above). Can't afford _another_ box, and couldn't bear to sell one...
As Chris Moran said: "It is a matter of style and preference, not 'better'
and 'best'."
Have fun, and best of luck. Enjoy your music!
Neil
(D/G and C#/D player)
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Mitch,
>
> Don't waste your time... Just sit back and watch as Misha digs the hole
> deeper. I know the type.
>
> Cheers,
> Tom
Now that is pure personal attack brought on a public forum. As such is
intolerant. Should have being sent as a private message from Thomas Smith
to Mitch.
Orest T Lechnowsky
Thanks Neil,
To me, this seems a very well written, informative and unbiased
treatise on Irish BB. If this doesn't clear up the debate.........well,
I don't know.
Orest
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Orest T Lechnowsky
On 16 Nov 1999 09:30:09 -0800 gat...@d-and-d.com writes:
>Really-From: l...@crl3.crl.com (Lee Thompson-Herbert)
>
>Cool. So there _are_ still a few box players who play that style,
>then. I've run across the style in field recordings, but no actual
players.
>The HONK HONK HONK style of bass playing annoys a lot of the more
>"sensitive" people.
>As for double stops, try and find the CD "Milestone at the Garden."
>There's
>a track of a fiddler playing "Ace of Piping" and "King of the
>Faeries." What
>he uses as double stops sounds almost like a mistake to ears trained
>by
>western art music harmonic conventions. I had to listen to the track
>three
>times before I understood what he was doing. I grew up around pipers,
>so
>I was already used to drone notes that didn't "fit" if you follow
>classical
>rules. Think of these tunes as purely modal, and you'll begin to
>understand
>why a lot of attempts at harmonization don't work very well for irish
>music.
>Or why they don't end up sounding very irish, even when they sort of
>work.
Believe me, I am well familiar with field recordings of folk
musicians. There is an art to listening to them without the encumberance
of "how it should be played". Most people (musicians included) can't
properly listen to a real field recording without having their
sensibilities seriously offended.
I was recently paid a compliment (IMHO) by Victor Mishalow, a
respected ethnomusicologist and musician and I pass it on to you Lee,
"you are one of the cognoscenti, one of the initiated few, if you are
ever in ___(Omaha)___, stop by and we'll drink some (real) beer and
listen to some field recordings". Parentheses are mine:^)
Orest
Mitch Gordon
>Now that is pure personal attack brought on a public forum. As such is
>intolerant. Should have being sent as a private message from Thomas Smith
>to Mitch.
I agree.
Mitch.
Dennis A. Steckley
definitely a joke--glad you caught it, and hope everybody else did too!
That's why I winked:
;>)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: NEB <N...@yale.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: B/C or C#/D for first Irish BB?
> > From: Dennis A. Steckley <st...@megsinet.net>
> > Gee, guys, get a PA and you can play any note in any key at any time!
> Makes
> > life much simpler! ;>)
>
> Yeah. Buy a PA and never change bellows direction again... ;-)
>
> Neil
>
> P.S. I took this post as a joke, and replied in kind, but anyone thinking
> Dennis (or I) were serious should go back to the many posts discussing
this
> issue of PA versus BB articulation (a month or so back).
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
> some of them pump the bellows to get a pulsing sound.
Sounds like bellows shake, or something like it...?
I find that being nervous actually helps my sound on concertina, for
that reason -- it's easier to get vibration into the hands if they're
already inclined to jitter.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
November 13th at the Walkabout Clearwater Coffeehouse:
Christopher Shaw and Bridget Ball
http://www.lovesong.com/walkabout/
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
key to the current disagreement:
Some of the best art -- in all forms of art! -- arises directly from
accepting a set of "limitations" and learning how to turn them into a
style. Or into advantages. I latched onto Anglo concertina precisely
because its "limitation" of being focused on specific keys and having to
reverse bellows frequently opened up insights and opportunities that I
hadn't previously explored, and because its "limited range" gave it
better portabilty than my old PA.
Similarly, some technological advances come from specializing them for a
particular task, "limiting" them in some ways in exchange for improving
them in others. Screwdrivers make lousy hammers, and vice versa, though
you can use either to accomplish the larger task of making a bookcase.
ANY instrument is limited -- keyboard instruments have trouble playing
any note not assigned directly to a key, most instruments can't sustain
a continuous note for more than a limited amount of time, and so on. But
those limitations are a large part of what defines the characteristic
sound of the instrument -- as folks who've worked with synths know, even
the best attempts to mimic other instruments will sound "wrong" unless
the performer is able and willing to respect the playing style of those
instruments.
For that matter, bellows-driven free-reed instruments don't work worth a
darn in vacuum. The question is whether that's an issue that matters,
given what you want to do with the instrument... or, if it does matter,
whether you want to view it as a challenge.
Mitch Gordon
I'll take a crack at trying to resolve the personal fighting that's taken place
as a part of this thread, in the interest of peace on the group and getting
people back on friendly terms. Tom Smith and I raised some criticisms about
your postings on the thread, and you replied with a combination of rebuttal and
raising some questions about our criticisms. I'll try to respond to the
questions you raised. This will be my last posting on this argument. I hope
you'll take it in the spirit in which it is intended, and more, that you'll
give some thought to what I'm saying and perhaps meet us in the middle.
As said in earlier posts, Tom and I were unhappy with 1) your excessive
mistaken verbiage on a subject you didn't understand, and 2) what we perceived
to be your disparaging attitude towards Irish button box (the instrument we
play).
I'll take the latter point first, because I'll acknowledge that
misunderstanding has been part of the problem there. What happened is that in
three separate postings of yours, you were pushing the idea that chromatic
button accordion makes more sense to play than diatonic because it resolves the
problem of being able to play in a variety of keys. I can see where you came to
that conclusion for yourself from your own experiences; apparently you're a CBA
player who purchased a G/C box at some point and experienced frustrations with
it. Where you managed to get under our skins was by repeating this assertion on
three different occasions, in the context of a thread that was intended for
Irish box players trying to explore the advantages and disadvantages of
specific Irish boxes. To have suggested CBA as an alternative once was
conceivably a reasonable thing. By the third time, it was starting to sound
like you disapproved of our chosen instrument and thought we were stupid to not
be playing yours instead.
Did you actually say that anyone was stupid or the instrument was awful? No.
But you did use several expressions that seemed to imply disapproval, like
"these little boxes ARE musically limited" and "compare to PA or CBA, where you
are free to play basses in ANY key." While I get the impression that you didn't
mean these as putdowns, if you have any sensitivity at all to how people hear
things, you have to recognize that you were implying a whole lot of negative
stuff about Irish box, intentionally or unintentionally. And the repetition
really sealed it. Once, and everyone would have shrugged their shoulders. By
the second time, Tom got on you about it. By the third time, I did.
There's a whole lot of accordion and concertina varieties out there in the
world, and a sampling of the players of all of these cohabit this little
newsgroup. Please share what you know about yours, but be respectful of
everyone else's. I and others went into great detail explaining to you the
reasons that the box we play is appropriate to the music we do (remember my
"tradition" post?). Try to accept that the CBA, however much you like it in the
context of the music you play, is probably not the answer to the dreams and
desires of people who play Irish box. And that those of us who get annoyed with
your insistence on this point are not being overly sensitive, as you claim.
It's more like you're being insensitive.
On the matter of excessive verbiage on an unfamiliar topic (my point #1 in my
second paragraph)...I show 40 postings to this thread so far, 10 of them yours.
For someone with a fair amount of knowledge about Irish box, to post that many
times to a thread about Irish box makes perfect sense. For someone who doesn't
play Irish box at all, that's excessive. (No, experimenting with a G/C using
Malley's book for English music has nothing to do with Irish box). And each of
your posts resulted in somebody trying to explain to you at length what was
really going on, and then oftentimes you'd come up with something just as off
the mark immediately afterwards. It was this that caused Tom to categorize your
posts as "reeds sadly out of tune."
For example, on the matter of using B/C videos to learn C#/D, it doesn't work.
I'm still not sure that you understand that. It was after responses to about 5
of your posts that we were able to make clear to you that the key an Irish tune
is played in is a given, and for that reason that the same tune is played
completely differently on different boxes. Why did you (and do you still) feel
such a need to insist on the validity of your idea?
Let me give you a different perspective on this. I know essentially nothing
about CBA's - what styles of music they're played in, how they're played, how
they're constructed. I think I've seen a CBA once or twice at most. There's
currently a thread on the group comparing B system and C system CBA's. Shall I
start posting to that thread? Heck, a CBA's got buttons, just like my Irish
box...I'd have loads of useful insights to share, right? Wrong.
Bottom line, there's a proverb that says, "it's better to hide your ignorance
and let people wonder, rather than to voice it and erase all doubt." I've seen
postings of yours on other subjects in which you had valid comments to share
from personal experience, such as your comparisons of Russia and China, having
lived in the former. By all means, if you know something, share it. That's what
these thousands of silly Internet newsgroups are for. But if you don't know
anything about the subject, be quiet and learn. That's what I try to do, and
that's the advice I give you here as well. But it's your life.
In the spirit of peace and compromise,
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Macromed5
melodeon experience, and it's still a bit crazy. I think I'm past the point now
of having to think "push, draw, draw, push" on individual notes, but I am still
going through an incredible amount of "hunt and peck" trying to find the notes
of a tune for the first time."
Sounds normal. ;-) Regular mindful repetition is how other folks have made
the sounds you want to make.
"On the success side, however, I have worked up two tunes on the right hand, a
jig and a polka, and I can play them almost up to speed with a bearable number
of mistakes."
Cool! 8)
Regards,
John Dowdell
Thomas Smith
little lamb" comment and belittles Irish BB players with his "limited"
comment and then I am called an "overly sensitive Californian" by him for
responding (by the way I am on the East coast and if that post was not
insulting, to people from California at least, I don't know what would be).
I dropped this thing days ago and suggested to Mitch he do the same (advice
obviously ignored). Now Misha has become over sensitive by his own standards
and Mitch agrees with him. This is almost funny, but it is too much.
Thanks everyone who helped me with my choice of button box, especially Chris
and Neil (NEB). Neil, your email broke everything down in great detail and
shed a lot of light on the situation. I hope your album work is successful,
I know it can be draining... I've been there on other instruments. Chris
your advice was rich and your web site is a site for sore eyes, we will do
business soon.
Mitch Gordon wrote in message
<19991116160606...@ngol01.aol.com>...
Mitch Gordon
very friendly fashion went through various of the points that have been made
back and forth. I'm happy now. I think the infighting is over, and as a
sensitive, new age, I'm-ok-you're-ok Californian ;-) that pleases me. My thanks
for the indulgence of the group. Aside from the bit of personal crud that went
on in the middle, now resolved, I think this has been a great thread and very
informative.
I'm all talked out. Maybe I'll go play some box!
Mitch Gordon
Oakland, CA
Han Speek
In article <3831...@grouper.exis.net>,
"Thomas Smith" <tbs...@exis.net> writes:
> I have the tape "Tribute to Sharon Shannon" and tonight after work I am
> going to watch it again and keep an eye on her left hand. If my memory
> serves me right she taps a bass key a few times in one tune on the 90 minute
> video. I can definitely say that she never touches the bass keys for at
> least 99% of the time.
>
> Tom
>
Hi Tom,
The video, you mean ? I have that - and I don't think she ever plays alone
on it (I'd have to check - haven't watched it for quite a while). So she
probably isn't.
But I have a few live recordings from her (I've met her a few times, and
even did a workshop with her once), and she definitely uses it there.
If you see her oldest Tommy, the C#/D one (she has a B/C Tommy now as well,
though for many years she used a Lilly as her main B/C box), you'll notice
that the chord button for the D is badly worn - that's the one she uses most
of the time.
Kamphorst
Thank you for posting this message.
I have occasionally seen into other newsgroups but no one can compare to ours on
respect and behaviour - and the tender corrections that sometimes are used when
someone thinks them necessary.
IMHO Misha means it well although he teases us with his strong opinions. It is a
way to get information on subjects you want to know more off.
Gert-Jan Kamphorst.
Mitch Gordon wrote in message <19991116201419...@ngol06.aol.com>...
Kamphorst
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam wrote in message <38321293...@ibm.net>...
|Just a general observation, since there seems to be one word that's the
|key to the current disagreement:
|For that matter, bellows-driven free-reed instruments don't work worth a
|darn in vacuum. The question is whether that's an issue that matters,
|given what you want to do with the instrument... or, if it does matter,
|whether you want to view it as a challenge.
Name me one instrument that will work in vacuum ;>))
Gert-Jan Kamphorst
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
> Name me one instrument that will work in vacuum ;>))
Many will _work_, though you may not be able to hear them unless you're
in contact with them or attach a pickup...
TSHACK
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam <kes...@ibm.net> wrote in message
news:38338069...@ibm.net...
> Kamphorst wrote:
> > Name me one instrument that will work in vacuum ;>))
>
A vacuum gauge. ;-)
mar...@eosinc.com
> Anybody else thinks I'm off?
> Tell me. Hm, sometimes it's hard to notice, but I have the feeling my posts
> are misread by some. Are they misread, or are they miswritten?
Michael,
Since you asked, I also think you're off. The topic of C#/d and B/C
are very specialized subjects. Unless you have had substantial exper-
ience with these boxes and the music played, it is difficult to comment
intelligently, on the topics discussed. I am glad topics such as set-up
were not mentioned as then it would really be confusing to you. The
posters you have been commenting on, have been polite, informative, and
courteous to the extreme. I personally appreciate their knowledgable
comments and the tone of the group prior to this type of discussion.
Chip
DoN. Nichols
>
>Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam wrote in message <38321293...@ibm.net>...
>|Just a general observation, since there seems to be one word that's the
>|key to the current disagreement:
>[..........]
>
>|For that matter, bellows-driven free-reed instruments don't work worth a
>|darn in vacuum. The question is whether that's an issue that matters,
>|given what you want to do with the instrument... or, if it does matter,
>|whether you want to view it as a challenge.
>
You *had* to ask! :-)
Hmm ... electric guitar? (Actually should have a bit more
sustain than in atmosphere, and otherwise should be pretty much the same
behavior. I'm presuming that you are in a pressure suit, and the output
can be amplified and fed to the headphones in the suit's helmet. Your
major problem will be that you have the choice of very awkward gloves
and protected from the vacuum, or very thin gloves which will probably
still inhibit your playing, and risk damage to the hands.
A theremin should work just as well with gloved hands. You'll
still need the headphones in the helmet to hear it, of course.
A piano should work, with a contact mic on the soundboard.
(Seriously changing the apparent sound, of course.)
Electronic keyboards could work -- as long as the switches are
actually hall-effect sensors. Otherwise, you risk vacuum-welding the
contacts, resulting in somewhat unplanned drones.
Obviously, all of the bellows-driven free-reed instruments are
out, but plucked reeds (such as in a music box, or a kalimba (thumb
piano) should work.
All stringed instruments should work, with a change in the
sound, and some form of contact micing needed.
All wind instruments are out, including the somewhat less
portable ones such as the pipe organ.
Violin/fiddle and other bowed instruments (including wheel-bowed
ones, such as the original hurdy-gurdy should work -- again with a
significant change in sound quality.
Xylophone should work, but the distinguishing characteristics of
a vibrophone would be lost. The major problem here is picking up the
sound. If the bars are steel, a magnetic proximity pickup could be
used. If aluminum, I doubt that any practical pickup format is
available. If the vacuum also implies weightlessness, the xylophone
will have other problems.
Bells could work with a contact pickup, but the timbre will
probably be seriously changed.
I've probably forgotten many other families of instruments.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
My Concertina web page: | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> >
> >Name me one instrument that will work in vacuum ;>))
>
> You *had* to ask! :-)
>
> Hmm ... electric guitar? (Actually should have a bit more
> sustain than in atmosphere, and otherwise should be pretty much the same
> behavior. I'm presuming that you are in a pressure suit, and the output
> can be amplified and fed to the headphones in the suit's helmet.
I thought electric guitar's pickup works throught air vibrations, emitten by
strings. So in vacuum it wan't work.
>
>
> A theremin should work just as well with gloved hands. You'll
> still need the headphones in the helmet to hear it, of course.
Theremin wouldn't work as well, unless you are using those new age "theremins",
which are in reality just synthesizers.
A real theremin is an acoustic instrument with it's own characteristic sound, using
vacuum (!) tubes technology (whatever this means)
>
>
> Obviously, all of the bellows-driven free-reed instruments are
> out, but plucked reeds (such as in a music box, or a kalimba (thumb
> piano) should work.
But they might present us with a great scientific demonstration:
With vacuum outside and inside, we can break the rule and stretch/squeeze the
bellows WITHOUT any button depressed.
>
ArrahCee
I play both B/C -and- C#/D, I'll have a go at this.
You folks who are comparing G/C to C/F and relating it to
this discussion mean well, but you really don't understand.
To correct a few things:
1. G is very easy on B/C.
2. You -can't- "learn the instrument" (on C#/D) using tapes
for the B/C and just translate.
3.. Yep, it -does- make a big difference.
I played B/C for 2 1/2 years before those Jackie Daly tunes
finally got the best of me, so about a year ago I bit the bullet and
bought a C#/D. Observations:
Advantages of B/C-
1. Easy keys- G, Am, Dmix, Em (less physical work than C#/D)
(Hard keys- Bm, A [it's mostly on the draw], Gm).
2. Easier to play faster-- less bellows work.
3. Easier to slide between notes since more notes are on
outside rows-- slides are diagonal.
4. Stock B/C boxes have the low G- not all C#/D's have this.
Advantages of C#/D-
1. Easy keys- D, Amix, A, Bm. G isn't -hard-, but you have
to cross rows in the middle of the scale as opposed to the
end. (C nat v.s. F#).
2. More notes on one row in the common Irish keys.
3. F# rolls are a snap.
4. Don't have to pull for the high A.
So-- which is better, easier?
I don't know. My original plan when buying the C#/D was to change
totally over to that system. However, I'm already 3 years into B/C
and am rethinking the idea of relearning 3 years' worth of tunes.
I do think I'd have progressed faster if I'd started on C#/D-- BUT no
learning materials were available for C#/D. I still don't know of any
videos (the Peter Browne video is taught on B/C and is mostly showing
you how to do "tricks"). If you have a teacher OR think you can teach
yourself using the videos (John Williams' is good) for the rolls, etc., the
C#/D would be a good choice-- but it is more physical than B/C and
requires more planning of fingering since you have to reposition your hand
more often due to more notes being on one row. I chose B/C in the
beginning because there was more material available for that system.
If you look at all the US summer schools, you won't find any C#/D
teachers at Augusta, Swannanoa, or Gaelic Roots next year. So the
scales are tipped greatly in favor of B/C as far as what's available out
there for instructional material.
Either system can be used to make great music-- there is no
Magic Bullet. Do you already play an instrument and have lots
of tunes already in your head? If so, and if you're willing to hunt and
peck in the beginning, then you may be able to teach yourself C#/D
very well, without all the videos, etc. I have a good friend in Texas
who's done just that. BUT-- he was already an accomplished banjo and
concertina player. You can then try one of the workshops with a pro
player-- be advised, I was determined to tough out a Paddy O'Brien
workshop on C#/D this summer, and wimped out back to to B/C
after the 2nd day.
Good luck,
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
Tom
By chance was the workshop that you attended "Irish Week by the Sea" in Nova
Scotia back in August. I heard that Paddy was the BB instructor up there. My
wife and I are hoping to attend next year. By the way, your B/C C#/D
comparison was very helpful.
Tom
ArrahCee wrote in message <19991120154124...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
ArrahCee
No, I was at Swannanoa this year. How
far are you from Baltimore? If you can
manage to get some lessons from
Billy McComiskey on B/C you'll be
MILES ahead of those of us who slogged
along on our own. I think he'll be teaching
at Augusta again next year.
Paddy concentrates on melody and
variation of the tunes, as opposed to
technique.
All the best,
Rick
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
Tom
I'm about five hours away from Baltimore. A tad too far I guess.
I just took a luck at the Augusta web pages. Definitely food for thought.
My wife likes the ocean (she's from Key West)... how she correlates the
ocean down in the Keys and and the ocean off Nova Scotia I don't know. Just
a love of the sea I guess.
I see that this year the two events were back to back, assuming the same
next year I guess one could do both if they have the time (and money).
Tom Smith
DoN. Nichols
Michael (Misha) Berenstein <mi...@pixar.com> wrote:
>"DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Name me one instrument that will work in vacuum ;>))
>>
>> You *had* to ask! :-)
>>
>> Hmm ... electric guitar? (Actually should have a bit more
>> sustain than in atmosphere, and otherwise should be pretty much the same
>> behavior. I'm presuming that you are in a pressure suit, and the output
>> can be amplified and fed to the headphones in the suit's helmet.
>
>I thought electric guitar's pickup works throught air vibrations, emitten by
>strings. So in vacuum it wan't work.
Nope! Standard electric guitars are steel stringed instruments,
and there is a small permanent magnet to set up a field in the nearby
string, and a coil to sense the changes in that field. Typical
instruments will have a pickup for each string, and some have an
adjustable pole piece to allow fine-tuning the sensitivity for each
string. The presence of the pickup coil is proven by the name of
certain designs as "hum-bucking" -- a design intended to be less
sensitive to external AC magnetic fields.
Now -- an electrified *acoustic* guitar may have nylon or gut
strings, and this would not work with the magnetic pickup -- but a
contact microphone would pick up the vibration of the sound board. The
sound of the instrument would be seriously different, without the
acoustic resonance of the body, but it would still be playable.
>>
>>
>> A theremin should work just as well with gloved hands. You'll
>> still need the headphones in the helmet to hear it, of course.
>
>Theremin wouldn't work as well, unless you are using those new age "theremins",
>which are in reality just synthesizers.
>A real theremin is an acoustic instrument with it's own characteristic sound, using
>vacuum (!) tubes technology (whatever this means)
The vacuum tubes (which the British would call "valves") are not
necessary. It can be done just as well with FETs (Field Effect
Transistors) replacing the vacuum tubes -- with some changes in the
circuitry to accommodate the differing characteristics of the gain
elements. It simply needs some gain elements with very high imput
impedances -- vacuum tubes and FETs both offer that characteristic.
Normal transistors, BJTs (Bipolar Junction Transistors) do not.
The theremin is in reality two capacitance sensors (the 'T' and
'V' antennas), which produce voltages to change the pitch and volume of
the produced note. You change each by proximity of your hands to the
antennas.
The sound of a typical one might be limited by poor-quality
internal speakers, but it is as likely to be connected to a good quality
amplifier and set of speakers for a performance.
The note is pretty much a pure sine wave, unlike any acoustic
instrument, which introduces distortions from many sources which give
each instrument its characteristic sound.
You could not *play* a theremin without some provisions to allow
you to hear it, since you need to hear it to determine the pitch and
volume. There are no frets or buttons to automatically give you the
right pitch.
>> Obviously, all of the bellows-driven free-reed instruments are
>> out, but plucked reeds (such as in a music box, or a kalimba (thumb
>> piano) should work.
>
>But they might present us with a great scientific demonstration:
>With vacuum outside and inside, we can break the rule and stretch/squeeze the
>bellows WITHOUT any button depressed.
Indeed we can. I don't think that I would want to expose a good
concertina to vacuum for long, because it would dry out and probably
break the glue joints.
Ventura
Having read many of the posts comparing the
different types of buttonboxes, I have noticed
the frequent (feeling of) lament that
the average person is limeted by
so many factors... you must choose one
(before you really know why, or what you really
want to play) because you can't own a bunch of them
etc. etc.
It just seems to me that, for student purposes,
this is truly an ideal situation for an electronic
solution. Imagine a button box body,
completely software driven. It could emulate any tuning
and any button box configuration, and use the
sound card in your computer for "reeds"
No, you'd never replace an acoustic with one, but
a simple, affordable device like this could
do wonders to open up the possibilities
for a novice.
Just a thought
Ciao Ventura
> Mitch Gordon wrote:
>
> .............This is a
> newsgroup........ so it falls on all of us to maintain a
> respectful tone .....and to not "contribute" heavily on subjects on
> which we're ignorant.
NEB
Absolutely.
The problem (as usual with computers) is that it is less convenient to be
tied to a piece of (not-very-portable) equipment with a lead.
You'd also want to take it to other players to compare notes.
Will your teacher, if you have one, come to you?
Pub sessions would have to take place in an internet cafe! (Is the Guinness
any good in those places?!?)
Actually, I'd love to have a 2-row MIDI BB. How cheap do they come?
But they'll never be very popular for the abovementioned portability
problem. Computers haven't put books, newspapers, or TV manufacturers out
of business yet and it doesn't look as if they're going to, either.
Neil
----------
> From: gat...@d-and-d.com
> To: squee...@hockeytape.com
> Subject: SML: Re: B/C or C#/D
> Date: 22 November 1999 07:02
>
> Really-From: Ventura <dr...@maxinter.net>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Processed through gateway at d-and-d.com to squeezebox
> mailing list from newsgroup rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> It just seems to me that, for student purposes,
> this is truly an ideal situation for an electronic
> solution. Imagine a button box body,
> completely software driven. It could emulate any tuning
> and any button box configuration, and use the
> sound card in your computer for "reeds"
One of the possibile features if/when I ever get around to actually
assembling my midi'tina design would be the possibility of not just
reprogramming key locations, but having interchangable keyboard layouts.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Opinions expressed are solely those of the author
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Misha, I'd love to know what acoustic instrument you _were_ thinking of.
I don't know of anything non-electronic which operates on the
waving-your-hands-in-the-air principle, but I suppose some sort of
mechanical resonance mechanism is vaguely possible...
Han Speek
"Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)" <kes...@alum.mit.edu> writes:
> Ventura wrote:
>> It just seems to me that, for student purposes,
>> this is truly an ideal situation for an electronic
>> solution. Imagine a button box body,
>> completely software driven. It could emulate any tuning
>> and any button box configuration, and use the
>> sound card in your computer for "reeds"
>
The instrument described above DOES ALREADY EXISTS ! It is called the
"Arietta" (no, not the Hohner one), and is basically a 3-row (12-11-10),
12-bass box, which looks as if it is made by Mengascini.
It has a small membrane keyboard on top to program it - it can emulate
G/C, D/G, B/C, C#/D etc. while the 3rd row can be programmed to any set
of accidentals you want.
This box is sold by Didier Boyer in France (address: 2 Rue des Grandes
Varennes, 03500 Saint Pourcain-sur-Sioule, phone: 04-70-458933, fax:
04-70-458934).
Disclaimer: I've never played, or even seen this thing - information
taken from an ad in Trad Mag., the leading trad music magazine in France.
paul draper
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam) <kes...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:3846A5F3...@alum.mit.edu...
> Good description of a Theremin, DoN.
>
> Misha, I'd love to know what acoustic instrument you _were_ thinking of.
> I don't know of anything non-electronic which operates on the
> waving-your-hands-in-the-air principle, but I suppose some sort of
> mechanical resonance mechanism is vaguely possible...
>
A symphony orchestra plus conductor?
--
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> Good description of a Theremin, DoN.
>
> Misha, I'd love to know what acoustic instrument you _were_ thinking of.
> I don't know of anything non-electronic which operates on the
> waving-your-hands-in-the-air principle, but I suppose some sort of
> mechanical resonance mechanism is vaguely possible...
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author
No, I actually meant theremin, thinking it IS acoustic because original
didn't need a loudspeaker.
I was just repeating words of some Theremin players.
I am sublscribed to Theremin newsgroup and some chat room and also have (or
had) a bunch of theremin sites bookmarked.
(I am interested in theremin myself). And among great variety of theremins
of today none (as some pros say) sound quite the same as good old design.
The one that Lark In The Morning sells, a black box with transistors -
sounds plain badly. And it is not because of loudspeakers. Those electronic
transistors (whatever) just don't sound good .
But I am very far from the field of electronics and have no intention of
getting any closer.
Michael (Misha) Berenstein
> "Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)" wrote:
>
> > Good description of a Theremin, DoN.
> >
> > Misha, I'd love to know what acoustic instrument you _were_ thinking of.
> > I don't know of anything non-electronic which operates on the
> > waving-your-hands-in-the-air principle, but I suppose some sort of
> > mechanical resonance mechanism is vaguely possible...
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
> > Opinions expressed are solely those of the author
>
> No, I actually meant theremin, thinking it IS acoustic because original
> didn't need a loudspeaker.
Or so I thought. (being very ignorant of how those gadgets work.)
Were there loudspeakers in 1919? I thought radio broadcast was invented later.
Stephen Navoyosky
Date: Fri, 03 December 1999 03:47 PM EST
Message-id: <38482C5C...@pixar.com> >>
<< Or so I thought. (being very ignorant of how those gadgets work.)
Were there loudspeakers in 1919? I thought radio broadcast was invented later.
>>
Invented earlier.......actual commercial broadcasting began 1919-20 in
Pittsburgh, PA.......station KDKA.
Steve Navoyosky
Dennis A. Steckley
For some reason my accordion won't make a sound unless I "wave my hands in
the air."
(I also have to wiggle my fingers at the same time!) <vbg>
Dennis Steckley
----- Original Message -----
From: <gat...@d-and-d.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 12:01 PM
Subject: SML: Re: B/C or C#/D for first Irish BB?
> Really-From: kes...@ibm.net
> kes...@ibm.net
>
> Good description of a Theremin, DoN.
>
> Misha, I'd love to know what acoustic instrument you _were_ thinking of.
> I don't know of anything non-electronic which operates on the
> waving-your-hands-in-the-air principle, but I suppose some sort of
> mechanical resonance mechanism is vaguely possible...
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author
>
>
Charlie Ball
good, or better. Such as the Big Briar instruments or those made by Dave
Ball.>And among great variety of theremins
Robert F
<mi...@pixar.com> wrote:
>"Michael (Misha) Berenstein" wrote:>
>>
>> No, I actually meant theremin, thinking it IS acoustic because original
>> didn't need a loudspeaker.
>
>Or so I thought. (being very ignorant of how those gadgets work.)
>Were there loudspeakers in 1919? I thought radio broadcast was invented later.
>
Magnavox claims they invented the loudspeaker in 1911 (which is odd,
since the vacuum tube amplifier wasn't invented until 1912), while
AT&T claims that they invented the loudspeaker in 1916. In any case,
in 1919 loudspeakers were not generally available, and Leon Theremin
did not originally have one. Headphones had to be used to hear the
original theremins. In fact, it was a set of headphones that led to
the serendipitous discovery of the principles that led to the
realization of the theremin. The theremin was the first electronic
musical instrument.
Robert Froehner
The Musical Saw and Theremin Page
http://www.fastlane.net/~sawman
(If responding in Email, please remove NOJUNK from
the address)
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
a reasonable price. No idea how well it plays.
Note that there are at least two varieties of the instrument. The more
traditional design uses the antenna only for pitch control, and has a
knob for volume; there are alternatives which use two antennas and
either two hands or one along two axes.
Personal opinion: If anyone tells you that transistors are automatically
inferior to tubes, they're announcing that they haven't a clue about
circuit design.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Crs smitty
>Personal opinion: If anyone tells you that transistors are automatically
>inferior to tubes, they're announcing that they haven't a clue about
>circuit design.
>
>
Correct - but then they aren't talking "circuit design" when they talk
"inferior vs. superior" -- some -in their humble opinion- just prefer the
sound of vacuum tube amps - and there is a difference! I notice some of the
older vacuum tube amps demanding pretty heavy prices today! "Sound
superiority/inferiority" much like "beauty" lies in the eye/mind/heart/ear of
the beholder!
Ron Smith, Montana squeezer
ArrahCee
>"inferior vs. superior" -- some -in their humble opinion- just prefer the
>sound of vacuum tube amps - and there is a difference!
Yep, and just look at the prices of AC-30's
these days-- crummy voltage regulation
and all.
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
Tom Smith
exclusively... "solid state" amps were never considered. As Ron says, "there
is a difference!"
Tom Smith
Crs smitty wrote in message
<19991209095448...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
>>
>>Personal opinion: If anyone tells you that transistors are automatically
>>inferior to tubes, they're announcing that they haven't a clue about
>>circuit design.
>>
>>
>
>Correct - but then they aren't talking "circuit design" when they talk
>"inferior vs. superior" -- some -in their humble opinion- just prefer the