Musette or no musette?
sdu...@bisco.com
I am planning to have my Giulietti Chromatic Super CBA (C-system, LMMM,
original owner 1986) overhauled next year...All of the reeds on the
treble side pulled, cleaned, retuned, new leathers, etc. Because of
this, I have the option to switch from "dry" to musette tuning.
I enjoy playing French valses and mazurkas, and thought that this might
be the time to have musette tuning put on my CBA.
Believe it or not, this option has me seized in indecision.
I always have played a dry accordion, and, strange as it may seem, I
feel as if I am "selling out" in having my CBA tuned to musette. Have
any of you had this problem?
Since I am on the topic of musette, I have a few questions. As I
understand it, for a two reed setup, one set of reeds is usually
detuned to a lower frequency. French musette typically uses three
sets: one set detuned at a lower frequency, one set detuned at a higher
frequency, and one set at "A 440."
1. What do two-reeds sound like with the musette set detuned to a
higher frequency?
2. What do a three-reeds sound like with a single set of reeds
detuned to a higher frequency?
Thank you and with kindest regards,
Steven
HeatherR
sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>
>
> Since I am on the topic of musette, I have a few questions. As I
> understand it, for a two reed setup, one set of reeds is usually
> detuned to a lower frequency. French musette typically uses three
> sets: one set detuned at a lower frequency, one set detuned at a higher
> frequency, and one set at "A 440."
> 1. What do two-reeds sound like with the musette set detuned to a
> higher frequency?
> 2. What do a three-reeds sound like with a single set of reeds
> detuned to a higher frequency?
>
> Thank you and with kindest regards,
>
> Steven
http://www.accordionman.net/TUNING/
also
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
&
http://www.fbc-accordion-club.org/tuning.htm
that's a tough decision. i personally love a wet tuned accordion, but
some people find it too muddy.
heather
AccordionTom
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am planning to have my Giulietti Chromatic Super CBA (C-system, LMMM,
> original owner 1986) overhauled next year...All of the reeds on the
> treble side pulled, cleaned, retuned, new leathers, etc. Because of
> this, I have the option to switch from "dry" to musette tuning.
Hi, Steven,
This is the first time I've heard of an LMMM accordion that was "dry"
tuned. I guess we learn something every day! So, I take it you are
saying your 3 M reeds are all tuned to the same pitch, A440 or whatever
it is. Why would Giulietti have tuned all 3 M reeds to the same pitch?
I'd be interested in knowing whether your 3 M reeds are beatless when
played together. I would think that tuning 3 reed sets to a zero pitch
variation would be a formidable task.
> I enjoy playing French valses and mazurkas, and thought that this might
> be the time to have musette tuning put on my CBA.
>
> Believe it or not, this option has me seized in indecision.
>
> I always have played a dry accordion, and, strange as it may seem, I
> feel as if I am "selling out" in having my CBA tuned to musette. Have
> any of you had this problem?
Not me. I played an LMH for years and always wondered why I liked the
sound of the accordions in the movies (think French cafe music) better
than I liked how my accordion sounded. I had to learn about "musette"
tuning in order to understand what was really going on.
> Since I am on the topic of musette, I have a few questions. As I
> understand it, for a two reed setup, one set of reeds is usually
> detuned to a lower frequency.
My understanding is just the opposite...for a two reed setup, one set
is tuned "on pitch" while the second set is tuned "sharp" not "flat."
However, since there are no "rules" in the world of accordions, you
could certainly be right. It's just that my experience is different
from yours.
> French musette typically uses three
> sets: one set detuned at a lower frequency, one set detuned at a higher
> frequency, and one set at "A 440."
Yes, I believe this is the "typical" setup, although I have heard of a
MMM tuning setup where one reed was on-pitch, one reed was a little
sharp (say 5 cents), and the third reed was sharper yet (say 15 cents).
As I said above, I don't think there are any "rules."
The other thing to mention is that the "on-pitch" set might be at A440,
but also might be at something else. It is very common to see
accordions pitched at A441 or A442.
> 1. What do two-reeds sound like with the musette set detuned to a
> higher frequency?
This is a very common setup (MM+), usually called the "Violin" switch.
On my accordion, which is a musette-tuned LMMM, this setup is one of my
favorites. I think of it as a very mellow, sweet sound. Of course,
the sound will vary depending on the tuning. The M+ reed could be
tuned all the way from +3 or so, to say +15 or so. The degree of
"wetness" would be up to you.
> 2. What do a three-reeds sound like with a single set of reeds
> detuned to a higher frequency?
Are you referring to the 3 M reeds? I have never heard of an MMM+
setup, though I'm sure that could be done. I have no idea what it
would sound like, but I suspect it would be a "sweet" sound,
nonetheless.
Steven, I believe a "typical" LMMM box would be set up with the L reeds
and one set of M reeds on-pitch (A440 or whatever), then one of the M
reeds would be tuned flat (M-), and the third set of M reeds would be
tuned sharp (M+). With such a setup, you would still have 3 "dry"
switches, L, M, and LM.
Hope this helps,
Tom.
jmike....@ntlworld.com
What is the purpose of MMM if two of these are not detuned, even a
little?
You must select a top tuner and listen to his recommendations. If
anyone else tries to retune you could finish up with an instrument that
has several stops "out of tune" and practically useless. Musette tuning
is quite skilled as the amount of detune for the low and high middle
reeds has to be individual for each reed - not easy to do!!
If I had to be content with just one accordion it would be (skilfully)
musette tuned.
Luckily I have a Roland which gives me the best of all worlds when it
comes to tuning.
Mike O'R
sdu...@bisco.com
The LMMM dry configuration was often used by Frankie Yankovic. The
three dry middle reeds give a unique sound that is not musette as you
might think of it, but a sound that is definately different than MM or
MMH.
A little background on my CBA. Giulietti Chromatic Supers normally had
the LMMH configuration, with one middle set and the low set in a tone
chamber. Back in 2000, while talking with Lucio at STAR Concertina, I
wondered out loud if it would be possible to change an accordion from
LMMH to LMMM. Lucio said it was indeed possible and that he had done
it several times before. Considerable work is involved since the wood
block holding the piccolo reeds needs to be modified to hold larger
reeds. Once this is complete, the piccolo reeds are installed an
octave higher, converting them into middle reeds. Twelve lower reeds
are added to make up for the 12 high ones lost.
This is what I had done. I specified that the accordion should be dry
tuned. In regards to the observation that the reeds are not truely
dry, all of the 11 registers certainly sound dry. I am confident that
the frequencies of the three sets are as close to one another as is
humanly possible.
Steven
Mario Bruneau
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am planning to have my Giulietti Chromatic Super CBA (C-system, LMMM,
> original owner 1986) overhauled next year...All of the reeds on the
> treble side pulled, cleaned, retuned, new leathers, etc. Because of
> this, I have the option to switch from "dry" to musette tuning.
Steven, you seem to like the dry tuning but there is one kind of musette
that is close to the dry tuning wich you might like. Read on...
> I enjoy playing French valses and mazurkas, and thought that this might
> be the time to have musette tuning put on my CBA.
Go for it Steven!
> Believe it or not, this option has me seized in indecision.
>
> I always have played a dry accordion, and, strange as it may seem, I
> feel as if I am "selling out" in having my CBA tuned to musette. Have
> any of you had this problem?
>
> Since I am on the topic of musette, I have a few questions. As I
> understand it, for a two reed setup, one set of reeds is usually
> detuned to a lower frequency.
It's the other way around. On the violin stop (2 MM reeds), the center
reed is tuned to A440Hz (here in America and 442Hz sometimes in Europe)
and the second reed is always tuned sharp. There is a "modern" french
musette tuning. The one that you can hear on almost every modern french
musette CD. The second reed is barely tuned sharp. For A440hz, the
second reed is tuned to A438.5Hz wich give rise to a beating rate of
1.5beats/sec. This is how I tune my accordion.
> French musette typically uses three sets: one set detuned at a lower frequency,
> one set detuned at a higher frequency, and one set at "A 440."
> 1. What do two-reeds sound like with the musette set detuned to a
> higher frequency?
Like any of the violin stop since this is the standard way of tuning,
i.e. the second reed sharp to the middle reed. Also, this is the sound
you hear on the modern French musette CD you can hear today like Paris
Musette. Here is the link to buy it because this is a must have!
http://www.fremeaux.fr/pages/catalogue/fiches/pg_La-Lich%E8re-369.htm
> 2. What do a three-reeds sound like with a single set of reeds
> detuned to a higher frequency?
Mostly the same as the violin and it would be a waste. You can use the
third reed to make a "close to real" old musette.
To make up your decision Steven, here is what I suggest. Get my MP3
file of my composition "la voix des anges" (Angels' voices) and listen
to the modern french musette tuning I did on my Brandoni PA.
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/voixdesanges.mp3
Then, check the chart I have made to illustrate this tuning in my
Accordion Multimedia Conference.
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/cents3.jpg
You can show this chart to your tuner as well as have him to listen to
my recording of "la voix des anges". Further more, the third middle
reed in an MMM configuration, I tune it to twice the value of the
violin's sharp second reed. Here it is:
M = A440Hz 0 beat/sec 0 cents
M = A441.5Hz 1.5 beat/sec 6 cents sharp VIOLIN
M = A437Hz 3 beat/sec 12 cents flat MUSETTE
You can listen to more samples of my tuning on my pages and especially
the accordion DEMO :
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/extraits.html
Good luck
--
Répondre à / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Mario Bruneau
(819) 843-3852
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau
Mario Bruneau
> You got it Steve. I just finished today rebuilding of the small Corelli
> that had only two treble registers and was configured as LMM. I worked
> on plenty of LMM so I was curious how MMM sounds in small accordion.
> Now you can hear it too. Giulietti has better reeds so it's possible
> to make really nice wet musette. My Corelli is tuned according to
> Mario B. scheme.
Your little accordion sounds nice Walter but I must say it is not "my
scheme of tuning" like you state. Maybe you mean you followed the curve
of the tuning but you did not follow the slow beating modern musette I
use in my scheme. Your violin (MM) has at least 4 beats/sec wich is
quite fast and usual for italian (old) musette tuning. I use 1.5
beats/sec for the modern musette sound.
> Here is the link to the MM and MMM sound file: As somebody said here
> before that it's not much difference in MM and MMM sound.
No Walter, MM doesn't sound the same as MMM in my tuning scheme. It
does sound the same in the "old" italian way of tuning the MMM because
they make the low M as flat as the high M is sharp so exactly
symetrical. This is to amplify the beating sound effect. If two
systems beat at 6 beats/sec, the beats are amplified the same way two
clarinets playing the same note sound louder as only one clarinet. In
the old days, there was no sound system and the accordion had to be loud
in order to compete with the banjo that used to accompany the accordion.
So by amplifying the beats, louder the sound was. I explain this in
details in my Accordion Multimedia Conference but here I can't explain
just with text. I need some graphics as well as text to explain the
phenemenon more clearly.
Anyway, today, we don't need the accordion to be so loud so we go for a
more musical sound. In my tuning scheme, I give 1.5 beats/sec for the
violin and 3 beats/sec (1,5 X 2 = 3) for the flat M. Why I do exact
double? For the same reason the old school of tuning did. Namely to
benefit from the aplification of the beats. In my scheme, only half of
the time, the beats will coincide together thus reinforcing each other.
If I would have put any flat deviation like 2 beats/sec flat or 4
beats/sec flat, the beats wouldn't be as pronounced as the 1/2 symetric
tuning like mine and the old italian way of tuning would make the
beating even more pronounced and loud.
I have taken the liberty to put one extract from the "must have" Paris
Musette CD1 (there are 3). You will hear the "modern French musette"
sound as played with a Cavagnolo. This sound really cuts through the mix!
In this example, you can clearly hear that the beating rates go faster
the higher the notes and are very slow in the low range.
Mario Bruneau
> I have taken the liberty to put one extract from the "must have" Paris
> Musette CD1 (there are 3). You will hear the "modern French musette"
> sound as played with a Cavagnolo. This sound really cuts through the mix!
Excuse me! Here is the link to the ParisMusette CD1 extract:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/ParisMusette1.mp3
Ike Milligan
accordion, and you enjoy playing it, you should never have the tuning
changed. you are taking a huge risk and the odds are against you.
If you think you want musette, the thing to do is, get a musette
accordion and try it out, and don't buy one until you find one that you
like playing.
Good accordions are hard to find. Do you want to "kill the goose that
laid the golden egg"? I think not.
If you want to know what musette sounds like with one set straight one
sharp and one flat, and also wheat the sound is you have only 2 sets
with one sharp set for tremolo, you can hear both on any modern
accordion that was tuned French musette. There will be full musette
register and a half musette register. Just to jear the difference, it
might be easier to find a PA , but even if you like the sound, I urge
you not to get your accordion re tuned. Most accordions will go mostly
back into tune when the reeds are cleaned and re waxed by an expert,
then the reed tongues a re set to the right clearance where necessary
and only a little spot tuning might be necessary, that is, if it didn't
get rusty.
Ike Milligan
> sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> I am planning to have my Giulietti Chromatic Super CBA (C-system, LMMM,
>> original owner 1986) overhauled next year...All of the reeds on the
>> treble side pulled, cleaned, retuned, new leathers, etc. Because of
>> this, I have the option to switch from "dry" to musette tuning.
>
> Hi, Steven,
>
> This is the first time I've heard of an LMMM accordion that was "dry"
> tuned. I guess we learn something every day! So, I take it you are
> saying your 3 M reeds are all tuned to the same pitch, A440 or whatever
> it is. Why would Giulietti have tuned all 3 M reeds to the same pitch?
> I'd be interested in knowing whether your 3 M reeds are beatless when
> played together. I would think that tuning 3 reed sets to a zero pitch
> variation would be a formidable task.
>
that are said to be dry-tuned are not. there is a very slight difference
so you can hear all the reeds. Straight dry tuning is very unusual and
has a harsh sound.
>
<snip>
>
> My understanding is just the opposite...for a two reed setup, one set
> is tuned "on pitch" while the second set is tuned "sharp" not "flat."
> However, since there are no "rules" in the world of accordions, you
> could certainly be right. It's just that my experience is different
> from yours.
When you have two reed tremolo, it is nearly always a sharp tremolo. The
reason for that is, that the ear hears the fundamental frequency as the
lower of two pitches. So when one set is tuned to a flat tremolo and you
cut out the low octave, the accordion sounds lime it is playing in the
lower standard frequency. E.g., A 440 and A 438 sounds like the
accordion is playing in A 438 but when the low "bassoon" set in A 440 is
added to the mixture, it sounds like playing in A 440 again. And if the
cents deviation of the tremolo were not uniform all up and down the
keyboard, as is often the case, for reasons discussed earlier in the NG
posts, then the flat tremolo accordion would likely sound out of tune
with itself when played with just the 2 tremolo reeds on the register.
But flat tremolo when it is used is usually very close to "dry", in
which case the problems I just enumerated are not very noticeable, and
the advantage might be, that the flat tremolo set does not make a narrow
octave with the piccolo set. A narrow octave vis a vis the piccolo set
is more jarring than the slight narrow octave vis a vis the bassoon set.
A narrow octave beats twice as fast as a wide octave for the same pitch
difference from straight pitch, and the higher the notes, the more beats.
Ike Milligan
like, then by all means don't tamper with it. Instead get another
accordion and have both.
Ike Milligan
question? Do you have the cents the same from low to high ends of the
keyboard, or does the tremolo increase and decrease more slowly in both
directions from A 440 than it would if you kept the cents difference
uniform?
w.d.
Hi Mario,
I agree with you. My tuning doesn't sound the same as yours. After
listening to one of your sounds files, I felt that I misspoke saying
that I follow your scheme. I just follow your parameters, yet I
made the second M as low as 436 hz. and kept decreasing going up.
Yours was only 438 hz. as you declared.
I don't agree with you on statement about the ludness of accordions. I
like loud accordions. Ability to play naturally loud without
electronic gear shows the quality of reeds, reed blocks and quality of
accordion overall.
That's why I remove my file, but obviously not fast enough. I
wanted to have some vibration in the low part of keyboard and less
of it in the higher elevations of the keyboard and overall strong
wet musette.
I don't use sophisticated checkers and tuners. I rely on my ears and
what is pleasant for me. I can not give good details how it's tuned
step by step, but surely is not like yours. How well and nice is
tuned a particular accordion. it depends on quality of reeds, the
talent of the tuner, and amount of time he/she wants to spend
messing around with every detail. The final outcome is actually to
liking of the beholder.
One person likes this and another likes that. It happen that I prefer
better as you call it an old Italian tuning. After listening some
CD's of some others recording that yours, I decided that I really
do not want to have French tuning which seems to me badly out of
tune. Anyway, I wouln't know hw to tune your way.
PS: The same discussion on the same topic was conducted here around
Feb. 9. I agree what Ike said. I would leave original tuning
undisturbed in highly professional accordion, and if it is really
necessary, I would order the two reed blocks of the same size and
also buy two extra sets of good quality reeds and have it alldone as
spare. When I changed configuration of middle size accordions from
LMH for LMM, I do not work on original reed blocks. I make the new
reed blocks and give back old ones. Once reed block is disturbed it
never be the same. Close to me there is the place where they make
bodies to expensive guitars, and they allowe for me to pick up the
scrap exotic wood pieces which are excellent for reed blocks.
This is the sound file again:
http://users.snip.net/~wjd40/trans/musette.mp3
I will remove this sound file from my web space after a couple of
days.
This is not masterpiece anyway. I just want to show the real sound of
accordion that is not mutilated with other bells and whistles.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Ventura
sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>
> I am planning to have my Giulietti Chromatic Super CBA (C-system, LMMM,
> original owner 1986) overhauled next year...
> Ike added:
> You know what? I would leave it like it is. Once you have a good
> accordion, and you enjoy playing it, you should never have the tuning
> changed. you are taking a huge risk and the odds are against you.
there IS a way to both follow Ike's excellent advise AND have what
you want
go to Italy for a Vacation and take your Accordion with you
the Giulietti company is, of course, history now, but the Factory
your accordion was actually built at still exists. Since Giulietti
for the most part used "stock bodies" from Zero-Sette, there is
at least a fair chance they are still making that same
"physical accordion" today.
If that is the case, it would be childs play for them to
set up and fit a complete alternate set of reedblocks and
reeds for your accordion. In future, swap them out from
time to time as your mood and gigs dictate. In this manner
you would preserve the original accordion completely, yet
have the sound you want for experimentation and fun.
Not to mention, as far as the overhauling of the accordion
is concerned, obviously the factory would be able to do it
as well as anyone, and have the original tapes and parts
should any such materials be required.
Generally speaking, i would advise getting in touch with
them, making most of the arrangements, and shipping your
instrument to them. Allow an appropriate amount of time for
them to complete the overhaul and prepare the alternate
reedblocks, then vacation in Italy for 2 weeks to:
a: go to the factory and finalize the new tuning to your tastes
b: pick up your accordion and hand carry it back home
why? because shipping accordions is always risky... but if
something is damaged on the way over, well, where better
to get it fixed? but for the trip home, hand carrying
your baby is the way to go (you'd be sick after spending
all that money if the Shippers mess it up for you)
BTW, It would be the vacation of a Lifetime and you'd have
an absolute blast
Ciao
Ventura
Ventura
this is a nice discussion, hits the Meusette question
from a slightly different angle
I'd like to add some observations from the opposite
end of things
Basically, i can use the "gentle meusette" on my
accordions (one reedset 440 the second slightly sharp)
for a sweet sound. It's a happy sound, with lightness,
and allows you to play solo notes or full chords as
you like without reservation.
on my Fisitalia MMM still tuned conservatively, the
lower m slightly flat adds a fullness but is still
sweet when used with the 440 and sharp reeds. Full
chords are still playable at will.
If i combine only the sharp and flat reeds, leaving the
a-440 silent, the vibrato is more pronounced, and closer
to what i would describe as a sad meusette sound, suitable
for those slow Sicilian songs that make you cry. I have
to be careful where and what type of chords i play with
this sound, as it is possible to get a muddy effect. Two
note and most 3 note chord are OK, but full fisted chording
is to be avoided.
On my little MMM Giulietti, the Meusette is a touch stronger as
well as more irregular (the tuning is not linear) but
still not "typically French" as far as the total variation
in frequency is concerned, HOWEVER more French people
(who were Born in France or Algiers) have complimented
me on the overall sound of this little box, and specifically
said they like it best, that the sound takes them home again.
I also have one Excelsior LMMM (a MIDI) which happens to be
tuned true French.
With this accordion, using the full MMM setting, there is
no way I can play any kind of chord at all without it making
me cringe... but for solo note melodies it sounds incredibly
French and fits the music to a "T" (think fast Waltz)
Because I historically use multiple note crossing patterns and
chords almost constantly, it is very very difficult for me to
use this Meusette sound, as i have to supress my natural style
of play.
Example: Sur le Ciel de Paris; i use a frequent sub pattern
as an intro, ending, and between melody riff for which i hold
the top note with my pinkie while i play a riff with my other
fingers. On the French Meusette tuning, this just doesn't work.
Example: Pigalle; for the bridge, i hit a flashing chord from
low to high on the uptake of the little riffs, and again use a
pinkie hold and lower riff to link the sections of the bridge.
no way i can do this on the French Meusette tuning, it sounds
positively scary and suddenly harsh which is too much of a
contrast to the sweetness of the solo-note passage.
My solution is to use the Meusette sound, then hold the bellows
still and bring in some Strings with a volume pedal for the
chorded riffs and such, when i use this box on a gig. I'll
unplug it from the rig occasionally and stroll but am careful
then to only play solo-note melodies.
Most often, i take 2 accordions to a gig anyway.
I guess my point is, the technical aspects of the various tunings
are awesome, and we need to follow them to set our instruments up,
but the type of Meusette you actually find most usable is going to
be determined a LOT by the way you play your instrument.
Ciao
Ventura
AccordionTom
Excellent post, Ventura!
You make some really good points...it's all about the music!
Tom.
Mario Bruneau
> When you have two reed tremolo, it is nearly always a sharp tremolo. The
> reason for that is, that the ear hears the fundamental frequency as the
> lower of two pitches. So when one set is tuned to a flat tremolo and you
> cut out the low octave, the accordion sounds lime it is playing in the
> lower standard frequency. E.g., A 440 and A 438 sounds like the
> accordion is playing in A 438 but when the low "bassoon" set in A 440 is
> added to the mixture, it sounds like playing in A 440 again. And if the
> cents deviation of the tremolo were not uniform all up and down the
> keyboard, as is often the case, for reasons discussed earlier in the NG
> posts, then the flat tremolo accordion would likely sound out of tune
> with itself when played with just the 2 tremolo reeds on the register.
> But flat tremolo when it is used is usually very close to "dry", in
> which case the problems I just enumerated are not very noticeable, and
> the advantage might be, that the flat tremolo set does not make a narrow
> octave with the piccolo set. A narrow octave vis a vis the piccolo set
> is more jarring than the slight narrow octave vis a vis the bassoon set.
> A narrow octave beats twice as fast as a wide octave for the same pitch
> difference from straight pitch, and the higher the notes, the more beats.
Thanks Ike! Very instructive post. It's always fun to learn even at 55 ;-)
Mario Bruneau
>
> BTW, It would be the vacation of a Lifetime and you'd have
> an absolute blast
>
> Ciao
>
> Ventura
And make sure you go eat at DIONEA's tratoria!
Also, you don't want to miss SIROLO 20Km from Castelfidardo on the
Adriatica Sea. What a paradise! I always sleep there when going to
Castelfidardo : Monte Conero Hotel and Sirolo Hotel are a good start.
Oh yeah, alomost forgot, drink the CUMARO wine. A Rosso Conero typical
local wine by M. Umani Ronchi.
(good post Ventura)
Mario Bruneau
> Thank you very much for that elucidation, Mario! Acn I ask you one
> question? Do you have the cents the same from low to high ends of the
> keyboard, or does the tremolo increase and decrease more slowly in both
> directions from A 440 than it would if you kept the cents difference
> uniform?
No. Never. As you can see on my slide taken from my Accordion
Multimedia Conference :
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/cents3.jpg
Translation:
batt/sec = beats/sec
The upper figure is the beats/sec and under it is the equivalent cents
deviations corresponding.
On this slide I used a beatrate of 2 beats/sec for clarity but it is
easy to deduct for the tuning I did on my Brandoni of a beatrate of only
1.5 beats/sec.
So at A440Hz, the sharp M is 8 cents sharp going down gradually to 10
cents for the first F (F174Hz) Then, from 8 cents for A440 the cents
diminishe gradually to 6 cents for A880 one octave up. Notice here that
the cents values dimishes while the beatrates increases from 2 beats/sec
to 3 beats/sec! The A880 is where I call "the split point". It's where
you need to augment fairly rapidly the beatrates so to compensate for
the relative weakness of the high notes on the accordion. The lower
notes have a tendency to be louder than the higher ones. By applying
more beats on the highs, you get some dynamic balance. So from the A880
beating at a beatrate of 3 beats/sec, you must augment to 12 beats/sec
for the last higher note, namely A1760. Notice the higher A1760 beats
at exactly the cent deviation. Here for example, I tune it with 12
cents sharp so then it give rise to 12 beats/sec. On the other hand,
the first (lower) note F174Hz on our piano accordion beats at 10 times
the cents deviation. Here for example, I gave it 10 cents sharpness so
it give rise to a 1 beat/sec beatrate. Those two extreme sould help
anyone trying to tune his accordion as it give them a good and easy
start to evaluate the beating rate they want to achieve on their instrument.
Question: Why you make the lower notes slower beating than the higher notes?
Tuning two clarinets with a slight difference will ad some overtones or
harmonics to the sound. It will make the sound richer. This is the
whole idea behind the musette tuning, that is to enrich the sound.
A clarinet alone as some overtones we call harmonics. Human ear can
hear from 20hz to 20,000Hz or 20kHz (actually it does at age 17 years
old and decreases to 16kHz at age 30 and 12 to 14kHz (the most) for 40
years and older) We tune musette to add harmonics. Musette tuning
makes the accordion sounds richer with more overtones added. The high
notes give rise to harmonics not heard by human ears so for the same
beatrate, the higher notes on our accordion will sound less rich. On
the opposite, the lower notes have more "headroom" to give rise to
harmonics that are whitin the human ears spectrum so for the same
beatrate, the lower notes will sound richer than the higher notes. So
again, we make lower notes beat at slower beating rates because they
don't need as many beats/sec to make them sound as rich as the upper notes.
sdu...@bisco.com
> ...the Giulietti company is, of course, history now, but the Factory
> your accordion was actually built at still exists. Since Giulietti
> for the most part used "stock bodies" from Zero-Sette, there is
> at least a fair chance they are still making that same
> "physical accordion" today.
Dear Ventura,
That is a fantastic idea! It would be the best of both worlds to have
a set of musette reeds on separate reedblocks to install when I feel in
the mood for a musette sound. The more I think about it, the more
exciting it sounds. Open the accordion, swap the two dry reedblocks
outside of the tone chamber for the musetted reedblocks, close the
accordion, play.
Although a trip to Italy is not an option for me, I do know a
reputable accordion shop in the Chicago area. They could do a final
fitting adjustment.
The question remains that if Zero-Sette has a reedblock that will fit a
Giulietti Chromatic Super built about 20 years ago. Can you recommend
a person with whom I may speak about this?
On the subject of reedblocks, Is there a place where I could order one?
What measurements are required?
Thank you and all of the others for your responses.
With kindest regards,
Steven (5-row CBA, C-system)
w.d.
sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>
> On the subject of reedblocks, Is there a place where I could order one?
> What measurements are required?
>
> Thank you and all of the others for your responses.
>
> With kindest regards,
>
> Steven (5-row CBA, C-system)<<<<<<<
THE BEST WAY IS TO SEND OR BRING THE TREBLE SIDE OF ACCORDION TO LOCAL
SHOP OR TO THE CHOSEN SHOP, SO REED BLOCKS COULD BE DUPLICATED
ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE REEDS, MATCHING ALL ORIGINAL BLOCKS. REEDS FROM
OLD SOPRANI OR SCANDALLI MADE IN 1940-ITES WILL BE GOOD CHOICE FOR
GIULIETTI. I'M SO INTERESTED IN THIS TREAD THAT I DECIDED TO FOLLOW IT
UP EVEN AFTER THE OPERATION ON MY RIGHT HAND THAT WAS HELD TODAY. THE
SURGERY WAS PLANNED FOR A S0ME TIME SINCE THE FALL OF 2005.
I'M DOING FINE AND HOPEFULLY SHELL RECOVER IN 3-4 WEEKS. I HAVE BEEN
WORKING TO THE END. I WILL KEEP QUIET NOW FOR A WHILE.
ENJOY IT,
W.D.
Ernesto_the_liar
the phenomenon of "musette' is in all actuality an out of tune
accordion and that's all there is to it. How much is a matter of
personal taste.
The terms WET and DRY are subjective and relative. What one callse dry
another would find too wet.
Polka players, especially the Cleveland Slovenian style guys like three
reeds right on top of each other. The purpose for this is mainly
loudness. The sympathetic vibrations from three reeds tuned as close as
possible gives the accordion the most punch.
As you spread the pitch out, the accoridon has less and less volume per
pound of air pushed through.
>From the standpoint of physics it is IMPOSSIBLE to have three sets of
reeds tuned exactly the same. A Dremel Tool tuner is going to have the
hardest time with such a tuning, but even the great hand tuners cannot
deliver three sets of reeds tuned perfectly to A 440.
In a symphony, horns can't do it and strings can't do it. It is
impossible to tune two pianos exactly alike. There are too many
varibles in tuning, instrumentation has a margin of error (electronic
tuners), the placement of the reeds in wax and into reed blacks has an
effect on pitch, as does the location of the reeds. Simply by virtue of
having three different reed blocks, there will be minute differences in
pitch, EVEN with a so called dry tuning.
Nobody on this board can tell you what tuning to choose. And it isn't
"tuning" we are tlaking abuot, it is actually called voicing, or in
the case of Musette, DE- tuning.
Asking others about which tuning is right for you is like asking people
here to pick out a wife.
The BEST thing you can do is to take your accordion to a REAL TUNING
EXPERT and NOT some goofball who mutillates reeds with a power tool.
Convey to your technician what sounds, what style and what effect you
would like to have. Let HIM provide the options to you.
If you send your accordion away without knowing the formula you want,
you might as well be playing slot machines.
Give Navoyosky an email. He IS qualified to help you. They guy studied
accordion building and repair with the great artisans and apprenticed
at the original Excelsior factory.
The guy played on broadway and comped behind the worlds most famous
artists of the day. He arranges for guys like Frank Marocco, he walked,
talked and played along side the great Magnante and was a personal
friend and colleague of Julio Giulietti, who by the way was
instrumental as an executive producer of Marocco's foundational
recordings.
Do yourself a favor, take your accordion to someone who has a lineage
and a connection to the great artisans of the accordion. If you let
some Dremel tool nincompoop who learned accordion repair from a digest
book mutillate your accordion, don't say I didn't give you the right
advice ahead of time.
Good luck.
Ike Milligan
Have you played the Ike-picture bellows accordion for your girlfriend
yet? I think it should be real turn-on for her. Especially if you put
an inflatable prosthesis in the center that pops out when you squeeze
the bellows shut. You could follow that up with a Dremel tool with a
wobbling vibrating attachment.
>
> The BEST thing you can do is to take your accordion to a REAL TUNING
> EXPERT and NOT some goofball who mutillates reeds with a power tool.
> Convey to your technician what sounds, what style and what effect you
> would like to have. Let HIM provide the options to you.
>
> If you send your accordion away without knowing the formula you want,
> you might as well be playing slot machines.
>
> Give Navoyosky an email. He IS qualified to help you. They guy studied
> accordion building and repair with the great artisans and apprenticed
> at the original Excelsior factory.
>
He is also qualified, like you, to denigrate and criticize anyone who
did not pay him to learn his methods.
> The guy played on broadway and comped behind the worlds most famous
> artists of the day. He arranges for guys like Frank Marocco, he walked,
> talked and played along side the great Magnante and was a personal
> friend and colleague of Julio Giulietti, who by the way was
> instrumental as an executive producer of Marocco's foundational
> recordings.
And don't forget to ask all those guys, the ones that are still alive,
for references, which conveniently leaves only Steve Navoyosky and Frank
Marocco.
>
> Do yourself a favor, take your accordion to someone who has a lineage
> and a connection to the great artisans of the accordion. If you let
> some Dremel tool nincompoop who learned accordion repair from a digest
> book mutillate your accordion, don't say I didn't give you the right
> advice ahead of time.
>
Better yet, don't have any work done on it except as Mr. Ventura
suggested.
Ike Milligan
unless executed exactly as recommended.
It's not like you have a car which you take to a mechanic, and he can
get whatever original parts you need from the dealer, or after market
parts from Advance Auto.
If you would like to do something related to what Mr. Ventura suggested,
but you can't go to Italy, you need a connection who is on good terms
with the Zero Sette people. That is someone who already has some sort of
business relationship with them. Not just Bob's Accordion shop or
whatever. And this person needs to first understand what you want and
has to be agreeable to approach Zero Sette.
Now. I could be totally wrong about this, but if I were you, I would
forget all about accordion shops and technicians in the USA. Instead,
this is how I would suggest proceeding. Take out the reed blocks and put
them on a scanner or copy machine and copy the bases of the blocks, and
then the sides and then the tops. If you are serious about doing this
and not going to waste someone's time, I can try to find you a
connection. Or maybe Phil has an idea or supplementary suggestion. Or if
I am totally full of * he might read this and tell me so, I will admit
that I am often wrong.
w.d.
Ike Milligan wrote:
> sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
> If you would like to do something related to what Mr. Ventura suggested,
> but you can't go to Italy, you need a connection who is on good terms
> with the Zero Sette people. That is someone who already has some sort of
> business relationship with them. Not just Bob's Accordion shop or
> whatever. And this person needs to first understand what you want and
> has to be agreeable to approach Zero Sette.
Or if
> I am totally full of * he might read this and tell me so, I will admit
> that I am often wrong<<<<
No Ike, you right too, but the guy must be a progmatic person when
dealing with his own money and accordions.
I'm certain that two needed reed block can be made to exact
specifications here in America. This is a question of trust. I made
already many sets of new reed blocks. You just need approprate supplies
of exotic wood, good table saw, fine working bend saw, sanding machine,
drill press, and the Dremel tool is also very handy. Well, cabinet
making carpentry skills are also necessary. Carpenter's glue is
plentiful and cheap in America.
Some people need to learn those skills in shops through many, many
years and others get them from reading digests ten and more times
faster.
Yet, I don't believe that anybody in this Forum is ready and willing
even to give a chance to anybody local or even other member of this
group. This applies to sales, to repairs and everything else.
Steven, if you plan to do it, don't hesitate and go to the Chicago
shop. The first and own idea is always the best.
Good Luck.
W.D.
Ike Milligan
version of what to do. It is a modification of Phil's idea. Every thing
he has said shows that he doesn't understand the basics of the accordion
business. But why should he be expected to understand that? That's why
Phil was trying to help him. Unable to take Phil's advice he came up
with an idea, based on his interpretation instead of asking more
questions. That also is understandable. It is to be expected that people
will have creative ideas that might, or might not work, based on a
picture in their minds of the possibilities which might be
impossibilities in the real world.
Your reply is based on your version of what you think it is advisable
and feasible to do. But your reply is not based on what he proposed to
do. He wasn't proposing to have a reed block made in Chicago. He was
thinking of trying to follow Phil's suggestion of getting the reed
blocks in Italy from Zero-Sette. That's what I was trying to suggest he
do, and explaining how I think he can make that possible without going
there to the factory.
If what he wanted to do was have reed blocks made in Chicago and have
the reeds installed there, I would have said nothing.
Ike Milligan
> w.d. wrote:
>> Ike Milligan wrote:
>>> sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>>
>>> If you would like to do something related to what Mr. Ventura suggested,
>>> but you can't go to Italy, you need a connection who is on good terms
>>> with the Zero Sette people. That is someone who already has some sort of
>>> business relationship with them. Not just Bob's Accordion shop or
>>> whatever. And this person needs to first understand what you want and
>>> has to be agreeable to approach Zero Sette.
>> Or if
>>> I am totally full of * he might read this and tell me so, I will admit
>>> that I am often wrong<<<<
>>
>>
>> No Ike, you right too, but the guy must be a progmatic person when
>> dealing with his own money and accordions.
>>
>> I'm certain that two needed reed block can be made to exact
>> specifications here in America. This is a question of trust. I made
>> already many sets of new reed blocks.
<snip>
>>
>> Yet, I don't believe that anybody in this Forum is ready and willing
>> even to give a chance to anybody local or even other member of this
>> group. This applies to sales, to repairs and everything else.
>>
>> Steven, if you plan to do it, don't hesitate and go to the Chicago
>> shop. The first and own idea is always the best.
>>
I would never interfere in a relationship with another technician and a
customer. If he had said, "I have discussed this with 'Mr. Chicago' and
in his shop will be made my blocks and the accordion is going to be
fixed up nice for me", I would not have said anything about it, but
secretly wished him much success. In fact, if I knew of this Chicago
person I would probably be referring people in that area to him for
business.
He was not even saying he was going to do anything but try to get blocks
from Zero-Sette. He never mentioned hat he had any relationship with
Chicago. I thought it was just an idea of how to get blocks from Italy.
Now Mr. Chicago might be able to do that. Be he did not say that he had
discussed it with him or if he had any indication of that. If he had
said that, there would have been nothing for me to add.
Ventura
i agree... present the request in a well thought
out manner as evidenced by the detail and clarity, that
way in Italy they will believe it is a serious request
as for the contact, remember Alessio?
(his handle was accoal)
ze...@tiscalinet.it
he used to post occasionally here, and tried to keep
up with our discussions (in lurk mode)... as i recall
he worked at the factory
so there's a start for a contact :)
(i still have my census archives intact)
Ciao
Ventura
Ike Milligan wrote:
> sdu...@bisco.com wrote:
>
> .....And this person needs to first understand what you want .............
> ..............................Take out the reed blocks and put
Ike Milligan
Phil, this might be a good person to serve as emissary, but first before
even asking him, all the proverbial ducks should be in a row. I won't
mention any personal recommendations until I know more about the
technical details. I would have to have all the requested specs from the
source before I took any action whatsoever. Which probably keeps me out
of the loop, so to speak.
w.d.
> hi Ike,
>
> i agree... present the request in a well thought
> out manner as evidenced by the detail and clarity, that
> way in Italy they will believe it is a serious request
>
> as for the contact, remember Alessio?
> (his handle was accoal)
> ze...@tiscalinet.it
>
> he used to post occasionally here, and tried to keep
> up with our discussions (in lurk mode)... as i recall
> he worked at the factory
>
> so there's a start for a contact :)
>
> (i still have my census archives intact)
>
> Ciao
>
> Ventura
I agree with you guys and think that you have good ideas, and try to
help the best way as you see it. First, I was looking at it as the
logistical problem. The second, the owner of Giulietti was not sure
what he wants to do.
Now, I have been testing the theory of cooperation with Italy. Already
for six months I have been trying to get bass machine for old Dellape
Organetto six rows, 140 bass accordion that I'm trying to bring to
life. I'm trying to get and install new machine, or get old one that
is good, or fit into the bass compartment completely new bass machine -
regular, or the free bass that would be even better.
So far, everybody is only ready to sell the new accordion and nothing
extra.
Italians, seems to be operating nowadays the same way as Chinese do -
just sell it and forget about it. They hate to bother with fitting
rebuilt parts into old accordions. I will find out what Alessio would
say to me. I wrote to him about what I need, and my situation. The
building of the new machine is too much for me, although if I had
proper tools I would attempt to do it. It would be different and not
that one like that old junk Dellape bass machine.
They have parts and everything close to get. I wish that some accorion
parts supply store like Carini was operating here in America.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Ike Milligan
every day. Most of them are not custom accordion makers, and even if
they were, they would deal with someone standing in front of them and
not every gringo turkey that calls from the USA.
People call and waste your time and if you try to help them, and make
arrangements they don't follow through. That's why the saying: "Money
talks; b.s. walks".
The people you are calling are very busy and they are in the business of
selling new accordions. So are Chinese manufacturers, but fortunately
for them, you are not calling China.
w.d.
Ike Milligan wrote:
> w.d. wrote:
> >
> every day. Most of them are not custom accordion makers, and even if
> they were, they would deal with someone standing in front of them and
> not every gringo turkey that calls from the USA.
Well Ike, I got message back from Alessio. He would help me and I
beleive him. I established connections with him long time ego but
didn't wanted to bother him. Zero Sette sells lots of accordions to
Poland. Ms. Kaminski famous female concert B-system accordion player
from Poland plays Zero Sette.
If they refuse to talk to "gringo turkey" so there is also indication
that they will not talk to the pilgrim. Chinese make accordions for
throwing away, Italians made accordions that last. This is the
difference and the responsibility that goes with it.
Reconditioning of accordions prolongs life of those instruments, and
many Italian factories do that now. Zero Sette is so busy with
reconditioning of other makes of accordions, that they are booked for
two years ahead - this is according to Alessio statement, but he also
can gives the jobs to others who do not communicate in English. That's
how I plan to get my bass side done to my old Dellape. This is very
good news for all players who use Italian accordions. Yes, I agree
that somebody in Italy who knows situation in this country is very
sympathetic to our logistical problems.
Best Regards,
W.D.
Mario Bruneau
> Now, I have been testing the theory of cooperation with Italy. Already
> for six months I have been trying to get bass machine for old Dellape
> Organetto six rows, 140 bass accordion that I'm trying to bring to
> life. I'm trying to get and install new machine, or get old one that
> is good, or fit into the bass compartment completely new bass machine -
> regular, or the free bass that would be even better.
>
> So far, everybody is only ready to sell the new accordion and nothing
> extra.
> Enjoy it,
> W.D.
You won't get this Walter. See, accordion making in Italy is NOT what
it use to be. I mean the famous accordion names like Dallape dont even
build their accordions anymore and the fact they are still in business
is that they count on their prestigious name to continue to sell
accordions they dont even make anymore (excuse my English). Don't ask
them who make their accordions for them, they will shoot you!
That is why Dallape don't bother fitting bass mechanism on old Dallape
because the bass mechanisms of today Dallape are made by ONE bass
mechanism factory that makes ALL the bass mechanism for ALL the italian
accordions sold today. You should find this particular bass mechanism
company and they will send you the exact duplicate for your particular
Dallape model.
Conclusion : today, like you say, "so far, everybody is only ready to
sell the new accordion and nothing extra" and tomorrow, they wont even
sell accordions anymore.
--
Répondre ą / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Ike Milligan
That's very good! Please keep us informed of all developments.
Len Killick
Mario Bruneau wrote:
>
> You won't get this Walter. See, accordion making in Italy is NOT what
> it use to be. I mean the famous accordion names like Dallape dont even
> build their accordions anymore and the fact they are still in business
> is that they count on their prestigious name to continue to sell
> accordions they dont even make anymore (excuse my English). Don't ask
> them who make their accordions for them, they will shoot you!
>
> That is why Dallape don't bother fitting bass mechanism on old Dallape
> because the bass mechanisms of today Dallape are made by ONE bass
> mechanism factory that makes ALL the bass mechanism for ALL the italian
> accordions sold today. You should find this particular bass mechanism
> company and they will send you the exact duplicate for your particular
> Dallape model.
>
> Conclusion : today, like you say, "so far, everybody is only ready to
> sell the new accordion and nothing extra" and tomorrow, they wont even
> sell accordions anymore.
>
It isn't quite as bad as you suggest Mario, but the end result is true.
Some (most) factories certainly do still make their own basses, but
from common components - they don't make the individual rods and levers
but do assemble the mechanism to thier own instrument design. I have
had different bass mechanisms made to order (for example 4x12 48-bass
instead of 6x8) but it's only really economically viable for 10 or 20
instruments made together. So the conclusion is the same, if you want a
single custom made bass for one instrument it's hardly worth the time
of a reply as the cost would not be acceptable - it's not I suspect
just the making the bass, but the delay to the other workers while the
bass maker is dealing with the special order.
For a man with w.d.'s ability I would have thought that he could just
buy the components (that shouldn't be so difficult) and build the
custom mechanism himself.
Len Killick
w.d.
Len Killick wrote:
>
> For a man with w.d.'s ability I would have thought that he could just
> buy the components (that shouldn't be so difficult) and build the
> custom mechanism himself.
>
> Len Killick>>>>
Hi Len,
That what I would like to do. I have plenty of time since I'm retired
and with my experience and Industrial Education Technology background,
making bass machine from ready components would be very simple task.
The problem is that I cannot find any connection where I can buy those
components and list of them with names and the pictures if possible.
When I write to italians, even if they know where to go they ignore to
tell me.
You're very close to Italy the Center of Accordiosn World. If possible
could you find for me the supplier of those parts and send to me in
privite e-mail to: wj...@snip.net that information. I could also
changed many 12 bass and 24 bass accordions to 32 bass or extend 32
bass to 40 bass. All kinds of possibilities wait ahead if such
connection was available.
Best Regards,
W.D.
sdu...@bisco.com
Dear Friends,
First, I thank all of you for your responses and recommendations! I am
pleased and surprised that my inquiry evolved into such a long thread.
Ideally, I would like to have a second set of middle reeds, musetted,
to exchange with the dry reeds. From the discussion developed here on
the group, this is an expensive and involved process. I spoke to the
helpful people at Italo-American about building a new reedblock. Long
story short...they were not enthusiastic about it, but, anything is
possible with the proper amount of cash.
It would be difficult to inquire about a reedblock for my accordion
without knowing the price range. As much as I love my Giulietti, I do
have a limit on how much I can spend. As some of you have wisely
stated, this endeavor must start with thorough research in regards to
what exactly I want and how much it will probably cost. The first part
is done. What remains is determining what it would cost to obtain the
reedblocks (stock item or custom built).
There are a couple manufacturers that build reedblocks to order. I
have just started collecting information from them.
(And, of course, I will eventually need reeds...but, one step at a
time.)
Once again, thank you for your responses and discussions.
With kindest regards,
Steven