About accordion reeds & related
ras...@home.net
know.
- Serious literature on subject: Germans did some formal studies,
Russians are not so distant second. USSR had a whole Research Institute
dedicate to study of music instruments. For example, they did studies
on precise size of resonators as early as 1934 - which was then re-used
by all of the (state-owned) factories. Also, optimal reed size were
calculated and published about same time.
Unfortunately there's not a whole lot on the subject on the Internet
- About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases), Russian vary: some
masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
- Reed profile (thickness): too stiff is bad (low sound production,
won't play @ piano, sound is too dull) and too soft is bad as well
(will tend to shut off @ forte & fortissimo, tone will bend too much
(get lower @ progressively higher volumes). That's all there's to it,
the right profile is somewhere in between :).
Profile must be such that reeed doesn't bend @ the root, instead may be
1/8th of the reed's length away from it. The "bending point" will get
closer to the tip as pitch increases. Highest pitch reeds will bend
5/8th of length toward the tip.
Highest notes will be as thin as 0.002 of inch @ the tip. Thickness for
higher notes will be fairly uniform from bend point to the tip.
For lower notes it won't be the case - one can safely have tip thicker
than @ bend point, to have lower tone. And of course, for lowest notes
weight is soldered @ the tip. Brass is used the most, being some of
heavier metals.
Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
- What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
and overall effort to play.
Problem with best instruments: due to extremely close tolerances, some
reeds will jam/buzz @ too low/too high temperatures.
- Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
temper as regular blue spring steel.
- Reed plates: Russians use aircraft-grade alluminum (150 Brinnell, US
equivalent: 7072 alloy). Italians use some weird alloy (scratch a reed
plate and you will see brassy collor emerge for higher reeds, for lower
ones it seem to be some sort of 6xxx aluminum, in T4 or thereabout).
- Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
responsive.
- Reed plate thickness: has to be about the same as max amplitude of
respective reed's travel. Thicker/thinner will reduce volume somewhat,
not a whole lot.
- Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant woods,
reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the middle
piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
maple/oak/mahogany. Top of the reed block is varnished for the same
reason exterior of say violin is: to make it resistant to dirt/sweat.
Inside is not as it will affect resonant qualities of wood (again, just
as violins and other string instruments).
- Reed leathers are very important. Need to be thin enough, fluffy :)
toward the reed plate, yet responsive and springy. Calfskin and
lambskin are used. Larger leathers will have boosters: Russians use
strips cut out of 35mm photo film, Italians use thin strips cut out of
stainless shim stock (0.0015")
- There's pronounced difference in sound of PA and large pro CBAs (62
notes). Reason: CBAs are stuffed to where almost no space for sound to
bounce around is left inside. PA's have more space inside (RH has
almost 30% less space occupied).
- More on reeds: Italians grind and stamp them out using machines.
Russians, in pro instruments, do everything by hand. Pros and cons to
both methods, but pro Russian bayans have no equals.
Mike
Mike
<ras...@home.net> wrote in message
news:1102478893....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
johann Pascher
Hi, Rashid Karimov!
Indeed a nice surprise hearing from you!
Very good information!
I fully can agree with everything, a few things are new for me.
I would like to make some comments between the lines.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: ras...@home.net
> Really-From: ras...@home.net
>
> Saw some interest expressed here about reeds. Here are some of what I
> know.
>
> - Serious literature on subject: Germans did some formal studies,
> Russians are not so distant second. USSR had a whole ResearchInstitute
> dedicate to study of music instruments. For example, they did studies
> on precise size of resonators as early as 1934 which was then re-used
> by all of the (state-owned) factories. Also, optimal reed size were
> calculated and published about same time.
New for me, is literature in german or englisch language available?
Or could you supply us with some more info on this?
>
> Unfortunately there's not a whole lot on the subject on the Internet
>
> - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
> thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
> for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases),
Agree!
> Russian vary: some
> masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
> AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
would like to hear more info on this, if possible!
>
> - Reed profile (thickness): too stiff is bad (low sound production,
> won't play @ piano, sound is too dull) and too soft is bad as well
> (will tend to shut off @ forte & fortissimo, tone will bend too much
> (get lower @ progressively higher volumes). That's all there's to it,
> the right profile is somewhere in between :).
Agree!
>
> Profile must be such that reeed doesn't bend @ the root,instead may be
> 1/8th of the reed's length away from it. The "bending point" will get
> closer to the tip as pitch increases. Highest pitch reeds will bend
> 5/8th of length toward the tip.
>
> Highest notes will be as thin as 0.002 of inch @ the tip.Thickness for
> higher notes will be fairly uniform from bend point to the tip.
>
> For lower notes it won't be the case - one can safely have tip thicker
> than @ bend point, to have lower tone. And of course, for lowest notes
> weight is soldered @ the tip. Brass is used the most, being some of
> heavier metals.
>
> Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
Agee, could not explain it better!
>
> - What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
> the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
> as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
> tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
> will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
> and overall effort to play.
Agree, I tried to explain this earlier here in the news group, but it
seamed I could not put it into right words.
>
> Problem with best instruments: due to extremely close tolerances, some
> reeds will jam/buzz @ too low/too high temperatures.
Agree!
>
>
> - Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
> Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
> Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
> StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
> temper as regular blue spring steel.
New to mee!
>
> - Reed plates: Russians use aircraft-grade alluminum (150 Brinnell, US
> equivalent: 7072 alloy). Italians use some weird alloy (scratch a reed
> plate and you will see brassy collor emerge for higher reeds,for lower
> ones it seem to be some sort of 6xxx aluminum, in T4 or thereabout).
I always ware a bit puzzled about the type of aluminium is used, I
noticed that especially on helicon frames the weight ware different if
one compared different makes.
>
> - Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
> exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
> responsive.
Ok, that is a point I really would like to talk abut it a bit more!
I have made tests with different reeds from Italy and Czech and Germany.
And I came to the same opinion.
I confronted Mr. Tittelbach from Harmonicas Loony with the results and
he meant the opposite is true.
More test come up with modern hand finished reed sets from all major
factory’s in the future.
So you say that real Russian bayan reed plates use reed plate cuts with
tapered Angle 4-5° , so that the opening gets wider, correct?
Steve Navoyosky, did men I get in trouble when this would be the case.
> - Reed plate thickness: has to be about the same as max amplitude of
> respective reed's travel. Thicker/thinner will reduce volume somewhat,
> not a whole lot.
Agree!
>
>
> - Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant woods,
> reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the middle
> piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
> maple/oak/mahogany. Top of the reed block is varnished for the same
> reason exterior of say violin is: to make it resistant to dirt/sweat.
> Inside is not as it will affect resonant qualities of wood(again, just
> as violins and other string instruments).
Nothing to add, it shows me that you also believe that wood add to the
sound quality.
And it has some relevance what wood is used.
>
> - Reed leathers are very important. Need to be thin enough, fluffy :)
> toward the reed plate, yet responsive and springy. Calfskin and
> lambskin are used.
>Larger leathers will have boosters:
Agee!
>Russians use
> strips cut out of 35mm photo film, Italians use thin strips cut out of
> stainless shim stock (0.0015")
I use similar material.
>
> - There's pronounced difference in sound of PA and large pro CBAs (62
> notes). Reason: CBAs are stuffed to where almost no space for sound to
> bounce around is left inside. PA's have more space inside (RH has
> almost 30% less space occupied).
OK, this sure is one aspect biside a lot of others one could list what
makes a difference if one compares PA and CBAs.
>
> - More on reeds: Italians grind and stamp them out using machines.
> Russians, in pro instruments, do everything by hand. Pros and cons to
> both methods, but pro Russian bayans have no equals.
Yes you are lucky if you find a Instrument with truly handmade reeds today.
But if it is correct (Harmonicas in Loony supplies reed plates to
Russian and Italian factory’s) some of the bayans today already use long
plates made by electroeroding technology.
Harmonicas in Loony Czech uses parallel slots without tapered Angle on
this long plates.
I Have visited a Factory in Austria with absolute new machinery (Spark
eroding) the machinery is capable to produce also this Slots with
tapered Angles.
The can produce nearly every 3 dimensional part as long as it is metal.
And the just need a CAD drawing for the part.
Reed tongs are also not a problem to produce.
Don’t know how it would work to cut the right profile.
Did not ask abut the profile.
The problem is only the price for small orders.
The factory mainly produces parts for aircraft, but also for every kind
of modern Machinery as parts for pounding machinery in the electronic
sector.
Would be pleased to get a replay from you, Rashid I think you could
relay add a lot more of info. And you know abut what you are talking!
PS:
In the past we had a discussion abut the material titanium for use as on
frames or tongues, I did hope to get a replay on this from you as well,
perhaps you never did see the question pointed to you.
Kind regards, Johann Pascher
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ras...@home.net
johann Pascher wrote:
>
> New for me, is literature in german or englisch language available?
> Or could you supply us with some more info on this?
None that I am aware of, outside of "the" German book. I have
some Russian books on subject.
>
> >
> > Unfortunately there's not a whole lot on the subject on the
Internet
> >
> > - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with
uniform
> > thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and
shapes
> > for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> > Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases),
> Agree!
> > Russian vary: some
> > masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> > Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal
(Jupiter,
> > AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
>
> would like to hear more info on this, if possible!
Trapesoidal shapes are required to reduce stiffness of the reed toward
the
tip. These are very easy to do when press-stamping them out (as
Western
Europe manufacturers's proven over last century). EMD (spark erosion)
allows
to achieve any shape with utmost accuracy with ease.
Russians mostly milled the plates in the beginning (and still do for
lower
notes), but also press out higher notes. It is very hard and time
consuming to
mill trapesoidal shapes.
And like I said, still there're Russian-made instruments that only use
rectangular
reeds.
> >
> > - Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
> > Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
> > Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
> > StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
> > temper as regular blue spring steel.
> New to mee!
When I said harmonicas I meant ones that are played with one's breath.
Moisture would ruin blue steel - silicon/phosphor bronze doesn't rust.
> > - Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant
woods,
> > reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the
middle
> > piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
> > maple/oak/mahogany. Top of the reed block is varnished for the
same
> > reason exterior of say violin is: to make it resistant to
dirt/sweat.
> > Inside is not as it will affect resonant qualities of wood(again,
just
> > as violins and other string instruments).
> Nothing to add, it shows me that you also believe that wood add to
the
> sound quality.
> And it has some relevance what wood is used.
To some extent, but it is not The Main Factor :). I'd go so as to say
there is NO single thing responsible to just how an instrument sounds.
Quality of reeds is most paramount, but still it is a number of factors
that contribute to the sound.
> >
> > - Reed leathers are very important. Need to be thin enough, fluffy
:)
> > toward the reed plate, yet responsive and springy. Calfskin and
> > lambskin are used.
> >Larger leathers will have boosters:
> Agee!
> >Russians use
> > strips cut out of 35mm photo film, Italians use thin strips cut
out of
> > stainless shim stock (0.0015")
> I use similar material.
Of course, for quite some time (since 60-ies) some (German, Italian)
instruments come with plastic leathers (2-3 staggered layers of
Mylar-like 0.001-0.003 plastic). These are most responsive, have
excellent life, don't sag and are fairly air-tight. If someone knows
just what is the name/source of material used, I'd greatly appreciate
that.
> >
> > - There's pronounced difference in sound of PA and large pro CBAs
(62
> > notes). Reason: CBAs are stuffed to where almost no space for
sound to
> > bounce around is left inside. PA's have more space inside (RH has
> > almost 30% less space occupied).
> OK, this sure is one aspect biside a lot of others one could list
what
> makes a difference if one compares PA and CBAs.
I'd say it is most important. I know for a fact that absolutely
identical
materials/technologies are used at a factory to make both CBA and PA,
yet
sounds IS different - "boomier" in case of PA.
> >
> > - More on reeds: Italians grind and stamp them out using machines.
> > Russians, in pro instruments, do everything by hand. Pros and cons
to
> > both methods, but pro Russian bayans have no equals.
>
> Yes you are lucky if you find a Instrument with truly handmade reeds
today.
>
> But if it is correct (Harmonicas in Loony supplies reed plates to
> Russian and Italian factory's) some of the bayans today already use
long
> plates made by electroeroding technology.
I am not aware of Russians buying pre-made plates elsewhere,but can
totally
see why one would do that, if price is right. Making these by hand is
EXTREMELY laborious. Milling or stamping out cut by cut, then filing it
to get to get the
tapers. 1/2 man-day a plate easily .
>
> Harmonicas in Loony Czech uses parallel slots without tapered Angle
on
> this long plates.
>
> I Have visited a Factory in Austria with absolute new machinery
(Spark
> eroding) the machinery is capable to produce also this Slots with
> tapered Angles.
> The can produce nearly every 3 dimensional part as long as it is
metal.
> And the just need a CAD drawing for the part.
> Reed tongs are also not a problem to produce.
Benefits of CNC machining (be it abrasive jet, EDM, or CNC mill) are so
many ... Unfortunately the subject is rather undeveloped in Russia
(both purchasing and support of this type of machinery) thus still most
of it is done by hand.
I think Louny factory has a unique opp to become supplier to Russian
factories,
mainly becasue of lower labor cost. Quality, from what I've seen, is
excellent.
>
> Would be pleased to get a replay from you, Rashid I think you could
> relay add a lot more of info. And you know abut what you are talking!
>
> PS:
> In the past we had a discussion abut the material titanium for use as
on
> frames or tongues, I did hope to get a replay on this from you as
well,
> perhaps you never did see the question pointed to you.
It was use of titanium for reed tongues, for piccolos only. I tried it,
but
didn't like how titanium files, very different from blue steel.
Assuming
it is done by machine, may be there's a benefit to it. Again, the claim
came
from the same guy in Netherlands, that came up with HOP
(high-output-piccolo reed)
idea.
Russians did use titanium in top instruments, but in altogether
different way.
Mostly to reduce LH weight. Remember, titanium is heavier than
alluminum. Thus
use of it for reed plates won't reduce weight (will increase it rather
significantly) nor will it add to the sound qualities in any noticeable
fashion.
I personally don't beleive there's a magic bullet to improving sound
qualities of instrument. Not only that, quite a number of Russian made
instruments exist that have simply unbeleivable sound. In Western
Europe, 2 top instruments are: Veiko Ahvenainen's Bayan by Yuri
Volkovich (I'd die :) to be able to take a look at that one !!!), Mika
Vaarynen's bayan (Jupiter with Arapov's reeds).
Russian players have many more of greatest instruments.
Unfortunately, top players put quite a wear/tear on instruments and
while sound will stay forever, mechanics deteriorate and players have
to replace the instruments . Typically reeds get replaced too and old
ones are lost. Sometimes old instruments get refurbished and end up
with students etc.
Theodore Kloba
Thanks for this great post. I will definitely save a copy for reference.
I have, over time, looked at many websites from reed manufacturers, and I was
immediately impressed with Harmonikas Louny because they *quantified* their
manufacturing process in comparing the different grades of their product; they
list dimensional tolerances, etc. so the buyer knows just what makes their more
expensive reeds better than the cheaper ones. It's a shame I haven't seen that
from the Italian makers.
I have done a bit of empirical research with respect to Chemnitzers &
Bandonions, the results of which I will interject into my comments below...
ras...@home.net wrote:
> ... optimal reed size were
> calculated and published about same time.
Optimal in what way? Stiffness (as you explain below) must be a compromise
between volume and responsiveness.
Tone color is obviously a factor, but it is highly subjective. It would be nice
to see the relationships between reed dimensions and qualitative descriptions of
tone color.
> - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
> thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
> for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases), Russian vary: some
> masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
> AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
All the long-plate reeds I've seen in chemnitzers and bandonions are
rectangular; the same goes for individual-plate reeds in Arno Arnold instruments.
Italian-made individual-plate reeds in Chemnitzers are trapezoidal.
> Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
I did a survey of the long-plate treble reeds in an old chemnitzer, which were
made by Dix (a precursor company to Harmonikas Louny). The ratio was between
5.7:1 and 8.7:1, with a mean of about 7.4:1. I didn't include the picolo reeds,
which would have brought the average down.
On a more modern instrument made by Star in 2000, with long plate reeds, the
ratio was between 6.2:1 and 9.8:1, with a mean of 8.6:1
> - What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
> the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
> as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
> tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
> will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
> and overall effort to play.
This was one of the parameters mentioned on the Harmonikas Louny website.
--
Theodore M. Kloba * hey...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/
Theodore Kloba
Thanks for this great post. I will definitely save a copy for reference.
I have, over time, looked at many websites from reed manufacturers, and I was
immediately impressed with Harmonikas Louny because they *quantified* their
manufacturing process in comparing the different grades of their product; they
list dimensional tolerances, etc. so the buyer knows just what makes their more
expensive reeds better than the cheaper ones. It's a shame I haven't seen that
from the Italian makers.
I have done a bit of empirical research with respect to reeds in Chemnitzers &
Bandonions, the results of which I will interject into my comments below...
ras...@home.net wrote:
> ... optimal reed size were
> calculated and published about same time.
Optimal in what way?
Stiffness (as you explain below) must be a compromise between volume and
responsiveness.
Tone color is obviously a factor, but it is highly subjective. It would be nice
to see the relationships between reed dimensions and qualitative descriptions of
tone color.
I personally prefer the tone color in Russian instruments, even my old (ca.
1930?) Ganinskaya Garmoshka, but many people must like the sound in Italian
instruments, or they wouldn't sell. I think instrument manufacturers would
serve themselves well to go beyond the "good-better-best" classification of
products and include descriptions of the tone. Especially with the
consolidation of manufacturers into just a few, the full range of possibilities
in character is not being explored.
> - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
> thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
> for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases), Russian vary: some
> masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
> AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
All the long-plate reeds I've seen in chemnitzers and bandonions are
rectangular; the same goes for individual-plate reeds in Arno Arnold instruments.
Italian-made individual-plate reeds in Chemnitzers are trapezoidal.
> Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
I did a survey of the long-plate treble reeds in an old chemnitzer, which were
made by Dix (a precursor company to Harmonikas Louny). The ratio was between
5.7:1 and 8.7:1, with a mean of about 7.4:1. I didn't include the picolo reeds,
which would have brought the average down.
On a more modern instrument made by Star in 2000, with long plate reeds, the
ratio was between 6.2:1 and 9.8:1, with a mean of 8.6:1
> - What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
> the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
> as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
> tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
> will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
> and overall effort to play.
This was one of the parameters mentioned on the Harmonikas Louny website.
Interestingly, their bandoneon reeds have a gap comparable to their best
accordion reeds. Bandoneon reeds are not made in lower grades. Maybe this is
because the reed tongues in general are shorter.
> - Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
> exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
> responsive.
I haven't measured this parameter.
> - Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant woods,
> reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the middle
> piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
> maple/oak/mahogany.
There is no "bottom part" in reed blocks for most long-plate chemnitzers &
bandonions. I think this fact accounts for some of their tone quality, since
there is less distance between the reed chamber and the outside.
> Top of the reed block is varnished for the same
> reason exterior of say violin is: to make it resistant to dirt/sweat.
> Inside is not as it will affect resonant qualities of wood (again, just
> as violins and other string instruments).
The gasket material on the valve pallets is another factor in the preservation
of tone. I have seen lower-quality instruments that have thick felt and
leather, I suppose to compensate for irregularities in the pallets' surface and
for misalignment with the action board. This greatly reduces upper harmonics.
> Larger leathers will have boosters: Russians use
> strips cut out of 35mm photo film, Italians use thin strips cut out of
> stainless shim stock (0.0015")
My old Ganinskaya has steel boosters. They appear to be original.
> - There's pronounced difference in sound of PA and large pro CBAs (62
> notes). Reason: CBAs are stuffed to where almost no space for sound to
> bounce around is left inside. PA's have more space inside (RH has
> almost 30% less space occupied).
I can see how that would affect the sound inside the instrument, but how does it
affect the sound outside?
Theodore Kloba
> I'd say it is most important. I know for a fact that absolutely
> identical materials/technologies are used at a factory to make both CBA and PA,
> yet sounds IS different - "boomier" in case of PA.
Do you mean that the requirement for more notes on a CBA forces builders to use
smaller blocks and chambers? That would certainly alter the tone. Chemnitzers
& bandonions have similar space constraints. Their treble blocks have chambers
that are just enough to accomodate the vibration of the reed tongue.
> In Western
> Europe, 2 top instruments are: Veiko Ahvenainen's Bayan by Yuri
> Volkovich (I'd die :) to be able to take a look at that one !!!), Mika
> Vaarynen's bayan (Jupiter with Arapov's reeds).
Funny that you consider two Finnish musicians to be from "Western Europe,"
although Mika Väyrynen has studied in France, and I'm sure both have played
farther west... BTW, M. V. also plays bandoneon.
ras...@home.net
About pro CBAs being so stuffed on the inside: the main reason indeed
is sheer reed count, that's 30% higher, in RH , compared to full size
PA.64 x 4 x 2 = 512 reeds that need to go into
RH alone, in case of 64 note 4 voice instrument.
About "optimal" reed sizes: guess an attempt was made to keep sizes
reasonable,
while having pleasing sound and good playability of the reeds.
Italians standardised on reeds ( sizes) to effect where reeds almost
universally are not made at the same factories where instruments are
made. This was never the case and still is not the case in Russia. Not
sure which method is better :), but Russian way gives true Masters of
trade a way to make true masterpieces.
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: rashidk@h...
> Really-From: rashidk@h...
Rashid: I've noted all your past and present comments with
interest. Much of what you say is true and I'm happy that Russia
has always been to front-runner in making reeds.
Ever since I was taught by the Itaians in the making of 'true'
handmade reeds, I have sought the secrets in design and
specifications of other nations and the reasons for them. Since
the only means I know is making reeds by hand, and believe this
to be the very best, I must agree that Russia is foremost in reed
making as they place quality over quantity and 'hand' over
machinery.
The 'optimal' was critical for many reasons. The reed swing, and
block chamber size, and the overal housing became careful
considerations. I saw where you mentioned the 16th and last
Vukovitch bayan owned by Veikko. I examined that instrument
when he and I were together about ten or twelve years ago. A
very very fine instrument. Veikko had a case made for the left
hand only and carries that with him everywhere. It is ingenius.
Indeed that Russian made reeds have a sparking color is not by
chance but by choice. The lateral sides contribute greatly to this
quality in addition to the optimal stiffness of the steel. While this
supplies that quality, the negative side is that this lateral design
allows for easy breakage of the reed tongue as the support is
missing. German accordion can be found to employ this same
look, but there's reflect an even sectional thickness and which
defeats the handsome quality of the Russian reed. It is because
of the breakage that caused the Italians to place the trapezoid
design to use and which developed a more 'flutey' sound.
In my many years of working and studying reeds, I have also
experimented with various approaches to give that Russian
quality while at the same time, allow the reed to have strength.
Morbidoni was yet another who made reeds with a pyramid
center the length of the reed tongue. This by all means was a
terrific idea and it did work. However, this lasted only with
Morbidoni as it took much patience and time to work this vital
cross-section equivalent to all reed sizes. I must say that a
reedmaker must make all his reed sets uniform in quality and
sound.
I have found that it is best for the artists to have the highest
quality reeds for the lesser player cannot comprehend their value
and the careful manner in which to perform with them. This is
one reason why there were always three stages of qualities in
accordion: Student line, semi-professional line, and
professional. Today however, it appears that even the beginner
wants the very best and for no good reason. It would be like
having a Porche' right after getting your driving licence
application. It makes no sense to do these things.
Reed design and the specifications that go with it, are certainly
concerns, but only for the technician. The player should be
interested in his playing and whether the accordion performs to
his desire. Eventually, he will progress upward in quality as he
progesses upward in his abilities and agility.
I'm not sure I agree with your observation that the compactness
of chromatic accordions render a lesser 'boom' than piano
keyboard accordions.....because of the internal cavity. I might go
along with the amount of reeds in comparison to housing size.
or the reduction of sound board but I see the reed chamber and
the grille chamber as affecting parties. All this goes without
going into the woods, etc. which also have a direct bearing to
timbre. Againm I enjoyed your discussions.
Steve Navoyosky
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Michael Bell
<URL:mailto:ras...@home.net> wrote:
[snip]
Rashid
I tried to send an email to you, because I sent an attachment with
it, and I think the server cuts attachments off, but the email was
bounced this this measage :-
**************************************************************
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:35:42 +0000
From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer...@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Reply-To: postm...@demon.net
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
To: micha...@michaelbell.demon.co.uk X-Editor: Zap 1.45 (06 Nov 2002),
ZapEmail 0.26 (03 Nov 2002)
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
ras...@home.net
Operation timed out:
retry timeout exceeded
------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------
------ The body of the message is 45617 characters long; only the
first...etc
*******************************************
-: Is there another way of sending gif drawings to you?
Michael Bell
--
Michael Bell
<URL:mailto:hey...@yahoo.com>
[snip]
>
> Funny that you consider two Finnish musicians to be from "Western Europe,"
> although Mika Väyrynen has studied in France, and I'm sure both have played
> farther west...
Have you ever been to Finland? It is most DEFINITELY west European! They
would consider it an insult to say anything else, and so would I, and I am
British, only Ireland and Iceland are further west in Europe
Michael Bell
--
johann Pascher
Hi, Rashid Karimov!
Indeed a nice surprise hearing from you!
Very good information!
I fully can agree with everything, a few things are new for me.
I would like to make some comments between the lines.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: ras...@home.net
> Really-From: ras...@home.net
>
> Saw some interest expressed here about reeds. Here are some of what I
> know.
>
> - Serious literature on subject: Germans did some formal studies,
> Russians are not so distant second. USSR had a whole ResearchInstitute
> dedicate to study of music instruments. For example, they did studies
> on precise size of resonators as early as 1934 which was then re-used
> by all of the (state-owned) factories. Also, optimal reed size were
> calculated and published about same time.
New for me, is literature in german or englisch language available?
Or could you supply us with some more info on this?
>
> Unfortunately there's not a whole lot on the subject on the Internet
>
> - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
> thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
> for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases),
Agree!
> Russian vary: some
> masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
> AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
would like to hear more info on this, if possible!
>
> - Reed profile (thickness): too stiff is bad (low sound production,
> won't play @ piano, sound is too dull) and too soft is bad as well
> (will tend to shut off @ forte & fortissimo, tone will bend too much
> (get lower @ progressively higher volumes). That's all there's to it,
> the right profile is somewhere in between :).
Agree!
>
> Profile must be such that reeed doesn't bend @ the root,instead may be
> 1/8th of the reed's length away from it. The "bending point" will get
> closer to the tip as pitch increases. Highest pitch reeds will bend
> 5/8th of length toward the tip.
>
> Highest notes will be as thin as 0.002 of inch @ the tip.Thickness for
> higher notes will be fairly uniform from bend point to the tip.
>
> For lower notes it won't be the case - one can safely have tip thicker
> than @ bend point, to have lower tone. And of course, for lowest notes
> weight is soldered @ the tip. Brass is used the most, being some of
> heavier metals.
>
> Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
Agee, could not explain it better!
>
> - What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
> the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
> as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
> tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
> will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
> and overall effort to play.
Agree, I tried to explain this earlier here in the news group, but it
seamed I could not put it into right words.
>
> Problem with best instruments: due to extremely close tolerances, some
> reeds will jam/buzz @ too low/too high temperatures.
Agree!
>
>
> - Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
> Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
> Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
> StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
> temper as regular blue spring steel.
New to mee!
>
> - Reed plates: Russians use aircraft-grade alluminum (150 Brinnell, US
> equivalent: 7072 alloy). Italians use some weird alloy (scratch a reed
> plate and you will see brassy collor emerge for higher reeds,for lower
> ones it seem to be some sort of 6xxx aluminum, in T4 or thereabout).
I always ware a bit puzzled about the type of aluminium is used, I
noticed that especially on helicon frames the weight ware different if
one compared different makes.
>
> - Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
> exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
> responsive.
Ok, that is a point I really would like to talk abut it a bit more!
I have made tests with different reeds from Italy and Czech and Germany.
And I came to the same opinion.
I confronted Mr. Tittelbach from Harmonicas Loony with the results and
he meant the opposite is true.
More test come up with modern hand finished reed sets from all major
factory’s in the future.
So you say that real Russian bayan reed plates use reed plate cuts with
tapered Angle 4-5° , so that the opening gets wider, correct?
Steve Navoyosky, did men I get in trouble when this would be the case.
> - Reed plate thickness: has to be about the same as max amplitude of
> respective reed's travel. Thicker/thinner will reduce volume somewhat,
> not a whole lot.
Agree!
>
>
> - Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant woods,
> reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the middle
> piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
> maple/oak/mahogany. Top of the reed block is varnished for the same
> reason exterior of say violin is: to make it resistant to dirt/sweat.
> Inside is not as it will affect resonant qualities of wood(again, just
> as violins and other string instruments).
Nothing to add, it shows me that you also believe that wood add to the
sound quality.
And it has some relevance what wood is used.
>
> - Reed leathers are very important. Need to be thin enough, fluffy :)
> toward the reed plate, yet responsive and springy. Calfskin and
> lambskin are used.
>Larger leathers will have boosters:
Agee!
>Russians use
> strips cut out of 35mm photo film, Italians use thin strips cut out of
> stainless shim stock (0.0015")
I use similar material.
>
> - There's pronounced difference in sound of PA and large pro CBAs (62
> notes). Reason: CBAs are stuffed to where almost no space for sound to
> bounce around is left inside. PA's have more space inside (RH has
> almost 30% less space occupied).
OK, this sure is one aspect biside a lot of others one could list what
makes a difference if one compares PA and CBAs.
>
> - More on reeds: Italians grind and stamp them out using machines.
> Russians, in pro instruments, do everything by hand. Pros and cons to
> both methods, but pro Russian bayans have no equals.
Yes you are lucky if you find a Instrument with truly handmade reeds today.
But if it is correct (Harmonicas in Loony supplies reed plates to
Russian and Italian factory’s) some of the bayans today already use long
plates made by electroeroding technology.
Harmonicas in Loony Czech uses parallel slots without tapered Angle on
this long plates.
I Have visited a Factory in Austria with absolute new machinery (Spark
eroding) the machinery is capable to produce also this Slots with
tapered Angles.
The can produce nearly every 3 dimensional part as long as it is metal.
And the just need a CAD drawing for the part.
Reed tongs are also not a problem to produce.
Don’t know how it would work to cut the right profile.
Did not ask abut the profile.
The problem is only the price for small orders.
The factory mainly produces parts for aircraft, but also for every kind
of modern Machinery as parts for pounding machinery in the electronic
sector.
Would be pleased to get a replay from you, Rashid I think you could
relay add a lot more of info. And you know abut what you are talking!
PS:
In the past we had a discussion abut the material titanium for use as on
frames or tongues, I did hope to get a replay on this from you as well,
perhaps you never did see the question pointed to you.
Kind regards, Johann Pascher
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johann Pascher
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
Hi, Steve Navoyosky!
“I've noted all your past and present comments with
Interest.”
I would like to add I cant say it better all what you could contribute
ware appreciated from my side!
Seams my last post to this subject did not come trough.
It is very good to hear your comment!
You are defiantly the most experienced reed maker in this group.
And you are a very experienced musician, so I really treasure your comments.
So a lot of your thoughts are new to me!
On the other hand in everything where I have some experience as well I
can very good go along with you and your few points!
You write:
> I'm not sure I agree with your observation that the compactness
> of chromatic accordions render a lesser 'boom' than piano
> keyboard accordions.....because of the internal cavity.
My be I did not read the fist comment from Rashid careful enough but on
this I have also my doubts. I have made a diatonic box the last year and
the space inside is squeezed up much more as it is in any other box. If
the bellows is closed the distance between reeds and bellow are just
enough to have room for the moving reed tongues and the bending of the
bellows.
So you would not find more distance as maximal one cm.
The reason is, in a very small box I have put 8/5 big double helicon
reeds. And a lot of chords with 30 reeds plates and on the treble side
104 reed plates.
And I can’t see that it make a lot of difference if the inside is sift
up or not.
Since in most cases the bellows is open to some extent the volume is
always more as in closed condition. And then, I rather would think a
special volume has some effect on certain frequencies as a sort of
cavity resonator. So it is hard to charge what sounds better.
Since I have rather small boxes to compare I have the impression, for my
test more cavity (empty room) inside is better. But this is all very vague.
I would be very interested to here more abut:
Rashids first post:
Ø - Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
> exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
> responsive.
Ø My answer to it did not come through until now:
Ok, that is a point I really would like to talk abut it a bit more!
I have made tests with different reeds from Italy and Czech and Germany.
And I came to the same opinion.
I confronted Mr. Dittelbach from Harmonicas Loony with the results and
he meant the opposite is true.
More test come up with modern hand finished reed sets from all major
factory’s in the future.
So you say that real Russian bayan reed plates use reed plate cuts with
tapered Angle 4-5° , so that the opening gets wider, correct?
Steve Navoyosky, did men I get in trouble when this would be the case.
Kind regards, Johann Pascher
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johann Pascher
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
Also very good to here your comments!
I also will add between the lines.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
> Really-From: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
>
> Rashid,
>
> Thanks for this great post. I will definitely save a copy for reference.
> I have, over time, looked at many websites from reed manufacturers, and
> I was
> immediately impressed with Harmonikas Louny because they *quantified*
their
> manufacturing process in comparing the different grades of their
> product; they
> list dimensional tolerances, etc. so the buyer knows just what makes
> their more
> expensive reeds better than the cheaper ones. It's a shame I haven't
> seen that
> from the Italian makers.
Yes, I also can also say the same!
I can also see the few point of the Italian reed makers.
Measurable standards would be appreciated from my few points as well.
I have tried to measure objective with technical equipment the sound
quality, talk reaction and so on.
And the outcome of it is that or technical equipment is not relay
suitable to compare and give charts, the best chargement is the ear and
the experienced musician him self.
Still a few facts could be some help like gap distance and general
dimensions.
>
> > - About optimal reed shape. Ideally it'd be rectangular, with uniform
> > thickness profiles. In reality, profiles are rather complex and shapes
> > for higher-reeds tend to be trapezoidal, to reduce reed stiffness.
> > Italian reeds are all trapesoidal ('cept bases), Russian vary: some
> > masters have them all absolutely rectangular (Tula - Mir, Yasnaya
> > Polyana instruments), some do higher reeds more trapesoidal (Jupiter,
> > AKKO) (still much less so than Italians)
>
> All the long-plate reeds I've seen in chemnitzers and bandonions are
> rectangular; the same goes for individual-plate reeds in Arno Arnold
> instruments.
>
> Italian-made individual-plate reeds in Chemnitzers are trapezoidal.
>
> > Reed Width to Lenght ratio is typically 8:1 to 10:1
>
> I did a survey of the long-plate treble reeds in an old chemnitzer,
> which were
> made by Dix (a precursor company to Harmonikas Louny).
Quit correct, Loony and Klingenthal are very close locally Klingenthal
is in Germany and Loony is in Czech republic.
After the “DIX” factory ware closed down some of the machinery fond its
way to Loony even some know how may have been transferred through
skilled workman who stared to work at Loony. Eventually the machinery
ware replace trough new ones.
In Klingenthal there is still a small factory producing some types of reeds.
But this cant is compared to the amount of reeds that ware made in old days.
In Klingenthal the quality is relative low the only produce machine
reeds the supply dimensions on the reeds as the factory in Loony douse
but not on the web.
If someone want to know I could photocopy the paper sheets.
In Klingenthal is still the Harmonica Factory and the produce brass
reeds for Harmonicas made in single plates or single reeds brass for
other wind instruments.
The use also the DIX technology all with rectangle tongues.
Singe brass reeds can be ordered there. But the range of tons is very
narrow.
Only tons that are used on Harmonicas are available.
And the reds are all single so on needs two reeds one for push and one
for pull.
Highest quality is with 0,003 mm gap.
>The ratio was
> between
> 5.7:1 and 8.7:1, with a mean of about 7.4:1. I didn't include the
> picolo reeds,
> which would have brought the average down.
>
> On a more modern instrument made by Star in 2000, with long plate
reeds, the
> ratio was between 6.2:1 and 9.8:1, with a mean of 8.6:1
Nice info!
>
> > - What is ABSOLUTELY imporant is the space/gap beetween the reed and
> > the cut in the reed plate. Best hand-made reeds will have gap as small
> > as 0.02 of mm. Smaller gap means lesser effort to play, MUCH reacher
> > tone. For example, when gap goes from .03mm to .05, HALF of harmonics
> > will disappear ! Result: flatter and duller sound, will take more air
> > and overall effort to play.
>
> This was one of the parameters mentioned on the Harmonikas Louny website.
> Interestingly, their bandoneon reeds have a gap comparable to their best
> accordion reeds. Bandoneon reeds are not made in lower grades. Maybe
> this is
> because the reed tongues in general are shorter.
I think the main reason is because the use eroding (spark eroding
technologies).
On the other hand I have read that for bandoneons the gap should be
wider to get the right sound. As Rashid also stated that overtones get
less with bigger gaps this my be wanted on Bandoneons.
>
> > - Reed plate cuts are tapered so that the opening get wider toward the
> > exit side of the plate. Angle: 4-5 degrees. It makes reed more
> > responsive.
>
> I haven't measured this parameter.
I did, he is correct, modern Italian reeds do have this tapered slot!
>
> > - Reed blocks: Sitka spruce or white pine (two of most resonant woods,
> > reasonably widespread and easy to work with) is used for the middle
> > piece. Separators: spruce, oak or mapple. Bottom part: hardwood,
> > maple/oak/mahogany.
>
> There is no "bottom part" in reed blocks for most long-plate
chemnitzers &
> bandonions. I think this fact accounts for some of their tone quality,
> since
> there is less distance between the reed chamber and the outside.
Yes, especially on the high tones you get more volume and the resonance
of the chamber gets not in a critical state.
And the sound character changes quit much.
Ø ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best regards, Johann
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J. Coon
upload them to the files section of yahoogroups
use...@d-and-d.com wrote:
>
>
> *******************************************
>
> -: Is there another way of sending gif drawings to you?
>
> Michael Bell
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J. Coon
johann Pascher wrote:
> Hi, Rashid Karimov!
>
>
>>- Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
>>Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
>>Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
>>StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
>>temper as regular blue spring steel.
>
> New to me!
>
I may be wrong, but the color of the spring steel depends on the the
bluing or browning method used, not the tempring method. Shotgun and
rifle barrels can be either blued or browned, but blueing is most
popular it seems. One method of blueing or browning is to brush on an
acid solution and let the metal rust in a controled environment. The
rust is polished off and the result is a blue or brown coating that
protects the metal. There are other methods too.
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ras...@home.net
I am really facinated with Volkovich's instruments. Unfortunately I
never
was lucky enough to get close to one. Can you talk a bit about what
you remember about #16 - as in what was in it that suprised you and/or
was different from what you saw in other instruments ?
About reed profiles in #16 - r u saying there were not flat, but had
more
like mountain ridges running the length of the reeds. In other words,
the
side were thinner compared to the middle of it ? I never seen anything
like
this ....
I feel we would've had even better instrument if masters in exUSSR had
access to
what available to us in US. I mean better tools (a simple bandsaw
would be a godsend ... even today it is not used, some make their own
files , etc), quality hardwoods (true Sitka Spruce is not used, it is
mostly
White Pine) including exotic ones. Having something like McMaster's
whole
inventory @ Volkovich's or Kolchin's disposal ... but then again, even
w/o any
of it they made true masterpieces.
About reeds breaking : I feel with ISO9000 steels of today, pure and
uniform as they
come, it is no longer a problem. I do know that some older Russian reed
steel had issues.
johann Pascher
Hi, J. Coon!
Your quotes are made on original text form Rashid.
New to me is that (RC 48-52).Steel ware used from StPeterburgh steel
factory on old Bajans.
As far as I know the colour is not a true indices of the tempering
method used on the steel.
The colour can vary.
But as I understand it may well be an indices of origin because no one
makes a lot of effort to copy appearance of steel for reeds and the
factories did have the same technologies over some time so the colour
me be some subjective indices of origin.
Also it is easy to temper the single reed tongues after the are cut from
a wider steel tape so you will see a blue age on the lateral age oft the
foot even the are not cut from an narrow steel tape.
So you see there many well have been methods to cheat (lie) the
customers because the did just look at the appearance of reeds.
If one is an experienced musician one knows anyway without opening the
box how good the reeds are. This all came abut because inexperienced
beginners seek to by best quality reeds and the can be cheated.
An other example is that one can bay reed frames all with nice eloxal
surface any colour you want.
Cagnoni & C.S.p.a. Sells Helicon reeds with black colour reed frames.
Best regards, Johann
J. Coon schrieb:
>
>
> johann Pascher wrote:
>
> > Hi, Rashid Karimov!
> >
> >
> >>- Reed material is always blue-tempered spring steel (RC 48-52).
> >>Phosphorous bronze is used in harmonicas, as it is rust resistant.
> >>Older Russian instruments will have brownish-hue steel (came from
> >>StPeterburgh steel factory, no longer available) - but it is same
> >>temper as regular blue spring steel.
> >
> > New to me!
> >
>
>
> I may be wrong, but the color of the spring steel depends on the the
> bluing or browning method used, not the tempring method. Shotgun and
> rifle barrels can be either blued or browned, but blueing is most
> popular it seems. One method of blueing or browning is to brush on an
> acid solution and let the metal rust in a controled environment. The
> rust is polished off and the result is a blue or brown coating that
> protects the metal. There are other methods too.
>
>
>
>
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Theodore Kloba
> About pro CBAs being so stuffed on the inside: the main reason indeed
> is sheer reed count, that's 30% higher, in RH , compared to full size
> PA.64 x 4 x 2 = 512 reeds that need to go into
> RH alone, in case of 64 note 4 voice instrument.
I guess my question was whether the higher reed count forces the reed block
chambers to be smaller on a CBA than on a PA.
> About "optimal" reed sizes: guess an attempt was made to keep sizes
> reasonable,
> while having pleasing sound and good playability of the reeds.
The tricky word there is "pleasing."
> Italians standardised on reeds ( sizes) to effect where reeds almost
> universally are not made at the same factories where instruments are
> made. This was never the case and still is not the case in Russia. Not
> sure which method is better :), but Russian way gives true Masters of
> trade a way to make true masterpieces.
I'm sure the "Italian method" is cheaper; that's probably the only
generalization that can be made.
Theodore Kloba
> Have you ever been to Finland? It is most DEFINITELY west European!
No, I haven't been there; I was thinking strictly in terms of physical
geography, which would call Finland North or maybe East Europe. I do understand
that culturally Finland is more aligned with the "West" than the "East."
Then again, in strict Geographic terms, I don't believe there is a "Europe" or
"Asia." Finland is in northwest Eurasia.
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: rashidk@h...
> Really-From: rashidk@h...
>
> Steve,
>
> I am really facinated with Volkovich's instruments. Unfortunately I
> never
> was lucky enough to get close to one. Can you talk a bit about what
> you remember about #16 - as in what was in it that suprised you and/or
> was different from what you saw in other instruments ?
Hello Rashid:
The workmanship was my main observation. All that I ever heard about the
time spent in making his bayans was true. I viewed that instrument with the
utmost respect. It reeked of quality. Construction-wise, it was the same
designs, but the workmanship was superb. It's no wonder he spent so much
time on one instruemnt and why he only was able to make 16 in his lifetime. I
believe it took a year or more to make #16. Many of the others took several
years. I understand he fashioned each instrument according to the needs of
the prospective player and their wishes.
In my other observations, I noticed that tone quality was exceptional and that
the treble and bass sections were in balance. In fact they were balanced in
any register used.
The instrument was light weight due to the titanium used throughout.
I saw that the keyboard was placed differently on the housing--a questionable
location--and at an angle making the hand work much easier, according to
Veikko.
But I took particular attention to the reeds as being exqusite in their making in
order to achieve their brilliance and sparkle. One look told me what they were
going sound like because of the design first...and the workmanship second.
There was a profile to gain the utmost in sensitivity, When I spoke of the
raised center, it was not of #16 but a very great design by the Italian,
Morbidoni. This ribbing most certainly overcomes many problems. It is not
done today as naturally, this was a handmade process, and mass production
has taken over as very few appreciate spending funds to have the very best.
This is why I was happy to hear that Russia continues in doing high quality
standards and capable of making 'true' handmade reeds. Now there was
another process done to try and match that design...and by grinding belts that
would cause an arc. once again, higher in the center and lower at the edges.
These are very good too. But what really makes the harmonic quality is the
stiffness (hardness) and the Rockwell scale and the number used. I will have
to think about those numbers that we used before I say something that is
misleading. Yes, the older Russian instruments had reed breakage difficulties
and I attribute that to the wrong hardness used as well as the design at that
time.
I have no idea where he is now, but most certainly, a fellow by the name of
Eugene Cherneshka (americanized) or Chernichka (YEPHNYKA) had a
fantastic sounding instrument that was commercially made, but what reed
quality. Talk about sparkle! I lost track of him.
Anyhow, Veikko is the only "western" owner of a Vulkovitch bayan, and his
last one. All the rest are in Russia. I have no idea who owns them...unless the
government. Kasakov surely received the first for he was the first to use the
prototype.
I hope I have answered your concerns.
Steve Navoyosky
>
> About reed profiles in #16 - r u saying there were not flat, but had
> more
> like mountain ridges running the length of the reeds. In other words,
> the
> side were thinner compared to the middle of it ? I never seen anything
> like
> this ....
>
> I feel we would've had even better instrument if masters in exUSSR had
> access to
> what available to us in US. I mean better tools (a simple bandsaw
> would be a godsend ... even today it is not used, some make their own
> files , etc), quality hardwoods (true Sitka Spruce is not used, it is
> mostly
> White Pine) including exotic ones. Having something like McMaster's
> whole
> inventory @ Volkovich's or Kolchin's disposal ... but then again, even
> w/o any
> of it they made true masterpieces.
>
> About reeds breaking : I feel with ISO9000 steels of today, pure and
> uniform as they
> come, it is no longer a problem. I do know that some older Russian reed
> steel had issues.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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tto...@ailr.com
Thanks for the very interesting and informative post. We've been
hoping for such a post for quite a while now.
> For example, they did studies
>on precise size of resonators as early as 1934 - which was then
re-used
>by all of the (state-owned) factories.
What "resonators" do you mean? Are you talking about the reed block
cavities themselves?
Best regards,
Tom
tto...@ailr.com
with HOP (high-output-piccolo reed) idea.
Rashid, I recently tried finding information about this reed on the
web, but failed. I do remember that there was a patent issued. Can
you give me any more information on how this worked, or where to find
out? Was this approach successful?
Best regards,
Tom
Michael Bell
<URL:mailto:hey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Michael Bell wrote:
> > Have you ever been to Finland? It is most DEFINITELY west European!
>
> No, I haven't been there; I was thinking strictly in terms of physical
> geography, which would call Finland North or maybe East Europe. I do
> understand that culturally Finland is more aligned with the "West" than
> the "East."
>
> Then again, in strict Geographic terms, I don't believe there is a "Europe"
> or "Asia." Finland is in northwest Eurasia.
To be less argumentative about it, it Finland is a Scandinavian
country, in Norwegian-Swedish-Danish (not really separate languages) the word
for "Scandinavia" is "Norden", literally "The North" and until about 1900
that was the word used in English too. The Finnish word is "Pohjo", also
meaning "The North". I think of it as a purely Scandinavian country.
The main musical influence is Swedish and German music, including
protestant church music. The most interesting free reed instruments is the
harmonium, undoubtedly originally a church instrument, but now also used as a
folk instrument, sometimes playing VERY unchurchy music! It is a long box,
sometimes with handles at both ends, sometimes only one central handle for
carrying it about. The top opens up to reveal a keyboard, and legs fold down
to stand it on, and there are foot pedals to blow it with. It's quite
popular.
And the accordian is treated as a classical instrument, new music is
written for it as a soloist in front of a string orchestra. A very
interesting nation, culture, and I really must get round to learning the
language to get deeper into it.
Michael Bell
--
Theodore Kloba
Here's a brief article from 1998 when the HOPV was announced:
http://www.accordions.com/index/squ/en_squ_98_11_13.shtml#j
Follow the link within the story and click on the "to special reeds" link to see
the photos & detailed description.
The most important part of the story:
"After the development of the HOPV, I didn't stop researching the piccolo
voices. Lately I find a new material. It is a new alloy. This causes a huge
step forward in the future of the accordion voice but also far-reaching
consequences for the production. Because of a bad ilness and my age (66), I
want to hand over all rights - knowledge and all related things. If you are
interested and eventually want to share or buy, please contact me at:
in...@accordeon.nl"
johann Pascher
Hi, Rashid and Tom!
I am not able to contact you in a private mail please contact me.
Your mail address seams not to be correct.
Would be great if you could answer the privies postings.
I post through Yahoo and that my be the reason way the mails seam to get
to the newsgroup very late.
Do you know more on the type of titanium use on the Russian handmade
reeds in the Vulkovitch bayan?
To you Tom!
>Again, the claim came from the same guy in Netherlands, that came up
> with HOP (high-output-piccolo reed) idea.
Jac Verbone is his name and i have been in private mail contact to him.
He promised to visit me in the summer but he did not show up.
I think he has severe health problems.
He is already retired and I don’t think he continues the work on this
project.
We exchanged a few information’s he did tell quite a few things about
his innovation.
And he conformed my all what I think what will be effected by titanium
reed tongues.
But the main differences on his piccolo reeds are the shape of the frame
on the backside of the tongue.
Was this approach successful?
Yes for piccolo reed the give more volume and more overtones as usual
piccolo reeds.
But this is jast what he tolled me I never did her one.
But he ware in contact with all reed manufactures in Italy and elsewhere.
Not one ware prepared to produce his reeds.
But he showed his sample to them.
Mr Titelbach from Harmonicas Loony Czech republic knows him well.
But Mr. Tittelbach is convinced that good traditional piccolo reeds
would be as good as the HOP.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: tto...@ailr.com
> Really-From: tto...@ailr.com
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ras...@home.net
they
simply used them to calculate the numbers. And of course, thickness of
the
"bottom" piece ("roz^etka in Russian) and size of the reed valve (not
leather, but valve)
opening throw a minute monkey wrench in there, so it has to be adjusted
a bit.
In reality resonant frequencies of such cavities are 3-4 times higher
than those
of the respective reeds, thus there is no danger of them being the same
.
Should it be the case, you'd have a case of 2 tightly coupled resonant
systems
with matching frequencies and it'd cause all kinds of problems.
As such, the width of cavities is fixed to the extent that that there
must be as
many of them as there're number of reed pairs going the length(height)
of the instrument,
on a side of a given reed block.
The depth is fixed in a similar fashion: too wide of a reed blocks
(meaning deeper cav-s) will not fit into the
instrument, too narrow (shallow cav-s) will cause tip of a sounding
reed to touch the wood as it moves inside
of the cavity. Bottom line: lowest notes have deepest cavity (as deep
as width of reed block
will allow for, with middle piece getting paper-thin ), piccolos will
have cavities 1.5-2mm
deep and depth decreases linearly from lowest to highest note, on the
same side of a given
reed block.
stephen_navoyosky
The HOPV process has been nothing new. It can only be used
for the highest reeds and why one would want this reed line to
outshine the others remains to be answered,
Many concepts have been used through the years for resonance
and speaking. Air pressure control was yet another matter
dealing with the situation. While it may appear that reedmakers
are only concerned about reeds, this is not so, for they are (or
used to be) concerned with the block and its affectiveness and
effectiveness. The chamber of each reed must (should) reflect
the proper air pressure to efficiently operate that reed tongue in
relativity to the other reed tongues. Hence the knowledgeable
technician will make his block accordingly....as the reed goes
smaller, so does the chamber depth. This provides for equal
amplitude and for proper amplitude. In the past, the remedy was
to drill a small hole in the piccolo plate to relieve the high
pressure and cause proper speaking of the reed.
As I stated above, the HOPV process is nothing new....only a
re-discovery. Professional clarinet holes can be found to
embrace this same process and most technicians have the
tools to remedy clarinets without the internal countersink.
The ideal maneuver is to make all reed lines equally resonant
between lines and with the line. If this is done, then you have
succeeded in making an instrument whereas all single voice
and coupled voices reflect one combined sound without a line
'standing out' as is the case with most accordion today.
Steve Navoyosky
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stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: rashidk@h...
> Really-From: rashidk@h...
>
> Steve,
>
> thanks for your recollection of #16. It is truly a divine instrument.
>
> One of most prized knowledge of a reed maker is precisely the
ability to create proper tonal characteristics of a reed's sound
through proper reed profile.
>
> Getting reed cut out, filed to fit the frame and produce SOME
sound is easy. All it takes is a bit of patience in filing process.
>
> A given reed can be made to sound at a required frequency in
many ways, each with corresponding tonal qualities.
>
> Here's some of more desired qualities sought in reed's sound:
>
> - be responsive @ piano
> - do not shut off @ fortissimo
> - have velvety sound for middles, awe-inspiring lion-like roar for
> lower notes and brilliant piccolos
> - have as uniform as possible soundn production across the
whole range. this one is HARD. At very least, _neighboring
> notes should always sound at the same level.
>
> About precise RC (Rockwell C-scale) hardness: I think all blue
steels are in RC 48-52 range. I never tried to mess with it ... can
try tonite. I can definetely increase/decrease it a bit with a simple
blow torch (to increase, heat up to bright orange/pale straw color
and quench in water, to decrease: heat
> up to dull
> red and slowly back-off the flame, do not quench, let air cool it
).
>
> I've never heard of it being done @ factories.
>
> Do you remember how soft/hard reeds were in #16 compared
to others you saw ?
> I am sure you plucked a few of them to get feel for it.
> What about length/shape and bend points ?
>
Rashid:
I just wrote on the so-called HOPV and related subject, posted it,
and just saw your post to me. Perhaps what I stated previously
now will cause more talk.
If you experiment tonight, try for a 44. Now depending on the reed
shape, this may or may not be to your liking. Understand that in
many cases, the artist would perform for the reedmaker so that
the reedmaker could comprehende the performers
nuances---touch--control--volume---aggressivenes, etc.
from that sitting, the reedmaker now proceeds to make the reed
sets. He also forms his opinion of the hardness/softness as
well. frosini was one such performer who although he played an
Excelsior, did not care for the Bugari reeds, and had Luigi
Giulietti fashion new reeds for him. So now its known....Frosini
played an Excelsior with Giulietti reeds.
You mentuion the neighboring tones and I assume you are
considering the sharps/flats as opposed to the naturals. The
problem there is the grille design on a non-chambered
accordion. The positioning of those reeds on the foundation, the
unequal air pressure, etc. all contribute. If what is done what I
stated previously, and the grille design allows for openess (or
distortions can take place) and the placement of the treble
switches do not hinder or reflect the sounds, the artist should be
well pleased. The grille in Italian means "Hall or a gallery" and
that in itself was originally set up to 'enhance' the sounds. But
with those wanting a 'pretty' accordion and other encumbering
members, most certainly the sound suffers. That's one thing why
I appreciate the Russian accordions....and one reason why
you've seen my specially designed (by me) bassetti the way it is.
While I have a few personal ones, I do not appreciate the tone
chamber for the reasons outlined previously..and here....two
different timbres at work....in concert.
No, I don't recall the #16 reed hardness but in hearing it in my
mind now, I suspect it was more in your lower range and
approaching mine. Veikko was not a hard player...very sensitive,
and the reeds responded quickly. Try 44 and do an entire
middle line.
Steve Navoyosky
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ras...@home.net
johann Pascher
Hi, Rashid!
Have some problems to follow you my be the laguage is the problem.
My native language is German.
Perhaps could you put some in different words, I make remaks.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: ras...@home.net
> Really-From: ras...@home.net
>
> Yep - precisely that. Helmholz came up with formulas centruries ago -
> they
> simply used them to calculate the numbers. And of course, thickness of
> the
> "bottom" piece ("roz^etka in Russian) and size of the reed valve (not
> leather, but valve)
Do you mean the closing Flaps ( Palets)?
> “opening throw a minute monkey wrench in there”
cant understand this, please a new sentence.
, so it has to be adjusted
> a bit.
>
> In reality resonant frequencies of such cavities are 3-4 times higher
> than those
> of the respective reeds, thus there is no danger of them being the same
> .
> Should it be the case, you'd have a case of 2 tightly coupled resonant
> systems
Yes.
> with matching frequencies and it'd cause all kinds of problems.
Can you say what problems.
> As such, the width of cavities is fixed to the extent that that there
> “must be as
> many of them as there're number of reed pairs going the length(height)
> of the instrument,
> on a side of a given reed block.”
Also difficult to interpret, please a new sentence.
>
> The depth is fixed in a similar fashion: too wide of a reed blocks
> (meaning deeper cav-s) will not fit into the
> instrument, too narrow (shallow cav-s) will cause tip of a sounding
> reed to touch the wood as it moves inside
> of the cavity. Bottom line: lowest notes have deepest cavity (as deep
> as width of reed block
> will allow for, with middle piece getting paper-thin ), piccolos will
> have cavities 1.5-2mm
> “deep and depth” decreases linearly from lowest to highest note, on the
> same side of a given
> reed block.
What you mean with depth of the reed block, i can follow that the
chamber cavity is very small at the highest piccolo tone. But what you
explain is done on all reed blocks I ever have seen.
jac verberne even has mounted the piccolo reeds directly to the foot of
the block.
Best regards, Johann
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tto...@ailr.com
Thanks, but the link is dead. Did you write it correctly?
Best regards,
Tom
johann Pascher
Sorry i did write his name of
Mr. jac verberne wrong.
I you cant find the page try this:
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/accextra.htm
johann Pascher schrieb:
> Hi, Theodore Kloba!
>
> Thanks I did not know where this article ware.
> But i did read this abut 1 1/2 years ago an then i contacted him.
> Mr. jac Verbone.
>
> If the article is from 1998 and he ware at that time 66, he is now over
> 70 years old.
> He did not pass on his patent to someone until a year ago. The time I
> had the last mail contact.
>
> His "new material" ware titanium grad not known and he war unable to
> tell what grad it was. Origin of Material war from Nasa Labs (Factory
> not know and grade not known).
> Because his brother works or did work there.
>
> I have now used titanium for reedtonges but count say much abut it jet.
> My be i do have the wrong typ of titanium.
> Titanium can be very dfferent dipending on the origin and grad.
> So i really would be interested to hear more abut the use of titanium
> for reed tongues.
>
> Johann
>
>
> use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
>
> > Really-Reply-To: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
> > Really-From: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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johann Pascher
Hi, Theodore Kloba!
Thanks I did not know where this article ware.
But i did read this abut 1 1/2 years ago an then i contacted him.
Mr. jac Verbone.
If the article is from 1998 and he ware at that time 66, he is now over
70 years old.
He did not pass on his patent to someone until a year ago. The time I
had the last mail contact.
His "new material" ware titanium grad not known and he war unable to
tell what grad it was. Origin of Material war from Nasa Labs (Factory
not know and grade not known).
Because his brother works or did work there.
I have now used titanium for reedtonges but count say much abut it jet.
My be i do have the wrong typ of titanium.
Titanium can be very dfferent dipending on the origin and grad.
So i really would be interested to hear more abut the use of titanium
for reed tongues.
Johann
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
> Really-From: Theodore Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> mailing list from newsgroup rec.music.makers.squeezebox
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Theodore Kloba
{A concise background on Finnish music}
The only Finnish group I've really been exposed to is Ottopasuuna, which is not
entirely traditional, and to the uninitiated could pass for Celtic as easily as
Scandinavian.
Maybe the best way to categorize the cultures is by their choice of keyboard
system. Isn't Finland one of those "C-Griff" countries?
johann Pascher
Hi, Rushid!
You write:
> I've never heard of it being done @ factories.
Tempering process is use today at modern factories to do it, all
controlled by computers.
Is all very complicated, for us programmers and electronic technicians a
bit hard to understand.
Today blue spring steel is available with a lot of different grads.
A page in German language, cant find one in English at the moment.
http://www.febrotec.de/produkte/werkstoffe/index.htm
But there is much more to this subject.
The only one on this list who did this work professional is
Steve Navoyosky as far as i know.
I know a bit about mettal work and reed making.
I had an old master for some time who showed me the reed making process.
My first profession was electronic engineer and then a ware teacher for
trainig jung technicans to becam elecronic engineers and programeers for
comunication technologies.
I think Rashid you are also from this sector of the field arnt you?
Glad you are interested in making reeds and I hope you well share all
you know.
I for my part will.
I am retired and I spend all my spare time now to do some work on
Instrument making.
Best regards, Johann
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
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johann Pascher
Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
Glad you find time to share your experiences!
Pleas have a look at my comments in between.
Would like to know ware piccolo reeds with this “trumpet” drill on the
back in use before?
Best regards, Johann
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
>
> The HOPV process has been nothing new. It can only be used
> for the highest reeds and why one would want this reed line to
> outshine the others remains to be answered,
> Many concepts have been used through the years for resonance
> and speaking. Air pressure control was yet another matter
> dealing with the situation. While it may appear that reedmakers
> are only concerned about reeds, this is not so, for they are (or
> used to be) concerned with the block and its affectiveness and
> effectiveness. The chamber of each reed must (should) reflect
> the proper air pressure to efficiently operate that reed tongue in
> relativity to the other reed tongues. Hence the knowledgeable
> technician will make his block accordingly....as the reed goes
> smaller, so does the chamber depth. This provides for equal
> amplitude and for proper amplitude. In the past, the remedy was
> to drill a small hole in the piccolo plate to relieve the high
> pressure and cause proper speaking of the reed.
Yes this works, but better is to reduce the thickness of the soundboard
and the foot of the reed block. Same can be corrected with the volume of
the camber.
Sometimes the reed ware turned around to fix this problem.
> As I stated above, the HOPV process is nothing new....only a
> re-discovery.
Ok. This may be true.
The HOPV reed is not just a reed with an extra whole in the frame.
It is more a opening on the back of the frame forming a sort of trumpet.
May be you can see it on the pictures the wholes on the frame are not
openings the are for screwing down the reeds to the block.
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/acc_bestanden/main_bestanden/tone1.jpg
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/acc_bestanden/main_bestanden/n2.jpg
Also notice that some are mounted flat without chamber.
> Professional clarinet holes can be found to
> embrace this same process and most technicians have the
> tools to remedy clarinets without the internal countersink.
>
> The ideal maneuver is to make all reed lines equally resonant
> between lines and with the line. If this is done, then you have
> succeeded in making an instrument whereas all single voice
> and coupled voices reflect one combined sound without a line
> 'standing out' as is the case with most accordion today.
Absolute correct, it is not easy to get this right.
ras...@home.net
johann Pascher wrote:
> Hi, Rashid!
>
size of the reed valve (not
> > leather, but valve)
> Do you mean the closing Flaps ( Palets)?
Yes, precisely.
>
> > "opening throw a minute monkey wrench in there"
>
> cant understand this, please a new sentence.
means: it alters it.
> > with matching frequencies and it'd cause all kinds of problems.
> Can you say what problems.
Reed will behave in rather upredictable fashion.
>
> > As such, the width of cavities is fixed to the extent that that
there
> > "must be as
> > many of them as there're number of reed pairs going the
length(height)
> > of the instrument,
> > on a side of a given reed block."
>
> Also difficult to interpret, please a new sentence.
Imagine reed block 40cm long and you need to fit 20 reed pairs
onto ea side of it. Thus ea read pair, with separators, has to
fit into 2cm - which kind of fixes the width of the resonator
cavity/chamber. One can make it narrower by using wider
separators (done for piccolos), but it can not get wider
>
> >
> > The depth is fixed in a similar fashion: too wide of a reed blocks
> > (meaning deeper cav-s) will not fit into the
> > instrument, too narrow (shallow cav-s) will cause tip of a
sounding
> > reed to touch the wood as it moves inside
> > of the cavity. Bottom line: lowest notes have deepest cavity (as
deep
> > as width of reed block
> > will allow for, with middle piece getting paper-thin ), piccolos
will
> > have cavities 1.5-2mm
> > "deep and depth" decreases linearly from lowest to highest
note, on the
> > same side of a given
> > reed block.
> What you mean with depth of the reed block, i can follow that the
> chamber cavity is very small at the highest piccolo tone. But what
you
> explain is done on all reed blocks I ever have seen.
> jac verberne even has mounted the piccolo reeds directly to the foot
of
> the block.
Imagine you have 13 cm of width to fit 3 reed blocks into. You'd want
to have
at least 1cm of empty space between inner reed block and it's
neighboring blocks and between 2 outer reed blocks and sides of the
instrument.
That leaves you with 13 - 4 = 9 cm of combined reed block width. It
means that
reed blocks can only be 3 cm wide in widest point. Assuming you managed
to get
middle separator to 1mm of thickness, reed plates are 3mm thickest, and
leather
gasket is .5mm, your deepest reed chamber can be: (30 - 1 - 2x3 - 0.5
x 2 ) / 2 = 11 mm.
Now, if you have middle set of reeds on both sides of reed block then
you want to have shallower reed chamber - say 7-8mm and you're fine.
If say one side has bassoon and the other side middle reed, than you'd
want
to get basson to full 11mm and you'd leave the depth of middle set @
7-8mm.
All of these numbers are very close to what's actually used in
instruments.
Another limiting factor for how big the cavity can be is as follows:
the larger
the cavity, the more time it will take for the reed to start vibrating
(first air
pressure/vacuum will need to build up in the cavity and only then the
reed will get going). So: you don't want it to be too big .
Another thing: consider the thickness of reed leather - for outer
(outside) reeds especially. As these sound, the matching reed leather
will go into the cavity and lay on the bottom of it, thus decreasing
the depth available for reed vibration by leather's thickness. In other
words, let's say cavity it 10mm deep. Leather is 1mm thick. The reed
better not go into the chamber more than 9mm - otherwise it will be
dampened by hitting the leather on the bottom of cavity,
9mm sounds like a lot - but imagine there 3mm high weight on the tip of
the reed.
Now reed only has 6mm of allowed travel and you might not be able to
get to forte
or fortissimo on that reed.
ras...@home.net
have
no reason not to beleive this claim :)
Now, the gain varied, but in principle the method was claimed to be
applicable
from G3 to C5 or something like that.
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/accextra.htm is the URL
ras...@home.net
made) and see what happens.
I don't have hardness meter ... should probably spring for scratching
testers.
I have some old russian steel - let me see, in scratching context,
who'd win: Russian, True Swedish, or 100% American.
Give me a sec ...
drum roll ....
1. All 3 are IDENTICAL - none can scratch any other one
2. I succesfully lowered hardness of American to where it is
scratchable
and more easily bends - using $20 Home depot blow torch I use for this
kind of work. Took 10seconds - in a rather dimly lit garage I brought
a strip of
it to very very dull red and let it cool down w/o quench.
Will make a reed out of it and see how it sounds
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher
(Johan states:)
> Yes this works, but better is to reduce the thickness of the
soundboard and the foot of the reed block. Same can be
corrected with the volume of the camber.
> Sometimes the reed ware turned around to fix this problem.
(Steve states)
In another post I commented on this. The soundboard and foot
is of no consequence here. but the chamber size is.
The purpose of the upside down reed was not for that purpose,
but for the benefit of fine tuning the reed tongue. Pressure is
pressure and no matter how it's placed on the block, the result
will remain. If there is a tone chamber, then it is affected
differently and the reed quality must be much better for that
response. A quadruple tone chamber requires the best reeds in
all banks.
>
>
> > As I stated above, the HOPV process is nothing new....only a
> > re-discovery.
>
(Johann states)
> Ok. This may be true.
> The HOPV reed is not just a reed with an extra whole in the
frame.
> It is more a opening on the back of the frame forming a sort of
trumpet.
> May be you can see it on the pictures the wholes on the frame
are not
> openings the are for screwing down the reeds to the block.
>
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/acc_bestanden/ma
in_bestanden/tone1.jpg
>
>
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/acc_bestanden/ma
in_bestanden/n2.jpg
> Also notice that some are mounted flat without chamber.
(Steve states)
But there 'is' a chamber and that being the shoe of the block.
This again is nothing new with piccolo reeds for some of the
accordions of the late 30s and the early 40s were made this way
in Italy. Bandoneons have this setup as well which is one
reason why the middle line "sparkles."
If you view those photographs, Johann, you'll see that their idea
of 'handmade' reeds and my idea are different. Those piccolo
reeds were made with harmonic steel sheets and the rivets
were placed by machine. I viewed them in a program where I
could enlarge X 3. Although blurry, it was enough to show me the
results.
>
> > Professional clarinet holes can be found to
> > embrace this same process and most technicians have the
> > tools to remedy clarinets without the internal countersink.
> >
> > The ideal maneuver is to make all reed lines equally
resonant between lines and with the line. If this is done, then you
have succeeded in making an instrument whereas all single
voice and coupled voices reflect one combined sound without a
line 'standing out' as is the case with most accordion today.
>
> Absolute correct, it is not easy to get this right.
>
> >
> > Steve Navoyosky
> >
Personally, I would not prefer to have these HOPV reeds in my
accordion. If they truly give 70% more volume, then it would
interefere with my performance. This might suit someone doing
ethnic music where that high harmonic is desired. While the
Italians have given warmth to the accordion; and the Germans
it's mechanical technology, the Russians have given it research
and intelligence to make it sing with beauty. IMHO, it is the
Russians that have made it the true instrument by being
cognizant of its physics and engineering.
Many of you have seen the instrument I designed and placed
certain specifications. The left hand side is strictly a B system
chromatic with the range going from bottom to top in pitch. Two
sets of reeds are present, and in unison about two cents apart,
which I requested. The Italians who were making it for me
argued that the last (low) octave on that side just 'had' to be in
octaves. I declined saying that it would work and it took several
conversations to get them to conform to my money. I ended it all
by telling to do as I wished and if it would not work, then I would
be the one changing it. To this day it remains as I designed it.
Perhaps the Italians learned from that experience.
Steve
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tto...@peoplepc.com
> Personally, I would not prefer to have these HOPV reeds in my
> accordion. If they truly give 70% more volume, then it would
> interefere with my performance.
Hi Steve,
I think there's a misunderstanding here. The HOPV web site (
http://www.accordeon.nl/accordeonfrontpage/accextra.htm ) states that,
for c5 (which is about 523 hz), there's a 70 % increase in "sound
energy" from this new reed design. I take that to mean, of course,
"sound power," in which case, the increase in loudness will be quite
small. For instance, if the c5 reed is playing close enough to your
ear so that its intensity level is 60 dB, you will hear a loudness of
about 60 phons (standard measure of loudness). A 70 % increase in
sound power
would result in an intensity level of 62.3 dB, which corresponds to a
loudness of about 64 phones. There's thus only an increase of about 6
or 7 % in loudness.
The performance improvement of this reed design may be better at higher
frequencies, because of the response of the human brain/ear system,
though it's curious why the web site doesn't list more favorable data.
Another point to make stems fro the question: Aren't the highest pitch
reeds in the accordion swamped out by the volume of the lower pitched
sounds coming out of the box? If so, then such an invention might be
somewhat useful.
Best regards,
Tom
www.bluesbox.biz
Mario Bruneau
traditional music has evolved to very contemporary sound. It is my best
choice for new traditional music.
--
Répondre à / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Mario Bruneau
(450) 295-2414
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau français
http://www.accordeon.com/mario bilingual
Theodore Kloba a écrit:
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: ttonon@p...
> Really-From: ttonon@p...
Hello Tom and thanks for responding.
Then it's a very confusing issue to me as I denote energy or
power as a sound force or amplitude. I see your points though
and they are well taken as I now think back to the philosophy of
doing this countersinking on the clarinet's internal bore and the
results of that. Could it be they are speaking about the sound
quality? I doubt it for when this process is done to a clarinet,
amplitude indeed rises in addition toa fuller tonal quality. But you
do indicate that amplitude happens even if by such a small
percentage.
I agree that the web page is in need of explanation as sematics
are now at play. I still refer to my experiences with clarinets as
this process method is identical....the only difference being the
direction of air flow.
What was their intention for doing this process if it wasn't for gain
? Tone qualty certainly wasn't. Speaking wasn't. for they do
speak readily. They named it 'High Output' and I read this like I
do with a booster transformer....or even a cassette tape
designation. And so I again question why there was a 'need' to
do this. Without this process the piccolo reed stands out due to
its strength, pitch, etc. caused by the brass plate, the small
chamber, and especially due to the multiple harmonics of the
steel. While the clarinet produces about four partials, the
accordion reed is much higher.....maybe nine? I forget for sure.
Well, Tom, I was just thinking out loud to perhaps stimulate
some considerations by you to formulate an intented direction.
Maybe it's necessary to contact the individual for a more
comprehensive outline into their search and readons for going
there. What do you think?
Steve Navoyosky
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Joe Kesselman (address as shown)
definition of what he means by "sound energy".
If he does, that will settle the question far better than our guesses would.
If he can't, that too tells us something.
It looks interesting. If it makes reeds speak easily at _lower_ volumes,
that would interest me more than "higher energy" does.
Joe Kesselman (address as shown)
-- but on what scale?
DoN. Nichols
That is probably totally annealed -- dead soft.
Proper tempering to reduce hardness a little is to expose it to
an elevated temperature for perhaps an hour (for things as thin as
reeds -- thicker things need times proportional to their thickness, an
hour per inch is I believe the guideline.
For 4140 steel (a tool steel), normalizing is:
heat to 1600 - 1700 degrees F. Cool in air. Average
Brinell hardness 285. (This sounds like what you did,
as 1700 degrees should be fairly red.
For the same metal, annealing is:
heat to 1450 - 1550 F. Cool slowly in furnace. Average
Brinell hardness 187
For hardening:
Heat to 1525 - 1625 F. Quench in oil. A wide range of
mechanical properties can be obtained by tempering
between 400 and 1300 F. (Note -- the lower the
temperature, the higher the remaining hardness. The
hardness when just quenched is likely too hard, and
brittle.)
The above is a complex alloy. For simple high carbon steel WHC --
(water hardening carbon) which is proably what the reed material is, the
temperatures are:
Annealing: 1425 F. Maximum cooling rate 50 F per hour.
Hardening: 1450-1525 F. Water or oil quench.
Tempering: 300-650F (63-53, Rockwell C)
So -- even soaking in molten solder will temper to
around 50 RC.
If anyone cares, I can try to look up the translation from
Brinell hardness to Rockwell-C.
>Will make a reed out of it and see how it sounds
Same pitch (neglecting changes in thickness from scale
formation, since you did not heat it in an inert atmosphere. Rather
dead sounding, will take more air to keep it sounding. Will die quickly
when airflow stops. Easy to give a permanent set if you play too hard,
after which things should not restart until the reed is reset.
What you have done is a rather extreme degree of tempering. :-)
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Michael Bell
<URL:mailto:tto...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>
> Another point to make stems fro the question: Aren't the highest pitch
> reeds in the accordion swamped out by the volume of the lower pitched
> sounds coming out of the box? If so, then such an invention might be
> somewhat useful.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
> www.bluesbox.biz
That is my problem. I wish I could find an instrument with equal loudness
across the compass.
Michael Bell
--
johann Pascher
Hi, Joe Kesselman!
I don’t know, I did tray to ask him we exchanged quit a few mails but he
never did answer this question, his answer war that he will show me the
reeds in the summer when he comes to visit me.
Unfortunately he did not find time to come around.
My be some one else who lives closer to him could visit him.
I still hope he is well.
Best regards, johann
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: "Joe Kesselman (address as shown)"
> <keshlam...@comcast.net>
> Really-From: "Joe Kesselman (address as shown)"
> <keshlam...@comcast.net>
>
> He's also saying "New material gives sensational 100 % extra loudness"
> -- but on what scale?
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johann Pascher
Hi, Don!
Glad you did make a comment on this!
I have access a tempering oven in my former workplace and I never did
use it because I did not know enough to use it professional.
The oven can be programmed to give special temperature curves up to a week.
To the rest of your comments:
I can go along with all you say!
Best regards, Johann
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
> dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
> Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
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johann Pascher
Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
Thanks for your replay, I have made some more adds between the lines is
getting a bit difficult to find your way trough the text.
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
(Johann states)
On this I would like to start a new discussion.
I have made very extensive tests a year ago and a came to different results.
But my be if you can explain this a bit more I can see your few point.
I treasure your experience and my be I have to correct something or
repeat some tests again.
Sure one can see it from the point of pressure in the chamber, all is
not absolute black and white. And if one parameter is changed others get
affected.
(Johann states)
Yes, I agree!
Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near the tip
of the reed tongue?
Ware any reed made in this way with this enlarged top part of the slot
on the backside?
(Steve states)
>
> >
> > > Professional clarinet holes can be found to
> > > embrace this same process and most technicians have the
> > > tools to remedy clarinets without the internal countersink.
> > >
> > > The ideal maneuver is to make all reed lines equally
> resonant between lines and with the line. If this is done, then you
> have succeeded in making an instrument whereas all single
> voice and coupled voices reflect one combined sound without a
> line 'standing out' as is the case with most accordion today.
> >
> > Absolute correct, it is not easy to get this right.
> >
> > >
> > > Steve Navoyosky
> > >
>
>
> (Steve states)
> Personally, I would not prefer to have these HOPV reeds in my
> accordion. If they truly give 70% more volume, then it would
> interefere with my performance.
(Johann states)
I also do not need more volume on the mi highest notes.
(Steve states)
> This might suit someone doing
> ethnic music where that high harmonic is desired. While the
> Italians have given warmth to the accordion; and the Germans
> it's mechanical technology, the Russians have given it research
> and intelligence to make it sing with beauty. IMHO, it is the
> Russians that have made it the true instrument by being
> cognizant of its physics and engineering.
(Johann states)
The Germans did also a great deal of research, and the IFM institute is
still in function.
And the results are well documented.
I would like to see printed documents from Russian research, maybe the
have even more but I never have seen anything.
(Steve states)
> Many of you have seen the instrument I designed and placed
> certain specifications. The left hand side is strictly a B system
> chromatic with the range going from bottom to top in pitch. Two
> sets of reeds are present, and in unison about two cents apart,
> which I requested. The Italians who were making it for me
> argued that the last (low) octave on that side just 'had' to be in
> octaves. I declined saying that it would work and it took several
> conversations to get them to conform to my money. I ended it all
> by telling to do as I wished and if it would not work, then I would
> be the one changing it. To this day it remains as I designed it.
> Perhaps the Italians learned from that experience.
(Johann states)
I also would say you are correct!
Do I understand this right you do have this Instrument ready made for
you jet?
Any pictures somewhere from the inside of the bass side I could see?
How deep is then the deepest tone on the bass side?
>
> Steve
>
>
My final question on you:
I am a bit confused with the ton numbering system; tom says C5 is 523 Hz.
I did not consider 523 Hz as piccolo note.
Stive pleas tell me what you think witch not has to bee seen as piccolo not.
I am just used to the European system.
And I always have the impression the numbering system like “C5” is not a
standard or if it is it may be used in different ways.
Italian number 27 = c’’= 523.3 Hz
Italian Number 39 = c’’’ = 1046,5 Hz
Italian Number 51 = c’’’’ = 2093 Hz
Italian Number 60 = a’’’’ = 3520 Hz
Highest note on my lately built instrument is Italian Number 50 = b’’’ =
1975,5 Hz
So you also see that I cant really talk abut piccolo reeds used in an
accordion.
I am thinking of putting in an higher reed set with an octave above.
I will make new reed blocks to be able to exchange with the existing.
I did put in much more work into the very deep helicon bass chambers.
And my be you would say the bass is much to massive for your test.
But a lot of people here like this tuba like sound for playing bass runs.
I am not saying that I have seceded In making a perfect Instrument,
others find it good but I am still not satisfied completely. And it
depends on the musician not all have the same needs.
Is great to communicate with you, best regards Johann
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johann Pascher
Hi, Rashid!
Tanks for your reply, I hope you also find the other mails addressed to you.
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: ras...@home.net
> Really-From: ras...@home.net
>
>
> johann Pascher wrote:
> > Hi, Rashid!
> >
> size of the reed valve (not
> > > leather, but valve)
> > Do you mean the closing Flaps ( Palets)?
>
> Yes, precisely.
OK
>
> >
> > > "opening throw a minute monkey wrench in there"
> >
> > cant understand this, please a new sentence.
>
> means: it alters it.
Clear now.
>
> > > with matching frequencies and it'd cause all kinds of problems.
> > Can you say what problems.
>
> Reed will behave in rather upredictable fashion.
I think it is predictable but usual one is not to be prepared to analyse
all, so you are quit right.
>
> >
> > > As such, the width of cavities is fixed to the extent that that
> there
> > > "must be as
> > > many of them as there're number of reed pairs going the
> length(height)
> > > of the instrument,
> > > on a side of a given reed block."
> >
> > Also difficult to interpret, please a new sentence.
>
> Imagine reed block 40cm long and you need to fit 20 reed pairs
> onto ea side of it. Thus ea read pair, with separators, has to
> fit into 2cm - which kind of fixes the width of the resonator
> cavity/chamber. One can make it narrower by using wider
> separators (done for piccolos), but it can not get wider
I have used 19mm distance for every reed. And nearly all Separators
have 4mm.
On the privies Instrument this ware 18 mm and the separators have nearly
all 3mm.
Up to abut 500 Hz the Cambers are with maximum volume only the length of
the reed decreases the volume. For higher tons the chamber depth is also
reduced.
So really each chamber has it own resonance frequency that is a multiple
of the reed frequency and you are right It is not good to have it exact
on the reed frequency.
On higher tons the resonance frequency comes close to the reed frequency
(half or quarter wave length)
The main factor is not the cavity it is the length of the chamber.
Cavity volume corrects a bit but manly the colour of the sound is affected.
I am in contact with a experienced pip organ builder who builds repairs
churge organs and the talk abut the cavity of a pipe as measure. Bigger
cross sections give more volume and a dapper colour in sound. The length
of the pipe changes the pitch.
Reed chambers and pipes are not the same abut some parallelisms remain.
Yes, it is very close to the dimension I did use.
If you are interested you can download the acad drawing with all dimensions.
I think I have posted the address before.
>
>
> Another limiting factor for how big the cavity can be is as follows:
> the larger
> the cavity, the more time it will take for the reed to start vibrating
> (first air
> pressure/vacuum will need to build up in the cavity and only then the
> reed will get going). So: you don't want it to be too big .
If you mace the chamber much bigger (longer) you get to a point where it
is good again.
This can be repeated several times so one can attach resonators that are
just out of tune (negative resonance) I think Tom know this as well
since he makes this instrument with the ability to bend notes. The it is
only critical if the resonator is spot on a multiple of the reed
frequency or close to it with detuning the resonator the colour of the
ton changes and the reed has its maximum of talk reaction between to
resonator spots.
The thickness of the foot and the thickness off the soundboard come into
consideration on very high tones. This adds to the length of the chamber
and if this is critical on high tones this may be a adding factor.
>
>
> Another thing: consider the thickness of reed leather - for outer
> (outside) reeds especially. As these sound, the matching reed leather
> will go into the cavity and lay on the bottom of it, thus decreasing
> the depth available for reed vibration by leather's thickness. In other
> words, let's say cavity it 10mm deep. Leather is 1mm thick. The reed
> better not go into the chamber more than 9mm - otherwise it will be
> dampened by hitting the leather on the bottom of cavity,
Yes, that is one of the reasons way I prefer a combination of leather
and vinyl.
>
> 9mm sounds like a lot - but imagine there 3mm high weight on the tip of
> the reed.
> Now reed only has 6mm of allowed travel and you might not be able to
> get to forte
> or fortissimo on that reed.
Best regards, Johann
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J. Coon
johann Pascher wrote:
>
> (Johann states)
>
> Yes, I agree!
> Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near the tip
> of the reed tongue?
I would think the effect would be to let the reed use more air, making
them use the same amount of air as the lower sounding reeds. As the
reeds get smaller and gaps between the reed and the frame shrink the
less air it takes to move the reed. Drilling a recess at the tip of the
reed in the reed frame will let more air flow when the reed starts to
vibrate. When the reed swings out more air flow area is available.
When it swings in, it will be the same as before.
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johann Pascher
Hi, J. Coon!
I have made a drill on a reed with Frequenze 1175 Hz (d''')
NOTHING CHANGED at all may be i should try this on higher tones.
But i dont need this very high tones. For one or two oktave higher i
have to make a reed first, cont find one hihger at the moment.
The drill simmilar as shown on the photo on jac Verbenes site.
I did not in one go to the full dipth, i made a ferw breaks in between
and lisenet to th sound of the reed.
Still i hope to get a relay from Stephen Navoyosky on this question too.
Best regards, Johann
J. Coon schrieb:
>
>
> johann Pascher wrote:
> >
> > (Johann states)
> >
> > Yes, I agree!
> > Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near the tip
> > of the reed tongue?
>
>
> I would think the effect would be to let the reed use more air, making
> them use the same amount of air as the lower sounding reeds. As the
> reeds get smaller and gaps between the reed and the frame shrink the
> less air it takes to move the reed. Drilling a recess at the tip of the
> reed in the reed frame will let more air flow when the reed starts to
> vibrate. When the reed swings out more air flow area is available.
> When it swings in, it will be the same as before.
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: squee...@yahoogroups.com
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Joe Kesselman (address as shown)
> I don’t know, I did tray to ask him we exchanged quit a few mails but he
> never did answer this question
As far as I'm concerned, that's an answer.
ras...@home.net
Dunno why but it annealed it just a bit. The key is: let the room be
dark,
don't remove the blue oxidation layer and ever so gently,with a few
passes
of BT, get to just show some duller than dull red.
It stays springy and plenty hard, but now in can be scratched, just a
bit
by untempered steel from the same batch. Not very scientific but it
works.
On interesting note I has some may be .050 blue steel strips - cut it
to may be 4"
long, 1/2 wide, cut 30 degree or so angles at the ends (so it looks
like a wide
trapesoid), worked the sides with N4 Swiss Pattern Nicholson to where
they
were perfect 90. Then I hardened it by heating the ends up (one at
time) to
straw color and quenching in water. It hardened remarkably well to
where
I can now use to scratch blue steel with absolute ease. Removes very
minute,
yet consistent layer of metal with every scratching pass. Will help me
a lot
to quickly get reeds to fit the reed plate opening .
Not only you can, effectively, plane the sides of the reed but also the
surface it
it too - will be big help in tuning . Planing like that will look much
nicer compared
to nasty scratches you typically end up with traditional methods.
If you do it - make sure you like the resulting angles - as in find
them convenient
to use. You might have one at say sharp 20 degree and second one at 45
or 60.
Make sure you only hard the ends - may be 1/2 long. The metal will be
extremely
hard to where you can no longer file it with regular files. Even
AlOxide sandpaper
will have difficulties dealing with it.
Hard metal is also very brittle - make sure not to apply bending force
to the end
as it will break it.
ras...@home.net
the numbers you cited are probably not for a full size bayan (64 notes
in RH,
unison basetti in LH _with_ piccolo - about 60 sounding notes ! ).
RH separator, for lower notes are more like .5 - .7 mm wide. All the
other numbers
are in accordance with my prev. post.
Here's an interesting question - in a single-plate instrument, what
thicknesses have you
observed for say middle reeds ? I heard about instrument with really
thin reed plates.
Typical ones are about 3mm thick @ thickest point and taper off to may
be 1.5mm
toward higher-note end of the plate.
Like I wrote before, the plate thickness ideally will need to match
highest amplitude
of reed's oscillation to produce most ideal sound. However thinner
plates don't reduce
that drastically.
Problem with really thin plates is: when you rivet the reed in
traditional Russian method,
rivet holes will enlarge quite a bit to a point where replacing reed,
should one need replacement,
will be a huge hassle.
Jim C
Test it by comparing to anothrer reed that is the same but not
modified. See if it sounds different, takes more or less air to start,
takes more or less air to sustain the sound, what is the effect of
increased air pressure compared to before(like when you want to play
loud and squeaze hard and fast) , how about when you play soft with
less air pressure. Lots of things to compare!
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tto...@ailr.com
>
>I am a bit confused with the ton numbering system; tom says C5 is 523
Hz.
>I did not consider 523 Hz as piccolo note.
>Stive pleas tell me what you think witch not has to bee seen as
piccolo not.
>I am just used to the European system.
>And I always have the impression the numbering system like "C5" is
not a
>standard or if it is it may be used in different ways.
>
>
>Italian number 27 = c''= 523.3 Hz
>Italian Number 39 = c''' = 1046,5 Hz
>Italian Number 51 = c'''' = 2093 Hz
>Italian Number 60 = a'''' = 3520 Hz
>
>
>
>Highest note on my lately built instrument is Italian Number 50 =
b''' =
>1975,5 Hz
>
You raise a good point. The c5 I mentioned was using the American
system, and the European system is different, at least according to:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/FrequenzbereichMusikinstrumente.pdf
which places c5 at 4786 hz, which is considerably higher than 523 hz.
The main conclusion; i.e., that loudness increase is rather modest,
however shouldn't change much, though when I get a little more time,
I'll post what they are.
Best regards,
Tom
www.bluesbox.biz
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
wrote:
> Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
>
>
> Glad you find time to share your experiences!
>
> Pleas have a look at my comments in between.
> Would like to know ware piccolo reeds with this "trumpet" drill on the
> back in use before?
>
> Best regards, Johann
What I stated was that the principle is not new as it has been used with other
instruments. Accordions however did not feel this process was viable and
never ventured into. As you can read, noone seems to be interested except
the people holding the patent.
Steve Navoyosky
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stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
wrote:
> Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
>
> Thanks for your replay, I have made some more adds between the lines is
> getting a bit difficult to find your way trough the text.
Johann
(snip)
> > (Steve states)
> > In another post I commented on this. The soundboard and foot
> > is of no consequence here. but the chamber size is.
> > The purpose of the upside down reed was not for that purpose,
> > but for the benefit of fine tuning the reed tongue. Pressure is
> > pressure and no matter how it's placed on the block, the result
> > will remain. If there is a tone chamber, then it is affected
> > differently and the reed quality must be much better for that
> > response. A quadruple tone chamber requires the best reeds in
> > all banks.
>
> (Johann states)
>
> On this I would like to start a new discussion.
> I have made very extensive tests a year ago and a came to different
results.
> But my be if you can explain this a bit more I can see your few point.
> I treasure your experience and my be I have to correct something or
> repeat some tests again.
> Sure one can see it from the point of pressure in the chamber, all is
> not absolute black and white. And if one parameter is changed others get
> affected.
>
I'm not sure to what you are asking here for a new discussion. I mentioned
several items.
Steve
(snip)
> (Johann states)
>
> Yes, I agree!
> Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near the tip
> of the reed tongue?
> Ware any reed made in this way with this enlarged top part of the slot
> on the backside?
I agree with what Jim Coon stated......it allows more air to flow once the
tongue swings, Perhaps that is all this HOPV is about. My preference is to
keep a constant pressure and not design for minimum breakage of the
tongue. There's more to this but it would take a long time to type it all out.
No, none were made with the countersink before this but we all understood
the principle and decided not to persue this method.
> >
> >
> > (Steve states)
(snip)
> (Johann states)
> The Germans did also a great deal of research, and the IFM institute is
> still in function.
> And the results are well documented.
>
> I would like to see printed documents from Russian research, maybe the
> have even more but I never have seen anything.
>
(Steve states)
>
Of course. I did not mean to slight the German influences. I do have some of
their studies and they are very concise. I am just partial toward the Russian
approaches.
> (Steve states)
>
> > Many of you have seen the instrument I designed and placed
> > certain specifications. The left hand side is strictly a B system
> > chromatic with the range going from bottom to top in pitch. Two
> > sets of reeds are present, and in unison about two cents apart,
> > which I requested. The Italians who were making it for me
> > argued that the last (low) octave on that side just 'had' to be in
> > octaves. I declined saying that it would work and it took several
> > conversations to get them to conform to my money. I ended it all
> > by telling to do as I wished and if it would not work, then I would
> > be the one changing it. To this day it remains as I designed it.
> > Perhaps the Italians learned from that experience.
>
> (Johann states)
> I also would say you are correct!
> Do I understand this right you do have this Instrument ready made for
> you jet?
> Any pictures somewhere from the inside of the bass side I could see?
> How deep is then the deepest tone on the bass side?
Yes I still have it. A very great instrument. I had it made in 1988. I have no
photos of the interior. The lowest note is E which was my preference. I was
asked if I wanted to go to C below that and I declined.
> >(Johann stated)
> My final question on you:
>
> I am a bit confused with the ton numbering system; tom says C5 is 523 Hz.
> I did not consider 523 Hz as piccolo note.
> Stive pleas tell me what you think witch not has to bee seen as piccolo not.
> I am just used to the European system.
> And I always have the impression the numbering system like "C5" is not a
> standard or if it is it may be used in different ways.
>
> Italian number 27 = c''= 523.3 Hz
> Italian Number 39 = c''' = 1046,5 Hz
> Italian Number 51 = c'''' = 2093 Hz
> Italian Number 60 = a'''' = 3520 Hz
>
> Highest note on my lately built instrument is Italian Number 50 = b''' =
> 1975,5 Hz
>
> So you also see that I cant really talk abut piccolo reeds used in an
> accordion.
> I am thinking of putting in an higher reed set with an octave above.
> I will make new reed blocks to be able to exchange with the existing.
>
> I did put in much more work into the very deep helicon bass chambers.
> And my be you would say the bass is much to massive for your test.
> But a lot of people here like this tuba like sound for playing bass runs.
>
> I am not saying that I have seceded In making a perfect Instrument,
> others find it good but I am still not satisfied completely. And it
> depends on the musician not all have the same needs.
>
> Is great to communicate with you, best regards Johann
I believe he (Tom) already answered that for you.
I'm sure your instrument exceeds all expectations for you are an honorable
man who takes a great interest in this instrument. I cannot see you producing
anything less than perfection.
Steve Navoyosky
boxplayer47
Steve,
What a tremendou dialog on reeds and reed design ... I am thoroughly
enjoying it. I was going to post and ask how one can be sure to
get a high quality set of reeds today in 2004 ... but then I saw
your comment below:
> I have found that it is best for the artists to have the highest
> quality reeds for the lesser player cannot comprehend their value
> and the careful manner in which to perform with them. This is
> one reason why there were always three stages of qualities in
> accordion: Student line, semi-professional line, and
> professional. Today however, it appears that even the beginner
> wants the very best and for no good reason.
As a non-professional player, this gives me pause. I think of
comprehending the value of reeds in two different perspectives, one
as a player but the other as a listener. I have, on occasion, heard
a rare vintage PA played and it was a delight to listen to, a sound
I will never forget. I have also heard and even played, more modern
examples of very good quality reeds in Petosa and Giuletti
instruments. Though not as impressive, the sound quality is far
above my lesser instrument. Even as a non-professional player I can
very much appreciate the wonderful richness, brilliance and dynamics
of better reeds.
Clearly, I cannot exercise such fine reeds to the limits of their
capabilities. But my love for the sound far outpaces my talent, and
given a serious and diligent pursuit of improved technique, I am
curious why I should not have as rich a tone as my wallet can afford?
I submit that if more non-professionals demanded fine reeds, we
would have more reed makers able to make a living and develop higher
levels of skill, such as in the golden age of the accordion, or even
better. This seems to benfit all -- the student, the reed and
instrument makers, and the professional (who might once again be
able to get truely fine reeds). Why lament non-professionals
wanting the very best?
Is it because of a limited supply, and taking fine reeds "out of
circulation" is undesirable? I can understand that. If so, how can
I (and others) support the production of new, better quality reeds?
It seems the only choice is buy a better brand of PA and hope for
the best. Can you offer any advice?
-Dennis-
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use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: tto...@ailr.com
> Really-From: tto...@ailr.com
Hi, Tom this explains much, so if this is correct this piccolo reeds are
far to high in pitch for me.
I don’t need this very high tone at all.
So trying to modify a d’’’ would not give any results anyway.
Somhow ther must be something wrong because if you put a’ at 440 Hz
4786 hz would not be a “c”.
Please have an other look.
I include a table with note to fequence relations.
German notation.
Italo Nr. Note f[Hz] 1Hz= Cent 1 Cent = Hz
C-2 16,4 102,76 0,009 Subkontraoktave
C#-2 17,3 97,16 0,010
D-2 18,4 91,84 0,011
D#-2 19,4 86,82 0,011
E-2 20,6 82,06 0,012
F-2 21,8 77,55 0,013
F#-2 23,1 73,29 0,013
G-2 24,5 69,26 0,014
G#-2 26,0 65,44 0,015
A-2 27,5 61,84 0,016
001 B-2 29,1 58,42 0,017
002 H-2 30,9 55,20 0,018
003 C-1 32,7 52,14 0,019 Kontraokatave
004 C#-1 34,6 49,26 0,020
005 D-1 36,7 46,53 0,021
006 D#-1 38,9 43,95 0,022
007 E-1 41,2 41,51 0,024
008 F-1 43,7 39,21 0,025
009 F#-1 46,2 37,03 0,027
0010 G-1 49,0 34,98 0,028
0011 G#-1 51,9 33,03 0,030
0012 A-1 55,0 31,19 0,032
01 B-1 58,3 29,46 0,034
02 H-1 61,7 27,82 0,036
03 C 65,4 26,27 0,038 Große Oktave
04 C# 69,3 24,80 0,040
05 D 73,4 23,42 0,042
06 D# 77,8 22,12 0,045
07 E 82,4 20,88 0,048
08 F 87,3 19,72 0,050
09 F# 92,5 18,62 0,053
010 G 98,0 17,58 0,057
011 G# 103,8 16,59 0,060
012 A 110,0 15,67 0,064
1 B 116,5 14,79 0,067
2 H 123,5 13,96 0,071
3 c 130,8 13,18 0,076 Kleine Oktave
4 c# 138,6 12,45 0,080
5 d 146,8 11,75 0,085
6 d# 155,6 11,09 0,090
7 e 164,8 10,47 0,095
8 f 174,6 9,89 0,101
9 f# 185,0 9,33 0,107
10 g 196,0 8,81 0,113
11 g# 207,7 8,32 0,120
12 a 220,0 7,85 0,127
13 b 233,1 7,41 0,135
14 h 246,9 7,00 0,143
15 c' 261,6 6,60 0,151 eingestrichene Oktave
16 c#' 277,2 6,23 0,160
17 d' 293,7 5,89 0,170
18 d#' 311,1 5,56 0,180
19 e' 329,6 5,24 0,190
20 f' 349,2 4,95 0,202
21 f#' 370,0 4,67 0,214
22 g' 392,0 4,41 0,226
23 g#' 415,3 4,16 0,240
24 a' 440,0 3,93 0,254
25 b' 466,2 3,71 0,269
26 h' 493,9 3,50 0,285
27 c'' 523,3 3,31 0,302 zweigestrichene Oktave
28 c#'' 554,4 3,12 0,320
29 d'' 587,3 2,95 0,339
30 d#'' 622,3 2,78 0,360
31 e'' 659,3 2,62 0,381
32 f'' 698,5 2,48 0,404
33 f#'' 740,0 2,34 0,428
34 g'' 784,0 2,21 0,453
35 g#'' 830,6 2,08 0,480
36 a'' 880,0 1,97 0,508
37 b'' 932,3 1,86 0,539
38 h'' 987,8 1,75 0,571
39 c''' 1046,5 1,65 0,605 dreigestrichene Oktave
40 c#''' 1108,7 1,56 0,641
41 d''' 1174,7 1,47 0,679
42 d#''' 1244,5 1,39 0,719
43 e''' 1318,5 1,31 0,762
44 f''' 1396,9 1,24 0,807
45 f#''' 1480,0 1,17 0,855
46 g''' 1568,0 1,10 0,906
47 g#''' 1661,2 1,04 0,960
48 a''' 1760,0 0,98 1,017
49 b''' 1864,7 0,93 1,077
50 h''' 1975,5 0,88 1,141
51 c'''' 2093,0 0,83 1,209 viergestrichene Oktave
52 c#'''' 2217,5 0,78 1,281
53 d'''' 2349,3 0,74 1,357
54 d#'''' 2489,0 0,70 1,438
55 e'''' 2637,0 0,66 1,524
56 f'''' 2793,8 0,62 1,614
57 f#'''' 2960,0 0,58 1,710
58 g'''' 3136,0 0,55 1,812
59 g#'''' 3322,4 0,52 1,920
60 a'''' 3520,0 0,49 2,034
61 b'''' 3729,3 0,46 2,155
62 h'''' 3951,1 0,44 2,283
63 c''''' 4186,0 0,41 2,419 fünfgestrichene Oktave
64 c#''''' 4434,9 0,39 2,562
65 d''''' 4698,6 0,37 2,715
66 d#''''' 4978,0 0,35 2,876
67 e''''' 5274,0 0,33 3,047
68 f''''' 5587,7 0,31 3,228
69 f#''''' 5919,9 0,29 3,420
70 g''''' 6271,9 0,28 3,624
71 g#''''' 6644,9 0,26 3,839
72 a''''' 7040,0 0,25 4,068
73 b''''' 7458,6 0,23 4,310
74 h''''' 7902,1 0,22 4,566
Still would be nice if you find time to post more an this subject.
Best regards, johann
johann Pascher
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Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
Thank for this fast replay!
OK, this answers me main question!!
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
(johann)
Is not so important, my be we came to the subject abut chamber
resonance, talk reaction at some other time again.
>
> (snip)
> > (Johann states)
> >
> > Yes, I agree!
> > Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near
the tip
> > of the reed tongue?
> > Ware any reed made in this way with this enlarged top part of the slot
> > on the backside?
>
> I agree with what Jim Coon stated......it allows more air to flow
once the
> tongue swings, Perhaps that is all this HOPV is about. My preference
is to
> keep a constant pressure and not design for minimum breakage of the
> tongue. There's more to this but it would take a long time to type it
> all out.
>
(johann)
Absolute my thinking too.
(Stephen Navoyosky)
> No, none were made with the countersink before this but we all understood
> the principle and decided not to persue this method.
(johann)
OK, this answers me question!!
>
> > >
> > >
> > > (Steve states)
> (snip)
> > (Johann states)
> > The Germans did also a great deal of research, and the IFM
institute is
> > still in function.
> > And the results are well documented.
> >
> > I would like to see printed documents from Russian research, maybe the
> > have even more but I never have seen anything.
> >
> (Steve states)
> >
> Of course. I did not mean to slight the German influences. I do have
> some of
> their studies and they are very concise. I am just partial toward the
> Russian
> approaches.
OK, we understand each other.
>
>
> > (Steve states)
> >
> > > Many of you have seen the instrument I designed and placed
> > > certain specifications. The left hand side is strictly a B system
> > > chromatic with the range going from bottom to top in pitch. Two
> > > sets of reeds are present, and in unison about two cents apart,
> > > which I requested. The Italians who were making it for me
> > > argued that the last (low) octave on that side just 'had' to be in
> > > octaves. I declined saying that it would work and it took several
> > > conversations to get them to conform to my money. I ended it all
> > > by telling to do as I wished and if it would not work, then I would
> > > be the one changing it. To this day it remains as I designed it.
> > > Perhaps the Italians learned from that experience.
> >
> > (Johann states)
> > I also would say you are correct!
> > Do I understand this right you do have this Instrument ready made for
> > you jet?
> > Any pictures somewhere from the inside of the bass side I could see?
> > How deep is then the deepest tone on the bass side?
>
> Yes I still have it. A very great instrument. I had it made in 1988. I
> have no
> photos of the interior. The lowest note is E which was my preference.
I was
> asked if I wanted to go to C below that and I declined.
>
(Johann)
sure it must be a great Instrument, to bad I cant see it.
Italian Number 07 note E 82,4 Hz is this correct?
(johann)
Not completely jet.
> I'm sure your instrument exceeds all expectations for you are an
honorable
> man who takes a great interest in this instrument. I cannot see you
> producing
> anything less than perfection.
(Johann)
No, it is not perfect, still thanks for your respect.
And I thank you very much for your time.
Hope you have enough time to play on your great Instruments.
I have to get better.
All the best to you, Johann.
>
>
> Steve Navoyosky
johann Pascher
Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
I think you hit the nail on the hat with your answer.
I did think i have not a other question on you, but
one qestion remains, about reeds completely made out of titanium.
This Russian Instrument made by Volkovich's did the have steel reed
tongues or titanium.
You mention the instrument ware very lightweight.
And Rashid did talk abut is before too.
But I never found out war just the frames made out of titanium or the
complete reed.
Jac Verbene say titanim reed tongues are possible.
I could not prove this until jet.
Best regards, johann
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
>
> --- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
> >
> >
> > Glad you find time to share your experiences!
> >
> > Pleas have a look at my comments in between.
> > Would like to know ware piccolo reeds with this "trumpet" drill on the
> > back in use before?
> >
> > Best regards, Johann
>
> What I stated was that the principle is not new as it has been used with
> other
> instruments. Accordions however did not feel this process was viable and
> never ventured into. As you can read, noone seems to be interested except
> the people holding the patent.
>
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: squee...@yahoogroups.com
>
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stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
wrote:
> Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
>
>
> I think you hit the nail on the hat with your answer.
>
> I did think i have not a other question on you, but
>
> one qestion remains, about reeds completely made out of titanium.
>
> This Russian Instrument made by Volkovich's did the have steel reed
> tongues or titanium.
>
> You mention the instrument ware very lightweight.
>
> And Rashid did talk abut is before too.
>
> But I never found out war just the frames made out of titanium or the
> complete reed.
>
> Jac Verbene say titanim reed tongues are possible.
>
> I could not prove this until jet.
>
> Best regards, johann
>
Johann, please don't hold this to me, but I *think* the reed tongues were
steel.
This was almost 25 years ago when I was with Veikko and the instrument
wasn't all that old. I only could see the bass section as Veikko always takes
that apart and places it in a special padded case and has it with him all the
time.
Steve Navoyosky
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stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, "boxplayer47" <boxplayer47@y...>
wrote:
You misconstrue my meaning, Dennis. If you have the dollars to buy the very
best, then do so. I do not object.
To make my point I'll say it this way: The need to buy a sport car to go to the
neighbothood grocer is futile.
In other words, the need to have the finest reeds in order to play polkas is a
waste of the reeds for the reeds were made for sensitivity playing. I've seen
the Polka player attempting to get more from the reed and its tight
compression, only to have it break. In reality, the polka player can do just as
well with a handfinished reed for he's truly after power and that will give him
power. Now let's stop and state that all reeds are not alike even if they are
so-called 'handmade' or 'handfinished' or 'standard' etc. for much depends on
how well they were made.
Dennis, the business of making true 'handmade reeds' has already
disappeared. They exist 'only' by name. It's called marketing' and the public
becomes takened. In the past I've said here that I've seen, today...many new
handfinished reeds that would outplay a 'so-called' new handmade
reed.....and vice-versa. It all depends who makes them...and how well.
So you order an accordion and specify 'handmade' reeds? Think about it.
There are no reeds actually hand-made today. It's all machinery.made. Just
look at them and see if they look like machinery has produced them (of
course by men-women) or do they look like they were made by hand? It's
easy to spot the difference. The handmade are crude as hand tools were
used.
So now we've established that all are prepared by machinery, and now I ask
you if you tell good from bad workmanship. Or do you rely on what is stted in
the catalog?
Now let';s go back to your question and ask you...How are you going to
demand finery? The manufacturer is at the helm and according to him, he
knows what's best for you. I got want I wanted when I built my bassetti
because they knew that I knew. Otherwise, it would have stated "It can't be
done" and they'd let it go at that, and I would have received what they gave
me.
Now I 'do' agree with you Dennis, that all reeds should be the best for it would
be better for the instrument and its acceptability by the educators and the
general public. Lesser quality reeds most certainly can be
stringent....but.....there's still another consideration that makes the noises,
and that's lack of tuning. I have found that most players are contenet wih their
instruments being out of tune, for it bridges the gap between an 'in tune' dry
accordion and the 'out of tune' musette accordion. While the player may like
the musette sound, many 'out there' do not. So what to do? I don't honestly
know. The manufacturers are dying away due to lack of sales and ebay sales,
and when they go the old accordions will be repaired until oblivion, and when
the good repairmen are gone, the accordion will die. Remember that this all
started around 1960 and its been a decline ever since.
At least I was part of the heydays but the memories hurt after viewing the
present.
Steve
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johann Pascher
Hi, again Stephen Navoyosky!
Thanks for you answer. I understand, must have not been the most
important thing to look at the type of material, and really just from
the colour one would quit hard tell the difference.
I still hope, Raschid knows more abut it.
Hope I can tell you more in some time abut the use of titanium for reed
tongues.
But, I am not very optimistic at all, that it would be worth using
titanium for the tongues.
I had some discussions with metal workers, who use titanium for other
applications.
And the think if it is not because oft the weight the think the special
spring steel as used today on reed tongues is far the better juice.
And the spring quality belongs much to the added substance and not to
the titanium it self.
I do have titanium now that has a very good elastic module.
I it easy to file the martial nearly equal to the usual reeds.
Best regards, johann
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
>
> --- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
> >
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the hat with your answer.
> >
> > I did think i have not a other question on you, but
> >
> > one qestion remains, about reeds completely made out of titanium.
> >
> > This Russian Instrument made by Volkovich's did the have steel reed
> > tongues or titanium.
> >
> > You mention the instrument ware very lightweight.
> >
> > And Rashid did talk abut is before too.
> >
> > But I never found out war just the frames made out of titanium or the
> > complete reed.
> >
> > Jac Verbene say titanim reed tongues are possible.
> >
> > I could not prove this until jet.
> >
> > Best regards, johann
> >
>
>
> Johann, please don't hold this to me, but I *think* the reed tongues were
> steel.
> This was almost 25 years ago when I was with Veikko and the instrument
> wasn't all that old. I only could see the bass section as Veikko always
> takes
> that apart and places it in a special padded case and has it with him
> all the
> time.
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: squee...@yahoogroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> squeezebox-...@yahoogroups.com
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stephen_navoyosky
and as you've probably learned by now that the easiest to file are
not the best quality.
steve
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ras...@home.net
joand really just from
> the colour one would quit hard tell the difference.
>
> I still hope, Raschid knows more abut it.
Reeds were never made out of titanium, TBOMK.
Titanium was ONLY used to replace certain parts
that are normally made out of steel. There's not
a whole lot of those in RH (only 2 long rods that
act as axis on which button rods pivot)- but LH has quite a few.
And these are precisely the ones that were replaced with
titanium parts. YOu can still order this type of construction
even today.
Remember, titanium is heavier than alluminum, lighter than
steel yet has about the same strength as regular steel - thus
the weight savings.
J. Coon
I don't think annealing the steel to make a reed is a good thing.
Spring steel will bend with the air flow and return to the original
position after years of use. Annealed steel will bend easily and not go
back to the position it was set in originally after a while. It will
suffer metal fatigue and break sooner too. Spring steel should have a
better sound too.
Try this: Clamp a piece of spring steel and a piece of the same material
in a vise so the same amount is sticking out. Pluck each one and listen
to the sound and the sustain of each. You should find that the spring
steel sounds better and sustains longer than the annealed steel.
My guess is the annealed steel absorbs some of the energy of the pluck
as the molecules move and fatigues the metal, while the tempered steel
the molecules stay in position. Now mind you, I am not a metallurgist,
it is just a gut feeling.
use...@d-and-d.com wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: ras...@home.net
> Really-From: ras...@home.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Processed through gateway at d-and-d.com to squeezebox
> mailing list from newsgroup rec.music.makers.squeezebox
>
>
>
tto...@peoplepc.com
>63 c''''' 4186,0 0,41 2,419
fünfgestrichene Oktave
Thanks for the correction. I made a typographical error. As you point
out, c5 in the European system should correspond to a frequency of 4186
hz, The main conclusion, however, is the same, i.e., that the
increase in loudness is modest, though considerably more than what I
calculate at 523 hz.
For instance, if a 4186 hz sinusoidal sound wave was played at 60 dB
sound intensity, its loudness will be about 60 phones, which
corresponds to about 6 sones. Increasing sound power level by 70 %
increases sound intensity to 62.3 dB, which gives about 65 phones, and
which corresponds to about 7 sones. The increase in loudness (sones)
is thus about 17 %. I suppose this is significant, and the invention
looks very interesting.
Incidentally, the concept of loudness is complex, and one standard way
of calculating loudness, which is measured in sones, is to first
calculate loudness in phones, from the Fletcher-Munson diagram. One
then goes to another diagram to convert from phones to sones. Another
important point is that the first calculation, above, to get phones
assumed a sinusoidal (pure) tone, which is not the case here. The more
correct way would be to apply much more complicated procedures that
include the overtones of the actual tone. Such laborious work isn't
justified here, and the results here shouln't be very far from those
obtained by the more laborious calculation. An additional small point
is that most people cannot hear very many overtones of a musical tone
with fundamental pitch of 4186 hz.
Best regards,
Tom
tto...@peoplepc.com
>
>Well, Tom, I was just thinking out loud to perhaps stimulate
>some considerations by you to formulate an intented direction.
>
Why they might do it: My guess is that some people feel the piccolo
reed isn't loud enough. I can understand this, from my own experience.
How it works: My answer to this may be difficult to understand by
those who have not formally studdied fluid dynamics. To say it simply,
the indent on the back side of the plate allows a larger air mass to
vibrate when the reed tongue turns the bellows pressure force on and
off. It's similar to the reason why you can do more work with a sledge
hammer than you can with a small shoemaker's hammer. Thus, the
"effective vibrating mass" is increased, improving the mechanism by
which a (steady) pressure difference is converted to sound energy. The
idea doesn't work well with low pitch reeds because the air flow in
these cases forms jets, which are dissipative mechanisms and which
cannot be converted into pressure (sound) waves. Furthermore, the high
pitch reeds allow a more organized air mass to vibrate and are thus
able to capitalize on the HOPV idea because the air movement in these
reeds is unsteady, whereas, with the low pitch reeds, the air movement
is quasi-steady, which is a condition in which jets must form. As I
say, these concepts may be foreign to those that have not worked
extensively with theoretical fluid dynamics, so I can only assure you
that these are well founded principles accepted by Engineers,
Physicists, etc., and I'm making my own guess in applying these
concepts to explain this phenomenon (how the HOPV works).
Best regards,
Tom
www.bluesbox.biz
stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> Really-Reply-To: ttonon@p...
> Really-From: ttonon@p...
>
> Hi Steve and Johann,
>
> >
> >Well, Tom, I was just thinking out loud to perhaps stimulate
> >some considerations by you to formulate an intented direction.
> >
>
> Why they might do it: My guess is that some people feel the piccolo
> reed isn't loud enough. I can understand this, from my own experience.
>
So now you agree with the 'loudness' as being synonomous with 'energy.'
Yes, I feel that's what are saying they achieve. From my many years of
performing I can assure you that the piccolo gets in my way and I avoid it
except is certain cases where I need reinforcement of the harmonics from the
middle line(s).
(Tom)
> How it works: My answer to this may be difficult to understand by
> those who have not formally studdied fluid dynamics. To say it simply,
> the indent on the back side of the plate allows a larger air mass to
> vibrate when the reed tongue turns the bellows pressure force on and
> off. It's similar to the reason why you can do more work with a sledge
> hammer than you can with a small shoemaker's hammer. Thus, the
> "effective vibrating mass" is increased, improving the mechanism by
> which a (steady) pressure difference is converted to sound energy. The
> idea doesn't work well with low pitch reeds because the air flow in
> these cases forms jets, which are dissipative mechanisms and which
> cannot be converted into pressure (sound) waves. Furthermore, the high
> pitch reeds allow a more organized air mass to vibrate and are thus
> able to capitalize on the HOPV idea because the air movement in these
> reeds is unsteady, whereas, with the low pitch reeds, the air movement
> is quasi-steady, which is a condition in which jets must form. As I
> say, these concepts may be foreign to those that have not worked
> extensively with theoretical fluid dynamics, so I can only assure you
> that these are well founded principles accepted by Engineers,
> Physicists, etc., and I'm making my own guess in applying these
> concepts to explain this phenomenon (how the HOPV works).
> Best regards,
> Tom
> www.bluesbox.biz
Tom, if noted that Jim Coon alluded to this feature and I agreed with him. I'm
familiar with your words as I've also studied and worked in engineering and
can appreciate the comments. However, I've gone one step further and that
is to be a reedmaker nd one who had to know principles in order to achieve
cetain features desired. When you speak of air mass from the back side, I
hear you, but your comparison to the lower reeds has more to do with the fact
there are valves hindering the two-way flow. The piccolo does not have
valves and that in itself becomes a two-way flow affecting both reeds at the
same time. One reinforces the other and is 'layered' for the sound.
You see, when I place a piccolo on the first coarse tuning provino, the table is
constructed to prevent flow of the opposite flow. The reason is to prevent that
"disturbance" caused by the other reed. Going to table two, which is the one
where valves have been attached (to the lower pitches of the piccolo line)
those 12 upper reeds are now free to operate as they will when on the block.
If the first table did it's job, then these "should be" in tune across directions.
The clarinet (as one instrument I mentioned) has the countersunk hole inside
the bore and air passes from inside the bore to outside of the clarinet......one
way.
Now you referred to the "dent" on the "backside" of the plate...but there is
also a "dent" on the "outside" of the plate for the inside reed tongue.
I understand to what you are saying and can agree with your thoughts, but
this isn't what *I* see happening because of those countersunk holes on
either side. I see a concern of lessening the 'speaking' of those tongues
because air pressure is allowed to flow more freely with the larger opening, to
wit; the countersink.
Since I've made these, I can verify that designing the reeds this way to add
volume will not do it...but the adverse of it.
The flat laying of the reeds is an old method and one to cause them to speak
brilliantly. Now couple that with direct air pressure and having the "dent" to
allow the applying of a hard bellowing to develop a high SPL (if you will) and
those reeds will sound without breaking. You see the chamber control is gone
and replaced by the "dent" for that control.
In actuality, reed tongues need tight quarters to respond and the HOPV
design gives this, but once i motion, the air flow hastens because of the
backside....but....the other reed is vibration sympathetic and also in motion...if
it is well in tune. So you have both actions at once.
Make sense to you? This certainly isn't the best way and place to write a
paper on the subject, but its all we have at the moment.
Steve Navoyosky
johann Pascher
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
Yes, and there is not easy way to harden titanium.
It is more like rubber in its behaviour or a bit between spring steel
and rubber.
And even if one gets good results, one would need to see how this
material behaves over a long period when in use.
So if someone knows about the use of titanium for reed I am still
interested in everything.
And don’t forget the price is quit high if on makes the complete reed
out of titanium.
Actually my thought did go in an other direction.
But after all this discussions here and with a lot of other people from
face to face.
I don’t think I would find anyone who would pay for such a reed set.
I would have to pay for the prototyping my self.
I could make a reed set or some by hand but this was not my intension.
Bu you know, the time involved to make it completely by hand no one
would pay for this time involved too.
So it would also only be for my own satisfaction.
So you see we are in a funny time and as you tolled in an other mail you
see the results since the 1960.
I am nearly 54 years old and I war first all in favour of that electric
and computerised systems.
I am a child of that time and I believed all the promises in the 60is at
the first time.
And as I got older I realised more and more that a lot of knowledge and
now how is getting to be lost. So beside my profession I always used my
hands to do some work in the traditional ways. On the other hand I ware
one of the first here in Austria to build Micro controlled CNC Machinery
in the 70tis. Now I spend nearly all my time devoted to the Accordion.
Still I do some minor jobs in the electronic and programming field as
well.
So you see I am sitting between two chars.
Thanks for all your contribution to this subject, all the best to you
Stephen Navoyosky.
Johann
johann Pascher
use...@d-and-d.com schrieb:
> Really-Reply-To: tto...@peoplepc.com
> Really-From: tto...@peoplepc.com
Hi, Tom!
You are absolute correct in all your explanation!
Seams you also have some electronic background.
At my last job I had to teach this stuff from time to time.
Yes, I also would like to have all black on with to prove.
But with even the best measuring equipment it is as you say
“laborious work” and we are far from what a good trained ear can hear
without using modern measuring tools.
So for me both approaches are very important, but for the musician only
the result counts.
Beside this I don’t need tons as high as c5 and above.
But it is very interesting to hear your explanation.
Do you use tones that high in your instruments?
The instruments I did build until now are ditonic type Instruments and
the are usual far bellow this frequencies.
Hope we can exchanges some ideas in the future too.
Best regards, Johann
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johann Pascher
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
Hi, Tom!
I wish I would be able to us my own German language so I could
contribute a bit more.
But on the other hand as long as the discussion between you and Steve
goes on is not much I can add. I can see both few points and I have no
problem to follow your explanations.
Sure you made more studies on this subject as I did.
Did you have access to high-speed film recording of the fluid behaviour
as well?
Some of this exists for flutes and for reeds.
And jac. Verbene state he made this at Philips labs in Netherlands where
he worked.
Steve Navoyosky's arguments are really good and the are really worth
thinking abut!
Your arguments make since to me too, may be the truth is not easy to get
into an explanation.
From the practical few point since I also make reeds by hand I must go
along with Steve in his arguments. On the other hand we are talking abut
reeds with a pitch so high I never did make.
Steve my have made this very high pitched reeds as well.
Best regards, Johann
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johann Pascher
Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
Titanium as material for reed tongues:
Have made a singe reed tongue with a titanium material.
Results are not very surepicining.
Ton gets a bit higher ( ~10%) with approximately the same demission as
the equivalent steel tongue.
Steel is easier to work with.
Steel can be filed down easier to thinner equal thickness as the
titanium I used.
The harness of the titanium used ware little less as the steel.
Hard metal drill and the usual file did work.
The sound of the reed is not much different to steel, but little les
overtones is my first impression.
Talk reaction and sustain of the ton is also not much different if at all.
Count say much to it because I would need to make whole set of reed and
put them into a box with an other reed set with equal dimensions so the
result could be charged better.
Is it possible to use the material?
Yes, but I don’t see much advantage compared to steel at the moment.
And I don’t know how the material behaves over a long time in use.
The fequenz measured on this single reed plate with two equal reed
tongues one with steel the other with titanium as used for springs for
other applications ware:
Steel: 1960 Hz
Titanium: 2085 Hz ( c’’’’)
Dimensions of the reed tongue:
Approximately in average 2mm to 13mm.
I don’t think a other grade of titanium would have better spring quality
as I have used.
Usual grads available don’t work most of them are to soft, I was told.
So the real revolution still has to came, and jac Verbene would also
have to prove his statement, that he has better results with the use of
titanium.
So I can more and more go along with you Stephen Navoyosky nothing new
“all has been done before”.
Best regards, Johann
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Jim C
--- johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
> Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
>
>
> Titanium as material for reed tongues:
>
> Have made a singe reed tongue with a titanium material.
> Results are not very surepicining.
>
> Tone gets a bit higher ( ~10%) with approximately the same demission
> as
> the equivalent steel tongue.
> Steel is easier to work with.
> Steel can be filed down easier to thinner equal thickness as the
> titanium I used.
> The hardness of the titanium used ware little less as the steel.
> Hard metal drill and the usual file did work.
> The sound of the reed is not much different to steel, but little les
> overtones is my first impression.
You can compare the overtones by recording the sound and using
Transcribe! to view the harmonic content of the waveform. The demo of
Transcribe! will work for that, but I purchased my copy after I used it
for a while.
http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html
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Jim C
--- johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>
> >
> Hi, Tom!
>
> I wish I would be able to us my own German language so I could
> contribute a bit more.
You do just fine Johann Pascher. We can understand everything you are
saying. You have a very clear and inquisitive mind and are very
knowledgable and it comes through in your writing. You need not worry
about it.
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johann Pascher
Hi Jim,
you are right, I just did it by ear because I can tell more by ear as
by the spectrum.
If there would be more difference in the sound I certainly would make a
spectrum analysis of it.
And one reed is not very much to tell on. A whole set would be better to
compare.
And I did not have the time today to do it anyway. May be I making a
second attempt to compare.
But the main thing is the sound is nearly equal not a lot of difference.
Johann
Jim C schrieb:
>
> --- johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
> >
> >
> > Titanium as material for reed tongues:
> >
> > Have made a singe reed tongue with a titanium material.
> > Results are not very surepicining.
> >
> > Tone gets a bit higher ( ~10%) with approximately the same demission
> > as
> > the equivalent steel tongue.
> > Steel is easier to work with.
> > Steel can be filed down easier to thinner equal thickness as the
> > titanium I used.
> > The hardness of the titanium used ware little less as the steel.
> > Hard metal drill and the usual file did work.
> > The sound of the reed is not much different to steel, but little les
> > overtones is my first impression.
>
> You can compare the overtones by recording the sound and using
> Transcribe! to view the harmonic content of the waveform. The demo of
> Transcribe! will work for that, but I purchased my copy after I used it
> for a while.
>
> http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
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johann Pascher
Thanks Jim Coon,
good to know some of my thoughts came across.
Still it would be easier for me in my own language, and I am always
gratefully if someone like you also participates in the discussion and
if only the same thoughts are put into different or better words it
helps to clarify the subject.
Best regards, Johann
Jim C schrieb:
>
> --- johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > Hi, Tom!
> >
> > I wish I would be able to us my own German language so I could
> > contribute a bit more.
>
> You do just fine Johann Pascher. We can understand everything you are
> saying. You have a very clear and inquisitive mind and are very
> knowledgable and it comes through in your writing. You need not worry
> about it.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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Jim C
Well, if you were to express yourself in your own language, we would
all look like dummies. You are able to get your point accross verry
well.
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johann Pascher
Hi, Jim you can download now a wave file with a recording of this two reeds.
I have retuned the reeds to about bb''' so the have the same pitch now.
But you will see, there is not a noticable difference in sound after it
is recorded and replayed.
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/privat/spectrum/compare-titan-steel-reed.wav
best regards, Johann
johann Pascher schrieb:
>
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johann Pascher
Hi, Jim Coon!
I hope I don’t give the impression I know everything and the others are
dummies.
That would be my last intension.
There are many subjects I can’t contribute anything to it at all.
And I have more the impression that I am the one who did learn more here.
And I can’t compare my self with all this fine musicians here on the list!
It is a pleasure to participate.
Thank you to everyone!
Johann
Jim C schrieb:
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Jim C
I downloaded it and using Transcribe! did a spectrum analysis and the
are almost identical. I can hear no difference and can see very little
difference either.
I say stick to the tried and true steel reeds, but don't enneal them,
they use spring steel for a reason.
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stephen_navoyosky
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, Jim C <liteways@t...> wrote:
> I downloaded it and using Transcribe! did a spectrum analysis and the
> are almost identical. I can hear no difference and can see very little
> difference either.
>
> I say stick to the tried and true steel reeds, but don't enneal them,
> they use spring steel for a reason.
>
> Jim Coon
Amen to that as back in WWII, with all the factories going munitions, all that
was left to use was clock springs. And we used them.
Steve Navoyosky
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--- stephen_navoyosky <SNAVO...@NEO.RR.COM> wrote:
>
>
> --- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, Jim C <liteways@t...> wrote:
> > I downloaded it and using Transcribe! did a spectrum analysis and
> the
> > are almost identical. I can hear no difference and can see very
> little
> > difference either.
> >
> > I say stick to the tried and true steel reeds, but don't enneal
> them,
> > they use spring steel for a reason.
> >
> > Jim Coon
>
>
> Amen to that as back in WWII, with all the factories going munitions,
> all that
> was left to use was clock springs. And we used them.
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
>
I was a toddler back then.
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DoN. Nichols
johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
[ ... ]
>And as I got older I realised more and more that a lot of knowledge and
>now how is getting to be lost.
In many fields -- not just this one.
> So beside my profession I always used my
>hands to do some work in the traditional ways. On the other hand I ware
>one of the first here in Austria to build Micro controlled CNC Machinery
>in the 70tis.
Hmm ... Austria, CNC, 1970s. Were you by any chance involved in
programming the Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC (127mm swing over bed, 6502
CPU). (It probably had another name in Austria, since the name I know
it by is in English.) If so, I would be interested in talking to you
about this machine and your memories of it.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Gerd Mayer
Johann,
I have followed your discussions about reeds with Jim. Stephen, and Tom with grear interest. I play, but know little of the technical aspects. I always picked my accordions for sound, volume, sound of the reeds, and key actions. I regularly play my Settimio Soprani 4/4 reeds, having traded down from Paolo Soprani Super 5/5 with tone chamber to reduce weight for my "strolling" playing.
Can you help me with an old accordion?
I have a Hohner, I keep it on a shelf and play once in a while. Not the accordion I normally play. It was built in Trossingen October 28, 1931. It has the most beautiful tremolo I have ever heard - and I have had several professional quality accordions over my 52 years of playing. The Hohner is original in all aspects and has never before been opened, I think. It needs tuning, it needs the patched bellows replaced, but I have not taken it to be serviced, wanting to keep everything original. I take it down from the shelf sometimes to play it. It is 34 treble, 48 bass. When I pull, the tremolo is wonderful, when I push some reeds loose their vibrations. Could it be the leathers? Can you advise me what, if anything, I can do to fix this problem, without resorting to major "surgery"?
Gerd
johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
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Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
Thank for this fast replay!
OK, this answers me main question!!
stephen_navoyosky schrieb:
>
> --- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, johann Pascher <j_pascher@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi, Stephen Navoyosky!
> >
> > Thanks for your replay, I have made some more adds between the
lines is
> > getting a bit difficult to find your way trough the text.
>
> Johann
>
> (snip)
> > > (Steve states)
> > > In another post I commented on this. The soundboard and foot
> > > is of no consequence here. but the chamber size is.
> > > The purpose of the upside down reed was not for that purpose,
> > > but for the benefit of fine tuning the reed tongue. Pressure is
> > > pressure and no matter how it's placed on the block, the result
> > > will remain. If there is a tone chamber, then it is affected
> > > differently and the reed quality must be much better for that
> > > response. A quadruple tone chamber requires the best reeds in
> > > all banks.
> >
> > (Johann states)
> >
> > On this I would like to start a new discussion.
> > I have made very extensive tests a year ago and a came to different
> results.
> > But my be if you can explain this a bit more I can see your few point.
> > I treasure your experience and my be I have to correct something or
> > repeat some tests again.
> > Sure one can see it from the point of pressure in the chamber, all is
> > not absolute black and white. And if one parameter is changed
others get
> > affected.
> >
>
> I'm not sure to what you are asking here for a new discussion. I
mentioned
> several items.
> Steve
(johann)
Is not so important, my be we came to the subject abut chamber
resonance, talk reaction at some other time again.
>
> (snip)
> > (Johann states)
> >
> > Yes, I agree!
> > Me first question on this was what you think on this drill near
the tip
> > of the reed tongue?
> > Ware any reed made in this way with this enlarged top part of the slot
> > on the backside?
>
> I agree with what Jim Coon stated......it allows more air to flow
once the
> tongue swings, Perhaps that is all this HOPV is about. My preference
is to
> keep a constant pressure and not design for minimum breakage of the
> tongue. There's more to this but it would take a long time to type it
> all out.
>
(johann)
Absolute my thinking too.
(Stephen Navoyosky)
> No, none were made with the countersink before this but we all understood
> the principle and decided not to persue this method.
(johann)
OK, this answers me question!!
>
> > >
> > >
> > > (Steve states)
> (snip)
> > (Johann states)
> > The Germans did also a great deal of research, and the IFM
institute is
> > still in function.
> > And the results are well documented.
> >
> > I would like to see printed documents from Russian research, maybe the
> > have even more but I never have seen anything.
> >
> (Steve states)
> >
> Of course. I did not mean to slight the German influences. I do have
> some of
> their studies and they are very concise. I am just partial toward the
> Russian
> approaches.
OK, we understand each other.
>
>
> > (Steve states)
> >
> > > Many of you have seen the instrument I designed and placed
> > > certain specifications. The left hand side is strictly a B system
> > > chromatic with the range going from bottom to top in pitch. Two
> > > sets of reeds are present, and in unison about two cents apart,
> > > which I requested. The Italians who were making it for me
> > > argued that the last (low) octave on that side just 'had' to be in
> > > octaves. I declined saying that it would work and it took several
> > > conversations to get them to conform to my money. I ended it all
> > > by telling to do as I wished and if it would not work, then I would
> > > be the one changing it. To this day it remains as I designed it.
> > > Perhaps the Italians learned from that experience.
> >
> > (Johann states)
> > I also would say you are correct!
> > Do I understand this right you do have this Instrument ready made for
> > you jet?
> > Any pictures somewhere from the inside of the bass side I could see?
> > How deep is then the deepest tone on the bass side?
>
> Yes I still have it. A very great instrument. I had it made in 1988. I
> have no
> photos of the interior. The lowest note is E which was my preference.
I was
> asked if I wanted to go to C below that and I declined.
>
(Johann)
sure it must be a great Instrument, to bad I cant see it.
Italian Number 07 note E 82,4 Hz is this correct?
>
> > >(Johann stated)
> > My final question on you:
> >
> > I am a bit confused with the ton numbering system; tom says C5 is
523 Hz.
> > I did not consider 523 Hz as piccolo note.
> > Stive pleas tell me what you think witch not has to bee seen as
> piccolo not.
> > I am just used to the European system.
> > And I always have the impression the numbering system like "C5" is
not a
> > standard or if it is it may be used in different ways.
> >
> > Italian number 27 = c''= 523.3 Hz
> > Italian Number 39 = c''' = 1046,5 Hz
> > Italian Number 51 = c'''' = 2093 Hz
> > Italian Number 60 = a'''' = 3520 Hz
> >
> > Highest note on my lately built instrument is Italian Number 50 =
b''' =
> > 1975,5 Hz
> >
> > So you also see that I cant really talk abut piccolo reeds used in an
> > accordion.
> > I am thinking of putting in an higher reed set with an octave above.
> > I will make new reed blocks to be able to exchange with the existing.
> >
> > I did put in much more work into the very deep helicon bass chambers.
> > And my be you would say the bass is much to massive for your test.
> > But a lot of people here like this tuba like sound for playing
bass runs.
> >
> > I am not saying that I have seceded In making a perfect Instrument,
> > others find it good but I am still not satisfied completely. And it
> > depends on the musician not all have the same needs.
> >
> > Is great to communicate with you, best regards Johann
>
>
> I believe he (Tom) already answered that for you.
(johann)
Not completely jet.
> I'm sure your instrument exceeds all expectations for you are an
honorable
> man who takes a great interest in this instrument. I cannot see you
> producing
> anything less than perfection.
(Johann)
No, it is not perfect, still thanks for your respect.
And I thank you very much for your time.
Hope you have enough time to play on your great Instruments.
I have to get better.
All the best to you, Johann.
>
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
>
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johann Pascher
Gerd, nice to hear from you!
You are doing well with your way of picking a new accordion.
Your trained ear and your test are them measure for your needs.
The problem starts only when on starts to talk abut it and not using the
instrument.
Or for builders when getting new supply as it is today no one makes
there own reeds any more.
So there should be written down standards to compare.
As this is the case for nearly everything in or technical system today.
Accordion builders have to but all this different qualities and types of
reed set into different boxes und then the can tell it is suitable for
this kind of box or not.
Very time consuming and if one knows a good combination it should be
possible to make similar boxes with the same type of reed sets to get to
nearly the same result.
True is that there is not really good or bad if you take not the worse
and chipset reed sets on the market. (true handmade anyway beyond
discussion today)
You have had an Instrument with chamber and now you have one without.
For instance one would think for a chamber instrument the best reed set
must be taken.
This is not the case, because some of the overtones produced by very
good reeds interfere with the chamber characteristic and in most cases
reeds with less overtones sound better in combination of a chamber.
It seams chamber instrument are the non-plus ultra, for a lot of
musicians but for my test I prefer good reeds with a very open cover.
Well-tuned very flat tremolo or just the single reed set. But you see it
come down to ones personal test.
As to you Hohner Instrument.
The leather my well be a reason way some reed are out of tune.
If the instrument has a nice flat tremolo this is even more likely to
happen.
The problem is only to find someone who just fixes the problem without
changing too much.
You like the sound now, you don’t know if you like the sound after some
has been fixed.
And you say the pull direction is all right, that is good.
Because you don’t need to go to the inside of the reeds.
And it is more likely that some outside Leathers are curled as the inside.
In the chamber the leather cant bend so far away for the frame as on the
out side, so it is more likely the are pulled into the right position by
playing from time to time, as this is the case for outside Leathers.
So you could open the box and have a look, my be you see some leathers
that stand off the reeds too much. Ideal would be if all lay down onto
the reed frames very flat but sure this is not the case. Don’t mess
around with it if the sound of the particular reed is ok for you.
You my even take off the Leather that makes problems sometimes the
leather is only to stiff and bended. So if you soften the leather
through moving between the fingers it my already solve the problem an
you can glue the leather back to the frame. If this does not help you
will have to replace the Leather or it may be this particular reed needs
some cleaning or retuning.
The bellows you can order from Italy no problem.
But if you don’t have big problems with your bellows and you have time
enough you may find the leakage and replace some of the diamond leathers.
Bu I think the old one will not get as air tight as a new one.
If you start on it, just ask some more detailed questions.
Is not a big problem. I send you the address if you want to order one.
And my be you can get a new one in Canada.
Making one yourself would not really pay, it takes me 3 Days for one
bellows to build.
Really it did take one week the last time because one cant work on it
all the time.
So you see one my think Instruments or parts for it are expensive.
No the are not is still much time that go into every part.
Hope this helps, may be someone else can add to it too.
All is my opinion, and my be someone else has a different one.
Best regards, Johann
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johann Pascher
Hi, Don!
Nice to here from You!
Your question:
> Hmm ... Austria, CNC, 1970s. Were you by any chance involved in
> programming the Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC (127mm swing over bed, 6502
> CPU). (It probably had another name in Austria, since the name I know
> it by is in English.) If so, I would be interested in talking to you
> about this machine and your memories of it.
>
Sorry, the emco Factory is not far away from here.
I personally did work at that time at a very small company and I have
worked one a few CNC … constructing the electronic circuit and
programming the machinery.
But it all was based on Intel CPUs and coprocessors.
The machines are still in use some in Austria and some in the USA some
in near east.
The machines are much bigger as an EMCO CNC.
The fist one was for producing special big sheets of large special
plastic with all type of wholes and other type of surface cutting. And
this was before we had good big memory’s to use.
We used bubble memory at that time and later it was replaced.
The Machine is still in use some had been renewed but not a lot.
And the other machines are for controlling extruders and similar things
all very large abut 30 to 80 meters.
The machinery was made by a different Companies, I only worked on the
electronic part.
But there are many other smaller projects I have worked on. Started with
microelectronic in 1975 and then i did it for abut 10 Years then I
swished to become a teacher for electronic and did some minor work
beside the teaching. Now are a lot of pupils to them I had contact
Turing the teaching period and the are already well settled in this
business and some of them are on my old workplace and carry on the
electronic business.
Some are well settled in other company’s around here and the construct
all modern electronic stuff far bioned my abilities to do this any more.
I do have little loose contact to some of them and to a few of them a
better contact exists. Telecommunication is really the main sector we
work on today.
Before 1975 I ware Television engineer and worked too in other fields,
acoustic for big halls, for some time. So it ware a wide range in the
field of electronic over all this time.
All what I know is now not much worth any more, and I don’t mind.
End it was never enough what I did know, so learning did not stop all
that time.
Better is I dont look back on it, mind you I don miss it now.
But beside all this I had this great opportunity to meet Mr. Hans
Salcher who got me interested in building Accordions.
Sorry if I cant really talk abuts the Motorola 6502 CPU and EMCO.
Never did build a single board with this CPU but I remember a week
programming on it.
Now I work on Altera FPGAS but just for fun not really doing much with
it. This is getting all in a direction I am getting a bit to old for it.
An if I would do this extensivly I think I it would drive me crazy in
the future.
Hope I don’t give the wrong impression, would be nice to here some abut
your background as well.
All the best to you, Don!
Johann
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dr_freereed
Hi Johann,
I admire your diligence and energy in conducting experiments. It's
this kind of effort that brings progress to any technology. I'd like
to make some comments from a theoretical point of view.
For a vibrating bar acting as a cantilever, both the frequency of
vibration and the speed of sound of the transverse waves depend on 1)
the geometry of the bar, and 2) the ratio of Y/rho of the material,
where Y is Young's Modulus, and rho is the material density. Thus, if
two reed tongues of different materials but same geometry and ratio
Y/rho vibrate, both the shape and frequency of the two tongues will be
identical, and one can expect that, everything else being the same,
the two musical tones emanating from both materials will be identical.
In the case of Titanium and spring steel, in English units, we have:
Y (Ti) = 15.2 x 10^6 lb_f/in^2
Y (spring steel) = 30.5 x 10^6 lb_f/in^2
rho (Ti) = 0.163 lb_m/in^3
rho (spring steel) = 0.283 lb_m/in^3
Y/rho (Ti) = 9.32 x 10^7 lb_f-in/lb_m
Y/rho (spring steel) = 1.08 x 10^8
RATIO { Y/rho-spst / Y/rho-Ti } = 1.16
Since the vibration frequency depends on (Y/rho)^0.5, we have, for the
same geometry
frequency-spst/frequency_Ti = (1.16)^0.5 = 1.07
which means the pitch of the spring steel reed, for the same geometry,
will be approximately 1.5 semi-tones higher than that of the Titanium
reed. This is very noticeable. I don't know if you started with the
same geometry for both reeds, but if you did, you should have had to
lower the spring steel reed pitch in order to match the pitch of the
Titanium reed. Does this check with your results?
In addition, the wave speed depends upon (Y/rho)^0.75, so the speed in
the spring steel, for the same geometry, is 1.16^0.75 = 1.11 higher
than that of in Titanium. This means that the shape of the tongue as
it vibrates will be, for identical geometry, very close for both
materials, and it is doubtful that differences in timbre could be
discerned.
I fail to see why one would propose Titanium reed tongues. Even if
there were significant differences in the ratio Y/rho, it's not clear
why such a difference would result in a superior material, since
simple changes in geometry can outshadow any such difference. Most
importantly, the difference in yield stress between the two materials
is very large:
Yield strength Ti = 39 to 59 x 1000 psi
Yield stremgth spring steel = 239 - 400 x 1000 psi
This is very important. Since the internal stresses in a bending bar
are proportional to the amount of bending, this means that the
Titanium bar will deform at a vibration amplitude of only 0.039 to
0.24 of that for spring steel. It would take some figuring how this
translates to musical volume, but it seems very likely that, with
normal playing, the Titanium reed tongue would very quickly become
useless.
Best regards,
Tom
www.bluesbox.biz
DoN. Nichols
johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>
>Hi, Don!
>
>Nice to here from You!
>Your question:
> > Hmm ... Austria, CNC, 1970s. Were you by any chance involved in
> > programming the Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC (127mm swing over bed, 6502
> > CPU). (It probably had another name in Austria, since the name I know
> > it by is in English.) If so, I would be interested in talking to you
> > about this machine and your memories of it.
[ ... ]
>Hope I don’t give the wrong impression, would be nice to here some abut
>your background as well.
I'll move this to private e-mail, as it is well off topic for
this newsgroup. :-)
alluru
Hey has anyone tried the FR-5 and/or FR-7 from roland
Seems like on paper they would be great stage boxes.
Also I wonder if they would supply the workings, "electronics", to build
other than straight PA's ...diatonics etc.
Still I like the sound of real reeds.
Luf Ang Lloyd
Newcastle OZ.
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johann Pascher
Hi, Tom!
I have sent you private mail with a bit more on it.
I am delighted from your contribution
It relay shows you are in this subject!
I have had a discussion with a friend on the and with on other one who
is Mathematician.
And in the end it did go far beyond my knowledge.
But if I take an other theoretical approach and a lot of time my be I
get it.
The first problem is the material it self, the titanium used by me is
not a pure titanium.
And not a usual grad.
So I cant supply the constants for this material.
And don’t forget all what I made I a single reed with the same
geometrical dimensions.
An I did not measure the exact profile proportions.
So there may be well a source for a big error.
The main result for my is that I cant see that I could prove Jac
Verbenes statemant that titanium is some sort of revolution when used
for reeds.
On the other hand it is not impossible to use titanium for reed tongues
but way one would use it?
I have red though your comments several times, and it is all quit clear
for me and I can follow your explanations.
As for the last verse form your comment:
The titaniun I have used is much more flexible as spring steel.
It cam be bended approximately 30% more as springs steel without
deformation.
It is softer as spring steel.
Wehn using a hammer on it, the hammer bounces back to you without result.
Similar to what happens when using a hammer on PVC plastic.
But if you use a much bigger hammer you can deform the material.
It seams it depends very strong on the sort off aloe.
Best regards, am glad I could meet you.
Johann Pascher
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John`s
"alluru" <all...@idl.net.au> wrote in message
news:000301c4e09c$6c07ff80$2660fea9@lloyds...
>
>
> Hey has anyone tried the FR-5 and/or FR-7 from roland
> Seems like on paper they would be great stage boxes.
>
> Also I wonder if they would supply the workings, "electronics", to build
> other than straight PA's ...diatonics etc.
>
> Still I like the sound of real reeds.
>
> Luf Ang Lloyd
>
> Newcastle OZ.
I played it almost two hours just by myself. It is 24 lbs expensive toy.
You can retrofit your acoustic accordion with a MIDI and will get a much
better result.
John
dr_freereed
Hi Johann,
You are correct. I mistakenly assumed you were talking about
commercially pure Titanium (Grade 2), and there are Titanium alloys
used to make springs. It was silly of me not to think of this because
I myself wear eyeglass frames made out of one of these alloys!
The most common Titanium alloy used for springs was developed in the
1960's and is commonly known as Beta-C. It's also known as Ti 38644
(indicating the approximate chief alloying agents: 3% Al, 8% Vn, 6%
Cr, 4% Mo, and 4% Zr). This alloy is used in aerospace applications,
and automobile makers tried to incorporate it into weight saving
springs, but found it was too expensive for consumer cars, though okay
for racecars and some snowmobiles.
Young's Modulus (Y) for Beta-C ranges from about 13 to 18 Mpsi, which
is not far from that of Grade 2 (15.2 Mpsi). The higher value is
found in the Solution Annealed plus Aged (STA) Condition, and is the
strongest condition. Also, Beta-C density (rho) is 0.174 lb_m/in^3,
which is again not far from that of Grade 2 (0.163 lb_m/in^3). The
yield strength of Beta-C, however is (assuming optimum aging and cold
working) about 210 kpsi, which is much larger than that of Grade 2 (39
to 59 kpsi), and this is a big reason why this alloy is useful as
springs, and why it may be useful as reed tongues, if there were no
other issues. We note, however, that this yield stress is still
significantly below that of spring steel (239 – 400 kpsi).
(Incidentally, a Beta-C spring is much lighter than a spring steel
spring not only because of the lower density, but also because the
lower Young's Modulus for Beta-C allows much larger deflection for the
same force (stress), and thus, the number of coils can be reduced.)
Looking now at the reed tongue, if we consider Beta-C material in the
STA condition, we calculate Y/rho = 18,000,000/0.174 = 1.08 x 10^8
lb_f-in/lb_m, which is, coincidentally, about the same as that for
spring steel. At this point, we see that, for the same geometry, a
Beta-C reed tongue will vibrate with the same frequency and same shape
as does a spring steel tongue. But what are it's advantages?
I still don't see the attractiveness of this alloy over spring steel.
Considering the complexity of heat treating and aging with either a
vacuum oven, or with a grinding and/or pickling process afterward, and
the high initial cost, it seems that this alloy will be considerably
more expensive than spring steel, when used as reed tongues. It's
true that it won't rust. I have very little information on fatigue
resistance, which needs to be checked out.
Johann, at this point, we would need to know what specific claims
advocates have for this material. Why do they claim it's so good?
There may be significant advantages I can't think of right now, but it
would helpful if you can describe more detail about the claims that
are being made.
As you know, there are many aspects to what makes a good reed tongue
material, including cost, availability, performance, durability, ease
of fabrication, ease of tuning, fatigue resistance, etc. I thus feel
that it will not be a simple endeavor to decide how useful Beta-C will
be. If your interested, a company that makes this material is Dynamet,
in Washington, PA, website: http://www.cartech.com/dynamet . There's
also Allvac, at
http://www.allvac.com/allvac/pages/PDF/tech/TI-50938-644.pdf
Best regards,
Tom
johann Pascher
Hi, Tom!
Tanks for taking your time to think and write abut this subject again.
All this facts you contribute, help to see all bit clearer from the few
point of mathematic fundament.
Thanks for the link!
Did look at all info.
You are right the Material is very expensive compared to usual spring steel.
Even if it would be used more regular for reed it would increase the
price considerable.
I got the material without paying for it. But I was tolled it would cost
abut 100 times more as stainless steel.
Your question:
> Looking now at the reed tongue, if we consider Beta-C material in the
> STA condition, we calculate Y/rho = 18,000,000/0.174 = 1.08 x 10^8
> lb_f-in/lb_m, which is, coincidentally, about the same as that for
> spring steel. At this point, we see that, for the same geometry, a
> Beta-C reed tongue will vibrate with the same frequency and same shape
> as does a spring steel tongue. But what are it's advantages?
Cant answer relay, and I also would say may be there is not at all any
advantage over spring steel.
I am quite happy with the theoretical conclusions you contributed.
“nearly equal”
Is not bad result at all.
But I don’t need too much on theoretical conclusions the truth is always
a bit more complicated. We cannot describe the reality absolute. There
is always some space for errors or left out factors.
So I for my part can say, it would be nice if we would have a Instrument
that had reeds with the use of titanium, played be good musicians and
then the should tell as what is the advantage.
All I could say it should be possible to use titanium for reed tongues.
But we don’t know how the will perform over a long time of use.
One advantage could be, being able to produce the reed and the reed
frame from a single part by 3D spark eroding technique. The gap could be
closer because the temperature changes apply to both the frame and the
tongue.
Your question:
> Johann, at this point, we would need to know what specific claims
> advocates have for this material. Why do they claim it's so good?
> There may be significant advantages I can't think of right now, but it
> would helpful if you can describe more detail about the claims that
> are being made.
Unfortunately I cant!
It was Jac Verbene who clamed that.
But in all the mails I exchanged with him he could not tell me more.
He clamed: the sound changes and in his opinion improves as well.
He could not supply any facts.
He really ware more interested in all I did know.
And the only other time I did hear of the us of titanium ware in this
news group.
Some time ago Rashid made a notice that he knows abut Instruments made
by “Yuri Volkovich” with the use of titanium reeds. But we don’t know
this now for sure my be just the frames ware made with titanium to
reduce the weight.
I still hope to hear an answer to this question from Rashid or someone
else who knows this Bajans.
(Original mail that did not get answered:
Dear, Rashid Karimov!
I am glad to hear that you are also interested in this subject!
Are you a reed maker?
You talk abut “Yuri Volkovich” and that he made actually reed sets with
titanium.
……….
Did you hear or play such byans with titanium reeds made by “Yuri
Volkovich”?
…….)
Best regards, Johann
dr_freereed schrieb:
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