Re: Celluloid: The true history and application
DoN. Nichols
> I'll practice what I just preached to Walter Derlukiewicz and discuss
> accordions and the especially the mystery of celluloid and it's use and
> application on accordions. Hopefully this will tranquilize.
This was an excellent and quite helpful article, I believe. I
don't use the celluloid because it is not common on the English
construction concertinas, but it is still a nice bit of knowledge to
have.
I presume that something similar was done with the manufacture
of toilet seats (which once were covered with the same material), except
that they probably had precise cutouts to apply, since this was more of
a production atmosphere than a factory (or an individual) making custom
accordions of varying sizes.
Thanks much,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
TommyMemphis
the economic areas of music since I do consulting work with music
retailers. You know that I am a purist at heart and use newer
technologies sparingly.
It is always sad to be a purist in the time of technological change.
The comeback the accordion had is pretty limp. You have unorthadox crap
like those darn accordions (who for all their notoriety still travel in
a beat up panel van bursting at the seams with clothes and belongings,
from gig to gig) and you have the Hispanic and Zydeco stuff. Memphis
has the most sophisticated audiences I have ever come across and I am
playing out in virtualloy every genre you can imagine.
On the whole, I agree with you, it is a dying culture.
The really crappy part for me is in the quality of those who now
consider themselves artisans,quality retailers and teachers. One cannot
blame for people who don't know better and who are only trying to make
an honest living, and I surely don't.
It is still sad to open up an accordion and see tool and machine marks
on reeds.
I remember not too long ago sitting in Churchiglia's house of music and
meeting Mickey Basiglia (sp) for the first time. I was at Rocky's
playing hookey from work and practicing on his second floor. Mickey
heard me play and complimented me.
Knowing his pedigree, having been taught by Gerlach, and then you, I
realized just how much our standards have slipped. :-). It was nice to
meet him. He played some Jazz on my Giulietti and if my frined who ran
a studio downstairs didn't have a client, I was going to buy some
studio time and make a recording of Mickey. I wish I would have waited
for the studio to open up.
So now we have knuckleheads recommending Chinese accordions. Can you
imagine that?
ginny
celloid.>
Although I don't expect to do that sort of work, it's informative.
I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the
casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that
the reeds rest on and that sort of thing. In clarinets the actual
material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the
finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
Johann Pascher
HI, Stephen!
I am glad you came up and explained all very well, you can do this much
better as me!
>(Btw, It is a misnomer that celluloid affects the rusting of reeds of
the accordion)
Yes may be, you must know this better.
If steel is kept in a close condition to Celluloid in a container
without air exchange it encourages the rust. That is what I noticed.
On accordions that are in use it should not be any problem.
May be you do have some Accordions not in use for a very long time in a
closed case so you would know if there are any negative effects on the
reed tongues.
>The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water
Yes this is about the mixture.
I did not mention because there are different Acetone in trade here the
all already have some water in it.
The rest of the explanation is about the same as I know how to do it.
Some differences remain we don’t use any sanding we use only metal
scrapers. If sanding is used it has to be done with water and down to a
very fine grain before it can be polished.
Acetone celluloid solution is usually not used to stick the sheet to the
case here. If the celluloid is softened the right amount it sticks to
the case surface without adding any solution.
On the other hand I have seen it this way at Strasser where the do glue
the sheets to the case without pulling a larger very soft sheet over the
corners.
So I am sure there are some differences and all may work.
And my be you have more experiences in working with Celluloid as I have.
I never made a accordion box with Celluloid cover my self, but I made
some other Celluloid covered cases in the past. Because we did teach
this beside other plastic working techniques at or technical school. I
was not the on how usually did teach this techniques but one of my
workmates had classes for may years and sometimes I accompanied him in
his teaching work.
This practical classes are stopped now only a few of other techniques in
connection with plastic are still trained now, but keep in mind the
school is mainly about electronic.
Now only varies gluing techniques all type of welding techniques for
sheets an pipes are still teached in connection with the varies types of
plastic.
Now the still build cases completely made bay plastic one with Acryl a
other one with PVC and one with Epoxy, but nothing about Celloied any
more exit theoretical.
>As time passes, it will be hard to find accordion
>factories as the instrument continues to lose it's mass popularity in
>favor of electronics. Look at the age group that is maintaining sales
>both new and old. Youngsters were once found predominately in teaching
>studios. Now its oldsters. I've experienced the height and decline of
>this instrument, as I started learning the accordion in 1939 and began
>teaching in 1953. I read about the how it's 'coming back' but this is
>marketing hype to encourage sales and maybe a few to learn. This would
>be nice but the world has changed in its desires. Even symphonies are
>expiring. The composers today are not scoring for live orchestras but
>for electronic 'virtual' instruments and effects. The movies and TV
>producers prefer this and encourage it for it eliminates costs in
>hiring musicians. The composer of the future will be a fellow at a
>keyboard and computer with sampled sounds and a sequencer and recording
>direct to CD. Its that now but not entirely....yet. And yes, there will
>be those who are purist at heart and want to learn and excel in an
>instrument. But they will be in the minority.
I am sorry the it is this way where you live.
Here in Austria and I think in Germany the accordion is getting quit
popular again.
We have a lot of pop music groups and others that use et least on
accordion within there formation.
Alpine helicon diatonic boxes sell better as ever. All the factory’s in
Austria don’t complain about to less orders.
Best regards, Johann
snavo...@neo.rr.com schrieb:
> I'll practice what I just preached to Walter Derlukiewicz and discuss
> accordions and the especially the mystery of celluloid and it's use and
> application on accordions. Hopefully this will tranquilize.
>
> I will not address the regulations in Europe for I don't have any idea
> of their laws, but I do know that here, in this country, the fire code
> has regulations and requirements for its use. It is not banned but
> controls are placed for the transporting of celluloid which makes it
> difficult to acquire at times...unless one travels and transports it
> themselves in special metal containers. What I will discuss is what I
> am familiar with, after all these many years, and how one works with
> this material in covering an accordion.
>
> Pyroxylin or cellulose nitrate (originally cellulose dinitrate) or
> celluloid was the early form of plastics and used in many ways and
> forms and quite popular at the time.
> However, it burned too easily and developed spontaneous decomposition,
> and was largely replaced by cellulose acetate plastics.
>
> The mid 30s brought cellulose acetate (triacetate) as a replacement for
> the unstable and highly flammable cellulose nitrate. It is this
> substance which covers your accordions. Acetate deteriorates in the
> presence of oxygen in an unused state, releasing acetic acid. This
> product was not flammable like its predecessor, but it still had
> decomposition and deterioration problems which were caused by heat,
> light, moisture, chemical reactions or from other chemicals placed in
> close contact.
>
> What happens is a cracking, shrinkage, warping and the release of
> chemical gases causing this decomposition. In the case of cellulose
> acetate, the flammable aspect is not a problem,
> But in time it decomposes to a dust state. That has happened to some of
> my stock here when I failed to keep better controls.
>
> And it is for this very reason why it must be kept in metal cases. I
> have many sheets of celluloid and must protect them from the elements.
> It is deemed a fire hazard here in the unused state for it can cause a
> spontaneous combustion if left in the open, but this is rare. Julio
> Giulietti used to hide his sheets from the fire inspectors as in his
> state, as it was not permitted to exist. I do not have that problem
> here. The strange part of all this is that once the celluloid is on
> accordions, the fire inspectors overlook any dangers. (Btw, It is a
> misnomer that celluloid affects the rusting of reeds of the accordion)
>
>
> Cellulose acetate is soluble in acetone as has been mentioned. Walter
> D. requested the know-how of placing celluloid on accordions and all
> that particulars leading up to that process. Rashid entered his
> disclosure of how the Russians did it, and I'm certain something was
> lost in that observation. The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water.
> This is placed in various sized metal containers with lids, the sizes
> dependent upon the size of the piece of celluloid one must use to cover
> the treble or bass section. The piece must be larger than needed for
> shrinkage will happen. Enough solution must be in the tank to cover the
> celluloid piece. What procedure is used is according to the worker.
> Hohner workers basically wasted material by softening large pieces and
> throwing it over the entire treble section and then cutting off the
> excess. (I've watched them) That's why you see there are no seams on a
> Hohner (unless it's an old one).
> The celluloid is placed I the solution and a time must pass to where
> the celluloid has softened and is pliable like rubber. Atmospheric
> conditions affect this time quality so I cannot specify that. The
> accordion must be prepared with an adhesive to hold the oncoming
> celluloid. I've used Barge's as it was the best during this era. In
> past year's it was a type of acetone glue, but one had to be careful
> with it. You then take the softened celluloid sheet and place it where
> you intended and slightly stretch it on and tack it at the edges.
> Normally, you must turn the corner with the softened celluloid to allow
> for shrinkage as it dries...in 4-5 days. Again, atmospheric conditions
> are still playing a part in this process. Once dry, you now sand the
> surface starting with about a 600 grit or greater and must be careful
> for this thickness you're working on is only .300" so you're looking to
> make the surface smooth and leave the rest to the large buffer using
> two compounds----cutting and polish. It's work and a lot of it. In time
> you'll be talking with your doctor about lung problems and chronic
> bronchitis. And so you have it, Walter. Surely if you compare what I've
> written to what you felt was correct before, you'll see the difference.
> You gave that one five stars. And to continue with a bit more....
>
> Johann Pascher stated:
> <<
> "I did discuses this with different accordion builders ad the all agree
> that in the long run it will be hard to find suppliers for celluloid,
> and the day may come that it is not possible to work with this type of
> material at all, because of European low.
>
>
> I'll do you one better. As time passes, it will hard to find accordion
> factories as the instrument continues to lose it's mass popularity in
> favor of electronics. Look at the age group that is maintaining sales
> both new and old. Youngsters were once found predominately in teaching
> studios. Now its oldsters. I've experienced the height and decline of
> this instrument, as I started learning the accordion in 1939 and began
> teaching in 1953. I read about the how it's 'coming back' but this is
> marketing hype to encourage sales and maybe a few to learn. This would
> be nice but the world has changed in its desires. Even symphonies are
> expiring. The composers today are not scoring for live orchestras but
> for electronic 'virtual' instruments and effects. The movies and TV
> producers prefer this and encourage it for it eliminates costs in
> hiring musicians. The composer of the future will be a fellow at a
> keyboard and computer with sampled sounds and a sequencer and recording
> direct to CD. Its that now but not entirely....yet. And yes, there will
> be those who are purist at heart and want to learn and excel in an
> instrument. But they will be in the minority.
>
> --
> Stephen J. Navoyosky
>
> SNAVO...@neo.rr.com
>
ginny
snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
- <summarize for usenet - very nice article primarily on the effects of
materials on accordion sound. I don't know how to link you to find it.>
> In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only
> the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
> Since I am familiar with a clarinet having minored in college on one
> and performed later on, I have to differ with this. Metal clarinets,
> plastic clarinets, and wood clarinets all sport their own
> sound.....again by it's vibrating material.
I would certainly agree that in practice metal, plastic and wood
clarinets have identifiable sounds this could in fact be the case. It
is certainly debated. Somewhere I had encountered some physicist's
explanation of why it didn't matter. I would not know for myself and
despite convincing articles I still believe that blindfolded I could
tell by the sound.
Thank you for all the information, I've understood most of it but will
reread it later as well. I will keep it for my 'archives' as I did your
information on staccatto and bellows.
snavo...@neo.rr.com
<<
snavoyo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
- <summarize for usenet - very nice article primarily on the effects of
materials on accordion sound. I don't know how to link you to find it.>
> In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only
> the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
> Since I am familiar with a clarinet having minored in college on one
> and performed later on, I have to differ with this. Metal clarinets,
> plastic clarinets, and wood clarinets all sport their own
> sound.....again by it's vibrating material.
I would certainly agree that in practice metal, plastic and wood
clarinets have identifiable sounds this could in fact be the case. It
is certainly debated. Somewhere I had encountered some physicist's
explanation of why it didn't matter. I would not know for myself and
despite convincing articles I still believe that blindfolded I could
tell by the sound.
>>
I'm sure you could too. Regardless of their findings and debates I feel
they fail to recognize the vibrating qualities given off by the
material used. The harmonics of metal far surpasses that of wood for
one point. The embouchure is a contributing factor too is the producing
sound. And the reed. This reminds of a past situation, Ginny:
At one camp in the Army I was chief arranger and I also worked the
clarinet in the marching/concert bands. We had a problem getting Bb
clarinet reeds until there were none to be had. To save the day, we
used Eb clarinet reeds. Now they do fit and work well--so well that
they gave us a loud projecting quality on the field. In concert? Not
the best. Once in my home area, I tried to get the high school band
directors to try this gem and bring out those clarinets in their
marching bands...to no avail.
Now I'll say this much about the Eb reeds. You have to control them
like an oboe reed...meaning you can work the pitch up and down a little
bit.
<<
Thank you for all the information, I've understood most of it but will
reread it later as well. I will keep it for my 'archives' as I did your
information on staccatto and bellows.
>>
--
Stephen J. Navoyosky
Theodore M. Kloba
> The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water.
We've discussed the health and safety considerations for the Cellulose
itself, but what about the acetone? I know they've stopped usng it in
nail polish remover, since that regularly comes in contatct with the
user's skin.
> Once dry, you now sand the
> surface starting with about a 600 grit or greater and must be careful
In my discussions with John Bernhardt (of Star Concertina in Chicago),
he stated that cabinet scrapers were used in his shop, similar to what
Johann has described, followed up with buffing as you described.
> I'll do you one better. As time passes, it will hard to find accordion
> factories as the instrument continues to lose it's mass popularity in
> favor of electronics.
Yes, and the builders that survive will be making small quantities of
highly-customized instruments. "Production models" may continue to
come from China.
> I read about the how it's 'coming back' but this is
> marketing hype to encourage sales and maybe a few to learn.
As long as there are a few, it can support some kind of industry.
ginny
Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
> snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
> As long as there are a few, it can support some kind of industry.
I think there will be some accordionists coming along, it has actually
become cool to a small number of extremely hip 20-30 years old here on
the West Coast, the sort who go to Burning Man. Also, the little group
I'm learning accordion with are younger than I, all former marching
band kids, now engineers for Apple (most of them anyway) working on the
Ipod players. Under thirty and not that hip, but very saavy and
admirable to the 19 year old drummer. One of them is starting
accordion, sort of waiting for the summer though and they all were in
awe of the cleverness of the Stradella system. It's not likely to be
what it was many years ago ever again, but I think there'll always be a
few who appreciate it.
Theodore M. Kloba
> I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the
> casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that
> the reeds rest on and that sort of thing.
There are a few other parameters that are often overlooked that I've
experimented with and found to make a difference as well:
*The material type and thickness of the pads on the pallets. I think
accordions use a felt/leather combination that's about 0.1" thick.
Bandoneons use a thin leather only pad that's 0.03"-0.05" thick.
That's why the pallets need to be hinged to ensure a tight seal is
maintained as the material becomes compressed over time.
*Material type and thickness of the valveboard in combination with the
base of the reedblock. In bandoneons and many chemnitzers (some bayans
too?), there is no base to the reedblock. Incidentally (Tom Tonon
chime in if you're around) this also affects pitch, which is why a
reedblock outside the instrument on a tuning bellows will sound at a
slightly different pitch from what it will inside the instrument.
*How the reedblocks are attached to the valveboard. Again in
bandoneons and many chemnitzers, they are glued directly down.
*Surface and resonant properties of materials under the grille,
including all metal, wood, etc.
I find it amusing when accordion enthusiasts and English-construction
concertina enthusiasts say that Chemnitzers sound like accordions. To
me, only the lowest-quality ones do.
> In clarinets the actual
> material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the
> finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
I believe this to be true if you measure the sound at the bell of the
instrument with a close microphone in an anechoic laboratory. However,
in a real listening situation the material of the instrument (along
with the performers clothing and lots of other things) become part of
the "room" and affect the sound.
Johann Pascher
Nothing to add really, and the remaining question is not really one.
> That surprises me. Why not cover the corners at the same time with the
same sheet?
The answer is because the changed the order of building cases, so the
frame and the soundboard are not one part at the time the Celluloid is
applied.
(Keyboard is also a removable part, coated on its own. )
May be the would prefer to do it the other way if the still could.
The only build diatonic boxes and the fast majority is made without
Celluloid cover.
If you go to there website and have a look at the models you would notice.
The are the only one who do it this way as far as I know.
http://www.strasser-harmonikas.com/img/harmonikas_gross/profi-alpenbl_4rhg.jpg
best regards, Johann
snavo...@neo.rr.com schrieb:
> Johann Pascher wrote:
>
>
> HI, Stephen!
>
> I am glad you came up and explained all very well, you can do this much
> better as me!
> >(Btw, It is a misnomer that celluloid affects the rusting of reeds
> of the accordion)
> Yes may be, you must know this better.
> If steel is kept in a close condition to Celluloid in a container
> without air exchange it encourages the rust. That is what I noticed.
>
>
>
> And you are correct in your finding. For example, if you place
> celluloid in a plastic bag with steel that has been 'protected' by oil,
> you will find the rusting process progresses very fast.
>
>
> <<
> On accordions that are in use it should not be any problem.
> May be you do have some Accordions not in use for a very long time in a
> closed case so you would know if there are any negative effects on the
> reed tongues.
>
>
> I have never noticed any problems in this way. I do control atmospheric
> conditions however at a constant 70 degrees Fahrenheit, and 45%
> humidity.
>
>
> <<
> >The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water
>
> Yes, this is about the mixture. I did not mention because there are
> different Acetone in trade here the all already have some water in it.
>
>
>
> When I speak of Acetone it is always in pure form. Diluted forms are
> not really acetone. This is like 'actual' ammonia vs. the household
> type which 'contains' ammonia. Alcohol is another chemical shops must
> watch for they come in percentage strengths. I use various strengths of
> this staring with 200%
>
> <<
> The rest of the explanation is about the same as I know how to do it.
> Some differences remain we don't use any sanding we use only metal
> scrapers. If sanding is used it has to be done with water and down to a
> very fine grain before it can be polished.
>
>
>
> Sanding assists in working the curves such as found on the Galleria or
> grille. I have made grilles in celluloid covered aluminum and those
> made by my grille heaters which are strictly celluloid.
>
>
> <<
> Acetone celluloid solution is usually not used to stick the sheet to
> the case here. If the celluloid is softened the right amount it sticks
> to the case surface without adding any solution.
>
>
>
> If I misled you in that solution, I apologize. It is an adhesive
> containing a slight bit of acetone to make sure of adhesion to the
> wood. Yes, I am familiar with the direct application to wood--but---the
> past has shown that it doesn't adhere as well. Case in point are many
> older German accordions where the seams are now loose. In either case,
> the material must be softened first.
>
>
> <<
> On the other hand I have seen it this way at Strasser where the do glue
> the sheets to the case without pulling a larger very soft sheet over
> the corners.
>
>
> That surprises me. Why not cover the corners at the same time with the
> same sheet?
>
>
> <<
> (SNIP)
>
>
> Best regards, Johann
Theodore M. Kloba
> In 1952, I had Excelsior build according to my specifications and my
> pallets do not have felt but surgical sponge and they have been there
> since 1952 without crumbling. There's "secret" to this as to why and it
> goes further into my design and specs.
What's the difference in sound? Is your instrument with the sponge
brighter or mellower than one with felt?
>> *Material type and thickness of the valveboard in combination with the
>> base of the reedblock.
> If you except this, then explain how a Hohner with a thin cardboard
> shoe will sound certain off-pitch reeds inside the box but not on the
> provino. Explain too how some reeds are identical in pitch inside or
> outside the instrument on some brands.
I guess I should have said that in *some cases* it affects pitch. I've
made it happen in my shop, and I know that Tom Tonon's pitch bending
system works by changing the reedblock geometry.
>> *How the reedblocks are attached to the valveboard. Again in
>> bandoneons and many chemnitzers, they are glued directly down.
>
> Accordions, melodeons, etc., have also had this feature for many many
> years in the past but only to allow the air to pour into both banks of
> reeds instead of separate compartments. Whenever the foundation was
> wood, this was done also to provide amplitude as well as reed
> responsiveness.
Funny thing is that in Chemnitzers, the instruments with glued down
reedblocks tend to be louder and more responsive than those with
removable blocks screwed and gasketed to the valveboard.
>> *Surface and resonant properties of materials under the grille,
>> including all metal, wood, etc.
> Are you speaking of Bandoneon or Accordion here?
I guess both, and also English-construction concertinas, where a
metal-ended instrument sounds much differently than a wooden-ended one.
Interesting note: Back in 1911, when Ernest Glass described his
aluminum action (for chemnitzer concertinas) in what would become US
Patent 1,024,771, one of his stated benefits was that the aluminum
levers did not muffle the tone as much as the wooden ones.
> Bandoneon kept it's sound and I salute them for it.
More on this further down...
>> I find it amusing when accordion enthusiasts and English-construction
>> concertina enthusiasts say that Chemnitzers sound like accordions. To
>> me, only the lowest-quality ones do.
>
> As in the 'eyes of the beholder' so shall it be...the 'ears of the
> beholder.'
I didn't mean this to put down accordions; I just meant to say (as you
did for Bandoneons) that the best Chemnitzer concertinas are the ones
that have kept their unique sound, neither like the accordion which
shares some construction details nor like the Anglo concertina which
shares its name and core keyboard layout.
Also, I think some builders who introduced accordion construction
methods to Chemnitzers did so as a cost-saving measure. It's likely
they saved cost in other areas at the same time and the instruments
suffered.
Ike
<snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1141840863.2...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
>> snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
>> > The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water.
>>
> technician. It takes money to run a factory and it's now at a point
> that only special orders are being filled and no stock development.
> Maybe not everywhere, but you can see this when the industry is being
> moved to Asian countries as a salvation. So I predict that you'll find
> the repair/rebuild man 're-baptizing' (except Ike) older-better
> accordions and keeping things alive that way. The factories will be no
> more. This Asia thing is the last harrah.
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
Except Ike? Ike doe s this work a lot. Ike has right now a 1930's vintage
Hohner 4/5 with single palm switch done at bargain rate for dude in NY state
with new valve pads, wax and reed valves and new bellows made not by Galassi
but by an exclusive Italian bellows maker who usues classsic cardboard not
the recycled reinforced stuff Galassi uses. Ike also plays a restored
1930's Scandalli Salerno model with new bellows and 2 toggle palm switches
tuned French Musette LMMM using a spreadsheet of cents vs. hz to get the
beats exactly right. Ike also has a Lubas button box and a 1930's
Italo-American 4/5 next in line as well as some treble tuning of a 32 bass
vintage Hohner with hand-made reeds. Ike helps people buy new accordions at
least a 20% discount (mostly Chinese Hohners) who can't afford to have old
accordions rebuilt or don't have one to rebuild. Ike will eventually stop
taking restoration jobs to concentrate on fixing up his own vintage
accordions.
Now you mention a last Hurrah. Steve, dude, I have been very patient in
glancing over your pontifications about the accordion industry, and your
self-aggradizing rehash of your career. Too bad a person with as much
knowledge to contribute about accordions, instead chooses to make a new
career as an economist and social anthropologist.
I don't think there is any trend except the trend that you and I have the
power to make or break. These so-called trends are the result of being
distracted by commercial and cultural phenomena, like buying a lot of glitzy
stuff and conspicuous consumption of things you don't need and wasting time
paying attention to the entertainment media, and being hypnotized by bogus
ideology and psuedo-religious fakery. Slef-importance is the prime
psychological price you pay when you participate in worthless culture. So
get off your ass and change the world.
--
www.1accordion.net
Ike Milligan
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> Hi, Stephen!
(SNIP)
> http://www.strasser-harmonikas.com/img/harmonikas_gross/profi-alpenbl_4rhg.jpg
>
> best regards, Johann
Thank you, Johann. A picture is worth a thousand words.
That's quite a handsome instrument.
DoN. Nichols
> ginny wrote:
> > I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the
> > casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that
> > the reeds rest on and that sort of thing.
[ ... ]
> *The material type and thickness of the pads on the pallets. I think
> accordions use a felt/leather combination that's about 0.1" thick.
> Bandoneons use a thin leather only pad that's 0.03"-0.05" thick.
> That's why the pallets need to be hinged to ensure a tight seal is
> maintained as the material becomes compressed over time.
English construction concertinas have, for a very long time (at
least since 1850, the earliest instruments which I have personally
examined) used (counting out from the valve hole):
1) A very thin soft leather (moleskin, I believe, in some
instruments at least.
2) Lamb's wool felt, to allow the leather freedom to conform to
the shape of the valve hole.
3) Heavy cardboard (akin to what is called "posterboard" in the US,
at least.)
4) A small disc of a very soft suede like leather in the center
of the back of the circular pads, to allow the pad flexibility
to align with the valve hole. (This serves the function of the
hinges mentioned elsewhere.)
5) I donut of hard leather screwed onto the end of the lever
(which in early instruments was a brass or bronze wire flattened
to make the levers), with threads on the end of the lever. This
is glued into the center of the small disc of suede mentioned
in (4) above.
[ ... ]
> I find it amusing when accordion enthusiasts and English-construction
> concertina enthusiasts say that Chemnitzers sound like accordions. To
> me, only the lowest-quality ones do.
At a first approximation, they do, in that accordions and
Chemnitzers have multiple reeds per button, making some degree of beat
note -- "wet" or "dry" (I believe that "wet" is called "wave tuned" in
the Chemnitzer world.)
English construction concertinas (with a very few individual
exceptions) have a single reed per button per direction, so they lack
this, except when someone intentionally sounds two notes an octave
apart, or sounds identical notes at the same time, such as D# and Eb
(which are *far* from identical in the early brass reed instruments --
something like 7-1/2 cents sharp and flat of the chromatic note, but
they thus produce much more pure chords when used with the right notes
than is possible with chromatic tuning.)
Enjoy,
DoN
ginny
DoN. Nichols wrote:
> According to Theodore M. Kloba <hey...@yahoo.com>:
> > ginny wrote:
> > > I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the
> > > casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that
> > > the reeds rest on and that sort of thing.
>
I truely appreciate you and all the posters sharing this with me. I'm
will print most of it out and read it carefully. My husband is
interested as well, but does not wish to join a newsgroup or whatever
the correct name is for this. Thank you.
DoN. Nichols
> Johann Pascher wrote:
[ ... ]
> When I speak of Acetone it is always in pure form. Diluted forms are
> not really acetone. This is like 'actual' ammonia vs. the household
> type which 'contains' ammonia. Alcohol is another chemical shops must
> watch for they come in percentage strengths. I use various strengths of
> this staring with 200%
One minor quibble here. I don't see the possibility of 200% of
*any* substance. However, if you are talking about ethyl alcohol, it is
commonly rated in "proof", with 200 proof being equal to 100%. (And a
true "200 proof"/100% is very difficult to prepare, and even more
difficult to preserve, as it is quite hygroscopic -- it will quickly
absorb water from the air.
And, I understand that anything between 190 proof and 200 proof
is likely to have some very nasty components as a side effect of the
distillation process, so generally, for internal consumption purposes,
190 proof is pretty much the top which is safe.
Enjoy,
DoN.
DoN. Nichols
>
> Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
> > snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
>
>
> > As long as there are a few, it can support some kind of industry.
[ ... ]
> I'm learning accordion with are younger than I, all former marching
> band kids, now engineers for Apple (most of them anyway) working on the
> Ipod players.
> and they all were in
> awe of the cleverness of the Stradella system.
The mechanism in a Stradella is something which would especially
impress one who works with computer hardware. I've long described it as
a "mechanical ROM" (Read Only Memory). It can even be re-programmed to
implement free bass or other elaborate systems.
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> According to snavo...@neo.rr.com <snavo...@neo.rr.com>:
> > Johann Pascher wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > When I speak of Acetone it is always in pure form. Diluted forms are
> > not really acetone. This is like 'actual' ammonia vs. the household
> > type which 'contains' ammonia. Alcohol is another chemical shops must
> > watch for they come in percentage strengths. I use various strengths of
> > this staring with 200%
>
> One minor quibble here. I don't see the possibility of 200% of
> *any* substance. However, if you are talking about ethyl alcohol, it is
> commonly rated in "proof", with 200 proof being equal to 100%. (And a
> true "200 proof"/100% is very difficult to prepare, and even more
> difficult to preserve, as it is quite hygroscopic -- it will quickly
> absorb water from the air.
>
> And, I understand that anything between 190 proof and 200 proof
> is likely to have some very nasty components as a side effect of the
> distillation process, so generally, for internal consumption purposes,
> 190 proof is pretty much the top which is safe.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
Quibble as you will, you are correct. 200 proof, and so I'll quibble a
bit and add "denatured" ethyl alcohol. My supplier is a drugist so that
I may have the best in substance and container.
I have no problems keeping it preserved.
Steve Navoyosky
Theodore M. Kloba
> The mechanism in a Stradella is something which would especially
> impress one who works with computer hardware. I've long described it as
> a "mechanical ROM" (Read Only Memory). It can even be re-programmed to
> implement free bass or other elaborate systems.
I have one that was programmed (at a factory in Ganinsk, USSR, ca.
1930) as a Garmoshka. Perfect little stradella mechanism, but
completely different layout.
Pete Young
> *any* substance. However, if you are talking about ethyl alcohol, it is
> commonly rated in "proof", with 200 proof being equal to 100%. (And a
> true "200 proof"/100% is very difficult to prepare, and even more
> difficult to preserve, as it is quite hygroscopic -- it will quickly
> absorb water from the air.
In the UK 100% pure alcohol is called 'Alcohol 100' . It needs to be
specially licenced by HM Customs and Excise, so you can't buy it over
the counter.
I once had occasion to obtain some of this stuff legitimately - it was
required to clean some lead glass windows prior to thier installation in
a nuclear reprocessing plant. It too some time before we were able to
persuade HM C&E that British Nuclear Fuels could be trusted to handle
it securely!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Young pe...@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
Ike
"Theodore M. Kloba" <hey...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141869637.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
CBA's is used humorously, since it's usual meaning is a DBA.
Ike
<snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1141868583.0...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Ike wrote:
>
> <snavoyo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1141840863.2...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
>>> > The solution is 50% acetone and 50% water.
>
>> The last stages or the demise of any instrument is the repair/rebuild
>> technician. It takes money to run a factory and it's now at a point
>> that only special orders are being filled and no stock development.
>> Maybe not everywhere, but you can see this when the industry is being
>> moved to Asian countries as a salvation. So I predict that you'll find
>> the repair/rebuild man 're-baptizing' (except Ike) older-better
>> accordions and keeping things alive that way. The factories will be no
>> more. This Asia thing is the last harrah.
>
>> Steve Navoyosky
>
> Except Ike? Ike doe s this work a lot.
>>>
>
>
> My reference was to the word "re-baptizing" as you've mentioned your
> anti-religion thoughts when you consistently spoke against my decision
> to help missionaries by liquidating my stock at a nominal fee. It was a
> pun.
>
>
> <<
> Now you mention a last Hurrah. Steve, dude, I have been very patient in
> glancing over your pontifications about the accordion industry, and
> your self-aggradizing rehash of your career. Too bad a person with as
> much knowledge to contribute about accordions, instead chooses to make
> a new career as an economist and social anthropologist.
>>>
>
>
> this group, among other negative talk about me.
>
> Ike, dude, you can also take your 'pontifications' about being the
> world's greatest tuner with no career or education and just killfire
> all my postings. Surely you read what I wrote to Walter. If you missed
> it, I'll paste it here for you:
>
I have not indulged in negative talk about your expertise on technical
matters, at least not in my recent memory. The reason I mentioned religion,
which I was not the first to bring up, since you mentioned it to W.D. as the
reason he could not have the accordion he wanted.(and he may have wanted it
for his own religious celebrations, for all I know). I will say again that I
would not help missionaries beond what I would do for any customer. I don't
think that is a smart remark. There may have been smart remarks in other
threads about the missionaries' alleged position on various topics. You
should obsess less about those things.
Theodore M. Kloba
> Garmoshka is Russian for Accordion. Often the term when applied to PA's or
> CBA's is used humorously, since it's usual meaning is a DBA.
Yes, it means "accordion", but I was referring specifically to the
25x25 diatonic, unisonoric layout, a.k.a. Hromka
FWIW, in the (Russian-language) catalogs of at least two manufacturers,
They use "Bajani" for the CBAs, "Akkordeoni" for the PAs, and "Garmoni"
for the DBAs.
If your newsreader can handle Unicode, that's "Баяни",
"Аккордеони" and "Гармони."
snavo...@neo.rr.com
(SNIP)
>The reason I mentioned religion, which I was not the first to bring up, since you mentioned it >to W.D. as the reason he could not have the accordion he wanted.(and he may have wanted >it for his own religious celebrations, for all I know). I will say again that I would not help >missionaries beond what I would do for any customer. I don't think that is a smart remark. >There may have been smart remarks in other threads about the missionaries' alleged position >on various topics. You should obsess less about those things.
Not to belabor this, Ike, but I said nothing at all to Walter before
you chimed in about missionaries, religion being a fantasy, "Amen",
etc., on a repeated basis (ad naseum) and the fact that you took
exception with my dealings with a church regarding disposal of my
stock.
It was Tommy Memphis who revealed what I was doing---to Walter. I
wasn't even posting at that time. Re-read the thread that Walter
started but removed his lead post. And note the many times you couldn't
let go of knocking religion. I said nothing until you brought it
up---once more.
How I dispose of my stock and to whom, is my business alone. And for
the benefit of all, please learn to say 'something' and not just have
'something to say.'
Steve Navoyosky
Theodore M. Kloba
> If your newsreader can handle Unicode, that's "Баяни",
> "Аккордеони" and "Гармони."
Duh... that should be "Аккордеоны" and "Баяны".
Ike
<snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1141922648.3...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Ike wrote:
> (SNIP)
>>The reason I mentioned religion, which I was not the first to bring up,
>>since you mentioned it >to W.D. as the reason he could not have the
>>accordion he wanted.(and he may have wanted >it for his own religious
>>celebrations, for all I know). I will say again that I would not help
>> >missionaries beond what I would do for any customer. I don't think that
>>is a smart remark. >There may have been smart remarks in other threads
>>about the missionaries' alleged position >on various topics. You should
>>obsess less about those things.
>
> Not to belabor this, Ike, but I said nothing at all to Walter before
> you chimed in about missionaries, religion being a fantasy, "Amen",
> etc., on a repeated basis (ad naseum) and the fact that you took
> exception with my dealings with a church regarding disposal of my
> stock.
>
was the reasoning for not selling the accordion to Walter being that you
were helping a church. Now how would anyone know that unless you told them?
It was entirely your business before you let it become controversial.
> It was Tommy Memphis who revealed what I was doing---to Walter. I
> wasn't even posting at that time.
OK. So how did he know about it? It's your responsibility to keep your
business provate. Why did you reveal it to an idiot like T.M. or who did you
tell about it?
Re-read the thread that Walter
> started but removed his lead post. And note the many times you couldn't
> let go of knocking religion. I said nothing until you brought it
> up---once more.
>
I think you brought it up once more with your lam,e reference to baptism
which I didn't get, at first. And in the same breath you said I made smart
remarks. I am not in the group to talk about religion but about reapiring
squeezeboxes. Why I brought it up was that it was a part of the controversy
about an accordion that W.D. wanted and couldn't have because it was sold
for a pittance to missionaries. I didn't spill the beans about that.
> How I dispose of my stock and to whom, is my business alone. And for
> the benefit of all, please learn to say 'something' and not just have
> 'something to say.'
>
Well not to belabor the point but you often give the impression that you are
holding back information about accordion repair on your theory that it is
your intellectual property, at the same time complaining that accordions are
less poplular than they were. Or are you just gloating about he old days and
how you got more out of life than people are getting now?
snavo...@neo.rr.com
<<
I took no exception to your dealings with a church. What I took
3xception to
was the reasoning for not selling the accordion to Walter being that
you
were helping a church. Now how would anyone know that unless you told
them?
It was entirely your business before you let it become controversial.
>>
Don't be ignorant and just read all the posts in that thread and
another thread.....especially your posts and see just how you behaved
with your anti-religious remarks and all based on the missionaries and
me. You DID take exception to my dealings and you have no right to.
Grow up, Ike.
Walter and I had no dealings at all regarding ANY accordion. You have a
knack for creating things that didn't happen, just to justify your
actions.
<<
> It was Tommy Memphis who revealed what I was doing---to Walter. I
> wasn't even posting at that time.
OK. So how did he know about it? It's your responsibility to keep your
business provate. Why did you reveal it to an idiot like T.M. or who
did you
tell about it?
>>
What a jerk you're turning into. Have you ever heard of customer
courtesy? That idiot you so 'politely' refer to is an old friend of
mine as well as my former accordion student, and former
composition/arranging student. He has a music background in Nashville
that would choke you, and yet you have the audacity to discredit
yourself on this newsgroup in front of the world. You profess to be a
professional. You profess to have thirty years repair experience but
believe me when I say that you haven't shown much intelligence in your
discussions. After thirty years and you still ask questions about
things you SHOULD have known. And now you come after me strictly on
supposition once more. Why do you insist on revealing your ignorance
and bad attitude?
(snip)
<<
Why I brought it up was that it was a part of the controversy
about an accordion that W.D. wanted and couldn't have because it was
sold
for a pittance to missionaries. I didn't spill the beans about that.
>>
You're all screwed up, Ike. W.D.didn't want an accordion from me. Tommy
did, but it was sold and ready for pickup. I honored that contract with
the missionaries and Tommy commended me for that instead of me pulling
the box for him and replacing it for another accordion. Got it straight
now?
<<
> How I dispose of my stock and to whom, is my business alone. And for
> the benefit of all, please learn to say 'something' and not just have
> 'something to say.'
Well not to belabor the point but you often give the impression that
you are
holding back information about accordion repair on your theory that it
is
your intellectual property, at the same time complaining that
accordions are
less poplular than they were. Or are you just gloating about he old
days and
how you got more out of life than people are getting now?
>>
That's my right, Ike. I can say or not say what I want. You can't
demand that I divulge nor threaten me into it. This group is called
"Recreation Music Makers Squeezebox" meaning it has to do with the
enjoyment to make music on any free reed. It's to make music, learn the
instrument tips, get sheet music, and all for recreation. It is not
solely a place to learn how to take apart your instrument and rebuild
it....or a place where 'you' can learn how to do repairs for free. For
crying out loud, you've stated everywhere how experienced you are with
30 years and yet you still don't know things? Are you still practicing
on other players instruments in order to learn?
You emailed me with some ridiculous demands about me 'sharing' and I'll
not bring those up now.....but I am preparing an answer to you by
return email.
Ike
<snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1141949844....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Ike wrote:
>
> <<
> I took no exception to your dealings with a church. What I took
> 3xception to
> was the reasoning for not selling the accordion to Walter being that
> you
> were helping a church. Now how would anyone know that unless you told
> them?
> It was entirely your business before you let it become controversial.
>>>
>
> Don't be ignorant and just read all the posts in that thread and
> another thread.....especially your posts and see just how you behaved
> with your anti-religious remarks and all based on the missionaries and
> me. You DID take exception to my dealings and you have no right to.
> Grow up, Ike.
> Walter and I had no dealings at all regarding ANY accordion. You have a
> knack for creating things that didn't happen, just to justify your
> actions.
>
>
> <<
>> It was Tommy Memphis who revealed what I was doing---to Walter. I
>> wasn't even posting at that time.
>
>
> OK. So how did he know about it? It's your responsibility to keep your
> business provate. Why did you reveal it to an idiot like T.M. or who
> did you
> tell about it?
>>>
>
> What a jerk you're turning into. Have you ever heard of customer
> courtesy? That idiot you so 'politely' refer to is an old friend of
You are saying he isn't an idiot. I don't know his background but judging
from his posts he is one.
> mine as well as my former accordion student, and former
> composition/arranging student. He has a music background in Nashville
> that would choke you, and yet you have the audacity to discredit
> yourself on this newsgroup in front of the world. You profess to be a
I haven't heard his work, and i haven't any need to at this point. If you
say he is a great musician, I'll have to let it go at that.
> professional. You profess to have thirty years repair experience but
> believe me when I say that you haven't shown much intelligence in your
> discussions. After thirty years and you still ask questions about
> things you SHOULD have known. And now you come after me strictly on
Examples? Or strawman argument.
> supposition once more. Why do you insist on revealing your ignorance
> and bad attitude?
>
I didn't read the posts thoroughly, and never will. I do recall Walter was
complaining about an accordion he could not buy, and there was an accordion
sold to missionaries. And I do recall he killfiled idiot needling him
constantly about some ccordion that someone wanted that he gave or sold to a
realtive after listing it on ebay. You are getting less credible all the
time, by defending a jerk provocateur.
>
> (snip)
> <<
> Why I brought it up was that it was a part of the controversy
> about an accordion that W.D. wanted and couldn't have because it was
> sold
> for a pittance to missionaries. I didn't spill the beans about that.
>>>
>
>
> You're all screwed up, Ike. W.D.didn't want an accordion from me. Tommy
> did, but it was sold and ready for pickup. I honored that contract with
> the missionaries and Tommy commended me for that instead of me pulling
> the box for him and replacing it for another accordion. Got it straight
> now?
>
> <<
>> How I dispose of my stock and to whom, is my business alone. And for
>> the benefit of all, please learn to say 'something' and not just have
>> 'something to say.'
>
If it's your business alone, I suggest you have it with more discreet
individuals than that.
> Well not to belabor the point but you often give the impression that
> you are
> holding back information about accordion repair on your theory that it
> is
> your intellectual property, at the same time complaining that
> accordions are
> less poplular than they were. Or are you just gloating about he old
> days and
> how you got more out of life than people are getting now?
>>>
>
> That's my right, Ike. I can say or not say what I want. You can't
> demand that I divulge nor threaten me into it. This group is called
Oh? And now we see your paranoia coming out full force. If I threatened you
you should report me, but you won't and can't because I didn't.
> "Recreation Music Makers Squeezebox" meaning it has to do with the
> enjoyment to make music on any free reed. It's to make music, learn the
> instrument tips, get sheet music, and all for recreation. It is not
> solely a place to learn how to take apart your instrument and rebuild
> it....or a place where 'you' can learn how to do repairs for free. For
> crying out loud, you've stated everywhere how experienced you are with
> 30 years and yet you still don't know things? Are you still practicing
> on other players instruments in order to learn?
One can never know everything there is to know. I am proud o the fact that i
continue to learn and improve. Also I try to give advice of what I have
learned in such a way as to encourage others to learn, and to respect the
work of those makers who went before. I don't claim to have definitive
knowledge. I do nothing more than communicate what has worked for me. And
always trying to improve.
> You emailed me with some ridiculous demands about me 'sharing' and I'll
> not bring those up now.....but I am preparing an answer to you by
> return email.
I never emailed you privately and I just now searched my inbox to make sure
of that; it might be a spoof or a forgery. What was the date and time. Can I
see a copy with headers? Please forward this email to
accordi...@mindspring.com. Remove the XYZ.
ginny
accordion related stuff... unpleasant comments abound>
I really was hoping that more discussion of the practices used for
making accordions and the properties of materials used would go on. I
was so enjoying that.
Ike
<snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1141949844....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Ike wrote:
>
> <<
>> You emailed me with some ridiculous demands about me 'sharing' and I'll
> not bring those up now.....but I am preparing an answer to you by
> return email.
> --
> Stephen J. Navoyosky
>
> SNAVO...@neo.rr.com
>
I regret that I will now add you to my killfile in the group
rec.music.makers.squeezebox. Arguing with you is taking up too much time and
it seems to me that you just don't "get it" anyway.
After text-searching my sent Items I only found one recent message that
contained the words share or sharing that I had written to you privately.
This was sent privately in error. I hit the wrong send button. I have
snipped the parts that are repeated in the public message I was replying to.
I apologize for the confusion and BTW <PLONK>
Here is the text from thursday March 9, 2006, 6:56 A.M. Eastern time:
----- Original Message -----
From: <snavo...@neo.rr.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Reed project day 1
> John C. (delete_this) wrote:
>> "w.d." <w...@snip.net> wrote in message
>> news:1141860305.3...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> Ricky, don't throw this wax away.
<snipped>
> I also cringe when I read about soaking the reeds in WD-40 or
> transmission oil. Such methods are not practical nor favorable or
> accepted practices. That's typical of the unknowing leading the
> innocent.
>
> Steve Navoyosky
>
You may criticize, but you are not offering an alternative. I have found the
method to be adequate for my purposes after having tried some other things.
It is certainly better than doing nothing about rust. So maybe people should
leave their bad accordions alone and always bring them to you? That's why
there are so many accordions in need of repair and one reason why the
accordion is less popular than it once was (a situation which you have
decried elsewhere in your posts). You can't act catty about your expertise
and refuse to share it and at the same time complain about a result of that
type of attitude.
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> Dear Steve:
> I regret that I will now add you to my killfile in the group
> rec.music.makers.squeezebox.
Thank you for finally honoring my request, Ike. I appreciate
it......but I'm sure this is nothing more than a public announcement to
misled. Your behavior of prompt reading and multiple posting (no work?)
shows that you cannot ignore learning something new. I know you will
continue to be reading my posts. If not from the Usenet side, then from
the Google side.
I must give thanks to you however and to all those that post on
construction and repair instead of making/talking accordion/free-reed
music. Since I have closed shop after 53 years in the business, I can
see a substantial monetary gain if I take the time to develop an
accurate and comprehensive accordion repair/rebuild/build/customize
manual. From all the texts that have been produced in the past, this
should be the best. I will leave nothing out....even my so-called
"secrets" for the benefit of Walter. As I will be relocating, this
project should keep me off the streets until it's complete and
published ....and then I can walk to the bank.
Since you have insisted I give away all I learned for free, Ike, I'm
going to give you the first copy, with my compliments. How's that for
sportmanship? Then maybe you can cease giving bad advice to the masses.
And you really should stop now for you look bad with some of your ideas
and use of materials.
When I posted on the celluloid, I stated in the beginning that I had
hoped the "Accordion War" newsgroup would return to RMMS...but it
didn't. No matter the effort, some things don't change,especially if
ignored. I learned from personal experience--and I know from studying
behaviour in college --that doing nothing, standing by, allows things
like that to happen...because its interprets passivity as approval, and
being a bystander even makes matters worse.
Steve
Russ Gray
<I can see a substantial monetary gain if I take the time to develop an
accurate and comprehensive accordion repair/rebuild/build/customize
manual. >
Russ
Johann Pascher
Steve wrote:
> I can see a substantial monetary gain if I take the time to develop an
> accurate and comprehensive accordion repair/rebuild/build/customize
> manual.
I really hope you already did star on it!
Because it is a long way to go if you write down all you know abut the
accordion building and repairing.
Perhaps you find some other people who also would contribute a few chapters.
And then you need to find someone who will print the book, i think you
will, is all a question how much you are willing to put into it in the
first place. I know quite a few people who did write books an other
subjects. The all did find a way to poultice the book with minor
problems. So most of then spent some years to write the book. I also
was tempted many time to start writing on a other Subject in the past
but i never started.
Best regards, Johann
snavo...@neo.rr.com
Johann Pascher wrote:
> Hi, Stephen!
>
> Steve wrote:
> > I can see a substantial monetary gain if I take the time to develop an
> > accurate and comprehensive accordion repair/rebuild/build/customize
> > manual.
>
> I really hope you already did star on it!
> Because it is a long way to go if you write down all you know abut the
> accordion building and repairing.
>>
Hello Johann. Yes, I started long ago jotting topics down, and pasting
topics I had addressed in posts here and other accordion groups like
Accordion Freedom Forum, and have them in a folder to develop them more
explicitly. Most accordion newsgroups discuss accordions, music, and
practice tips, with actually playing and the like. This one however is
more into the construction phases of technical natures instead of
musicianship. That's sad to see for we'll have everyone fixing
accordions and nobody playing them. (exaggerated of course)
>
<<
> Perhaps you find some other people who also would contribute a few chapters.
>>
There's only one or two left after me and generally speaking, a
technician is not interested in spending the time nor has the
communication skills to do it. They retire and that's it. This is one
reason why many workmanship skills (secrets) are lost here and why we
have so many 'hackers' here. In your location I can see a difference
from what you've mentioned. But I also see where certain skills have
been replaced there for easier and less costly ways, from your
discussions.
I was fortunate to take the opportunities and work beside many great
technicians/designers of the past who are now deceased. Emil Baldoni, a
bass machine wizard who brought forth Ace accordions, and who developed
many other accordion brands like Titano was one who I worked beside.
When it came to actually (authentic) handmade reed making, I learned
from the three generation Giulietti family...the originators of steel
reeds. And there have been other famous names that I chose to associate
with in order to learn the traditional way which taught the reasons for
doing things in such manner. Workmanship is the key in quality
accordion building---not mass production nor ease of work force. When
accordions are stamped out, they become commonplace.
I saw in another thread where you questioned reed grinding versus
filing. I believe you spoke of this in the creation of reed tongues.
Yes, it was done by hand with files in the beginning and I learned this
way too, for it told me more of the 'secrets' in design features and
what to expect in various sounds or timbres and amplitudes. But I'll
save all this for the manual....which will be quite large and not what
has been done before. But the grinding in making reeds today is not
what I refute for there is good basis for making them that way. What I
abhor is the 'grinding mutilator' who cares not about the outcome of
his so-called workmanship as long as he gets results. That sort of
outcome is the ruination of the reed tongue and sometimes the plate.
<<
> And then you need to find someone who will print the book, i think you
> will, is all a question how much you are willing to put into it in the
> first place.
>>
I already have a publisher and printer and will continue to use them.
That is the least of my concerns. Right it's formulating the material
into chapters and making each as concise and explicit as possible. I
was asked to do this years ago, but declined for I felt it would take
the place of a repairman and his vocation. But as time passed, I saw
more and more 'hackers' develop and then place their shingle out or
place a website on their own pretense of being 'professional' because
they thought well of themselves. I've seen many accordions of all
qualities actually mutilated by their efforts.
While a manual that I propose might serve to show the most complete and
comprehensive methods of doing the work, I am not that naive to expect
the 'hacker' to change his ways....as it may constitute actual work.
Some are settled in their ways.
However, as I have continued posting of 'proper' methods of tuning for
instance, it was reason for twofold:
1. To make the owner aware of safeguarding his reeds from "hackers",
and
2. By some slim chance, to actually turn the "hacker" mind in a
direction that will develop him into a professional craftsman.
Having a website with marketing hype or advertising elsewhere, does not
make a professional repairperson.
<<
I know quite a few people who did write books an other
> subjects. The all did find a way to poultice the book with minor
> problems. So most of then spent some years to write the book. I also
> was tempted many time to start writing on a other Subject in the past
> but i never started.
>
> Best regards, Johann
>>
--
Stephen J. Navoyosky
DoN. Nichols
Sometimes, the only solution (in an unmoderated newsgroup such
as this) is to killfile those who offend you. You may lose some
information, but you will gain a greater inner peace by not being
confronted with the squabbling.
Ike
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:581c5$441336c5$48f4e632$42...@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
> According to ginny <gins...@comcast.net>:
>> Usenet summary: < accordion elites battle about some not very
>> accordion related stuff... unpleasant comments abound>
>>
>> I really was hoping that more discussion of the practices used for
>> making accordions and the properties of materials used would go on. I
>> was so enjoying that.
>
> Sometimes, the only solution (in an unmoderated newsgroup such
> as this) is to killfile those who offend you. You may lose some
> information, but you will gain a greater inner peace by not being
> confronted with the squabbling.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
>
killfiled all those who were consistently wasting my time. I am going to
take Ginny out of the killfile to see if she has stopped posting like this
was a chat room. The only reason I put her in there was she implied I was
being a catankerous old fart for complaining about the way Google readers
were posting.
Johann Pascher
Can you recall witsh factories use files for tuning?
Would like to get an answer on this question.
As I did say I the first mail on this topic, I only know very few
fatorys today who don’t use grinders at all.
Pleas tell me if you definetly know of one who dot use grinders on reeds.
Best regards, Johann
-------------------------------
P.S.
In adution to files and scrapers I use sandpaper by hand or glued to a
wood stick.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corundum
Due to corundum's hardness (typically 9.0), it is commonly used as an
abrasive in machining, from huge machines to sandpaper. Emery is an
impure and less abrasive variety, with a Mohs hardness of 8.0.)
John's Musical
I inspect every new accordion that I receive and I check especially the
reeds.
In my findings - all new reeds were tuned by using the grinding tools.
Now, - when I tune the accordion I do not use a grinding tool for the simple
reason - the reeds being already tuned when an accordion was new (even fifty
years ago), so I use only the scraper because there is no need to take off
much ( material) and the scraper is just fine.
There is no need to use any more a grinder if you have to re-tune the reeds
maybe a few cents here and there.
Based on my finding, probably all factories making a new reed are using a
grinding tool to produce a new reed.
The only damage one can do by using a grinder is, -if one does not have any
experience in tuning the reeds and take off too much (material) and then try
to repair again that mistake and do it again and again - then the reeds are
junk.
I have seen also reeds have been butchered by using just a scraper and it
also looks awful.
In conclusion, in my opinion all reed manufactures are using grinders.
The only a truly hand made reeds are done by file, sand paper and a scraper.
How many do you see truly hand made reeds in nova days?
Regards,
John
"Johann Pascher" <j_pa...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:7zRQf.22$DZ3...@nntpserver.swip.net...
Johann Pascher
Fantastic!!!!! This is the sort of information that I was looking for!
Not that i personally need this Information, but may be some get a more
realistic few of the situation today.
some comments between the lines:
John's Musical schrieb:
> Hi Johann,
>
> I inspect every new accordion that I receive and I check especially >
> the reeds.
So if someone else also duos the same thing please let us know too!
> In my findings - all new reeds were tuned by using the grinding tools.
That is what i think too, perhaps there are some other individuals like
me who still do it for some reeds completely by hand.
> Now, - when I tune the accordion I do not use a grinding tool for the
> simple reason - the reeds being already tuned when an accordion was
> new (even fifty years ago), so I use only the scraper because there
is > no need to take off much ( material) and the scraper is just fine.
Yes, one should think twice before removing material in many cases there
are good reasons way the are off tune in the ayes of the one who
inspects the tuning.
We could start a new thread on only this, perhaps it would be a good
idea to list up all what comes in or mind on this, so newcomers would
not do a lot of tuning if there is not a real need to it.
>
> There is no need to use any more a grinder if you have to re-tune the
> reeds maybe a few cents here and there.
Sure, in most cases where it looks like the is much to retune something
else is wrong. Often reeds are much out of tune if the are already
cracked somewhere and the will fall apart very soon. But even this is
not a usual case.
Better would be to record all reeds and decide the average pitch and
even if then some reed are out of tune there may be a non standard
tuning scale in use what made this accordion special, and it my have
been intended in the first place.
An other thing is if the customer wants some change, one my talk to him
and find out if he has good reasons to do so. If the person who tunes a
instrument changes more as requested he may get in danger. Even if we
don’t like the sound we are not the one who makes the decision if we
don’t own the Instrument. If we own it we also my think twice before we
do some changes.
As said before we could star a new thread on it.
> Based on my finding, probably all factories making a new reed are
> using a grinding tool to produce a new reed.
I don’t know a Factory not using grinding belts in the first place.
for the customer pre tuning grinding stones on a rotary tools stationary
automated or manual use are in use.
Who knows about the Russians?
>
> The only damage one can do by using a grinder is, -if one does not
> have any experience in tuning the reeds and take off too much
> (material) and then try to repair again that mistake and do it again
> and again - then the reeds are junk.
Agree, i even cant imagine how on can tune piccolo reeds this way at all.
>
> I have seen also reeds have been butchered by using just a scraper
> and it also looks awful.
Yes, easy done if one don’t know what he is doing.
gaps (talk reaction) is also easily changed.
>
> In conclusion, in my opinion all reed manufactures are using grinders.
>
> The only a truly hand made reeds are done by file, sand paper and a
> scraper.
> How many do you see truly hand made reeds in nova days?
On modern Accordions this is the question.
If one puts in modern professional reeds called "handmade" the may be
very nice reeds compared to others, the reed tongue is surly grinded
with a low speed grinding belt in cross direction to the tongue.
Some may be hand riveted, and the customer pre tuning may by done with
files or sanding paper.
The final tuning is also done with rotary tools in most cases, only very
few Factories still do it with files and snatchers.
The absolute final tuning if done at all, is then done by hand in most
cases.
Some of the treatment done to the reeds may be seen by inspection, as
you John can tell.
Or can someone tell anything different?
Regards,
Johnann
Ike
> Hello John,
> Fantastic!!!!! This is the sort of information that I was looking for!
> Not that i personally need this Information, but may be some get a more
> realistic few of the situation today.
>
> some comments between the lines:
>
> >
> > The only damage one can do by using a grinder is, -if one does not
> > have any experience in tuning the reeds and take off too much
> > (material) and then try to repair again that mistake and do it again
> > and again - then the reeds are junk.
>
> Agree, i even cant imagine how on can tune piccolo reeds this way at all.
> >
grinder. Sometimes I can save a little time when flattening the pitch
slightly by barely touching the blued area. Also not having to take the
inner reed out of the wax, I have a very narrow thin shim I can slip under
the reed and touch the tip with extremely low speed rotary diamond tool. I
can get great accuracy on the high octave piccolo reeds and have them just
slightly sharp enough to make a good sound against the bassoon reeds on the
Organ setting. For rough tuning I take the piccolo reed out of the wax when
I have to tune the inside reed. I often find the piccolo reeds are way out
of tune. They have to be cleaned very well to find out what the pitch
frequency is, and of course the wax usually replaced. When I use the diamond
point it is small enough not to touch the side of the plate aperture. It
does not scratch much into the steel but leaves a very small polished area.
When using a diamond grinding tool one should not take away metal execpt on
the surface. Never let the metal get hot. If the area to be tuned is rusty a
little oil should be used and the rust polished away there, not making
grooves as I have seen some people have done. I once lowered an entire 6 row
Guerrini chromatic from A 443 to A 440 using a certain type of diamond
rotary grinders. When the owner got it back, he was ecstatic and he played
it for me over the telephone. A few years later he called me with a question
about something else. I asked him about that accordion. He said he was very
satisfied and later sold it for a good price.
Roger Gawley
On Wed, 7 Mar 2006, snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
> I'll do you one better. As time passes, it will hard to find accordion
> factories as the instrument continues to lose it's mass popularity in
> favor of electronics. Look at the age group that is maintaining sales
> both new and old. Youngsters were once found predominately in teaching
> studios. Now its oldsters. I've experienced the height and decline of
> this instrument, as I started learning the accordion in 1939 and began
> teaching in 1953. I read about the how it's 'coming back' but this is
> marketing hype to encourage sales and maybe a few to learn. This would
> be nice but the world has changed in its desires. Even symphonies are
> expiring. The composers today are not scoring for live orchestras but
> for electronic 'virtual' instruments and effects. The movies and TV
> producers prefer this and encourage it for it eliminates costs in
> hiring musicians. The composer of the future will be a fellow at a
> keyboard and computer with sampled sounds and a sequencer and recording
> direct to CD. Its that now but not entirely....yet. And yes, there will
> be those who are purist at heart and want to learn and excel in an
> instrument. But they will be in the minority.
and much other good stuff. I do not think that the piano accordion every
reached the level of popularity in England that it did in the US but it
certainly in no danger of disappearing round here (Northeast England).
I know many older players and many younger ones, mainly rooted in a "folk"
style of playing. Several of them have bought fancy instruments recently,
mainly from Italy it seems.
Cheers, Roger
Mario Bruneau
hell people are talking about when dealing with the thung or shape of
the reed, please follow this link that will show you a picture of the
profile of a reed NOT visible by bare eyes. It is an enlarge reed made
of wood to show its profile.
It's a picture I've taken at the French Maugein factory where great
efforts are made to teach the visitors the ins and outs of accordion making.
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/Lame-profil-03.jpg
Mario Bruneau
Mario Bruneau
Is this what you mean by "file tuning"?
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/FileTuningAccordion.jpg
I took this photo at Brandoni-Bompezzo accordion factory in
Castelfidardo. Their tuner use a file to tune the reeds.
Mario Bruneau
> Since you have insisted I give away all I learned for free, Ike, I'm
> going to give you the first copy, with my compliments. How's that for
> sportmanship?
> Steve
>
Hi Steve, nice post about celluloid.
Can I have a copy of your book (when it's done)?
I'm a "hacker" too :-)
I hope your health is good Steve so you have the time to finish your book.
take care
Mario
Mario Bruneau
snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
> I'll practice what I just preached to Walter Derlukiewicz and discuss
> accordions and the especially the mystery of celluloid and it's use and
> ut they will be in the minority.
> «snip» nice post about celluloid
> --
> Stephen J. Navoyosky
>
> SNAVO...@neo.rr.com
>
Hi all,
here are two pictures I've taken at SEM factory of a worker placing
celluloid on an accordion.
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/SEM-Celluloid-1.jpg
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/SEM-Celluloid-4.jpg
Mario Bruneau
Mario Bruneau
> Sometimes, the only solution (in an unmoderated newsgroup such
> as this) is to killfile those who offend you. You may lose some
> information, but you will gain a greater inner peace by not being
> confronted with the squabbling.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
Yes of course but I myself would never want to avoid neither Ike or
Steve's posts for they are so informative.
Mario
Johann Pascher
Hi, Mario Bruneau!
> Is this what you mean by "file tuning"?
Yes exactly!
Ø http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/FileTuningAccordion.jpg
>
> I took this photo at Brandoni-Bompezzo accordion factory in
>Castelfidardo. Their tuner use a file to tune the reeds.
Very nice photp, and it shows even more if on looks carefully, one can
see some other tools (hooks) the use to get to the inner reed tongues as
well. And a stick of hardened steel also can be seen in front of the
tuning bellows.
Then a sheet of paper is seen in front with a table where the tuner
looks for some corrections that are applied to the reeds. (with notes
and handwriting).
And one of the most important things also can be seen, a rag for
cleaning off, if reeds ware toughed with fingers.
Nice Leather valves are in use as well.
Really a great picture!
Thank you for posting.
best regards, Johann
Mario Bruneau schrieb:
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> For those of you reading this kind of tread and not knowing what the
> hell people are talking about when dealing with the thung or shape of
> the reed, please follow this link that will show you a picture of the
> profile of a reed NOT visible by bare eyes. It is an enlarge reed made
> of wood to show its profile.
>
> It's a picture I've taken at the French Maugein factory where great
> efforts are made to teach the visitors the ins and outs of accordion making.
>
> http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/Lame-profil-03.jpg
>
> Mario Bruneau
But not all reed tongues are made this way. It is but one design of
many.
Steve Navoyosky
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> Is this what you mean by "file tuning"?
>
> http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/FileTuningAccordion.jpg
>
> I took this photo at Brandoni-Bompezzo accordion factory in
> Castelfidardo. Their tuner use a file to tune the reeds.
>
(SNIP)
This is the final stage of tuning, Mario. I noted all the related tools
in the vicinity and there's one that Johann missed, and it's not a
condum either (next to the rag). They are finger covers to protect the
reed tongues and I use these at times. There is no need to wipe the
reed tongue if you don't touch them, and wiping them won't remove oils
etc., unless the rag contains a cleaning solution as when reeds are
soaked.
Steve
Mario Bruneau
Celluloid was invented by Hyatt in 1869 but was actually used for
accordions only 57 years later by Astolfo Danieli.
Mario Bruneau
snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
> The mid 30s brought cellulose acetate (triacetate) as a replacement for
> the unstable and highly flammable cellulose nitrate. It is this
> substance which covers your accordions. Acetate deteriorates in the
> presence of oxygen in an unused state, releasing acetic acid. This
> product was not flammable like its predecessor, but it still had
> decomposition and deterioration problems which were caused by heat,
> light, moisture, chemical reactions or from other chemicals placed in
> close contact.
snavo...@neo.rr.com
> Can Steve or someone else verify if this next statement is correct?
>
> Celluloid was invented by Hyatt in 1869 but was actually used for
> accordions only 57 years later by Astolfo Danieli.
>
> Mario Bruneau
(snip)
First of all I never heard of Astolfo Danieli and the time would be
1926. Maybe he was a factory worker in Italy? Celluloid was applied
before that time, at least it was in the states. I don't know right off
but I'll try to check my history files for that info. Butti accordions
had celluloid and they were in existance before Excelsior in 1924 and
'they' had celluloid. I have some old P. Soprani's in my 'museum' that
have celluloid and they are in the teens of the century.
How important is this for you to know?
Mario Bruneau
I have put together an Accordion MultiMedia Conference that I will be
presenting at the Frankfurt MusikMess end of March:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/conference.html
Since I glance my infos everywhere including this NG and books, I want
to make sure I'm not givin false informations.
This statement I got from M. Pierre Monichon's book "L'Accordéon". He
is one of the most respected person in the accordion's history in France.
Mario Bruneau
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau
Johann Pascher
here is the link:
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/privat/Tunnigtable-tools.JPG
Johann Pascher schrieb:
> Steve wrote:
>
>
> >Johann missed, and it's not a condum either (next to the rag).
>
> Yes right I had a close look, but it is not very clear to see.
>
> >They are finger covers to protect the reed tongues and I use these at
> times.
>
> I attached a picture where one can see such finger covers better.
>
> Johann
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
alexrat
>
> This statement I got from M. Pierre Monichon's book "L'Accordéon". He
> is one of the most respected person in the accordion's history in France.
>
> Mario Bruneau
> http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau
Hi Mario,
Good to have you posting again. Hope to make it to Montreal this year!
I'm trying to learn French and can read some. Where did you find
L'Accordeon?
Thanks
BOba
snavo...@neo.rr.com
(SNIP)
> >
> Thank you Steve,
>
> I have put together an Accordion MultiMedia Conference that I will be
> presenting at the Frankfurt MusikMess end of March:
>
> http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/conference.html
>
> Since I glance my infos everywhere including this NG and books, I want
> to make sure I'm not givin false informations.
>
> This statement I got from M. Pierre Monichon's book "L'Accordéon". He
> is one of the most respected person in the accordion's history in France.
>
> Mario Bruneau
I've had that book and will take a look at his inclusion to see if he
verified his claim somewhere.
DoN. Nichols
> Mario Bruneau wrote:
>
> > Is this what you mean by "file tuning"?
> >
> > http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/FileTuningAccordion.jpg
[ ... ]
> This is the final stage of tuning, Mario. I noted all the related tools
> in the vicinity and there's one that Johann missed, and it's not a
> condum either (next to the rag). They are finger covers to protect the
> reed tongues and I use these at times.
Known as "finger cots" in the semiconductor industry. And they
are used for the same basic purpose there -- with a semiconductor wafer
in process being even more vulnerable to contamination than even a fine
reed -- and probably more of a financial loss if it is damaged, as you
can lose hundereds of intergrated circuits or transistors in a single
mistake.
> There is no need to wipe the
> reed tongue if you don't touch them, and wiping them won't remove oils
> etc., unless the rag contains a cleaning solution as when reeds are
> soaked.
In which case, it should be kept in a fume hood, to protect the
workers.
Mario Bruneau
>>is one of the most respected person in the accordion's history in France.
>>
>>Mario Bruneau
>
> I've had that book and will take a look at his inclusion to see if he
> verified his claim somewhere.
>
I personaly know M. Monichon and I can assure you he is very
straighfoward concerning the verification of what he writes.
Actually I have 2 of his books:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/livrepayot.jpg (1985)
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/livrequesaisje.jpg (1971)
He adopts a very strict scientific aproach and would never write
something he could not verify with authentic and trustfull documents.
At his home in France, he showed me some rare historic documents and I
took a picture of him, my wife and me holding one of Demian's very first
accordion (1830)!
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/AvecMonichon1LR.jpg
I respect and admire him.
Mario Bruneau
Mario Bruneau
>>
> Hi Mario,
>
> Good to have you posting again. Hope to make it to Montreal this year!
> I'm trying to learn French and can read some. Where did you find
> L'Accordeon?
> Thanks
>
> BOba
>
Hi Bob
I got it from friends that went to Switzerland some years ago and asked
them to bring me this book for it was not available here
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/livrepayot.jpg
Répondre à / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Mario Bruneau
(819) 843-3852
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau français
http://accordions.com/mario/ bilingual
snavo...@neo.rr.com
Then I don't understand why you wrote this question, Mario:
Mario Bruneau wrote:
> Can Steve or someone else verify if this next statement is correct?
Steve
Mary Kay
So, why even have the celluoid at all and why not make them all with
all-wood finishes (besides "more durability" answer, I think all wood is
always more attractive and am as careful with my celluloid as would be
with wood).
Just wondering what you think about why they bother putting on the
celluloid at all,
MK
snavo...@neo.rr.com wrote:
>
> I'll practice what I just preached to Walter Derlukiewicz and discuss
> accordions and the especially the mystery of celluloid and it's use ...
> Stephen J. Navoyosky
>
> SNAVO...@neo.rr.com
Mario Bruneau
Plonk! Got me there steve!
Well, historic facts being what they are, a lot of mistakes or
misinterpretation of facts, old manuscripts or oral testimonys that
often contradict each other, I wanted to verify with other sources.
People from this NG being the best I could hope for, you included Steve.
regards
Mario Bruneau
I've just came back from a trip to Castelfidardo and I can testify one
see more and more solid wood made accordions, not just laminated but
real solid wood. As I wrote in my report from my trip to Castelfidardo:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/Castelfidardo.html
"There is a tendency in Castelfidardo to produce more and more natural
wood finished accordions which I think is a good thing. One of the
first to produce nice wooden finished accordion ass I recall was
Fisitalia but now you see more and more wooden accordions made in
Castelfidardo. I know some beginners would choose the diatonic model
over the piano model because it was in natural wood finish and that they
didn’t like the "artificial" celluloid finish on the piano accordions.
But now they have the choice. Talking about celluloid, the tendency is
to substitute varnish to this old product. Celluloid is very dangerous
for the health of the accordion factories’ employees. Like M. René
Lachaize from the Maugein factory says, “with the development of new
technologies in producing good varnish, one doesn’t need celluloid
anymore”. I think he’s right plus, it’s bad for the environment."
See a picture of me trying a not completed yet Brandoni-Bompezzo all
wood accordion:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/MarioJoueUnBrandoniPasFinit.jpg
Répondre à / reply to : mariob...@abcde.net
Mario Bruneau
(819) 843-3852
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau français
http://accordions.com/mario/ bilingual
Mary Kay
Thanks much - I remember your post about your trip, which was really
nice - but your Web page about your trip looks really great now by the
way! - - and how you said more wood finishes were being made. I think it
is a good idea especially for businesses that want to focus on high end
accordions which those Italians really must do... I actually tried
learning to play button box just because it was wood, so I know what you
mean. (Went back to piano accordion because I could not figure it out,
though but am not sad going back because I love piano accordion very
much.)
The Brandoni-Bompezzo looks FABULOUS!!! I wish my accordions were
all-wood.
More wood would be good (<--- hohohoho! That's a good name for a new
polka!)
Is the celluloid just cheaper and faster for manufacturing a lot of
accordions more quickly?
MK
Mario Bruneau
> Dear Mario,
>
> Thanks much - I remember your post about your trip, which was really
> nice - but your Web page about your trip looks really great now by the
> way! - - and how you said more wood finishes were being made. I think it
> is a good idea especially for businesses that want to focus on high end
> accordions which those Italians really must do... I actually tried
> learning to play button box just because it was wood, so I know what you
> mean. (Went back to piano accordion because I could not figure it out,
> though but am not sad going back because I love piano accordion very
> much.)
>
> The Brandoni-Bompezzo looks FABULOUS!!! I wish my accordions were
> all-wood.
>
> More wood would be good (<--- hohohoho! That's a good name for a new
> polka!)
>
> Is the celluloid just cheaper and faster for manufacturing a lot of
> accordions more quickly?
Thank you Mary for your kind words.
About cost of celluloid versus solid wood I dont know. One thing I know
though is that the fabrics use a lot of cabinet quality laminated wood
(which is much better quality than the regular "plywood") to put
togheter the case of the accordions and then after, they just pass those
case on a sanding machine and shape them by hand so the process is
faster than joining solid wood with nice and solid seems. So I figure
the cost to be less. Here is a photo showing some accordion cases made
out of laminated stock ready to receive their paint-plastic-celluloid
finish:
http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/LaminatedDetails05.jpg
You can clearly see the lines made by the rounded shape corners. Those
correspond to the different layers of "ply" wood.
Ike
"Mary Kay" <mkREM...@personalsecurityzoneREMUVTHiS.com> wrote in message
news:44171F...@personalsecurityzoneREMUVTHiS.com...
Well, it wasn't addressed to me, but accordions are nowadays usually made of
plywood to save time and cost, and maybe weight. Some, like the last of the
Mohican Hohner Atlantic IV's (not the older ones) had casings of other
materials, like magnesium alloy. Those Atlantic IV's weighed quite
pleasantly less than the aluminum alloy ones without the magnesium. And long
ago Atlantic IV's were made of plywood. But plywood won't look nice as the
solid wood used mostly before the 1920's for PA's and Chromatics. These were
usually inlaid with mother of pearl or brass decorations or logos. The
famous 5 row Dallape woody had a picture of Sr. Dallape on it that you could
see by looking inside a little hole. It was small about the size of a Hohner
Corona. Some of that style CBA's were 140 bass, and some were 80 bass. Piano
accordions were rare before about 1920. than they started to make most of
them from plywood covered with celluloid. The celluloid shrinks and puts
stress on the wood. The gallery covers shrink, won't fit and start to break
up.
BTW I have a last of the Mohican Atlantic IV (my name for it). I found that
the magnesium alloy easily deformed if a bolt was tightened too much. The
shift mechanism had some design problems as well, but I am still very happy
with it.
Theodore M. Kloba
> Just wondering what you think about why they bother putting on the
> celluloid at all,
Because it's hard to get veneer to stretch over rounded corners.
Russ Gray
the big differences between the Panther and the cheaper model of the
Corona 2 is the panther is paint and the corona2 is celluloid.
I like the way the celluloid looks, but I have also seen some really
nice custom paint jobs that people have done.
But when it comes to buying expensive hardwood and doing excellent
carpentry to do a finish where the wood actually shows, I don't know
which would cost more.
Victoria Accordions has some beautiful wood finish accordions I wanted
one but couldnt afford it. (I found out about Victoria because I saw a
picture of Richard Galliano playing one)
Russ
Mary Kay
Mario Bruneau wrote:
>
... So I figure
> the cost to be less. Here is a photo showing some accordion cases made
> out of laminated stock ready to receive their paint-plastic-celluloid
> finish:
>
> http://www.abcde.net/mariobruneau/LaminatedDetails05.jpg
>
> You can clearly see the lines made by the rounded shape corners. Those
> correspond to the different layers of "ply" wood....
Mary Kay
always. Accordions have a lot of materials science in them! (Plus rocket
scientist types of people who are interested in them!!!)
:-)
MK
Mary Kay
Wow + Something interesting... I went to babelfish.altavista.com to
translate their blurb about their woodworking and it was a pretty good
translation...
"The accordion from massif wood, designed from erlesenen high-acoustic
noble woods, by playing the violin farmer realizes. Each accordion
represents an inimitable unique piece; the medium with that the musician
its art carries out. If you click here, around the total table of all
models to see noble woods, which were stored at least 7 years naturally,
pure manual work and antique work methods, like for example warm
adhesives on bone basis and valuable natural lacquers, which would
already use the large masters of building of playing the violin Cremonas
Amati and Stradivari, result in this singular instrument."
Thanks again,
MK
Ike
"Mary Kay" <mkREM...@personalsecurityzoneREMUVTHiS.com> wrote in message
> Dear Ike, -- Thanks very much for your interesting answer + history, as
> always. Accordions have a lot of materials science in them! (Plus rocket
> scientist types of people who are interested in them!!!)
>
> :-)
>
> MK
Thanks for your answer Mary Kay! I have been getting slapped around a bit in
the NG (and privately by someone I killfiled) and it's good to hear someone
appreciated something I said. BTW could you post below my messages, instead
of top-posting. In noticed a recent reply where you did not even include any
of the text you were replying to (or was that someone else?). Anyway
top-posting is breaking up the sequence, and is not customary on usenet. One
doesn't know whehter to post above or below. I my regular emails I top-post
but here on usenet, I and most other people post their replies after what
they are replying to.
alexrat
>
> Thanks for your answer Mary Kay! I have been getting slapped around a bit in
> the NG (and privately by someone I killfiled) and it's good to hear someone
> appreciated something I said. BTW could you post below my messages, instead
> of top-posting.
Ike,
I thought you were a troll when you came onboard 5 or 6 years ago, but
I soon became a fan of your humor and insight. Keep it up.
BOba
Ike
"alexrat" <bale...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1142806265.5...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Mary Kay
Dear Ike,
It is GREAT to see your picture! DuPont Circle is a very cool place to
perform! That looks like a special Scandalli, too. (Do you remember what
music you were playing at the time?)
By the way, I have put a link to your site on our links page for our
music group. It is here...
http://aufrance.com/gairin/Celtic_Music_links.htm
- - Hope it brings you some business.
Have a happy day!!!
Mary Kay
--
Gáirín Celtic Music
Enjoy it now ~ http://cdbaby.com/cd/gairin
PO Box 1600, Carson City, NV 89702
Phone: (775) 841-1193
Ike
"Mary Kay" <mkREM...@personalsecurityzoneREMUVTHiS.com> wrote in message
> Ike wrote:
>>
>> "alexrat" <bale...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142806265.5...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for your answer Mary Kay! I have been getting slapped around a
>> >> bit in the NG (and privately by someone I killfiled) and it's good to
>> >> hear someone appreciated something I said. BTW could you post below my
>> >> messages, instead of top-posting.
>> >
>> > Ike,
>> >
>> > I thought you were a troll when you came onboard 5 or 6 years ago, but
>> > I soon became a fan of your humor and insight. Keep it up.
>> >
>> > BOba
>> >
>> Here is a picture of me naked. www.1accordion.net/scan2.jpg
>
> Dear Ike,
>
> It is GREAT to see your picture! DuPont Circle is a very cool place to
> perform! That looks like a special Scandalli, too. (Do you remember what
> music you were playing at the time?)
>
ehtnicity, polkas, waltzes, Slovenian, Scottish, Bavarian, Polish, Russian,
I had a huge collection of stuff hat I would play on the streets, mainly
near Dupont Circle. That particular photo was taken at the Dupont Circle
Metro by -- I will post her name later, since I can't find the original at
this instant.but the logo was on the back. That accordion was tuned French
Musette by me and later had new bellows made for it. Scandalli made a
series of those named after Italian cities, with the Roman columns
decoration. It has 2 toggle plam switches, one cuts off the low reeds and
the other is supposed to cut two tremolo reeds, but I can't figure out how
to make it cut but one set.
> By the way, I have put a link to your site on our links page for our
> music group. It is here...
>
> http://aufrance.com/gairin/Celtic_Music_links.htm
>
> - - Hope it brings you some business.
>
Great. That's all I need. More stupid business!
Mary Kay
...
> Great. That's all I need. More stupid business!
I can add that the link is only for stupids (sorry not enough room).
;-)
:-)
;-)
Thanks for posting about the roman columns.. I always wondered what your
roman column accordion looked like.
:-)
MK
Steven Palm
"snavo...@neo.rr.com" <snavo...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> I'll do you one better. As time passes, it will hard to find accordion
> factories as the instrument continues to lose it's mass popularity in
> favor of electronics.
I regret that I have to agree with you, Steve. A slight glimmer of
hope lies in MIDI and even entirely reedless accordions. I personally
think the accordion makes a very good MIDI controller, but maybe the
investment in time to learn to use it properly isn't perceived as worth
the effort compared with using a standard keyboard.
I personally think the biggest death knell is the exorbitant prices
charged for the accordions... One can get a very functional keyboard
with sound module included for a fraction of what it would cost to even
put in a retrofit MIDI kit in an accordion you have to buy separately,
and no sound module included! Don't even compare to the prices of
complete packages that have everything you need, the accordions price
themselves right out of the ballpark.
I wish I understood more about why this is... Without the issue of
reeds, hand-tuning, etc., I would think that mass production of these
all-electronic accordions would be much easier and cheaper, but they
seem to drive the cost over the already high wall.
Just my $0.02, feel free to disagree. :)
I guess I'm more sensitive to this as I work full time for a non-profit
Christian missions organization and so not only is my money tight, but I
carefully consider the worth of every dollar spent and in comparison it
often seems that accordion prices are indeed inflated relative to other
products of similar function.
Steve
-----
Steven Palm
n9yty-n...@n9yty.com
snavo...@neo.rr.com
(snip). I personally
> think the accordion makes a very good MIDI controller, but maybe the
> investment in time to learn to use it properly isn't perceived as worth
> the effort compared with using a standard keyboard.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained as 'they' say. Consider that you'd
have two instruments in one..an acoustic accordion and an electronic
module run by the accordion keys and buttons.
> I personally think the biggest death knell is the exorbitant prices
> charged for the accordions... One can get a very functional keyboard
> with sound module included for a fraction of what it would cost to even
> put in a retrofit MIDI kit in an accordion you have to buy separately,
> and no sound module included! Don't even compare to the prices of
> complete packages that have everything you need, the accordions price
> themselves right out of the ballpark.
Accordions do not cost anymore than before, SP. It's the inflationary
costs that have driven them up. In the USA, it now takes $5 to buy a
dollar's worth. So divide the price you think is exorbitant and divide
it by 5 and you'll see what it truly is (all things equal s before)
worth back when you thought they were high at 'that' time. A $10000
accordion today cost $2000 back, say, fifty years ago. Same values,
only different times and inflation.
Then you have the supply and demand on those MIDI outfits and since
they are in demand, the seller can ask whatever he wants for them. It's
called ":capitalism"
> I wish I understood more about why this is... Without the issue of
> reeds, hand-tuning, etc., I would think that mass production of these
> all-electronic accordions would be much easier and cheaper, but they
> seem to drive the cost over the already high wall.
I agree with you. It's not fair, but as 'they' would say....."That's
business"
> Just my $0.02, feel free to disagree. :)
>
> I guess I'm more sensitive to this as I work full time for a non-profit
> Christian missions organization and so not only is my money tight, but I
> carefully consider the worth of every dollar spent and in comparison it
> often seems that accordion prices are indeed inflated relative to other
> products of similar function.
>
> Steve
>
> -----
> Steven Palm
> n9yty-n...@n9yty.com
Connect up with the right person who isn't greedy---look around. It's
nice to have what others have, but sometimes you have to be satisfied
with what you can get. You've known my accordion business situation but
you've never made a contact with me about these things. So as I
said....investigate other possibilities besides wanting the cadallics
and lexus of the industry.
Steve Navoyosky
Steven Palm
I followed your previous post about this, and adjusting for inflation,
you are quite right. That doesn't mean the price has ever been
reasonable, but that is a VERY subjective term. Also, I guess my
argument is more toward the comparison of the reedless accordion pricing
as compared to other keyboard instruments, not so much on "regular"
accordions with all the reed work involved.
I suspect I'm also trying to apply cost economics of mass-produced
items to items that are more largely hand-made, and that isn't a fair
comparison either. Mass produced Chinese accordions are reasonably
priced, but you don't get quite as much instrument for the dollar. I
know that is a hotly debated issue as to if they are worth anything at
all, but I don't want to stir that one up.
> Then you have the supply and demand on those MIDI outfits and since
> they are in demand, the seller can ask whatever he wants for them. It's
> called ":capitalism"
Oh, I know that well, Steve, but suffice it to say that I'm not a big
fan of capitalism at it's extreme. At some point I am more bound by the
moral constraint of not charging substantially more than my cost plus a
modest profit, such as one needs to stay in business and earn a living,
but that is a self-imposed limit that is not binding on others.
(obviously) :) And even then, one could argue what a "modest" profit is.
> nice to have what others have, but sometimes you have to be satisfied
> with what you can get.
Yes, you are correct again. :) Just because you want something does
not mean you are entitled to have it. But as you probably have noticed
my other posts in seeking information on doing my own MIDI conversion, I
am not strictly limited to wanting a "new" or Cadillac model... I'm
investigating the do-it-yourself board designed by Tom Scarriff (no
longer available, but I have friends who can help me design one based on
his work). It would be a no-frills MIDI controller, no program change,
no front panel controls, no bellows pressure sensor, etc., but it would
provide the basic functionality for a hopefully reasonable price
investment.
> You've known my accordion business situation but
> you've never made a contact with me about these things. So as I
> said....investigate other possibilities besides wanting the cadallics
> and lexus of the industry.
Ah, but I've just read about it today when I pulled up the last month
worth of discussions here and have been reading some posts alluding to
it. I honestly didn't know before then, as I've just started actively
reading both the AFF posts in the last week or two and the posts here
today. 'Tis a pity, but timing is what it is, and I do believe there are
reasons for things to happen the way they do.
Thanks again for your posts, Steve. Despite what some others have said,
I enjoy reading what you have to say, so please keep at it.
-----
Steven Palm
n9yty-n...@n9yty.com
snavo...@neo.rr.com
In article <1143667408.883484.279...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"snavoyo...@neo.rr.com" <snavoyo...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> Accordions do not cost anymore than before, SP.
I followed your previous post about this, and adjusting for
inflation,
you are quite right. That doesn't mean the price has ever been
reasonable, but that is a VERY subjective term. Also, I guess my
argument is more toward the comparison of the reedless accordion
pricing
as compared to other keyboard instruments, not so much on "regular"
accordions with all the reed work involved.
>>
I see your point and it makes sense. What happens is the same thing
with other products that come out new....audio players.....8 track to
cassette to CD..to..... It's all that marketing hype to stir the
juices and get the consumer to bite hard. Yes, in a manner of speaking,
you are paying more for less. But still there's another view on this
and that is....it's not an accordion...it's a new instrument that looks
like an accordion. Why? To get accordion players hooked on it.
On the good side of this, it shows that accordions and players still
exist as a premium customer.
<<
I suspect I'm also trying to apply cost economics of mass-produced
items to items that are more largely hand-made, and that isn't a fair
comparison either. Mass produced Chinese accordions are reasonably
priced, but you don't get quite as much instrument for the dollar. I
know that is a hotly debated issue as to if they are worth anything at
all, but I don't want to stir that one up.
>>
Well, SP, you get what you pay for. I had a few in my shop and some
were good and some were bad. But look at their economics as compared to
Italy and 'their' mass produced accordions. In Italy, the government
has placed ecological laws that makes prices soar too. It's one of the
reasons why there are only a few factories left. Other factories could
not afford to upgrade their working conditions and so have settled for
doing 'assembly' work of parts (bass sections, treble sections,
bellows, etc) made by others.
> Then you have the supply and demand on those MIDI outfits and since
> they are in demand, the seller can ask whatever he wants for them. It's
> called ":capitalism"
<<
Oh, I know that well, Steve, but suffice it to say that I'm not a big
fan of capitalism at it's extreme. At some point I am more bound by the
moral constraint of not charging substantially more than my cost plus a
modest profit, such as one needs to stay in business and earn a living,
but that is a self-imposed limit that is not binding on others.
(obviously) :) And even then, one could argue what a "modest" profit
is.
>>
SP, keep that thought in mind for that's precisely what has happened
through the years: cost plus profit by the factory; cost plus profit by
the importer/jobber-distributor; cost plus profit by the dealer. This
like a coupon book loan at banks...for home improvement, vehicle, etc.
and called 'add-on interest'
> nice to have what others have, but sometimes you have to be satisfied
> with what you can get.
<<
Yes, you are correct again. :) Just because you want something does
not mean you are entitled to have it. But as you probably have noticed
my other posts in seeking information on doing my own MIDI conversion,
I
am not strictly limited to wanting a "new" or Cadillac model... I'm
investigating the do-it-yourself board designed by Tom Scarriff (no
longer available, but I have friends who can help me design one based
on
his work). It would be a no-frills MIDI controller, no program
change,
no front panel controls, no bellows pressure sensor, etc., but it would
provide the basic functionality for a hopefully reasonable price
investment.
>>
Bring it up on AFF. There's guys there like Dick Cihon who are monsters
in that field.
> You've known my accordion business situation but
> you've never made a contact with me about these things. So as I
> said....investigate other possibilities besides wanting the cadallics
> and lexus of the industry.
<<
Ah, but I've just read about it today when I pulled up the last month
worth of discussions here and have been reading some posts alluding to
it. I honestly didn't know before then, as I've just started actively
reading both the AFF posts in the last week or two and the posts here
today. 'Tis a pity, but timing is what it is, and I do believe there
are
reasons for things to happen the way they do.
>>
Check the AFF ClasifiedAds group too. Maybe there's something there for
you.
<<
Thanks again for your posts, Steve. Despite what some others have
said,
I enjoy reading what you have to say, so please keep at it.
-----
Steven Palm
n9yty-nospam...@n9yty.com
>>
I appreciate your kindness on this. They don't bother me as I don't let
it....but I do stand my ground with them. What mother didn't teach
them, society has to. And as you read before from me-----dumb kids
don't like smart kids. The way they behave, you'd think they were
paying for their information and downloads. Nice talking with you SP.
Steve Navoyosky
Ventura
Steven Palm wrote:
>
> I personally think the biggest death knell is the exorbitant prices
> charged for the accordions...
> I would think that mass production of these
> all-electronic accordions would be much easier and cheaper........
On the face of it yes it might seem so, but there is one
critical flaw in this kind of thinking
quite simply, there is no "Mass" to buy the quantity of product
that would be required for a manufacturer of accordions to actually
begin to realize a cost reduction of scale/quantity
the Chinese recently learned this, as they had ramped up, made
incredible numbers of these accordion shaped objects,
and then had to dump them at any price in every concievable
type of sale, promotion, gimmick, giveaway, under any
name they could get, borrow, fake, through any two bit
unscrupulous dealer, ebay scoundrel, pawn shop, pretender, etc.
there IS a market in China for such quantity, at such (lack of)
quality, but nowhere else. they really thought they were gonna cash in
and some people have certainly paid 3 or 4 times what one of these
things were worth, but for the most part they are taking any
money offered.
Mass production requires a mass of qualified buyers to work, as
well as the investment capital to pay for huge amounts of raw
materiel and manufacturing capability and storage and sales and
distribution too! huge risk where there is only a "maybe" for a market.
Ciao
Ventura
Mary Kay
accordions to dealers in the US, and at what prices per quantity. Do you
know?
Have not looked into this, because we aren't into dealing musical
instruments, but am always curious about business & product marketing
anyway.
MK
Ventura wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Steven Palm wrote:
> >
> > I personally think the biggest death knell is the exorbitant prices
> > charged for the accordions...
>
> > I would think that mass production of these
> > all-electronic accordions would be much easier and cheaper........
>
> On the face of it yes it might seem so, but there is one
> critical flaw in this kind of thinking
>
> quite simply, there is no "Mass" to buy the quantity of product
> that would be required for a manufacturer of accordions to actually
> begin to realize a cost reduction of scale/quantity
>
> the Chinese recently learned this, as they had ramped up, made
> incredible numbers of these accordion shaped objects,
> and then had to dump them at any price in every concievable
> type of sale, promotion, gimmick, giveaway, under any
> name they could get, borrow, fake, through any two bit
> unscrupulous dealer, ebay scoundrel, pawn shop, pretender, etc.
>
> there IS a market in China for such quantity, at such (lack of)
> quality, but nowhere else. . .
>
> Ciao
>
> Ventura
--
Gáirín is Celtic music - Inspired by tradition but unfettered by it.
Enjoy it now ~
http://aufrance.com/gairin