Help identify old concertina
Reginald C Smith
grandmother playing when my wife was a child. There is no
identification of maker, or country of origion on the instrument or the
case. It would be nice to have this information. It has 24 buttons on
each side and is in reasonably good condition - all the notes play with
one exception. The bellows are green leather with cream colored panels
beautifully embossed in green and gold. The veneer on the case is
somewhat damaged and the case has been relined with felt. Is there some
way to identify its origion? Any clues will be appreciated.
ko...@pied-crow.com
Hi, Reginald.
re:
> There is no identification of maker, or country of origion on the instrument or
> the case.
and
> ... Is there some way to identify its origion? Any clues will be
appreciated.
>
Many of the old concertinas and bandoneons (aka "Bandonions" in
German) were not marked on the outside. I have found it helpful
to remove the screws (or pins) on the righthand side and inspect the
interior for identifying marks. Frequently one will find hammered
stamps in the wood near the action (button linkage) which either
frankly identify the maker or give unmistakable clues. Ink-pad
stamps are also fairly common. Examples of inked markings include
concertinas and bandoneons made by Ernst Arnold and also by F.Lange &
C.F. Uhlig. I believe the Lachenal concertinas have hammered stamps
on the interior which depict a trademark and serial number.
Additionally, it seems that repair people have a passion for leaving
their marks on the insides of squeezeboxes (virtually every
second-hand instrument I have purchased has pencil marks with
someones initials and a date or something written somewhere inside),
and these can provide useful data also.
Please tell us when you learn the answer. The button arrangements on
concertinas have run the gamut over the years, so hearing that an
instrument has 24 on each side doesn't really nail anything down
without additional coordinating data. Also useful data: basic shape
(square/hexagonal/octagonal) and basic dimensions (across parallel
edges).
Godd luck \TK
Dennis Hoshield
On 13 Aug 1998, Joe Kesselman, yclept Keshlam wrote:
> Another possibility: You might want to wander the websites and
> see which instruments _look_like_ yours. In particular, the pattern
> of the fretwork cutouts on the ends (assuming it's more than a few
> holes) sometimes has recognizable stylistic elements.
>
> If you've got a website, posting a picture where we could look
> at it might help us guess. (Don't send the picture itself to the
> newsgroup; posting binaries into a discussion not designed for
> them is considered impolite.)
>
I've only worked on one concertina .. and was actually successful in my
results ... but I really couldn't help you identify your unit, but I
would be happy to post a picture for you (no cost to squeezebox people!
:-) ..) on my web site .... http://www.ycs.com/ycs/yas.htm. We could
then post to the group, and anyone gould browse over and check it out.
No ... I don't sell anything there ... it's just a service for sqeezers.
Take care ..
Dennis
YOUR Accordion Services
ross schlabach
Reginald C Smith <regs...@uniserve.com> wrote in article
<90296083...@neptune.uniserve.com>...
> My wife who is 65 years old has a concertina which she remembers her
> grandmother playing when my wife was a child. There is no
> identification of maker, or country of origion on the instrument or the
> case. It would be nice to have this information. It has 24 buttons on
> each side and is in reasonably good condition - all the notes play with
> one exception. The bellows are green leather with cream colored panels
> beautifully embossed in green and gold. The veneer on the case is
> somewhat damaged and the case has been relined with felt. Is there some
> way to identify its origion? Any clues will be appreciated.
>
>
I think there are some other possibilities that might be pursued. Since you
said there were 24 buttons on each side, then the instrument could be an
English style concertina if the buttons are in four straight rows. If each
side has this pattern of buttons and also has a small strap on each side
that looks like a thumb could slip through, then it is an English model. As
to the manufacturer, the discription of the bellows matched the very old
Wheatstones of the 1860's. While we couldn't be absolutely sure, here are
some additional clues that might suggest that it is an old Wheatstone. As
you may know, Charles Wheatstone invented the concertina. Now on to the
clues:
Does it have small brass buttons?
Assuming that it is six-sided, are there small brass inlays in each of the
points on each side?
If you can, look through the wooden fret-work and see if you can see the
levers that are operated by the buttons. Those levers have a pivot point.
See if there is a rivet that holds the pivot point together?
The paper panels in between each fold of the bellows, do those papers seems
to have fine printing?
Wheatstones also had a small oval whole in one point on each side and the
manufacturer's name is normally there. Of course it can be missing.
If you can answer yes to the first four questions, then there is a good
possibility that the instrument is a Wheatstone. But to be sure, a
qualified repair person would have to look it over carefully.
Also, if my guess is correct, this instrument will also have brass reeds.
They can sound sweet but have many problems not faced by later models with
steel reeds.
Last year a nicely refurbished Wheatstone that matched this description was
on sale for $1,000. To my knowledge, there were no takers at that price.
And mishandling of the instrument caused the bellows to rupture.
If you need more info., you might want to contac the Button Box in Mass.
You can easily find their website under "Concertina".
Good luck,
Ross
Joe Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
see which instruments _look_like_ yours. In particular, the pattern
of the fretwork cutouts on the ends (assuming it's more than a few
holes) sometimes has recognizable stylistic elements.
If you've got a website, posting a picture where we could look
at it might help us guess. (Don't send the picture itself to the
newsgroup; posting binaries into a discussion not designed for
them is considered impolite.)
What I'd do, I think, would be get it to one of the concertina
dealers/repairers who've been mentioned on this group, and
ask them. They're the ones who have seen enough instruments
that they've got a reasonable chance of recognizing the make
and model. "What is it" is probably a no-charge answer;
"How much is it worth" including an evaluation of its condition
and estimate of how much any needed repairs would cost
might set you back $25 or so.
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
New URL for Walkabout Clearwater Coffeehouse and Chorus:
http://www.lovesong.com/walkabout/
Jim Lucas
fits that of a standard 48-button English concertina. I'll bet the ends
are hexagonal, with a small loop for the thumb and metal rest for the
little finger on each end.
Most likely maker is Lachenal. They made lots of instruments with paper
maker's labels on the one end (and a serial no. label on the other), and
these labels often fell often after many years. Furthermore, a lot of
Lachenal instruments were re-labelled by dealers who pasted their own
labels over the originals. (E.g., I have one with an A.O. Windsor label,
though it's really a Lachenal, and Windsor was really a banjo maker.)
Check a bunch of concertina-related web pages, and I bet you'll find more
than one instrument that looks like yours. A couple of good places to
start would be Chris Timson's Concertina FAQ
<www.harbour.demon.co.uk/concerti.htm> and Don Nichols' home page
<www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html>.
A matching pattern in the fretwork (the pattern left by all the fancy holes
cut into the ends to let air and sound through) can almost certainly
identify the maker. Each maker had his own particular patterns or styles,
and though they might make custom fretwork on special order they did not
copy each others' patterns. Yours does not sound like a special-order
instrument.
There may be other clues -- such as serial numbers stamped on the reed pans
(inside) and details of interior construction -- which could assist in
pinpointing the maker and possibly even the age of the instrument, if you
wanted to go to the trouble. I notice you didn't ask about the resale
value (which could vary considerably depending on many factors); are you
planning to take up playing. If so, welcome to the clan.
Best of luck, /Jim Lucas
DoN. Nichols
ross schlabach <r...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>Reginald C Smith <regs...@uniserve.com> wrote in article
><90296083...@neptune.uniserve.com>...
>> My wife who is 65 years old has a concertina which she remembers her
>> grandmother playing when my wife was a child. There is no
>> identification of maker, or country of origion on the instrument or the
>> case. It would be nice to have this information. It has 24 buttons on
>> each side and is in reasonably good condition - all the notes play with
>> one exception. The bellows are green leather with cream colored panels
>> beautifully embossed in green and gold. The veneer on the case is
>> somewhat damaged and the case has been relined with felt. Is there some
>> way to identify its origion? Any clues will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>said there were 24 buttons on each side, then the instrument could be an
>English style concertina if the buttons are in four straight rows. If each
>side has this pattern of buttons and also has a small strap on each side
>that looks like a thumb could slip through, then it is an English model. As
>to the manufacturer, the discription of the bellows matched the very old
>Wheatstones of the 1860's.
The early Lachenals also had that kind of bellows, as did the other
makers of the period.
> While we couldn't be absolutely sure, here are
>some additional clues that might suggest that it is an old Wheatstone. As
>you may know, Charles Wheatstone invented the concertina. Now on to the
>clues:
>
>Does it have small brass buttons?
The really old ones which I have seen are usually equipped with bone
buttons. The "learner" models even had the note names engraved in the ends
of the middle two rows, with the 'C' buttons dyed red. The outer two rows
were dyed black, since they were always sharps or flats on the note to which
they were adjacent.
More recent instruments from Wheatstone had deep-drawn German Silver
caps over wood buttons, or later over plastic. Only the metal is visible
from the outside.
Lachenal had buttons machined from the same material, with a flat
cap silver-soldered on the end to cover the hole drilled in the center to
lighten it.
>Assuming that it is six-sided, are there small brass inlays in each of the
>points on each side?
That is only found on the fancier instruments.
>If you can, look through the wooden fret-work and see if you can see the
>levers that are operated by the buttons. Those levers have a pivot point.
>See if there is a rivet that holds the pivot point together?
The rivet only occurs on much later instruments. The common
construction during the period of green leather bellows with wallpaper was
the "croquet-hoop" style. A brass staple in the wood, with a matching curve
in the lever to keep it oriented along the length. The two were held in
contact by a spring between the pivot and the button. This also held the
valve closed.
>The paper panels in between each fold of the bellows, do those papers seems
>to have fine printing?
>
>Wheatstones also had a small oval whole in one point on each side and the
>manufacturer's name is normally there. Of course it can be missing.
Most of the early makers were marked the same way.
>If you can answer yes to the first four questions, then there is a good
>possibility that the instrument is a Wheatstone. But to be sure, a
>qualified repair person would have to look it over carefully.
A Wheatstone, a Lachenal, or any one of a number of other makers (or
a "badge-engineered" Lachenal). Lachenal made a lot of instruments for
others to sell.
>Also, if my guess is correct, this instrument will also have brass reeds.
>They can sound sweet but have many problems not faced by later models with
>steel reeds.
Agreed -- on both counts.
>Last year a nicely refurbished Wheatstone that matched this description was
>on sale for $1,000. To my knowledge, there were no takers at that price.
That is too high for such an instrument in my book.
>And mishandling of the instrument caused the bellows to rupture.
Ouch!
>If you need more info., you might want to contac the Button Box in Mass.
>You can easily find their website under "Concertina".
You have already been pointed by another response to my web site
(URL in the .sig). In particular, it (the "Tour" pages) shows both photos
of the exterior of the English concertina, and of the interior, should you
wish to know what is inside without disassembling it. The drawings show a
version of the "croquet-hoop" action, while the photos document a later
riveted action.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
NOTE: spamblocking on against servers which harbor spammers.
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Donald Nichols (DoN.)|Voice (703) 938-4564
My Concertina web page: | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Reginald C Smith
says...
><90296083...@neptune.uniserve.com>...
>> My wife who is 65 years old has a concertina which she remembers her
>> grandmother playing when my wife was a child. There is no
>> identification of maker, or country of origion on the instrument or the
>> case. It would be nice to have this information. It has 24 buttons on
>> each side and is in reasonably good condition - all the notes play with
>> one exception. The bellows are green leather with cream colored panels
>> beautifully embossed in green and gold. The veneer on the case is
>> somewhat damaged and the case has been relined with felt. Is there some
>> way to identify its origion? Any clues will be appreciated.
>
Thanks to the several respondents to my earlier request re identifying old
concertina. Ross provided some very useful clues. It almost sounded like he
had the instrument in front of him. In particular:
The ends have a leather strap for the thumbs, attached to the side with a
large brass button to adjust the length of the strap. The button screws into
a round brass insert in the wood. There is a leather covered brass metal
rest for the fingers, although the leather is missing from one and badly worn
on the other.
It is six sided and six inches across.
It has small brass buttons - 48
There are small brass inlays in each of the points on each side.
I cannot be sure about the levers that are operated by the buttons. The
actual pivot point is a small brass upright with a vertical slot through
which the pivot arm extends from the button to the valve. I cannot see the
contact point at the bottom of the button.
The panels in between each fold of the bellows may be paper stuck onto the
leather bellows. They are imprinted in green and gold on a cream colored
background with a finely printed cross hatch on the cream background. I am
unsure if this is what Ross refers to as "fine printing".
There is a small oval hole almost one inch in length in one point on one side
but it is not matched by a similar hole on the other side. The hole on the
other side in the same location is one half inch long and is not simply an
oval but more like a small circl with an extension on each side.
Dennis offered to post a picture on his website but since I don't have a
camera or a scanner it will take me some time to do this but I will certainly
follow up on his offer.
In the meantime, any suggestions of additional sources of information
about Wheatstones or similar English concertinas which I might access on the
web would be appreciated, since I know nothing about the subject.
Thanks again, Reg.
DoN. Nichols
Reginald C Smith <regs...@pop.uniserve.com> wrote:
>In article <01bdc6a4$5a951da0$cde0...@pc02343.novo.dk>, j...@danbbs.dk
>says...
[ ... ]
>Thanks to the several respondents to my earlier request re identifying old
>concertina. Ross provided some very useful clues. It almost sounded like he
>had the instrument in front of him. In particular:
>The ends have a leather strap for the thumbs, attached to the side with a
>large brass button to adjust the length of the strap. The button screws into
>a round brass insert in the wood. There is a leather covered brass metal
>rest for the fingers, although the leather is missing from one and badly worn
>on the other.
O.K. This identifies it as an older English system concertina,
beyond doubt. (Later ones have the metal little-finger rest uncovered, but
of a different metal (German silver), or plated.
>It is six sided and six inches across.
>It has small brass buttons - 48
>There are small brass inlays in each of the points on each side.
O.K. This sounds like Lachenal's decoration style for their more
elaborate instruments. I have not seen a Wheatstone with similar inlays,
though I can't deny that they may exist.
>I cannot be sure about the levers that are operated by the buttons. The
>actual pivot point is a small brass upright with a vertical slot through
>which the pivot arm extends from the button to the valve.
This is a form of the "croquet-hoop" style of pivot. The riveted
action has the upright parallel to the lever, instead of at right angles,
and a rivet passes through them. The croquet-hoop design is more in line
with the rest of the description of the instrument, and does not uniquely
identify it as either Wheatstone or Lachenal (or perhpas one of the other
makers.)
> I cannot see the
>contact point at the bottom of the button.
The end of the lever should pass through a hole in the body of the
button in all cases of that age.
>The panels in between each fold of the bellows may be paper stuck onto the
>leather bellows.
What they are stuck onto is more likely a heavy cardboard. The
leather is glued on the areas of flexure, and in particular the corners,
where it has a complex fold to allow expansion and contraction.
> They are imprinted in green and gold on a cream colored
>background with a finely printed cross hatch on the cream background. I am
>unsure if this is what Ross refers to as "fine printing".
This sounds very much to me like what I have been calling
"wallpaper". I believe that it once *was* a popular wallpaper style in
England. The "gold" is brass filings embedded in glue. The green is where
the brass has been attacked by verdigris.
>There is a small oval hole almost one inch in length in one point on one side
>but it is not matched by a similar hole on the other side.
There is no maker's label visible through the hole? If not, someone
probably has removed the thin leather or cloth baffles which once were
present.
> The hole on the
>other side in the same location is one half inch long and is not simply an
>oval but more like a small circl with an extension on each side.
A cloverleaf pattern, perhaps? The serial number should be visible
through this hole, but if the baffles have been removed, then the serial
number will no longer be visible either.
The serial number should still be visible on the reed pan
(bracketing the treble-most divider), and in the bellows frame. If it were
a later Wheatstone, this would have been reduced to a two-digit number
intended to keep the related parts together through assembly, and not
matched to the serial number at all.
>Dennis offered to post a picture on his website but since I don't have a
>camera or a scanner it will take me some time to do this but I will certainly
>follow up on his offer.
>
>In the meantime, any suggestions of additional sources of information
>about Wheatstones or similar English concertinas which I might access on the
>web would be appreciated, since I know nothing about the subject.
Have you yet visited my web page? (URL below in my .sig.) No signs
of "uniserve.com" in the logfiles, but perhaps your web browsing is done
under another domain name.
Paul Hardy
Reginald C Smith wrote in message <90320465...@neptune.uniserve.com>...
>In the meantime, any suggestions of additional sources of information
>about Wheatstones or similar English concertinas which I might access on
the
>web would be appreciated, since I know nothing about the subject.
See description and pictures of my Lachenal at
http://www.hardy.demon.co.uk/paul/music/concerti.html
--
Paul Hardy (at home) pa...@hardy.demon.co.uk
Chris Timson
>In the meantime, any suggestions of additional sources of information
>about Wheatstones or similar English concertinas which I might access on the
>web would be appreciated, since I know nothing about the subject.
Check out the Concertina FAQ at the URL below, or if you like I can emil
you an ASCII version. It will add little to DoN's excellent diagnosis on
your particular instrument, but will give some background on the history
of concertinas and will point you in the direction of reputable
repairers etc (clearly you have a concertina that is worth getting
restored).
Chris
--
Chris Timson Have concertinas, will travel
and Phone (UK) 01225 863762
Anne Gregson For our home pages and for the Concertina FAQ:
http://www.harbour.demon.co.uk/