Reed blocks for Classical Accordion
Gary Dahl
for many years. The accordion still has a very difficult battle becoming
an excepted and respected instrument in the classical world. In the days
before free bass, extensive switching was required "on the run" using
the stradella bass keyboard. This is a very difficult bass technique and
results in a distracting mechanical switch noise while playing...not
acceptable. Do we hear any mechanical noise during a piano or violin
concerto? I also believe the non accordion classical community did not
relate to the sound of the conventional one low, two middles and one
high reed combination. I never have either because of the piccolo reed,
which creates a screechy, out of sync pitch with the other reeds. This
is one the reasons why the accordion irritates many listeners, and, the
piccolo reed is always out of tune too often.
If I were going to embark on a classical career, the accordion I would
use might be this combination. A free bass convertor keyboard. The
treble side would have available for a full power fortissimo the
following: 2 sets of bassoon reeds and 3 sets of middle reeds all tuned
dry. I think this would give the grand piano a little competition. The
accordion would now be closer to the piano concept using three strings,
pitched identically for each key. Imagine how thin and weak sounding a
piano would be with only one string per key and or three different
octave strings per key...not very pleasant yet the accordion world
insists on this concept like the proverbial "head in the sand" thinking.
Does this sound intriguing Faithe Deffner, Joe Natoli and all accordion
manufacturers?
I have listened to many recent classical CDs and I can only listen once
because of the shrill piccolo reeds. This is especially prevalent from
the Russian bayans.
Comments are welcome.
Gary Dahl
http://www.accordions.com/garydahl
(listen to 3 jazz and 3 tango sound files)
Gary Dahl
Puyallup, Wa. USA (near Seattle)
http://users.aol.com/accrdnmn/
(hear Clarinet Polka and a French Tango...click on the eiffel tower)
Dennis Steckley
World class quality mechanical action pipe organs are expected to have some
action noise from the tracker mechanism and manual couplers and
combinations. This is considered not only acceptable, but "charming." Yes,
it will be slight, but it is acceptable. In historic instruments, more
action noise is acceptable.
Dennis S.
----- Original Message -----
> Really-Reply-To: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
> an excepted and respected instrument in the classical world. In the days
> before free bass, extensive switching was required "on the run" using
> the stradella bass keyboard. This is a very difficult bass technique and
> results in a distracting mechanical switch noise while playing...not
> acceptable. Do we hear any mechanical noise during a piano or violin
> concerto?
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"Gary Dahl" <gary...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8630-398...@storefull-176.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Dan Lavry
<8630-398...@storefull-176.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> After commenting on another thread it reminded me of an idea I've had
> for many years. The accordion still has a very difficult battle becoming
> I have listened to many recent classical CDs and I can only listen once
> because of the shrill piccolo reeds. This is especially prevalent from
> the Russian bayans.
> Comments are welcome.
>
> Gary Dahl
Hi Gary,
I understand many of your comments, though not all. I do not disagree with
what you say. Personally I do not hate the piccolo reed, though I may be a
minority here. The question that comes to mind is: should we fight the
first war of a long battle on the most difficult front? Classical music is
losing a lot of listeners, so putting much energy into getting acceptance
in that arena (which is very conservative in nature) is tough and may do
less for the acceptance of the instrument. On the other hand, there is a
revival of world music, and more "openness" in newer styles of music to all
sorts of thing, so there is an opportunity to "get in there" and perhaps
later, when the instrument is more of an "every day thing", to go for the
"more difficult war". Please don't get me wrong, I love classical music.
Just trying to be realistic here.
I do not stand against some real talent such as Adler with his harmonica,
doing amazing things. I just think that such is viewed by the crowds as a
marvelous "circus act", thus has little endurance.
Of course these are only my opinions...
Best Regards
Dan Lavry
Gary Dahl
(switches) while playing on the stradella. It is awkward and non
musical. Todays modern accordions have very silent keyboards.
GD
Gary Dahl
..cutting out the highs is the norm for accordion recording
listening...cutting out the highs is still "no Joy" when listening to
the "no common sense" switch selection recordings.
Gary Dahl
Good comments Dan. It is a very complicated subject...the first goal
though is the elimination of the worthless piccolo reed. 4' is ok for
pipe organs but not metal reed instruments...too metalic! :)
Dennis Steckley
I know, Gary, and I wouldn't disagree. Just wanted to point out that there
are fine musical instruments where a certain amount of "noise" is tolerated
and expected. Another example that comes to mind is classical guitar where
one sometimes hears the sound of the fingers moving on the strings (left
hand, on the fretboard).
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <use...@d-and-d.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 4:58 PM
Subject: SML: Re: Re: Reed blocks for Classical Accordion
> Really-Reply-To: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
> Really-From: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
>
> Dennis (7/29/00 post), I'm only talking about the octave switching
> (switches) while playing on the stradella. It is awkward and non
> musical. Todays modern accordions have very silent keyboards.
>
> GD
>
> http://www.accordions.com/garydahl
> (listen to 3 jazz and 3 tango sound files)
>
> Gary Dahl
> Puyallup, Wa. USA (near Seattle)
>
>
> http://users.aol.com/accrdnmn/
> (hear Clarinet Polka and a French Tango...click on the eiffel tower)
>
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Dennis Steckley <st...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:009f01bffbc3$bbb41900$2eb3d6d8@default...
Steve Mobia
> because of the shrill piccolo reeds. This is especially prevalent from
> the Russian bayans.
The piccolo reed bank is my favorite, absolutely essential for classical
pieces. They do go out of tune easily because the reeds are so small
but so what? Get em tuned!
Steve Mobia
Gary Dahl
..that statement is one of the problems in the accordion world....i.e.,
irritate the masses and make sure there is no new converts that will
want to listen to accordion music....I have had about 40 years of pro
playing to verify over and over a master switch with piccolo irritates
the audience...as soon as I switch to bassoon, bandoneon, clarinet or a
pleasantly wet tuned violin the mood changes to acceptance. The piccolo
reed used as a solo voice can be a very unique effect for the right
choices.
The accordionist also has to be very aware of the correct bass switch to
use...the accordion only has one volume control. I suggest the bass
piano switch in 99% of my arrangements. (the 3 lowest bass reeds)
This also makes me wonder why the bandoneon seems to be accepted in
classical circles more often than the accordion. The bandoneon only uses
L and M... (no piccolo!)
srbarete
> ....I have had about 40 years of pro
> playing to verify over and over a master switch with piccolo irritates
> the audience...as soon as I switch to bassoon, bandoneon, clarinet or a
> pleasantly wet tuned violin the mood changes to acceptance.
Hi Gary (and Steve),
Gary, I disagree with you. Perhaps the reason your audience finds that what
you are playing is disagreeable really has nothing to do with the piccolo
reeds and instead they are irritated by something else. Perhaps you are
misreading their reaction.
But, it's possible that your accordion does not have pleasant piccolo reeds
with regard to their tuning relative to the other reed banks. Lesser reed
quality makes for lesser sound quality. The piccolo reeds in my accordion
are very pleasant sounding to me and to my audiences.
I guess another possibility is that perhaps there is something in your
hearing apparatus that makes you find the piccolo reed so displeasing? Some
people's hearing does not function well with certain pitches and therefore
one would find certain sounds very displeasing while being pleasing to
others. I remember that you've certainly made mention of not liking the
piccolo reed many times.
> The piccolo reed used as a solo voice can be a very unique effect for the
> right
> choices.
Yes, the piccolo reed bank extends the keyboard into the higher pitches just
as the bassoon reed extends it into the lower pitches. There is need for
the piccolo reeds to achieve appropriate pitches/octaves as called for by
the composer. Certainly we would not want to play everything in the piccolo
reed bank.
It is a very good choice for certain tone colors, as discussed in other
posts. I too particularly like the high-low reed combination, AKA organ. I
also like the sound of the high-middle reed combination, AKA oboe. Both
choices have their uses and are called for by composers who write for
accordion.
Composer Hans Brehme in Herbst Elegie (Autumn Elegy) wrote a first statement
using a single middle reed and added the high reed to the middle and a
corresponding free bass reed, in a particular octave relationship, in the
second statement for a very lovely sound. Adding the high reed to the
middle is also used to add a little volume to an otherwise quiet statement
(two reeds sounding rather than one). He plays with tone color and volume
by adding and subtracting reed banks. Certainly at the climax of the piece
he uses all treble reeds, calling for a 4-reed master: high, middle-middle,
low. It is a wonderful piece and the reed selections are very effective.
> The accordionist also has to be very aware of the correct bass switch to
> use...the accordion only has one volume control.
I disagree here too. There are techniques of playing whereby one can
accentuate the treble over the bass and vice versa by using partial
depression of keys/buttons. This does not involve cutting out reeds via
changing registers. Treble and bass uses the same air pressure for each
side of the accordion, but the player chooses which side is louder and which
softer by technique. If the key or button is only partially depressed,
while the key or button on the other side is fully depressed, there will be
varying amounts of air pressure over the reeds, which causes varying volume
despite having only one bellows. This is do-able and learnable.
Only the better reeds will allow the player to do this. This technique is
not easy to do and takes much practice to achieve. Student and advanced
level accordions/reeds will not do this. And professional accordions/reeds
will likely not do this. It's not until one gets to fine or world class
accordions/reeds that this performance element is available with any amount
of reliability.
At issue here as well, is that when reed quality is at fine or world class
level, as a key is depressed, each reed will sound simultaneously. With
student, advanced and professional instruments reeds will not sound
simultaneously. The sound one hears changes if the reeds do not sound
together. Some reeds change pitch slightly from onset of vibration, to full
vibration at true pitch, then changes again as the sound trails off at the
end. If the reeds don't start vibrating together, they will not sound at
pitch together.
Try this with your favorite accordion. Press the switch for one middle and
a high reed (oboe). Depress a single key. Softly open the bellows and
slowly apply gradually increasing pressure. As the reeds begin to sound, do
they each sound simultaneously or does one sound and then as the pressure
increases a little more the second reed sounds? Which sounded first the
middle or high reed? Try depressing another key. Try the same thing
again. Which reed sounds first? Is this uniform through the keyboard at
each pitch? In other words, does the middle reed always sound first? Or is
it the high reed first? Try the high reed and the low reed (organ). Which
sounds first here? Try in or out with the bellows to compare which reed
sounds first depending on bellows direction (remember there is one set of
reeds sounding when the bellows is opened and another set sounding when the
bellows is closed). Do the reeds sound in the same way with in or out
pressure on the bellows?
Chances are it's a toss-up as to which reed sounds first - it's not reliable
and predictable. On fine and especially on world class instruments the
reeds will begin vibrating at the same time, sound at true pitch with very
soft pressures and very vigorous pressures. They have a much wider volume
range than professional, advanced or student instruments. This is a small
part of the reliability and predictability of these instruments and why they
are so highly valued compared to professional, advanced or student
instruments.
Now don't get all upset with me for disagreeing with you, Gary! Just think
about it and then respond ... nicely, please!
Lynda Griffith,
Certified Accordion Family Instrument Repair Technician
Minnesota
Gary Dahl
whew!!! ...what an epic and much of it misguided and not representing
professional experience in the jazz, pop, easy listening, rock, blues,
etc. venues. <g> ...rather fairytale land in a way....
...you said...just think about it and respond nicely....that reminds me
of the movie "A Few Good Men" where Jack Nicholson portrays a no
nonsense base commander and says to Cruise...."if you ask me nicely!"
Well, I don't think the asking here was very nice but will disregard and
classify it as lacking "real world" experience in many venus. I know you
have ensemble and classical experience which is real...I guess. Can I
buy a recording of your solo expertise and music you have arranged and
composed?
In order to answer the epic we will have to break subjects down into
sections.
Lets start with your jazz, easy listening, blues, dance, lounge etc.
experience. Please tell us all about it and the type of accordion
sounds/switches you found effective and pleasing to the audience in
order to continue bookings and make a decent professional living. :)
srbarete
> re. Lynda 8/22/00
>
> whew!!! ...what an epic and much of it misguided and not representing
> professional experience in the jazz, pop, easy listening, rock, blues,
> etc. venues. <g> ...rather fairytale land in a way....
Hi Gary! So nice to hear from you too! If you'll read the thread title, I
think you'll see that the topic is Classical Accordion here, not jazz, pop,
etc. I responded to the thread - thought you did too.
> ...Well, I don't think the asking here was very nice but will disregard
> and
> classify it as lacking "real world" experience in many venus.
Gary, this is how I thought you would respond - I meant no offense. You
always get so bent thinking that someone is being nasty to you. I just
didn't agree with what you said. Please just respond to what I wrote, not
what you think I meant by it. What I wrote is what I meant, period.
> I know you
> have ensemble and classical experience which is real...I guess.
Yes, I have real experiences - at least the last time I was on-stage it
seemed very real. Besides, I don't know how it could be un-real...I guess.
> Can I
> buy a recording of your solo expertise and music you have arranged and
> composed?
We're not talking about these things. We were talking about piccolo reeds,
remember? You didn't like them...and so...?
> In order to answer the epic we will have to break subjects down into
> sections.
OK, I'm all ears. What have you got to say about each subject in my post.
Don't change the subject, please.
> Lets start with your jazz, easy listening, blues, dance, lounge etc.
> experience. Please tell us all about it and the type of accordion
> sounds/switches you found effective and pleasing to the audience in
> order to continue bookings and make a decent professional living. :)
Again, not the topic of discussion. You're changing the subject again.
Let's talk about what the thread is. :)
I'm waiting...
LG
srbarete
I forgot something else I wanted to mention in this discussion. Even when the
clarinet or bassoon reeds are played, either alone or in combination, there are
"piccolo reed" overtones which sound. So, whether or not the piccolo reed is
actually engaged, we still "hear" the piccolo pitches somehwere in the mix of it
all.
Gary Dahl
was classical but I was also talking about my experiences with various
accordion sounds over the years in many different professional venues
such as: jazz, pop top 40, easy listening, blues, etc. I don't care what
type of music it is...it is still coming out of an accordion and
audiences are still listening whether in pain or not. It would be a cold
day in hell before I suggested a piccolo, oboe, MMH or LMH in any of my
books or arrangements...how hokey it would sound. <g> Those switches
will work however when mixed into an orchestral ensemble. (other
instruments)
My daughter has been home for 2 weeks from conservatory and is learning
the accordion part to Kammermusik #1 op.24 by Hindemith. She will be
performing this in mid october at the conservatory with the New Music
Ensemble. (ten musicians)
She is the pianist for this conservatory group but is switching to
accordion for this piece. This piece requires a wide variety of switches
to blend effectively with the other instruments. By the way, is anyone
familiar with this piece? (Kammermusik means Chamber Music)
..who said I was bent?...make believe time... <g>
..respond to what I wrote...<you said..what I wrote is what I meant,
period.> huh? whats that? :0...same here I guess......<g>
..last time you were on stage...
..how many years and in how many venues have you been doing that? Lets
see, I've had about 8 to 24 hours a week of pro playing x about 40 years
equals......do you think I might know what I'm talking about?....so I'm
misreading their reaction? golly gee...than how was I booked steady at
so many clubs for so many years....I only experimented with the
obnoxious switches to confirm my theory and to pass on common sense to
my students....many of whom play professionally by the way.
My hearing? ...what a statement....yes, it is loud and clear...5 by
5....how is yours?
I play a Petosa AM1100, midi, 2 bassoon reeds and 2 middles tuned wet.
The reeds respond evenly....my former 2 accordions were top of the line
Sonolas...they both had great reeds by the best at the time...60's and
70's.
Steve Mobia
Well, see I personally dislike musette because it sounds harsh and out
of tune. Wet tuning is hardly ever used in serious music. Piccolo
reeds however are often called on.
It's personal taste of course to say wet tuned reeds sound awful. The
same is true of piccolo. For me piccolo by itself or the 'high low'
(organ) setting is great for certain passages. You don't like those
registers, okay, but you're not a mind reader when it comes to your
listeners. It's so strange that so many people feel they have a secret
sense about how everyone else thinks or reacts. We really no next to
nothing about these matters.
Steve Mobia
Gary Dahl
proof....can you play Jingle Bells in whole notes? I doubt
it!!.....stay in your cell at the "home!"
bme...@my-deja.com
>> ....I have had about 40 years of pro playing to verify over and
>>over a master switch with piccolo irritates the audience...as
>>soon as I switch to bassoon, bandoneon, clarinet or a
>>pleasantly wet tuned violin the mood changes to acceptance.
> Lynda wrote:
> Gary, I disagree with you. Perhaps the reason your audience
>finds that what you are playing is disagreeable really has nothing
>to do with the piccolo reeds and instead they are irritated by
>something else. Perhaps you are misreading their reaction.
> But, it's possible that your accordion does not have pleasant
>piccolo reeds with regard to their tuning relative to the other reed
>banks. Lesser reed quality makes for lesser sound quality. The
>piccolo reeds in my accordion are very pleasant sounding to me
>and to my audiences.
<snip>
Gary wrote:
>>The accordionist also has to be very aware of the correct bass
>>switch to use...the accordion only has one volume control.
Lynda wrote:
> I disagree here too. There are techniques of playing whereby
>one can accentuate the treble over the bass and vice versa by
>using partial depression of keys/buttons. <snip>
> Only the better reeds will allow the player to do this. This
>technique is not easy to do and takes much practice to achieve.
>Student and advanced level accordions/reeds will not do this.
>And professional accordions/reeds will likely not do this. It's not
>until one gets to fine or world class accordions/reeds that this
>performance element is available with any amount of reliability.
> At issue here as well, is that when reed quality is at fine or world
>class level, as a key is depressed, each reed will sound
>simultaneously. With student, advanced and professional
>instruments reeds will not sound simultaneously.<snip>
> Now don't get all upset with me for disagreeing with you, Gary!
>Just think about it and then respond ... nicely, please!
Hi Lynda.............haha .......good one......you're certainly granting
Ralph his wish for less boredom on the NG. My guess is that this
won't go over big at the Gary D homefront.....
This appears that you would like us to think Gary D is irritating his
audiences with poor playing on poor equipment. Since he has
played top end Petosa accordions for years and has them
serviced/tuned at Petosa Accordions, equipment problems seem
unlikely (this discussion of course doesn't include his current
acoustic custom LLMM Petosa). Judging from the responses of
those that have heard him play, I'd conclude that it probably isn't
his style or artistry in question.
From there you explain the differences between "world class "
reeds and those that are not. Again implying that Gary D should
check his equipment. My guess is that Gary's opinion is based on
the vast majority of accordions and players he has heard and
taught, and not that of the most select of instruments containing
premium "world class" reeds tuned to perfection.
It appears to me to be a discussion of "apples and oranges" from
which only entertaining banter will ensue . Possibly if you two sat
in the same room together listening to the same accordionists
playing a variety of music styles on average or above average
accordions, you would be able to share meaningful dialogue
concerning the merits or the H reed set as typically
encountered...(a level playing field, as it were).
I hope the two of you don't cross each other off their respective
Christmas card lists.........as I find the contributions of both of you to
be of great benefit ......and I thoroughly enjoy reading the varied
articles!
Best Regards,
Bruce
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Macromed5
> professional experience in the jazz, pop, easy listening, rock, blues,
> etc. venues. <g> ...rather fairytale land in a way....
Golly, even though I've killfiled this guy, his pompous words keep showing
up... zombie emails from the undead? [shudder] ;-)
Regards,
John "likes his piccolo reeds" Dowdell
srbarete
> It would be a cold
> day in hell before I suggested a piccolo, oboe, MMH or LMH in any of my
> books or arrangements...how hokey it would sound.
Hi Gary, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I can respect that, but
I was hoping for something more.
> My daughter has been home for 2 weeks from conservatory and is learning
> the accordion part to Kammermusik #1 op.24 by Hindemith. She will be
> ...switching to accordion for this piece. This piece requires a wide
> variety of switches
> to blend effectively with the other instruments. By the way, is anyone
> familiar with this piece? (Kammermusik means Chamber Music)
No, I'm not, but will see if I can get ahold of it either in score or
recording. Was the part written for accordion or piano? Again, you must be
very proud of her accomplishments!
> ..how many years and in how many venues have you been doing that? Lets
> see, I've had about 8 to 24 hours a week of pro playing x about 40 years
> equals......do you think I might know what I'm talking about?
No, obviously you don't know about reed responses or you would have had
something to say about my post. You always come back to your 40 years of
pro playing - this has nothing to do with discussing reed response and
caliber. I respect your many years of playing, teaching and arranging. I
suspect, however that your minor in music at the University of Washington
was general music studies in which you focused on music theory, and applied
to the accordion. I am still trying to get you to talk about piccolo reeds,
on another level. Since you are evading the discussion, I have my answer.
> ....so I'm
> misreading their reaction? golly gee...than how was I booked steady at
> so many clubs for so many years....I only experimented with the
> obnoxious switches to confirm my theory and to pass on common sense to
> my students....many of whom play professionally by the way.
Well, er, ah, since you **sometimes seem** to misread what people say here
on the NG, I thought it a possibility you were mistaken, but if you say you
know for sure what they were thinking, then I'll certainly have to believe
you! :-)
> My hearing? ...what a statement....yes, it is loud and clear...5 by
> 5....how is yours?
Yes, your hearing. What's wrong about asking that? Have you had it
tested? Ease on back into your chair. Yes, mine is pretty good and getting
better all the time, at least insofar as reeds are concerned. Studying
reeds and their characteristics is what I do. How long have you studied
reeds, reed qualities and tuning, Gary. And where did you study these
subjects and how many tuning jobs have you completed? And how many
accordions have you played, listening for reed response, reliability and
quality. What were those brands and makers? And how many have you compared
side-by-side? :-)
> I play a Petosa AM1100, midi, 2 bassoon reeds and 2 middles tuned wet.
> The reeds respond evenly....my former 2 accordions were top of the line
> Sonolas...they both had great reeds by the best at the time...60's and
> 70's.
Yes, very nice professional accordions, or you would not have selected
them. What kind of reeds do(did) they have? Swedish blue steel or
stainless. How were they tuned? And how wet is your double middle? How
are your double lows tuned?
Sorry Gary, I'm egging you on. You play this game with others on the NG all
the time, when it comes to opinions about pieces written and arrangements -
even choices of registers. Not a week goes by without your demanding of
someone, something about their chords or arrangement ideas and telling them
all the time about all your years of experience. I really don't mean any
offense, but when you say something so adamently about piccolo reeds and
then don't back it up with anything except opinion, then you're fair game.
You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it! :-)
Best regards Mr. Arranger!
Lynda
srbarete
> Hi Lynda.............haha .......good one......you're certainly granting
> Ralph his wish for less boredom on the NG. My guess is that this
> won't go over big at the Gary D homefront.....
Yes, I suppose I am. Are you reading, Ralph!? No, I've already found out
that it hasn't gone over very big in Puyallup. But, that's OK, Gary and I
have argued things before. Won't be the last, I suspect!
> This appears that you would like us to think Gary D is irritating his
> audiences with poor playing on poor equipment.
No, not at all. I just wanted to get him to say that he dislikes piccolo
reeds for some specific reason, rather than opinion. There is nothing poor
about professional accordions. Now, student accordions, yes maybe I would
have to agree.
> Since he has played top end Petosa accordions for years and has them
> serviced/tuned at Petosa Accordions, equipment problems seem
> unlikely
Certainly Petosa has a fine shop and technician. But, there are levels of
quality. One gets what he pays for. Gary has what he wanted and what sounds
good to him and that is good. I don't think that AM1100 is suited to a
Scarlatti Sonata, nor to the piece his daughter will play for her conservatory
group. As I said to Gary, the thread was talking about classical accordion,
not jazz and easy listening, etc. There is a difference and different
accordions are used for different purposes. There are definitely places to
use a piccolo reed as a solo player. Gary doesn't prefer this and he
obviously doesn't think it works for his style of music. But that's one
opinion about his specific scope of music and style of playing. Other people
use the piccolo reed to its best advantage, as players and as composers/
arrangers, etc.
> (this discussion of course doesn't include his current
> acoustic custom LLMM Petosa).
Yes, it does. Please read my post about piccolo overtones. I added it as an
afterthought.
> From there you explain the differences between "world class "
> reeds and those that are not. Again implying that Gary D should
> check his equipment.
No, not that Gary, specifically should check his equipment, although he
certainly could, as an exercise. Actually, he owes many of us and exercise
for all the exercises he has asked of the NG! :-) But, hopefully, some of
the rest of the NG will check their accordions and let us know what they
find. It's a wonderful exercise and very revealing. When one begins to
evaluate accordions this way, there are "ah-ha's" that take place!
> My guess is that Gary's opinion is based on the vast majority of accordions
> and players he has heard and taught, and not that of the most select of
> instruments containing
> premium "world class" reeds tuned to perfection.
In all Gary's years of playing and teaching, I'll bet he's never tested an
instrument that specifically. And I'll bet he's never listened that way, no
matter how good his hearing is.
> It appears to me to be a discussion of "apples and oranges" from
> which only entertaining banter will ensue .
No, not really. It's a discussion of reeds and reed quality. When one
realizes that each accordion has its strengths and each has its weaknesses,
then good things can happen. It doesn't mean that one accordion or maker is
necessarily bad and another good, period, end of discussion.
How many master woodcarvers use only one tool? How many master photographers
use only one camera or one lens, one film for all shots? In an hour's concert
I play at least seven different instruments! Each one has a specific quality
relating to it's reeds and tuning. We play a very eclectic program. One
accordion is not all things to all types of music, because of it's tuning and
reed quality. Yet we are careful about what instruments we play together and
with our violinist.
> Possibly if you two sat in the same room together listening ... you would be
> able to share meaningful dialogue...
I would certainly hope so!
> I hope the two of you don't cross each other off their respective
> Christmas card lists.........as I find the contributions of both of you to
> be of great benefit ......and I thoroughly enjoy reading the varied
> articles!
Nope, just a lively discussion! Somehow, I'd like to get the idea across to
this NG that just because someone disagrees, isn't cause to get upset.
Disagreement is sometimes more interesting that agreement. How many ways can
someone say, "Yes, I agree"? Now, "Yes, I agree" is boring, don't you think
Ralph?
Well, it's very late here and I get to do an hour's radio program tomorrow
morning. It would be best if I am awake at least! Goodnight!
Thanks, Bruce!
Lynda
Gary Dahl
you said...but I was hoping for more.....more of what? I could care less
about the engineering of reeds and the tuning process. I do appreciate
and need accordions that are tuned as perfectly as possible, reed
response (using the least amount of air per volume) and a beautiful
tone. I do know what a top of the line handling and beautiful sounding
accordion is all about. One of the best I've ever played is a 1949
Ace....a New York made accordion....it hardly used any air <g> and what
a beautiful sounding straight....New York accordions...those were the
best until it became too expensive to produce in the USA.
The Hindemith accordion part was written for accordion by Hindemith.
yes, 40 years of pro playing has something to do with comparing various
accordions...had to use substitute accordions once in a while. I worked
with Joe Spano for about 16 years side my side with one of the finest
tuners ever. My specialty was keyboards, bass mechanisms and amplifying
to name a few. We literally had thousands of accordionists come by to
say hello or for repair or lessons. From Magnante, Floren, Molinari, Van
Damme to all the others. I have played so many different brands and
dates of manufacture I wouldn't know where to start. Excelsiors of all
eras, Ace, Bell, Pan, Titano, Giulietti, Petosa, Sonola, Tonaveri, (made
by Sonola) International, Hohner, Scandelli, Diamond, Italo American,
Largo, and a few hundred imports with studio names.
There have been some minor variances of piccolo reed response and sound
of course but all basically shrill and metalic. The better reeds stay in
tune longer of course. Joe hated to tune the piccolo reeds but LMMH was
the norm in the old days. We never saw a wet violin in the early days
and never a LMMM...as in Toby's accordion. Now, most of the accordions
ordered from Petosa are LMMM with one middle reed tuned flat for a MM
wet. So, like I said, I certainly do not have the time nor the desire to
learn about all of the engineering aspects of reeds and tuning. I have
played the good, the bad and the ugly so I can tell the difference
immediately.
er ah er... I don't misread any more than you do... :) of course it is
sometimes easy to do depending on the choice of words and use in a
sentence.
Have you had your ears tested? <g>
Studying about reeds and tuning etc. still doesn't change the sound of
the piccolo reed to my tastes. Of course I haven't studied reeds and the
rest of that...that is the least of my desires...would knowing that make
me a better performer and bandleader? haha.. joke....I was primarily
playing and teaching...only repairing and customizing part time. As
the accordion started dying in the early 70's I flew professionally and
taught flying for a general aviation company at Boeing field than became
a regional sales manager for an outdoor footwear company. (fishing and
hunting) (steadier income...no weather cancellations :) Not once during
that time did I have that overwhelming desire to study reeds! <g>
Lynda,
keep tuning, studying and learning the characteristics of all those
reeds...if that is your life....the accordion world needs competent
tuners...thank god there are wonderful tuners available like you! :) :)
The Petosa reeds are the best you can buy from Petosa...they respond and
sound like they should for a $14,000 accordion! I stated before, the one
middle (flute) is tuned 15 cents flat...slow beat from the lowest note
and gradually increasing....the way it should be...not too aggressive
but absolutely gorgeous. Even tunes like Michelle and Fascination take
on a new personality when using double lead chords with wet violin....I
couldn't live without that capability....and the audiences confirm that!
:) The 2 bassoons are both 442 I believe...dry of course...one in the
chamber and one out.
You said, <sorry, I'm egging you on>....no, and that sounds childish.
Sure I can have an opinion about piccolo reeds and not manufacture the
damm things...I guess as a teacher, performer, published author I've
paid my dues to earn the right to specify and suggest the way I like an
accordion to sound while playing my arrangements and books and playing
easy listening music for hire. The switch police won't be knocking if
you use something different....the audience may mumble and use ear plugs
though! :)
...and it isn't weekly I challenge someone re. arranging, harmony etc.
That only comes about from a basic inaccurate statement/challenge that
could mislead the folks who just monitor and or some hacker knee jerk
comment out in left field...similar to an analogy of person claiming to
be able to fly IFR without any IFR experience...a big crash right away!
GD
Gary Dahl
for each style...its on automatic. I have played a tune called "piccolo
pete" a few times over the years...and I was sooo thankful I had the
solo piccolo reed available for this once every 10 year opportunity. :)
srbarete
Gary Dahl wrote:
> you said...but I was hoping for more.....more of what? I could care less
> about the engineering of reeds and the tuning process.
Yup, you're missing it completely.
> ...I do know what a top of the line handling and beautiful sounding
> accordion is all about. One of the best I've ever played is a 1949
> Ace.... ...I have played so many different brands and
> dates of manufacture I wouldn't know where to start. Excelsiors of all
> eras, Ace, Bell, Pan, Titano, Giulietti, Petosa, Sonola, Tonaveri, (made
> by Sonola) International, Hohner, Scandelli, Diamond, Italo American,
> Largo, and a few hundred imports with studio names.
This was a "Gary Dahl" question Gary. I was asking you something I knew you
didn't know how to answer. Lighten up and admit you have no idea what I'm
asking you. It's clear to me you don't get it, you don't want to, and
unless you stop and listen, you won't ever get it!
> There have been some minor variances of piccolo reed response and sound
> of course but all basically shrill and metalic. .... I have played the
> good, the bad and the ugly so I can tell the difference immediately.
Yadda, yadda, yadda...
> Studying about reeds and tuning etc. still doesn't change the sound of
> the piccolo reed to my tastes. Of course I haven't studied reeds and the
> rest of that...that is the least of my desires...would knowing that make
> me a better performer and bandleader? haha.. joke....
Yes Gary, it would and that's no joke! That's what I'm trying to tell you,
but you're so busy telling me about all the years you've played, you're not
hearing me. Have you sat down and actually tried the exercise I suggested
to everyone? If you would, I know you're smart enough to get an "ah-ha".
You could actually learn something here. I could teach an old dog a new
trick here!
> ...I was primarily playing and teaching...only repairing and customizing
> part time...I flew professionally and taught flying... became a regional
> sales manager for an outdoor footwear company...
Yup. Uh-huh. (Yadda, yadda, yadda)
> ...Lynda, keep tuning, studying and learning the characteristics of all
> those
> reeds...if that is your life....the accordion world needs competent
> tuners...thank god there are wonderful tuners available like you! :) :)
Thank you, Gary. You don't **know** that I'm wonderful, but I know I'm
good. If you believe half of what you said, then you should listen to me!!
Go try that exercise.
> ...middle (flute) is tuned 15 cents flat...slow beat from the lowest note
> and gradually increasing....the way it should be...
No, the way **you** like it! Not the way it should be. Tuning is a
preference every bit as personal as the style of shorts you wear or what you
like for breakfast in the morning. If your audiences like it, then you've
chosen well!
And let me see, how does this go...? Oh yes, something like this:
> ...and it isn't weekly I challenge someone re. **reeds and reed response**
> etc.
> That only comes about from a basic inaccurate statement/challenge that
> could mislead the folks who just monitor and or some hacker knee jerk
> comment out in left field...similar to an analogy of person claiming to
> be able to fly IFR without any IFR experience...a big crash right away!
Kaboom! Houston, we have a problem. Please - go do your homework, flyboy!
Lynda
Ralph Stricker
gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl) wrote:
>re.Lynda 8/23/00
>
>you said...but I was hoping for more.....more of what? I could care less
>about the engineering of reeds and the tuning process. I do appreciate
>and need accordions that are tuned as perfectly as possible, reed
>response (using the least amount of air per volume) and a beautiful
>tone. I do know what a top of the line handling and beautiful sounding
>accordion is all about. One of the best I've ever played is a 1949
>Ace....a New York made accordion....it hardly used any air <g> and what
>a beautiful sounding straight....New York accordions...those were the
>best until it became too expensive to produce in the USA.
>
>
>Gary Dahl
>Puyallup, Wa. USA (near Seattle)
>
>
>http://users.aol.com/accrdnmn/
>(hear Clarinet Polka and a French Tango...click on the eiffel tower)
>
I had an ACE Accordion in 1949. Emil Baldoni was the owner of Bell Accordions. I also used
Sonolas in the 50's and 60's. The ACE and Sonolas were fabulous accordions. Al Dronge the owner
of Sonola and Guild guitar co. was a dear friend of mine. Unfortunately he was killed in an
airplane crash in the late 60". (he was piloting the plane)
Regards
Ralph Stricker
Ralph Stricker "Silver Fox"
gary.blair
> > Now don't get all upset with me for disagreeing with you, Gary!
> >Just think about it and then respond ... nicely, please!
>
>
> Hi Lynda.............haha .......good one......you're certainly granting
> Ralph his wish for less boredom on the NG. My guess is that this
> won't go over big at the Gary D homefront.....
>
> This appears that you would like us to think Gary D is irritating his
> audiences with poor playing on poor equipment. Since he has
> played top end Petosa accordions for years and has them
> serviced/tuned at Petosa Accordions, equipment problems seem
> unlikely (this discussion of course doesn't include his current
> acoustic custom LLMM Petosa). Judging from the responses of
> those that have heard him play, I'd conclude that it probably isn't
> his style or artistry in question.
I was not going to respond to a thread where personal preferences are
involved,
but feel I have to put my two pence worth in.
The Majority of Scottish dance bands use the Picollo reed with the low. (in
2nd box playing)
Anyway, that was not what I wanted to talk about.
Who are you Bruce?? Are you a secret love child of Gary D??
Why are you constantly posting all thses recomendations for Gary D's
publications?
Why are you now getting involved in someone elses argument?? ( I know, I am
now;-)
Gary D is well capable of answering Lynda's comments.
I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye.
Call me MR cynical.
There you go Ralph, hope you enjoyed this one ;-)
regards
Gary Blair (Scotland)
Please note new E-mail address ( for the flames ;-)
Gary....@NTLworld.Com
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gary.blair
>
> > I play a Petosa AM1100, midi, 2 bassoon reeds and 2 middles tuned wet.
>
>
> Well, see I personally dislike musette because it sounds harsh and out
> of tune. Wet tuning is hardly ever used in serious music. Piccolo
> reeds however are often called on.
>
> It's personal taste of course to say wet tuned reeds sound awful. The
> same is true of piccolo. For me piccolo by itself or the 'high low'
> (organ) setting is great for certain passages. You don't like those
> registers, okay, but you're not a mind reader when it comes to your
> listeners. It's so strange that so many people feel they have a secret
> sense about how everyone else thinks or reacts. We really no next to
> nothing about these matters.
>
> Steve Mobia
Steve
Well put sir.
I happen to love Mussette tuning but do not feel the slightest animosity
toward you
because you don't. I have just ordered a Chrysler PT Cruiser a couple of
weeks ago as
I simply love it.I took my good lady up to the showroon the other day and
she positively
hates it. Did we fall out? NO, I respect her personal taste.
( well No wasn't exactly right afte she found out how much I was paying for
it ;-)
Each to their own.
Regards
Gary Blair (Scotland)
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srbarete
> Well, see I personally dislike musette because it sounds harsh and out
> of tune. Wet tuning is hardly ever used in serious music...
Hi Steve!
Actually wet tuning is used in "serious" music. The Germans love it. If
you listen to the Hohner Orchestra, you will hear wide tuning. They use it
very effectively and are very highly regarded around the world.
My teacher and ensemble leader, played with Mason Williams last week at Big
Top Chautauqua, the Carnegie Hall of Big Top venues. Mason Williams has
written a suite of three pieces and wrote an accordion part along with the
orchestra parts. He specifically wanted wide tuning. He plans to write
more for the accordion in the near future. Now, I guess one might argue
about the "seriousness" of Mason Williams work, but he does write orchestral
works.
Lynda
Gary Dahl
Joe Spano, Petosa, our studio's two former world champions and hundred's
of other top players; but maybe P Oliveros does with her deep listening
crap.
btw, 15 cents is Petosa's standard Italian musette...
..Ralph, refreshing to hear about your association with Baldoni...the
Ace was a great accordion.
GD
http://www.accordions.com/garydahl
(listen to 3 jazz and 3 tango sound files)
Gary Dahl
srbarete
> ...Gary D is well capable of answering Lynda's comments.
> I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye.
> Call me MR cynical.
Hi MR cynical! I only wish Gary **would** answer. I would certainly welcome
others jumping in here with comment. Did any of you try the exercise with the
reeds? I'd be interested to hear about what you heard with your accordions.
Or if you compared one accordion to another?
Lynda
gary.blair
> I had an ACE Accordion in 1949. Emil Baldoni was the owner of Bell
Accordions. I also used
> Sonolas in the 50's and 60's. The ACE and Sonolas were fabulous
accordions. Al Dronge the owner
> of Sonola and Guild guitar co. was a dear friend of mine. Unfortunately he
was killed in an
> airplane crash in the late 60". (he was piloting the plane)
> Regards
> Ralph Stricker
My friend recently bought a new Sonola and I was pleasantly surprised at
how good it was. Although not quite up to the standard of the older
original)
models , it was very sweet indeed. Another fabulous Accordion of the
''real'' sonola
era was the Busilachio which to me was '' simply the best''.
Regards
Gary Blair (scotland)
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bme...@my-deja.com
"gary.blair" <gary....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Anyway, that was not what I wanted to talk about.
> Who are you Bruce?? Are you a secret love child of Gary D??
> Why are you constantly posting all thses recomendations for
Gary D's
> publications?
> Why are you now getting involved in someone elses argument??
( I know, I am
> now;-)
> I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye.
> Call me MR cynical.
Warm greetings Gary B, nice to meet you also:
In answer to your first question - I'm a 50 year old Alfa Romeo
mechanic who happens to enjoy playing accordion for my
personal edification, the more I play, the more I want to learn to
play better. I'm a member of 3 San Francisco Bay Area accordion
clubs and occasionally play in front of the groups during monthly
meetings. There's more to me of course, but I fear the boredom
tears would start flowing.
In answer to your second question - hahahahahahahahaha
In answer to your third question - I have some of Gary' Dahl's
music, and it works for me and the type of music I like to play
(mainly French - Italian - Latin). Had I not found him by accident on
the web I would not be as happy with my accordion playing as I am
today. Since the ng is made up of many (some here for years -
some who lurk occasionally - some who are just discovering it) it
would be easy to not know that this music even exists let alone be
beneficial to one's playing. If you do a search on my posts in the
last twelve month period you will discover that your reference to
"constantly posting" is an extreme exaggeration (but it is free air
space, so feel free to say anything that you like!!).
In answer to your fourth question - Some posts just seem curious
to me...Gary D originally states his dislike for the piccolo reed (as
used in an accordion) and also suggests a concert type accordion
with 5 treble reeds LLMMM. 5 treble reed accordions are not
unknown, but that particular arrangement seemed interesting and
what would appear that this was what he was seeking comments
on. A few posts later, Lynda wants him to test his accordion to find
out if it is in tune and properly responsive as that may be why he
perceived his audience's displeasure with the H reed. Lynda (with
her experience) has a ton of expert info to offer and I was hoping
she would have addressed the LLMMM setup for a concert
accordion (as in the original post). Instead, the tread, although
entertaining, became quickly disjointed. Had you started the
identical post with the identical responses I would have posted
identically. Certainly anyone who is willing to post can probably
"answer for themselves", but different perspectives on an issue
elicit different responses.
I applaud your cynicism........I'm as cynical as they come......I'm not
sure what "more there is to meet your eye" but if you are not
satisfied please elaborate.
Going completely off topic here:
How is that PT Cruiser? Did you get a chance to drive it? It looks
like great fun, there are many in my area, they are much more
popular than the Prowler. What's the cost in Scotland?
Ok..... YOUR ....turn...............
>There you go Ralph, hope you enjoyed this one ;-) regards
>Gary Blair (Scotland)
Me too Ralph,
Toby Hanson
<srba...@northernnet.com> wrote:
> gary.blair wrote:
>
> > ...Gary D is well capable of answering Lynda's comments.
> > I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye.
> > Call me MR cynical.
>
> Hi MR cynical! I only wish Gary **would** answer. I would certainly welcome
> others jumping in here with comment. Did any of you try the exercise with the
> reeds? I'd be interested to hear about what you heard with your accordions.
> Or if you compared one accordion to another?
I keep my Excelsior right next to the computer (in the olden days I had
some long waits for downloads but with the new computer stuff I've got I
don't have that excuse any more) so I grabbed it and checked the reed
response between the clarinet and piccolo reeds. My results? Uneven reed
response across the keyboard at very low bellows pressures. Some keys
produced simultaneous attacks but most did not. The larger clarinet reeds
were slower to respond than the piccolo on the majority of keys. The
whole notion of not caring about reed response seems silly to me. I care
very much about reed response. It's like walking up to a pianist and
saying something like "I don't need a Steinway for this concerto; a Samick
will do fine." While Samick makes some fine pianos I have not found one
to compare to the finer Steinways, Mason & Hamlins, or even Baldwins that
I've played. I certainly wouldn't want a lesser piano for a demanding
application like performing a piano concerto with a full orchestra.
Similarly, I wouldn't want an accordion with uneven reed response for a
demanding concert performance. Fortunately I have an accordion that is up
to the tasks I give it. Please keep in mind that I'm not performing music
that demands absolute perfect reed response.
I haven't been reading much the past couple weeks as I've been busy
playing (and working on the car and watching baseball and cleaning my
apartment and...) but it seems like some things may liven up a bit around
here...
--
- This space for rent.
"Better shoot low sheriff, I think she's ridin' a Shetland."
-Bob Wills
Orest T Lechnowsky
On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT) use...@d-and-d.com writes:
>Really-Reply-To: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
>Really-From: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
>btw, 15 cents is Petosa's standard Italian musette...
Serious question: when you say 15 cents, do you mean 15 cents at middle C
or is that 15 cents throughout the whole treble range of the instrument?
Orest
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srbarete
> I wouln't waste one second with that dumb exercise...
Suit yourself.
srbarete
> I keep my Excelsior right next to the computer ... so I grabbed it and checked the
> reed
> response between the clarinet and piccolo reeds. My results? Uneven reed
> response across the keyboard at very low bellows pressures. Some keys
> produced simultaneous attacks but most did not. The larger clarinet reeds
> were slower to respond than the piccolo on the majority of keys.
Hey hiya Toby!
Has the excelsior been cleaned lately? You might clean some of that up with a good
cleaning, but I suspect it won't get alot better. I imagine there would be an even
greater difference between the piccolo and bassoon reeds.
> ... I care very much about reed response...Fortunately I have an accordion that
> is up
> to the tasks I give it. Please keep in mind that I'm not performing music that
> demands absolute perfect reed response.
Glad to hear it. Your Excelsior might respond better in the middle of the pressure
range too. The apertures may be large enough to let too much air pass through to
stimulate the reeds at a low pressure. It may fail you at the upper end of the
pressure scale too. I would think that your performance instrument has a larger
range of volume, as well as being more reliable?
Lynda
srbarete
> ... I'm a member of 3 San Francisco Bay Area accordion
> clubs ...
Hi Bruce!
I didn't realize you are in the Bay Area. Please say hi to the Galla-Rini
Camp crowd for me. I've missed Camp for several years now due to
performances elsewhere, but I'm always there in spirit, at least.
> ...Gary D ... suggests a concert type accordion with 5 treble reeds
> LLMMM. ...
> I was hoping she(Lynda) would have addressed the LLMMM setup for a
> concert
> accordion...
We have a Morino C system with a MMMLL, but it's keys are all white and I'm
not really comfortable playing a C system that is unmarked, so... I haven't
played it in awhile. As as aside, that instrument and I have a shakey
relationship. As I recall, I drew that instrument on a performance test
while in repair school. I'll have to pull it out and refresh my memory of
MMMLL.
The Columbo (PA) Ventura and Helen and I were talking about in the AAA
thread a couple weeks ago is a MMML. I really like the MMM and the LL is
very nice too. I am more familiar with LL as we have other instruments
with this tuning.
These tunings have a real place with some music. The audiences really like
MMM and certainly this (the true musette tuning) is great for French
musette pieces. We do Valse Supreme, a French musette by two Americans
Mindy and Addie Cere with the MMM Columbo.
We also play Indifference, a wonderful French musette piece by Joseph
Columbo and Tony Murena, but because of its difficulty, I use my Titano
Emperor because it has a much faster keyboard than the Columbo. The other
accordionist in the group also plays a Titano Emperor but it has a wide MM
(25+ cents), mine is dry, so the piece sounds appropriately
French-musette-like.
The Emperor with the wide MM is more versatile in some ways, but because of
its special tuning, other pieces must be played with a HML when dry tuning
is desirable. This is the instrument she used while playing with Mason
Williams last week.
This morning for the radio show I did, I took my Hohner Club Ouverture
because it is a MMM. Rather than play a PA I chose the Club because the
program became a good kick-off for the upcoming International Button Box
Festival at Ironworld here in Minnesota. I do play some tangos and
orchestral type pieces on the Club, but for the most part it is used for
ethnic pieces. It's wide tuned, but not so wide as a Slovenian tuned
button box. If you don't like wide tuning, you'd really not like the
Slovenian tuning - you'd need ear plugs and an umbrella.
Lynda
Gary Dahl
..just a guess
Toby Hanson
<srba...@northernnet.com> wrote:
> Toby Hanson wrote:
>
> > I keep my Excelsior right next to the computer ... so I grabbed it and
checked the
> > reed
> > response between the clarinet and piccolo reeds. My results? Uneven reed
> > response across the keyboard at very low bellows pressures. Some keys
> > produced simultaneous attacks but most did not. The larger clarinet reeds
> > were slower to respond than the piccolo on the majority of keys.
>
> Hey hiya Toby!
>
> Has the excelsior been cleaned lately? You might clean some of that up
with a good
> cleaning, but I suspect it won't get alot better. I imagine there would
be an even
> greater difference between the piccolo and bassoon reeds.
The Excelsior, like my kitchen, hasn't been cleaned lately but will be
getting some attention soon.
> > ... I care very much about reed response...Fortunately I have an
accordion that
> > is up
> > to the tasks I give it. Please keep in mind that I'm not performing
music that
> > demands absolute perfect reed response.
>
> Glad to hear it. Your Excelsior might respond better in the middle of
the pressure
> range too. The apertures may be large enough to let too much air pass
through to
> stimulate the reeds at a low pressure. It may fail you at the upper end
of the
> pressure scale too. I would think that your performance instrument has
a larger
> range of volume, as well as being more reliable?
As a matter of fact my performance instrument does respond more reliably
and with greater dynamics. That's why it's my performance instrument and
not my "sit near the computer to practice on while something's
downloading" instrument.
Toby Hanson
<srba...@northernnet.com> wrote:
>If you don't like wide tuning, you'd really not like the
> Slovenian tuning - you'd need ear plugs and an umbrella.
Would that be a *SILK* umbrella? :)
bme...@my-deja.com
> We have a Morino C system with a MMMLL, but it's keys are all
white and I'm
> not really comfortable playing a C system that is unmarked, so...
I haven't
> played it in awhile. As as aside, that instrument and I have a
shakey
> relationship. As I recall, I drew that instrument on a performance
test
> while in repair school. I'll have to pull it out and refresh my
memory of
> MMMLL.
Hi Lynda!
That would be great. Do you recall if the Morino was set up for
concert tuning (dry) or for a style that would require a lot of +/-
tuning to the reed banks to showcase musette play?
> We also play Indifference, a wonderful French musette piece by
Joseph
> Columbo and Tony Murena, but because of its difficulty, I use my
Titano
> Emperor because it has a much faster keyboard than the
Columbo. The other
> accordionist in the group also plays a Titano Emperor but it has
a wide MM
> (25+ cents), mine is dry, so the piece sounds appropriately
> French-musette-like.
Is your dry Emperor totally dry, (as in A 440 or 442 or the like)
across the board with the MM reeds sounding at the exact same
pitch?
I have an Excelsior AC LMMH with M+ at +24cents , and I
consider it extreme, (shows what a lightweight I am). Wow ...+25
must be an acquired taste and I'll bet you've got some instruments
above +30!
>
> The Emperor with the wide MM is more versatile in some ways,
but because of
> its special tuning, other pieces must be played with a HML when
dry tuning
> is desirable. This is the instrument she used while playing with
Mason
I was going to detune the AC .......but maybe not.....just have to be
careful to hit the right registers to avoid potential sonic problems.
> Slovenian tuning - you'd need ear plugs and an umbrella.
Tell me of Slovenian tuning.........throw out the numbers with wild
abandon!
Thanks for the note,
Orest T Lechnowsky
Thank you, thats what I assumed.
Orest
On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:28:05 -0700 (PDT) use...@d-and-d.com writes:
>Really-Reply-To: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
>Really-From: gary...@webtv.net (Gary Dahl)
>
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srbarete
> Do you recall if the Morino was set up for concert tuning (dry) ...
It is a drier tuning, but it's definitely got a beat to it, typical of
the German style. I was referring to the Hohner Orchestra in another
post. They use a wider tuning and it is a very distinctive sound.
> Is your dry Emperor totally dry, (as in A 440 or 442 or the like)
> across the board with the MM reeds sounding at the exact same
> pitch?
My Emperor is very typically dry tuned - almost equal at A440 area of the
keyboard. I have a correction to make too. The other Emperor is only
6-10 cents different in the double middles, but it still has a fair bit
of beating. A Hohner Musette we use sometimes is -10, at pitch, +15 and
therefore the range of difference in the three middles is about 25 cents.
> Tell me of Slovenian tuning.........throw out the numbers with wild
> abandon!
On a three reed instrument maybe +30 or +40 between the detuned flat and
sharp reeds. This must be an acquired taste, but I do like the Slovenian
boxes in limited doses. I have a new 4-row coming from Italy, if it ever
gets here, and it will be much wilder than my Club MMM.
Lynda
srbarete
> Would that be a *SILK* umbrella? :)
Yup, Frankie would be insulted if it were not! I just arranged Silk
Umbrella for Club accordion in tablature. Even though the Club is not
so wild as the Slovenian boxes, it still sounds great. A wonderful
tune!
Lynda
Toby Hanson
<srba...@northernnet.com> wrote:
Two years ago I played piano with the Seattle Banjo Orchestra and I had
the opportunity to meet banjoists from around the US and Canada. One
person I met told me that the banjo band in Milwaukee is required to play
"Silk Umbrella" wherever they go because the crowds expect it from almost
*EVERYBODY* not just polka players.
Dennis Steckley
I knew you were a man of impeccable taste!
Dennis Steckley
"For I am possessed of a cat, surpassing in beauty, from whom I take
occasion to bless Almighty God."
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary.blair" <gary....@ntlworld.com>
I have just ordered a Chrysler PT Cruiser
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----- Original Message -----
From: <use...@d-and-d.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 2:57 AM
Subject: SML: Re: Reed blocks for Classical Accordion
> Really-Reply-To: srbarete <srba...@northernnet.com>
> Really-From: srbarete <srba...@northernnet.com>
>
> Gary Dahl wrote:
>
> > It would be a cold
> > day in hell before I suggested a piccolo, oboe, MMH or LMH in any of my
> > books or arrangements...how hokey it would sound.
>
> Hi Gary, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I can respect that,
but
> I was hoping for something more.
>
> > My daughter has been home for 2 weeks from conservatory and is learning
> > the accordion part to Kammermusik #1 op.24 by Hindemith. She will be
> > ...switching to accordion for this piece. This piece requires a wide
> > variety of switches
> > to blend effectively with the other instruments. By the way, is anyone
> > familiar with this piece? (Kammermusik means Chamber Music)
>
> No, I'm not, but will see if I can get ahold of it either in score or
> recording. Was the part written for accordion or piano? Again, you must
be
> very proud of her accomplishments!
>
> > ..how many years and in how many venues have you been doing that? Lets
> > see, I've had about 8 to 24 hours a week of pro playing x about 40 years
> > equals......do you think I might know what I'm talking about?
>
> No, obviously you don't know about reed responses or you would have had
> something to say about my post. You always come back to your 40 years of
> pro playing - this has nothing to do with discussing reed response and
> caliber. I respect your many years of playing, teaching and arranging. I
> suspect, however that your minor in music at the University of Washington
> was general music studies in which you focused on music theory, and
applied
> to the accordion. I am still trying to get you to talk about piccolo
reeds,
> on another level. Since you are evading the discussion, I have my answer.
>
> > ....so I'm
> > misreading their reaction? golly gee...than how was I booked steady at
> > so many clubs for so many years....I only experimented with the
> > obnoxious switches to confirm my theory and to pass on common sense to
> > my students....many of whom play professionally by the way.
>
> Well, er, ah, since you **sometimes seem** to misread what people say here
> on the NG, I thought it a possibility you were mistaken, but if you say
you
> know for sure what they were thinking, then I'll certainly have to believe
> you! :-)
>
> > My hearing? ...what a statement....yes, it is loud and clear...5 by
> > 5....how is yours?
>
> Yes, your hearing. What's wrong about asking that? Have you had it
> tested? Ease on back into your chair. Yes, mine is pretty good and
getting
> better all the time, at least insofar as reeds are concerned. Studying
> reeds and their characteristics is what I do. How long have you studied
> reeds, reed qualities and tuning, Gary. And where did you study these
> subjects and how many tuning jobs have you completed? And how many
> accordions have you played, listening for reed response, reliability and
> quality. What were those brands and makers? And how many have you
compared
> side-by-side? :-)
>
> > I play a Petosa AM1100, midi, 2 bassoon reeds and 2 middles tuned wet.
> > The reeds respond evenly....my former 2 accordions were top of the line
> > Sonolas...they both had great reeds by the best at the time...60's and
> > 70's.
>
> Yes, very nice professional accordions, or you would not have selected
> them. What kind of reeds do(did) they have? Swedish blue steel or
> stainless. How were they tuned? And how wet is your double middle? How
> are your double lows tuned?
>
> Sorry Gary, I'm egging you on. You play this game with others on the NG
all
> the time, when it comes to opinions about pieces written and
arrangements -
> even choices of registers. Not a week goes by without your demanding of
> someone, something about their chords or arrangement ideas and telling
them
> all the time about all your years of experience. I really don't mean any
> offense, but when you say something so adamently about piccolo reeds and
> then don't back it up with anything except opinion, then you're fair game.
> You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it! :-)
>
> Best regards Mr. Arranger!
> Lynda
>
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srbarete
> ... the banjo band in Milwaukee is required to play
> "Silk Umbrella" wherever they go because the crowds expect it from almost
> *EVERYBODY* not just polka players.
Yes, it is definitely a popular piece in the midwest - everyone seems to know
it and ask for it. Did you play it at Ironworld?
Lynda
Toby Hanson
<srba...@northernnet.com> wrote:
Through some twist of fate I avoided playing not only "Silk Umbrella" but
also "Moja Dekla" and "Iron Range Polka." I guess it was because we were
the only Scandinavian band and so we leaned more heavily on the
Scandinavian repertoire. Of course it didn't hurt that we were also
conveniently separated from the rest of the bands... :)
srbarete
> Through some twist of fate I avoided playing not only "Silk Umbrella" ...because
> we were the only Scandinavian band ...Of course it didn't hurt that we were also
> conveniently separated from the rest of the bands... :)
Oh boy, isn't this the truth! Next year a real dance floor stage, or bust!!! You
guys were certainly good sports about their mix-up.
We're going through the same where-to-put-everyone problem now for the upcoming
Button Box Festival because we need a space that can be locked to protect the
museum instruments and a place to perform. The instruments may end up in the back
corner again - the small one with the gorgeous view of the pit lake - but
completely off the beaten path. They're also discussing use of the big new open
area across from the theater, but then we'll have to move the displays at night to
lock the instruments up. They use the theater for alot of Button Box players
because they are not really dance players. So, the dilemma continues. We've been
a part of Polka Fest and Button Box Festival for 5 years and we have the same
security problem each year, and in a different location of that building each
year! When they have their remodelling and reorganizing done, maybe these things
will get settled.
But, despite the fact that you were "conveniently separated" into "our space", you
were greatly enjoyed by all who heard you, even if you didn't play Silk Umbrella,
Moja Dekla and Iron Range Polka while visiting the very heart of the great Iron
Range!
Lynda