Concertina question
Steve Holland
concertina for this.
Thanks Steve
DavBarnert
>I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good
>style concertina for this.
A good case can be made for any of several answers here. In fact,
one might say that there is no wrong answer.
What sort of concertina (if any) might have been used
traditionally aboard ships is a difficult one to answer.
Concertinas have many delicate moving parts inside, and it is now
commonly thought that no good concertina would have survived long
in the salt spray. Wood and cardboard components would swell and
stick, leather would deteriorate, and metal would corrode. Perhaps
the inexpensive German or Italian-style "Anglos" would have been
best suited to those conditions, if only because they are easier
to replace.
But let's assume you'll be doing most of your playing on terra
firma. You asked for a "good style concertina" and I think that
implies one made according to the English construction techniques,
whether it be an "English" concertina, an "Anglo" concertina, or
any of the several "Duet" concertinas. There are certainly modern
recordings of Sea Shanty-type songs being performed on all of the
above. Check out the recordings, for instance, of Louis Killen
(English Concertina), John Kirkpatrick (Anglo), Tim Laycock (Duet)
and many others and see what sort of sound you prefer. But set
your sites on a well-made English construction instrument for the
characteristic concertina sound and durability.
Also poke around the information files at
<http://www.concertina.net> and the concertina FAQ at
<http://www.concertina.info>.
Have fun.
______ /\/\/\/\
<______> | | | | | David Barnert
<______> | | | | | <davba...@aol.com>
<______> | | | | | Albany, N.Y.
<______> \/\/\/\/
Ventilator Concertina
Bellows Bellows
(Vocation) (Avocation)
Marcus Streets
> Steve Holland wrote:
>
> >I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good
> >style concertina for this.
>
>
I think your best bet is to take yourself down to a shop that sells
concertinas and try a few out.
About a year ago I was tempted to buy a concertina at the hobgoblin
stall at the Cambridge Folk festival. At the festival they had a range
of new boxes, but no antiques
After trying a few I decided to buy a cheap Stagi Anglo to see if I
could get my head and fingers around the instrument and find time to put
in regular practice. However while it served a useful purpose I did
suffer from sticking buttons and slow reeds.
So once hooked I started looking round for something better. I happened
to find a better box going cheap on e-bay. It is a Lachenal that has new
bellows and loving attention to the action. The difference is chalk and
cheese. But, unless you love the excitement of auctions I would probably
not recomend this route - most boxes that do come up are fetching the
market price and you do nto have the chance to try first.
If you can find/afford a proper English-made concertinal, of whatever
system, not only will it be easier to play, especially if properly
restored - it will keep its value if you ever need to sell.
Marcus
Jack J. Woehr
>
> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good style
> concertina for this.
First of all, you probably don't mean shanties ... they are "chantés", sung
acapella. If you mean tradition English tunes, the English concertina was
designed for this.
But if you want to go beyond genre and play also classical, modern pop and
jazz, the Hayden Duet concertina is the latest and greatest entry in the
concertina family. See http://www.well.com/~jax/rcfb/hayden_duet.html
--
Jack J. Woehr # Ceterum censeo
PO Box 51, Golden, CO 80402 # in herbas belli
http://www.softwoehr.com # ab idem desistamus.
Don Tuite
<jwo...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Steve Holland wrote:
>>
>> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good style
>> concertina for this.
>
>First of all, you probably don't mean shanties ... they are "chantés", sung
>acapella. If you mean tradition English tunes, the English concertina was
>designed for this.
>
>But if you want to go beyond genre and play also classical, modern pop and
>jazz, the Hayden Duet concertina is the latest and greatest entry in the
>concertina family. See http://www.well.com/~jax/rcfb/hayden_duet.html
Glory be, Jack. If you want to argue that stamp-and-go shanties, if
accompanied at all, were accompanied by fiddle or tin whistle, there's
plenty of evidence for that, the concertina being too expensive and
mechanically intricate an instrument for long duty at sea. But
there's more to authentic sea songs than shanties, and forebitters
have been accompanied by all sorts of instruments. I believe the most
authentic collections are Stan Hugil's three books. (Although Hugil
bowlderized the dirty verses)
Online, a good resource is Dutch: (these guys play trekharmonika)
http://www.ivanderputten.nl/Shanty.htm
The best squeezebox playing of sea songs that I've heard has been by
San Francisco's Riggy Rackin, who plays a Colin Dipper English
concertina and is a consumate musician with a very understated style.
(He often attends the first-Saturday evenings at the Hyde Street Pier.
At that same venue, Skip Henderson will often take a more extravagant
aproach to accompanyment on his Hohner pokerwork -- although Skip is
as likely to do "Chivalrous Shark" as "Spanish Ladies.")
Don
Jim Lucas
> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest
> a good style concertina for this.
John Townley, Bob Walser, Jurek Rogacki, and many other shanty singers
play the anglo.
Louis Killen, Jeff Warner, Frank Woerner, and myself are among the many
who sing shanties and also play the English.
Riggy Rackin has played both anglo and English over the years, though I
think these days he works mainly with the English. John Roberts also
plays both, though mostly anglo in recent years.
Bob Webb and one of the members of Stormalong John (the group that backed
Stan Hugill on recordings) both play the MacCann duet.
Off hand, I can't think of any shanty singers who play Crane duet, aside
from myself (I play some Crane and anglo, though not "as well as" the
English) and my friend Lars Willadsen (we have performed together in
Denmark and Poland).
Now for the technical quibble: Strictly speaking, "sea shanties" are
*work* songs, and under working conditions would never be accompanied by
an instrument. That would be a waste of a good pair of hands. The songs
sailors sang in their leisure time were usually more lyrical, often
accompanied, and rarely called "shanties" by sailors. "Leaving of
Liverpool" is an example that most folks know.
Having said that, one could still use the concertina to add harmony when
singing a work shanty in a concert situation, and I sometimes do. But not
if I have an audience willing to sing along.
It's also fairly well accepted that on shipboard fiddles far outnumbered
squeezeboxes, and among the latter melodeons were more numerous than
concertinas. But the only really important criterion is what feels right
and sounds right to you. As far as I know, no sailor was ever
un-shanghaied because he played the "wrong" instrument -- not even musical
saw or Hawaiian nose flute, -- though it's possible that some cellists and
even guitarists switched to the fiddle for reasons of portability.
Whatever you do, have fun!
/Jim Lucas
Keith Cunningham
--
"Steve Holland" <ahol...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:Y4uHa.4194$dE5.1...@news.alltel.net...
> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good style
> concertina for this.
>
> Thanks Steve
The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
KeithC
Stuart Estell
> "Steve Holland" <ahol...@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:Y4uHa.4194$dE5.1...@news.alltel.net...
> > I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest a good style
> > concertina for this.
> >
> > Thanks Steve
"Keith Cunningham":
> The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
Hurray, the old English vs Anglo argument. :-)
The Anglo _will_ play in any key (so long as you have a 30+ button
instrument) but not across its entire range. If you play it in the "english"
style (chords on the left hand, melody on the right) then, sure, it's a lot
easier to play in the home keys (C, G, D, F on a C/G box) than in any
others. But it's nowhere near as limited as the brevity of your comment
might suggest, Keith. :-)
Steve, all I can really do is echo what others have said - try and find some
instruments of different systems that you can try out (anglo, english, and
any duet concertinas) and see what suits you. They'll all do the job, but
one fingering system will probably make more sense to you than the others.
Cheers
Stuart
DoN. Nichols
>Steve Holland wrote ...
>> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest
>> a good style concertina for this.
>
>John Townley, Bob Walser, Jurek Rogacki, and many other shanty singers
>play the anglo.
And the cheap German concertina which inspired the Anglo was
more likely to have been to sea than a quality English construction
concertina for several reasons:
1) The English system, and to a lesser extent the English-made
Anglos were well beyond the reach of the average sailor.
(Actually, among the free reed instruments, the most common one
based on research in logbooks by people on the staff at the
Mystic Seaport Museum was the single-row melodion -- not that
different from the anglo, actually, other than shape.)
2) The conditions on shipboard tended to assure that no concertina
was ever used for more than a single trip. (It was falling
apart by the end of the trip.) Sailors would then pick up a new
cheap German concertina for the next trip.
3) The anglo system -- or the melodion -- are much simpler to
convince to produce something resembling accompaniment to a
song in untutored hands. And who among the class of sailors
could afford tutoring?
>Louis Killen, Jeff Warner, Frank Woerner, and myself are among the many
>who sing shanties and also play the English.
Agreed!
>Riggy Rackin has played both anglo and English over the years, though I
>think these days he works mainly with the English. John Roberts also
>plays both, though mostly anglo in recent years.
>
>Bob Webb and one of the members of Stormalong John (the group that backed
>Stan Hugill on recordings) both play the MacCann duet.
Which was originally an expensive music-hall instrument mostly,
and *very* unlikely to appear in the hands of a sailor -- unless perhaps
it was stolen. :-) But I can testify that in hands like Bob Webb's, it
does a wonderful job.
>Off hand, I can't think of any shanty singers who play Crane duet, aside
>from myself (I play some Crane and anglo, though not "as well as" the
>English) and my friend Lars Willadsen (we have performed together in
>Denmark and Poland).
>
>Now for the technical quibble: Strictly speaking, "sea shanties" are
>*work* songs, and under working conditions would never be accompanied by
>an instrument. That would be a waste of a good pair of hands. The songs
>sailors sang in their leisure time were usually more lyrical, often
>accompanied, and rarely called "shanties" by sailors. "Leaving of
>Liverpool" is an example that most folks know.
Agreed! However -- not all work was done to shanties. Some
Navys did not allow the use of shanties at all -- but they did often
provide a fiddler sitting on the head of the capstan as the sailors were
trundling around it. Pulling up anchor is a *long* process, and it
helped to keep the sailors in step and at the same speed. (Of course,
military ships typically had a lot of spare hands, because they were
needed for fighting, which reduced the need for shanties -- which made
it easier for fewer hands to do a given job, by coordinating the effort.
(I remember a personal example of this, when I was one of a group on a
large gaff-rigged ship which once had been used for laying a
transatlantic cable. There were a group of us attempting to start the
gaff and sail on its way up the mast, and we were having difficulty,
until a friend started a shanty, at which point it seemed to float up
the mast.
Note also that the shantyman *did* have a job -- other than the
singing. He was the one who was holding a slip knot loose around the
line which was being pulled in. When the line was as full in as it
(could be)/(needed to be), it was necessary for almost every body to let
go of it, and the closest hand to belay it to hold it in position. If
not for the slip-knot, the line would have gone sailing back through the
block, abrading the skin from the hands of that one poor individual.
Stan Hugil (one 'l' or two -- I *should* check :-) told of a conflict
between two who wanted to be shantyman aboard one ship, and one greased
the slipknot so the other would appear to not be performing his job
properly.
>Having said that, one could still use the concertina to add harmony when
>singing a work shanty in a concert situation, and I sometimes do. But not
>if I have an audience willing to sing along.
>
>It's also fairly well accepted that on shipboard fiddles far outnumbered
>squeezeboxes, and among the latter melodeons were more numerous than
>concertinas. But the only really important criterion is what feels right
>and sounds right to you. As far as I know, no sailor was ever
>un-shanghaied because he played the "wrong" instrument -- not even musical
>saw or Hawaiian nose flute, -- though it's possible that some cellists and
>even guitarists switched to the fiddle for reasons of portability.
Considering what some of the sailors would use to make music
(look up fu-fu band sometime in Hugil's masterwork), anything which
would produce reliable notes somewhat on pitch were a great benefit.
>Whatever you do, have fun!
That is what matters, after all.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Pete Loud
Your comments about sea shanties making heaving ship's ropes easier,
reminded me of two other occurrences of "sea shanties".
In India, and in Java I have come across villagers on the beach pulling in a
fishing net, half mile long nets forming a semi-circle with each end being
pulled. There was the equivalent of a "Shantyman" leading the singing and
the village women joined in the chorus as the heaved away.
Incidentally while in Java, the high humidity of the wet season ruined my
concertina. The leather went mouldy, the wood warped, the reeds rusted and
veneer lifted. I have no doubt at all that the constant high humidity and
salt air at sea would ruin a concertina very quickly.
Cheers,
Pete Loud
Jim Lucas
> > I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone
> > suggest a good style concertina for this.
Jack J. Woehr responded...
> First of all, you probably don't mean shanties ...
No, he probably does. Shanties and forebitters.
> ...they are "chantés", sung acapella.
You may call them what you will; the English and American sailors who used
them for their work seem to have called them "shanty". While it seems
reasonable that this might be a corruption of the French word for singing,
it's not incorrect to use the English pronunciation, spelling, and
meaning, any more than it is to use the English words "mutton", "pork",
"veal", and "beef" (the French counterparts of which are names of animals,
not just meats).
> If you mean tradition English tunes,...
If he did, I think he would have said so. "Sea Shanties" seems pretty
unambiguous to me.
> ...the English concertina was designed for this.
Actually, it wasn't. It's generally accepted that it was *designed* as a
substitute for the violin in drawing rooms and classical concert
situations. Certainly, the early market consisted more of those sorts
than of folks who played mainly traditional English tunes.
> But if you want to go beyond genre and play also
> classical, modern pop and jazz, the Hayden Duet
> concertina is the latest and greatest entry in the
> concertina family.
Latest? I suppose so. Greatest? I'm sure that's entirely a matter of
opinion.
As for those other styles of music, I've heard them all played beautifully
on both anglo and English, as well as on various kinds of duets.
/Jim Lucas
Jim Lucas
> In India, and in Java I have come across villagers on
> the beach pulling in a fishing net, half mile long nets
> forming a semi-circle with each end being pulled.
> There was the equivalent of a "Shantyman" leading
> the singing and the village women joined in the chorus
> as the heaved away.
I understand that boat-based fishermen may also use songs -- don't know if
*they* call 'em "shanties" -- for hauling nets in places like Bermuda and
even Chesapeake Bay. I've heard a few, and even learned one from another
shantyman.
/Jim
Jim Lucas
> ...one fingering system will probably make more sense
> to you than the others.
Keeping in mind that the English/anglo difference isn't just the location
of the notes, but whether bellows reversal may be required, and even the
way the instrument is held. (One could also tally various other
differences among the types, if one felt the need.)
:-) /Jim
Jim Lucas
> The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
1) Mine will. Or close enough. On my 30-button Ceili, I can play major
triads in every key except C# and G#, while except for the low G# I have
every chromatic note from the fiddle's low G up 2½ octaves to D, and
several notes beyond in both directions. My Jeffries instruments have
more buttons and more possibilities.
2) On an anglo it's often easy to vamp chords in one hand while playing
melody in the other hand, something that's virtually impossible on the
English. However, on the English it's often easy to play a moving melody
against a constant background (e.g., a drone), something that's usually
thwarted on the anglo by the need to reverse the bellows.
3) Few folks find a use -- much less a need -- for *every* key. Most
singers get along fine sticking to two keys a fifth apart (like an anglo),
switching between them depending on the range of the song relative to the
tonic. Similarly, while traditional tunes can be found in F, Bb, and
especially A, as well as D, G, C, and their relative minors, the few that
modulate into E, B, or Eb won't be heard at most sessions, and at the
moment I can't think of any in F# or C# (though I suspect someone will
come up with a few).
4) It's not the *instrument* that does the playing.
I'm much more of an English player than an anglo player, but I'm not
bigoted, and I couldn't let that misleading oversimplification go
unchallenged.
/Jim Lucas
Jim Lucas
> Some Navys did not allow the use of shanties at all --
> but they did often provide a fiddler sitting on the head
> of the capstan as the sailors were trundling around it.
True. This varied by both place and time, from year to year and even
century to century. Also between commercial and naval vessels of the same
country.
> Stan Hugil (one 'l' or two -- I *should* check :-)
Two... at least on his books and recordings. ;-)
/Jim
Jack J. Woehr
> > But if you want to go beyond genre and play also
> > classical, modern pop and jazz, the Hayden Duet
> > concertina is the latest and greatest entry in the
> > concertina family.
>
> Latest? I suppose so. Greatest? I'm sure that's entirely a matter of
> opinion.
That's true. Okay, the Hayden Duet is unarguably more versatile than
the English concertina. Rich modern harmonies and chromatic, counterpuntal
passages which are technically impossible on either the English or the Anglo-Irish
can be performed on the Hayden.
However, we will admit that in either the English or Anglo-Irish in the hands of a
licensed practitioner melody can played so rapidly as to be deadly! :-)
Keith Cunningham
"Jim Lucas" <j...@danbbs.dk> wrote in message
news:bcqlmc$2n05$3...@news.cybercity.dk...
I'm not particularly bigoted either. I'm astonished by what some musicians
can do with the Anglo. Of all the squeezeboxes I find the Anglo the most
difficult to play well. I play G/D melodeon, piano accordion, continental
chromatic accordion, and English concertina, but the Anglo defeats me.
Depending upon the room, the air temperature, the amount of baccy-smoke, and
how much I've eaten, I sometimes feel more comfortable with a song if I take
it up or down by just one tone. That's not a problem with the English.
Sometimes, though, I could do with a few more notes at the bottom end. My
concertinas are trebles, but the grass on the other side always being
greener and so forth, I often think that I'd prefer a tenor for song
accompaniment.
KeithC
DoN. Nichols
And there are some styles in which the work was done during the
rests between verses -- the singing was used for spacing out the bursts
of work. And it typically was done with popular music from the radio in
the 1940-1960 period. We think that they were from the islands off
South Carolina, but are no longer sure. We heard them a few years ago
at the Mystic Seaport Museum's Sea Music Festival.
DoN. Nichols
>Keith Cunningham wrote ...
>> The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
[ ... ]
> 2) On an anglo it's often easy to vamp chords in one hand while playing
>melody in the other hand, something that's virtually impossible on the
>English.
Though it should be easy enough on most if not all of the duet
systems.
However -- that brings me to a question:
I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but I have
never been exactly clear just what that means. Since I normally play
the English, this may be why I don't know what it means. However, could
you manage to describe in text (since you are too far away these days to
actually *show* me) just what it means?
And there may be some others on the list who are similarly
puzzled -- or I may be the only one in this state of woeful ignorance. :-)
Thanks,
Jack J. Woehr
> I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but I have
> never been exactly clear just what that means.
It's not a rigorous term, but generally as regards guitar it means strumming
'em thick on the one and three downbeat and muting them by releasing pressure after
a quick strum on the two and four. One vamp-a three vamp-a ... since jazz chords
tend to change on the one and three.
stevesaccordionshop
--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
> "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>
> > I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but I
have
> > never been exactly clear just what that means.
>
Vamping means to keep repeating the progression and/or notes within
the confined repeat measures. The purpose is to maintain repetitious
background behind an announcement, i.e., the stating of the music
title going to be performed and various sundries.
This can occur at the beginning of a piece; within the piece; and
even at the end, as in 'fading out.'
Steve Navoyosky
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Vamping means to keep repeating the progression and/or notes within
> the confined repeat measures. The purpose is to maintain repetitious
> background behind an announcement
Or to given the audience time to finish applauding something
particularly fancy, or to let them finish laughing at something
particularly funny, or to otherwise wait for them to settle down and pay
attention.
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign | "may'ron DaroQbe'chugh vaj bIrIQbej" --
/\ Stamp out HTML mail! | "Put down the squeezebox & nobody gets hurt."
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> And there are some styles in which the work was done during the
> rests between verses
And, as the experts have pointed out, some of the things which are
commonly performed with a clear rhythm were originally more like
"ready-set-HAUL <long and variable pause> ready-set-HAUL".
Note too that work songs migrated from one set of workers to another.
Bull Jine appears to have started as a railroad song ("Clear away the
track and let the John Bull run..." before going to sea.
And, as previously noted, there was music other than work songs...
recreational, ritual, etc.
I agree with the point that it's unlikely many concertinas went to sea,
and that it's good to know something about the history of the music
you're performing... but I'm also a firm believer in playing what you
want to play on the instrument you want to play it on.
I've played concertina on the decks of the Clearwater -- but I must
admit that I deliberately brought the Klingenthal since I didn't want to
subject the Jeffries to brackish spray.
(Which brings up an interesting question: How corrosion-resistant _are_
brass reeds?)
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> I play G/D melodeon, piano accordion, continental
> chromatic accordion, and English concertina, but the Anglo defeats me.
No tool fits all hands equally well... which brings us back to the
advice that folks may want to try playing (or at least playing with)
several styles and see what seems to make sense to them, though they
should also be aware of the trade-offs.
> up or down by just one tone. That's not a problem with the English.
That's true. There are times when I'd kill for a "transpose" button...
Jim Lucas
> I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but
> I have never been exactly clear just what that means.
As I've always understood the term, "vamping" means a rhythmic chordal
background, but especially when the rhythmic pattern is unvarying, and
especially when the pattern is an alternation of bass notes and chords.
I.e., the sort of simple accompaniment often played in the left hand by
piano or accordion players, while they play a tune or do something else
more varied with the right hand.
I think simple strums on a guitar could be considered vamping, if someone
else is playing melody.
/Jim
DavBarnert
>I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but I have
>never been exactly clear just what that means. Since I normally
>play the English, this may be why I don't know what it means.
>However, could you manage to describe in text (since you are too
>far away these days to actually *show* me) just what it means?
Jax:
>It's not a rigorous term, but generally as regards guitar it
>means strumming 'em thick on the one and three downbeat and
>muting them by releasing pressure after a quick strum on the two
>and four. One vamp-a three vamp-a ... since jazz chords tend to
>change on the one and three.
I'm afraid I must disagree with Jax. Vamping means playing a chord
or a simple chord progression over and over, either as an
introduction (i.e., before the melody starts playing) or as an
accompaniment to a melody. Note the expression "vamp until ready"
commonly seen in the pit orchestra score of musical theater and
the title of Peter Barnes book of essays on how to play
contradance piano: "Interview with a Vamper."
Xcott Craver
>
>> up or down by just one tone. That's not a problem with the English.
>
> That's true. There are times when I'd kill for a "transpose" button...
For anglo concertinas, that's the "withdrawal" button at your
local ATM. You have to press it a few dozen times tho, and wait
several years....
My MIDI concertina is still in parts on my top shelf. It's a
used Stagi 40-button, w/ the buttons replaced with SPST push-
buttons and pressure sensors to figure out bellows direction and
volume. I added two rotary switches, one for key and one for
octave. Last time I had it off the shelf, it was working; but I
had programmed the microcontroller not to play, but rather to
output diagnostic data thru the midi port so I could measure the
precision of the sensors etc.
I never set it up to just play, though everything seems to work,
and the program is pretty much written. I should be able to
get it upnrunning if I just had the time.
-X
Paul Kriwaczek
VAMP, v.
2. transf. To make or produce by or as by patching; to adapt, compile,
compose, put together (a book, composition, etc.) out of old materials; to
serve up (something old) as new by addition or alteration.
1632 Song in Lyly Sappho II. iii. 109 To th' Tap-house then lets gang, and
rore, Cal hard, tis rare to vamp a score.
1883 Daily News 8 Dec. 2/8, I meant to suggest that the Central News were
parties to 'vamping' the telegram... What do you mean by 'vamping'?
Inserting matter which is not in any original telegram.
c1890 (title), Reeves' Vamping Tutor.The Art of Extemporaneous Accompaniment
or playing by ear on the Piano.
1905 Church Times 30 June 842/4 Those strange, long, keyless trumpets,
called vamping-horns.
1908 F. BOND Screens & Galleries 147 One of the strangest instruments of the
old choirs is the vamping trumpet.
--
Paul Kriwaczek
email: pa...@kriv.demon.co.uk
website: http://www.kriwaczek.com
"stevesaccordionshop" <sna...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bctec...@eGroups.com...
Jim Lucas
> I've played concertina on the decks of the Clearwater --
> but I must admit that I deliberately brought the Klingenthal
> since I didn't want to subject the Jeffries to brackish spray.
Ah, the memories. I, too, have played concertina -- my Wheatstone
English -- on the Clearwater. It even earned me a ride once:
Hitching up to Poughkeepsie from NYC I literally missed the boat,
arriving about half an hour after she left. It was a still day, though,
and I could still see her a few hundred yards away on the river. But
since I couldn't walk on water, I just sat down on the bank to play a few
tunes before deciding what to do next. After some minutes I heard shouts,
looked up, and saw the yawl boat approaching. Seems the captain had heard
the concertina and sent the mate to fetch me. Even without wind, I
thought it was a beautiful day. :-)
/Jim
DoN. Nichols
stevesaccordionshop <sna...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>--- In squee...@yahoogroups.com, usenet@d... wrote:
>
>> "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>>
>> > I've heard the term "vamping chords" many times, but I
>have
>> > never been exactly clear just what that means.
>>
>
>Vamping means to keep repeating the progression and/or notes within
>the confined repeat measures. The purpose is to maintain repetitious
>background behind an announcement, i.e., the stating of the music
>title going to be performed and various sundries.
I thank you. I see why I would not have heard of it in the
English system concertina, as chords have to be built by hand, and I
suspect that a progression would require moving the same hand into
another and yet another complex position, with little time to do this.
I wonder if this applies to the vamping on anglo concertinas, or
whether that is a different use of the term?
Normally, on the English, runs alternate between hands, but I
suspect that a chord progression would mostly stay on one hand -- at
least until it changes octaves, as all the notes on lines of the staff
are on the left hand, and all the ones on the spaces are on the right
hand.
On the Anglo, at least in the home keys, adjacent trios of
buttons usually make a reasonable chord, though I'm not sure about chord
progressions on the Anglo.
I tend to mostly let chords build by retaining notes from the
melody line until the next addition will make it a dischord.
Thanks,
DoN.
P.S. It will be interesting to see how soon other things appear from
this posting, as the news feed so here, and to Google at least,
seem to be seriously aniemic at the moment -- but a check on
Google shows that last night's articles that I posted in another
newsgroup all made it there. It will be interesting to see
where the discontinuity is.
At least, this should get to the mailing list side, so people
there will know why there are very few articles showing up from
the newsgroup side.
allen watsky
dictates the side I play on to a degree, so chords with a root relationship
of thirds or fifths tend to stay on the same side but chords that move in
major seconds tend to flip back and forth between the sides,(depending on
key center). With the English C. it seems necessary to be able to spell the
chords in your head "very" quickly and be able to simultainously invision
the layout. Its tricky, unless you content your self with root position
major and minor triads and 7th chords.The basic triads are simple on the
instrument, so a 3 chord tune is very "vampable". Vamping is often called
"comping" by jazz muiscians, its short for ac"comp"any. If your theory is
good enough you can use two note "chords" , diads built on the 3rds and 7ths
for Standards for example. Its entirely possible to play very complex
progressions on the EC. The challange is to do it quickly, and to avoid root
position triads which can sound unclear or tremulous due to the overtone
series(a range dependent effect).The thing would be to build "voicings" . I
will need to spend a few more years with the instrument, as the EC is not
very visual when it comes to chording, but its *all* there. I have had the
most difficulty working with tunes that modulate to multi flat keys from C ,
say a tune in C that goes to the IV minor, I find myself in Ab and I just
want to find another instrument , then if things go "nuts" and I find the
need to go say to Db, I am doomed. I have finally resorted to practicing the
chromatic scale, just to drill the layout into my thick skull, the layout
favors keys of no more than 3 sharps or flats . A long process .AW
DoN. Nichols
allen watsky <awa...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
>DoN,When I try to play progressions on English I find that the root motion
>dictates the side I play on to a degree, so chords with a root relationship
>of thirds or fifths tend to stay on the same side but chords that move in
>major seconds tend to flip back and forth between the sides,(depending on
>key center).
Part of what I was fearing would happen.
> With the English C. it seems necessary to be able to spell the
>chords in your head "very" quickly and be able to simultainously invision
>the layout. Its tricky, unless you content your self with root position
>major and minor triads and 7th chords.The basic triads are simple on the
>instrument, so a 3 chord tune is very "vampable". Vamping is often called
>"comping" by jazz muiscians, its short for ac"comp"any. If your theory is
>good enough you can use two note "chords" , diads built on the 3rds and 7ths
>for Standards for example.
Mine is certainly not good enough at this point. I never had
any training in music theory -- I'm mostly self-taught (or self
mis-taught. :-)
> Its entirely possible to play very complex
>progressions on the EC. The challange is to do it quickly, and to avoid root
>position triads which can sound unclear or tremulous due to the overtone
>series(a range dependent effect).The thing would be to build "voicings" . I
>will need to spend a few more years with the instrument, as the EC is not
>very visual when it comes to chording, but its *all* there. I have had the
>most difficulty working with tunes that modulate to multi flat keys from C ,
>say a tune in C that goes to the IV minor, I find myself in Ab and I just
>want to find another instrument , then if things go "nuts" and I find the
>need to go say to Db, I am doomed. I have finally resorted to practicing the
>chromatic scale, just to drill the layout into my thick skull, the layout
>favors keys of no more than 3 sharps or flats . A long process .AW
I think that I will thus stick with mostly melody line, and
accept whatever chords "volunteer" along the way.
Thank you,
DoN.
P.S. This also reassures me that articles are getting out from here
to somewhere other than Google at least.
Thank you for that, too.
Helen P.
handy. Another is that it's just a whole lot of fun with the two
instruments together. :-)
-- Helen
going nuts with a silly PA
"allen watsky" <awa...@nj.rr.com> wrote:
> DoN... I have had the
DavBarnert
>I see why I would not have heard of it in the English system
>concertina, as chords have to be built by hand, and I suspect
>that a progression would require moving the same hand into
>another and yet another complex position, with little time to do
>this.
A melody instrument like the EC can certainly vamp, or be part of
a vamp. Suppose you're singing a song to your own EC
accompaniment, and then between verses you stop singing to tell an
amusing story, but you keep the accompaniment (whether it be
chords or melodic fragments) going while you are talking. You are
vamping. Think "Alice's Restaurant," which except for the brief
periods that are sung is one long vamp.
Suppose you are part of an ensemble that is accompanying a musical
stage act. The character who will sing the next song comes out on
stage and does some "business" before starting his song as the
band is vamping. The concertina's part may be as simple as a
single note (for example, the 3rd of the chord) repeated in a
rhythmic pattern such as [quarter rest - eighth note - eighth note
- quarter rest - quarter note] while everybody else is playing
other notes of the chord in the same rhythm and a bass instrument
is playing the downbeats.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> I thank you. I see why I would not have heard of it in the
> English system concertina, as chords have to be built by hand, and I
> suspect that a progression would require moving the same hand into
> another and yet another complex position, with little time to do this.
Same on Anglo. Complexities may be different since the Anglo's
accidentals were designed for ad-hoc convenience rather than to make
sense on any principled basis... which means the note is more likely to
be in a place where you can reach it easily but less likely to be in a
place where an inexperienced player would expect it.
Same on most instruments, come to think of it. If you're thinking about
chords note-by-note, you haven't practiced them enough; they should be a
single coordinated gesture.
Anglo does have the complication that the chord you want may not be
available in the bellows direction you want. Higher-end instruments with
more accidentals make that less of a problem... but there are times when
Anglo does force you to arrange around its capabilities, shifting the
chord onto a different beat or playing a partial chord. On the other
hand, that sometimes leads to creative and interesting solutions.
Some 30-button Anglo chords follow, collected from Levy and Kirkpatrick.
! is suggested "oom", usually the tonic. These are mostly left-hand
diagrams; the D draw spills over onto the right hand. I don't guarantee
that there aren't typos in this chart; please let me know if you spot
any. And of course there's some instrument-to-instrument variation in
Anglos so other solutions may be needed/available. (For example, on mine
I can play an F press on the left hand by using a thumb button.)
C press ooooo !oooo G press ooooo draw ooo_o
!o___ ooo__ o!ooo !__oo
ooooo ooooo oo___ ooooo
D ooooo/ooooo G7 ooo_o
draw oo!oo/o_ooo draw _o__o
o__oo/ooooo ooooo
D ooo__ A oooo_
ooooo ooooo
o!oo_ !o_o_
Dmin ooooo A o!__o
draw oo___ ooo_o
(rel) ooooo ooooo
E !ooo_ Am o!__o
press ooo_o press ooo_o
ooo_o ooooo
Em !oooo Am ooooo
press ooo__ draw ooooo
ooo_o (rel) !o___
F draw _oooo !oooo Bb o!oo_
ooo__ ooo__ oo__o
ooooo ooo_o ooooo
Example of chord sequence I've been heard to vamp on:
C press, Am press, F press, G7 draw
... that's the bridge of _The_Battle_Beast_And_Barbie_. (Actually, it
tends to be more C C, Am Am, F F, G7... both because that suits the
style and for bellows management reasons.)
Xcott Craver
>
> accidentals were designed for ad-hoc convenience rather than to make
> sense on any principled basis...
Well, there is a pattern to the accidental row. It's like a
Bb row on the pull combined with an A row on the push.
On my previous concertina, I sharpened the low F to an F#,
so I could make nicer chords in D. I think if I ever get a
custom one I'd want that F to be an F#, and then get a low D
somewhere, maybe as a drone.
--X
Willem Jan Koorengevel
"Keith Cunningham" <k...@talus2.f9.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:SgMHa.41959$xd5.1...@stones.force9.net...
>
> The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
>
It is possible to play with up to 4 sharps and up to 3 flats.
In theory is is possible to play in the most exotic scales ( B, F#/Gb,
C#/Db, G#/Ab ) but the co-ordination left/right is completely different.
Willem Jan
Keith Cunningham
--
"Willem Jan Koorengevel" <wj.koor...@hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:bdecs4$kri$2...@news.hccnet.nl...
The first keys I learned on the EC were Ab and Eb! I set about finding D by
pressing various keys until I'd found one which matched what I thought was a
D whistle. Unfortunately it was an old and battered thing which had no
label, and it turned out to be in Eb.
I often think it would be a good idea to replace the pinky supports with
thumb straps so that I could turn the thing upside down for the more awkward
keys. :-)
J Wild
<k...@talus2.f9.co.uk> writes
>
>
>The English concertina will play in any key. The Anglo won't.
I would say that my concertina (English system) can play in any key, and
one day I will catch up with it.
John Wild
Treasurer
International Concertina Association
www.concertina.org
--
Alex Scott-Bayfield
I am a sailor and a beginner English concertina player and so am
extremely interested in learning how to play sea shanties on the
concertina (as well as desperately trying to improve my playing
generally!) I am also shortly to depart on a long sailing trip and was
v impressed by the expertise laid out on this subject previously! I was
wondering if anyone knows if there were any books/manuals/etc which have
sea shanties in them which I could take with me to practice! Any
suggestions would be gratefully received!
-----Original Message-----
From: use...@d-and-d.com [mailto:use...@d-and-d.com]
Sent: 18 June 2003 01:38
Subject: SML: Re: concertinas & shanties
Really-Reply-To: dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
dnic...@d-and-d.com (Donald Nichols)
Really-From: dnic...@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)
In article <bcnumc$1drd$3...@news.cybercity.dk>, Jim Lucas <j...@danbbs.dk>
wrote:
>Steve Holland wrote ...
>> I am interested in Sea Shanties. Could someone suggest
>> a good style concertina for this.
>
>John Townley, Bob Walser, Jurek Rogacki, and many other shanty singers
>play the anglo.
And the cheap German concertina which inspired the Anglo was
more likely to have been to sea than a quality English construction
concertina for several reasons:
1) The English system, and to a lesser extent the English-made
Anglos were well beyond the reach of the average sailor.
(Actually, among the free reed instruments, the most common one
based on research in logbooks by people on the staff at the
Mystic Seaport Museum was the single-row melodion -- not that
different from the anglo, actually, other than shape.)
2) The conditions on shipboard tended to assure that no concertina
was ever used for more than a single trip. (It was falling
apart by the end of the trip.) Sailors would then pick up a new
cheap German concertina for the next trip.
3) The anglo system -- or the melodion -- are much simpler to
convince to produce something resembling accompaniment to a
song in untutored hands. And who among the class of sailors
could afford tutoring?
>Louis Killen, Jeff Warner, Frank Woerner, and myself are among the many
>who sing shanties and also play the English.
Agreed!
>Riggy Rackin has played both anglo and English over the years, though I
>think these days he works mainly with the English. John Roberts also
>plays both, though mostly anglo in recent years.
>
>Bob Webb and one of the members of Stormalong John (the group that
backed
>Stan Hugill on recordings) both play the MacCann duet.
Which was originally an expensive music-hall instrument mostly,
and *very* unlikely to appear in the hands of a sailor -- unless perhaps
it was stolen. :-) But I can testify that in hands like Bob Webb's, it
does a wonderful job.
>Off hand, I can't think of any shanty singers who play Crane duet,
aside
>from myself (I play some Crane and anglo, though not "as well as" the
>English) and my friend Lars Willadsen (we have performed together in
>Denmark and Poland).
>
>Now for the technical quibble: Strictly speaking, "sea shanties" are
>*work* songs, and under working conditions would never be accompanied
by
>an instrument. That would be a waste of a good pair of hands. The
songs
>sailors sang in their leisure time were usually more lyrical, often
>accompanied, and rarely called "shanties" by sailors. "Leaving of
>Liverpool" is an example that most folks know.
Agreed! However -- not all work was done to shanties. Some
Navys did not allow the use of shanties at all -- but they did often
provide a fiddler sitting on the head of the capstan as the sailors were
trundling around it. Pulling up anchor is a *long* process, and it
helped to keep the sailors in step and at the same speed. (Of course,
military ships typically had a lot of spare hands, because they were
needed for fighting, which reduced the need for shanties -- which made
it easier for fewer hands to do a given job, by coordinating the effort.
(I remember a personal example of this, when I was one of a group on a
large gaff-rigged ship which once had been used for laying a
transatlantic cable. There were a group of us attempting to start the
gaff and sail on its way up the mast, and we were having difficulty,
until a friend started a shanty, at which point it seemed to float up
the mast.
Note also that the shantyman *did* have a job -- other than the
singing. He was the one who was holding a slip knot loose around the
line which was being pulled in. When the line was as full in as it
(could be)/(needed to be), it was necessary for almost every body to let
go of it, and the closest hand to belay it to hold it in position. If
not for the slip-knot, the line would have gone sailing back through the
block, abrading the skin from the hands of that one poor individual.
Stan Hugil (one 'l' or two -- I *should* check :-) told of a conflict
between two who wanted to be shantyman aboard one ship, and one greased
the slipknot so the other would appear to not be performing his job
properly.
>Having said that, one could still use the concertina to add harmony
when
>singing a work shanty in a concert situation, and I sometimes do. But
not
>if I have an audience willing to sing along.
>
>It's also fairly well accepted that on shipboard fiddles far
outnumbered
>squeezeboxes, and among the latter melodeons were more numerous than
>concertinas. But the only really important criterion is what feels
right
>and sounds right to you. As far as I know, no sailor was ever
>un-shanghaied because he played the "wrong" instrument -- not even
musical
>saw or Hawaiian nose flute, -- though it's possible that some cellists
and
>even guitarists switched to the fiddle for reasons of portability.
Considering what some of the sailors would use to make music
(look up fu-fu band sometime in Hugil's masterwork), anything which
would produce reliable notes somewhat on pitch were a great benefit.
>Whatever you do, have fun!
That is what matters, after all.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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DoN. Nichols
Alex Scott-Bayfield <ale...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I am a sailor and a beginner English concertina player and so am
>extremely interested in learning how to play sea shanties on the
>concertina (as well as desperately trying to improve my playing
>generally!) I am also shortly to depart on a long sailing trip and was
>v impressed by the expertise laid out on this subject previously! I was
>wondering if anyone knows if there were any books/manuals/etc which have
>sea shanties in them which I could take with me to practice! Any
>suggestions would be gratefully received!
If you want a good collection done by someone who was a real
shantyman on board sailing vessels (and who died just a few years ago),
get _Shanties of the Seven Seas_ by Stan Hugil. It was re-printed
(during his life) by Mystic Seaport, and sold in the Museum store.
Hmm ... you're in the UK by your e-mail address. Stan was
living (and teaching) in Aberdovy Wales at the "Outward Bound" school,
and I would think that his book would be available there as well -- and
perhaps in other Sea museums with tall ships.
Most of the songs present in the book have the written music
with them.
Other than that -- I think that you'll need to depend on those
who live in the UK.
My wife just pointed out that there is a recent Roy Palmer book
on shanties, though she does not remember the precise title. The other
books by him that I have have not too many songs, but they are well
documented and well presented.
Best of luck,
Ivo van der Putten
--
Ivo van der Putten
www.ivanderputten.nl
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> schreef in bericht
news:bgnccj$3tq$1...@fuego.d-and-d.com...
> In article <000001c35a79$221574c0$67c628c3@tosh>,
> Alex Scott-Bayfield <ale...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >I am a sailor and a beginner English concertina player and so am
> >extremely interested in learning how to play sea shanties on the
> >concertina (as well as desperately trying to improve my playing
> >generally!) I am also shortly to depart on a long sailing trip and was
> >v impressed by the expertise laid out on this subject previously! I was
> >wondering if anyone knows if there were any books/manuals/etc which have
> >sea shanties in them which I could take with me to practice! Any
> >suggestions would be gratefully received!
>
> If you want a good collection done by someone who was a real
> shantyman on board sailing vessels (and who died just a few years ago),
> get _Shanties of the Seven Seas_ by Stan Hugil. It was re-printed
> (during his life) by Mystic Seaport, and sold in the Museum store.
>
Indeed an excellent book but very hard to get . .
You may want to look at my website for some text and notations of shanty
songs:
www.ivanderputten.nl >> Shanty >> Zoet- en Zoutwaterliedjes parts 1,2 and 3.
These are pdf files.
--
Ivo van der Putten
www.ivanderputten.nl
Paul & Margaret Hardy
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:bgnccj$3tq$1...@fuego.d-and-d.com...
> If you want a good collection done by someone who was a real
> shantyman on board sailing vessels (and who died just a few years ago),
> get _Shanties of the Seven Seas_ by Stan Hugil. It was re-printed
> (during his life) by Mystic Seaport, and sold in the Museum store.
A search of the Cambridge University library catalogue gives:
*** begin extract
Title: Shanties from the seven seas : shipboard work-songs and songs used
as work-songs from the great days of sail, collected by Stan Hugill.
Edition:2nd (abridged) ed.
Published:London : Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1984.
Description:xvii,428p ; 24cm.
ISBN:0710204124
Subject(s):Sea songs.
Format:Book
Location:South Front, Floor 1 (incl. Corridor)
Classmark:M290.c.95.35
Number of Items:1
Status:Not On Loan
*** end extract
I'm going to the UL tomorrow, so I'll take it out (unless someone gets
there first!).
--
Paul Hardy (at home) pa...@hardy.demon.co.uk
Jim Lucas
> I am a sailor and a beginner English concertina player and so am
> extremely interested in learning how to play sea shanties on the
> concertina (as well as desperately trying to improve my playing
> generally!) I am also shortly to depart on a long sailing trip and was
> v impressed by the expertise laid out on this subject previously! I was
> wondering if anyone knows if there were any books/manuals/etc which have
> sea shanties in them which I could take with me to practice! Any
> suggestions would be gratefully received!
Try searching on Google for things like "sea shanties" and "books", or
"Stan Hugill", etc.
The Stan Hugill book that DoN mentioned seems to be available in the US
from Lark in the Morning and amazon.com, among others, and from Hobgoblin
in the UK. (amazon.co.uk seems only to have access to a single used first
edition, for £120!) But there are a few other good books, too.
Good luck, /Jim Lucas