Keyboard size on piano accordions
Jim Crandall
think I want. I'm a keyboard player and all my experience has been on
full sized keys (piano, organ etc.) For the last ten years my wife and
I have been active in folk dancing, mostly Balkan and Scottish country
dance. Wife is a fiddler and has been attending fiddle camps (Alister
Frazier) the last couple of years. Last year a kindly old gentleman
gave me his accordion after I mentioned that I would like to have a
portable instrument to take to dances, ceilidhs, camps etc. So I got
to work on this instrument, fixed it up and practiced. It has a 19 inch
keyboard (F-A) and weighs about 22 lbs. The wife and I now play with a
group of friends (mostly scottish dance music), she the fiddle and I the
accordion. Two concerns have developed. The accordion seems to have
some annoying harmonics on certain notes when combined with the
fiddles. I assume that the reeds are tuned somewhat "wet" but it
doesn't seem as extreme as the musette, french sound. Also the
instrument is too darned heavy for my aging back. If I get a smaller
instrument, should I get one with less keys so as to not have the
problem enhanced that I already have playing smaller keys than a piano?
Or just a smaller keyboard (maybe 16 inches) to not sacrifice
versatility, and just get over the key size difference by more
practice? If the smaller instrument has just 80 bass I don't think it
will be a problem since I have yet to play a chord lower than Ab or
higher than F# on the Stradella arrangement for any of the music we have
played so far. For the Balkan music that could be a problem but
certainly not for the Scottish.
So now I find myself on E-bay trying to get a clue to what these
accordion things are. I have been to a dozen music stores and
pawnshops around San Diego without much luck. Everybody wants button
accordions the owners tell me. I know nobody can tell me what will
eventually work for me but just some input would be appreciated.
1. Hohner Verdi II, E-F keyboard, 80 bass or 2. "lady sized" full 120
bass, 16 inch keyboard.
How hard is it to train the fingers to play the smaller keys? I still
have trouble sometimes on octave jumps with my 19 inch keyboard since I
still play the piano daily.
Jim
Gary Dahl
...stay away from the accordions you described like the plague!
...stay with full size (width) keys...
GD
Gary Dahl
Puyallup, Washington (near Seattle)
USA
..please visit this site for Books, Sheet Music, Recordings, Harmony &
Chord Applications Course and lessons by correspondence.
http://www.accordions.com/garydahl
(listen to 4 sound files)
..to view 20 arrangements!
http://janpress.freeservers.com
http://users.aol.com/accrdnmn/
(hear Clarinet Polka and click on the eiffel tower for a French Tango)
Gary Dahl
The accordion you are using is probably badly out of tune. I'm sure you
wouldn't play a piano out of tune unless there was nothing else to use.
Anyway, go to Mahler Music at:
www.accordians.com (misspelled on purpose so as not to conflict with
accordions worldwide)
There is a used, mint, 80 bass Excelsior that you can also view! :)
Full width keys, (critical) RH is low G to high G, 3 reed, (LMM) this
will give you plenty of dry switches and musette tuning. (important)
(make sure it is no more than 15 cents if you purchase) Mahler also
tunes accordions so it WILL be in tune. :) The accordion is red, very
attractive for your genre and only 21 lbs., price is extremely
reasonable at $1995.00. Don't spin your wheels at ebay.
Also, contact Steve Navoyosky at:
sna...@aol.com
Good luck and welcome to the dynamic, and sometimes crazy, cranky
accordion world! :)
GD
ps....typing this during super bowl halftime to gladly skip that CRAP
they call music????!!!!!!!!
It should be called yelling, screaming and Zulu style jumping
around!!!!! .....that dog s...t noise is no more advanced than cave man
days!!!! hahaha
Tom Sullivan
<< Anyway, go to Mahler Music at:
www.accordians.com (misspelled on purpose so as not to conflict with
accordions worldwide)>>
Ken Mahler's site is www.accordian.com w/ no "s"
Tom S
Helen P.
including some silly humor. :-)
I started with piano, too, (10 years of classical lessons, and more years
playing), and also had 8 years of singing in choirs & choruses, 1 year of
cello, plus some self-teaching of other instruments. The last four years, I
took up piano accordion, and have played both it and the piano quite
intensively. I've used PAs with 5/8", 11/16", and 3/4" white keys -- and
120 & 80 basses. I both dance and play for Scottish Country, English
Country, contra, waltz, and polka dancing.
__________________
Here are some observations about PA
(geared towards this type of folk music):
Pawn shops are clueless; you know more than they do.
Get a bass with 6 rows (SCD & ECD need those diminished chords); an 80-bass
does *not* have them (5 x 12).
A 34-key keyboard (G-E) covers the range for almost all melodies ("The Teddy
Bear's Picnic" is the only exception I know).
Likewise, a 72-bass (6 x 12) from Ab to C# seems to cover most tunes, though
a 96-bass gives some overlap to make life easier.
Although my long, slender fingers just fit between the black keys on a 5/8"
keyboard, it's hard to do fast trills and other ornaments -- I prefer the
11/16".
After some practice with the three key widths, it's not to hard to adjust;
although I'll usually lay off the piano a bit before a PA gig, so I don't
have to think about how wide an octave is, etc.
Take some time to lay your hand on the keyboard and see what your natural
reach is; that will help you to judge octaves and other intervals.
Piano is percussive; PA has continuous sound; you must try to smooth the
sound on a piano, but make the PA more abrupt -- or you'll get choppy or
sloppy sounds, respectively. Organ is closer to PA in this respect.
The dynamics are in your fingers on the piano, but in the bellows on the PA.
Fiddle bowing technique corresponds closely to bellows technique (I've
learned a lot from fiddle instructors).
Arpeggiated chords on a piano may be replaced by a strong (but not too
abrupt) PA bellows push or pull -- e.g., for the first beat of a strathspey.
For dance music, try to give a separate push or pull to voice every note, if
possible (obviously not for fast reels).
Be patient with yourself: it will take quite a while for PA to feel as
natural to you as piano.
The number of reed sets (both bass and treble), as well as the number of
treble keys make a major impact on weight -- bass reeds are heavy, and say
you have one more key on a 4-reed treble: that's 8 physical reeds more (4
reeds x (push & pull)).
The weight of the bass section may be more important for comfort than the
total instrument weight, since you must repeatedly heft the bass to move the
bellows.
__________________
Personally, I'm hunting for a lightweight 4/4 reed set PA, 34/72 or 37/96,
with 11/16" keys if possible -- and really good sound. For weight
reduction, I'm dropping one bass reed set, and several treble keys, but I
want that rich LMMM treble. I hope that high quality reeds will partially
compensate for the "lost" bass reed set.
Most new PAs of this configuration seem to weigh about 19-20 lbs. 15 lbs.
is my hopeful target weight although, realistically, I'll probably have to
settle for about 17-18 pounds.
Oh, I think fiddle with PA is one of the best combos you could pick,
especially for SCD. That's what we play in my band.
__________________
Here are some web sites you might find useful.
Accordion info:
http://accordion.simplenet.com/wetdry.html
http://www.hmtrad.com/wendy/wendy.html
Places to buy:
http://www.ebay.com/
http://www.accordionlinks.com/manufacturer.cfm
http://chpc06.ch.unito.it/~ravera/accordion/accordion_addresses.html#S
http://accordions.com/pasco/terza.htm
http://www.castiglioneaccordions.com/excelsior.html
http://www.buttonbox.com/
http://www.baldoni.com/piano/piano.htm
Scottish:
http://www.scottishdance.org/
http://www.mindspring.com/~atlbrnch/links.htm
Hope this helps, and have fun!
-- Helen
Jim Crandall wrote in message <3A74B0E0...@worldnet.att.net>...
Gary Dahl
Jim Crandall
Thanks, Gary, Tom and Helen. Those are some great links. I'll have lots of
questions after I digest it all.
Jim
>
>
bme...@my-deja.com
"Helen P." <le...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<<<Get a bass with 6 rows (SCD & ECD need those diminished
chords); an 80-bass does *not* have them (5 x 12).>>>
Errr.............I guess a 60 bass is out too??
Bruce (San Francisco.... prior to coffee)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Mike Maddux
gary...@webtv.net says...
>
>Hello Jim
>The accordion you are using is probably badly out of tune. I'm sure you
>wouldn't play a piano out of tune unless there was nothing else to use.
> Anyway, go to Mahler Music at:
>www.accordians.com (misspelled on purpose so as not to conflict with
>accordions worldwide)
I just visited this site. Actually it's www.accordian.com (no plural). Anyway,
there's an accordion on there with the brand name, "Planet Squeezebox" and it's
selling for $7000. I've never heard of this brand. Has anyone else?
Mike
Tom Sullivan
plural). Anyway,
there's an accordion on there with the brand name, "Planet Squeezebox" and it's
I guess I would call that Ken Mahler's Brand. He has been spending a great deal
of time, effort, money, travel and education the last couple of years in trying
to get the boys in Italy to build an accordion line (button and PA) to his
specs. I believe the $7000 model includes MIDI. Very knowledgable when it comes
to accordions as well as midi and solton use.
I visit his place every couple of weeks... he moves alot of used accordions.
Every time I go in he has another one (or a customers) opened up for work.
A couple a years ago I had him wettin up my Petosa Futura and lower the
keyboard. He did a fine job.
G day
Tom
Helen P.
>
>Thanks, Gary, Tom and Helen. Those are some great links. I'll have lots of
>questions after I digest it all.
<Burp!> ;-)
-- Helen
Dan Lavry
> I just visited this site. Actually it's www.accordian.com (no plural). Anyway,
> there's an accordion on there with the brand name, "Planet Squeezebox" and it's
> selling for $7000. I've never heard of this brand. Has anyone else?
No, but I know some folks that would not like that name :-)
Regards to all
Dan Lavry
Dan Lavry
I would also recomand to go to http://www.accordion.simplenet.com/links.html
That is Hans Palm web. When done with it, he has other links. The first one in
the list is Jeroen N. and it is as complete selection of places to go to,
sorted by subects. Say you want to go to a lot of manufacturers web pages. You
look for manufacturers, then for example you find the list by Mauro Ravera
(compiled a list of addresses of French and Italian accordion makers). You go
in, click on say P, find Pigini Petosa and so on.... You could spend a month
full time going through the webs...
enjoy
Dan Lavry
Karen Bartlett
I am still searching for music for concert band (wind insturments) featuring the
accordion. Has anyone heard of the piece "Accordion to Hoyle"? Apparently it has
a copyright date of 1947 by Carl Fischer Co. It is now out of print and the
company does not have an archive copy.
If you have any other suggestions, please email me.
Thanks.
Karen Bartlett
bart...@telus.net
Helen P.
Helen
Dan Lavry wrote in message <3A760A21...@halcyon.com>...
Mike Maddux
Craig Hollingsworth
Dan Lavry wrote:
> "Helen P." wrote:
>
> > Jim Crandall wrote in message <3A7510EE...@worldnet.att.net>...
> > >
> > >Thanks, Gary, Tom and Helen. Those are some great links. I'll have lots of
> > >questions after I digest it all.
> >
> Linda - Helen
>
Dan Lavry suggested:
>
> I would also recomand to go to http://www.accordion.simplenet.com/links.html
So, I zipped over there and found the following list. Personally, I am fond of
gombos harmonika.
The Accordion is also known as Acordeao, Accordeon, *Accordéon, Accordian,
Acordion, Akkordeon, Armonica,
*Armonica a manticino, Armonika, *Bajan, Bandoneon, Bassetti, *Bayan, Buzika,
Dragharmonika, Dragspel,
Dragspil, *Drängkammarorgel, Fisarmonica, Garmon, Garmonik, Garmoshka, *Gombos
harmonika,
Handharmonika, Hanuri, Handklaver, Harmonika, Harmonikka, *Klavier-Harmonika,
Lindanda, Lootspill,
*Mello-Piano, Organetto, Pedalowka, Realejo, Sanfona, Steirisch, Squeezebox,
*Sun-Fin-Chin, Transichord,
Trekharmonika, Trekkspill, Trekzak, Schwyzerorgeli, Ziehharmonika
>
Dan Lavry
> Dan, Jeroen N.'s site was the second one I listed under "Places to buy:" --
> Helen
>
Yes. I must have gone through it too fast to realize it. You sugested it and I
missed it, so I was obviously being redandent in repeating your good sugestion.
Best Regards
Dan Lavry
Mitch Gordon
have started playing it. As regards playing Scottish music, especially for
Scottish country dancing, Helen P. is a very informative source, plus we've got
a number of Scots on the newsgroup in Scotland, Australia and some other
places.
There doesn't seem to be much of anyone on the newsgroup who's especially
knowledgeable about Balkan accordion. I suggest you give Nada Lewis (in the
Oakland/Berkeley area) a call - she's at 510-243-1122. She's been playing
accordion for various Balkan bands for a number of years. She'll also be
teaching at Lark In The Morning camp this August up in Mendocino, which is
something you might want to attend for other reasons as well.
The weight issue is a touchy one. Generally you reduce weight by sacrificing
treble keys, bass buttons, and reed banks. 22 pounds is heavier than what I
play, but not by a lot. My two 41/120 PA's weigh about 18 or 19 pounds, and the
lightest accordion in our house is a little 34/50 Titano, which weighs about
15. The Titano is a sweetheart, but it's awfully quiet, and I've tried playing
it at a dance once and it got drowned out. (Quiet is good for some things -
accompaning singing is definitely one - but not good for dances).
I like PA's with relatively narrow keys myself; I think it's somewhat a matter
of preference.
Sounds like you need to find an accordion dealer with a reasonable selection of
used PA's, and it also doesn't sound like it's to be found in San Diego. I
would think there's somebody in LA. Ebay can be ok I guess if you are willing
to risk buying something that needs repairs, but I for one want to try an
accordion in person before buying it. How else do you know what you're getting
- what it feels like, what it sounds like, what it looks like, and what
condition it's in?
There may be other approaches you can take to the back strain - using a
backstrap, maybe getting one of those pogo stick stand things like Lou Berryman
plays. Others on the group will have ideas about that. You can certainly shave
a few pounds off by buying a PA with fewer keys, a reasonable set of bass
buttons (like 80 bass or 72), and not going crazy on the number of reeds.
(Although as Helen points out, you can't beat the sound of a 4-voice LMMM on
the treble for Scottish).
Good luck, and stick around.
Mitch Gordon
back still holding out in Guerneville, CA
Tom Sullivan
matter
of preference.>>
I play a full size 3/4 key (like a piano) half the time and a 19 mm ( a smaller
light weight pa) the other. I thought the smaller would bother me. When I first
demoed the 19mm I thought they were 3/4" so it didn't bother me. Only after I
took delivery did I notice the difference in comparison - it bothered me until
I remembered it only affected me when I thought it would. I would be a recent
convert that size doesn't matter.
Also, I think that there is enough difference in hand position and everything
else between a piano and a piano accordion that a experienced piano player can
play a 19mm (smaller) keyboard. So, you may be able to save weight with the
19mm keys.
Smaller box doesn't always mean less sound. The efficiency, quality and, I
would say "timbre" of the particular accordion can also have an effect on
sound levels.
And, weight factor is really fatigue factor. An accordion with efficient
bellows, good straps and smooth action keyboard will probably feel lighter than
a model that weighs less without those qualities...especially if the bass side
isn't loaded up with reeds blocks.
FWIT
Tom Sullivan
Mitch Gordon
it dawned on me where you are - San Diego. 10 miles from the Mexican border,
and full of Latinos. Playing 3-row button box in Conjunto bands! (Ether that,
or you've got huge Slovenian or Irish neighborhoods that nobody told the rest
of us about!!!)
Mitch Gordon
Guerneville, CA
mcclures...@gmail.com
Alan Sharkis
wrote:
>Tell you what! I really think you might look at roland fr1x digital online. Believe me the price is not a little steep, but it turns out a fantastic solution to the weight and size and finding the appropriate sound for your genre, and so many others all in one box. I don,t think many owners would part with theirs. I,ve thought about it but no. My discovery is that I can play from just about any melody chord sheet music by a trick of transposing manually up a 5th so that the existing c becomes g and so forth, by far the most logical substitution, and we thereby make the 26 notes far more useful, if we get used to it, not forgetting the button pressing transpose feature. I,m sure a big enthusiast would bite the bullet and get one! And remember the bellows options for extremely realistic response. I reckon this is it. It's a 26x72 marvel. You should hear the orchestra? sounds, and the double bass!
Hmmm. A lot of players look down their noses at a transpose function
because the idea is to learn to play in all keys, but this suggestion
for expanding a limited keyboard is a good one!
Not that I'm interested in another accordion at this time ...
Alan