Reedless accordions
Hans Palm
Has anybody picked up any new information about reedless accordions?
Has anybody played or heard both the Cavagnolo Odyssee and
the Titano Odyssee?
Are there other models?
What do they cost?
I'm desperately looking for a good and cheap reedless accordion
with bellows dynamics (pressure sensible). Although I love my
'real' Zero-Sette L40 chromatic, I'd like to have a reedless
accordion to use for silent practising.
It doesn't even have to be able to produce sound on its own,
MIDI output is fine.
I've tried playing a Cavagnolo MIDI controller with Stradella
bass buttons and a chromatic keyboard. I didn't like the feel
of it since the keyboard was flat with a feel far from what
you get when playing the accordion. The chromatic keys were
also very small and had a different (tighter) spacing than
what I'm used to. And the swithes was of low quality.
Hans Palm
Sweden
http://accordion.simplenet.com
w...@snip.net
In article <6gtvj5$7...@d-and-d.com>,
Hans Palm <hans...@mailbox.swipnet.se>
wrote:
> I'm desperately looking for a good and cheap reedless accordion
> with bellows dynamics (pressure sensible). Although I love my
> 'real' Zero-Sette L40 chromatic, I'd like to have a reedless
> accordion to use for silent practising.
>
>
> Hans Palm
> Sweden
> http://accordion.simplenet.com
>
> Hello Hans,
>
> I think it is an excellent idea to involve people in pricticing with
> MIDI accordions. It will save many disagreements about noise pollution
> in many households.
> Walter D.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Mario Bruneau
Hi Hans and all,
The Titano is cheaper to buy than the Cavagnolo.
In a reedless system there are two different things involved, namely:
1. the accordion itself, (the box that carries the bellow) = the
CONTROLLER.
The controller is the instrument you play on and it will translate the
movements of your fingers along with the bellow, into MIDI signals or
language. This signal can be transmitted via a cable or via a wireless
transmitter.
2. the soundsource where the accordion (controller) gets its sound from
= the SOUND MODULE or SYNTHESIZER.
Both CAVAGNOLO and TITANO make the accordion controller, but only
Cavagnolo makes the sound module and it is called: the ODYSSEE. Titano
uses its own controller with the Odyssee sound module so BOTH, the
Cavagnolo and the Titano will sound the same since they both use the
Cavagnolo accordion samples. No complaint about that for Cavagnolo is
IMHO the best musette sound in the world.
As far as the bellow is concerned, you will never get the thru feeling
of an accoustic accordion's bellow out of a reedless accordion
controller because the philosophy behind its design is to cheat over the
accoustic counterpart to give some advantages to the reedless system.
The real bellow on accoustic accordion need a lot of air to sound all
the reeds that you play at once so the movement of the bellow is big.
The distance between the closed to completely opened posisition in the
accoustic accordion is very wide and takes a lot of space. If you play
in a confine small place or stage, you will appreciate the minimum of
space needed to operate the reedless bellow. The speed at wich the
bellow open in a reedless is also very slow so that you don't have to go
back an forth so often from the opened to closed position as the
accoustic bellow, and this will save your tennis elbow or your sore
shoulder. See, all the design of the reedless is to suppress the
incomfort or the imperfections of the accoustic accordion (weight,
space, wire attached microphones, limited dynamic range, etc.). Like,
the absence of microphones in the reedless system since there are no
reeds to amplify, you will NEVER get some FEEDBACK out of that! I tried
the Cavagnolo right next to the speakers at a very loud volume level
and, no feedback! So, when you try the reedless, you must keep in mind
those compromises made to further accomodate the musicians. For
instance, I hated the bellow of the Cavagnolo for the first two minutes
of playing but got used to it and after an hour of playing, I understood
all the story behind the design of the reedless system and enjoyed my
experience (now, if I could only get one of those box!). Altough I
would be very comfortable strolling around tables with the Cavagnolo
reedless system equiped with a suround sound system either it be
speakers on each of the 4 corners of the hall I'm playing to, or plugged
in the restaurant's home system where you usually find speakers all
around the premise, I understand that the reedless system can not
fill-in for all the jobs, so don't give me examples for I know them,
like playing accordion on a canoe. :-)
Hans Palm wrote:
> I've tried playing a Cavagnolo MIDI controller with Stradella
> bass buttons and a chromatic keyboard. I didn't like the feel
> of it since the keyboard was flat with a feel far from what
> you get when playing the accordion. The chromatic keys were
> also very small and had a different (tighter) spacing than
> what I'm used to. And the swithes was of low quality.
>
When ordering your reedless controller, I'm quite sure you can ask for
your specifications on the type size of keys and spacing or whatever...
The reedless is mainly just a box carying little electronics so I think
it is possible for the manufacturers to do some minor aestetic
modifications as with any accoustic.
Mario Bruneau
pianist, accordionist, composer, tuner
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
remove NOSPAM to reply via email: pmb...@concentric.net
http://www.concentric.net/~Pmbrut/mbcompos.html
Moray McConnachie
Mario Bruneau wrote in message <35363539...@concentric.net>...
>2. the soundsource where the accordion (controller) gets its sound from
>= the SOUND MODULE or SYNTHESIZER.
How many different types of accordion sound are there onboard these modules?
And is each note sampled separately, or is there the classic MIDI "break" in
the voice at middle C, or wherever?
Mario Bruneau
I think the Odyssee offers 128 different accordion sounds. And I don't think
they've sampled only their accordion sounds. You find bandoneon sounds in the
Odyssee module and Cavagnolo does not make bandoneons I believe.
Since you don't need to make 128 different samples to be able to differenciate
between loud and soft playing because as I said in an earlier post to this
group, the accordion reed sounds the same in harmonic contents either it be
played soft or loud as oposed to the piano that is much brighter when played at
fff levels and inversely, it sounds more mellow or less rich when played soft or
ppp. So because of that I would guess they could afford enough memory to sample
every notes.
Mario Bruneau
Moray McConnachie a écrit:
Chris Kil
I just received a catalog from Master, a company in Italy.
The have new '98 reedless accordions and modules. It has 120 accordions
sounds, 100 music styles, and 237 GM MIDI sounds.
Hans Palm wrote:
>
> Has anybody picked up any new information about reedless accordions?
>
> Has anybody played or heard both the Cavagnolo Odyssee and
> the Titano Odyssee?
>
> Are there other models?
>
> What do they cost?
>
> I'm desperately looking for a good and cheap reedless accordion
> with bellows dynamics (pressure sensible). Although I love my
> 'real' Zero-Sette L40 chromatic, I'd like to have a reedless
> accordion to use for silent practising.
>
> It doesn't even have to be able to produce sound on its own,
> MIDI output is fine.
>
> I've tried playing a Cavagnolo MIDI controller with Stradella
> bass buttons and a chromatic keyboard. I didn't like the feel
> of it since the keyboard was flat with a feel far from what
> you get when playing the accordion. The chromatic keys were
> also very small and had a different (tighter) spacing than
> what I'm used to. And the swithes was of low quality.
>
Robert Berta
>
> And is each note sampled separately, or is there the classic MIDI "break" in
> the voice at middle C, or wherever?
>
There are 128 sounds on the Cavagnolo. While they cover many different types of
accordion sounds like single and multiple reed combinations, many musette
varieties, a really nice bandoneon (sampled off Astor's bandoneon supposedly),
etc., they also have several reed sounds which are not in existance. The sounds
are quite good for sampled sounds.
By the way....while MIDI did indeed sample at C and build the sound map from
that in the past that is pretty much not true anymore. Nearly all good synths
will multi-sample now days.But it is still important (just like on a "real"
instrument) to select the octaves appropriate for the instrument and/or play in
the sweet spot.
The Cavagnolo sounds are in the module that is seperate from the accordion. The
accordion is simply a MIDI controller. When I played it (in piano accordion
version), the bellows dynamics were actually quite good....even though the
bellows moved VERY slowly. But I wasn't able to get a bellows shake out of it
although I got a very fine warble by vibrating my left hand.
While you could use the complete setup you could also use the module with a
standard MIDI accordion. The advantage of the complete setup is the very light
weight. It also comes with a stradella bass and your choice of two freebass
versions for those into freebass. Since there are not other reeds....just
electronic switching the free bass doesn't add any weight.
Another advantage is that you can run the whole thing cordless and stroll
although you do need to have a complete sound system somewhere to hear it.
The advantage of a standard MIDI accordion with the sound module is that you
would have sound, if need be, without any electronics. And of couse you do have
a real accordion....but this isn't a slam at the Cavagnolo....it is quite an
ingenious device.
Note that there is some competition in the reedless accordions coming. Petosa
just showed their prototype which is not just a relabled Cavagnolo. I suspect
that others will soon join in this area since in the end it may allow for a
cheaper source of accordions. To build a pure reedless accordion is far less
labor intensive (read cost) than a real accordion. For now we are still paying
the developmental cost but that will go down.
Bob Berta
Dennis Hoshield
Robert ..
Cavagnolo reedless ..
>
> While you could use the complete setup you could also use the module with a
> standard MIDI accordion. The advantage of the complete setup is the very light
I"ve tried getting prices just for the module ... (it IS shown available
separately in their web pages .. or so it was .. I haven't checked lately)
... but haven't had any luck. They 'didn't know' if they were going to
sell it separately or not, and what the price would be if they did. I
was kind of frustrated .. but maybe they have that nailed down now.
Dennis
in Michigan
Mario Bruneau
Hi Bob,
What is Petosa, do they have a web site, is it an accordion maker, etc.?
Thanks
Mario Bruneau
remove NOSPAM for email
Robert Berta wrote:
<big snip>
JHB NIJHOF
> What is Petosa, do they have a web site, is it an accordion maker, etc.?
Jeroen
Dennis Hoshield
Mario ..
Petosa is an accordion manufacturer in Washington state, I believe. They
appear to make their own reeds also. I became interested in them for
their 'Tuba Bass' (they call Petosa bass, or Petos reed, I believe)
accordion. Intriguing, but pricy. I think their web page is
http://www.petosa.com
good luck!
Dennis
On 20 Apr 1998, Mario Bruneau wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> What is Petosa, do they have a web site, is it an accordion maker, etc.?
smy...@ix.netcom.com
I am interested in aquiring the module of accordion samples. I assume
it can be used with any MIDI controller. Does Cavagnolo have exclusive
ownership of these samples? Someone said the Titano reedless model uses
the same samples. How about Petosa, do they use the same samples?
- Steve Mobia
Hans Palm
Yes, they have reedless accordions as well as different types
of accordion MIDI interfaces and controllers. I've been in
contact with them and they've sent me a catalog too but I
hasn't arrived yet. I've also learned that Cavagolo has
another model than the Odyssee. It's very light.
Master and Cavagnolo have their own pages at
http://www.accordions.com
By the way, does anybody know why the french have only four
rows on their chromatics? I'd prefer five or four.
(Five to be able to transpose easily, three to force
me to play each fingering pattern within three rows,
hopefully developing my playing by ear. I don't have
a three row though....)
Hans Palm
Sweden
http://accordion.simplenet.com
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Dennis Hoshield
Although I'm usually not a 'me-too!!!' poster .....
ME-TOO!!!
It's hard to know who makes what for who .... did I see an earlier post
stating that teh Cavanolo and Titano both use the SAME controller ...
(sorry ... I think I mean synth ...)? Someone (thanks!) just posted
information on the Master controll unit ... with separate synth, etc ...
I think it was at www.accordions.com/master/ (the last '/' IS
significant).
From earlier posts, it sounds like the MIDI accordion (save for a few
machine specific controls, like bellows) ... is a misnomer. The sounds
come from the synth ... wich may often be better suited, depending on
your playing conditions .... SEPARATE from the accordion. Well ... maybe
not if you're a stroller ...
I tried contacting Cavanolo, and didn't get very far on getting
information on their separate synth. It's on their web page, and I have
a flyer with it in it ... but no one knows price or availability, at
least that I've found.
Someone please set me straight if any of this is incorrect.
Good luck!
Dennis in Michigan
Crs smitty
In a message dated 98-04-21 16:19:39 EDT, hans...@mailbox.swipnet.se writes:
<<
By the way, does anybody know why the french have only four
rows on their chromatics? I'd prefer five or four.
(Five to be able to transpose easily, three to force
me to play each fingering pattern within three rows,
hopefully developing my playing by ear. I don't have
a three row though....)
Hans Palm
Sweden
>>
If you remember I asked that question once and got no answer in the newsgroup
so when someone asked in the newsgroup to acquire a four row chromatic and
said "serious reponses only" I couldn't resist and directly e-mailed the
person who was from Canada I believe - He stated the fifth row is no good
because you can't reach it good enough if you keep your thumb to the side of
the keyboard and that is the "recommended" way to play -- "flying hand" style
is not recommended was I think how he put it to me. At the time I had been
wondering if there was a "four-row based" chromatic system because it is
feasible - ie each row could be unique and contain only three notes of the
chromatic scale instead of four as the 3-row based systems all have! - this
includes the 4, 5, and 6 row chromatics that I am familiar with.
I don't see a 4-row system either because it forces two fingerings on you -
just as well learn the third one two - right? I bought a 3-row to force me to
learn everything in 3-rows regardless of keys because on a five row when I
learn a song and the second or third parts change keys I just change position
instead of changing the fingering pattern. It's ok but if you want to
transpose a piece extemporaneously it presents a few problems !!
I saw the 4-row chromatic as possibly a new animal out there but I guess not.
I wish my hand would fly over that keyboard regardless of whether it's
recommended or not but I am not that lucky -- it takes more practice than I've
been putting in lately. :-)
Ron Smith, Montana squeezebox player
jk...@watson.ibm.com
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@freeway.net> said:
>did I see an earlier post
>stating that teh Cavanolo and Titano both use the SAME controller ...
>(sorry ... I think I mean synth ...)?
Yes, you mean synth. The controller is the thing that you actually play,
with keys and buttons and bellows and so on; the synth is what produces
the sound in reponse to signals it gets from the controller.
Yes, I think you saw a post saying that these were using the same synth.
I think the evidence is currently that this synth isn't separately
available except as an OEM (manufacturer) component... which I agree
is a pity if true.
>From earlier posts, it sounds like the MIDI accordion (save for a few
>machine specific controls, like bellows) ... is a misnomer. The sounds
>come from the synth
Whether that's a misnomer or not depends on how strict your definition is.
Personally, I would say that if it plays like an accordion, and sounds
like an accordion, it's a legitimate MIDI accordion; whether the synth
and amplifiers and speakers are in the same box doesn't really signify
for most practical purposes (unless you're planning on walking around
with it -- in which case reeds have a major advantage: no batteries, no
power cord.)
Even if the synth _is_ internal, you'd often want to take the output
and connect it directly into the hall's sound system rather than using
built-in speakers. As others have pointed out, that way there's no risk
of feedback... and the stage monitors may well give you a better sense
of what you really sound like after passing though the system than the
built-in speakers would.
(Of course, you have to allow for my biases here; I'm the one designing
a midi'tina, which at least in prototype stages will almost certainly
have a power/data cable hanging from it and rely on an external synth
to produce the sound.)
Robert Berta
I don't play chromatic accordion but this very question was asked of Peter
Soave at a concert. Peter plays a Pigini (with long plate russian reeds) Bayan
free bass with C system 5 row.
He said that in 4 and 5 row chromatics there are repetitions of the first rows.
As far as C system vs. B system....it depends on the country and the way you
were taught by your teacher. Most Europeans and Russians play with 4 fingers
which can be evidently done on C or B system. But the C system is the one that
allows you to play with 4 fingers AND your thumb. I may be wrong on this but I
recall that many Swedish and Finish players use the C system and play including
their thumb when playing. Can anyone shed any light on this.
He recommends that those converting from piano accordion to chromatic (lots
more doing this these days) go with a C system and utilize their thumb since a
piano accordion player's thumb is very well developed from years of using it.
Evidently that thumb allows for quite a bit more versatility and speed.
Bob Berta
Robert Berta
The Cavagnolo accordion I saw included a piano accordion and a 4 row chromatic.
There was enough space for a fifth row and Jean- Louis Noton said that they can
be ordered with 3-5 rows...just a matter of adding on the extra strip of
buttons. It was in C system and I forgot to ask if it was also available in B
system.
Bob Berta
Robert Berta
Here is what I understand is the correct info on the various issues re: the
suppliers and features of the reedless accordions. Cavagnolo is now being
distributed by Bell America. They have their own "accordion" controller. I
believe the Titano accordion is/was the Cavagnolo...in any case the sound
module in both cases was identical. The Petosa sound module and accordion is
not Cavagnolo. Cavagnolo is still setting up the distribution process. I
believe that Peter Soave will be involved although I am not sure to what extent
at this time. Costs have not been set nor the availability of the sound module
seperate from the accordion. In Europe the sound module was originally sold as
a way to add accordion sounds to a keyboard synthesizer. Jean Louis Noton is
the one that convinced Cavagnolo to build the accordion/controller.
I can't guarantee that all the above info is 100% correct but most of this
comes from talking to Peter Soave and Jean-Louis Noton about 2 months ago. The
sound module has 128 total sounds that are sampled from various types of
accordions and reed combinations. They are quite good. The Cavagnolo will also
control standard MIDI sound modules allowing one to layer electronic accordion
sounds with other electronic "instruments" like strings, horns, etc.
Bob Berta
Dennis Hoshield <dh...@freeway.net> wrote in article
<6hj9jb$3...@d-and-d.com>...
>
> > I am interested in aquiring the module of accordion samples. I assume
> > it can be used with any MIDI controller. Does Cavagnolo have exclusive
> > ownership of these samples? Someone said the Titano reedless model uses
> > the same samples. How about Petosa, do they use the same samples?
> >
> > - Steve Mobia
>
> Although I'm usually not a 'me-too!!!' poster .....
>
> ME-TOO!!!
>
> It's hard to know who makes what for who .... did I see an earlier post
> stating that teh Cavanolo and Titano both use the SAME controller ...
> (sorry ... I think I mean synth ...)? Someone (thanks!) just posted
> information on the Master controll unit ... with separate synth, etc ...
> I think it was at www.accordions.com/master/ (the last '/' IS
> significant).
>
> From earlier posts, it sounds like the MIDI accordion (save for a few
> machine specific controls, like bellows) ... is a misnomer. The sounds