Excelsior 911
Zbyszek
I bought my Excelsior recently and I am trying to determine its age.
Maybe someone here can help ? It is 911, with a serial number 18754.
It has been made in Italy.
After initial pleasure, mainly related to the beautiful sound, it was
time to fix sticky keyboard and now to fix bass machine. My other
accordion is a Weltmeister (model S4, professional grade with double
cassotto). While most of the registers cannot produce as beautiful
sounds as Excelsior, the bass machine works like a swiss watch... I
am wondering if I made a good choice of a model. Perhaps should have
bought 940 or 960... Are these models of better quality and sound than
911 ?
Thank you for your help. Regards. Steven
David Kastrup
Italian is Italian (cough cough). Each instrument is as good as it is,
and you have a good chance to get lucky, and get an instrument that has
been assembled by a good craftsman with the ability to turn his raw
materials into a coherent instrument. When instruments were rather
manufactured ("created with handiwork") rather than produced, it was
part of the work to _make_ everything fit together. I got a report from
somebody who visited a collector of Hohner Morino VM instruments. One
would think it rather pointless to have ten instruments of the same
brand and model, but all of them had a different character when playing,
sometimes even from the same year and with the same reed plate type.
You could not, say, pull out all the reed plates from several
accordions, shake and redistribute them and hope to get a coherent
result. Nowadays, the raw materials fit well enough together that you
could likely do just that without anybody noticing a difference. The
results are controlledly and reproducibly good. Just not good enough.
There is still a difference between making something fit, and having
something made to fit. And the art of making something fit is getting
lost, since just fitting things together is "good enough" with today's
raw materials.
Weltmeister has the problem in several models that they are using a lot
of plastics in the mechanisms, and after half a century, the bass levers
may become brittle. S4 is a rather high end model, it is possible that
they got aluminum in there instead.
Italian models got the reputation of iffy mechanics and noise, often
offset by excellent sound (namely, you feel like you get adequate
compensation for the problems of the instrument). Part of that
repudiation is from a time where there were bazillions of rather small
manufacturers competing, pretty much with the same raw materials. There
are still some small shops like that, but you have to go to
Castelfidardo yourself if you plan to get such an instrument nowadays.
Scandalli has made a few mechanical inventions that are rather
repair-friendly: you can remove the keys individually, and the bass
mechanism as a whole. Don't know how much of those features have been
absorbed into Mengascini (hope I got that one right).
--
David Kastrup
Len Killick
I think by "Italian is Italian" you mean that most italian instruments
are made individually and therefore each one will have its own
character, whereas Weltmeister and Hohner instruments are made in a
"factory" like way where each instrument within one model should be
very much the same (and often have interchangeable parts); of course,
as with humans, even identical twins can have different characters
(:-)).
To the original question I would not expect any mechanical problems
with an Excelsior 911, if it is a case of sticky keys and bass
mechanic problems I would suspect it has been badly/wrongly treated at
some time and has oil or grease put on the mechanics (a typical
error), or it's just dirty; cleaning up the mechanics should fix the
problems, but this is a job for an experienced repairer.
Zbyszek
I appreciate your responses.
As it turned out the bass machine was fixed virtually in minutes.
Back to my question: do higher models (940, 960, Symphony etc) offer
more advanced "professional" mechanics and better sound ? Also, are
they more reliable ?
Ike Milligan
"Zbyszek" <zbysze...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e262579-afa2-43f4...@v17g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
The Weltmeister bass machine was a different design than the reuglar Italian
Stradella machine. Both do the same thing, but the Weltmeister machine has
two-part pistonswhich are desgined to work very fast. In general the
stamped-metal bass machines not designed to take apart easily if at all,
Like Scandalli Weltmeister, and Hohner, work mor rapidly than the calssic
Italian design, with its wood-against-metal friction points. And of course
any bass machine will work less well with wear, but the Scandalli and
Weltmeister seem to hold up better over time.
Ike
Ike Milligan
>>>>
I haven't seen hundreds of Excelsiors, but I will tell you that the bass
machine on the dozen or so that I have worked on are made just about the
same. The thing about Excelsior quality, is that the company want through
several permutations and the quiality got worse. Now slightly above its
nadir since Pigini bought the name.
Just my opinion for what that is worthe!
Ike
ciao_accordion
yes - however, if you couldn't tell that just from
playing it, then the Accordion either has had
the living heck played out of it or it's been
dreadfully abused and neglected. It is quite
difficult to wear out a Professional Excelsior
through normal use, so if it didn't delight you
immediately when you touched it something was wrong.
> Perhaps should have bought 940 or 960...
> Are these models of better
> quality and sound than 911 ?
911, 940, and 960 were the meat and potatoes of the
professional models, with the AC and Symphony
being the Heart
(of the Italy era CEMEX factory and manufacturing)
the 9x models had no expense or effort spared to make them
consistently among the best sounding and playing Accordions
of their time. Over 20 different types of Kilned (on premises)
woods were used in the construction. That is why these accordions
are a bit lighter yet stronger and more stable than most of their
contemporaries. Reeds are the best of the Hand Finished variety,
quick to sound and sweet to the ear. Factory Mic's were Panasonic
the 911 is a straight model, LMMH or LMMM
the 940 has a tone chamber LMMH or LMMM
the 960 is chambered LMMMH
all were available with Factory designed and installed MIDI
with a Bass machine that incorporated actuators to
facilitate the electronic switching components
(compared to the glue-on typical of aftermarket MIDI of
that period) as well as mute shift plates for Treble and Bass
The factory was among the first to break away from Provino
modeled production tuning, and these units were tuned under
a specially designed "hood" similar to that used when Aircraft
dock to unload passengers, which controlled the flow of air, but
still allowed access to the Tuners skiled hand. This tuning area
was built in a separate sealed room off the Factory floor
to control noise and dust... a luxury that precious few of
todays "boutique" accordion (so called) "Factories" have available.
Regulation was done by hand, key for key, as a
normal part of the manufacturing and Voicing process
just outside the tuning area
there were a number of other models that shared the
look (body geometry, grille, and action components) but
had lower quality reeds and materials, with more of an
"assembly line" finished quality overall. These models squeeze
well and sound nice, but take more effort to play
enjoy your Excelsior, and don't be afraid to invest in
necessary repairs to bring it up to snuff... it's worth it
Ciao
Ventura
ciao_accordion
> absorbed into Mengascini (hope I got that one right).
Scandalli was long gone in reality by the 1980's to
the point where none of the old machinery was
even findable except as rusting accumulations
outside the walls of the long dormant Farfisa facility
on the Road from Ancona just below CastleFi
there is no thread of machine, material, craftsmen,
Engineering or Design left from the days before
Lear and BonTempi owned the brand, which is to say
there is no actual connection to anything of
the Legacy of Scandalli beyond the Name
there are no body form templates from which to build
scells of original specifications - there are no Scandalli Reeds
available (except from butchering old accordions)
there are no Paolo Soprani's either
there are only names left, with which there is still, after all
these years (and misuse of those names) such wonder
and reputation lingering that people can still be
fooled into parting with rather enormous amounts of
money in the mistaken belief that they are actually
getting something that in some way way connects them to
the lost wuality of a bygone era.
There are certainly some good and perhaps even great accordions
still being crafted today, but not under the old names,
which can be nice but are merely "look alikes" and exist
primarily to maximize margins
Caveat Emptor
Ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> There are certainly some good and perhaps even great accordions
> still being crafted today, but not under the old names,
> which can be nice but are merely "look alikes" and exist
> primarily to maximize margins
I have a chromatic button accordion which has just "Hohner" and "Morino"
on it. It's 50 years old. Recently, I had the opportunity to check out
the current high end Hohner CBA "Hohner Genius". I was prepared to be
envious and then think of my wallet and be somewhat reconciled.
Instead I was appalled. The keyboard action, while certainly much
quieter, felt cheap and flat, like a foil keyboard. Part of the problem
may have been the flat button tops so that your action was not centered
well on the rather flimsy axis (rounded buttons seem to work better).
The tone did not unfold upon pressure but sounded more like the effect
of a volume pedal, not changing character. There was no tremolo, and
the registers and tones sounded too much alike without "sketching"
quality. I don't think the cassotto had as much contour as the one on
my old Morino, and I don't even _have_ a real "cassotto" (instead, there
is an interesting in-plane construction that tunnels the sound through
circular tone holes and separate pallets situated behind the keyboard
drawer).
Overall volume (but not cutting power), response, keyboard noise: those
were certainly quite ok (though I can play 20 measure pieces on one
breath when using the free bass on my old box, and I don't think that
kind of response is easy to get), and things like mechanical noise quite
better than on my box. But the sound did not catch. And zero tremolo
is, in my opinion, just chickening out. There are things like
"judicious tremolo", particularly three-reed, and you have to tune that
in context with other reed plates since tuning "absolutely" with the
best electronic tuners is wasting the available manual precision: a good
progression of tremolo beating corresponds to very shallow tolerances of
frequency _differences_, and electronic tuners measure absolute
frequency.
So the one thing I learned is that my old box is not replaceable with
the best available breed of instruments nowadays by what feels like a
considerable distance. Sobering.
--
David Kastrup
ciao_accordion
> the best available breed of instruments nowadays by what feels like a
> considerable distance. Sobering.
and it really makes one wonder if the art is lost
now we know that for DECADES there were no accordions built
in Germany by Hohner... their entire production contracted
out to an assortment of Italian companies for the different
lines, models and styles. Your friends Morino collection
no doubt has at least one built by CEMEX/Excelsior
the same as, for DECADES, there was no actual
Scandalli homefactory in Italy, all production being contracted.
now in the case of Hohner, they first looked at China,
then gradually killed the Italian contracts as segments of the
line were shifted, then stockpiled Bare-Bones units from
Italy, killed the rest of the contracts, and began "production"
of a sort back in Germany at the old factory.
Eventually they actually, apparently, regained the ability to
produce accordians again withouth Italian help, but one does
wonder where they got the skills to do so, as clearly they
had given up all the institutional knowledge they had over the
dormant decades. Now their prices are as high as ever on
the top-end models, but it appears they cannot, at their
best effort, come close to the quality yet.
I have read they have the replacment for the Atlantic line
now being produced in Germany, though at the
price-point i'd have to question where they source the
Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
Sobering indeed
to me, when I recall that every bit and scrap of those
Excelsior 911, 940, 960, AC and Symphony
models were built from SCRATCH using raw and Foundry
materials and ON PREMISES - keytops, Buttons, everything
now that was an ART, as well as decades of experience,
custom crafted machinery, nearly a century of
accumulated engineering designs
but I am glad to hear that you have gotten your
Vintage Morino into playing condition - i hope you
are enjoying it - the local used instrument dealer
called me in last Fall to advise him on a Morino
thah had come in on consignment - turned
out to be from the 50's and was'nt bad at all
for it's age with a great rumbly voice - quite an accordion.
ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> I have read they have the replacment for the Atlantic line
> now being produced in Germany, though at the
> price-point i'd have to question where they source the
> Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
> and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
> as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
You mean Chinese, I presume. The new "Atlantic" apparently has a wooden
body instead of the aluminum frame that has been the hallmark of the old
models and part of its acoustic design. The old Atlantics, in
particular the old "Atlantic IV deluxe" models have been known as a
gathering ground for a large variety of mostly rather good reed plates
without much discrimination and consistency in the model series.
Nowadays, you can expect quite more consistent quality. Mostly
consistently worse.
At least in Germany, the old "Atlantic IV deluxe" (no additional series
letters) is more or less the AK47 of the accordion orchestra:
omnipresent except in elite troups because of its general robustness and
ability to deliver.
The price/value relation of the new "Atlantic" is not likely to make a
significant dent.
> but I am glad to hear that you have gotten your
> Vintage Morino into playing condition - i hope you
> are enjoying it -
Constantly fiddling with it, currently I am reglueing a number of bass
valves. Problem is that a number of leathers (shrinkage?) closed the
reed slot just-so, and that causes additional valve action (sort of
flapping) at lower volume sound onset. Mostly doing this one-by-one
since I am still working on acquiring a feeling for the best placement.
Actually, the additional valve action made for a more distinguishable
bass sound at higher volume, so I am not entirely sure it was completely
unintentional, but it is annoying (and not consistent) at lower volumes.
Interestingly, the reeds where this kind of action was _really_
intolerable were the first reeds without weights. Seemingly the
weighted reeds are less bothered about repeatedly pushing the flapping
valve away.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:87zkrkh...@lola.goethe.zz...
cardboard after a while. What you need is of course new reed valves on all
the lower pitched ones. At least that is what I thought you were saying. I
usually replace them with new leather ones and steel boosters, since the old
synthetic ones buzz when closing. You can get new imitation leather ones,
and these are grey color instead of the old yellow. I don't know if they
last longer, but look more flexible than the old.
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> news:87zkrkh...@lola.goethe.zz...
>
>> Actually, the additional valve action made for a more distinguishable
>> bass sound at higher volume, so I am not entirely sure it was
>> completely unintentional, but it is annoying (and not consistent) at
>> lower volumes. Interestingly, the reeds where this kind of action
>> was _really_ intolerable were the first reeds without weights.
>> Seemingly the weighted reeds are less bothered about repeatedly
>> pushing the flapping valve away.
>>
> Well, don't you know that the old synthetic leather valves would turn
> into cardboard after a while. What you need is of course new reed
> valves on all the lower pitched ones.
The current ones are still quite pliable, no idea if they are the
originals.
> At least that is what I thought you were saying. I usually replace
> them with new leather ones and steel boosters, since the old synthetic
> ones buzz when closing. You can get new imitation leather ones, and
> these are grey color instead of the old yellow. I don't know if they
> last longer, but look more flexible than the old.
The old ones still work ok as far as I can tell.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
saying something: The bass leathers and thicker leathers are often
problematic. The main reason might be that it has been hard or impossible to
find good reed leather for at least the last 25 years. The smaller leathers
work fine, but the larger ones don't because the suede side should have been
rubbed by hand for hours, and wasn't. So now the synthetic leathers are
better and more dependable than the real leathers, that is the fake leather
is. Now what they make in fake leather might not turn into cardboard like
the yellows stuff they put in the Hohner Atlantic etc. At least it looks
different. Now it's grey!
The plastic reed valves are also good, since the quality is uniform and they
hold the shape.. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages, unless you are
comparing them to high quality reed leather, which is hard or impossible to
find. Once in a while an old accordion will have good leather in it, that
hasn't gotten too stiff or dirty, if it was better quality to begin with.
I'd really like to know how the old --what looks like pig skin -- leather
was made, like hohner used in the 1930's. Also it would be nice to know how
the kid skin was properly tanned, instead of the quickie junk they sell now.
A problem in producing it, might be that it is hard to get the fresh hides.
You can buy a ton of frozen hides, but I would not trust that stuff, since
the freezing would probably break down the cell structure of the skins.
David Kastrup
> I'd really like to know how the old --what looks like pig skin --
> leather was made, like hohner used in the 1930's. Also it would be
> nice to know how the kid skin was properly tanned, instead of the
> quickie junk they sell now. A problem in producing it, might be that
> it is hard to get the fresh hides. You can buy a ton of frozen hides,
> but I would not trust that stuff, since the freezing would probably
> break down the cell structure of the skins.
One thing I remember one accordion repair technician mention is that the
tanning solution must not "have salt in it" in order for the leather not
to get stiff over time. Now there are not that many solubles that are
not, strictly speaking, chemically some salt, so this probably merely
refers to the usual sodium chloride in the mixture. He mentioned that
while prodding the valves of some cheap Russian instrument.
I should think that similar criteria would apply to the tanning of the
leather in the bellows corners.
You'd probably have to ask a tanner for the available options.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
buffing by hand, etc. I have very sketchy information. Various type of skin
have been used, including kid, calf, and pig. Removing salt from hides might
not be complicated, if some salt were used in the process, as eventually the
salt could be removed by soaking and rinsing.
Ike Milligan
"ciao_accordion" <ciao.ac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c794fb02-f5c3-477d...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Sobering indeed
ciao
Ventura
>>>> Much of the 'lost" art was not "rocket science" as organ-building was
>>>> the basis. It would even be theoretically possible to revive the
>>>> industry, but doing so would be like growing a tree. A community was
>>>> needed in the beginning, and communities are now passe.
Still, it would be extremely useful to have more detailed information about
the exact practices of the various types of masters, e.g., keyboard
builders, materials producers,. reed-makers, etc. just in case someone
needed to make a spare part or even several components, or attempt a whole
instrument as a project.
Today, even the wood screws are no longer made. You can of course get wood
screws, but nothing like the needed variety, sizes, type of metal, etc.,
except from old stock. It fakes a village.
David Kastrup
> "ciao_accordion" <ciao.ac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c794fb02-f5c3-477d...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>> So the one thing I learned is that my old box is not replaceable with
>> the best available breed of instruments nowadays by what feels like a
>> considerable distance. Sobering.
>
> and it really makes one wonder if the art is lost
And "replaceable" is not all that is involved since there are so many
different ways to have accordions sound, so many people own more than
one instrument.
> now we know that for DECADES there were no accordions built
> in Germany by Hohner... their entire production contracted
> out to an assortment of Italian companies for the different
> lines, models and styles. Your friends Morino collection
> no doubt has at least one built by CEMEX/Excelsior
Not sure about that: I think Excelsior came into play starting with
Morino VN, and that collection (not a friend of mine, by the way, just
somebody who sold a Gola to a friend and let him play through the
collection) was, if I remember correctly, just Morino VM all through.
The collector was a sort of an original: he actually did not play the
Morinos himself regularly, playing chromatic button accordion himself
mostly. And he plays _both_ C Griff and B Griff (preferring the latter)
since he acquired at one time one button instrument he was not able to
play (not knowing that there were different kinds) and so just learned
it as well. And he collects all those VMs he doesn't actually play.
> now in the case of Hohner, they first looked at China,
> then gradually killed the Italian contracts as segments of the
> line were shifted, then stockpiled Bare-Bones units from
> Italy, killed the rest of the contracts, and began "production"
> of a sort back in Germany at the old factory.
>
> Eventually they actually, apparently, regained the ability to
> produce accordians again withouth Italian help, but one does
> wonder where they got the skills to do so, as clearly they
> had given up all the institutional knowledge they had over the
> dormant decades. Now their prices are as high as ever on
> the top-end models, but it appears they cannot, at their
> best effort, come close to the quality yet.
It depends on how you measure "quality". The boxes I tried out had
volume, response, light and mostly noiseless action, were reasonably
lightweight. For virtuoso music, they should work rather well.
What they didn't have were distinctive registration ("Nulltremolo" is
just chickening out in my book) and a musical development of tone on
bellows pressure. Particularly noticeable on slow notes, the instrument
did not pass the threshold from "sounding" to "singing".
And since I am not really an impressive player, I need the instrument
helping out with wowing the audience.
> I have read they have the replacment for the Atlantic line
> now being produced in Germany, though at the
> price-point i'd have to question where they source the
> Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
> and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
> as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
Wasn't that Chinese?
Anyway, if you take a look at the catalogue
<URL:http://www.hohner.de/ablage/med_00007759_1291204631_Hohner_Atlantic_ENG_11_2010.pdf>,
you'll find the following remarkable sentence: "For the reissue of the
Atlantic, the Hohner engineers from Trossingen implemented state of the
art techniques and achieved a warmer sound by use of a wooden housing
without jeopardizing the legendary Atlantic sound and volume. Moreover,
the acoustic ingenuity of the bass sound gives soloists an incredible
balanced sound."
So they abandoned the hallmark aluminum frame of the Atlantic (used also
in Imperator and Lucia models) and "achieved a warmer sound" and changed
the bass as well. So basically they maintained the optical design and
the model naming but nothing else. If you want an Atlantic that sounds
even remotely like an Atlantic, vintage is all you got.
> Sobering indeed
>
> to me, when I recall that every bit and scrap of those
> Excelsior 911, 940, 960, AC and Symphony
> models were built from SCRATCH using raw and Foundry
> materials and ON PREMISES - keytops, Buttons, everything
>
> now that was an ART, as well as decades of experience,
> custom crafted machinery, nearly a century of
> accumulated engineering designs
Harmona/Weltmeister still does that. But it does not look like the
state the company has been left in after West German "investors" raided
it for valuables is sustainable in perpetuity: if the machines they
currently work with break down, it would be very hard to reengineer
and/or replace them.
> but I am glad to hear that you have gotten your
> Vintage Morino into playing condition - i hope you
> are enjoying it - the local used instrument dealer
> called me in last Fall to advise him on a Morino
> thah had come in on consignment - turned
> out to be from the 50's and was'nt bad at all
> for it's age with a great rumbly voice - quite an accordion.
[...]
> Still, it would be extremely useful to have more detailed information
> about the exact practices of the various types of masters, e.g.,
> keyboard builders, materials producers,. reed-makers, etc. just in
> case someone needed to make a spare part or even several components,
> or attempt a whole instrument as a project.
Morino was a carpenter by learning. Before he started working at
Hohner, he produced a considerable number of individually made
instruments in Geneva. After his "partner" raided their shop and
disappeared, he was in dire straits. Various recommendations (among
others by Maurice Th�ni for whom my instrument has apparently been
built) landed him a job in Trossingen finally.
So it would appear that Morino himself was not specialized all that
much. However, according to an old Hohner employee, he neither tuned
nor actually played the instruments himself. No idea how he worked this
when still being self-employed.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> "ciao_accordion" <ciao.ac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c794fb02-f5c3-477d...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>> now being produced in Germany, though at the
>> price-point i'd have to question where they source the
>> Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
>> and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
>> as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
>
> Wasn't that Chinese?
>
I always heard that hohner was owned now by Taiwanese. I also heard from Len
Killick that they threw away a lot of old replacement parts. What I need
those old replacement parts is for 2 things.
1.The linkage between the inside and outside of the metal-body era Hohners
wears out and needs to have a new one.
2. The rubber grommets that go on the backs of the aluminum pallets (not the
lifting grommets, which I have) are two different sizes. I managed to get
the smaller ones which I had to ream out, and this weakened them, but they
were reinforce with cyanoacrylate glue and seemed to hold. This stuff comes
in a tube and you cut it to fit.
The new Hohner is aggressively going after business in the US, and I have
found them very easy to deal with lately.
Not perfect, certainly, but better than other Chinese brands, and rapidly
gaining on the Italian garbage sold under the old brand names, while the
Italian stuff continues to get worse. So Hohner going forward, and Italy
going backward in the worng sense. "The future was never what it used to
be."
> Anyway, if you take a look at the catalogue
> <URL:http://www.hohner.de/ablage/med_00007759_1291204631_Hohner_Atlantic_ENG_11_2010.pdf>,
> you'll find the following remarkable sentence: "For the reissue of the
> Atlantic, the Hohner engineers from Trossingen implemented state of the
> art techniques and achieved a warmer sound by use of a wooden housing
> without jeopardizing the legendary Atlantic sound and volume. Moreover,
> the acoustic ingenuity of the bass sound gives soloists an incredible
> balanced sound."
>
> So they abandoned the hallmark aluminum frame of the Atlantic (used also
> in Imperator and Lucia models) and "achieved a warmer sound" and changed
> the bass as well. So basically they maintained the optical design and
> the model naming but nothing else. If you want an Atlantic that sounds
> even remotely like an Atlantic, vintage is all you got.
>
If the above advertising statement is true, then they would have gone even
further back to the old pre-war and 1950's era design. FYI the Atlantic did
not have a aluminum body, but magnesium-aluminum alloy, whcih would deform
if you used too much torque on the bolts. And it suffered from the switch
linkage wearing out, as well as other tendencies too numerous to mention, to
break and get messed up.
>> Sobering indeed
>>
>> Still, it would be extremely useful to have more detailed information
>> about the exact practices of the various types of masters, e.g.,
>> keyboard builders, materials producers,. reed-makers, etc. just in
>> case someone needed to make a spare part or even several components,
>> or attempt a whole instrument as a project.
>
And that last statement was mine not Ventura's though I am sure he will
agree.
Signed,
Fatso McFatass
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> news:87ei7ht...@lola.goethe.zz...
>> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>>> "ciao_accordion" <ciao.ac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:c794fb02-f5c3-477d...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>> I have read they have the replacment for the Atlantic line
>>> now being produced in Germany, though at the
>>> price-point i'd have to question where they source the
>>> Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
>>> and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
>>> as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
>>
>> Wasn't that Chinese?
>>
>
> I always heard that hohner was owned now by Taiwanese.
Taiwanese _are_ Chinese, just not PRC (the latter depending on whom you
ask). I doubt that somebody from Taiwan would be offended if you called
him Chinese. Calling him Korean, in contrast, is not going to get him
enthused.
> I also heard from Len Killick that they threw away a lot of old
> replacement parts.
Sure? They have spare part lists available online.
> The new Hohner is aggressively going after business in the US, and I
> have found them very easy to deal with lately. Not perfect,
> certainly, but better than other Chinese brands, and rapidly gaining
> on the Italian garbage sold under the old brand names, while the
> Italian stuff continues to get worse. So Hohner going forward, and
> Italy going backward in the worng sense. "The future was never what it
> used to be."
Whether or not Hohner is going forward, they have not arrived back yet
where they once were. Of course, the times of cheap manual mass
manufacturing are over. Research and development is about 3% of the
turnover. But when we still had mass handicraft, _every_ worker was
doing potential research and development for his steps in the
manufacturing process, competing with the other workers. Modern
manufacturing processes have no place for incremental improvement and
in-house competition. A good worker with good ideas has no place in
engineering, as the skill sets are totally disjoint.
They may be reinventing themselves, one will see how successful.
What remains a mixed blessing and backfiring is their immensively
successful crusade starting in the 30s (on the coattails of movie
accompanists losing their income) spreading piano accordions as a
keyboard substitute into every corner of the world without accordion
traditions of its own.
Nowadays, with electronic keyboards being ubiquitous, the ridiculous
form factor, and other limitations of the piano accordion have turned it
into a caricature of an instrument.
If you see somebody playing with a 26-key piano accordion, you call it a
toy instrument or a kid instrument. But do the the same with a 35-note
chromatic button accordion, or a 30-button diatonic: no longer a toy,
but a "native" instrument for a number of music styles. Never mind that
it is even smaller.
If somebody plays a chromatic button accordion in a Finnish hardrock
band, nobody is much surprised.
You don't see much acceptance for accordions in "accordion-neutral"
music styles out of the traditional button countries. Jazz, gipsy,
Romanian styles offer something to the piano accordion looking better
than a mere "reservation" like Polka, Shanty, and other partly
modernized folk styles.
So this "it is a portable piano keyboard" heritage is still haunting the
instrument's reputation in my opinion.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>> news:87ei7ht...@lola.goethe.zz...
>>> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> "ciao_accordion" <ciao.ac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:c794fb02-f5c3-477d...@r29g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>>> I have read they have the replacment for the Atlantic line
>>>> now being produced in Germany, though at the
>>>> price-point i'd have to question where they source the
>>>> Bodies, as i really doubt they are making them from scratch,
>>>> and in this price range would suspect the bodies are Korean
>>>> as is, apparently, the actual ownership of the brand.
>>>
>>> Wasn't that Chinese?
>>>
>>
>> I always heard that hohner was owned now by Taiwanese.
>
> Taiwanese _are_ Chinese, just not PRC (the latter depending on whom you
> ask). I doubt that somebody from Taiwan would be offended if you called
> him Chinese. Calling him Korean, in contrast, is not going to get him
> enthused.
>
>> I also heard from Len Killick that they threw away a lot of old
>> replacement parts.
>
> Sure? They have spare part lists available online.
>
for the instruments they no longer make and parts they no longer make, and
LK said they threw a bunch of them away. If I ask for those parts from
Hohner USA I am lucky if they can find a junk Hohner that has the part I
need. So your question "Sure?" is probably not answered by your segue. If
there is a parts list online on the German site, I would like to see the
link posted here. not to be argumentative, but you either saw the parts I
mentioned in this post listed there, or you may not have read my full
comment..
>> The new Hohner is aggressively going after business in the US, and I
>> have found them very easy to deal with lately. Not perfect,
>> certainly, but better than other Chinese brands, and rapidly gaining
>> on the Italian garbage sold under the old brand names, while the
>> Italian stuff continues to get worse. So Hohner going forward, and
>> Italy going backward in the worng sense. "The future was never what it
>> used to be."
>
> Whether or not Hohner is going forward, they have not arrived back yet
> where they once were. Of course, the times of cheap manual mass
> manufacturing are over. Research and development is about 3% of the
> turnover. But when we still had mass handicraft, _every_ worker was
> doing potential research and development for his steps in the
> manufacturing process, competing with the other workers. Modern
> manufacturing processes have no place for incremental improvement and
> in-house competition. A good worker with good ideas has no place in
> engineering, as the skill sets are totally disjoint.
>
This is true, and they will never arrive back there, and neither will anyone
else, except a determined band of artisans in cooperation, which does not
exist at this moment, and probably won't. Especially ince no one seems
interested in perserving or documenting the knowledge necessary.
> They may be reinventing themselves, one will see how successful.
>
> What remains a mixed blessing and backfiring is their immensively
> successful crusade starting in the 30s (on the coattails of movie
> accompanists losing their income) spreading piano accordions as a
> keyboard substitute into every corner of the world without accordion
> traditions of its own.
>
Yes the Chromatic accordion is superor in many ways, and Hohner was partly
to blam for it's lack of a universal following. So now we are where we are.
That is not so important as the fact that old knowledge will be lost that is
applicable to making any kind of accordion or concertina. And just because
knowledge is not lost and exists and is theoretically avialable, does not
mean it can't be lost in an instant. There has to be redundant repositories
of knowledge to help preserve it, and especially to expand it.
> Nowadays, with electronic keyboards being ubiquitous, the ridiculous
> form factor, and other limitations of the piano accordion have turned it
> into a caricature of an instrument.
I don't entirely agree with you characterization, but am impressed by your
rhetoric.
>
> If you see somebody playing with a 26-key piano accordion, you call it a
> toy instrument or a kid instrument. But do the the same with a 35-note
> chromatic button accordion, or a 30-button diatonic: no longer a toy,
> but a "native" instrument for a number of music styles. Never mind that
> it is even smaller.
>
The 25 key 12 bass accordion is a very viable instrument, and some people
use them onstage. Hohner made some of the best ones of that genre.
> If somebody plays a chromatic button accordion in a Finnish hardrock
> band, nobody is much surprised.
>
> You don't see much acceptance for accordions in "accordion-neutral"
> music styles out of the traditional button countries. Jazz, gipsy,
> Romanian styles offer something to the piano accordion looking better
> than a mere "reservation" like Polka, Shanty, and other partly
> modernized folk styles.
>
> So this "it is a portable piano keyboard" heritage is still haunting the
> instrument's reputation in my opinion.
>
>
Right, but I lose no sleep over that, as the problems are more of a
different sort, namely retaining knowledge of making the old parts and
materials.
Ike Milligan
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> news:8739npx...@lola.goethe.zz...
>> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>> I also heard from Len Killick that they threw away a lot of old
>>> replacement parts.
>>
>> Sure? They have spare part lists available online.
>>
> They have spare parts lists I have not seen. However, the parts I need
> are for the instruments they no longer make and parts they no longer
> make, and LK said they threw a bunch of them away. If I ask for those
> parts from Hohner USA I am lucky if they can find a junk Hohner that
> has the part I need. So your question "Sure?" is probably not answered
> by your segue. If there is a parts list online on the German site, I
> would like to see the link posted here. not to be argumentative, but
> you either saw the parts I mentioned in this post listed there, or you
> may not have read my full comment..
<URL:http://hohner.de/ablage/med_00007687_1285846025_Hohner%20Preisliste%20Ersatzteile%202010.pdf>
> I don't entirely agree with you characterization, but am impressed by
> your rhetoric.
*G*
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
"foreign" since I don't natively speak the German language. But at some
point I might try to decipher it.
What I mentioned but might not have made clear, and what I will always
likely need from time to time, would be the linkage going from the switch
mechanisms to the insides of accordions made about the time of the "heyday"
of the alloy-body Atlantic series. It is a mechanical copy in principle, of
the linkage on Italian accordions, but has a plastic body rather than metal.
It is oval in shape and has levers that attach to the slides of the treble
switch mechanism, and it is bolted in tow places and the inside is hollow
and the levers have a cylindrical part that goes inside the accordion
bellows area and a lever on the other end connects to the slides mounted in
the fondo that move to let air to the various reed sets. Because they
"improved" on the Italian design by making the housing of plastic instead of
metal (no doubt to save money) it is found that after using the switch
regularly, the metal either wears out the plastic housing, making it
impossible to have the slides in the fondo open and close completely, or if
oil gets inside it, it will get very stiff, and when you try to take it
apart to clean it, it is difficult or impossible to do without damaging the
plastic housing. This is the sort of parts I assume they threw away, since
they don't seem to fit the newer models, unless I'm wrong. Whenever a design
changes, my impression is that the Hohner people don't feel a need to retain
any spare parts for older models, unless these parts happen to fit newer
models as well. That would be less bad if the parts in question ere not
prone to wear out much more often than the main parts of the instruments.
Len Killick
wrote:
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>
> news:878vxgw...@lola.goethe.zz...
>
>
>
> > "Ike Milligan" <accordion...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> >>news:8739npx...@lola.goethe.zz...
> >>>> I also heard from Len Killick that they threw away a lot of old
> >>>> replacement parts.
>
> >>> Sure? They have spare part lists available online.
>
> >> They have spare parts lists I have not seen. However, the parts I need
> >> are for the instruments they no longer make and parts they no longer
> >> make, and LK said they threw a bunch of them away. If I ask for those
> >> parts from Hohner USA I am lucky if they can find a junk Hohner that
> >> has the part I need. So your question "Sure?" is probably not answered
> >> by your segue. If there is a parts list online on the German site, I
> >> would like to see the link posted here. not to be argumentative, but
> >> you either saw the parts I mentioned in this post listed there, or you
> >> may not have read my full comment..
>
Yes, Ike, parts like those register mechanics were exactly the sort pf
part that I was talking about before. They used to be made in small
batches as spare parts years after the accordion was last produced,
then one day there was the instruction to clear out anything older
than ... years (about 30 years I think), and that clear out included
the templates and samples. So next time the stock of spares ran out,
they could not make any more and that was the end of it. The standard
parts catalogue which David linked to only has non-model-specfic
parts, and model-specific parts for newer models, plus a few old parts
which are still around, but most of the old parts catalogue has been
deleted.
Ike Milligan
"Len Killick" <l...@killick.de> wrote in message
news:9cc13398-555c-4d31...@v16g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>>> So now, If I wanted to, I could have the parts made by a machinist,
>>> all-metal, and it would cost me quite a pretty penny. Because the bodies
>>> were plastic, with a rataing metal part in the body, they linkages from
>>> the switches to the inside are doomed to wear out. Then the accordion is
>>> good for spare reeds. The reeds were decent.