bellows material info
Steve from Jersey
searched this site and the net for as much info I could find. I see
reference to 'technical cardboard', but haven't found any details
about what it is, if there are varying grades, etc. anywhere on the
net. I don't want to waste the time of the two or three supply houses
I've found with tons of questions when they would rather take an order
from someone who knows what they are ordering. Can anyone steer me to
a site or two that explains the details of technical cardboard, or
maybe someone can post the info? - Steve
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi, Steve from Jersey!
>maybe someone can post the info? – Steve
OK,
You can find some Information on my web site abut making a bellow.
And If You have some questions I can answer.
For the Material it is important to use some kind of carton that is not
made from recicle paper. 0.8 mm strong carton. Each carton is not suited
for that. I folded the first bellows myself. The used carton should not
very dry. Best store the carton for a week inside a damp cellar.
So it starts on the website:
http://elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at/~jp/en/h/The_building_of_a_diatonic_Harmonika.htm
If you want to get the ready folded carton, but not cut in length,
Get it from Italy.
DENA DI CARINI SNC
COSTRUZIONI MECCANICHE ELETTROMECCANICHE
ELETTRONICHE ED ACCESSORI PER STRUMENTI MUSICALI
P.LE MICHELANGELO 30/31/32
60022 Castelfidardo
Tel.: 071 710961
Johann
Steve from Jersey
Lots of usefull information. I'm still a little vexed about the
cardboard though. I know the type used is also used for visors, hats,
all kinds of stuff, but is there a name for this type of cardboard?
For instance, if you want paper, you've got parchment, index stock,
bond, etc. Searching out cardboard, I've come across bristol board,
and a couple other names - none of which, I'm sure, is useful for
accordion bellows. Any thoughts? Maybe an art supply house has this
stuff, but I don't know what to ask for. - Steve
Ike Milligan
bookbinding trade. You should measure the thickness. How to build an
Accordion" from my website has detailed bellows making instructions. I
charge $20 for this reprint of the whole manuscript. go to
www.1accordion.net/books.htm
"Steve from Jersey" <scmi...@interpow.net> wrote in message
news:c56d2972.03052...@posting.google.com...
Ike Milligan
fold available.
"Johann Pascher" <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote in message
news:3ECE68D9...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at...
>
>
> Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
> Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
>
> Hi, Steve from Jersey!
>
> >I want to make my own bellows for a 10 button accordion, so I've
> >searched this site and the net for as much info I could find. I see
> >reference to 'technical cardboard', but haven't found any details
> >about what it is, if there are varying grades, etc. anywhere on the
> >net. I don't want to waste the time of the two or three supply houses
> >I've found with tons of questions when they would rather take an order
> >from someone who knows what they are ordering. Can anyone steer me to
> >a site or two that explains the details of technical cardboard, or
W.D.
You have to get thickness of stock according to measurements used in
graphic arts industry. They use inches, centimeters but the most
important scale is the point system.
You can measure it in metic system for thickness also according to the
weight in pounds. All of these is very confusing and I forgot most of
it till now.
If you would get a bristol, you would have to get more than 10 points,
something like 20 - 24 points in thickness. There is a special gauge
to measute that but micrometer could be used too. When substituting
point system to micrometer measurements the stock that you need would
have to be 0.022 - 0.028 or about twice thicker than a regular coated
cardboad stock used in packaging or twice the thickness of a business
card made of 10 point cardboard. It would be about 6 times of
thickness of 20 lbs. bond paper used in typewriters or 6 pieces of 20
lbs. bond sheets put together.
You can buy bigger sizes for bellows in Paper Supply Companies in
Trenton, NJ or Philadelphia, PA. The problem is that they want you to
buy a bundle that might be 500 sheets and cost to $600 or more.
Smaller paper distributore sell similar paper in smaller sizes to 36"
that is no good for bellows. You need at least 48" to 52" in lenghts.
The cheapest way is to go to Industrial Park where big printing
company is located and talk to the finishing or cutting room foreman.
Take sample of old bellows with you.
They might be willing to give you for free few big sheets of
cheapboard to try your hobby. Then if you like it what you doing - buy
a whole bundle.
The best stock you could get would be a cardbord made of hemp or linen
stock.
The cardbard made out of hemp fibers is imposssible to get now.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi, W. D.
I have read our info on cardboard, Good info You supply!
“regular coated cardboad stock”
Do you think coated cardboard is good for bellows?
I always used uncoated.
The Folds I have had from Italy are also uncoated.
And if I talk about making bellows, the reed factory in Loony makes also
every size of bellow one wont’s.
At Weltmeister the tolled me that the raw material is rally a problem
today!
Only special quality must be used, and the see the quality only after
the have made a quantity of bellows.
And the also have to bay much more at one time as the would need for
there production of bellows for one year.
The carton is especially made for this propose, and the have no
numbering system for the type of carton.
And I think the other small factories and perhaps also Harmonikas in
Loony depend on this supplies.
On the other hand, I did bay a few sheets of carton some years ago just
in the next town, in an paper store with 1 mm thickness and brown
natural colour. And It worked very well.
Important is that if one bends the carton very sharp it should not
crack. And the carton should be quite stiff. Not like a usual shoebox
carton.
And after folding and moving the folds for a long time, the carton
should not keep springy.
But it is easier to bay the already folded carton.
It is not very easy to get the fold very equal.
And to bay a custom bellow, is also too thick about.
There are factories in Italy, I do not have the address but I know there
are some web pages, perhaps someone else knows the address.
In the Czech Rebubic, Harmonicas (Manager: Hr. Dittelbach, speaks
German)
makes custom bellows.
The Schaumanufakur in Klingenthal also makes bellows for customers.
(Manager Mr. Schuerer)
And Mr. Schneeberg in Klingenthal also makes every custom bellow if one
writes a mail.
UDO SCHNEEBERG
Klingenthaler Straße 22
D- 08267 Zwota
Tel +49 (0) 37467 / 259 70
Fax +49 (0) 37467 / 284 03
in...@schneeberg-harmonika.de
http://www.schneeberg-harmonika.de/
Stimmplattenerzeugung und Akkordeonerzeugung:
BGK Beschäftigungsgesellschaft Klingenthal mbH
Schaumanufaktur für Akkordeonbau
Falkensteiner Str. 31, 08248 Klingenthal
e-mail: schauma...@musikzentrum.de
Tel.: 037467/22407 od. 23497, Fax: 037467/22407 od. 24542
Öffnungszeiten: 9.30,11.00,12.30. und 14.00Uhr
Montag bis Donnerstag Führungen: oder lt. Vereinbarung
http://www.akkordeon-schau-manufaktur.de/default.htm
http://www.akkordeon-schau-manufaktur.de/stimmpl.htm
http://www.akkordeon-schau-manufaktur.de/firma.htm
HARMONIKAS s.o.r
Podebradova 2506
44001 Louny Tschechische Rebublik
Tel.: 0042 0395653508
Fax: 0042 0395652453
Geschäftsführer: Herr Dittelbach
e-mail: harmo...@lounsko.cz
http://www.harmonikas.cz
Johann
John`s_ NEWS
to you and if you are interested please email me privately.
I am also a dealer for Delicia, Hlavacek accordions and they also make a
new bellows.
I`m quite sure that a new bellows can be ordered to your specifications.
Please go to my site for more information.
John
http://www.johnsaccordionservice.com/
W.D.
> Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
> Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
>
> Hi, W. D.
>
> I have read our info on cardboard, Good info You supply!
>
>
> Do you think coated cardboard is good for bellows?
>
> I always used uncoated.
> The Folds I have had from Italy are also uncoated.
I don't know. The cardboard that was available for me was 28 point
uncoated cheap board and made from lowest quality fibers. The coated
cardboard was almost right and was 24 point and much stronger and I
got it for free.
I only know that uncoated cardboard stock that drinks water on the
contact is of very poor quality.
I would prefer thickness about 22 point made of linen fiber. It would
be much better to get one made of hemp fiber. The properly thick
bristol stock would be good choice too.
The main object in initial bellows production by self is to make folds
along long run (grain) of the fibers so the bellows would not break up
easily in fold.
Thanks for giving information about other places in Europe where to
order custom made bellows. It is always better to use expertise of the
people who do these things day in and day out. In my opinion making
nice looking and perfectly working bellows is the most difficult
activity taken up by hobbyists. Adding to that metal corners, fabrick
and taping, and it seems that the job never ends.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Johann Pascher
Hi, W. D.!
My question:
>> I have read our info on cardboard, Good info You supply!
>> regular coated cardboad stock?
>>
>> Do you think coated cardboard is good for bellows?
>>
>> I always used uncoated.
>> The Folds I have had from Italy are also uncoated.
Your answer:
>I don't know. The cardboard that was available for me was 28 point
>uncoated cheap board and made from lowest quality fibers. The coated
>cardboard was almost right and was 24 point and much stronger and I
>got it for free.
>I only know that uncoated cardboard stock that drinks water on the
>contact is of very poor quality.
>I would prefer thickness about 22 point made of linen fiber.
>It would be much better to get one made of hemp fiber.
>The properly thick >bristol stock would be good choice too.
>The main object in initial bellows production by self is to make folds
>along long run (grain) of the fibers so the bellows would not break up
>easily in fold.
>Thanks for giving information about other places in Europe where to
>order custom made bellows.
>It is always better to use expertise of the
>people who do these things day in and day out.
>In my opinion making nice looking and perfectly working bellows
>is the most difficult activity taken up by hobbyists.
>Adding to that metal corners, fabrick
>and taping, and it seems that the job never ends.
>Enjoy it,
>W.D.
Thanks for all your info!
I add perhaps that the carton should not age.
And for this it is important that the carton is not made out of old recycle paper. Nothing should be added to the row material.
This kind of carton is used for passe-partout.
And is named:
museum conservation quality
Acid-free special carton.
There is a info page in German language:
http://www.scheitlin-papier.ch/Sortiment/Alterungsbest_Fachbegr.htm
OK, hope you agree!
Johann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
W.D.
> Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
>
>
> And is named:
>
> museum conservation quality
>
> Acid-free special carton.
>
> There is a info page in German language:
>
> http://www.scheitlin-papier.ch/Sortiment/Alterungsbest_Fachbegr.h
> Johann
>
parchment" in English. I know that the real parchment is the most
durable leather/paper based product there is. The real parchment is
used for repairs of old priceless books.
The parchment is made out of processed leather fibers sometimes mixed
with linen or hemp fibers. Addition of linen fibers gives more white
color to it and hemp fibers give more brownish color. Bellows made
out of that quality parchment would cost 3 times more than those made
of regular common fibers and would be very, very durable. I have seen
some old made bellows made of that product.
There is also immitation parchment stock that is somehow better than
regular card stock and that one is availabe in Paper Supply Houses
when purchased in bundles.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Steve from Jersey
things to mull over - and experiment with. It does bring up something
I'm curious about. Virtually every old accordion (turn of the century)
has a double and sometimes triple bellow (wood frame in the middle of
two short bellows to make one long one. Is it safe to assume this was
done because card stock long enough for one full bellow didn't exist?
Is there a disadvantage to a double bellow ie playability, or was it
just easier to produce one piece bellows when the material became
available? - Steve
Theodore Kloba
sometimes on melodeons. I thought it was just to give extra rigidity to
the bellows since they tend to get extended further on these instruments
than they would on a PA, for example.
--
Theodore M. Kloba * hey...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/heytud/
http://www.mp3.com/boxman/
W.D.
The paper stock existed in big rolls long time ago. I know that around
1880 one plant in Philadelphia used rolls of paper to print rail
tickets.
In my opnion for these type of accordions you can get better air
pressure and do not risk so called "bulging" and damaging of bellows
when using double or tripple frames. It is also easier to make it by
using manual folding in small lots to keep folds straight and even.
As far as folding of cardboard, there are three ways of doing that:
1. Manual folding by using hand tool.
2. Mechanical folding by using a rotary continuous roll feeding press.
3. Mechanical punch creasing and pre-folding cardboard sheets on the
platen press.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Johann Pascher
Hi, W. D.
You write:
>The paper stock existed in big rolls long time ago. I know that around
>1880 one plant in Philadelphia used rolls of paper to print rail
>tickets.
This my be true for USA,
But we in Austria and I think also in Germany, had for a long time old
Factories that did produce only sheet material.
I reed Your comments with great interest!
Keep on explaining, thanks!
Johann Pascher
Hi, W. D.
>> This kind of carton is used for passe-partout.
>> And is named:
>>
>> museum conservation quality
>>
>> Acid-free special carton.
>>
>> There is a info page in German language:
>>
>> http://www.scheitlin-papier.ch/Sortiment/Alterungsbest_Fachbegr.h
>> OK, hope you agree!
>> Johann
>
>I think that you have in mind the paper which is called "the
>parchment" in English. I know that the real parchment is the most
>durable leather/paper based product there is. The real parchment is
>used for repairs of old priceless books.
>The parchment is made out of processed leather fibers sometimes mixed
>with linen or hemp fibers. Addition of linen fibers gives more white
>color to it and hemp fibers give more brownish color. Bellows made
>out of that quality parchment would cost 3 times more than those made
>of regular common fibers and would be very, very durable. I have seen
>some old made bellows made of that product.
>There is also immitation parchment stock that is somehow better than
>regular card stock and that one is availabe in Paper Supply Houses
>when purchased in bundles.
>W.D.
I did not think on this type of paper, but it my be that it was used on some Instruments as you have seen.
I had only in mind that to days paper is usually is not
Acid-free.
And if it is stated that it is Acid-free it duos not mean that the whole
Carton is acid-free. Only the coated layer is acid-free.
And also if it is stated the Acid my only be naturalised through added material.
If we stay with carton that is brown and not made out of old paper
We are a little bit saver in this respect.
And "museum conservation quality" is carton that must be Acid-free.
Because the acid destroys also other parts that are in contact with the carton. It tacks along time until we see changes in the carton.
But we all know that old books change to brown colour and finally the pages
crack easy. If this happens to the bellow the folds crack if the bellow get old.
So I did want to point out that not only the quality what is seen by bending and manipulating at moment is from Importance.
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
[ ... ]
>And if it is stated that it is Acid-free it duos not mean that the whole
>
>Carton is acid-free. Only the coated layer is acid-free.
>
>And also if it is stated the Acid my only be naturalised through added material.
>
>If we stay with carton that is brown and not made out of old paper
Johann,
One thing which I think that I should point out, after seeing
you use the word "carton" the same way many times, apparently to refer
to the *material*.
At least in the US, the word "carton" applies only to boxes made
from some form of cardboard, not to the material itself. The material
is usually just called "cardboard", though there are special terms for
special forms, such as "posterboard" for flat thick versions used for
semi-freestanding displays.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi, DoN!
Thanks for the correction You are right.
It is a mistake on my side I remember now again
I got mixed up with German Language.
Cardboard is the correct expression not Carton “Karton” as it is called
in German.
Johann
Bjcomm9615
Paolo Sopranis. Anyone have any comments
on Glassini or Marconi bellows? Is one better
than the other. I just wanna make sure there
good bellows, easily broken in,quality buid etc... Any info is appreciated
Brian
John`s_ NEWS
John
http://www.johnsaccordionservice.com/
"Bjcomm9615" <bjcom...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20030531003616...@mb-m14.news.cs.com...
FDef...@aol.com
We have many different size accordion bellows in stock in the US, available
for immediate delivery at $95 each plus s/h.
Tell us what size you need, how many folds, etc.
ERNEST DEFFNER, INC. You've heard our music since 1934
divisions: Pancordion, Inc. * Titano Accordion Co. * Pigini Accordions
P.O.Box 608 Mineola, NY 11501 Tel 516/746-3100 Fax 516/746-7085
==================================================================
In a message dated 5/31/03 3:35:13 AM, squee...@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Date: 31 May 2003 04:36:16 GMT
> From: use...@d-and-d.com
>Subject: Bellows
>
>Really-Reply-To: bjcom...@cs.com (Bjcomm9615)
>Really-From: bjcom...@cs.com (Bjcomm9615)
Bjcomm9615
industry. Car makers, computer,etc...I've seen bellows that are junk so I know
they're outt here?
Brian