Degrees of wetness
Mike Schway
I'm curious about the terminology for various amount of wetness (in
tuning, that is). I've heard terms such as dry (self-explanatory), swing,
demi-swing and musette.
I assume dry means dry <g> and musette is fairly wet, but where does swing
and demi-swing fall? Also, is there a standard value in cents or Hz which
defines these terms?
For extra credit: How did the word "swing", as applied to tuning, arrise?
TIA
--Mike Schway
msc...@nas.com
Hans Palm
>Tuning gurus:
>
>I'm curious about the terminology for various amount of wetness (in
>tuning, that is). I've heard terms such as dry (self-explanatory), swing,
>demi-swing and musette.
>
>I assume dry means dry <g> and musette is fairly wet, but where does swing
>and demi-swing fall? Also, is there a standard value in cents or Hz which
>defines these terms?
Check out http://accordion.simplenet.com/wetdry.html
Hans Palm
Sweden
http://accordion.simplenet.com
Mike Schway
<hans...@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote:
>Check out http://accordion.simplenet.com/wetdry.html
>
>Hans Palm
>Sweden
>http://accordion.simplenet.com
Thanks, Hans. Nice site. I've bookmarked it.
I read Richard Morse's article and I have a hard time believing a Cajun
accordion would be wetter than a French Canadian and that an Irish box
would be wetter than either of them.
Maybe I'm confusing cents with his 1-to-10 wetness scale, but I was under
the impression that the trend is to tune modern Irish accordions fairly
dry, Cajun very dry and Quebec wet, but not as wet as contra/Scottish
country dance.
I'm still a bit curious about "swing" and "demi-swing".
Thanks again,
--Mike Schway
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Schway | [Picture your favorite quote here]
msc...@nas.com |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Mike Schway <msc...@nas.com> wrote:
>
>I read Richard Morse's article and I have a hard time believing a Cajun
>accordion would be wetter than a French Canadian and that an Irish box
>would be wetter than either of them.
I'm also confused by his article. Many of the newer irish button
boxes are nearly as dry as cajun. Certainly dryer than the Hohner
I use for english (which is slightly drier than the Quebecois players
I've heard use). At least with the boxes I've heard,
Cajun > irish > Hohner button boxes > Quebecois and Cape Breton > Scottish
and old irish piano boxes.
With the piano boxes being _way_ wetter than any of the button boxes.
We also noticed that the players from ireland tended to use big, ugly
Hohner and Paolo Soprani boxes with the factory tuning. The americans
with big record contracts tended to play Castignari, Salterelle, Buobe (?)
and (argh, can't remember the new irish company) tuned almost but not
completely dry. Somewhat similar to what I've seen with english players.
English players tend towards Castignari, Salterelle, and Dino Baffetti
boxes tuned roughly as wet as a Hohner pokerwork box (ie, not very).
But most of 'em still play pokerwork boxes held together with duct tape. ;}
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert KD6WUR l...@crl.com
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"There are some people who will argue whether the flames are blue
or green, when the real question is that their arse is on fire."
chris moran
"DEGREES OF WETNESS" Sounds like a bad porn-flick.
Here's some more ideas and quasi-facts to muddy the water...
Most new custom Irish boxes (like Cairdin?) are at default, DRY, almost
concertina sound. If you're lucky enough to have handmade reeds this might
be tolerable, if not, it sounds like a DEAD concertina.
Sharon Shannon's Lilly is a single reed instrument, so it is completely
concertina DRY. What keeps the sound lively and interesting is the high
quality handmade reeds.
Paddy O'Brien from Offaly (aka Paddy O'Brien the Living) tuned his box
almost completely concertina DRY on his Green Linnet CD "Stranger at the
Gate." You will notice a lot of studio "sweetening" or echo-chamber to
compensate.
On Marc Savoy's "Acadian" Cajun boxes, the tuning is completely DRY except
for the thirds and sevenths (?) which are tuned 3 cents apart. Quebecios
boxes are tuned evenly with a lot of tremelo (I have no "cents" marker here,
nor do I know if more than one reed is tuned "off" ala MUSETTE tuning.)
Sharon Shannon's other box is a Tommy which is tuned CASTEGNARI DRY in which
the two clarinet reeds are tuned several cents apart, thereby not true DRY.
In just about everybody else's language this tuning is called "DEMI-SWING".
This is a nice, chunky, "boxey" sound which is still "dry" but definitely
lets you know that you've got two reeds working. My soon to be
former-Saltarelle Irish Bouebe was tuned this way at Billy McComiskey's
urging and it was very good advice!
Billy's first Saltarelle Nuage was a three reed with all the reeds tuned
clarinet or middle register ala the old Paolo Soprani three-reeds. Billy
tuned his Nuage: DRY/DRY/DEMI-SWING. This gave him a couple of interesting
tonal options. (At sessions, when he is feeling completely beiligerent,
which is often, Billy will turn off the demi-swing reed and seamlessly blend
in with the rest of the musicians, thus foiling an avid fan's attempt at
recording him.)
Still using Billy's sound as benchmark, if you go to his first recordings
with the Irish Tradition, you will find him using an old two-reed Hohner
Black Dot B/C that he had re-tuned drier than the original factory tuning,
but certainly not completely dry. His working of the Tulla Reel from this
period is available on the Green Linnet "BIG SQUEEZE" celtic accordion
anthology which has just been reissued as a budget CD. If you listen to this
little masterpiece, you will hear a box tuned to what many consider to be
SWING tuning which is the first grade of true tremolo. It is very light.
Jackie Daly's earlier recordings are an example of SWING tuning on a
three-reed gray Paolo Soprani which was originally tuned MUSETTE. Tony
McMahon's first recordings were similar in tuning. Daly may have been the
first Irish player to use the DEMI-SWING tuning ("Eavesdropper", any
DeDannan record, early Patrick Street). Jackie's most recent solo recordings
are very DRY.
Then, in two-reed instruments, there is the Hohner tuning (which I still
like a lot) and it is a pretty radical tremolo depending what era the
instrument was made in. Morse says that this is 15 cents. This is as close
to MUSETTE as you are likely to get in a two-reed and not be completely out
of tune. (Their new celluloid boxes like Erica and Double Ray with the
molded plastic fingerboards from China are hopelessly gutless in sound and
toy-like in construction.)
Joe Burke's earliest recordings are on 4-reed factory-tuned MUSETTE Paolos.
Later instruments sound like they were retuned drier. His new, wonderful
Galliard sounds like one clarinet reed is tuned SWING with the other three
reeds tuned DRY.
I'm not done, but I can't take up any more room.
Chiao, --chris :^P
----------
> Really-From: msc...@nas.com (Mike Schway)
>
> In article <wJsL2.1131$ap....@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Hans Palm"
> <hans...@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>>Check out http://accordion.simplenet.com/wetdry.html
>>
>>Hans Palm
>>Sweden
>>http://accordion.simplenet.com
>
> Thanks, Hans. Nice site. I've bookmarked it.
>
> I read Richard Morse's article and I have a hard time believing a Cajun
> accordion would be wetter than a French Canadian and that an Irish box
> would be wetter than either of them.
>
> Maybe I'm confusing cents with his 1-to-10 wetness scale, but I was under
> the impression that the trend is to tune modern Irish accordions fairly
> dry, Cajun very dry and Quebec wet, but not as wet as contra/Scottish
> country dance.
>
> I'm still a bit curious about "swing" and "demi-swing".
>
> Thanks again,
> --Mike Schway
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chris moran
Hi Mike, See below to "START," Do not pass GO........
----------
>From: Mike Schway <msc...@nas.com>
>To: "chris moran" <cmo...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: SML: Re: Degrees of wetness
>Date: Tue, Mar 30, 1999, 6:29 AM
>
> At 11:08 AM +0000 on 3/29/99, you wrote:
>> "DEGREES OF WETNESS" Sounds like a bad porn-flick.
MIKE, I got this in my inbox this morning. (You know, YOU are the one who
thought of that nasty title.)
"Please refrain from posting filthy humor to the newsgroup. Thank you."
--Helen P.
> Well, I was hoping to get some attention. :-)
So just because I gave YOUR phrase a little bit of attention, I get hit with
the "filthy humor" thing! Forever BRANDED as a newsgroup pre-vert! Censured!
Cast aside like a sucked orange! Adrift on a fetid sea of lonely, lowly
persecution. Forever remembered as "The Defiler of the Squeezebox
Newsgroup."
But, Mike, just one thing...and you know it...and I know it:
"FILTH" is in the Eye of the Beholder.
OKAY, BACK TO BUSINESS:
>> Sharon Shannon's Lilly is a single reed instrument, so it is completely
>> concertina DRY. What keeps the sound lively and interesting is the high
>> quality handmade reeds.
>
> Are Bincis handmade?
BEST-OF-MY-KNOWLEDGE, YES. MY NOW DEPARTED, LEFT-HANDED ACADIAN "D" HAD
BINCIS AND YOU COULDN'T GET A MORE LOVELY NASAL VOICE, SO I WOULD BE PRETTY
CERTAIN "YES," WITHOUT ABSOLUTE (PAPAL) CONFIRMATION.
>> On Marc Savoy's "Acadian" Cajun boxes, the tuning is completely DRY except
>> for the thirds and sevenths (?) which are tuned 3 cents apart. Quebecios
>> boxes are tuned evenly with a lot of tremelo (I have no "cents" marker here,
>> nor do I know if more than one reed is tuned "off" ala MUSETTE tuning.)
>
> True, except that around 1980 he tried to talk lots of Cajun wannabees
> (myself included) into wetter tuning... My D box ('81) is wet-tuned about 15c
in the clairinet octave.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! EVERYBODY POLKA! I WOULD PROBABLY LIKE THAT ONE. I DO NOT
PLAY MUSIC WITH OTHERS VERY OFTEN, SO I FIND AN INSTRUMENT WITH MORE TREMOLO
A BIT MELLOWER AND MORE FORGIVING.
> In '91 I got a dry C from him.
HOPE THAT WASN'T PAINFUL.
> The 3rds and 7ths aren't really
> any wetter than the rest of the box, but they're tuned about 20c flat of
> even tempered... so maybe the 3c you report is just tuning error. 3c is
really only about 1 Hz in the mid octave. You could only hear that on whole
notes.
YES, YOU HAVE CAUGHT ME IN PROZAC MOMENT. I HAVE DONE SOME BAD TRANSPOSING
IN MY MEMORY-BANKS AND MY FAITH IN KNOWLEDGE OF "TUNING-CENTS-SENSE" HAS
BEEN FURTHER SCRAMBLED BY THE MORSE ARTICLE. SO DO ME A FAVOR IF YOU CAN OR
CARE TO, GIVE ME *YOUR* TAKE ON WHAT DEGREES-OF-W**NESS A FEW WELL KNOWN BOX
PLAYERS PLAY AT ACCORDING TO THE CENTS SCALE. MCCOMISKY'S "CORNER HOUSE"
RECORDINGS WITH IRISH TRADITION
>
> So is Demi-swing drier than swing?
YES. IT JUST BARELY REGISTERS A DISSONANT BEAT, BUT THE SEPARATION BETWEEN
THE REEDS IS AURALLY PRONOUNCED ENOUGH TO GIVE THE EFFECT OF A VOCAL "BUZZ"
WHICH IS QUITE PLEASING.
> I saw Patrick St. a couple weeks back. Couldn't see the make of the box,
> but it was a greenish-brown <??>. Not a Paolo. There was some trem to the
> sound, but I don't know if you would call it swing or demi. Certainly not
> bone dry.
SOUNDS LIKE A VERY COOL BOX. I LOVE CELLULOID BOXES, WAS IT A CELLULOID?
(SLATHER.) PROBABLY DEMI-SWING TUNED OR "JACKIE-SWING" TUNED WHICH IS
SOFTER. JACKIE HAS LOTS OF OLD BOXES THAT HE'S FRANKENSTEINED AND THEY ALL
SOUND GREAT. JACKIE IS A TREASURE TO BE RESPECTED, EVEN CHERISHED; AND
EMULATED...BUT NEVER TRY TO FIGURE HIM OUT OR WHAT HE DOES TO ANY DEGREE OF
ACCURACY. ITS LIKE DESCRIBING FOG.
>>
>> Then, in two-reed instruments, there is the Hohner tuning (which I still
>> like a lot) and it is a pretty radical tremolo depending what era the
>> instrument was made in. Morse says that this is 15 cents. This is as close
>> to MUSETTE as you are likely to get in a two-reed and not be completely out
>> of tune. (Their new celluloid boxes like Erica and Double Ray with the
>> molded plastic fingerboards from China are hopelessly gutless in sound and
>> toy-like in construction.)
>
> My Acadian D is about 15c and it's nowhere NEAR as wet as my old spoon-bass
> 4-stop pseudo-pokerwerk (was this a 114?). I haven't looked at it with a
> tuner since it's on semi-permanent loan, but I'll bet you it's close to
> 30c. Awful thing, but it got me started.
>
YA' KNOW MIKE, I"M REALLY FLUBBERED ON THIS AND I'VE GOT TO GET IT STRAIGHT
THROUGH THE JELLIED GRAY MATTER THAT IS POSING AS MY BRAIN. I'M IN THE
PROCESS OF ORDERING A C#/D TREMOLO FROM HYDE IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA (ANYBODY OWN
A HYDE OUT THERE?) AND HE'S TALKING ABOUT PUTTING +10 CENTS ON IT, AND MY
GUT FEELING IS THAT THIS WILL NOT BE ENOUGH FOR ME. I'M A JOE COOLEY
KINDA-GUY.
> I've seen some of the Chinese "Hohner" 3-rows
> (the International), and they really are crap. The old double-rays &
> Ericas weren't too bad, were they? One of my favorite 2 rows belongs to a
> friend in Seattle...a D/G Erica. Nice and bright.
OLD HOHNER DOUBLE-RAYS AND ERICAS ARE FINE, PREDICTABLE INSTRUMENTS. HELL, I
MEAN H*CK, IF MCCOMISKEY RECORDED A WHOLE IRISH TRADITION ALBUM ON A
DOUBLE-RAY THEN WHAT CAN I SAY, EXCEPT MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE NEW ONES WAS
ABYSMAL.
>
> Why are you selling the Saltarelle Bouebe? My own playing for 20+ years is
> single-row Cajun/Quebecois and have no idea how to play a b/c, but I have a
> bit more than a passing interest in a c#/d (ala Jackie Daly). I don't
> really NEED another instrument, but you know how THAT goes!
THE BOUEBE IS NOW ON ITS WAY TO A LOVELY KENT STATE STUDENT. IF SHE DOESN'T
LIKE IT, I'LL WIRE YA--AFTER I FINISH WRITING AN OUT-PATIENT COUNSELLING
REFERRAL FOR HER. GREAT INSTRUMENT. GREAT ACTION. GREAT EXAMPLE OF
DEMI-SWING TUNING. I MADE THE DECISION TO GO BACK TO SWING (PLUS?) TUNING
AND I REFUSED TO ALTER THE INTEGRITY OF MY (NOW FORMER) BOX. NOW LOOKING
INTO HYDE ACCORDIONS PRODUCT.
I'll be away for a while (two weeks maybe) and I have this nightmare
relationship with my server and I still can't seem to access my email
remotely! The Great Computer Wizard. So, stay dry folks and...
Happy Trails! --chris
chris moran
>>Forever remembered as "The Defiler of the Squeezebox Newsgroup."
> I hope the flamelet from Helen P. was meant in good humor. I really should
check the attributions when I respond. You know, *you* were the person who
mentioned "porn flick" :-)
Oh, you troublemaker, you! But, yes, you're right AGAIN, I did mention "porn
flick" But this is silly. Yes, I'm afraid Helen P. was serious as starch.
But at least I didn't use one of the "seven words which you can't say on
television"! I'll have to hire George Carlin as my personal Internet
editor/censor. :^P
>> MY NOW DEPARTED, LEFT-HANDED ACADIAN "D"
>
> Left-handed?
I play regular accordions upsidedown, grille facing left, right hand on
bass. 10 key melodeons have stops, that places those stops squarely in MY
lap where they get all twisted and close themselves and do no good at
all.(Stop giggling, I won't elaborate---I promise, Helen.) Marc made me a
fine rosewood box, with all basses, air-valves, and treble side configured
exactly as a right-hand box with the stops on what would be YOUR south side
of the intrument. In left-handed position, the stops were on the (new) north
side, the low notes were on the bottom and the high notes on the top.
However,I was a hideous Cajun player/student and I eventually sold the box!
>
>> DO ME A FAVOR IF YOU CAN OR
>> CARE TO, GIVE ME *YOUR* TAKE ON WHAT DEGREES-OF-W**NESS A FEW WELL KNOWN BOX
>> PLAYERS PLAY AT ACCORDING TO THE CENTS SCALE. MCCOMISKY'S "CORNER HOUSE"
>> RECORDINGS WITH IRISH TRADITION
>
> I can't really measure cents from a recording...I measured my own accordion
> against my electronic tuner (it has a meter calibrated in Hz and cents away
> from center freq). If you can count beats per sec, there's a logrhythmic
> relationship between cents and Hz, but I would need some paper and
> head-scratching to reduce it. something like each semitone is the 12th
> root of 2 x the lower freq. A cent is (here i'm confused) either a 1/100
> of a semitone or 1/100 of a full tone. My D which I measured @ 15c is
> about 4Hz off in the mid octave.
OOOOOOOOoooooo, I'm lost. But I have a dim GROK of it.
>>JACKIE DALY HAS LOTS OF OLD BOXES THAT HE'S FRANKENSTEINED AND THEY ALL
>> SOUND GREAT.
>
> (Re: Patrick st. performance w/Daly:) I could see NO bellows movement. I
would almost expect that with a b/c box but not a c#/d. Again, I have no
idea what instrument he was playing. I don't think it was celluloid...that
would've had a rounder shape.
>
Hmmmmmmmm, no bellows movement ,eh? You'ld almost think he was hiding a MIDI
in that wierd green box. (Kind of like saying that Jesus used pontoons!)
Jackie can play in virtually any key he wants to with a C#/D or B/C or D/D#
(his first "solo" album with Seamus Creagh) or even C/C#. McComiskey related
to me that Jackie started off as a B/C player! He is very fond of an older 3
reed Saltarelle. I have no idea what the third reed is. A bassoon tuned dry
or a clarinet tuned demi-swing. His last solo record had him *predominately*
playing what sounded like a two-reed tuned almost completely dry. He MAY
have re-reeded the box with BINCIs or similar by the lovely quality of the
sound. But, Jeez, trying to guess what he does...Yeeesh! (And you STILL
can't find a descent paint-by-the-numbers Vermeer anywhere!)
> 10c isn't *real* dry. My D @ 15c is just about right for me (for
> Quebecois, not Cajun). I got a post from Rich @ the Button Box and he says
> some of the Soprani's he's been inside of are around 25-30c. That's a LOT!
> You might like the 15c sound. Too bad you don't live near the maker or you
> could get it @ 10c and retune it later if it's too dry.
>
Thanks, I think that is pretty solid advice. 15c it will (probably) be!
> Did they ever make an Erica in halfstep tuning?
And still do on special order (probably in lots of 20+) for some of the
English retail stores. The Erica and the Double-Ray are (at least now)
virtually the same. I thought I was being smart by ordering a C#/D Erica/Dbl
Ray and was gravely disappointed with the instrument (made in Shanghai).
Sharon Shannon used to play a Pokerwork which I think was a C#/D. You can
see it in many pics of hers. Hohner also made 4-reed/5-switch Amatoma-s in
C#/D. Surf the English music shops on the net and you'll find several C/C#
Hohner boxes cheap, now that they appear to have fallen out of favor.
>> THE BOUEBE IS NOW ON ITS WAY TO A LOVELY KENT STATE STUDENT. IF SHE DOESN'T
>> LIKE IT, I'LL WIRE YA--AFTER I FINISH WRITING AN OUT-PATIENT COUNSELLING
>> REFERRAL FOR HER.
>
> Great. Let me know. How much do you think it'll run, and is it a C#/D?
Yes, C#/D demi-swing. If she sends it back, which I seriously doubt, the
price is $1100 plus shipping.
NOW, I really AM gone! --bye! --chris
Peter Thornton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sq...@hockeytape.com
> [mailto:owner-sq...@hockeytape.com]On Behalf Of chris moran
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 March, 1999 20:10
> To: squee...@hockeytape.com
> Cc: Mike Schway
> Subject: Re: SML: Re: Degrees of wetness
> I'M IN THE
> PROCESS OF ORDERING A C#/D TREMOLO FROM HYDE IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA
> (ANYBODY OWN
> A HYDE OUT THERE?) AND HE'S TALKING ABOUT PUTTING +10 CENTS ON IT, AND MY
> GUT FEELING IS THAT THIS WILL NOT BE ENOUGH FOR ME. I'M A JOE COOLEY
> KINDA-GUY.
G'day
I've had a 'Hyde' for 2 years now. It sounded great when Stormy built it and
I reckon sounds even better now. It's up there with Castagnari, Saltarelle,
etc. I play a D/G system but I had an E row added to mine so now I'm an
E/D/G player. Anyway, I can certainly recommend 'Hydes'. BTW Chris, please
don't SHOUT - I *can* hear you in Adelaide ...... :-)
I'm off to Canberra for a week for the National Folk Festival - should find
a few good sessions, might even bump into Bazza. Happy Easter to all!
Pete
Rocky River Bush Band & Rafferty's Rules
http://members.tripod.com/~rockyriverbushband/
South Coast Folk Club
http://www.Geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3624/index.html