The Total Replacement of Reeds?
W.D.
> Lilliums are such gorgeous boxes...and you
> actually had the Antonelli reeds replaced with Binci's? Isn't that
> kinda gilding the lilly? Looks like an absolutely great box,>>>
I heard many times accordions with new Antonelli reeds but I am not
sure about Binci sound.
Why the decisions about replacing those reeds are being made? Are
there is much difference in the costs, and the sound improvement to
warrant all that work?
Could anybody who knows the difference would explain here why in your
opinion, Binci reeds sound better when incorporated in this particular
accordion or any other box?
The reason I am asking is because I'm thinking about replacing old and
perfect reeds in one of mine very beautiful Italian accordions. I want
it to sound nice and bright with much better color of tone in order to
match its beauty.
I am not sure that reeds itself wouldn't do it even when tuned
perfectly. Considering such an expense and the "tons" of work it's
very scary enterprise for me without knowing if I will like the new
sound of this accordion.
Accordionally yours,
W.D.
W.D.
From: Johann Pascher <jp@e...>
Date: Sat May 17, 2003 10:07 am
Subject: SML: The Total Replacement of Reeds?
Hi, W.D.
>Could anybody who knows the difference would explain here why in your
>opinion,
>Binci reeds sound better when incorporated in this particular
>accordion or any other box?
It would also interest me!
I only know one thing that Binci, is not producing any reeds.
The do only some hand riveting.
I nearly could not find the Address as I went down to Castellfidardo
to
visit them.
It is a backyard with a little old building. In this garage a person
ware sitting alone next to the workbench riveting reeds. He did not
speak German or English but he called someone on the phone. And after
a
wile a person drove up with a motorcycle. This person did show me then
all kind of different sets of reeds. A lot of row material was stored
in
this room in different boxes on the floor.
No special care where taken for this material. Open and closed boxes
with the parts just thrown in.
The ready-made sets ware warped in paper as the are usual wrapped up.
I think the have materiel from different productions.
And I think the webpage is better as all together.
>The reason I am asking is because I'm thinking about replacing old
and
>perfect reeds in one of mine very beautiful Italian accordions.
>I want it to sound nice and bright with much better color of tone in
order >to match its beauty.
>I am not sure that reeds itself wouldn't do it even when tuned
>perfectly.
I am not sure too.
>Considering such an expense and the "tons" of work it's
>very scary enterprise for me without knowing if I will like the new
>sound of this accordion.
>Accordionally yours,
>W.D.
Johann
Thanks Johann for responding. Above seem to be very interesting
reading that might interest few of us. For some reason it did not
make it in a proper way to this NG from Yahoo Squeezebox. I did it for
you manually.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
a.d. homan
>
> >Could anybody who knows the difference would explain here why in your
> >opinion,
> >Binci reeds sound better when incorporated in this particular
> >accordion or any other box?
>
i think i can answer that question.
binci reeds are prized in particular for diatonic accordions (including irish-system accordions, so i guess
"bisonoric" would be the proper way to put it). many players and builders of diatonic boxes discern a different
quality of sound from binci reeds than from their high-end counterparts siva (salpa/antonelli) and artigiani.
if rumours are correct, binci buys supplies from siva, then finishes the reeds themselves. johann is not
correct by saying that they are only putting the rivets in. they are fitting the reeds, setting them properly,
performing 2nd tunings, etc. some of our reed experts can fill us in on this, i hope. i was shocked to hear
the description of the workshop that johann gave us, but all i can say is that the proof is in the pudding... i
guess some of the best food won't necessarily come from a sterile kitchen! ;)
personally, i find that binci reeds have a punch and growl that i've not heard from other reeds. what causes
the difference, i don't know, but i've never heard a box with antonellis sound like that. i like both sounds,
and i probably wouldn't have changed out the reeds in the box in question, but to each his own...
andy
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi Andy!
Is good to hear Your opinion!
I would like to hear some more!
I am sure there must be a lot more players with binci reeds in
The Box the play!
>>
>> >Could anybody who knows the difference would explain here why in your
>> >opinion,
>> >Binci reeds sound better when incorporated in this particular
>> >accordion or any other box?
>>
>i think i can answer that question.
>binci reeds are prized in particular for diatonic accordions (including >irish-system accordions, so i guess "bisonoric" would be the proper way to >put it). many players and builders of diatonic boxes discern a differnt
>quality of sound from binci reeds than from their high-end counterparts >siva (salpa/antonelli) and artigiani.
Would be nice if wee would hear more from somone in the group!
To prove this, I an not saying you are wrong, please anderstand.
>if rumours are correct, binci buys supplies from siva, then finishes the >reeds themselves.
From my opinion this could be right.
Where did You here some rumours, tell as what you did hear?
>johann is not correct by saying that they are only putting the rivets in. >they are fitting the reeds, setting them properly, performing 2nd tunings, >etc.
OK, I agree the may do a little more as I could watch, when I have been down there.
But I must say there is no special equipment in this garage.
Files hammer and workbench not more, not even a good illumination.
And one person working and not much place for other persons to work on this place either.
>some of our reed experts can fill us in on this, i hope.
>i was shocked to hear the description of the workshop that johann gave us, >but all i can say is that the proof is in the pudding... i
>guess some of the best food won't necessarily come from a sterile kitchen! >;)
OK. Again my be, lets proof this.
Usually it is the other way round.
May be the person who is riveting is very experienced.
And again one has to watch the gap in the light. To do a good job.
And I rather would trust measure equipment, air pressure and leakage tests as I have seen in Loony.
May be the have very good old raw material?
But players can prove it too,
very good reed material tends to be unplayable if you cool down the instrument. Lets say in the winter in a cold room, if the Instrument makes noise because the tongues touch the frames, then usually the reed do have very small gaps.
But not only the gap is a measure of Quality.
And if bici is not producing the raw material what else can the contribute to quality?
>personally, i find that binci reeds have a punch and growl that i've not >heard from other reeds.
>what causes the difference, i don't know, but i've never heard a box with >antonellis sound like that.
Since you did see both reed types, are the different in appearance?
Different reed "mensur" (different measures on equal tones)
Length
Form
With
Curveing
>i like both sounds, and i probably wouldn't have changed out the reeds in >the box in question, >but to each his own...
>andy
I hope to here more of this subject.
Johann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a.d.homan
for instance, see:
http://www.cmtra.org/entretiens/archivenrtetiens/lettre45/Gaillard.html
it would be hard to believe that gaillard would risk his hard-earned and elite reputation by using reeds of unreliable quality.
same goes for savoy and messervier.
it is at most an item of interest if binci produces reeds in the messy circumstances that you describe, but it doesn't surprise me any more than it would surprise me to see the "dirty" conditions under which some of the "finest" cheeses
are produced. i believe it is a waste of time to "prove" the quality, as you ask people to do. i really think that you pre-judged binci based on the workshop's appearance and missed out on the chance to discover what makes them
special. did you ask what makes them special? and i really do think it's a mistake to judge craftsmanship based on cleanliness. if cleanliness was the standard, then factories would always produce items of higher standards than small
workshops, which is obviously not the case.
the fact is, in the community of those who build and play high-end diatonic boxes, binci reeds are among those most preferred, along with salpa, artigiana, and antonelli. within that community it goes without saying that binci reeds
are of a very high standard. each type of reed has different qualities of sound attributed to it, and each maker offers different options such as various lengths, or various material reedplates. when i heard that siva makes some
components that are used in binci reeds, my first reaction was to think that those who prefer binci are believing in a "myth." but now, with experience, i believe that there are differences, and that personal preferences -- and
occasionally economic factors -- determine the choice of binci vs. other makers. but i have never heard of any builder "doubting" binci's status as you suggest we do. please correct me if i'm wrong about that.
it is possible that there are some stories about people of lesser experience levels taking over this or that workshop in castelfidardo, including binci. but in defense of binci reeds, they are still used by some of the finest builders
of accordions, and obviously some players stand by their quality as well, so who cares if the cook forgets to wash his hands when the stew is being enjoyed by the most discerning palettes? if you want "proof" in this case, i think
you'll have to try them out yourself, for what you do not taste you can hardly judge!
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi W.D.
Thank you very much.
>Thanks Johann for responding. Above seem to be very interesting
>reading that might interest few of us. For some reason it did not
>make it in a proper way to this NG from Yahoo Squeezebox. I did it for
>you manually.
>Enjoy it,
>W.D.
My be there a other mails that did not come trough,
I don know where the problem can be?
I only have sometime a look at Yahoo and there I can find all my
postings.
Johann
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi Andy Homan!
I only did explain what I have seen.
I never wonted to pre-judge the reed quality.
And it may be for some reason or the other that this reeds are better as
some other reeds you can get somewhere else.
I had also in mind, my be the have old material from some sell off.
You write:
>but i have never heard of any builder "doubting" binci's status as you
>suggest we do. please correct me if i'm wrong about that.
I correct You!
I do not suggest anything!
If you got the impression I did my be I am not as mighty in explaining
things in English Language.
You write:
>You’ll have to try them out yourself, for what you do not taste you can
>hardly judge!
I don’t want to judge at all, sorry.
And perhaps not everyone wont’s to tray everything and learns the hard
way.
Is it not better, if we can learn from each other without making every
experience one self?
Lets thick abut this,
Johann
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
>
> Hi Walter,
Thank you, for all this info!
I make some comment if You like!
>
> > My be there a other mails that did not come trough,
> > I don know where the problem can be?
> >
>
> I have seen in your response that there was word "Advertisement"
between
> the lines at the top.
OK! I understand.
> I only suspect that they affraid of it and did not copy such postings
to
> this NG. They do not accept pictures or sometimes something is too
> controversial so they would not let it in either.
OK! I have to be careful.
>
> > I only have sometime a look at Yahoo and there I can find all my
> > postings.
>
> That what actually happens all the time. Mr. Don Nichols who run this
group
> decides what is going in or what is not. He set up special "Gates" or
> "Doors" that do not let in some in some postings automatically.
That’s good, and he makes a good job I thick!
> >
> > Johann
> >
> You did good job Johann. They think that everything is nice and dandy
over
> there.
> People in Europe have to struggle they same way to make few new
$Euros.
Yes that’s really true!
It is relay hard to survive in some parts of the field.
A lot of companies ware closed down here and the moved on to Czech
Republic or some other former eastern Country’s. The last a Company
around here was a factory for engines ( for small aircaft).
Over hundred employees are out of work. And now I have a friend he work
for Libher Austria.
And the build a new Factory also in the Czech Rebublic. He drives one
day in the week to Czech to transfer his know how. And when it all is
working what then?
We had this many times before.
And for the Italian reed factories it must be rely difficult at the
moment!
> That reed maker company in Czech Republic that you have mentioned is
very
> interesting too.
>It seems they are very advanced in reed production.
>It looks that they use the same building as former Delicia in Horovice
and
> have very modern equipment.
Delica is in Horovice and I did speak to the manager (a woman) don’t
know the name at the moment.
I had the chance at an exhibition to contact her.
In the past I did tray to get into the factory for some tour around, but
the never did let me in.
The manager promised me this time he will arrange for a tour around the
building in Horovice.
It is not very far away from where I live, 150 km drive across the
boarder. And this boarder will fall soon.
Since Czech Republic will come to the EU.
Horovice is in the south of Czech Republic and Loony is up north.
Delicia and Harmonicas are not one company but the co-operate.
Delicia has no reed production the get the reeds also from loony.
Horovice is abut 200 km away from Loony.
And Loony is near the German Border an just 50km away from Klingenthal
where
Harmona (Weltmeister) is located.
Know how transfer from Germany (And Equipment) did take place over
years.
Some know how also did come from Italy too.
The Do both processes the old German and the Italian and now the EDM.
In Klingenthal the Schaumanifaktur is still producing some type of reed
with the Italian technology.
And Sydel uses the DIX German technology foe brass reeds.
By the way You can have every brass reed for special order from SYDEL.
The do single reeds and long reed plates all one wont’s.
>
> I bought from Czechs in the past four new chromatic accordions.
Sold
> three of them and keep small CBA for myslef.
Haw is the Quality, what is your opinion?
Hers the diatonic Czech Accordions considered as low quality.
Not the reeds, but the mechanic is not quit that what the musicians like
here.
>
> Sincerely,
> Walter
>
have a nice day, Johann
Theodore Kloba
> And Sydel uses the DIX German technology foe brass reeds.
>
> By the way You can have every brass reed for special order from SYDEL.
> The do single reeds and long reed plates all one wont’s.
Dix used to make bandonion and konzertina reeds for many different
instrument makers. I have one old konzertina (ca. 1920) with Dix reeds.
They are easy to identify because the long edge of the plate is stamped
with a small circle (about 3mm).
The profiles are ground lengthwise on the reed tongue so that the tiny
scratches are less likely to create a failure point that causes a broken
reed. (Dunkel's "Bandonion und Konzertina" includes a copy of an old
advertisement for this feature from Dix in 1933.)
W.D.
> Hers the diatonic Czech Accordions considered as low quality.
> Not the reeds, but the mechanic is not quit that what the musicians like
> here.
>
Hi Johann,
In order to respond to you in public, I have to wait till any posting
which is on Yahoo.squeezebox gets to this NG. I do not understand
completely that process and I do not wish to sign in anymore for any
other group.
As far as the quality of Delicia is concerned, I was very satisfied
with it. They were built very well and used an excellent wood product.
The woodwork craftsmanship on the shell was an excellent. The sound
reminded me something between Hohner and the French musette.
As far as the button mechanism, I think, I like it better their flat
CBA keyboard than gradual. Delicia's flat keyboard mechanism is equal
or even better in feeling of ease than two Piginis' mechanism I was
checking to buy it beforem, however, I am not a big expert on CBA or
DBA.
I used flat CBA keyboard because I noticed that it is better for my
wrist. I do not have any symptoms of CTS when I use flat keyboard now.
Enjoy it,
W.D.
Johann Pascher
Really-Reply-To: Johann Pascher <j_pa...@yahoo.de>
Really-From: Johann Pascher j_pa...@yahoo.de
Hi, W. D.!
I am sorry about this few lines, perhaps I should have mad clear that
this
Is what I hear from the majority of diatonic players here in Austria.
And it depends on the past years after the opening of the border to
Czech Rebubic. The war very inexpensive, not now any more.
And in the end it all depends an what one likes!
I like stepped keyboards not a flat one, some say a wood keyboard is
much better as the Italian aluminium mechanic and so on..
(I do not know really, what’s better.)
I know all this keyboards and bass mechanic have good and bad sides.
Sure the should make not to mach noice!
But this would be all a new subject to talk abut!
I regret the sentence:
“Here the diatonic Czech Accordions are considered as low quality”
I should have made clear what type and way and and ..
And if I say:
“Not the reeds, but the mechanic is not quit that what the musicians
like Here.”
I should have made clear that it is the type of keyboard that is in use
on the Havlaceck Modell, it is a stepped 3 row, with the 3rd row to
close to the treble cover. So one touches some times the grill with the
fingertips.
And surer there are some other minor differences to the Austrian
Type of “Steirische Harmonika”.
And for the rest of your comment I would not say something else.
My discussion was toward reeds! And not toward any other aspect.
>> Haw is the Quality, what is your opinion?
>> Here the diatonic Czech Accordions are considered as low quality.
>> Not the reeds, but the mechanic is not quit that what the musicians
like
>> Here.
>Hi Johann,
>In order to respond to you in public, I have to wait till any posting
>which is on Yahoo.squeezebox gets to this NG. I do not understand
>completely that process and I do not wish to sign in anymore for any
>other group.
>As far as the quality of Delicia is concerned, I was very satisfied
>with it. They were built very well and used an excellent wood product.
>The woodwork craftsmanship on the shell was an excellent. The sound
>reminded me something between Hohner and the French musette.
>As far as the button mechanism, I think, I like it better their flat
>CBA keyboard than gradual. Delicia's flat keyboard mechanism is equal
>or even better in feeling of ease than two Piginis' mechanism I was
>checking to buy it beforem, however, I am not a big expert on CBA or
>DBA.
>I used flat CBA keyboard because I noticed that it is better for my
>wrist. I do not have any symptoms of CTS when I use flat keyboard now.
>Enjoy it,
>W.D.
Thanks for replay,
Johann
DoN. Nichols
Johann Pascher <j...@elektor.htl-leonding.ac.at> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> > My be there a other mails that did not come trough,
>> > I don know where the problem can be?
>> >
>>
>> I have seen in your response that there was word "Advertisement"
>between
>> the lines at the top.
>OK! I understand.
>
>> I only suspect that they affraid of it and did not copy such postings
>to
>> this NG. They do not accept pictures or sometimes something is too
>> controversial so they would not let it in either.
>
>OK! I have to be careful.
Most usenet newsgroups have guidelines which prohibit the
attachment of any binary files -- photos, sound files, Microsoft Word
documents, and many other such things -- in any *discussion* newsgroup.
Binaries are *only* acceptable in newsgroups which contain the word
"binaries" in the newsgroup name -- and many news servers opt to not
carry binaries newsgroups because of the immense amount of disk space
and bandwidth which they consume. With all of the binaries newsgroups
(most in the alt.* heirarchy), the bandwidth necessary to move a single
day's articles is now well over the capacity of a T3 line -- once the
ultimate of fast network connections -- and involving a large expense in
leasing multiple phone lines.
>> > I only have sometime a look at Yahoo and there I can find all my
>> > postings.
>>
>> That what actually happens all the time. Mr. Don Nichols who run this
>group
>> decides what is going in or what is not. He set up special "Gates" or
>
>> "Doors" that do not let in some in some postings automatically.
>
>That’s good, and he makes a good job I thick!
Now -- let's clarify this:
1) I don't *run* the newsgroup. No single individual runs a
newsgroup. They may run a single news server, or even a cluster
of news servers, but there are thousands of other news servers,
and unlike a web page which has a single home system, usenet
news can survive with any system missing from the net.
2) This newsgroup started as a mailing list, which *does* require a
single host system. It was run on a system in a college in
the state of Pennsylvania, USA. The amount of traffic was
growing beyond the capabilities of the person owning the mailing
list (Phoebe Sengers) to keep up with the administrative needs,
so we discussed converting it to a newsgroup.
At that time, a certain percentage of the regulars did
not want to go to usenet, or could not (in the case of one
regular in Australia, who received the e-mail from the list as
mainframe computer printouts. -- Hi Baz :-)
So -- I offered to run a gateway to couple the newsgroup
to the old mailing list. Those who preferred the usenet format
moved (I included), and those who preferred the mailing list
format stayed -- but this was a much smaller group, so the
administrative load on Phoebe was reduced. It was fairly easy
for me to set up a gateway, as I run my own news server, and my
own mail server.
Eventually, Phoebe graduated, and moved on (to Germany,
IIRC). The mailing list had to find a new host. It did, and I
adjusted my gateway scripts to keep the connection.
There have been several changes of mailing list server,
as older systems were shut down -- or the last as eGroups was
absorbed by YahooGroups.
Through this I have tried to keep the gateway running to
connect the two groupings. For a while, the gateway was
operating in only one direction, as Yahoo had done something
strange which was keeping them from sending *to* the gateway,
but which was accepting traffic from the gateway.
Because usenet is victimized by spam, I set up filters
to block what I could automatically recognize as spam. I also
blocked all binaries, as they can serve as a vehicle for virii.
This was in two directions, though YahooGroups now has pretty
good blocking of binaries on their side anyway.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to recognize the first
occurrence of a new spam, so some sneak by. It is also not
possible to make a set of filters which does not make mistakes
from time to time, and classify a normal posting as spam. So
some messages will simply not get through, and if I see evidence
of that, it may take a lot of study to figure out exactly why it
was blocked.
One blocking factor on the from-usenet side is that spam
tends to be cross-posted, so anything posted to more than a
certain threshold of newsgroups (determined by counting commas
"," in the "Newsgroups: " header are automatically blocked.
So -- I run *only* the gateway. I don't run the
YahooGroups mailing list, and I don't run the usenet newsgroup
rec.music.makers.squeezebox.
Anyone else is welcome to take over the gateway, if they
wish to -- but the odds are that the scripts which I have
written will not work on most other systems. :-)
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Johann Pascher
Hi, Theodore Kloba !
>Johann Pascher wrote:
>> And Sydel uses the DIX German technology foe brass reeds.
>
>> By the way You can have every brass reed for special order from SYDEL.
>> The do single reeds and long reed plates all one wont’s.
Theodore Koba answered:
>Dix used to make bandonion and konzertina reeds for many different
>Instrument makers. I have one old konzertina (ca. 1920) with Dix reeds.
>They are easy to identify because the long edge of the plate is stamped
>with a small circle (about 3mm).
>The profiles are ground lengthwise on the reed tongue so that the tiny
>scratches are less likely to create a failure point that causes a broken
>reed. (Dunkel's "Bandonion und Konzertina" includes a copy of an old
>advertisement for this feature from Dix in 1933.)
I also have this type of reeds in the old 2 row Novak helicon box.
Zinc with steel tongues, and the have all the circle mark, You describe.
And I have a lot of old reeds with this circle marking on it to.
Unfortunately not whole sets of reeds.
SYDEL only makes brass reeds.
At SYDEL the curving of the reed tongue is applied with a special radial milling cutter.
Not with a belt grinding machine as used for steel tongues production today.
Johann