Please Help: Bravo III made in Germany?
L M
sold the Hohner accordion to us. The model is Bravo III 120. And the
price is 3750 US Dollar.
But we check from internet, usually Bravo III 120 just sell for
1400 US Dollar. And we ask for the Hohner dealer in Hong Kong, their
price is around 1500 US Dollar. And as far as we searched, the
production line of Bravo III is moved to China. The back of our
accordion does not have any marker of "MADE IN GERMANY".
When we asked our teacher, he said that the Hohner dealer's
accrodion are made in China. But as he is consultant of Hohner, his
accordion are ordered from Germany directly, and the Bravo III are
completely made in Germany. And the marker of "MADE IN GERMANY" is
inside the accordion.
Is it true that there are Bravo III made in Germany, and sell at
such expensive price? We would appreciate so much if anyone can
answer our question. Thank you very much for help.
David Kastrup
No. The Bravo model line is made in China. I don't think it ever was
produced in Germany as it is a newer entry level model.
Check <URL:http://www.peterunbehauen.de/p/06-hohner.html>.
If you find a "Made in Germany" inside, it may refer to some part.
Check out
<URL:http://www.hohner.eu/upload/news/ne_00000384_Hohner_informiert_100_Jahre_AG_22062009.doc>
from Hohner itself.
On the second page, you find
Dem Argument „Made in Germany“ kommt nach wie vor höchste Bedeutung
zu. So werden alle Kernsortimente ab der mittleren Preislage
ausschließlich in Deutschland gefertigt. Volumenmodelle, die teils
andernorts entstehen, basieren vollständig auf deutschen Vorgaben
und werden mit Hohner und Sonor eigenen Werkzeugen
gefertigt. Höchste Klangqualität ist somit universell.
That is
The argument "made in Germany" remains of utmost importance.
Consequently, all core collections starting from intermediate price
range are produced exclusively in Germany. Volume models, partly
produced elsewhere, are completely based on German specifications
and are produced with Hohner's and Sonor's own tools. Highest
sound quality thus is universal.
That is clad in euphemisms, but the key part is that the entry level
models are produced in China. The machines for doing so are not even
left in Germany. Since Hohner very much relies on the strength of "made
in Germany", you can be sure that an entry level model indeed made in
Germany would proudly pronounce it, not just on the inside.
You may want to write to the service department of Hohner and ask
whether consultants are able to get Bravo models produced in Germany for
triple the price.
The only Germany-produced entry level accordions you can get, are old
ones. But the Bravo III 120 is produced only since 2003 according to
Hohner's model list. It's certainly made in China.
In short: you likely have been taken for a ride. It is of course
theoretically possible to exchange the innards of an entry-level
accordion with higher quality materials. But why would anybody do so?
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:87ocmfq...@lola.goethe.zz...
I agree sith DK! Maybe you paid too much. Maybe your teacher doesn't know
anything about accordions, bought it for retail price thinking it was
wholesale. However, if the teacher won't take it back, then continue to
study and be careful what you buy from this teacher. More important to learn
to play well, than worry about a couple of thousand dollars.
I have never heard of a hohner consultant. Hohner doesn't need advice.
David Kastrup
> I have never heard of a hohner consultant. Hohner doesn't need
> advice.
Actually, I know two German accordion makers that worked as consultants
for Hohner for longer stretches of time. There has been a lot of
experimentation with different materials and constructions going on,
some making it into actual models, some not, some short-lived, others
longer.
Not every accordion specialist in Germany is living in Vogtland or
Trossingen, but many have spent time in either factory, and they know
each other well enough to bad-mouth the other's skills for non-standard
tasks. Or playing prowess. Or prices. Or whatever else.
I have my doubts that a Hongkong-based accordion teacher would have
worked in that function, though. The people I know that have worked in
that area were technical experts to a degree where teaching accordion
would just not fit in with their area of expertise.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
Yeah. Well you know, a lot of this new-fangled construction has been a
disaster.
Aside from the quality control problems inherent in trying to make stuff on
another continent.
Of course Weltmeister had the Modernism disease a lot worse thn Hohner, but
the fact they seem to have kept production in Europe made it a wash in the
competition, i.e., race to the bottom.
L M
A few days before, I sent email to Hohner, and they haven't reply me,
so I post in this newsgroup and hope someone can help.
Tonight, I sent email to Hohner's service department, and they replied
me immediately~
As you said, all Bravo are made in China~ And for germany made
accordion, there is a marker on the back.
And Bravo claim that the "Consultant" is not their consultant.
may be I can get back the money, may be I can't.
But I will try to stop the "Consultant" to cheat other student!
Thank you again~~~
On 12月4日, 下午5時29分, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> L M <day3...@yahoo.com.hk> writes:
> > We are accordion student from Hong Kong. Our accordion teacher
> > sold the Hohner accordion to us. The model is Bravo III 120. And the
> > price is 3750 US Dollar.
>
> > But we check from internet, usually Bravo III 120 just sell for
> > 1400 US Dollar. And we ask for the Hohner dealer in Hong Kong, their
> > price is around 1500 US Dollar. And as far as we searched, the
> > production line of Bravo III is moved to China. The back of our
> > accordion does not have any marker of "MADE IN GERMANY".
>
> > When we asked our teacher, he said that the Hohner dealer's
> > accrodion are made in China. But as he is consultant of Hohner, his
> > accordion are ordered from Germany directly, and the Bravo III are
> > completely made in Germany. And the marker of "MADE IN GERMANY" is
> > inside the accordion.
>
> > Is it true that there are Bravo III made in Germany, and sell at
> > such expensive price?
>
> No. The Bravo model line is made in China. I don't think it ever was
> produced in Germany as it is a newer entry level model.
>
> Check <URL:http://www.peterunbehauen.de/p/06-hohner.html>.
>
> If you find a "Made in Germany" inside, it may refer to some part.
>
> Check out
> <URL:http://www.hohner.eu/upload/news/ne_00000384_Hohner_informiert_100_Ja...>
> David Kastrup- 隱藏被引用文字 -
>
> - 顯示被引用文字 -
Ike Milligan
"L M" <day...@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:f2b1875e-089f-46a7...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Thank you so much~~
A few days before, I sent email to Hohner, and they haven't reply me,
so I post in this newsgroup and hope someone can help.
Tonight, I sent email to Hohner's service department, and they replied
me immediately~
As you said, all Bravo are made in China~ And for germany made
accordion, there is a marker on the back.
And Bravo claim that the "Consultant" is not their consultant.
may be I can get back the money, may be I can't.
But I will try to stop the "Consultant" to cheat other student!
Thank you again~~~
(IKE)
Unfortunately, this is typical behavior for many accordion dealers. However,
if you can;t get a refund, just practice and enjoy your accordion until you
can get a better one. It could be worse.
L M
accordion for his whole life. I don't think he don't know about the
accordion. As he is so famous, why I (also other students) trust him
so much, and finally cheat by him. And that's the reason I feel so
unhappy...
These few months, when I try to find the evidence, I also found other
dirty stuff about him...
let's see what will he said when he know I got the reply from
Hohner...
> > David Kastrup
>
> I agree sith DK! Maybe you paid too much. Maybe your teacher doesn't know
> anything about accordions, bought it for retail price thinking it was
> wholesale. However, if the teacher won't take it back, then continue to
> study and be careful what you buy from this teacher. More important to learn
> to play well, than worry about a couple of thousand dollars.
> I have never heard of a hohner consultant. Hohner doesn't need advice.- 隱藏被引用文字 -
>
> - 顯示被引用文字 -
L M
wrote:
> "L M" <day3...@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
Thank you for encouraging~
In fact, the "Consultant" (Teacher) always ask students to do work for
him, like copy, re-type accordion sheet, fixing computer...etc.
A few lessons before, I refuse to do so, then he just ignore me in the
lessons...
But I will keep on learning and enjoy playing accordion, may be self-
learning, may be following another good teacher later~
Ike Milligan
(IKE)
I can think of an good example her in the U.S. of a very greatr player and
teacher who did this sort of thing to sell accordions. A story was told to
me by someone:
He was going to sell a new accordion to his sister-in-law for $5,000 (?) (I
don't recall the exact figure) (many years ago). His wife invited the
importer and him to a spaghetti dinner with the sister. They kept asking the
teacher how much the accordion cost. He would not say. Later they had a
moment alone with the importer who divulged the fact that it cost $500. The
teacher was kicked out of the dinner with spaghetti on his head.
L M
>
> - 顯示被引用文字 -
haha, I also want to throw spaghetti on the "Consultant" head~
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> news:87skbqq...@lola.goethe.zz...
>> "Ike Milligan" <accord...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>>> I have never heard of a hohner consultant. Hohner doesn't need
>>> advice.
>>
>> Actually, I know two German accordion makers that worked as consultants
>> for Hohner for longer stretches of time. There has been a lot of
>> experimentation with different materials and constructions going on,
>> some making it into actual models, some not, some short-lived, others
>> longer.
>
> Yeah. Well you know, a lot of this new-fangled construction has been a
> disaster.
Oh, we are talking pre-Chinese times here. Those ex-consultants exhibit
quite a lack of enthusiasm about more recent developments. The largest
disaster from _older_ times might have been the disintegrating foam
pallets. But there were also quite a bit of advances in various parts
of the mechanics and material and some other stuff, like wax recipes (if
you ever tried traditional wax recipes on a plastic reedblock, you'd
notice that it does not stick). Hohner was pushing at the forefront at
some point of time, not just trying to get somewhere close to previous
quality again.
> Of course Weltmeister had the Modernism disease a lot worse thn
> Hohner, but the fact they seem to have kept production in Europe made
> it a wash in the competition, i.e., race to the bottom.
From what I hear, Weltmeister has improved a lot since the time of
plastic "Universum Elegance" and similar stuff. If I were in the
position to buy a new high quality instrument, they'd be pretty much the
top of my the shortlist. You can, by the way, book factory tours with
them if you are in the neighborhood. And go there and discuss what your
soloist instrument should look like with the makers. That's not so
feasible with Hohner...
For the older high quality instruments, Hohner remains a pretty good
brand.
--
David Kastrup
James
Parade model to a Hohner Bravo 72, made in China. I like the compact
size, that it didn't break the bank, and the sound is plenty decent
enough - especially on the wet registers. I never played much, but am
playing more with the Bravo.
I knew it was Chinese made when I got it, but it was a 'good fit' for
my current relationship with music-making.
Best wishes,
James
David Kastrup
Well, it beats Chinese made with Chinese quality control and knowhow
<URL:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbieIBCNFrI>.
Anyway, for me it is important that the sound is decent enough on single
reeds. When playing with other instruments, dry is often more
appropriate. Or quite shallow tuning, but you don't get that from the
factory on cheap instruments.
--
David Kastrup
Peter
writes
Stamped Gerpr�fht or similar. Two numbers 9 and 0015?? Just wondering if
Hohner had really made fewer than 1600 of these by 2004 when mine was
said to be made.
For, say, racing dinghies or vintage cars there is very often an owners'
club or class association which keeps records of individual items. By
useful to have such for instruments, but I'd be very surprised to find
one. Be useful if Hohner could tells us how the serial numbers work,
though.
Otherwise, in general terms, Hohners are said to improve in tone with
use. An example - forget which type - which had been 'well Morrissed'
for some decades sounded very mellow indeed. Mine had been owned for
about four years by a couple of people who successively had failed to
get anywhere with it. It was pretty much mint when I got it, felt very
stiff and now seems to be looser and more pleasant to play. Could be
changes in me, learning from scratch, of course.
I think Chinese manufacturing can be very good indeed. I have a Yamaha
guitar which I think was made there. Very good to play and very good
value. Specifications and quality control presumably very tightly
controlled by Yamaha from Japan. Conversely, I walked past a probably
Chinese motor-scooter, Hyosung, I think ,this week which was two years
old and had more rust than I'd have expected.
[1] Technically a Hohner Vienna 114 in D/G
--
Peter
Ike Milligan
"Peter" <pe...@double.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:RdVFmgP8...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
> In article <87aaxxn...@lola.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org>
> writes
>>James <jmsurp...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> For what its worth I just 'downgraded' from a ginormous old Titano
>>> Parade model to a Hohner Bravo 72, made in China. I like the compact
>>> size, that it didn't break the bank, and the sound is plenty decent
>>> enough - especially on the wet registers. I never played much, but am
>>> playing more with the Bravo.
>>>
>>> I knew it was Chinese made when I got it, but it was a 'good fit' for
>>> my current relationship with music-making.
>>
>>Well, it beats Chinese made with Chinese quality control and knowhow
>><URL:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbieIBCNFrI>.
>>
>>Anyway, for me it is important that the sound is decent enough on single
>>reeds. When playing with other instruments, dry is often more
>>appropriate. Or quite shallow tuning, but you don't get that from the
>>factory on cheap instruments.
>>
> <takes fascia plate off Pokerwork melodeon [1] and peers inside>
>
> Stamped Gerpr�fht or similar. Two numbers 9 and 0015?? Just wondering if
> Hohner had really made fewer than 1600 of these by 2004 when mine was said
> to be made.
>
>
>
> I think Chinese manufacturing can be very good indeed. I have a Yamaha
> guitar which I think was made there. Very good to play and very good
> value. Specifications and quality control presumably very tightly
> controlled by Yamaha from Japan. Conversely, I walked past a probably
> Chinese motor-scooter, Hyosung, I think ,this week which was two years old
> and had more rust than I'd have expected.
>
>
>
animal.
If someone is satisfied with a Chinese made accordion I don't argue. That's
his business.
Having seen accordions made over the generations in various countires,
however, I can tell you that the quality has steadily gone down for 70
years. The low point is Chinese-made accordions. I don't see any point in
"beating a dead horse".
You want to defend them in this thread, I will have no further comment.
Ike Milligan
"Peter" <pe...@double.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:RdVFmgP8...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
> writes
>>James <jmsurp...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
> Otherwise, in general terms, Hohners are said to improve in tone with use.
> An example - forget which type - which had been 'well Morrissed' for some
> decades sounded very mellow indeed. Mine had been owned for about four
> years by a couple of people who successively had failed to get anywhere
> with it. It was pretty much mint when I got it, felt very stiff and now
> seems to be looser and more pleasant to play. Could be changes in me,
> learning from scratch, of course.
>
>
The bellows can get looser and easier to mover as the folds spread.
Other than that, there is nothing about age I have ever heard of or
experienced that improves an accordion. Theoretically it coiuld have been
badly tuned and the reeds smoehow got more in tuned by changing at random.
3 billion monkeys will eventually type the complete works of Shakespeare,
with no typographical errors, if given an eternity.
David Kastrup
> "Peter" <pe...@double.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:RdVFmgP8...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> I think Chinese manufacturing can be very good indeed. I have a
>> Yamaha guitar which I think was made there. Very good to play and
>> very good value. Specifications and quality control presumably very
>> tightly controlled by Yamaha from Japan. Conversely, I walked past a
>> probably Chinese motor-scooter, Hyosung, I think ,this week which
>> was two years old and had more rust than I'd have expected.
>>
>>
>>
> You now what? This is a squeezebox NG. SoYamaha guitars are a
> different animal.
I would think that quality control and manufacturing management from
Japan was a somewhat less complex issue.
Also it might make a difference that in the case of Yamaha, company
ownership is in Japan, in the case of Hohner, in China itself.
> If someone is satisfied with a Chinese made accordion I don't
> argue. That's his business.
I know that with string instruments, Chinese masters with European
education are quite competitive both in price and quality with
mass-produced violins from the early 1900, so that it becomes
increasingly non-interesting to let the latter instruments be
refurbished.
Interestingly, those mass production string instruments were mostly done
near Marktneukirchen, rather close to the Weltmeister factories. The
area is also known as "Musikwinkel", "music corner".
> Having seen accordions made over the generations in various countires,
> however, I can tell you that the quality has steadily gone down for 70
> years. The low point is Chinese-made accordions. I don't see any point
> in "beating a dead horse". You want to defend them in this thread, I
> will have no further comment.
It's not exactly a "low point" since Chinese-made accordions are
improving. The Chinese work culture does not honor the craftsman in a
degree as was traditional over here. And cheap workers in mass
production may improve the quality of their handiwork over time, while
cheap machines in mass production mostly go downhill from their initial
quality.
So I think that the chances for high-quality violins from China (even if
it is just a small quota of the embarrasing total) are better than for
high-quality accordions.
--
David Kastrup
David Kastrup
> "Peter" <pe...@double.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:RdVFmgP8...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <87aaxxn...@lola.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup
>> <d...@gnu.org> writes
>>>James <jmsurp...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
> <...>
>
>> Otherwise, in general terms, Hohners are said to improve in tone with
>> use. An example - forget which type - which had been 'well Morrissed'
>> for some decades sounded very mellow indeed. Mine had been owned for
>> about four years by a couple of people who successively had failed to
>> get anywhere with it. It was pretty much mint when I got it, felt
>> very stiff and now seems to be looser and more pleasant to
>> play. Could be changes in me, learning from scratch, of course.
>>
> The bellows can get looser and easier to mover as the folds spread.
> Other than that, there is nothing about age I have ever heard of or
> experienced that improves an accordion.
If you take a factory-tuned accordion, and an accordion played for three
years and retuned and serviced, the latter is quite more likely to hold
pitch for a long time and not to develop sticking valves and stuff.
And if the instrument is 20 years old and in good order, chances are
that you won't get bad surprises with insufficiently aged or
inappropriate wood that changes over time.
--
David Kastrup