How much does a singer bring to a lyric?
Peggy Bertsch
: Sylvia Tyson just wrote a book about songwriters and songwriting,
: and in a recent interview she said she -- and many other artists
: -- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" too good, ie.
: too real, too painful. She said it was like peeking into
: someone's life. Some song, I thought, not having heard it. So I
: tracked down the lyric (no copyright info or credits on the lyric
: server):
This song was written by two Nashville writers, Mike Reid and Allen Shamblin.
: <lyric deleted >
: Bonnie's inimical hurtin'-but-hangin'-in delivery must bring a
: hell of a lot to this song, because on their own, the lyrics
: strike me as okay, but nothing special. They're contradictory...
: She asks him to hold her close (even though she knows he doesn't
: love her); at the same time saying "Don't patronize me."
: The hour/power rhyme is kinda lame.
: And the character is just a tad pathetic.
: ...
: Thoughts?
I think it's true that this is a case where it's how the lyric and music
work together on this song that make it special. Mike Reid, who had his
own brief country artist career after establishing himself as a great
writer (and later decided to forego the demands of the artist's life in favor
of the more stay-at-home life of the songwriter), is (IMO) an especially
talented music and melody writer (taking nothing away from his lyrics...you
gotta remember that Mike was an All-Pro defensive lineman for the Bengals
before becoming a songwriter, so *I'm* certainly not going to say anything
that might be taken the wrong way!! :-)
Allen Shamblin -- lyrically and musically -- writes songs that are very simple
and direct, but he often manages to pack a lot of emotion into his lyrics.
I've also heard *him* sing this song -- and he's no Bonnie Raitt :-) -- but
there's something about his simple, heartfelt delivery that grabs you.
I admit that I heard (and loved) Bonnie's version first, before I ever heard
Allen (or Mike, who also does a killer job on it) do it.
I heard some interesting stuff about this song -- about how a lot of LA,
pop/AC industry types thought this lyric was *so* different, when really, it's
kind of a typical Nashville country lyric, emotionally. Some of it *is* simple
(or "lame", as you put it), but there are also some lines that have
a lot of emotional power (IMO), like the first few (Turn down the lights/Turn
down the bed/Turn down these voices inside my head) and I'll close my eyes/
Then I won't see/The love you don't feel when you're holding me. I think
that's why the less memorable stuff works...it's offset by the lines that
punch you in the stomach. (That's how it got *me*).
The way I heard it, Mike and Allen started writing this song after reading a
newspaper story about a man who had lost his job, home, etc. and was living
under a bridge or something, when his estranged wife filed for divorce. He
was at the courthouse talking to a reporter about all of his woes, and he
said "I can't make her love me if she don't"...they started with that line
and went from there.
--peg
@the-fix.sos.on.ca Vic Michener
and in a recent interview she said she -- and many other artists
-- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" too good, ie.
too real, too painful. She said it was like peeking into
someone's life. Some song, I thought, not having heard it. So I
tracked down the lyric (no copyright info or credits on the lyric
server):
I Can't Make You Love Me
Bonnie Raitt
Turn down the lights, turn down the bed
Turn down these voices inside my head
Lay down with me, tell me no lies
Just hold me close, don't patronize - don't patronize me
Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't
I'll close my eyes, then I won't see
The love you don't feel when you're holding me
Morning will come and I'll do what's right
Just give me till then to give up this fight
And I will give up this fight
Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dar, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't
***
Bonnie's inimical hurtin'-but-hangin'-in delivery must bring a
hell of a lot to this song, because on their own, the lyrics
strike me as okay, but nothing special. They're contradictory...
She asks him to hold her close (even though she knows he doesn't
love her); at the same time saying "Don't patronize me."
The hour/power rhyme is kinda lame.
And the character is just a tad pathetic.
I suspect what's happened to these songwriters (the ones who
found it too painful) is what happens to most of us as listeners.
You don't pay attention to every word that songwriters sweat and
slave over; you take the basic idea (unrequited love) and project
a whole bunch of your own emotional history on it.
Bonnie could probably just sing the first two lines of the chorus
twenty times and make it work for a sizeable audience.
Thoughts?
Vic
AFC PeterS
> Sylvia Tyson just wrote a book about songwriters and
> songwriting, and in a recent interview she said she -- and
> many other artists -- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You
> Love Me" too good, ie., too real, too painful. She said it was
> like peeking into someone's life. Some song, I thought, not
> having heard it. So I tracked down the lyric (no copyright
> info or credits on the lyric server)...
M. Reid/A. Shamblin
(c) 1991 Almo Music Corp./Brio Blues Music/Hayes Street Music, Inc.
(ASCAP)
> Bonnie's inimical hurtin'-but-hangin'-in delivery must bring a
> hell of a lot to this song, because on their own, the lyrics
> strike me as okay, but nothing special. They're
> contradictory... She asks him to hold her close (even though
> she knows he doesn't love her); at the same time saying "Don't
> patronize me."
>
> The hour/power rhyme is kinda lame.
>
> And the character is just a tad pathetic.
>
> I suspect what's happened to these songwriters (the ones who
> found it too painful) is what happens to most of us as
> listeners. You don't pay attention to every word that
> songwriters sweat and slave over; you take the basic idea
> (unrequited love) and project a whole bunch of your own
> emotional history on it.
>
> Bonnie could probably just sing the first two lines of the
> chorus twenty times and make it work for a sizeable audience.
>
> Thoughts?
I'm inclined to think you've missed the boat by a lifetime, but I'll chalk
it up to different strokes. Bonnie's delivery is perfection, but I
wouldn't credit it with saving the song; this is one of the finest songs
I've heard in recent memory.
First, there is nothing contradictory about wanting to be held close (and
more) one last time by a man who doesn't love you, yet not wanting to be
patronized. The intricacies of human relationships are significantly more
complex than that.
Second, there's a distinction to be made between pathos and pathetic. This
character is caught in a no-win situation: she's in love with a lover who
is not - and never will be - in love with her. Not only can she not make
him love her (the attempt to do that *would* be pathetic), but there is an
unstated yet clear corollary: she cannot make herself not love him. She is
no fool; she recognizes the predicament and knows the only solution is to
get out. All she wants is one more night of intimacy before she surrenders
to the inevitable. It's not much to ask, and it's handled with as much
dignity and grace as any of us might muster in the same situation (and
many of us have been there). She is as far from pathetic as she could be -
closer to heroic in the face of one of life's every-day tragedies.
Of course both writers and listeners project their own emotional history
on the song. This nearly always happens with good songs, and is even a
mark of how successful the song is that it gets so many people to do it.
That this song has turned so many writers back into listeners is a further
mark of its success; it's hard to get past the analytical, "I could've
done that better" part of a songwriter's mind. But this song doesn't do it
on the strength of the basic idea alone. Indeed, it succeeds *because* of
the way the writers sweated over every word, yet make every word seem
effortless, right and true. I hear very few songs where I wouldn't change
a word or a note. "I Can't Make You Love Me" is one of them. However, I
would be remiss if I did not correct one word in the version you posted.
You have:
> Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
> I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
The actual lyric is:
> Here in the dark, in these final hours
> I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
FWIW, I also think this rhyme is anything but lame.
Before you write this song off, listen to the record - not only for
Raitt's performance, but for the marriage of these lyrics to the melody. A
song is both music and lyrics, after all, and few songs combine those
elements as well as this one does. If you still don't get it...well, I'd
sure be curious to hear what you think is a brilliant song.
Peter Stoller
Irene Jackson
impact of this song. It may have some weak lyrical moments, but then
again a movie can have its weak moments and still have you walking away
from it feeling like you've just been through a tornado!
This, for me, was one of those rare songs that sent shivers up my
spine...I think it had to do with Bonnie's delivery, but I also think
Bruce Hornsby's amazing performance on it did alot, too. I also heard
the writer of this song (I forget his name!!!) perform it, and it did the
same for me. So, there's one more argument for a song standing on it's
own feet!
Irene Jackson
MHHughey
Go get a recording of the song. It was written by Mike Reid & Alan
Shamblain (sp?). Bonnie Raitt may bring something special to it, but it's
a great song. Some stuff just "works" and some doesn't. Maybe prosody or
whatever, but this one is worth hearing instead of guessing by reading the
lyrics. I can't help but hear that song when reading the lyric only, so
to me, it reads well also, but it does point to one of the main problems
we have here (hear) discussing lyrics only without a clue to the music.
That being said, there is usually enough to say about the lyrics only as
they are posted.
The above paragraph indentations are for SongDoc<g>.
Mark
Mark Hughey
JLizKenn
brings to a song -- I've never yet heard a bad singer wreck
his or her own good song because of a weak voice, limited
instrumental ability or tin ear. Other bad singers, yes, but
not the good song's own writer. I believe if it's a good song, the
song's own writer can put it over regardless, and I think I've
yet to hear the exception.
SongDoc
>The above paragraph indentations are for SongDoc<g>.
<smile> hey buddy... no need to indent.
a space will do fine.
how's the writing going?
peace, amigo!
don
@the-fix.sos.on.ca Vic Michener
>Before you write this song off, listen to the record - not only for
>Raitt's performance, but for the marriage of these lyrics to the melody. A
>song is both music and lyrics, after all, and few songs combine those
>elements as well as this one does. If you still don't get it...well, I'd
>sure be curious to hear what you think is a brilliant song.
>
>Peter Stoller
Your interpretation brings a lot to the lyric, and I can almost
begin to imagine how the recorded version works.
But that was the point I was trying to make. By no means was I
writing off the song, and I fully expected to be moved by the
recorded version (now I've *gotta* hear it).
But on its own, the lyric didn't reach up and yank my heart
strings, or send even a trace of the shiver the recorded version
probably will.
Bonnie's voice invests the character with -- well, character --
from the first word, whereas the lyric on its own doesn't.
This may account for our different readings of the character. I
hadn't connected to the singer, so my initial response to the
lyric was less emotional than analytical: "This person should get
on with it... Don't ask the guy to pretend -- because that's
what she's doing -- even if it's only for a night." (Of course,
I can understand her motivations... Actually it reminds of a
title I once played with: "Don't wake me in the morning"...
about a guy knowing a girl's leaving him the next morning, but
wanting to continue to pretend as long as possible.)
Obviously a song is a magic blend of various ingredients. I
guess I wondered if people -- songwriters particularly -- would
have responded as strongly to the lyric on its own. I didn't.
Sounds like you would have.
To me, as a lyricist who doesn't write music, this points up the
toughness of presenting a lyric on its own: as much as you can
hear the full emotion in your internal rendition, until it's
complete, others may not recognize its full potential.
Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but thought it might make for
some interesting discussion.
Vic
P.S. The word "final" in the chorus makes a big difference.
Doug Sprei
the-fix.sos.on.ca> wrote:
> Sylvia Tyson just wrote a book about songwriters and songwriting,
> and in a recent interview she said she -- and many other artists
> -- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" too good, ie.
> too real, too painful. She said it was like peeking into
> someone's life. Some song, I thought, not having heard it. So I
> tracked down the lyric (no copyright info or credits on the lyric
> server):
>
>(lyrics snipped)
>
> Bonnie's inimical hurtin'-but-hangin'-in delivery must bring a
> hell of a lot to this song, because on their own, the lyrics
> strike me as okay, but nothing special.
I loved this song the first time I heard it. It's so genuine. . .such that
any attempt to analyze the lyrical or musical components on their own
seems like a waste of effort.
Judging a song by lyrics on paper is a bit like evaluating a home solely
by the architectural plans. You're cut off from a sense of design
treatments, lighting, colors, landscaping, the atmosphere of the home; you
don't know what it would be like to live there.
In college English, our four-inch thick literature textbook included "Mr.
Tamborine Man" and a couple of other Bob Dylan songs among the great
poetry of the ages. Obviously, some lyrics stand up nicely on their own
as poetry.
Rare songs like this one stand up because of their marriage of words,
phrasing, music, and sincerety. I don't know if another female singer
could invest more genuine emotion into this tune than Bonnie does, but I'm
sure there are some who could bring it to life very well.
Doug Sprei
Thomas Baldwin
The music and the words are supposed to work together to say something. Yes,
you can have lyrics which are so strong on their own that they work well on
paper, just like you can also have a piece of music which is equally
evocative. But in most cases the two "cooperate" to create the effect.
I did wonder about posting some of my lyrics here for comment, but I was
dubious 'cos the music is my strong point, not so much the words.
In short, to judge a song as a means of communicating I think you really
need the music too.
FWIW,
Tom Baldwin
trm...@ibm.net
limitations that exist when only the lyric is available. I side with the
argument that a song is more than just the lyrics. While I tend to be
drawn to songs that are strong lyrically, my view is that a song, by
definition is both lyrics AND music. It's the package that sells.
Recently I've begun to wonder if a better method of sharing songs for
analysis might be to convert a simple "songwriter's demo" to a .WAV
file, uuencode it and upload two messages: one with the lyric and the
adjoining one with the uuencoded demo. For folks that want both this
could be a solution.
What do y'all think?
thom
Peggy Bertsch
: Recently I've begun to wonder if a better method of sharing songs for
: analysis might be to convert a simple "songwriter's demo" to a .WAV
: file, uuencode it and upload two messages: one with the lyric and the
: adjoining one with the uuencoded demo. For folks that want both this
: could be a solution.
: What do y'all think?
: thom
I think, for those of you who have the necessary hardware/software/whatever-
ware to accomplish this, go for it! I don't have the necessary stuff, so
I'm dealing in a text-only environment for now. And although I whole-heartedly
agree that (in general), hearing both the lyric and music together is obviously
much better, that doesn't necessarily negate the process of critiquing a
lyric on its own. It's *harder* (IMO), but I think a lyric can be evaluated --
at least on some level -- independently of the music in such a way that is
still valid and helpful.
--peg
JEricL
>Sylvia Tyson just wrote a book about songwriters and songwriting,
>and in a recent interview she said she -- and many other artists
>-- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" too good, ie.
>too real, too painful. She said it was like peeking into
>someone's life. Some song, I thought, not having heard it. So I
>tracked down the lyric (no copyright info or credits on the lyric
>server):
I was at a sontwriting seminar when this song was out on the radio. Hugh
Prestwood, one of the most respected songwriters around commented on how
good this song was.
I guess it's a good example of how important the "words and music"
together are. I agree that the lyrics, read by themselves, without the
music, don't come close to foretelling the impact the song has with music.
It's obvious that a lot of great ears like this song.
Eric
JEricL
Bertsch) writes:
> heard some interesting stuff about this song -- about how a lot of LA,
>pop/AC industry types thought this lyric was *so* different, when really,
>it's
>kind of a typical Nashville country lyric, emotionally.
I heard Hugh Prestwood say the same thing about this song. That is was
different. The idea had not been written as far as he knew.
Eric
JEricL
the-fix.sos.on.ca> writes:
>To me, as a lyricist who doesn't write music, this points up the
>toughness of presenting a lyric on its own: as much as you can
>hear the full emotion in your internal rendition, until it's
>complete, others may not recognize its full potential.
>
>Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but thought it mig
Vic,
I actually see your point about judging lyrics on their own. And I think
this song shows how important the combination of words and music is.
This lyric does not read like a Paul Simon, or Stephen Songheim lyric. It
is so, conversational, and "ordinary" in a way, that without the music, I
can see how it might not blow your hat in the creek.
I think the discussion here shows the importance of the "X" factor in
artistic pursuits. There are some things that just "work". They defy
analysis, they just work. I think "I Can't Make You Love Me" is a good
example of a song that "works", but when you start analyzing, it doesn't
seem remarkable.
Eric
Seth Jackson
>Recently I've begun to wonder if a better method of sharing songs for
>analysis might be to convert a simple "songwriter's demo" to a .WAV
>file, uuencode it and upload two messages: one with the lyric and the
>adjoining one with the uuencoded demo. For folks that want both this
>could be a solution.
>What do y'all think?
I think the concept is good, but in practice, the technology isn't
there yet. It would take so much time and effort for someone to
download and prepare your song for playback that there probably
wouldn't be a lot of us willing to do that very often, assuming we
even had the right hardware and software.
Also, posting binaries to discussion newsgroups like this is frowned
upon. If you provided a Web page from which to download, that would be
fine, or if there were enough demand, a separate newsgroup could be
established for this purpose.
--
Seth Jackson
Seth Jackson's Songwriting Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/speaker
The Online Home of "Country Notes" for Los Angeles area songwriters
Lianne McNeil
I'm beginning to notice that about a lot of great songs. Someone who I
admire as a songwriter is Steve Earle. So, I decided to copy down his
lyrics, to see what I could learn from his songwriting techniques.
What I discovered is that some of his best songs say things so simply, so
ordinarily... Here is an example:
(transcribed while listening to the song, so any mistakes are probably mine.)
Just when every ray of hope was gone
I should have known that you would come along
I can't believe I ever doubted you
My old friend the blues.
Another lonely night in a nameless town
If sleep don't take me first, you'll come around
I know that I can always count on you
My old friend the blues.
CHORUS:
Lovers leave and friends will let you down
But you're the only sure thing that I've found
No matter what I do I'll never lose
My old friend the blues.
(repeat CHO.)
Just let me hide my weary heart in you
My old friend the blues.
(copyright 1986 Steve Earle)
Just reading it, it doesn't seem so profound. But when I hear the song,
the music, plus Steve's slightly rusty sounding voice, it sends tingles
down my spine.
Lianne
--
+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+
Lianne or Jim McNeil jam...@hevanet.com
A stranger is a hidden friend. (Unknown)
Lianne McNeil
>In article <4crqgn$6...@nic.wat.hookup.net>, Vic Michener <VMichener @
>the-fix.sos.on.ca> writes:
>>Sylvia Tyson just wrote a book about songwriters and songwriting,
>>and in a recent interview she said she -- and many other artists
>>-- found Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" too good, ie.
>>too real, too painful. She said it was like peeking into
>>someone's life. Some song, I thought, not having heard it. So I
>>tracked down the lyric (no copyright info or credits on the lyric
>>server):
I've been following this thread, but my server apparently cheated me out
of some of these postings... forgive me if I duplicate something that
someone else may have already said.
Just in case you didn't find the info, Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love
Me" was written by Mike Reid and Allen Shamblin. This duo also wrote a
song, "In This Life," that was sung by country artist, Collin Raye, and
has also been well-recieved. (I am keeping my eyes on Reid and
Shamblin! They've written plenty of songs without as much impact, but
they do seem to have a chemistry going for songwriting.)
I believe that in the case of Bonnie Raitt, a lot of the impact of the
song has to do with Bonnie putting her emotions into it. She sings it
with such feeling that it makes her weep while singing. (Or at least, at
her concert I attended last summer, she did.) However, the song is great
on its own, too. I have a copy of Mike Reid's version on an album he
released. And the song is pretty good on it, too, though Mike's singing
doesn't appeal to me as well as some other singers'.
>I guess it's a good example of how important the "words and music"
>together are. I agree that the lyrics, read by themselves, without the
>music, don't come close to foretelling the impact the song has with music.
Yes. And it also shows what a singer can bring to a song, too.
Christopher Clulow
<spe...@cinenet.net> writes
music only but contain words which can be read. The lead instrument
plays the melody so you can follow the words as the writer intended. I
am assured that it is possbile to include voice but it takes a lot of
memory and I havn't worked out how to do it yet. And, believe me, you
would not want to hear my voice.
So, in theory, a complete song can be sent. I have received several at a
time, zipped to save time in downloading.
Of course you need Cakewalk (a wonderful piece of music creation
software) and a good soundcard inside your computer.
The problem is that the stuff I receive is so much better than the stuff
I produce which makes me feel a bit hopeless sometimes. However, the
upside is that is helps you improve.
nb. The files can be MIDI or wrk (the cakewlak extension, nothing to do
with Lotus)
Christopher Clulow
DanTheBand
Vince Gill, for one, doesn't exactly burn a hole in my soul lyrically.
However, the fact that this man could sing the phone book and pull it off
speaks volumes for the combination of elements that make a record good.
Dylan's performances sounds like a harmonica falling down a flight of
stairs, but the lyrics paint pictures so vivid it works anyway.