parental worries.....
Ferasong
el zorro wrote:
>hello..
>My son is getting to the age of trying to carve a career for himself and he
>is set on songwriting and wants to do it no matter what i say to him.He
>seems keen and from what i've heard he is very good.however, i have always
>thought this was an extremely risky buisness as far as making any money and
>i don't want him to end up wasting time and getting no-where.Like any
>parent this is a big worry as we want to support him as best we can. So i
>am writing to this newsgroup in the hope of any comments that may help, for
>example is it really an acheivable goal for newcomers to sell songs for
>good money? to do it for a living? how much can writers expect to earn from
>'selling' songs?
>Thanks for any help.obviously i don't want to stifle creativity but i don't
>want to let him waste his life either.
>Thanks
>Dave. U
A life is a long time. Many people have multiple careers, including some
writing, during their lives. A wasted life is something that happens when you
don't do something you felt you really wanted to do.
Successful songwriters, judging from the few I've known and more that I've
heard about, often are working at a job (or going to school) while they are
writing. The difficult thing about it is that songwriting takes a while to
learn and practice (some say about 5 years) until anything starts happening,
and during those years it's tough to have all the energy and time to devote to
work and writing, or school and writing. But, I say, So freaking what?
Anyone who really wants to do something will find the energy and time. Look
at yourself. Having a kid wasn't easy-- it took a lot of time and a lot of
energy to keep going with your job and raising your son. But you found the
time and the energy, even when you thought there was none left sometimes.
That's how it is when you really want to do something-- you find the time and
energy.
Writing quality songs isn't easy, and maintaining the career contacts to
sustain an income from writing is hard, too. That doesn't mean it's
impossible. If you're needing some helpful thing to say to him to ensure he
has career options other than writing, you might consider talking about how
it's possible to learn how to write, and to get life experience, while in
school or working. It doesn't matter how long it takes to learn to write, or
to make good contacts. What really matters is the quality of the writing,
whether it takes 3 years until the first song gets recorded or 20 years.
Don't worry about stifling creativity. Worry about forcing your values on him.
Writing might be a big mistake. I find that my mistakes are whatever things
didn't work out for me, then I call them "mistakes" after the fact. When
things work out, I call them successes. The things and events are the things
and events. Only the names change (mistake/success) depending on whether they
get me money, or health, or the girl, or whatever. Trust him to make a good
life for himself and to call his "mistakes" as HE sees them.
Just call me Dear Abby...
or
Ezell Harding
"The trouble with the truth is it's always the same old thing"--G. Nicholson
exm...@worldnet.att.net
elzorro wrote:
>
> hello..
> My son is getting to the age of trying to carve a career for himself and he
> is set on songwriting and wants to do it no matter what i say to him.He
> seems keen and from what i've heard he is very good.however, i have always
> thought this was an extremely risky buisness as far as making any money and
> i don't want him to end up wasting time and getting no-where.Like any
> parent this is a big worry as we want to support him as best we can. So i
> am writing to this newsgroup in the hope of any comments that may help, for
> example is it really an acheivable goal for newcomers to sell songs for
> good money? to do it for a living? how much can writers expect to earn from
> 'selling' songs?
> Thanks for any help.obviously i don't want to stifle creativity but i don't
> want to let him waste his life either.
> Thanks
> Dave. U
I think it's irrelevent how other writers fare in the music business.
If your child
has a passion for songwriting(music)let him go with it and see where it
takes him.
If you stifle or discourage him you will most likely alienate him which
could wind up
working against you.
Li'l Hank
In article <3460DB...@shocking.com>, JAS <*NO*SPAM*j...@shocking.com> wrote:
> The only problem with the career of songwriting, is that there is no training
> wage, or apprentice system, so he has to do SOMETHING to buy food. I
continued
> to go to college, though I was certain my band and my music would take
off. We
> did have some success playing (College towns are great for that). Actually, I
> paid for most of my school needs by playing.
>
> I don't think writing music is something you stop everything for... It's
more a
> letting go of pent up emotions/ thoughts for me... and you can do that even
> when you have a day job!
This response sums it up pretty well. Beginning songwriters don't
generally sit around doing nothing while waiting for an inspiration to
write a song. Most of us need other means of generating income and I know
plenty of people who work during the day and play music in the evening. If
your son has the talent, the passion and the determination to make a living
soley as a songwriter, then eventually, he probably will. The most
omportant thing at this point is education. It doesn't necessarily have to
be formal. He can start by exploring some of the resources right here on
the net. In fact (at the risk of sounding like a shameless promotion) he
can start with my website "Li'l Hank's Guide For Songwriters" at
http://www.halsguide.com
From my links page you can find a lot of others that are equally helpful.
One last piece of advice, though: don't let him get too attached to the
computer. Hopefully, he'll eventually get out into the world and play for
live audiences. That's one of the best ways to find out if that's the
right direction for him. Of course, he may write for other artists which
does not require that he perform outside of his bedroom, but either way, it
sounds like it's in the lad's blood. If that's the case, you should
support him with all your heart, but by all means - let him find his own
way.
Creatively yours,
Hal Cohen
--
Li'l Hank's Guide For Songwriters
http://www.halsguide.com
Seth Jackson
On 5 Nov 1997 11:49:38 GMT, "elzorro" <elz...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
:hello..
:My son is getting to the age of trying to carve a career for himself and he
:is set on songwriting and wants to do it no matter what i say to him.He
:seems keen and from what i've heard he is very good.however, i have always
:thought this was an extremely risky buisness as far as making any money and
:i don't want him to end up wasting time and getting no-where.Like any
:parent this is a big worry as we want to support him as best we can. So i
:am writing to this newsgroup in the hope of any comments that may help, for
:example is it really an acheivable goal for newcomers to sell songs for
:good money? to do it for a living? how much can writers expect to earn from
:'selling' songs?
You are correct that songwriting is a very risky business. But for those of us
who want to do it as much as your son does, it would be a bigger risk *not* to
go for it. We'd be gambling that the financial security of a 9 to 5 job would
be enough to make up for the loss of our biggest dream in life. I don't like
those odds.
My guess is that your son will be like many other struggling songwriters during
the first few years. He'd find a job to get him enough money for food and rent
while he works on developing his craft and networking in the songwriting
community. He'll do that until he either becomes successful or he decides that
he needs to find another career, which may very well turn out to be some other
aspect of the music business.
I don't imagine that his pursuit of songwriting would become the cause of any
serious disaster. The real disaster would be if he were to live the rest of his
life regretting that he never gave it his best shot.
--
Seth Jackson's Songwriting and Music Business Page -
http://www.mindspring.com/~hitmeister
*Songwriting and the Music Business, plus Los Angeles "Country Notes"*
GEdwa27173
My suggestion is that people gain experience with real life before
starting to write about life as a songwriter or literary writer.
Gary A. Edwards
Gary E.
http://members.aol.com/GEdwa27173/index.html
"If you're young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're old and
not a conservative, you have no brains." Winston Churchill.
Glease
elzorro wrote:
> =
> hello..
> My son is getting to the age of trying to carve a career for himself and =
he
> is set on songwriting and wants to do it no matter what i say to him.He
> seems keen and from what i've heard he is very good.however, i have alway=
s
> thought this was an extremely risky buisness as far as making any money a=
nd
> i don't want him to end up wasting time and getting no-where.Like any
> parent this is a big worry as we want to support him as best we can. So i=
> am writing to this newsgroup in the hope of any comments that may help, f=
or
> example is it really an acheivable goal for newcomers to sell songs for
> good money? to do it for a living? how much can writers expect to earn fr=
om
> 'selling' songs?
> Thanks for any help.obviously i don't want to stifle creativity but i don=
't
> want to let him waste his life either.
> Thanks
> Dave. U
Dave,
I suspect that more than one person in this news group wishes they had expl=
ored their =
passion for music as a young person (when they are free to truly meet the c=
hallenge) rather =
than further down lifes road. I know I do. Life will still be waiting the=
re for him, should he =
decide music as a career pursuit is not the route for him. The regrets fr=
om looking back and =
wondering "What if?" are nothing I would wish on anyone. =
-- =
Sl=E1inte
Glease
=2E
Rik Shafer
Glease wrote:
>
> elzorro wrote:
> >
> > hello..
> > My son is getting to the age of trying to carve a career for himself and he
> > is set on songwriting and wants to do it no matter what i say to him.He
> > thought this was an extremely risky buisness as far as making any money and
> > i don't want him to end up wasting time and getting no-where.Like any
> > parent this is a big worry as we want to support him as best we can. So i
> > example is it really an acheivable goal for newcomers to sell songs for
> > 'selling' songs?
> > Thanks for any help.obviously i don't want to stifle creativity but i don't
> > want to let him waste his life either.
> > Thanks
> > Dave. U
>
> Dave,
> passion for music as a young person (when they are free to truly meet the challenge) rather
> than further down lifes road. I know I do. Life will still be waiting there for him, should he
> decide music as a career pursuit is not the route for him. The regrets from looking back and
> wondering "What if?" are nothing I would wish on anyone.
> Sláinte
>
> Glease
>
> .
This is an interesting thought. I agree. I played in bands for years and
years, on the road, opening for name acts,. etc, and got close... but
never "there."
Was it a waste of time? Hell, Yes.
Do I regret it? Hell, no.
What happened is I got married and had kids and decided that eating
regularly was a good thing, so used my college degree to get meaningful
work--whatever that is--and did the day gig thing for years.
Got back into music about 5 years ago, and it's just as much or more fun
now than it was way back when. I suppose the point is that life is full
of twists and turns that you can never prepare for, so you may as well
do something enjoyable as often as you can.
Like Lennon said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making other
plans."
Rik
Seth Jackson
On 6 Nov 1997 23:41:14 GMT, gedwa...@aol.com (GEdwa27173) wrote:
:My suggestion is that people gain experience with real life before
:starting to write about life as a songwriter or literary writer.
Working as a struggling musician or songwriter seems to be as good a way as any
to gain experience with real life.
Don Holmes
On Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:41:52 -0500, Nicholas Delonas
<del...@digitalsg.com> wrote:
>Don Holmes wrote:
>
>> On 6 Nov 1997 23:41:14 GMT, gedwa...@aol.com (GEdwa27173)
>> wrote:
>> >My suggestion is that people gain experience with real life before
>> >starting to write about life as a songwriter or literary writer.
>> >Gary A. Edwards
>>
>> Many, if not most, of the great geniuses of the world
>> produced their best work when they were young. Usually
>> before age 30.
>
>That's because the statistics are skewed by the fact that for most of
>human history the average life span wasn't much beyond 30. It's only in
>the last hundred years or so that people are living much longer than
>that.
That's actually not true. It's mostly AVERAGE life
expectancy that has increased. Now that most everyone makes
it out of childhood alive, the average life expectancy has
increased, but people aren't living all that much longer
than they always did. Adults routinely made it well into
their 70s, just like today.
Nicholas Delonas
Don Holmes wrote:
Well, let's look at some actual statistics, eh?
According to the book "Age Wave," by Ken Dychtwald, Ph.D. and Joe Flower
(which draws on stats done by the census bureau and from other historical
sources):
"In 1776, a child born in America could expect to live to 35, on the
average. At the founding of the Republic, the median age . . . was 16. A
century later, life expectancy was only 40, and the median age was 21." p. 4.
"The Census Bureau projects that life expectancy in 2040 will be 75 years for
men and 83 for women. The National Institute on Aging, a division of the
National Institutes of Health, projects 86 years for men and 91.5 for women.
In sum, in a little over 200 years America has experienced a doubling in the
life expectancy of its population . . . . Throughout most of recorded human
history, only one in ten people could expect to live to the age of 65.
Today, nearly 80 percent of Americans will live to be past that age." p. 6.
--
Nick Delonas
Digital Strategy Group, Inc.
http://www.digitalsg.com/art
Ferasong
Nick wrote:
>According to the book "Age Wave," by Ken Dychtwald, Ph.D. and Joe Flower
>(which draws on stats done by the census bureau and from other historical
>sources):
>
>"In 1776, a child born in America could expect to live to 35, on the
>average. At the founding of the Republic, the median age . . . was 16. A
>century later, life expectancy was only 40, and the median age was 21." p. 4.
Interesting stuff. Do you think that the average life expectancy in 1776 was
dragged down by infant death rate? Was infant mortality higher than it is
today, and if it was, could that explain a lower average life expectancy?
What I imagine happening is that when we average in the age-at-deaths of seven
children who died at 2 with the ages of seven adults who died at 70, the
average life expectancy is 36. Due to relatively poor pediatric care, the
infant death rate could have been higher, and that would pull the average life
expectancy down. I wonder if there's any way to control for that. Are there
any average-age-of-death stats on those who made it past childhood in the
1700's?
Sorry for being such a stats head about it. I guess we're getting a little far
afield of songwriting. But it's too damn fascinating, if ya ask me.
Nicholas Delonas
Don Holmes wrote:
> Nick,
>
> Yes, AVERAGE life expectancy has increased. That's what I
> said. What was your point exactly?
Yeah, by a lot.
My point was that you cannot use the fact that most great works were produced by
artists when they were young to support the idea that creativity dissipates with
age. The statistics are obviously skewed by the fact that until quite recently
most people didn't live that long.
Now if you happen to know of research on creativity that controls life-expectancy
issues, I'd sure like to see the reference. Otherwise the assertion that people
lose creativity with age is baseless opinion.
I certainly can't think of any neurological factors that would affect adult
creativity absent a specific disease process.
Don Holmes
>Don Holmes wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> Yes, AVERAGE life expectancy has increased. That's what I
>> said. What was your point exactly?
>
> Yeah, by a lot.
>
>My point was that you cannot use the fact that most great works were produced by
>artists when they were young to support the idea that creativity dissipates with
>age. The statistics are obviously skewed by the fact that until quite recently
>most people didn't live that long.
>
My point is that AVERAGE age is meaningless in this
discussion. Average age has to do with the average lifespan
of everyone born. Those stats are skewed by childhood
deaths that used to plague civilization but no longer do
(thanks to antibiotics introduced near the turn of the 20th
century). People who made it OUT of childhood (in other
words, people who might contribute artistically to society)
have routinely lived into their 70s for at least the last
300 years. Just look up some biographies of famous people.
If you still like this AVERAGE statistic, why don't you
re-calculate current average age by factoring in birth
control and abortion? Maybe you'll be able to demostrate
that you statistically died 5 years ago!
>Now if you happen to know of research on creativity that controls life-expectancy
>issues, I'd sure like to see the reference. Otherwise the assertion that people
>lose creativity with age is baseless opinion.
I don't know of any research, but you just have to look
around you. Since you don't want to look at historical
figures because of the average age question, look at
contemporary ones. How many are writing BETTER in their 40s
or 50s than they were in their 20 or 30s? Most all are
writing worse.
Albert Einstein was in his 20's when he came up with the
theory of relativity. He lived a long ways past that, but
it was only in his 20s that he was able to make his big
breakthrough.
>I certainly can't think of any neurological factors that would affect adult
>creativity absent a specific disease process.
Don't you think overall health and energy level has anything
to do with creativey? Not to mention youth's enthusiasm and
its characteristically "unrealistic" attitude towards what
can and can't be done? How many 45-year-olds do you know who
are burning with a passion to change the world? It's a
young person's game. You will never have as much energy,
drive and passion as you did when you were at your
physioligical peak, and you will likely never be as open to
new possibilities as you were when you were young.
Hopefully, there are mental qualities you have now that you
hadn't developed back then. Perhaps judgment, persistence,
patience, determination ... and some stories worth telling.
Nicholas Delonas
Ferasong wrote:
It is interesting stuff.
I do not have specific statistics to answer your insightful questions, but my guess
is that a bell curve on the age at death would probably be close to normal though
perhaps left-skewed just a tad by infant mortality.
I have no doubt that infant mortality was much higher in 1776. Birth rate was also
much higher.
Keep in mind that we've conquered (at least temporarily) many adult killers like
smallpox. Pneumonia and influenza are no longer fatal. Other killer diseases we
now have under control in the first world include cholera, tuberculosis, measles,
streptococcus, whooping cough, syphilis, typhoid, bubonic plague and diphtheria.
These collectively killed great numbers of people in the past.
Here is one interesting statistic from the Age Wave book (which I recommend reading
if you find this stuff interesting): "two thirds of all the men and women who have
lived beyond the age of 65 in the entire history of the world are alive today." p.
6.
Though the fact that the *median* age in 1776 was only 16 says a lot. The census
bureau predicts a median age of 45 by 2030. Many demographers consider that to be
conservative and believe that the median age will reach 50 in the first half of the
next century.
My only point is that if you're young and wringing your hands over the worry that
you'll lose your creativity in a few years, stop worrying. Be happy. All you'll
lose are those rippling abs, and even that's not a certainty (though more likely
than losing your creativity).
OTOH, death itself does tend to dampen creative output.
Nicholas Delonas
Don Holmes wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:35:57 -0500, Nicholas Delonas
> My point is that AVERAGE age is meaningless in this
> discussion. Average age has to do with the average lifespan
> of everyone born. Those stats are skewed by childhood
> deaths that used to plague civilization but no longer do
> (thanks to antibiotics introduced near the turn of the 20th
> century).
Antibiotics also control adult diseases. The median age in 1776 was 16. The median
age now is more than double that. There may be some skewing of the curve toward the
left, but I doubt it's anywhere near as significant as you speculate.
> People who made it OUT of childhood (in other
> words, people who might contribute artistically to society)
> have routinely lived into their 70s for at least the last
> 300 years. Just look up some biographies of famous people.
> If you still like this AVERAGE statistic, why don't you
> re-calculate current average age by factoring in birth
> control and abortion? Maybe you'll be able to demostrate
> that you statistically died 5 years ago!
>
> >Now if you happen to know of research on creativity that controls life-expectancy
> >issues, I'd sure like to see the reference. Otherwise the assertion that people
> >lose creativity with age is baseless opinion.
>
> I don't know of any research, but you just have to look
> around you.
Meaningless.
> Since you don't want to look at historical
> figures because of the average age question, look at
> contemporary ones.
I do look at historical figures. I've mentioned them.
> How many are writing BETTER in their 40s
> or 50s than they were in their 20 or 30s? Most all are
> writing worse.
Really?
>
>
> Albert Einstein was in his 20's when he came up with the
> theory of relativity. He lived a long ways past that, but
> it was only in his 20s that he was able to make his big
> breakthrough.
>
> >I certainly can't think of any neurological factors that would affect adult
> >creativity absent a specific disease process.
>
> Don't you think overall health and energy level has anything
> to do with creativey?
There is no significant deterioration of health and energy during normal aging.
> Not to mention youth's enthusiasm and
> its characteristically "unrealistic" attitude towards what
> can and can't be done? How many 45-year-olds do you know who
> are burning with a passion to change the world?
I didn't say people don't change as they get older. They certainly do. They become
wiser. They do not become less creative.
> It's a
> young person's game. You will never have as much energy,
> drive and passion as you did when you were at your
> physioligical peak, and you will likely never be as open to
> new possibilities as you were when you were young.
>
> Hopefully, there are mental qualities you have now that you
> hadn't developed back then. Perhaps judgment, persistence,
> patience, determination ... and some stories worth telling.
Don, I don't want to get harsh with you. But there is no evidence what-so-ever that
creativity decreases with age. I do not understand why you or anyone would wish to
defend this prejudice.
You want me to look around me. It's statistically meaningless, but alright.
I have grown up with people who were unbelievably creative when they were in their
early twenties. Guess what. They're still unbelievably creative.
I hope that you are open minded because here are some facts:
Only ten percent of people over the age of 65 show any significant loss of memory and
of those only half (that's 5%) show any serious mental impairment.
The notion that creativity dissipates with age probably started with the psychologist
George Beard who reported as much in a popular book titled "American Nervousness"
around the turn of the century. Beard's work has since been completely discredited in
the scientific community.
Again quoting Dr. Dychtwald: "It is now recognized that in the absence of specific
neurological diseases, aging by itself produces no diminution *whatsoever* in mental
acuity until well into the seventies, on the average. From that point on, the only
drop in mental functioning that can be attributed to the aging process itself is an
inconvenient, but not incapacitating, loss of short-term memory." (emphasis mine.)
Here are some more facts:
Goethe completed Faust when he was over 80. Alexander von Humboldt worked out "The
Kosmos" from ages 76 to 90. From the time he was 71 until age 89, Michelangelo
personally supervised as chief architect the creation of St. Peter's Cathedral in
Rome. During this time he also wrote much of the finest poetry of his life. George
Bernard Shaw wrote Farfetched Fables at 93. Many great musicians still give master
performances in old age. Examples include Arthur Rubenstein (90 at Carnegie Hall) and
Pablo Casals (touring at 88). George Abbott, the Broadway actor, brought his biggest
hits to broadway in later life (The Pajama Game at 67, Damn Yankees at 68, A Funny
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum at 75, and the hit revival of Broadway when he
was 100 years old).
As for young people wanting to change the world more, that also rings false to me.
People never lose their ideals and many don't lose their energy either. We do lose
some naiveté, but that's different.
Raising a family is also very tough, so middle age is accounted for. However, once
the kids are gone, many older Americans do volunteer work. According to AARP, over
30% of people over the age of 55 regularly do charitable volunteer work. Realizing
this, the Peace Corps now actively seeks older volunteers because they've had such
great success with them in the past.
In research published in the Journal of Gerontological Social Work, Dr. William Perry
found that of the elderly that did not now volunteer, 59% would like to. He wrote,
"The results of this investigation indicate that the challenge does not lie in finding
older persons willing to volunteer . . . but rather in creating volunteer roles in
which these elder persons can be channeled."
If you'd like me to cite research that shows that elderly people are just as
productive overall in this volunteer work as young people, I'd be happy to do that.
Mother Teresa did not begin the work for which she is most revered until she was
almost 40. Mahatma Gandhi is remembered and revered for work that he did in his
sixties and seventies. Albert Schweitzer was almost 50 when he rebuilt his hospital
in West Africa, which he ran until his death at 90. Henri Matisse produced some of
his very best and critically acclaimed work after the age of 75 including six
illustrated books and the masterwork of graphic art, "Jazz." He also designed
Chapelle du Rosaire.
Georgia O'Keefe did some great work in later life and there are great artists who
never even started painting until after they retired.
I'm not sure why you'd want to argue with me on any of this. First of all, I'm
right. Second of all, it's a very good thing. I'm not saying anything bad. This is
all great news. We don't all just shrivel up and die. We can go on pretty much the
way we are, intellectually, well past retirement age. Young people don't need to
sweat the passing days. If they keep working at it, their writing will get better and
better.
So if you observe an older person who doesn't write well, you can't bet your last
dollar that they didn't write well when they were young either.
At least this is what I have observed around me.
Nicholas Delonas
KIP117 wrote:
> Nick Delonas wrote:
>
> >My point was that you cannot use the fact that most great works were produced
> >by
> >artists when they were young to support the idea that creativity dissipates
> >with
> >age. The statistics are obviously skewed by the fact that until quite
> >recently
> >most people didn't live that long.
>
> I neither agree or disagree on this. But I would like to see the median age of
> death stats.
I'd like to see that too because it would determine if and by how much the curve
may be skewed. I did a search on the Net, but didn't find much.
I did find an Age Distribution graph at
http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/Life.html, which applies to
Ancient Rome. I do not know how authoritative this is, but the graph appears to be
roughly normal. That is, there is no wildly obvious skew.
> >Now if you happen to know of research on creativity that controls
> >life-expectancy
> >issues, I'd sure like to see the reference. Otherwise the assertion that
> >people
> >lose creativity with age is baseless opinion.
>
> Back in 'late '84 or early '85 I heard an interview of a man who wrote a book
> that I think was called "Through the Ages." Through literature searches and
> interviews he attempted to profile groups of people in our society based on
> their ages. The only age bracket he spoke of during the interview was the
> oldest bracket, and he was asked by the interviewer what, if any, similarities
> there were in people who are long lived.
>
> He said the defining characteristic seemed to be that people who live longer
> tend to be working on projects. They have goals with clearly defined criteria
> for completion. He gave anecdotes describing the man who promised to build
> the perfect dream cottage for his wife. The guy got started when he was
> seventy five. Buy age ninety-five he was working on his twelfth cottage,
> still trying to make it 'perfect.' Other anecdotes were cited.
>
> He said, in other words, people tend to live longer who continue to have a
> 'reason' to live. This need not relate to creativity as this thread is
> discussing it, i.e. creative genius. But I think creativity as manifested in
> the main, is of a more mundane variety (though no less beautiful.)
I have heard about similar research. For example, I have heard that there is a
correlation between long life and one's capability to recover from severe loss such
as the death of a child or spouse. It seems logical that if one feels driven by a
purpose, it might be easier to literally survive such trauma.
> >I certainly can't think of any neurological factors that would affect adult
> >creativity absent a specific disease process.
>
> Not necessarily neurological factors, but genetic factors that predispose
> toward cardiovascular problems could decrease peripheral blood flow to the
> brain, decreasing mental acuity. I would consider that to be within the
> parameters of 'normal aging. I would also suspect fluctuations in hormone
> levels can affect creativity. Think of the terms 'Frustration' and
> 'Sublimation.' I am again thinking of normal developmental changes in hormone
> levels. Not pathological. Another thing is perhaps the aging of the senses.
> Presbyopia is not condidered pathological. Question Is there a loss of
> creative stimulation correspondent to a dulling of visual acuity? I don't
> know. Just some random thoughts from an aging yuppie.
>
Well, according to Dychtwald's book -- which seems to be pretty damned solid
academically (e.g., it has fourteen pages listing research sources) -- only 5% of
people over the age of 65 suffer any significant mental impairment.
The idea that hormones may affect creativity is interesting. My understanding is
that testosterone affects aggressiveness. Perhaps there's a connection, at least
in men.
If a connection could be established, I suppose the cure would be as simple as
hormone therapy. Jeepers! I could get more creative and have bigger biceps too.
:-)
Personally speaking though, I think the stuff I write now is the best I've ever
written. My big problem is time -- I don't have much. When I was 22, I literally
worked on music all day long, five days a week (the other two days I worked for
money).
I can't do that now. Today I'm lucky if I can get in one full day a week on
creative stuff.
That makes a very big difference in the amount that I can produce. I'll bet the
same is true for a lot of people, including you.
--
Nick Delonas
Cult V
http://www.cultv.com
Don Holmes
>I didn't say people don't change as they get older. They certainly do. They become
>wiser. They do not become less creative.
I never said they become less creative. Creativity is only
one aspect of genius. Remember, this started out by you
saying that people should wait until they're older to write.
To which I said that many of the great geniuses of history
produced their best work before they were 30.
Genius has to do with creative output that is so startling
it is revolutionary in its effect. Geniuses tend to
revolutionize their field of endeavor, whether it's
Beethoven, Wagner, Lennon/McCartney, Einstein, Da Vinci,
Picasso, Dylan, Tesla or Edison. This kind of output
requires boldness, vision, energy and ambition, qualities
that young people have more of than old people do.
Nicholas Delonas
Don Holmes wrote:
> >I didn't say people don't change as they get older. They certainly do. They become
> >wiser. They do not become less creative.
>
> I never said they become less creative. Creativity is only
> one aspect of genius. Remember, this started out by you
> saying that people should wait until they're older to write.
Whoa! I NEVER said that and absolutely, positively do NOT think that at all.
Now I understand why you're reacting. We have a very big misunderstanding.
> To which I said that many of the great geniuses of history
> produced their best work before they were 30.
>
> Genius has to do with creative output that is so startling
> it is revolutionary in its effect. Geniuses tend to
> revolutionize their field of endeavor, whether it's
> Beethoven, Wagner, Lennon/McCartney, Einstein, Da Vinci,
> Picasso, Dylan, Tesla or Edison.
I agree with that.
> This kind of output
> requires boldness, vision, energy and ambition,
I agree with that.
> qualities
> that young people have more of than old people do.
I disagree with that with the possible exception of "ambition." I am indeed less
ambitious than I was, which in some ways is quite good. I'm now much more interested in
pleasing myself than in pleasing others. As a result, my writing is better than ever.
I just wish I had more free time.
Just to be clear: I believe all writers of every age should write, write, write, and
write some more. I am constantly encouraging my very talented eight-year old to write.
I have even brought her to three songwriting workshops so she could have her original
songs critiqued by pro-songwriters.
They were all blown away by her stuff, BTW. She's something of a songwriting prodigy
IMHO.
Pier 1
> How many 45-year-olds do you know who
>> young person's game.
>
>
Actually the second best record I ever produced (currently working on the
best<g>) was by Sloan Wainwright who I don't think i'm betraying to reveal is
over 40. It was her first album and it is wonderful. Sloan is sister to
Louden Wainwright and definitely got her share of the songwriting gene that
obviously runs in their family. I think there's a certain arrogance in youth
that pushes us to great heights sometimes, but I've seen too many wonderous
creations spawned by mid-life crisis to say that creativity only lives in the
young. 27 here BTW.
*******************************************************
Pier Giacalone
PERMANENT RECORDS Mastering/Recording Studio, NYC
24 Bit Mastering on Sonic Solutions
24 Track Hard Disk Recording
*******************************************************
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen
Pier 1 wrote:
>
> > How many 45-year-olds do you know who
> >> are burning with a passion to change the world? It's a
> >> young person's game.
> >
> >
>
> Actually the second best record I ever produced (currently working on the
> best<g>) was by Sloan Wainwright who I don't think i'm betraying to reveal is
Well I, for one, feel that I have more drive and ambition than I did
when I was 20. Not only that, but I have a very different perspective
and I'm interested in alot more than I was back then. It seems to me
(now don't start flaming me, guys!) that males start to dwindle in the
ambition area in their 40's and women, especially those who've been busy
raising a family, seem to find new life at the same age! Could be the
result of physical changes too, I suppose.
Irene Jackson
http://www.islandnet.com/~woloshen/ijackson.html
Nicholas Delonas
Eric Lee Green wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:14:53 GMT, Don Holmes <don.h...@nashville.com> wrote:
> >>I didn't say people don't change as they get older. They certainly do. They become
> >>wiser. They do not become less creative.
> >
> >I never said they become less creative. Creativity is only
>
> >requires boldness, vision, energy and ambition, qualities
> >that young people have more of than old people do.
>
> Hmm. Perhaps the young believe they can change the world, and the old
> have figured out that the world don't give a damn?
>
> BTW, I know that at least in my case creativity hasn't decreased with
> age. Hell, at 18 years old I was so busy trying to survive in this
> fucked up world we've made that I didn't have *TIME* to be creative.
>
> -- Eric
You mean you have more time now? Wow.
It was easier for me back then because I had no kids and I was perfectly happy living in a
rat-hole of an apartment. That meant I could get by with a part-time job and spend the
rest of the week working on music.
I'm quite certain however that, aside from the time issue, I'm just as creative now as I
was when I was twenty.
I think what happens with a lot of people is that they give up on "making it." If one's
only motivation is fame, then I can understand simply dropping creative writing or music.
I do know people who have done that. Besides, I think for many people, fame becomes less
and less attractive as they grow older.
Some of my colleagues think I'm completely crazy to have jumped back into the game with
such enthusiasm, especially since I was doing so well with my computer-software business.
But some things are more important than money. Let me rephase that: music has brought
some balance back into my life.
Participating in these songwriting workshops these last ten weeks has been way more fun
than anything I've ever done in business. I feel like I have a life again.
What we each want out of life definitely changes over the years. Personally, I'd love to
put together a diverse band with a mix of races, genders, and ages. Any takers out there?
OSSONGS
> It seems to me
>(now don't start flaming me, guys!) that males start to dwindle in the
>ambition area in their 40's and women, especially those who've been busy
>raising a family, seem to find new life at the same age! Could be the
>result of physical changes too, I suppose.
>
>Irene Jackson
Oh, right on the head of the nail ;-) Married as a teenager, five children up &
running - duties carried out to my best - now, I'm up, up and away...I hope :-)
Dolores
Nicholas Delonas
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen wrote:
> Pier 1 wrote:
> >
> > > How many 45-year-olds do you know who
> > >> are burning with a passion to change the world? It's a
> > >> young person's game.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Actually the second best record I ever produced (currently working on the
> > best<g>) was by Sloan Wainwright who I don't think i'm betraying to reveal is
> > over 40. It was her first album and it is wonderful. <snip>
>
> Well I, for one, feel that I have more drive and ambition than I did
> when I was 20. Not only that, but I have a very different perspective
> and I'm interested in alot more than I was back then. It seems to me
> (now don't start flaming me, guys!) that males start to dwindle in the
> ambition area in their 40's and women, especially those who've been busy
> raising a family, seem to find new life at the same age! Could be the
> result of physical changes too, I suppose.
>
More likely it's due to the fact that family duties, statistically speaking, impact
women more than men in this culture. For the most part, men have not had their
careers interrupted while many women have.
KIP117
Nick Delonas wrote:
>Well, according to Dychtwald's book -- which seems to be pretty damned solid
>academically (e.g., it has fourteen pages listing research sources) -- only
>5% of
>people over the age of 65 suffer any significant mental impairment.
Yes, I recall you said this in an earlier post. I'll betcha a case of
Moosehead that dychwald doesn't consider a loss in output or quality of
lyrics/poetry, etc, to be "significant." Probably didn't even make his list of
parameters.
>The idea that hormones may affect creativity is interesting. My
>understanding is
>that testosterone affects aggressiveness. Perhaps there's a connection, at
>least
>in men.
>
>If a connection could be established, I suppose the cure would be as simple
>as
>hormone therapy. Jeepers! I could get more creative and have bigger biceps
>too.
>:-)
>
>Personally speaking though, I think the stuff I write now is the best I've
>ever
>written. My big problem is time -- I don't have much. When I was 22, I
>literally
>worked on music all day long, five days a week (the other two days I worked
>for
>money).
>
>I can't do that now. Today I'm lucky if I can get in one full day a week on
>creative stuff.
>
>That makes a very big difference in the amount that I can produce. I'll bet
>the
>same is true for a lot of people, including you.
Yep!
I've also been wondering how the minds power to develop habits affects
creativity over the course of a lifetime. Do musicians get in the habit of
hitting the same licks? Do writers lean on the same phrases? Do certain
engrams become such well worn pathways that they fire predictibly, i.e. not
creatively?
I don't think we will find scientific answers to these questions because I
don't think the research has been done. But I'm not well read anymore. (I have
kids-I do homework)
Steve Denson
KIP117 wrote:
...
> hitting the same licks? Do writers lean on the same phrases? Do certain
> engrams become such well worn pathways that they fire predictibly, i.e. not
> creatively?
>
"Dianetics" and "A Brave New World" that I have also read ?
Issac Asimov, Larry Niven, Stephen King, Arthur C. Clark,
Peter Straub, George Orwell, Longfellow ? Anyone else ?
> don't think the research has been done. But I'm not well read anymore. (I have
> kids-I do homework)
>
You too ? My little boy is learning to read. It's tough.
--
Steve Denson
mailto:sde...@cisco.com
http://www.brouhaha.com/~sdenson
Each new generation's goal seems to be shocking the last.
KIP117
Steve Denson wrote:
>
>KIP117 wrote:
>...
>> hitting the same licks? Do writers lean on the same phrases? Do certain
>> engrams become such well worn pathways that they fire predictibly, i.e. not
>> creatively?
>>
>Is this from L.Ron Hubbard ? What else have you read besides
>"Dianetics" and "A Brave New World" that I have also read ?
Dianetics- no. Huxley-yes.
>Issac Asimov, Larry Niven
Yes
, Stephen King,-no, not much.
Arthur C. Clark,-yes
>Peter Straub,-no, in fact I've heard of him.
George Orwell, Longfellow ?-yes
Anyone else ? Sure. Where do I start? Come and see my library.
>
>> don't think the research has been done. But I'm not well read anymore. (I
>have
>> kids-I do homework)
>>
>You too ? My little boy is learning to read. It's tough.
I'm doing algebra again. Its like a twight zone episode of "Kip Skirpan's
Hell." Deep, deep sigh.
peachis...@ukonline.co.uk
I'm now 44 and I feel more capable of songwriting than ever. I think
attitude is the most important thing. Many people I know seem to want
to 'act a numerical age' for some strange reason.
Al Myers
>More likely it's due to the fact that family duties, statistically speaking, impact
>women more than men in this culture. For the most part, men have not had their
>careers interrupted while many women have.
>--
nospam...@axionet.com
Irene Jackson/Michael Woloshen wrote:
> Well I, for one, feel that I have more drive and ambition than I did
> when I was 20. Not only that, but I have a very different perspective
>
> and I'm interested in alot more than I was back then. It seems to me
> (now don't start flaming me, guys!) that males start to dwindle in the
>
> ambition area in their 40's and women, especially those who've been
> busy
> raising a family, seem to find new life at the same age! Could be the
>
> result of physical changes too, I suppose.
>
> Irene Jackson
> http://www.islandnet.com/~woloshen/ijackson.html
Napolean Hill, writing in the #1 business motivational book "Think and
Grow Rich" (the collected thoughts of billionaire Andrew Carenegie)
would disagree with your observation. According to Hill (Carnegie), few
men attain millionaire status before reaching the "maturation" age of
40. According to the book, this is the age that men mature emotionally
and intellectually.
Maybe you need to start associating with some different guys, Irene!