Adele vs. Carole King

[Gill Smith]

I never understood the success of "Tapestry" either

but we all do still know who Carole King is

I think that's as much down to her competence and dependability as
entertainer

you know she *will* turn up, look good, sing well, play well, won't forget
lines or embrarass herself and the audience with random non sequiturs, get
stroppy etc.

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Louise]

"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote in
news:IJidnddmAs2ElLfN...@brightview.co.uk:

> I never understood the success of "Tapestry" either
>
> but we all do still know who Carole King is

But Tapestry is a fantastic album even if we didn't know who Carole King is
- and I like Adele material too ;)

> I think that's as much down to her competence and dependability as
> entertainer

She's an excellent musician/singer/songwriter.

> you know she *will* turn up, look good, sing well, play well, won't
> forget lines or embrarass herself and the audience with random non
> sequiturs, get stroppy etc.
>
> --
> http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

So who does things like that?

Never heard Carole King or Adele do that - although Adele does have some
very strange and funny habit of swearing for no apparent reason, like when
she performed at the Royal Albert Hall, she suddenly up and exclaimed
before the entire audience: "Royal Albert F***ing Hall!!!" - it was both
weird and hysterical, and I tend to believe that might be why she did not
get to perform for the Olympics opening or closing ceremonies - probably in
fear of possible embarrassment if she suddenly were to have exclaimed
something like: "London 2012 Summer F***ing Olympics!!!" - but I'd have
loved it ;) because That time, it would be more than appropriate ;)

Ouisie

[rakman]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:32:15 PM UTC+1, Louise wrote:

> Never heard Carole King or Adele do that - although Adele does have some
>
> very strange and funny habit of swearing for no apparent reason, like when
>
> she performed at the Royal Albert Hall, she suddenly up and exclaimed
>
> before the entire audience: "Royal Albert F***ing Hall!!!" - it was both
>
> weird and hysterical, and I tend to believe that might be why she did not
>
> get to perform for the Olympics opening or closing ceremonies - probably in
>
> fear of possible embarrassment if she suddenly were to have exclaimed
>
> something like: "London 2012 Summer F***ing Olympics!!!" - but I'd have
>
> loved it ;) because That time, it would be more than appropriate ;)

lmao. what a classic. that was probably adele feeling happy for a split second
before going back to being a miserable cow :)

[Gill Smith]

"Louise" <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote in message
news:1sKdnVY4c9PS2LfN...@earthlink.com...

> So who does things like that?
>
> Never heard Carole King or Adele do that - although Adele does have some
> very strange and funny habit of swearing for no apparent reason, like when
> she performed at the Royal Albert Hall, she suddenly up and exclaimed
> before the entire audience: "Royal Albert F***ing Hall!!!" - it was both
> weird and hysterical, and I tend to believe that might be why she did not
> get to perform for the Olympics opening or closing ceremonies - probably
> in
> fear of possible embarrassment if she suddenly were to have exclaimed
> something like: "London 2012 Summer F***ing Olympics!!!" - but I'd have
> loved it ;) because That time, it would be more than appropriate ;)

can't help thinking it's the difference between someone who knows how lucky
she is

and someone who knows how talented she is

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Louise]

rakman <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ccc48f63-36d1-463d...@googlegroups.com:

> lmao. what a classic. that was probably adele feeling happy for a
> split second before going back to being a miserable cow :)

That's not a very nice thing to say about Adele - besides, I'm a BBW myself
;)

Ouisie

[Louise]

"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote in

news:1-ydnRs5o-U26rfN...@brightview.co.uk:

> can't help thinking it's the difference between someone who knows how
> lucky she is
>
> and someone who knows how talented she is
>
> --
> http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

And someone who knows both those things ;)

Ouisie

[rakman]

On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:05:10 AM UTC+1, Louise wrote:

> > lmao. what a classic. that was probably adele feeling happy for a
>
> > split second before going back to being a miserable cow :)
>
> That's not a very nice thing to say about Adele - besides, I'm a BBW myself
>
> ;)
>
>
>
> Ouisie

OK then, I take that back. Adele is always happy in her lyric
writing and always so positive. She'll never moan or complain
about anything, neither will Ryan Tedder. Plus, Joy Division were
the lightest, brightest, happiest band ever, a bit like the Osmonds.

Love Adele's voice btw.

[Gill Smith]

"Louise" <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote in message

news:g-SdnVTwCPyEa7fN...@earthlink.com...

and some have sufficient talent to be all but contemptuous of their audience

another reason I adored Amy Weinhouse

she was too talented to survive

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Louise]

rakman <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:60e46163-6917-44d9...@googlegroups.com:

> OK then, I take that back. Adele is always happy in her lyric
> writing and always so positive. She'll never moan or complain
> about anything, neither will Ryan Tedder. Plus, Joy Division were
> the lightest, brightest, happiest band ever, a bit like the Osmonds.

The Osmonds were a happy band? Their music was upbeat, but I'm not sure if
that's a sufficient indication ;) But Adele's "21" album is almost entirely
devoted to what we used to call doing a 'burn' over a failed relationship,
not all that happy to say the very least. Also, she mentioned in an
interview, that she's most motivated and inspired to write songs as the
result of less than happy circumstances - not a big surprise there though,
it's pretty much that way almost universally.

It was Adele's "21" album that inspired me to write a song on my own album;
"Opening A Channel", that's almost a sort of rebuttal to the reason(s) why
Adele wrote "21", namely poor judgment where personal relationships are
concerned.

I am somewhat of an Adele fan and plan to cover her "Rolling In The deep",
"I'll Be Waiting", her most rock & roll song so far, and possibly "Someone
Like You", which I like to refer to as "The Stalker Song" since that's
basically what it's about ;) But my song; "However Long It Takes" takes
issue with using poor judgment in relationships and the suffering that
results for far so many, not just Adele.

I do manage to include my little references - the title itself is basically
a kind of qualified restatment of "I'll Be Waiting", implying thet *I'll*
be waiting "However Long It Takes" to invest in a truly worthwhile
relationship rather than leaping without looking first, into whatever
semblance of a relationship that may happen to present itself. I also
compare the result of poor judgment in investing in less than promising
relationships to what happened to the Titanic, a British ship, by no
coincidence ;) and how it literally went "Rolling In The Deep", all the way
down for over 2 miles to the bottom of the ocean - a relationship, or
luxury liner, sunk by poor judgment ;)

> Love Adele's voice btw.

Me too - she can go a bit lower than I can, particularly on "Rumour Has
It", while I can go a bit higher - I'll just work around that the way she
does with the highs, just staying lower...so I'll just stay higher, no
problem. I really like her style and would just love the chance to
collaborate with her. Since she plays guitar and I play keyboards - I'll
bet we could really come with something, particularly since I'm a very
psychedelic hippie rebel rock & roller, and always looking to 'recruit' new
hippies so the older ones, like yours truly, won't be all there are
remaining ;) Besides, the music Desperately Needs it!!!

Ouisie

[Louise]

"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote in

news:-NWdnRXI0c6un7HN...@brightview.co.uk:

> and some have sufficient talent to be all but contemptuous of their
> audience

Why would anyone be comtemptuous of their audience?

> another reason I adored Amy Weinhouse
>
> she was too talented to survive
>
> --
> http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

I never got the chance to hear anything by Amy, but I'm going to have to
find a way since I've been hearing quite a bit about her.

But it seems difficult, to say the least, to understand that her talent
rather than over-boozing, to the extent of fatal acute alcohol poisoning,
would be attributable to her failure to surivie...similar notions have
also been implied regarding the demise of the late, great Phil Lynot,
lead vocalist, bassist, primary songwriter, and founding member of the
rock & roll band Thin Lizzy...one of my favorites, although they could
have used more keyboards ;)

Ouisie

[Gill Smith]

"Louise" <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote in message

news:HaednSeQp_kCN7DN...@earthlink.com...

strange how the death of Amy Weinhouse upset me - more than those of some
members of my own family

it was so sad to see phone videos of her last concert

tottering about in high heels on stage (in Serbia?), unable to perform,
sitting down, head in hands

you really *must* get broadaband access

it's Where It's At

all the hep/hip cats are there

Phil Lynot, OTOH, struck me as all attitude and little talent

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Pepe Papon]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:08:58 -0500, Louise <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote:

> Also, she mentioned in an
>interview, that she's most motivated and inspired to write songs as the
>result of less than happy circumstances - not a big surprise there though,
>it's pretty much that way almost universally.

It is? I don't believe that to be the case. Not among professional
writers, anyway.

[Pepe Papon]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:14:58 +0100, "Gill Smith"
<gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>I never understood the success of "Tapestry" either

It's a fantastic album.

[Louise]

Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:rbi638pbgs9tbmard...@4ax.com:

> It is? I don't believe that to be the case. Not among professional
> writers, anyway.

I was thinking in terms of writing from the heart rather than from the
wallet, as in commercial, where such 'professional' writers literally do
write commercials, and in fact, anything, any CRAP they're paid for. Even
Barry Manilow wrote commercials, such as for Coca-Cola and McDonald's.

Ouisie

[Louise]

"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote in

news:WZudnS_B-NrshqzN...@brightview.co.uk:

> strange how the death of Amy Weinhouse upset me - more than those of
> some members of my own family
>
> it was so sad to see phone videos of her last concert
>
> tottering about in high heels on stage (in Serbia?), unable to
> perform, sitting down, head in hands

At her last concert, she was unable to perform? That was a clue right
there.

> you really *must* get broadaband access
>
> it's Where It's At
>
> all the hep/hip cats are there

Eventually, someday - maybe when my album starts bringing in some
money...after I get it out there.

> Phil Lynot, OTOH, struck me as all attitude and little talent
>
> --
> http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

Phil Lynot was a great bass player, singer, and songwriter. Unfortunately
he was also great at overdoing it with the recreationsl substances as
well...usually several at once.

Ouisie

[Gill Smith]

"Pepe Papon" <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8di638p7r60kb56qh...@4ax.com...

be interesting to listen to it again

see if I still find the same faults with it

back then, I wasn't overly impressed by the songs, set the against the
fantastically inventive 3 min pop operas she and Gerry Goffin came up with

and I thought her piano accompaniment dire

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Pepe Papon]

I think this post expresses a misunderstanding of commercial
songwriting.

[Louise]

Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in

news:g77e385po15gqk1ol...@4ax.com:

> I think this post expresses a misunderstanding of commercial
> songwriting.

That's always possible, yet there's something inherently downright nasty
about that "C" word, at least in practice...which conjures up images of
Plastic Suits, Phonies, Pimps for their Whores, Selling Out, and general
Sleaze...all at the expense of Artistry, thanks to Perverse Motives, of
course.

Ouisie

[rakman]

On Friday, August 24, 2012 7:20:13 AM UTC+1, Pepe Papon wrote:

> I think this post expresses a misunderstanding of commercial
>
> songwriting.

How so?

[Pepe Papon]

In every possible way. A commercial song, by definition, is a song
that people want to buy. It's a song that people like. In order to
"write from the wallet", one must come up with something that appeals
to people very strongly. The most tried and true way to do that is
to write "from the heart".

One key difference between a commercial writer and a hobbyist is that
commercial writers have to continually create. They can't wait around
for inspiration, so they have to actively look for it on a frequent,
regular basis. That usually means writing all kinds of songs, from
the sad to downright silly.

Every pro writer that I've ever met is always striving to write
something great, which doesn't mean that they always succeed. The
constitution is so fierce that there's virtually no chance of success
without writing something great.

Everyone, of course, has their own concept of what's great. One
person's "great" is another person's "crap". SO, if you're hearing
"crap" on the radio, it just might be that you have a different
concept of "great" and "crap" from the people who create and enjoy
that sort of music.

[Louise]

Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in

news:ubbl38tq2l9mntm08...@4ax.com:

> In every possible way. A commercial song, by definition, is a song
> that people want to buy. It's a song that people like. In order to
> "write from the wallet", one must come up with something that appeals
> to people very strongly. The most tried and true way to do that is
> to write "from the heart".

Writing what's likable is always my objective, although trying to please
all of the people all of the time is not - that's what politicians, and
other Phonies are for ;) which is why I'm fond of saying that I only write
songs for those who like them, precisely because I always do write from the
heart ;)

> One key difference between a commercial writer and a hobbyist is that
> commercial writers have to continually create.

Then that's writing from the ulcer, or other stress-induced condition ;)

> They can't wait around
> for inspiration, so they have to actively look for it on a frequent,
> regular basis.

I don't wait for inspiration either, I either look for it, or in some cases
generate it myself, whatever works best. Inspiration is to music a lot like
airspeed is to flight, it's the relative relationship of having it that
counts and it matters not whether it comes along, or is pursued and
'caught', just so long as it's Sufficiently encountered ;)

> That usually means writing all kinds of songs, from
> the sad to downright silly.

I haven't tried any silly songs, yet - I wonder how one would go ;)

> Every pro writer that I've ever met is always striving to write
> something great, which doesn't mean that they always succeed. The
> constitution is so fierce that there's virtually no chance of success
> without writing something great.

Well, success and great do go together, so I'd venture to aspire similarly
myself, and I've already completed the writing of my first album, which is
a lyrics-related concept album, now to start the second album, which will
be based on a musical concept...it's going to be a very interesting
experiment.

> Everyone, of course, has their own concept of what's great. One
> person's "great" is another person's "crap". SO, if you're hearing
> "crap" on the radio, it just might be that you have a different
> concept of "great" and "crap" from the people who create and enjoy
> that sort of music.

I wouldn't say that - back some 40 years ago, there was mostly great music
on the radio, but today, it's mostly crap ;)
But I'm aiming to change that! It's my motivation for writing in the first
place - my only regret is that I waited at least 20 years longer than I
should have.

Ouisie

[rakman]

On Monday, August 27, 2012 12:44:44 AM UTC+1, Louise wrote:
>
> I haven't tried any silly songs, yet - I wonder how one would go ;)

Haha. I write tons of silly songs. A bit like someone asked
Frank Zappa to write a Justin Bieber song but then he couldn't
resist the temptation to ruin the song with satire lol.

[Louise]

rakman <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:5b7baf68-e85a-4032-8182-
b74434...@googlegroups.com:

> Haha. I write tons of silly songs. A bit like someone asked
> Frank Zappa to write a Justin Bieber song but then he couldn't
> resist the temptation to ruin the song with satire lol.

Zappa-esque songs are kind of difficult to call silly, maybe a little
weird, and Very psychedelic, and intense, and profound but the only sound
silly before giving them serious consideration - and satire is part of the
charm ;)

Ouisie

[rakman]

That post makes perfect sense. Thanks.

I do suspect, though, that people sometimes wanna be told pretty lies,
as opposed to what's in the other person's "heart", or brain.

IMO there are boundaries for what a person can and can't say, lyrically,
if they wanna get airplay, support etc and fit into a pop format.

[rakman]

On Monday, August 27, 2012 2:14:41 AM UTC+1, Louise wrote:

> Zappa-esque songs are kind of difficult to call silly, maybe a little
>
> weird, and Very psychedelic, and intense, and profound but the only sound
>
> silly before giving them serious consideration - and satire is part of the
>
> charm ;)

Who's flying the flag for "sardonic" (?) lyric writing THESE DAYS?
Struggling to think of an example. One or two songs by Eminem
maybe, if that.
Some rock bands have cynical lyrics, but in a fairly predictable and
non-challenging way?

[Louise]

rakman <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:c2626d34-85d9-4888...@googlegroups.com:

> Who's flying the flag for "sardonic" (?) lyric writing THESE DAYS?
> Struggling to think of an example. One or two songs by Eminem
> maybe, if that.
> Some rock bands have cynical lyrics, but in a fairly predictable and
> non-challenging way?

I don't think anyone's really doing it nowadays - because it requires
Thinking!

Ouisie

[Pepe Papon]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:44:44 -0500, Louise <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote:

>Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>news:ubbl38tq2l9mntm08...@4ax.com:
>
>> In every possible way. A commercial song, by definition, is a song
>> that people want to buy. It's a song that people like. In order to
>> "write from the wallet", one must come up with something that appeals
>> to people very strongly. The most tried and true way to do that is
>> to write "from the heart".
>
>Writing what's likable is always my objective, although trying to please
>all of the people all of the time is not - that's what politicians, and
>other Phonies are for ;) which is why I'm fond of saying that I only write
>songs for those who like them, precisely because I always do write from the
>heart ;)

A commercial writer would be foolish to try to please all of the
people all of the time. Part of commercial writing is knowing the
audience you're writing for.

I'm curious as to how you define "writing from the heart" and how you
believe that to be different from they way successful commercial
writers work.

>> One key difference between a commercial writer and a hobbyist is that
>> commercial writers have to continually create.
>
>Then that's writing from the ulcer, or other stress-induced condition ;)

If you mean that commercial writers are under pressure to produce,
then there's no argument. OTOH, most successful writers I know love
what they're doing so much that it doesn't enter into the writing
process much, if at all.

>> They can't wait around
>> for inspiration, so they have to actively look for it on a frequent,
>> regular basis.
>
>I don't wait for inspiration either, I either look for it, or in some cases
>generate it myself, whatever works best. Inspiration is to music a lot like
>airspeed is to flight, it's the relative relationship of having it that
>counts and it matters not whether it comes along, or is pursued and
>'caught', just so long as it's Sufficiently encountered ;)
>
>> That usually means writing all kinds of songs, from
>> the sad to downright silly.
>
>I haven't tried any silly songs, yet - I wonder how one would go ;)

A really *good* silly song is hard to pull off, IMO.

>> Everyone, of course, has their own concept of what's great. One
>> person's "great" is another person's "crap". SO, if you're hearing
>> "crap" on the radio, it just might be that you have a different
>> concept of "great" and "crap" from the people who create and enjoy
>> that sort of music.
>
>I wouldn't say that - back some 40 years ago, there was mostly great music
>on the radio, but today, it's mostly crap ;)

Funny thing is that, 40 years ago, my parents thought all the great
music I was listening to was crap.

Another funny thing is that, once upon a time, I thought most country
music was crap. Then I started learning to write it and realized how
great a lot of those songs really are.

But I still considered today's pop music to be crap. Then, a few
years ago, I started learning to write it. Guess what? A lot of
those songs are great. I just wasn't appreciating their greatness.

>But I'm aiming to change that! It's my motivation for writing in the first
>place - my only regret is that I waited at least 20 years longer than I
>should have.

If your plan is to change the music business, good luck with that.

[Pepe Papon]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT), rakman

People want to hear songs that touch them emotionally in one way or
another.

>IMO there are boundaries for what a person can and can't say, lyrically,
>if they wanna get airplay, support etc and fit into a pop format.

This is absolutely true. Many songs being written today have two
versions - the real version and the clean version that gets played on
the radio. Some songs are too edgy or over the top to ever be
played on the radio. Those songs need to be marketed in other ways.

[Louise]

Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in

news:qfgo38d1gurmo1hv5...@4ax.com:

> A commercial writer would be foolish to try to please all of the
> people all of the time. Part of commercial writing is knowing the
> audience you're writing for.

Precisely how they go about obtaining that knowledge would be very
interesting to say the least...but I somehow keep getting the idea that
they do it by looking at statistics.

> I'm curious as to how you define "writing from the heart" and how you
> believe that to be different from they way successful commercial
> writers work.

To me, writing from the heart means being profoundly moved, often if not
usually in a conviction-oriented way, to write while I suspect that
commercial writing would tend be much more based on statistical analyses,
studies, surveys, and in general, a more mechanized, mass production,
industrialized Depersonalized approach.

> If you mean that commercial writers are under pressure to produce,
> then there's no argument.

That's what I mean - I like to call it "pressure cooker creativity" - NO
FUN!

> OTOH, most successful writers I know love
> what they're doing so much that it doesn't enter into the writing
> process much, if at all.

Lots of people working at high-stress jobs love what they're doing,
particularly if they're being well-paid for it, even as it's killing
them, and being professionals, they keep that stress out of being
reflected in their work, because they keep it all within themselves,
where it gets pent up until one day they explode ;)

Or to put it another, rhymingly lyrical way;
"It's No Fun Under the Gun";)

Maybe I ought to write a song about that ;)

> A really *good* silly song is hard to pull off, IMO.

Undoubtedly, because a really *good* ANY kind of song takes a lot of
serious effort.

> Funny thing is that, 40 years ago, my parents thought all the great
> music I was listening to was crap.

Perhaps, but did they provide examples of something better?

> Another funny thing is that, once upon a time, I thought most country
> music was crap. Then I started learning to write it and realized how
> great a lot of those songs really are.

I think country music was best in the 1960s, because it had a better rock
& roll influence, that is, it was more unique and less uniform than it is
today.

> But I still considered today's pop music to be crap.

There a few 'pop' songs I really like, to the point where I'd like to
cover them, but of course, being a rock & roller, I'd tend to rock & roll
them a bit more than the original recording.

> Then, a few
> years ago, I started learning to write it. Guess what? A lot of
> those songs are great. I just wasn't appreciating their greatness.

Some of those 'pop' songs are great, I'd just do them with a stronger
rock & roll influence.

> If your plan is to change the music business, good luck with that.

Thanks much for that, I'm going to need it, because that's my plan! ;)

Ouisie

[rakman]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:49:59 PM UTC+1, Louise wrote:

> Precisely how they go about obtaining that knowledge would be very
>
> interesting to say the least...but I somehow keep getting the idea that
>
> they do it by looking at statistics.

There's always some common ground between different people.
Most of us like food and stuff.
Ouisie and Weezy is practically the same name, so you are a rapper, kinda.
Maybe u both have tattoos :)

> To me, writing from the heart means being profoundly moved, often if not
>
> usually in a conviction-oriented way, to write while I suspect that
>
> commercial writing would tend be much more based on statistical analyses,
>
> studies, surveys, and in general, a more mechanized, mass production,
>
> industrialized Depersonalized approach.

Not necessarily. A natural performer might feel differently ,but
for me personally most of my fondest memories of music are as
a music fan/consumer. Hearing a good song on the radio,
buying an album, going to a concert, dancing to a song etc.

So from that perspective what I'm feeling when I write a song
is way less important than how I feel when I'm listening back to it,
and consequently how others feel when they're listening to it.

Also, again this might be different for other people, but for me the
best feelings I get from music are "love" feelings, joy, exuberance etc,
or "this song makes me feel like I'm the coolest person on earth".
I have no idea whether this is real or fake, from the heart or total escapism,
but I want it. A person who's had a string of bad relationships still
wants songs about perfect love, the story isn't really from the heart
as in being truthful, but the WISH for perfection, happiness, love, money etc
IS from the heart. For most people. I hope.

[Louise]

rakman <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:85a75a5b-a0ee-4438...@googlegroups.com:

> There's always some common ground between different people.
> Most of us like food and stuff.

But it's the differences that make it interesting ;)

> Ouisie and Weezy is practically the same name, so you are a rapper,
> kinda. Maybe u both have tattoos :)

No, I'm not a rapper, not even a little! I'm a hippie rock & roller, with
no tattoos either ;)

> Not necessarily. A natural performer might feel differently ,but
> for me personally most of my fondest memories of music are as
> a music fan/consumer. Hearing a good song on the radio,
> buying an album, going to a concert, dancing to a song etc.

My fondest memories of music are when I'd get down and really jam with my
band to the point that it became an Orgasmically Awesome Musical
Lovemaking experience, because I made the effort to learn to play,
because I was so deeply moved by all the Great music I had heard on the
the albums I bought, on the radio, and on television shows like The
Midnight Special, Don Kirshner's Rock Concert, and ABC's In Concert -
when music was really worth listening to, and so amazingly inspiring,
that I knew I just couldn't continue to merely listen to it anymore, I
Had to actually Make it myself!!!

In other words, I owe that great music, almost dead from Decades of
Neglect, and in Dire Need of Rescue, a debt of gratitude and Support for
my having become a musician in the first place, which is precisely why I
wrote the album "Opening A Channel"...which is currently headed for the
recording stage...then the performing stage, because that's the only kind
of concert I truly enjoy going to, when I have the very best seat in the
house, onstage behind the keyboards!!!

> So from that perspective what I'm feeling when I write a song
> is way less important than how I feel when I'm listening back to it,
> and consequently how others feel when they're listening to it.

That may very well be, but some kind of correlation is important too, in
order to effectively direct writing efforts in such a manner as to result
in good feelings when listing to it.

> Also, again this might be different for other people, but for me the
> best feelings I get from music are "love" feelings, joy, exuberance
> etc, or "this song makes me feel like I'm the coolest person on
> earth". I have no idea whether this is real or fake, from the heart or
> total escapism, but I want it.

It's TOTALLY REAL!!!
Oh, my gosh! You're into what I call the Love-In experience, too! That is
SOOOO COOOOOOOL!!!
I'm always saying that Making Music IS Making Love!
Because it's Absolutely True!
Isn't it Thoroughly AWESOME?
It's why I LOVE to jam, I LOVE it! I WANT it, and I NEED it too!!!

> A person who's had a string of bad
> relationships still wants songs about perfect love, the story isn't
> really from the heart as in being truthful, but the WISH for
> perfection, happiness, love, money etc IS from the heart. For most
> people. I hope.

It's the Idealism that's from the heart, and I 'specialize' in being an
Idealist - been doing it my entire life ;)

Ouisie

[Pepe Papon]

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:49:58 -0500, Louise <oui...@ouisie.com> wrote:

>Pepe Papon <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>news:qfgo38d1gurmo1hv5...@4ax.com:
>
>> A commercial writer would be foolish to try to please all of the
>> people all of the time. Part of commercial writing is knowing the
>> audience you're writing for.
>
>Precisely how they go about obtaining that knowledge would be very
>interesting to say the least...but I somehow keep getting the idea that
>they do it by looking at statistics.

They do it by knowing the style they're writing in. A country writer
knows country music. A pop writer knows pop music. A rock writer
knows rock music. And so on.

>> I'm curious as to how you define "writing from the heart" and how you
>> believe that to be different from they way successful commercial
>> writers work.
>
>To me, writing from the heart means being profoundly moved, often if not
>usually in a conviction-oriented way, to write while I suspect that
>commercial writing would tend be much more based on statistical analyses,
>studies, surveys, and in general, a more mechanized, mass production,
>industrialized Depersonalized approach.

No commercial writer I've ever heard of looks at any sort of
statistics when they're writing. I have no idea what a mechanized,
mass production, industrialized, depersonalized approach to writing a
song would even look like. You try to write a song that you like and
that you think others would like. Of course, you have to take certain
things into account, such as whether or not the song will be
acceptable for radio play and, if you're an outside writer, what
current artists might want to sing the song.

>> If you mean that commercial writers are under pressure to produce,
>> then there's no argument.
>
>That's what I mean - I like to call it "pressure cooker creativity" - NO
>FUN!

Professional writing is a job. That doesn't automatically make it
not fun.

>> OTOH, most successful writers I know love
>> what they're doing so much that it doesn't enter into the writing
>> process much, if at all.
>
>Lots of people working at high-stress jobs love what they're doing,
>particularly if they're being well-paid for it, even as it's killing
>them, and being professionals, they keep that stress out of being
>reflected in their work, because they keep it all within themselves,
>where it gets pent up until one day they explode ;)

Most professional songwriters aren't all that well-paid. It's not a
job people get into for the money. They do it because they love
writing songs. If you're in it for the money, you'd be better off
selling insurance.

>Or to put it another, rhymingly lyrical way;
>"It's No Fun Under the Gun";)
>
>Maybe I ought to write a song about that ;)
>
>> A really *good* silly song is hard to pull off, IMO.
>
>Undoubtedly, because a really *good* ANY kind of song takes a lot of
>serious effort.

I can write a really good regular song a lot more easily than a really
good silly one.

>> Funny thing is that, 40 years ago, my parents thought all the great
>> music I was listening to was crap.
>
>Perhaps, but did they provide examples of something better?

Of course. *THEIR* music was *REAL* music. You know, the stuff they
grew up with.

>> Another funny thing is that, once upon a time, I thought most country
>> music was crap. Then I started learning to write it and realized how
>> great a lot of those songs really are.
>
>I think country music was best in the 1960s, because it had a better rock
>& roll influence, that is, it was more unique and less uniform than it is
>today.

Today, we have traditional country, rock country, and pop country. How
is it more uniform than in previous decades?

>> But I still considered today's pop music to be crap.
>
>There a few 'pop' songs I really like, to the point where I'd like to
>cover them, but of course, being a rock & roller, I'd tend to rock & roll
>them a bit more than the original recording.

Of course. When doing cover songs, it's always a good idea to create
a new take on it.

>> Then, a few
>> years ago, I started learning to write it. Guess what? A lot of
>> those songs are great. I just wasn't appreciating their greatness.
>
>Some of those 'pop' songs are great, I'd just do them with a stronger
>rock & roll influence.
>
>> If your plan is to change the music business, good luck with that.
>
>Thanks much for that, I'm going to need it, because that's my plan! ;)

Many before you have tried and failed. You may succeed, but don't
set yourself up for disappointment. If you want to change the
business, the best way to start is to learn and understand the way it
works now.