Open Mouthpieces - Tenor Saxophone
Clinton Dell
What is the difference between using an open mouthpiece and a soft reed;
and using a closed mouthpiece and a hard reed?
I'm currently using a medium open metal mouthpiece for tenor saxophone,
a Berg Larsen SMS 110/2 with medium hard reeds. As far as sound
production goes, I'm fairly happy - I can manage three octaves (and
a bit) reliably, in tune, with varied articulations and power under
control.
I would like to be able to produce better the lowest tones at low
volumes, but this shortcoming doesn't prevent me from expressing myself.
My problem lies basically in tone quality; I would like to sound a tad
fuller and rounder, somewhere in between Ernie Watts, Joshua Redman and
Bob Mintzer. Throw in Ken Holmen too (listen to him blow up a storm
on http://www.bitstream.net/hornheads/samples.html, "Interrupting Cow"!)
Right now I'm (soundwise, of course) around Michael Brecker in the
1970's - on the bright side; great for fusion or an obnoxious blues with
the big band (and no microphone), but a little too hard for ballads,
standards or swing.
What I haven't seriously tried yet is changing setup - to softer reeds
and a more open mouthpiece. The problem with the more open combinations
I have tried is that either the lower register doesn't work at all
because the reed is too hard, or I lose at least a half octave up top
and a lot of volume as well because its too soft. I can't find a soft
reed strength and an appropriate opening that'll give me both a
responsive bottom end and volume up top.
Is this something that'll come with practise, and/or careful reed
selection? What do you open mouthpeice users use for reeds? By open I
mean anything wider than an Otto Link 7 (0.110 inch or more).
Since mouthpieces are expensive, and I need about 6 months to evaluate
what I can do with a new model, I thought a little advice from the net
might help me choose an opening before I waste some money.
Any ideas?
Cheers
Clinton
PS:
According to rumour, Watts plays an Otto Link 10 with a sound as
big as a house! How does he do it? Rico Royal 0.25? Bionic
implants? Maybe he had his throat widened surgically? ;-)
However you slice it, you can't beat his fullness of tone!
morten halle
Clinton Dell <etx...@aom.ericsson.se> skriver:
Noah Osnos
> According to rumour, Watts plays an Otto Link 10 with a sound as
> big as a house! How does he do it? Rico Royal 0.25? Bionic
> implants? Maybe he had his throat widened surgically? ;-)
>
> However you slice it, you can't beat his fullness of tone!
I'm not incredibly well versed with facings. I'm working with an Otto Link
5* rubber, and I figure I need to spend a lot of time working on technique
before I start really futzing with mouthpieces. My teacher *does* think I
should move to a metal piece of the opening you describe (metal link 7*),
so I will eventually do this. The point I'm getting to is that I recently
heard Ernie Watts play (I love his sound, too) with his quartet (as well as
the Quartet West). I asked him about his setup and he uses FibreCell
reeds!! That's right, he uses plastic. I have started using the Bari
(Star) plastic reeds and I really like them. Always ready to play, the
don't warp, consistent, etc. I also have the KlearKane which I'm just
getting used to, so I can't give a definitive opinion yet.
Terry Landry
Clinton---
EXCELLENT question, man! I always address the issue of open mouthpiece/
soft reed combinations in my clinics.
First, let me state that lots of guys sound fantastic on all kinds of set
ups that I consider messed up. I.e., you can do anything on any setup if
you put your mind to it. But, for maximum comfort and consistency, I always
recommend an aerodynamically sound mouthpiece (i.e., open chamber, like a
Link) in a 6-8 range, with a medium strength reed (3 or 3 1/2). Why?
Because reeds are gauged according to hardness, not thickness. Reedmaking
machines spit out several hundred reeds per hour, and they will all be
different strengths, but the exact same thickness in the cut. This is
because they are gauged by being bent a preset distance, and the amount of
force necessary to bend the reed that distance is measured and translated
into a strength. So a number 2 is just as thick as a number 5 coming off
the same machine; the number 2 is a SOFTER PIECE OF WOOD to begin with.
Since it softer to begin with, it will die quicker and be less consistent
while it is in use, and less consistent from reed to reed.
I recommend getting a mouthpiece that allows you to play a number 3 or 3
1/2 reed.
A Link 6, 7, or 8, Berg 105-115 over 3 (the Berg's most open chamber), or,
best of all if you can afford the $350 price tag, a Phil Barone custom like
Ernie Watts plays. I played a Link 8* on tenor until Phil made me his Jazz
model in an 8. It's FANTASTIC.
Part of the problem you experience in the low register is due to the 2
chamber on your Berg. Your 110/2 is an excellent piece, and many famous
players gravitate toward that particluar configuration on Bergs. My
experience, however, is that chambers more open than your 2 (not to be
confused with open tips) give you the fatness of tone and low end response
you're looking for. For you, I recommend a Berg 110 or 115 over 3, a LInk
7* or 8* (NOT the recent "New York" model), or, best of all, a Phil Barone
New York model in a 110 or 115. Phil's # is (212) 686-9410.
Try a Rico JAZZ 3 or Rico Select JAZZ 3Soft or 3Medium with any of the
above. They were designed around large chambered mouthpieces like Links to
allow you to get massive projection out of a darker, fuller sounding
mouthpiece.
You'll need to blow a large chamber differently. Right now, you've got a
bright mouthpiece that you blow on the low side of the tone to get the
fullness. When you switch to a dark mouthpiece, it'll take some time to
learn how to blow on the top or bright side of the tone. But once you learn
this, you get all the power and projection you're used to, but without the
volatility on the bottom end of the horn, and with a much fatter sound and
better flexibility, because you'll be playing what is generally regarded by
pros as correctly.
Keep after it; it takes awhile but you'll get it!
Bernie T
Terry Landry wrote:
>
> Clinton---
> EXCELLENT question, man! I always address the issue of open mouthpiece/
> soft reed combinations in my clinics.
>
> First, let me state that lots of guys sound fantastic on all kinds of set
> ups that I consider messed up. I.e., you can do anything on any setup if
> you put your mind to it. But, for maximum comfort and consistency, I always
> recommend an aerodynamically sound mouthpiece (i.e., open chamber, like a
> Link) in a 6-8 range, with a medium strength reed (3 or 3 1/2). Why?
>
> Because reeds are gauged according to hardness, not thickness. Reedmaking
Terry: I enjoyed your article .It was very informative. Would you mind
commenting on the following:
Last year at a Musician's Union garage sale here in Toronto I picked up
from an elderly retired musician an old Bobby Dukoff, Metal, D8.(Tenor)
The mouthpiece must be at least 25 years old. I have been fooling around
with it and in combination with Rico 2 to 3 reeds I can get a nice full
fat sound in the middle but the top takes a lot to get in tune. The low C
to Bb speak fairly easily but the tone quality between Bb (low) and F
first space has a hollow edge to it that is not musical-jazz-sound-wise.
It's almost like a factory noise ! I exaggerate of course. Maybe you know
what I mean ? Maybe if I keep working at it I can bring it around.
However I like your comment about Moutpiece/reed combinations should be
able to allow you to achieve your tonal image with a maximum amount of
comfort in all ranges producing the desired result. Sorry if my
paraphrase is off.
My question: Is this old Bobby Dukoff worth the trouble or should I jump
to your advice re the Larsen/Link/Barone suggestions you made ? Assuming
that the sound goal that I am pursuing is somewhere in the Lew
Tabakin-Benny Wallace kind of area.
Bernie Turcotte
Bernie T
Terry:
The question I forgot to ask....in my previous post. With
what current moutpiece openness would you compare this Dukoff D8 of many
years ago in terms of today's mouthpieces. How would it differ from some
of the open mouthpieces that you and others are speaking of ?
Bernie T
Bob Riching
I'm playing a Berg 120/2 with a 2 1/2 reed and feel like I have to
work to hard to blow the low notes. Should I look into a smaller
opening ,say a 110 or 115 or a smaller or larger chamber? I think I'm
looking for more resistance; there seems to be too much air blowing
before I get to the tone. I've got a C** and #3 reed on alto and this
feels pretty good although not really very powerful. I just would like
to sound like Harold Land, that's all...Thanks.
susanne beutler
Morton Halle wrote:
> Play some long notes and scalein the lower fifth of your instrument >mezzopiano for some weeks, and see what happens!!
Motion seconded.
Because my schedule is absurdly busy, I often find my best practice time
to be late at night. I have to practice at an extremely low volume, yet
I make certain to maintain a nice full sound. As a result, I've found
that my control, especially in the lower register, to be markedly
improved (and my neighbors are still talking to me, so far).
Eric Marienthal in Saxophone Digest wrote about doing this when he is on
the road, with similar results.
susanne
Mazel Gregg
I will give you guys a big secret... All the big tone tenor players used big mouthpieces. When I got my first Link 10* when I was 16, I used to get lip bleeds and stomachaches. You will overcome this in 3 to 4 weeks if you persevere... Also, play the bottom of the horn first when you warm up... I am playing a 9* or 10 most of the time now. I maintain by playing several gigs per week and/or daily 1 hour warmup.
-Gregg (saxophonist for 26 years)
-------------------------------------
Name: Gregg Mazel
E-mail: Gregg Mazel <g...@uriacc.uri.edu>
Date: 01/27/97
Time: 19:35:15
-------------------------------------
Mel
In article <01bc0a2a$4c5563e0$2078...@lefonk.ricoreeds.com>, "Terry Landry" <LeF...@ricoreeds.com> says:
>
>Clinton---
>EXCELLENT question, man! I always address the issue of open mouthpiece/
>soft reed combinations in my clinics.
>
is something else! What do you think of a Lawton 7BB (stainless steel model) with
Java 2 1/2 reeds for tenor?
Regards,
Mel Garcia
Rick Boyer
Clinton Dell <etx...@aom.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Any ideas?
>Cheers
>Clinton
>PS:
> According to rumour, Watts plays an Otto Link 10 with a sound as
> big as a house! How does he do it? Rico Royal 0.25? Bionic
> implants? Maybe he had his throat widened surgically? ;-)
> However you slice it, you can't beat his fullness of tone!
Here's a question for ya....do the guys who write the checks that pay
you for your gigs complain????? No? Then don't change a thing.
What's wrong with M, Brecker's mid '70's sound? I give my left --- to
get that sound, and I'm pretty close now! Seriously, you ought to
try looking at a mouthpiece with a step that begins to flare out
towards the body sooner. The longer the step stays constant, and
doesn't start to lessen, the brighter the sound. Also, you might
consider that you will sound like you on any mouthpiece you play
through. The longer you play on any one, the more similar you'll
sound compared to every other one. I don't know why...it just works
that way. Probably 'cause about half your sound comes from the shape
of your throat and palate. Hope that helps.
Wade Johnson
Hi Rick:
If there is one thing I know, it's that I don't know anything
for sure when it comes to mouthpiece selection..no..I know I
envy those that find the ideal mouthpiece for themselves and
stop searching.. I talked to an Old Sage, a wonderful player
in his 70's who heard I had a Rovner and he wanted to come by
and try it..this man has been been "playing" saxophone for
more than 60 years..
I can buy a mouthpiece and try it for a reasonable amount of
time..discard it into the box labeled "Wade's Mistakes". A
year later take it out and have it be the one I was looking
for all year..Drives me crazy..Open/Closed/soft/hard...it's
endless..for me.
My advice is find one you can live with and stop the endless
quest..BTW, I'll be glad when the rubber tenor Link 7* gets
here I ordered last week. I'll let you know how it works
out..the NY model was to homogenous..<g>
Wade
Mike Maida
Hmmm...Trane played on an Otto Link 5* and was the loudest sax player that Miles
ever heard. His sound may not cut too well with electric instruments, but I
personally love his tone. The tip openings have changed over the years, but that
would be somewhere around .085."
I've heard local players who get a nice big, straight-ahead sound with Link or
Hollywood Dukoff mpc's in the 5-6 range.
Yet some posters claim you need an opening more of than .110." Perhaps we ought to
take that with a few grains of salt.
Mike
Jason Wymore
setup. Not Fibracell, Fibercane. The company went out of business years
ago, but Ernie bought out the last of their stock, and doesn't know what
he's going to do when he runs out of the 200 or so reeds he has left. He
was the featured clinician at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee last
spring, and we grilled him in a masterclass.
Paul Lindemeyer
ma...@galaxy.nsc.com (Mike Maida) wrote:
I right now am on the horns of a similar dilemma. My preferred tenor
setup is a metal Berg 115/2 with Rico Royal 2-1/2s. However, I don't
just want to play metal all the time, especially in the cold months, so
I have been using a rubber Link 6 lately (quite a bit closer than the
Berg).
Here's the problem: there are *no* good reeds for me on the Link 6.
Every one is either too soft or too hard, particularly in the lower
register. Should I look into a more open rubber piece? Or might the
problem be something else? For instance, the lay seems a bit short,
which I know can contribute to low-range problems.
What piece was Sonny Rollins playing in the '50s and '60s? Talk about a
big rich sound...
--
Paul Lindemeyer (pau...@gannett.infi.net)
_______________________________________________________
CELEBRATING THE SAXOPHONE: An Illustrated History
At your local bookseller from William Morrow & Co.
Terry Landry
Try both: a larger chamber (3) AND a smaller tip (110-ish). You'll be able
to comfortably put more air through the horn on the low end. Smaller
chambers ALWAYS result in low end volatility.
Bob Riching <Richi...@mm.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com> wrote in article
<32E9FD...@mm.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com>...
bbb...@sheltonlink.com
In <32EFD0...@gannett.infi.net>, Paul Lindemeyer <pau...@gannett.infi.net> writes:
>Here's the problem: there are *no* good reeds for me on the Link 6.
>Every one is either too soft or too hard, particularly in the lower
>register. Should I look into a more open rubber piece? Or might the
>problem be something else? For instance, the lay seems a bit short,
>which I know can contribute to low-range problems.
Sounds like you need a clipper and sandpaper to me.
BBB
B.B. Bean bbb...@sheltonlink.com
Peach Orchard, MO http://www.cris.com/~Bbbean
Music: http://www.cris.com/~Bbbean/Music.shtml
Ag: http://www.cris.com/~Bbbean/agri.shtml
Bob Riching
Have you tried sanding a hard reed ? With extra fine sand paper you
can salvage some you might otherwise toss. I'm not real up to speed
on the methodology but have had some good results just brushing with
the grain a little, or shaving a little off the edges. Ditto on Sonny
Rollins' tone! Full through the whole range. I think he uses a Rico
#2 now? And what does Brecker use anyway?
Terry Landry
Mel---
Thanks, glad to be helpful. Lawton makes an excellent piece, I use a brass
8*B on my bari. But bari is a different animal, and seems to mandate a
smaller chamber more than the smaller horns. Also, the "double B"
designation means the baffle is extremely high. In order to get a full
sound on this piece, you're blowing on the bottom side of the tone.
I prefer to get a rich sounding mouthpiece (like a Link on tenor), pair it
with a Rico JAZZ or Rico Select JAZZ reed, and play on the top side of the
tone. This way, you can comfortably meet all the demands put on the modern
saxophonist. You'll no longer have volatility problems on the low end, and
with practice you'll get every bit of power and projection that you only
thought you were getting with your bright mouthpiece. Choose a mouthpiece
that works well with a 3 or 3/12 for best results.
Mel Garcia <Mel Gar...@hp-corvallis.om.hp.com> wrote in article
<5cho2p$8...@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com>...
Terry Landry
Paul Lindemeyer <pau...@gannett.infi.net> wrote in article >... Yet some
posters claim you need an opening more of than .110." Perhaps we ought to
> > take that with a few grains of salt.
... Here's the problem: there are *no* good reeds for me on the Link 6.
> Every one is either too soft or too hard, particularly in the lower
> register. Should I look into a more open rubber piece? Or might the
> problem be something else? For instance, the lay seems a bit short,
> which I know can contribute to low-range problems.
Paul---
Rico JAZZ and Rico Select JAZZ were designed for Links.
Also, any mouthpiece over .115 will virtually mandate (for most players, at
least) use of a 2 1/2 reed or softer. I always counsel to choose a
mouthpiece on which one can comfortably play a reed no softer than a 3;
preferably a 3 or 3 1/2.
My apologies to those who have read this same recomendation from me before,
but:
reeds are gauged according to hardness, not thickness. A #2 is not thinner
than a #5, it is made of a softer piece of wood. Since it is softer to
begin with, it loses its strength more quickly; hence it is less consistent
during play life, and has a shorter play life.
Terry
SybrJock
Terry Landry Wrote:
>Also, any mouthpiece over .115 will virtually mandate (for most players,
at
>least) use of a 2 1/2 reed or softer.
Not So! I play a Beechler stainless steel piece and have problems with
anything softer than a Plasticover 3
My 2 bits
Chris Wilson
sybr...@aol.com
mjwi...@e4e.oac.uci.edu
http://members.aol.com/sybrjock/
"I could do that, but I don't wanna" -Bart Simpson
SybrJock
my bad, i didn't mention that the mouthpiece has a 120 opening
-Chris
Tim Teagarden
Clinton Dell <etx...@aom.ericsson.se> wrote:
>What is the difference between using an open mouthpiece and a soft reed;
>and using a closed mouthpiece and a hard reed?
>I would like to be able to produce better the lowest tones at low
>Any ideas?
>Cheers
>Clinton
Clinton,
No short cuts, it just takes time. To get darker, you've got to go
more open and softer reeds. I remember people telling me about guys
playing 1 1/2 reeds on tenors with wide open mouthpieces. I just
bought a new tenor from Woodwind and had them mail me about 6
mouthpieces with it. I may not keep any of them. One can iteerally
spend all day trying mouthpieces and at the end buying something they
won't like in a month (like you said).
Keep working on it, you'll find a setup you like!
Terry Landry
Tim Teagarden <tteag...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
> Clinton,
> No short cuts, it just takes time.
TL>Absolutely correct.
To get darker, you've got to go
> more open and softer reeds.
TL>Absolutely incorrect. Refer to my earlier postings to this regard.
Jeff Kopmanis
Tim Teagarden wrote:
> Clinton Dell <etx...@aom.ericsson.se> wrote:
> >What is the difference between using an open mouthpiece and a soft reed;
> >and using a closed mouthpiece and a hard reed?
The eternal question/debate/religious argument...
[opinions expressed here are my own, and work for me, so take 'em or
leave 'em]
I play on a Runyon Custom Spoiler with a #10 tip opening and VanDoren #1
Java reeds...my sound is just bitey enough to play lead, but sweet and
juicy enough to blend in if I don't push it. The Runyon seems to have a
few places where its croaky and a few that are out of tune, but because
it characteristically appears on soprano alto and tenor, I'm going to
say its NOT the reed setup.
I've also tried a similar arrangement on a Dukoff 8S with VERY similiar
sounds, although I have to pump alot more air through the Dukoff to get
it to sound nice.
I don't want to put down your Link, but I've always found them to be
very "twitchy" and tempermental, as well as exceedingly dark. I've
found that setting up for a paint-peeler (small chamber, high-baffle,
Runyon-Spoilers) and then going super-soft on the reeds gives a very
nice sound. (It's also quite fun to see a friend's reaction when they
hear what sound comes out of it when he puts his hard reed on
it...YIKES!!)
I find that the Runyons are not as free-blowing, but take less air to
get the same thing...
My setup has one BIG advantage over the hard/closed setups:
Duration...mine that is. I've played 5 hour gigs and felt good enough to
play another five without flinching.
I switched setups about 3 years ago and have never regretted it for a
second. However, it *did* take a little getting used to, but it really
wasn't that hard, since it the setup was alot easier on my mouth.
> >What I haven't seriously tried yet is changing setup - to softer reeds
> >and a more open mouthpiece. The problem with the more open combinations
> >I have tried is that either the lower register doesn't work at all
> >because the reed is too hard, or I lose at least a half octave up top
> >and a lot of volume as well because its too soft. I can't find a soft
> >reed strength and an appropriate opening that'll give me both a
> >responsive bottom end and volume up top.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say its the mouthpiece that is doing
that to you. I have good response on top and bottom equally. However,
there are 2 things to watch out for... biting off the top (getting too
excited and chomping), and INTONATION. With a soft reed setup, you can
vary your pitch by as much as a whole tone without fingering
anything....BEWARE and take time out with a tuner to get used to this.